Ben Lippen Podcast
Welcome to the Ben Lippen Podcast, where we explore life’s challenges through the lens of Biblical truth and expert advice. We aim to equip families with practical, faith-centered tools for today’s world. Tune in for inspiring conversations that encourage and strengthen your walk in faith!
Ben Lippen Podcast
Where the Rubber Meets the Road
Dr. Ben Mathew returns to conclude our five-part series on racial reconciliation with a powerful synthesis of biblical teaching and practical wisdom. Rather than diving into political talking points, we ground our conversation in scripture's grand narrative—from creation to revelation—exploring how God's design for a diverse human family unfolds.
The journey begins with the Imago Dei, establishing our primary identity as image-bearers before any racial or ethnic distinction. Through the lens of Genesis 11 and Acts 2, we witness God's judgment through language division at Babel contrasted with his redemptive work through language unification at Pentecost. Most significantly, Revelation reveals Christ's sacrifice specifically ransomed people "from every tribe, language, people and nation"—diversity that brings God glory like a symphony of distinct instruments playing in harmony.
When discussing evangelical unity, Dr. Mathew emphasizes holding core Gospel truths with conviction while approaching secondary matters with charity. His practical advice for building cross-cultural relationships starts simply: "Ask people to tell their stories." This human connection builds relational equity that can eventually support more challenging conversations about race.
Perhaps most thought-provoking is the biblical evidence for both individual and systemic expressions of sin. Through examples like Achan's family punishment, Daniel's national repentance, and Adam's sin affecting all humanity, scripture acknowledges community responsibility alongside personal accountability—a balanced perspective that challenges our cultural extremes.
As our community grows increasingly diverse, Dr. Mathew leaves us with this guiding principle: "The Gospel creates soft hearts and thick skin." Our secure identity in Christ gives us both the compassion and resilience needed to engage difficult conversations with grace, humility, and hope.
Welcome everyone to another episode of the Ben Lippin Podcast. This is our final episode with Dr Ben Matthew. We're going to be summarizing what we have discussed in the previous four episodes with him and digging a little bit deeper into one of the questions that was brought to us and talking a little bit more about some other issues that have come to the surface. So welcome back, dr Matthew. We are so excited you're here with us today. Why don't we just dive right into an overview of what we've talked about in our previous episodes?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Thanks for having me again, because I really do appreciate Ben Lippin's willingness to engage into a topic that I know tends to create sometimes more heat than light, which is why we've wanted to start this whole episode's whole section on what does God's word say, rather than just kind of go into the political talking heads or the cultural debates of our day. Let's start, let's be grounded by scripture and the story, the narrative that God presents there. That's really what we were trying to do in those earlier episodes I often think about. The story of God is first and foremost, the person and work of Jesus.
Speaker 2:And then how that greater story then informs smaller stories, one of which is racial and ethnic reconciliation. It's not the main story of the Bible but it's one of the stories that I think unfolds from creation, where God creates humans in his image. That theology of the Imago Dei, I think, is so important. That gives us not racial or ethnic identity but identity grounded on God's love for us, that he creates us in his image to be a icon, a steward of his engagement. And in the beginning of Genesis it's a beautiful thing that we get to co-partner with God in creation. The fall obviously mars that and puts a strain on that relationship between us and God, between us and each other, between us and the world. And I use Genesis 11 as a continuation. We know the fall happens in Genesis 3, but Genesis 11 is kind of this continuation of the fall particular to the problems of humanity. You look at that story in the creation of a tower of Babel. It wants to reach the heavens to make a name for themselves, and so it's out of selfishness, it's out of real desire to uphold themselves rather than honor God, and the story essentially ends with God coming down and, through language, dividing them. So we see the people scattered because of their rebellion and judgment from God, but thankfully God doesn't give up on his creation. Rebellion and judgment from God, but thankfully God doesn't give up on his creation. Genesis 11 leads us to the narrative that finds fulfillment ultimately in Jesus Christ, and I use a passage in Revelation 5 that really tries to help unpack what happens at the cross.
Speaker 2:Theologians talk a lot about the atonement and different theories of the atonement, meaning what happens in the death of Jesus. Ultimately, I think the death of Jesus provides a means of salvation for us in that he becomes sin for us, he becomes our substitute, he dies for us. But scripture also communicates other things happen there, like in Revelation 5, where it says by your blood there's a direct reference to the cross you ransom people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. So I think John, through the Holy Spirit, is trying to paint a picture that when Jesus died on the cross, one of the reasons he died not the only reason, but one of the reasons he died was to redeem ransom for himself a multi-ethnic community. This is why he says tribe, language, people and nation. He doesn't just say a bunch of people, he goes out of his way to highlight distinct ethnic realities of this ransomed community. And that happened because of the cross.
Speaker 2:That happened because of the death and burial resurrection of Jesus Christ, which leads us then to the reconciliation that is happening in Acts 2, provides us this great kind of bookmark to Genesis 11. We call it the day of Pentecost, or the beginning of the universal church, where all these people are gathered in Jerusalem and the Holy Spirit comes on them powerfully to start this new work called the church. But I use it as a bookmark to Genesis 11 because, if you remember, in Genesis 11, god comes down and through language divides. Well, in Acts, chapter two, god, the Holy Spirit, comes down and through language unites and you're supposed to see those similarities and differences between Genesis 11 and Acts two. You're supposed to see the similarity of God coming down, but in Genesis 11, he's judging them and they're divided, whereas in Acts two they're seeing the blessings of God, as the text says, that we may see the mighty works of God, and it unites them to go spread the gospel. That can only be done because what Jesus accomplished on the cross, that people from all over the known world and if you look at Dr Luke's explanation in the book of Acts he lists all the different people, groups from all over the world. He doesn't again just say a bunch of people gathered together, he lists them all out. And I love that because I think he's trying to make the point that this is a multi-ethnic work of God which ultimately leads to the end of the story in Revelation 7, right when John is looking into the future, this vision he's given on the Isle of Patmos, he sees a great multitude that no one could number, and again from every nation and tribe, people and language standing before the throne and before the lamb.
Speaker 2:John goes out of his way again to not just say a bunch of people, but he goes out of his way to highlight a multi-ethnic people because the diversity brings greater glory to God. Diversity in itself is not what God's for, but he wants diversity if it brings him greater glory. Much like a symphony. If you just have one person playing a violin, they can be a beautiful musician and it can sound lovely. But if you pair that violin with brass instruments and percussions and woodwinds and all the other variety of instruments, you get a symphony. That's what God wants, and so when we get to the glory I base off of this passage in Revelation 7, that we will persist in our ethnic realities.
Speaker 2:My family is originally from India, so I'm of a darker brown shade. My wife's family is most likely of Scandinavian background, so she has a much fairer complexion than I do, and I often joke that when we get to heaven, god will not take, like his cosmic, universal, remote change, the color contrast on me and lighten me up and darken my wife, where we're all just beige, right, right, right. God loves the diversity, people from every tribe and tongue and nation, because it actually brings him greater glory, and so that story, I think, is really important where we start. There's a lot of debates about so many other issues, but instead of starting at the debates, what if we start with the gospel?
Speaker 2:and let that really inform. How then we engage with those discussions?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Our understanding of the scripture is what they mean, what they truly mean, not what we want them to mean or not what you know, dear Aunt Sally told us that they should mean according to what her little country church told her that they meant. You know, it's really important to really look at what they mean. So thank you for that and one of the beautiful. As you're talking, I'm just thinking, trying to paint a picture for people who might not be familiar with the campus of Columbia International University and the main campus of Ben Lippitt and how it's set up. So we, essentially our campuses, are joined together and something that we might take for granted is when you pull on to International Boulevard, it's called International Boulevard and there are flags from every country.
Speaker 2:I think it's intended to represent both current and past students, so I don't think it's every country, but at least students that have come from those countries.
Speaker 1:Yes, so there are flags all the way down the International Boulevard so that we can see exactly what you're mentioning here. You know the language, the people and the tribes that are bringing glory to God, so I love that we try to embody that here, which again brings us to the next point of discussion, evangelical unity, which is something that I know Columbia International University really leans towards. So share with us a little bit. What does that mean? Evangelical unity? It's one of our core commitments.
Speaker 2:We have five core commitments and this is one of evangelical unity. I always talk about both words being so important. When we talk about unity, we want to happily engage with other Christians who claim the gospel of Jesus Christ and recognize that there's so much more in common than what we disagree. Now that doesn't mean that we can't have conversations and healthy debates about the ways we do church or how we understand baptism or how we celebrate the Lord's Supper or all these other interesting discussions. But the hope is we do it with charity, that we do it with humility, that we recognize these are my brothers and sisters in Christ, that even if we may not agree on these issues, we agree that we're part of the family of God and so we treat each other with the needed respect in those conversations. That's the unity part. I also tried to really stress the evangelical part. The word evangelical just means really good news. It's how we understand the gospel. We want to be charitable to all but recognize we can only be evangelical based upon the gospel.
Speaker 2:I often go to 1 Corinthians, chapter 15, as kind of my central text for that, when Paul is trying to help the Corinthian church with so many different issues, he always brings it back to the gospel.
Speaker 2:For I delivered unto you, as of first importance, the gospel, and Paul doesn't get into the color of the walls in the church, he doesn't talk about which instruments to play, he doesn't talk about what mode of baptism.
Speaker 2:What Paul says is who Jesus is and what Jesus accomplished, based upon the authority of God's word. That's the core and we have some non-negotiables, if I can say it that way, that we must have to define ourselves as evangelical Christians. I realize it means there's others that don't agree with that, people that are atheistic or of other religions, and I should always be charitable, but I can't say that we're evangelical together and that's really, at its core right, the gospel of Jesus Christ. So when it comes to an issue like this of race, I need to remember this is not necessarily a gospel core issue, right? How you think and believe about the issue of racial reconciliation, whether it be through scripture or through culture, doesn't determine if you're a Christian or not. That is not what defines me as a Christian. What defines me as a Christian is how I believe about who Jesus is and the salvation he's offered me.
Speaker 2:So I hope to have charity with people but understand there are things that really define the core of who we are and hold that with conviction and have civility with other people. That may differ on some of the other issues.
Speaker 1:In one of the previous episodes, you challenged us to go and have coffee with someone who looks different, believes different, thinks different than we do, to get to know them. So, when it comes to the overarching theme of this podcast series, how would you encourage someone who has not done this before, who has not sat across the table having coffee with someone who looks different, thinks different, believes different than they do? How would you encourage them to have that evangelical unity within this discussion?
Speaker 2:That's a great question would you encourage them to have that evangelical unity within this discussion? That's a great question For me, one of the things I love I say both as an educator who teaches in a graduate clinical counselor, also as a therapist. I have I'm a licensed professional counselor and I can, I say, just as a human, I love hearing people's stories. I just find it fascinating just to hear the different contexts of their life and where it started and some of the struggles but some of the ways they came through it. I just I love hearing stories from people and one of the ways I think I can do this best, especially when it comes to others I'm unfamiliar with or unfamiliar about their experience.
Speaker 2:Instead of trying to say, okay, help me understand this concept, help me, let's debate this theology. What if, instead, we just say, can you just tell me your story? Like, give me some information about you, and it could be really big, from I was born at a young age to on to the present. Or it could be what happened this past week, like give me something that just happened.
Speaker 2:And I realize when I start getting into people's stories, their narratives actually start finding out about them. Right, what motivates them, what scares them, what excites them, what makes them nervous, who are the most important people in their lives, who are the places and situation they want to avoid. When I am willing to listen to stories, without it being this kind of fight about these issues, I tend to start developing relationship, and it's out of relationship where I can hopefully put in that relational equity right. I earn the right to maybe then understand some deeper issues as well and engage with some of these a little more difficult conversations, but I've earned the right because I just wanted to get to know you right In terms of who you are.
Speaker 1:Helps you to see people for people, instead of seeing people as whatever the issue is at the table.
Speaker 2:Right. They're not a project, they're a human right. I mean, that's the thing my wife and I would often talk about. In whatever neighborhood we lived in, we most definitely want to share the gospel with our neighbors, but we made an effort to say what if, instead, our first job is just to be a good neighbor? Don't get me wrong. We want to share the gospel. It's the most important thing they need to hear.
Speaker 1:But what if we just?
Speaker 2:I don't know have them over for burgers. What if we just like help them mow their grass and just be a good friend whereby, if it comes up right, if not, we at least can just be good neighbors? And I think that's what god's calling us to do in a lot of these conversations, because we get so concerned about the conversation we forget there's just a real person that is just looking to connect oh, that's rich.
Speaker 1:That's wonderful. Thank you for that. Yeah, and that comes into you know this these systematic and individual issues, so share with us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think one of the big questions that where the rubber meets the road. So it's one thing to say you know all this stuff about a biblical theology of race and ethnic engagement. I think for a lot of people there's concern as to what does this look like and then how do we actually address it? And so I usually get into a conversation of what I often refer to, both systemic and individual racism, and I try to avoid systemic or individual racism, that it's an either or. The reality is, I think we see it on both fronts.
Speaker 2:I think, most of us understand individual racism meaning a person says or does something towards another person based on their race or ethnicity that maligns them, that discourages them. I know this has happened to me when people spray painted on my garage door as a little kid, go home, get out of here. That was most definitely hurtful to me and my family.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I think most people understand that. The one that a lot of people are concerned about or don't understand or haven't been exposed to is this idea of systems of racism. And one way I try to kind of help them think about this, for instance, at Ben Lippin we. What's the mascot for Ben Lippin?
Speaker 1:The Falcon Falcon.
Speaker 2:So I assume all of our teams are the Falcon. So I assume if, if anyone has a kid who plays for any of the sports teams, and, more often than not, if that team wins and I'm just gushing with pride and joy over my kids' involvement I'm more likely than not will say to others hey, guess what? The Falcons won. We won the game this past week, and I wanted to highlight how I said it there. We won. And what I'm trying to highlight there is, though, to be clear, I never stepped foot onto that field, I never hit the ball once in the volleyball tournament, but yet somehow I feel somewhat encouraged to say we, the Falcons, won, because I identify with the team, even though I never played on it. I'm part of it, and so this idea of engaging with a community, even when we're not fully engaged with it, gives us an idea that we're part of these systems. So that can be sports teams, that can definitely be countries. Right, I was born and raised in Canada, and so I'll be honest when, during the Olympics come up, there's some division in my household because my wife's American, I'm Canadian, and when Team Canada wins, I say to my wife we won. Let's be clear, I've never been on an Olympic team and I will never participate in one, and I had nothing to do with it, but I used the language of we us because I identify with that community.
Speaker 2:That, to me, is one way of kind of thinking through how sometimes we need to understand that there are systems, communities at play, even when it comes to things like racism, not just individual bad apples, as it were. Sometimes there are systems at play that are actually promoting racist ideologies. The question for us today is is that where we're at in America, was that where we were at and no longer are there? That's the big debate. So I'm not it's not that I'm not interested in that debate, but kind of like what we did before. I want to ground this in scripture first. Does the Bible talk about systemic racism or, more importantly, does it talk about systemic evil, regardless of what type of evil, whether it's racism or otherwise? To me I want to look at scripture and ask that question Is there something in scripture that talks about systems that produce and encourage an evil reality in our culture?
Speaker 2:And so for me it kind of goes. There's a bunch of different stories that highlight this. For instance, in like Joshua 7, there's this individual who the whole nation, whenever they would conquer enemies, they were told destroy everything, don't keep anything for yourself. And there's this one guy who ends up keeping a little for himself, right Achan, and he hides it underneath his tent and, of course, it comes out and he's found out and he's like yeah, I stole it, I did it. And if you read the story in Joshua 7, not only is he punished through capital punishment he's killed but also his wife and kids are killed too. Now, I don't know about you, but here I am in 2025 reading a passage like this and going wait a second, that seems so unfair Achan's sin.
Speaker 2:Why is his family being killed in light of his sin? I think it's in part because in the ancient Near East, especially in a Middle Eastern context, there was much more of a community identity that if one person wins, we all win, but if one person sins, we all sin and the consequences of that extend to us as well. This idea, I think, is something that's a little hard for us in the West, because we're all about individualism, right, we're all about meritocracy and our ability to do what we do and not because of what other people do. But in the Bible it's kind of accepted that you're part of something bigger than yourself, which is why, like in Daniel 9, when, if you read that story, daniel is reading through the Old Testament and he realizes how far Israel has sinned, how far the nation has come apart from God. So Daniel in Daniel 9 prays to God and he says God, we have sinned against you, we as a nation have sinned. Now again, in 2025, if I was sitting there hearing Daniel pray this, I'd be like hey, daniel, speak for yourself. Buddy. Like why are you saying I sinned? That seems unfair to implicate the entire nation for sinning, but in Daniel's mindset it is the whole nation. Even if it was a small group of people, they represent and are part of a larger community. And so there are these stories we have in scripture that I think even at the heart of the gospel.
Speaker 2:I had a friend of mine in high school. I remember he said to me Ben, I got to be honest, I hear your gospel, but it kind of bothers me because, if I understand it, you're saying some guy named Adam, thousands of years ago, on the other side of the world, ate some fruit, and because of what he did, I'm in trouble. I was like, uh yeah, that's about right and I could understand his frustration. Right, some guy he's never met, some guy who he'll never have a chance to engage with because he messed up. I'm now messed up. He felt that was just so unjust, so unfair.
Speaker 2:But the Bible says this is true, right In Romans 5, because of one man's sin, sin entered into the world. Because of one man's disobedience, we are all condemned that we are part of a system, not of just a family like Achan, not just of a nation like Israel, but of a community called humanity. We are all sinful because of what one person did. The good news I often try to tell him is that where the first Adam failed, a second Adam restored. Because of the good of the second Adam, we can now all have life, not because I've earned it, which was interesting, because my friend he rejected that too. He got really upset that someone else provided a way for him, but he wanted to do it himself and so I always think about my friend, as he fully understood the gospel.
Speaker 2:One man messed me up, one man saves me, and he rejected both because he was so anti and typical to the idea that others impact me. I'm not part of a system, I'm my own man, is what he would say, to which the Bible says no, you are both your own man and part of a system, and we need to understand that there is this thing called systemic evil as much as there both is individual evil.
Speaker 2:That doesn't excuse individual responsibility, and so I think some cultures go a little too far and say, well, it's just the system you're in Now you need to take accountability for the decisions you make and you will stand before God ultimately. But that doesn't remove the realities that there are systems in place as well. So that's kind of my short version of trying to understand it. Does scripture, aside from the issue of racism? Does scripture talk about systemic evil? And I think there are a number of examples where it does.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and this has been a wonderful, a wonderful discussion and it, you know, it's all. It all circles back around to scripture, coming back to scripture, coming back to the lens of the Lord and how he would approach our neighbors, and you know the conversations that he would have with people and how he looks at us, how he views us and how he would talk to us, and that's how we need to be approaching one another, these discussions. So I just appreciate your time, you know, over the years, not just within these discussions, but over the years that have allowed us to engage in these discussions with Ben Lippin. So is there anything that you'd like to share in closing with our community, with these discussions?
Speaker 2:Again, just my appreciation to Ben Lippin for your willingness to jump into a conversation that I know is not always the easiest but I think is really important, especially as that question even mentioned. Our community is growing and that's a good thing. I think we're having greater impact and the opportunities to Stewart's gifts here at Ben Lippin. But with that, I think, comes greater responsibility. The more blessing we have, the more God has called us to engage, and part of that is the engagement with other communities, other cultures, other ethnicities. To me, if we're grounded in the gospel, if our identity is first in Christ, that gives us allowance to engage with all these other identities. The way that I keep on thinking about it is the gospel creates soft hearts and thick skin. I know my identity in Christ, I know where I stand and so I realize the thick skin comes in because sometimes people are not always careful or always gracious. But my hope is that we can still have these conversations knowing that our ultimate identity is rooted in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1:And understanding that sometimes I'm not always graceful either.
Speaker 2:Likewise, and Lord is still working on me in these areas too.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Thank you so much, dr Matthew, and again, what's the best way for people to get in touch with you if they'd like further clarification or if they have questions?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I'm a professor in the Graduate Clinical Counseling Programs here at CIU, so you can always reach me through my email, benmathew at ciuedu.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.