Ben Lippen Podcast

The God of Joy

• Ben Lippen Podcast • Season 2 • Episode 5

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Joy that survives sorrow is not a mood; it’s the steady life of Christ in us. We open our Advent series episode on Joy by tracing where joy comes from, why it holds when happiness fails, and how ordinary people can practice rejoicing without faking smiles or denying pain. Our guest, Joey Caldwell, a high school Bible teacher at Ben Lippen, shares a vulnerable story of years-long infertility, heartbreaking loss, adoption, and a slow return from depression and panic. Through it all, a surprising truth emerges: joy never moved, because Jesus never moved.

We unpack the core difference between happiness and Christian joy, using Scripture to ground the idea that joy is a gift of the Spirit, deeply tied to peace, love, and abiding. From Luke’s “good news of great joy” to Revelation 21’s promise of God dwelling with his people, we explore why joy can coexist with grief and how rejoicing becomes a spiritual discipline. You’ll hear practical ways to “rehearse the gospel” in daily life; gratitude that names grace, prayer that keeps the heart soft, obedience that aligns our loves, and worship that trains our desires. We also talk about Advent rhythms that keep the season focused: fasting from distractions, telling the story clearly to our kids, singing, serving, and slowing down to rest.

If you’ve confused joy with feelings or wondered how to choose joy when your heart feels numb, this conversation offers clear language, honest testimony, and doable practices. Walk away with a renewed vision of joy as a state of being in Christ; Peace at rest, Love in action, and hope that endures. If this encourages you, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs courage today, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to our Advent Podcast series, where we prepare our hearts to celebrate the coming of Christ. During Advent, we remember that God entered our world bringing hope, peace, love, and joy, not as distant concepts, but as gifts fulfilled in Jesus. Each week, you'll hear from a special guest who will share scripture and personal testimony as we reflect on what it means to live in Christ's presence. Whether you're listening at home, in the classroom, or on the go, our prayer is that this conversation draws you closer to the heart of Jesus, who is Emmanuel, God with us.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do here at Ben Lippen.

Mr. Joey Caldwell:

I am a Bible teacher here at Ben Lippen. I've been at Ben Lippen for, I think this is my 13th school year. I started in January 2014. So been here a while and a wife and two kids, all under the age of six.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Great. We're excited to have you here with us today. Let's just jump right in here. How would you define joy, especially in contrast to emptiness, numbness, or anhedonia?

Mr. Joey Caldwell:

So I think there's a difference between the joy that someone who follows Jesus experiences versus the joy that someone who isn't a follower of Christ experiences. So for someone who's not in Christ, I would describe joy as like a happiness that's kind of attached to that person seeking some sort of personal satisfaction in an achievement or like a success and accomplishment. But I would say it's limited in its fulfilling nature. Like it's not, it's not gonna be something that lasts for them. But for someone who is in Christ, I would say joy is a gift of the Holy Spirit. It's a good and right feeling in the soul that's characterized by this groundedness, like continually deepening relationship and sense of what the true reality is of who we are in Christ. So ultimately, Christian joy is like the byproduct of our hearts when they're aligned with our understanding of the reality that we are image bearers and that we're created for fullness of life with God, to be in loving and thriving and fruit-bearing relationship with the Heavenly Father. So when it comes to the loss or the inability to feel joy, I think the reality is that a lot of factors can and do contribute to someone's inability to feel joy. I think a person's situation could require various levels of intervention. So if there's truly a loss of the inability to feel joy, that has to be devastating. Like I can't imagine what that deprivation is or could feel like. But I think even after saying all that, do you think from a biblical perspective that a felt numbness or an emptiness in a person could be pointing to a deeper spiritual reality or a need in that person? I think obviously like serious prayer and thought and studying the word and discernment and counsel is needed in those situations, but I think it points to a spiritual reality or it can point to a spiritual reality. And I actually often question like, is someone who's feeling that loss of joy or the inability to feel joy? Are they conflating the idea of happiness equals joy? So that would be a question I would ask someone is what is joy to you?

Mrs. Erin Kay:

That ties beautifully right into our next question. How would you describe the difference between happiness and joy?

Mr. Joey Caldwell:

Happiness is subjective. It's based on your circumstances. So it's mostly affected by outside influences and it's purely an emotion, right? It's not lasting, it's not fulfilling. You experience it and then it goes away. And so I think uniquely that because of that, it's tied to experiences and circumstances. It can also lead into other things like selfishness could be attached to like your happiness, right? Because it becomes all about me, and then that makes me feel good. It makes me feel happy. But I would say from that perspective, it's purely subjective. But the comforting and the beautiful thing about Christian joy is its objectivity, it's not based on my experiences. So joy is a state of being. Like Jesus said in his upper room discourse, I'm saying these things to you that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be full. It's a state of being. It's actually about abiding and about dwelling in Christ. I think that is joy. Joy doesn't necessitate my ability to feel it. The reality of joy doesn't depend on my awareness of it. The theme of joy for Advent, Christ has come, He brings the joy of salvation. So it's a state of being, it's outside of myself. I also think joy is a much weightier and real substance than happiness. There's a quote by Alistair Begg that I really love that he says, joy is peace dancing, capital J and capital P. Joy is peace dancing, and peace is joy at rest. So I think it's really hard actually to talk about joy without its connection to the other fruit of the spirit, like the peace and the love. They're all related to one another. Like they have to connect, they're not isolated. It's one fruit of the spirit that's produced in us, not fruits of the spirit. So joy comes from this place of peace and rest, and it's more of an internal state of being, like it's a virtue, it's not an emotion. It is emotive though, like it does express itself, it can express itself in happiness, but it's not dependent on particular circumstances. So it informs our attitudes, our behaviors because it's ultimate reality. When you think of the Christmas story, the good news of great joy is that a savior has been born unto us. That restoration, that relationship, the reality that we will be with God, that's the good news of great joy. And so the reality of that restored relationship that will always be with the Lord is uh for me the defining piece of joy. My favorite picture of joy is Revelation 21, where the voice comes down and he says, Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. And it's almost like this breath, this exhale, we're we're whole again, we are at rest, and that relationship is made new. So that's how I would describe the difference between joy and happiness.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

And as you're talking about this, I'm being reminded of the verse that says, I bring to you good news of great joy unto you as born a savior, who is Christ the Lord. And that is that juxtaposition of joy. Like we have joy in his birth, but we know what that's gonna result in.

Mr. Joey Caldwell:

Yeah, it's gonna result in that horror of the cross. But even Jesus in Hebrews for the joy that was set before him, he endured the cross. So even Jesus' eyes are fixed on joy, on that ultimate end of everything being made right, all things being made new, that new creation. So I think that often, maybe within the church, I would say the misconception is that joy and grief or hardship or suffering don't go together. And that's not at all biblical. I think that it's often through hardship and suffering that we're able to recognize and see joy for what it is.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Marries very well into our next question of why does scripture call us to choose joy even in trials? And what does that look like practically?

Mr. Joey Caldwell:

Well, I think for the reason laid out in Revelation 21, right? Because the joy that we express, like when Paul says rejoice, right? That's an expression of joy. So expressed joy is a witness to the true and ultimate reality of Christ in my life and what that means for me in the ultimate end or the beginning, however you want to look at it. It's like a testimony to the work he's accomplished in the relationship that's been restored with the Father. So I think choosing joy is actually a spiritual discipline. It's an exercise because if I'm called to rejoice in all circumstances, that would imply that there's something to still be joyful about, despite my current circumstances. So the idea of choosing joy, it's actually volitional on my part to fix my eyes and train my eyes to look to Christ despite my emotions, despite what I'm feeling. Like my happiness is an emotional response to my interactions and relationships, surrounding circumstances. So something like grief and loss or suffering, they can seriously affect my happiness, but I can still rejoice within those circumstances. I can still remember joy. And again, that's advent. Anticipating, longing for, waiting for that final moment, like the marriage supper where we are united again with the Heavenly Father. I think of the Christmas story and the angel's pronouncement. Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy. For unto you is born this day in the city of David, a savior who is Christ the Lord. And then they go on to say, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he's pleased. So for the believer, our end is Christ. Our joy is a savior born unto us that we might be reconciled, have peace again. Like they've married joy and peace. The angels have in that pronouncement that we would have peace again with God. So he's not only the end of all things, but he is our life. So choosing joy isn't about putting on a happy face, it's rooted in something beyond and greater than ourself. So practically, what does that look like? Honestly, it can be really hard sometimes. To choose joy is to recalibrate my mind, to be eternally minded, and to fix my eyes on Christ and the hope that one day everything will be made right. Sorrow will be no more and will always be with the Lord. Like I think of C. S. Lewis. The Lord has used the Chronicles of Narnia and C. S. Lewis in my life to deepen my understanding of his heart for me and who he is. And the prophecy of Aslan's return is wrongs will be made right when Aslan comes in sight. At the sound of his roar, sorrows will be no more. And I just love that picture of like the lion shows up and everyone knows who's in charge and there is peace. So, practically, what does that look like? I think because I'm a human, it's hard. My flesh wants to define my joy by my circumstances. So I think one of the best ways to practically choose joy is by rehearsing the gospel. Preach the gospel to yourself, whether it's in song, whether it's seeing it within scripture and tying things back to like what has Christ done, whether it's in the books that you read, the podcasts that you listen to, the people that you surround yourself by, it's important that we rehearse the gospel to ourselves because it's important that we're reminded who we are and what our need is. It's no longer joy if I don't realize that I have a need for it. My joy is rooted in the reality that I need Christ to reach that place. If it's up to me, if I've already arrived, if I think I've arrived, then like it's not really joy at all. It's absent of a loving father who has sent his son to rescue me. So I think rehearsing the gospel is a huge way. And you can do that in so many ways. But I do think on that note, if someone doesn't actually know what Christ says about them, if they don't know and understand the father's heart for them, that's the first issue. Like that's the first thing you gotta address, right? If you don't understand your worth, where your identity is, how can you find joy and peace and rest if those things are missing, right? So go read Genesis one through three, go read Exodus 34 and find out God's character, like who he says he is. Learn about his gentleness and his lowliness in Matthew, just as heart, like he wants to be with us, not because he needs us, but just purely out of a desire to be with us. That's how he initially created us to be in that relationship with him, to care for his creation. I also think prayer and thankfulness are practical ways to choose joy. Being thankful in all circumstances, you're acknowledging the true realities of your spiritual condition in spite of your circumstances. Again, it's just like that reminder. I also think obedience is a huge practical way to choose joy. It's also probably the hardest because it's rooted in our affections. Like, what are my affections facing toward? How am I nurturing my right affections? If joy is a fruit of the spirit, it follows after love. So it's intrinsically linked to love. And Jesus told us how to love. And he said, If you love me, you'll keep my commandments. Like our obedience is attached, it's an expression of our love for him. And so I think if you're gonna practically choose joy, I think obedience, in spite of what you may be facing or what he's asking you to do, obedience is a very practical way to choose joy. It's obedience in small things, it's obedience in big things, it's obedience in just being consistent in the mundane. Just obedience is huge. And I think that ties into like a fourth thing, which is abiding. The word abide, may know, it's a word of command, but Jesus is using it as an invitation, and he does so because he says that this is where you'll have fullness of joy. He says, These things I spoke to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. So our joy is directly tied to our obedience and the alignment of our hearts, and just the idea of abiding in that relationship with the Father is huge. And so those are those are four practical ways I would say to choose joy in trial or hardship, suffering or grief. It's a spiritual discipline because it helps us to practically grow in our righteousness. Righteousness is relational, it's not performative. So it's born out of my relationship with the Father. So if I'm not in his word, if I'm not abiding, if I'm not pursuing him, then that's going to be reflected in everything else, including my joy, including my level of obedience. So the best practical thing you could do is work on that relationship to choose joy, not even as a virtue, but as a person, like as Christ. Like joy is Christ. If we abide in him, we have fullness of joy.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Yeah, those are some great ways to do that. And continually being in tune to where you are in your relationship with the Lord and not losing grip of Yeah, the Lord's not gonna leave you guessing.

Mr. Joey Caldwell:

My experience, anyways, has been that the Holy Spirit will make very clear where you where you stand with him. Because the Holy Spirit is only gonna produce holiness in you. That's the only thing he can produce in us is holiness. And so it's gonna be become very obvious if I'm on a spiritual level, if I'm not pursuing that.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Can you share a time when you experienced or chose joy in the middle of a painful or uncertain season?

Mr. Joey Caldwell:

So my wife and I have been going through years of unexplained infertility. We've been married for 13 years, and for 11 of those, there's no answer for it. There's no reason medically that we've been able to find. And there is a period of time in those first four or five years were really challenging in our faith because things got really dark really fast. When you have something that you're hoping for, and it's good that you're hoping for it, and you're designed and you're created to want that and not only want it, but you should be able to grow your family in that way. It can become very disheartening, it can become very infuriating at times. That's the ultimate reality of us not being able to have biological children is because of brokenness, right? Like the brokenness of our bodies, brokenness of creation as a result of sin. So those first four to five years, I would probably describe them desperate, like because all of a sudden these hopes and these dreams that you've had for who knows how long, and just how deep-seated they are, they're just being ripped from you and you can't do anything about it. And for me, as a husband, I'm watching my wife suffer and grieve and experience really deep pain that I wasn't able to do anything about. And as a part of that, I also think I've learned since then the husband is also experiencing the trauma and the grief and the pain. And so this after years of trying and thousands of dollars and medical procedures and appointments and examinations and just trying to figure out what's going on. We finally got pregnant with twins. And then the Lord took the twins, and it was just like this renewed sense of despair. It was like the surge and like he's answered our prayer. Like the number of people that were praying for us. I mean, I would guess like hundreds of people across international borders. So to have that excitement and then have it removed almost immediately, that was a horrible feeling. And then we got pregnant again within that year, and the Lord took that one. And all this time, as we're going through it, like as a husband, like I'm watching my wife deal with this. Her testimony is incredible. Like, I don't respect a woman more than my wife. Like, my wife had a serious crisis of faith, and she in the end chose Christ. And I watched her go through that. And meanwhile, as we're going through this, I'm trying to keep us just like moving forward, right? Because like the cruel thing about life is that it keeps moving forward. So if you've not experienced that, that's that's a horrible place to be, right? Where life keeps moving and you just want everything to stop. So as my wife is going through this, like she's processing everything. And for me, I didn't really process anything because I'm stereotypical male and I just shoved it away for the time because I needed to keep us afloat. So we move beyond that, and then we ended up adopting our daughter, and that was such a moment of joy of the father saying, I see you and I do restore the brokenness. And Psalm 112, verse 4 says, Light dawns in the darkness for the upright. And our daughter, Lumia, we chose her name because it meant light. The Lord had given us that name as a promise, and we got the call. Like, that's her name. Like Lumia, like this is our light. Like, this is a testimony of his faithfulness to us in that way. But for me, the rough part was after that. Our friend's son, who was my buddy, he was filling a hole that I was unaware that I had. And he was born with half a heart, and he was six years old. And a month and a half after we'd adopted our daughter, uh, he passed away. And can't think of a time that I felt more empty and broken. And I think the interesting thing is that the Lord allowed me to get to a place of depletion, emotional, mental, physical, spiritual depletion. And then he chose to take me into the dark valley. And so I had like a year and a half period of depression. I was having panic attacks because my body had decided we're processing this now. And so, like, I was experiencing panic attacks. I was having some pretty intense spiritual oppression happen to me as well. And it was a really dark season. And when the Lord brought me out of that, it wasn't until he brought me out of that that he began to show me every place he had been faithful for me and fought on my behalf and carried me. And it was in that moment that I realized all those times I had been telling my wife, we have to choose Jesus. It will be okay. We know what the end is, right? And then that reverses and she's telling me those things, right? To come on the other side of that and then to have that reality of he is faithful, it is okay, and to realize that the seat of my joy didn't waver, it didn't change. He stayed the same. I would say that is a moment where I experienced joy. And I think it's important to say that sometimes we think joy has to come with a feeling, and there's a lot of times where that's not the reality. And that's the good thing about it, too, is that it it's not based on your feeling, but to then come out of that pain or out of that suffering, that grief, and realize that my joy hasn't changed and that joy is still full in Christ. That's like a stake in the ground for me, like a marker in my life of choosing joy or recognizing that joy that I have and experiencing just like a taste of like the extent of it. It reaches even into the darkness and it's unfazed by your circumstances.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

What's coming to mind is the phrase, even still. Even still, the joy is there. So, what has God taught you about finding joy that isn't dependent on your circumstances?

Mr. Joey Caldwell:

I think, like I just said, like joy doesn't change. My heart does, my heart changes, but joy is consistent. So my experience of joy and finding joy often requires a heart change. Like I think of David in Psalm 51, like, restore to me the joy of your salvation. Like his heart had moved away from God, and he's also confessed that like he needs God to bring him back to that place. And so I think it's also important that we recognize that joy is a gift, joy is something that God works within us. Also, I'm more naturally a melancholy person, like in my temperament, and like I can be more cerebral. And I think that's part of why spiritual disciplines are a thing. Choosing joy as a spiritual discipline, like I think we're exhorted to do that because it's a part of us that needs to actually practice righteousness. I grow in holiness because the Holy Spirit only produces holiness in me. So if joy, which is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, is birthed in Christ, then to continue finding joy, we should be growing in our righteousness, right? That's that relationship piece again, because that's where it's going to be found. So our growth comes from a flourishing relationship with Christ. Again, the fullness of joy in the presence of the Lord. So finding joy is an intentional on my part. I have to recognize, again, being aware, like you said, being aware of who I am, but also like being intentional in pursuing that. I also think like actively putting myself in his presence, if we're to abide in him, then putting myself in his presence is vital. Vitally important to that experience of joy, to finding that joy. Like Psalm 16, 11, there's there's fullness of joy in the presence of the Lord. So putting myself in his presence. I think joy is intended to be shared. It's not just isolated to you. Like joy is communion with the Father. Joy is shared with others. And it's intended to be communal. It's intended to be like binding, right? At base level, it's the Holy Spirit in you producing that. So like there's already two parties, but it's done in Christ. So now there's three parties. And it's so that you can have a right relationship with the Father. So now you you've been brought into the Trinity. And then as an outworking of that, like it's shared with others. So I think it might be hard to find joy in isolation. And then the last thing I think one of the biggest things for me was when there's a shift in my thinking, my understanding when I thought of being saved. So like I used to think of I'm saved so I can go to heaven. Okay. So a big piece of this is like a shift in my mindset of thinking that I'm not saved to go to heaven. Or like realistically, like if we're honest, saved to get out of hell, right? Like kind of how it's presented. And I think that does a disservice to our understanding of the gospel because when when my mindset shifted from that being saved to go to heaven to I'll always be with the Lord, when that shifted in my mind of, oh, he wants that. Like he wants my heart. Like he's wooing me. He wants me to abide in him. Why? Because it's for my good and it's for his glory. Like when that shifted for me and my source of joy was rightly placed in that context of my relationship with him, I began to understand what meant that he was my father, that he's a good shepherd, that he's king and savior, he is with me. I'm not his enemy anymore. So Christ is my joy and my peace dancing, and my good news of great joy, right? So like I think those are some of the things like I've been I've learned about finding joy despite outside of any sort of circumstantial things in my life.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

What does everyday ordinary joy look like as an expression of life with Christ? And what helps you cultivate joy as a spiritual posture, not a temporary emotion?

Mr. Joey Caldwell:

I think thankfulness is an everyday ordinary expression of joy. Genuine thankfulness. I think genuine self-giving love for others is an expression of joy. Serving in a non-transactional way is an expression of joy. That peace that passes understanding, right? That we live day to day in is an expression of joy. It's that unhurriedness, it's that I'm at rest. I think also to cultivate joy and as an expression of it, like worship is like a huge piece of this. Worship is one of the things that the Lord has used in my life. Like music that he's used in my life to draw me closer to himself. It's not the only way, and I would caution anyone who thinks that that's how they, that's the only way they could commune with God. But worship is vital. And if I could say something about worship, God's given everyone a voice. We're called and commanded to sing, and we're exhorted to sing. It's a distinguishing mark of someone who's a follower of Jesus, and it's expected, right? Like it's like it's expected to be a part of the believer's life. I was raised in a church that I'm thankful for, that the music minister. He is regularly exhorting the fathers to sing. He says, Your children need to hear you sing. I think singing is an expression. Uh C. S. Lewis calls it praise is that consummation of those feelings that you have. Like you can do no higher thing than to praise, right? And so, like worship to cultivate that joy in your life, you really should be singing. There's also scientific and other things to back that up, just like the benefits of that and and why it's important to our human psyche and just our existence and things like that. But worship is huge in cultivating joy in your life.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

All right. So, what are some simple things that bring you joy during Advent and how do those moments point you back to Jesus?

Mr. Joey Caldwell:

Anything that we can do to keep our mind on Christ during that season is what we try to do. So, one of the things that I do and that our family does is we kind of treat Advent just like someone would treat Lent. It is intended to be that season of preparation before the festival. So, like Lent is that period of time where you're looking toward Holy Week and then Easter, like Resurrection Sunday and then the Easter tide. And in the same way, Advent serves as that season of anticipation and waiting. So, like what we try to do is we try to keep Christmas at Christmas and we try to foster like anticipation during the Advent season. So one of the things I do personally is like I abstain from social media during that time. And anything that could distract me, I probably should just be off like social media like altogether, right? Like I understand that it is something I intentionally like just remove myself from so that I could be intentional in that time and focus. Another way that we do that is we make sure that our kids understand that any gifts that they receive that they know who they come from. Not intentionally to be contrarian or controversial, but it's something that my wife and I decided that we want the joy of Christmas to not be confused at all. Because it's so consumer-minded, we want there to be a clear distinction of why we're celebrating. And we don't want our kids to think we're like supplementing anything. Like the story is incredible, and we want them to know the story, and we want them to celebrate and to feel that excitement that he's here, right? So that's one of the things that we have intentionally just decided for our family. We do fun things, like we put up light, and again, like anything we can do to like tie it back to Christ, like he's the light of the world. Like, why are we putting up lights right now? It's a festival of lights. We're we're celebrating that he like the light has come into the world, the light has shined in the darkness. We we bake birthday cakes for Jesus. Our kids are very excited about it. This past September, like we're driving back from a camping trip and they're talking about what they want the cake to be and what it's gonna say and how they're gonna decorate it. Like it's something that like they're actually like genuinely like looking forward to. And uh, that's I mean, obviously, that's what we want. We listen to good music. I just love finding new concept albums and things of retelling the story, and I really appreciate that. Obviously, go through the advent story. The last thing I'd say is like we try to slow down to just be to rest. This is only our third year that we're gonna be like in our home on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. Like, we're giddy about it. Our kids, I mean, they love going to Grandma Papa's, but Bethany and I, we're we're giddy about being at home and just being at rest, being at peace, cutting out the busyness and the chaos. Even if it's festive, sometimes the busyness can steal your ability to reflect and bask in the reality that there is good news of great joy and it's our savior who is Christ the Lord. So those are things that we try to do to foster that.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Thank you so much for being here with us today, Mr. Caldwell, and for reminding us of the good news that is the great joy and helping us to shape our understanding of what joy was designed to be. If any of our listeners want to contact you to ask more questions or just share something that's going on in their life, what's the best way for them to contact you?

Mr. Joey Caldwell:

Well, they could come by my office, but I think the easier thing would be just email me at joseph.caldwell at binlippen.com.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Great. Thank you so much for being here with us today and Merry Christmas.

Mr. Joey Caldwell:

Merry Christmas.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for being with us today as we explore the beautiful promises of Advent. We hope these truths deeply inspire you throughout the week, turning the story of Christ into a personal invitation, calling you to walk daily in his hope, peace, love, and joy. We truly look forward to sharing the next step of our Advent journey with you soon.

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Joey Caldwell

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