Parenting the Anxious Child with Robyn Isman

In this powerful and relatable episode, Robyn Isman, therapist and parenting coach, sits down with Alexandria and Leesha to unpack the layers of parenting anxious kids.

From letting go of control to managing our own anxiety, this conversation is filled with compassionate truth bombs and a whole lot of real talk. If you’ve ever felt like doing “all the right things” still isn’t helping, this one’s for you. Expect validation, insight, and a whole lot of “Aha” moments.

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Find More Resources: https://www.theanxiouschild.com/
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Transcript

1:00

All right, hello everybody and happy Friday. If you're listening today on Friday. We are so excited to welcome today's guest, Robin Isman. She's a mom of three, an anxiety coach for parents and the brilliant voice behind Parenting the Anxious Child. Thank you. so quick recap of why this episode matters. Anxiety in childhood is more common than we think, and as moms we often carry the weight of trying to fix it, but what if we do, doing less could actually help more. ah We know that with all the kids going back to school and everything, which is around when this should come out, uh kids are feeling a lot of anxiety. I know my oldest who's going into first grade, she has been starting to show signs of some heavy anxiety about going back to school, what that's gonna look like, who her teacher is, what kids are gonna be like, like everything she's been worrying about. So it'll be helpful to hear some tidbits about like how to handle that as a parent or how to just hear her. Yeah. um That's really funny that Logan is feeling the anxiety when we are leading up to school because Jameson's anxiety was at the end of the last school year and He started it because they're switching schools, but he was starting in like I don't want it. I want to stay at this school I don't want to go to the next school Yeah, she's having that problem now moving into the new years like she didn't register it at the end of the school year But now that the new school year is coming and she knows like she's going to a new school She's like having all the thoughts and worries I mean, honestly, what's interesting about this stuff is that the, um, we like always want to, mean, this will come up because this is a broken record with these things, but we always want to know that like, it's not about the content. It's really about the process. And for both of these examples, to me, all I hear is, of course it was a state of transition. So it's not like, Oh, that's because the school year was ending or it's because the school year was starting or it's really like. I mean, we do this as adults. I don't know if any of you have people in your life that like, whether it's transitioning to summer or transitioning to fall, there's a dysregulation. And so any type of transition like that brings up like a lot of anxiety for people. And when you don't know what that is, you start asking a lot of reassurance questions. So it makes sense. Hmm. right, so we have an icebreaker question for you Robin out. kind of like got off to a good start here We know you're a mama three and an expert in parenting through anxiety and a big fan of saying yes What's something you recently said yes to that brought you joy? oh Well, if I'm going like recent recent a friend we were going to a cape. I'm from Massachusetts I'm in Massachusetts and then we go people go down the Cape. That's what they call it down the Cape oh And so one of my friends invited us to her Cape house and I originally said no Because I'm moving and I'm so stressed and blah blah I said no and I think I literally filled out your survey about saying yes because I Then said yes to her because I was like, I really like to say yes actually to everything when I can and I had said no because I was like oh I shouldn't I shouldn't and then I changed it to yes. So we had a really nice mom's weekend in the Cape with my friends at her house she has a pool it was like so fun but I also think about that with like I actually feel like when I am 40 and for the past year from 39 to 40 I said like I'm not going to necessarily I did celebrate but I was like it's more about like saying yes to like when people invited me on trips or when they invited or like my a bunch of my friends started going to these monthly 90s nights around here where because it's just it's so fun from 7pm to 10pm. It's just a 90s music at this club in Cambridge, Massachusetts called Middlesex. Shout out. And it's so fun because then you can still be in bed by like 1030 or 11 if you want. em but like the idea of saying yes, like I don't mean it in this big. I mean, I guess I also mean it working with you, Leisha. Like I've said yes to like, let's do a podcast. Like I also say it professionally, but I've noticed a lot this year, like saying yes to more of those, like I'm tired and I really just want to go to bed, but maybe I should go to 90s night first and then I can go to bed. So stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah, it's so funny. Yeah. kids as like a parent, but like I love saying yes for yourself also. Oh yeah, wasn't even thinking about them when I filled that out. I do, I am a yes parent. I do notice that a lot of people like I feel very strongly about like not setting precedence, like not getting the ice cream because then you'll always have to get the ice cream or not. And I really don't, I'm like, this is so like nice to be able to say yes to my kids. And like, if I want to say no, I just say no. Like I don't, like I'm not so worried about like that. So I actually do say yes to them a lot too, but I was thinking about myself. Nah. No, I love that. That is so funny. Robin, can you share your story and how you became passionate about helping parents of anxious kids? Yeah. so I, I'm a therapist, by training here. uh My training is in social work. So I'm a licensed independent clinical social worker. And now I've transitioned to be more of a coach and put out models of more skills based and education around this. But when I first started, I started seeing people with anxiety, kids with anxiety, when I say kids more like eight and up, I was more seeing like that, latency age and like eight, uh, middle school, high school, I really liked the teenage years, adolescence and stuff like that. And I called anxiety the gateway diagnosis, you know, like the gateway drugs, like the gateway diagnosis, because I feel like anxiety is the first thing we see when our kids are struggling. And so we're like, they have anxiety. And that's usually like why a kid comes. It could be something else that comes from it that we learn, but usually the behavior represents some like anxiety of some. of some sort. So I was seeing kids and it was great. I loved being able to see them, but over the course of my work, I realized how important it was to get parents in the room. And I was doing it informally, like based on just what I knew. So I was like educating them on things that we know about anxiety. Maybe I was educating them on the tools that I was sharing with the kids, all of that. And that about a year and a half ago, not a year, probably more two years ago, I, found out about something called SPACE, which is supportive parenting of anxious childhood emotions. And it's a modality that is a brief treatment. It's about eight to 12 weeks, according to the clinical trials. And it is the only evidence-based program proven to decrease childhood anxiety by only working with parents. And I was like, my God, like this, I've been like searching for this. And so I got, I went all in and I like did the training. I did the full year certification. I made my Instagram parenting the anxious child. I made everything like it's my whole personality. And the reason that I feel so strongly about it is because about space, it's wonderful. But about parent work is because what happens is we send kids are the problem. Like for parents, kids are the problem. their behaviors are hard, they get in the way, and I hope people can read between my lines a little bit. don't, do, I'm blah blah blah. Yeah, and very typically the problem, like if you want to get out of the house and you can't get out of the house, the person in the way of getting out of the house is your child. So what happens is is that you, parents and teachers and adults, focus on how do we change this child? This child is having a problem, how do we change them? And then kids end up in maybe your weekly therapy, skills groups, there's a lot of things that are like completely child-focused, but then there's no formal training for the parents unless that therapist that was working with the kid happened to also do parent work. So I'm also a big follower of Lynn Lyons and she does all her work. really with parents and children together. So she's like amazing. She's my pride, my first anxiety guru that I ever followed. And did all my like continuing ed with her and all that stuff. She also has a podcast. It's wonderful. um But she basically, uh the idea is that if you don't stumble upon a therapist that's kind of prioritizing or mandating parent involvement, there was no like specific parent modality. And what happens is, that then you take this kid who's One doesn't have a fully developed brain because our brains don't fully develop till we're like 23. And then the other part of that is that they're dealing with anxiety and maybe other things also, because anxiety is, like I said, often just the thing we see, that there's often stuff underneath. So you take this kid who has one not a fully developed brain and then also some kind of challenge. And then you say, OK, learn these things one hour a week and then remember them all week during all your triggers. and then you throw them back at school, you throw them back in their house and like you want, and we want this child who we've already named as having this struggle to be the way, to be the person to say, okay, I remember that when I need, when I get upset and I want to punch my friend, I'm going to take three deep breaths. And like, that's absurd when you say it, like the way I'm saying it. And so the idea that there's a formal modality for parents is the, purpose of that is so that the person with the fully-formed brain, with more of the executive functioning to be able to uh help the child can intervene and either involve themselves or not involve themselves in a way that is more helpful to the child so that all the progress doesn't rely on them. So that's kind of the reason for the parent work that's so important. It's why I actually like, do see uh adolescents and teens still and I love it. But when someone's like, want a therapist for my anxious kid, I will say like, that is not the most effective strategy. Like it is not the most effective thing. don't recommend that. I don't say your kids shouldn't go to therapy, because of course some kids could like enjoy that um relationship and it's hopefully a safe adult and all that. But it's with the parent work is what's the most effective and efficient. um To transition to why like this whole do less parenting and like this strategy is, uh it's really been something that's been grained in me since I was really young. So my mom, she raised me on what she called benign neglect. So she was a single mom, she had three jobs. I always think of the Reva McEntire song when I say that. She was a single mom, she worked three jobs. um I did not think anything of it. Of course, I was a normal person who got upset and whatever, but I would go with her to her jobs. They were just part of our life. If I had to go home off the bus by myself, I went on the bus by myself. If I vividly remember like, being locked out of my house and just knocking on a random neighbor's door and eating dinner with them and I don't know who they are, I couldn't name them. have no idea. I never went in there again. But my mom, what she called it was benign neglect because it was benign. It wasn't like I didn't have what I needed. It was just, Okay, like this is like you got to just come along or figure it out because we're busy and we're doing stuff. And she also was a mom that didn't like she never called to switch my class. She never would get involved in a conflict resolution with me. I remember one time I was being bullied on the bus and I won't name the person but I do remember their name in case they're listening. I won't name them because I have I am a grown up and I mature but I'll never forget you. um it in her head. will never forget you, but I was being bullied on the bus and I remember being like to my mom, like, I can't take the bus because I'm being bullied. And she was like, well, that's how you got to school. Like there's no like alternative. Like now in 2025, people are like, oh my God, I have to drive my kids to school because they're being bullied on the bus. Like I was being bullied. And my mom, who was so wonderful and caring and compassionate was like, but that's your ride. Like what do you mean? Like there's no other ride. And so she just, you and she called that benign neglect. And I've always loved that idea that like you can back off in a way that's not negative. um And then when I started having kids, never really like um got really into the whole parental martyrdom that happens that like, I, you know, I left my kids. I sound so horrible, but again, benign neglect, but I like, you know, I was okay going out for an hour early on. I was okay with my husband feeding my child. was okay. Like I never felt like I had to do everything. And so there's something that's always been ingrained in me that like, I don't have to fix everything. I don't have to do everything. But I'm also a human being who is in society and you get a lot of messaging of like that we're supposed to be doing everything for everyone in order to be good. Like in order to be a good parent, you have to do something. And so I've always sort of known that wasn't true, like that that wasn't, that didn't really resonate with me. But then when I saw, when I got trained by space, in space, what is cool about it is it's actually evidence based that backing off and doing less, but in a way that's intentional and supportive, it actually then also helps your kid have less anxiety. So now I feel like I'm really emboldened because I feel like I've been believing this for so long. I knew, I used to use this word horizontal parenting. I would be like, oh, whatever you have to do that you can just lay horizontally while you parent. In some way I bought a bunch of my guy friends these shirts with race tracks on the back so their kids could just do. put cars around their backs so they could just like lay down. Like I was like, we don't have to be doing so much all the time. Like I've always preached this. But then when I got trained in space, even though it's a lot of work, a lot of the work is around like decreasing your involvement, decreasing your accommodations around the anxiety. That's like the main work. But a lot of the language is like delaying your response, disengaging from something. Like it's a lot of it is around us leaving room for the child to develop. and to fully be able to either fully feel their emotion or develop some kind of skill that they can't develop because we're in their way. Like lot of parents will be like, my kid won't go to sleep by themselves. They need me to lay with them. And they don't realize that what they're saying is I'm laying with them. Like you're participating in it. And we just have to think about like our role a lot more because now evidence is showing that the real helicopter-y like controlling um overly involved parenting is actually leading to like more anxiety, not less. So like removing ourselves is actually a way to decrease because what we know is that increasing independence decreases anxiety. um Another organization that I just need to name job here is Let Grow. And that's their whole mission is to increase independence for kids because it improves their mental health when they have more independence. So it's kind of like a big answer, but it's like I was into the anxiety. I realized how important parents were. And then in the background, I was also always like, why are we such, why do we have to do everything all the time? And then when I found space, I was like, this is evidence-based, great. Yeah, that is incredible. I feel like you had so many little tidbits in there that were really relatable for me and especially. actually, when you're saying that as they have more independence and anxiety goes down, I feel like that's very much the case with my oldest. She's 12 now and her anxiety seems to be mostly gone where before we were not functioning well. And so I think that that... Tracks for us. All right, well thanks for walking us through all of that. Space is, it sounds really incredible. I'm all for kids having the independence and thinking for themselves and all of it. I kind of practiced that today at the grocery store because I made Delilah man her own list and her own cart and she even like branched off and like went and shopped aisles without me. And so it was like, it was really cool. It's awesome. You kind of covered our next question, but I have an alternative question for you. What would you say aside from getting into like a parent retraining essentially for how to approach anxiety with your kids? What would you say the first step is if you have a kid that's exhibiting like high anxiety around a situation? What do you think the first step a parent can take to help with that? I mean, obviously, I know you have the step back approach, but what? For a parent that's struggling with that, what would your first step be? Suggestion. mean like a concrete, like a thing for them to do or like a resource for them to engage in? How about both? Well, first I would say find a space practitioner. You can go online and find one because I really, really if your kid is struggling with anxiety at any age, I actually think I love when I get referrals for kids who are like four and I work with them early before they have an official diagnosis. I like that's a training on how to respond to your anxious kid even when their anxiety is like, it's not, you know, it's kind of like feels little bit more minor in those moments or maybe doesn't feel as impactful, like you could change. So the resource I would be to do space, like that is the number one resource I would suggest for parents to learn. If I was going to say what to do in the moment, it's really about naming. So in space, we have a thing called supportive language and it's a formula of like how to respond and it's naming, like validating. And so that's like naming the emotion you're seeing. or the experience. So it's like, I see that you're feeling anxious, I see that you're feeling nervous, I see that you're feeling upset, something like, where you're just you're not saying it'll be okay, or you'll be fine, or you've done this before. A lot of times, uh parents want to reason with their anxious kid. But the thing about anxiety is that it's a body and a brain response. And when you're when you have anxiety, you go into a survival brain. So you're prefrontal cortex, which is your reasoning, goes offline. And so when we sit there and we try to reason with them why they'll be okay at school next year or why their teacher is fine or why their class is fine, they are not hearing anything you're saying. Or the relief from that conversation is very short, because it's like, I feel relief. And then they ask the question. I'm sure you noticed, Alex, you were talking about uh your daughter asking a lot of questions. Even when you answer them, she asks them again. Like it's not like our answer makes them feel better in the long run. So the first thing I would do is when you notice yourself trying to uh engage or reason, I would actually just name it. wow, you're feeling really anxious right now. Oh wow, not knowing what your school year is like next year is making you nervous. Like, or oh, I see that me going out tonight is making you feel nervous or making you feel scared. And what you're doing in that moment is you're calling out the anxiety in a way that typically when parents respond, we are actually trying to get the anxiety to go away before we've even named it. We're trying to like solve it for them. And so the first thing you can do. Yeah. And, and also just literally modeling it, like saying, like naming it as a way to say, yes, that thing you're experiencing is, and we don't even, the reason I sometimes don't use the word anxiety is cause I don't. Like anxiety has been taken by the world, but it actually is a clinical diagnosis and not every worry or every fear we have is anxiety. And so even naming for your child, like, yeah, when you feel uncertain, that can be scary. Like, so you're really just validating the experience that they're having. then you kind of don't even need, I mean, there's another part to the formula that I can share, but. Even if you were gonna say what's the first thing I would recommend someone do, it would be to name what they're seeing to their child. Because then your kid grows up knowing, oh, this isn't something wrong with me or wrong with my system or wrong with my school or wrong. What it is is that I'm feeling something and my mom has maybe even felt it before because she's naming it. So like this, that's like a very powerful experience. Like, yep, that's anxiety or yep, that's worry. like that, there's a lot of great books like, Worry Says What is one of them where it's like, it like helps you kind of see how worry can, worry talks to you. um Yeah, that's a really good one. um So the first thing I would say is really the validating, like the just naming what they're experiencing. Yeah. I think that's a great first step. I've actually been seeing a lot more content from other parents, like specialist parents, I guess. That's what I'm just gonna call them for right now, that are saying kind of the same thing for how they handle meltdowns and tantrums and disagreements between siblings and stuff like that. And I use that tool actually a lot with my oldest, who's six, um because she gets in disagreements with her two-year-old sisters quite often. And I'll be like, I get that it's frustrating. that's like a valid feeling, you know? So that way she knows that she's not wrong. It just is like a natural feeling. then we approach when she's kind of like calmed down, what's a tool she could use to not get to that point again in the future. And then obviously this is something we have to constantly go over though, because it takes, I read something like a long time ago that said like for toddlers, it takes like over a thousand times of saying something before it starts to even register. And then as it goes, they get older, it's like it goes down just barely. They still do that repeated so much. I think that that's another thing to reframe. It's an important point is that this is we're in this for the long game. And that could be until like, we don't look back on our childhood and think, wow, that was fine until we're like in our 20s. Like, it's really a long time before you like you'll see we see glimmers of moments of kids of things resonating for your kids. like, they're going to be triggered, they're going to have feelings, they're going to have hormones that come up, they're going to, like, there's all this stuff that happens. And so I think sometimes also parents get stuck on, it's not working, and we have to, like, redefine what working means. And I think working actually is a more regulated parent. So to me, a success for this, like, yes, what I see, what we see, and what evidence shows is that the anxiety for the child goes down. But the other part of that progress is actually that the parent is more regulated. And so even if the kid is still going like this, because they're still in a transient time of their life, life, of their brain and their hormones and everything. But the parent understanding, like if you are consistent, that's the work, that's it working. And that's the stability that the kids really need. saying that. like over she's not going to not get frustrated with her sibling like that's like that that would be strange that would be like a strange thing to happen it would be but i don't know though i don't know that place i don't know that world Me either. But yeah, I definitely, I love that first step advice. I think that is really actionable for a lot of parents. And it does take a lot of practice though as a parent to be like, wait on yourself and then be like, what do I actually want to say in this moment? Or how do I actually want to like handle this? Yes, yeah, yeah, totally. does. There's this person online, ADHD dude, uh Brian Wexflat, and he um has an amazing membership for parents of kids with ADHD, and he's also trained in space. But he actually has like a sheet in his membership that's a list that is about um like what to do instead of reacting, like when you, because it takes a lot of work and it's like, pretend you're reading a book. wash the go wash the dishes like you have to like literally coach yourself to do something so that you don't react because like otherwise you're just like ah but I love that he has this list that's like you know pretend you're vacuuming I don't know if that's on the list but like the idea is it gives you something to do while you're like regulating yourself which I like yeah it is yeah just giving us so many different tools, too. This is great. I'm writing them all down. oh skip ahead a couple of questions because you've done so good at answering I feel like a lot of the ones we had on here So what's the difference between a one-off anxious moment and then be basically being diagnosed with anxiety? a great question. When we think of a diagnosis, there's a criteria in the DSM, which is the diagnostic manual that you use for a diagnosis. And so typically, I mean, I don't need to, can't, I'm not gonna read off the criteria, but basically what it would be is how long is it lasting and how much is it impairing? So like, wanna know, what we wanna know is, Are you worried and anxious like as one offs or is this like affecting pieces of your life? Is it getting in the way of pieces of your life? And we also want to know across what avenues like, it only at school? Is it only social? Is it only at home? Is it more generalizable? And then how long, like I said, kind of the duration. So if it happens like once or a few times and then it passes, I wouldn't think of someone as a as having a diagnosis, but if it's been lasting months and there's specific criteria for that, uh then you're more like, oh, I might be in the diagnosis realm of things. And that's why I try to use for the one-offs I try also, it's hard because the word anxiety and anxious just come out of my mouth and in society now it's like regular vernacular. But I try to use the words like worry and nervous, especially with kids. Like I try not to like name everything as anxiety because those one-offs are really, you know, they're their worries, their nerves, their fear, like they don't have to have that. So, but it's about duration and it's about how intense the impact of it is. Okay, well I really, really love that tidbit about naming the emotion something else. Because I feel like kids then feel like they're labeled. know, and I think that about ADHD too. um But once they feel like that, it's like you're putting them in a box. But if you have lots of different names for it, it just kind of changes the whole, like, Yeah. it a little bit, yeah. it's like, we have to normalize a little bit that you can have feelings without having a diagnosis. And the word anxiety has just got, I mean, the word depressed is the same way. Like sadness is not depression. It's not. And so, you know, you really have to be careful when you say certain things, because those are clinical diagnoses. They're not just like flipping words that, but like we use them now, but mostly probably because of social media, we use them all a lot. I mean, there's so many labels. I also think it's important for kids that are, do have anxiety or ADHD or even adults that they can still label that they're able to have other emotions that aren't directly that diagnosis. that's actually a great point because a lot of times too, when something when people come out are starting to come out of a diagnosis. So obviously with certain diagnoses, you might not come out of it. But like if you're experiencing persistent depression, and you're and then you you come out of it and you're healing and you're growing, but then you dip back into sadness. A lot of the work as a therapist is to be like every piece of sadness is not a diagnosis again. And same thing with anxiety. Like, you're not never going to be nervous about something. But if you're you could heal an anxiety disorder, you can recover from them. And so but you might dip, but it doesn't mean that we have to go back to like the full diagnosis. So that like when you like, acknowledging with kids and adults that there's other words, it also gives you a chance to be human instead of being like, well, I'm just a person that has anxiety and see up here it is again, here it is again, like, you know, there's a way to have other emotions. And we bring up that language a lot. is this, like, can we make this a different name so that it's not pathologizing it all the time? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's great because I do think we see a lot especially on social media people like being like I got diagnosed with anxiety now everything's an anxious emotion like me me having this reaction to that that was my anxiety and It's just not real Right, right. Yeah, it's like really also, I mean, there's so much you could say about this because the other thing is like I do a lot of nervous system work. And I studied, I like followed Deb Dana who does like it's called Polly Vagel. And the nervous system work is like fight and fight or flight and getting out of your fight or flight response. And like, it's interesting when you learn about nervous system work, you don't really use words like anxiety, you actually use words more like about what's happening with your nervous system, like shutting down, being dysregulated. Like, so it's interesting because we use these like diagnostic words like anxiety, but like you can use the state you can have other experiences that feel the same that we don't need to name like that. So yeah, it's, it's it's interesting. I don't know how we got here, but it is an interesting one. That that is an interesting one with the clinical language that's been that's thrown around for sure. Mm-hmm. I agree. I use dysregulated a lot. Yeah, I also have been teaching my six-year-old. I'm like, you're dysregulated right now. You need to go, like, we need to go do something to get you regulated. regulated. and it's really valuable. Like nervous system work is so valuable and teaching them that is so empowering. And I think in some ways it can be, yeah. no, go ahead. Well, I was just thinking in some ways it could be, I don't want say more or less, but I think it can be like a more uh like route, like going to the route when you do a nervous system work versus like, my kids have anxiety and now I have to like, um, have this kind of a more of an umbrella approach. But instead it's like, I feel like when you really are in the person and you're like, I am going to regulate and teaching your six year old how to do that, it's going to take, it takes a while for them to be able to do it alone, but it's such a good skill. It is, and actually I've been seeing her because I've been so like consistent with like the language and like what those actions could look like to get her to regulate it again. She's occasionally, not all the time because she's six, been like, ah, I really need to do this tool because I'm feeling this way, you know? And so it's been really great. It's been a more actionable way for me to approach when she's feeling like a big. like wild emotions and stuff for her to kind of get back to a more steady line again. Yeah, that's awesome. Good for you. Actually, let's see. We've been so, like, hopping around a little bit. We do have our outline. But we've kind of hit so many topics. Yeah I know I'd really like to cover a question six yeah, okay yeah. Okay, so so many of us try to rescue our kids from discomfort. Why is the instinct unhelpful in the long run? Like why is discomfort good for our kids to feel? yeah, that's a great one. there's an actual, blah, blah, blah. There is an actual anxiety cycle. So there's a visual that I can, I don't know if it's helpful for me to share it so you can put it in the show notes or something, but you can think of it as a cycle. when you, basically the top of the cycle is like the symptom of anxiety of some sort. So like for, I'm gonna, just cause you brought up your child, I'm gonna use the reassurance question. Go ahead. she is, so the symptom would be constantly asking for reassurance. So constantly asking questions, wanting the answers to feel better. Then the literal next part is the accommodation, which is the rescuing. So it's giving the reassurance. So it's saying like, this is answering all the questions, like who's going to be your teacher and it's going to be okay. And these are your friends are going be in the class and you've been in the building before and blah, blah. So that is like, The idea of like rescuing is like this idea that like you're feeling anxious and I'm going to offer you something that makes you feel less anxious in that moment. So then there's a short term relief. what all that's happened is the anxiety got what it wanted, which was it wanted this relief from not knowing something. Anxiety hates to be uncertain. Anxiety, being anxious is a lack of certainty and a lack of control. And so when we try to give it certainty by saying, here are the answers, we're giving it what it wants, but then it thinks it needs that all the time. So then what happens is you've got this short-term relief from the questions being answered, and then the symptom comes back up, and sometimes often it comes back stronger, especially as they get older. And then they just, the only way for it to go away is, oh, the only way that I can feel better is if I get these answers again. And then just, the cycle just goes and goes and goes. like I said, can, yeah, the thing, the anxiety says, the only way we'll feel better is if we get these answers, you get the answers and then you are able to like keep going. But then you learn, I need that in order to feel better. um And like I said, about it getting worse, like you'll see a kid who like, you know, doesn't wanna play. without you on the playground. So you'll follow them around really closely on the playground. Then all of a sudden they don't want to, then they get older and it's like, they don't want to go to like a birthday party. And they sit next to you the whole time they're at the birthday party. And then you're like, okay, it's fine. Whatever they're young. And then it will become like, they don't want to go to, they don't want to be dropped off somewhere. And then it's like, they're at an age where you're like, oh, I kind of want to be able to drop them off. And then, and then eventually I'm not saying every case is like this, but we see people who are like in the later elementary and middle schools refusing to go to school and having school avoidance. But when we like backtrack it, it like starts a much younger. And so if we can decrease the rescuing at the younger ages, are then we're not, because when we do the rescuing, we're teaching them that they need that, they need that physical presence. And that's how we make them feel better. And then they think, oh, the only way to feel better is to do this. And this isn't a rational thought, this is a survival thought. So the anxiety is survival, it's the amygdala. It's saying like, we need this thing in order to survive. Your parent is giving you this thing. So we have this thing and now we are okay and we will survive. And that's the message it's learned. It's like very primal, it's very basic needs. Like we need something, it makes us feel better, we survived, da-da-da-da-da. What we need to do instead, which is what we teach parents to do, is to decrease the rescuing because when we decrease the rescuing, we're instead sitting with the feeling of, I don't like being uncomfortable. I don't like being uncertain about my upcoming year. But as we know, as adults, being uncertain is part of life. There is no such thing as certainty. Certainty is a myth. It doesn't matter. Like it doesn't matter. You can be married and have your kids and live in a house and blah, blah. And as we know, like things happen, like certainty is a myth. I'm not trying to get everybody to catastrophize their whole life. But my point is, is that even when we think we're certain, we're never like really certain. And so we have to get comfortable with some semblance of, don't know everything. I don't have a crystal ball. And so if we teach our kids, you feel better by me providing you this certainty, which is false certainty, but with certainty, then we're saying that's the way you feel better. So then when they don't have it there, then they can't survive. That's like kind of the primal piece. uh But if instead what we would do is like, if we were doing the space approach, would say, it's really, the language is like, it's really, you're feeling really nervous because you're uncertain about your year next year and it's really hard to feel uncertain. And then you add a confidence piece, which is, and I really believe that you can handle being uncertain. You don't say like, I really believe that it will all be okay and you'll have make friends and blah, blah, blah, blah. You say like this really hard to not know everything. And I really believe we can like learn the skills to be able to handle not knowing. And so, and that then is sitting with them through that discomfort. But then what the skill they use is not the skill they learn is not, Oh, I've gotten what I need to survive. The skill they learn is being uncertain is not unsafe to me. And my mom. my dad and my primary attachment is sending me that message by not rescuing me. And they won't, they don't like it at first. And space has a whole formula. Like we tell them what we're doing. We tell them why we're doing it. We all that, but the reason we don't want to rescue is because it keeps you stuck in that cycle. And I really try to emphasize it. All the cycle gets harder and harder to break as they get older. So we really want kids to like, we really want people to kind of decrease it earlier so that a kid who's like 15, even 18, I mean, now there's a whole thing of failure to launch and like kids are like, I only know how to be okay if I'm kind of rescued. And so that's something we're trying to like decrease because we want to get out of that cycle. I love that. Yeah, that's really good. What are a few everyday phrases or habits that parrots can shift to support independence as we're kind of talking about that cycle? I'll say some provocative, some non provocative and some provocative ones. So, so one is really what I said about the validation, like be naming what you're seeing instead of trying to reassure them or fix it is a really big like daily thing that I mean, I use these like this language all the time. uh Also, the same thing with backing away like so I if a kid is really upset or something I will do things like whisper instead of raise my voice. Or like often, like when I want my kids' attention, I don't yell their name, I whisper their name. So starting to slow yourself down around your kid is also a strategy. And you can do that any day, all day. And you can do it 90 % of the time and yell the other 10%. Like it's fine. We're all human beings and I also do that. But these are just strategies that you can try. So validating the emotion you're seeing is a really important one. Um, and like I said, also decreasing, your escalation is a really important one. So whatever it is that you can do to help you regulate, is a really important one noticing, oh, also, so increasing independence. So the other part of the formula I said, I believe is confidence. So saying, I believe that you can handle X, Y, Z. So starting to think about instead of saying things like you'll be okay, or you'll have fun, or, or instead of like, pushing or trying to rationalize, remembering that believing in them is a strategy. So we often believe in our kids like inside, but Andy, maybe even verbally, but we don't show them that we believe in them. Like we do a lot for them that shows them that we don't really believe in them. Like, so we like, we'll either give them an out for something, like if they want to quit something, which obviously that's nuanced, but like we give them an out when they're anxious, we... Maybe we say, oh you're capable of, or the grocery store with your daughter, Alicia, like you could say like, you're going to take this list. And then you could like follow her around with the list to make sure it was right. Like a lot of people will like say they're giving, they believe in their kid, but then they'll be like double checking and making it. So really showing that you believe in your child, even when they don't do it right, even when they don't get a good grade, even when they like the way you react to all of that stuff, it, reinforces it that you don't think they're capable. oh The more provocative stuff has to do with technology. So like right now we are all tracking our children when they go anywhere. And that messaging, the fact that they have literally trackers on them because we are telling them whether we say it with our words or not that they are unsafe if we do not know exactly where they are. And we need to know exactly where they are. or they will not be okay. And we are doing it in the most like, it's like semi-subtle because people aren't necessarily saying that, but we're tracking them everywhere. so like I, the bigger thing day to day is do they have opportunities to actually be independent and not with a watch on? Like do they have opportunities to do things that are to be out there? and be like, I'm a whole person. I can like go to a store and buy all this ice cream and then be regretful of it and experience regret. And my mom's not gonna be like, okay, you can buy these three things and blah, blah, blah. Like, can they have the full human range of like an experience? um Can they go up to a stranger? I mean, obviously things are different ages, different ages. There's different opportunities for different ages. but like, they go out and like have to ask a stranger what time it is if they don't have like an actual watch or can they have to ask a stranger to use a phone? So one of the ways that we're doing it is in this subtle way of like, you can't ever be somewhere I don't know where you are. And that is a really powerful message we're sending them in a bad way. That's that's that's uh that's really good tips. I mean in our family. We kind of have uh trackers uh And I could see that Yeah, absolutely No, I mean we all Like I have fine friends. But I actually think there's a lot that happens before, like as an adult, it's like so consent, I don't know, there's like a different journey. I mean, I guess we could all explore that too. Why am I in fine friends with all my friends? I don't know. why are you? Do you want to tell the story or not? it was because I worked in real estate, so I would go out to a lot of people's houses. I'd go out to really areas that have low service. And if something happened, which as it can, I wanted somebody to know my last location. a good reason. And I think as an adult, there's a lot of really good reasons. I I don't even I don't know what I'm going to do with my children with trackers. Like I'm just reaching the cusp of all of this. But I think it's worth not just taking it for granted that it's but not that it's benign. I think we have I think we need to be more thoughtful about the concept of like I don't need to know exactly where you are. I don't need to know exactly when you're gonna arrive somewhere. You're allowed to be late. You're allowed to lie to me about where you are. You're allowed to make mistakes. You're allowed to get in trouble. Like these are all things that like we have to do to learn from. uh And so I think that there's things that we do every day that we don't always realize. And it's also, there's also like other things like, um because you asked me, you asked me trying to think of like what led me to this, but you asked me for strategies to help with independence and all of that. Another thing is like how much are people engaging with teachers? Like if my child, like for example, something it's very hard, but like if I have a kid like be upset about something, I most likely, obviously there's nuance, won't speak on their behalf. So like if they forget their homework. where we live in a world where like if my kid forgets something, my teacher reaches out to me because they forgot something. And my response to them is unless this is like life or death, I would rather them get the consequence and they can bring it tomorrow. And obviously there is nuance to that. Like I'm not like crazy, but I'm pretty annoying. I have dropped off a water bottle before. I have dropped off a water bottle because it was on my way. But. But like for the homework thing, like, like I've gotten messages being like, she did really bad on this. So can you blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, I mean, I will definitely try again, but like I didn't take the test. what do you want me to do? Yeah. why I like love all of your content Robin because I'm like you're so real life of like Their problem is your problem. You know I I just love it. I just love it OK. make it? Wait, can I just name one thing? Because I think it's important. With all of this, I have a lot of feelings. So when a teacher says that to me, I get upset and I have those feelings. And the reason I want to say this is because those feelings are mine to regulate. So a lot of times parents will have a feeling like their kid failed something or forgot something or whatever, but they can't regulate their own feeling around it. So they fix it by bringing it. my kid forgot this, so I'm gonna bring it. And I would just encourage, because some people will assume because of maybe my directness that I don't have those feelings, but I do. I was just regulated all week this week because of my kids. I literally have the feelings. but it's about the behavior. The rescuing is the behavior. So don't be scared if you have the feeling, but it's about how do you take care of yourself through that feeling so you don't project that feeling onto your child. Another way this comes up a lot is in social situations. I don't know if your kids are in social situations, but um if they have a conflict with a friend and your friends with the parent of the kid and parents will get involved in these conflicts and all this stuff. And a lot of times that's really out of our own anxiety. The kids are actually like, usually like over it in a day or like they figure it out or they're not friends anymore. And like to them, that's just like fine or life or maybe it's sad, but you talk to them or whatever. But a lot of times the parents will get overly involved because they are uncomfortable that maybe their kid was the mean one or the victim or whatever it was. And so they try to solve it. So think about all the ways that you're like engaging in your kid's life to like regulate yourself. It's like, that's what you want to think about. Like, can you have the feelings and regulate? and not have this constant rescuing and involve. Okay, so on that note, what would you say to the mom who is overwhelmed with all of those feelings on herself and might be blaming herself for these things happening? And or for her child is having anxiety in general? I would say make sure you have the right people around you like friends that are encouraged like some of it has to do with just like self-talk and how we talk to yourselves if they have their own therapist if that is helpful for them or a friend that is really good at reassuring not reassuring but like em Like making sure they're not surrounded by other murders Like, you don't want to be surrounded by people who are like, well, we should all be doing this. And then you're the only one not doing it. And then you're like, I'm, this is all my fault. ah So surrounding yourself with good people, I think is really important. think really being mindful of what you um take in, like in terms of social media content and podcasts and like making sure you're taking in things that are more encouraging and not blamey, but more about like being more um validating to you. um And then I would say some book like really Okay, so if your feelings are telling your feelings and your thoughts are telling you something it's typically not Rational or reality and so I like to also ground yourself in more science based things So like if you read certain books like if you read the book the space the book that's by Ellie Leibowitz who created space Like it will help you feel better about your kid having anxiety because it will show you the science behind like what's happening and how you're actually super empowered to do something and to be able to respond in a different way. So I guess I would start to say like, if you're, gotta break the cycle, the loop in your head about blaming. And sometimes that's through therapy. Sometimes it's through reading a book. Sometimes it's through supportive friends, but like that feeling and thought is not helpful to you or your child. So we gotta like break that. And then there's the classic stuff of making sure you're moving your body. Like there's the regulating stuff, like making sure you're moving your body, taking walks, drinking water, eating enough. Like if you find yourself constantly trying to do things to relieve your overwhelm, like I'm just gonna email this one more teacher or I'm just gonna call this one more person or I'm just gonna do that, then you're probably keeping yourself stuck in the loop. Does that make sense? Yeah. uh no totally all of that makes tons of sense I just I hope this this content is so good All this is such good information I want to go back and touch on some more real-life tips that could help our listeners with going back to school so I want to get your perspective on Routines our routines helpful for anxiety or are they harmful? so I like routines, but I don't. But we know that rigidity is the enemy. So I like flexible routines. I like routines that you do 80 % of the time. So 20 % of the time, you can break it. So like, for example, when my kids were little, and they would have a sleep routine, I was like, I put my kids to bed at a similar time every night. So that so so that a bunch of nights, I don't have to. Like it was like, you do the routine so that they have the security and you can have some normalcy as a family. And even as adults, we enjoy some routine usually. like, if you enter a stage of rigidity, you're teaching your kid that they need to do this in order to be okay. So that's what you wanna be careful about. So if you do have a routine, I would have it be pretty like uh flexible and also not super... complicated. Like for example, I have a routine where I say the way I say goodbye to my kids when they leave the house or when I leave them at school, I have something I say to them. But I say it in a different order every time. I don't always say it at the same as I say at home. Sometimes I say it at school. I also think something else to think about a lot is like, is the routine falling only on one parent? And do you need to take turns or switch it up? So sometimes people have bedtime routines. and it will be like only one parent or we have to switch off every night. And then that becomes like a uh rigid expectation of the child. So you can have a routine. You don't have to be like, I don't even know how you live and not have some sort of routine, cause like things happen, but we want to be like, if something comes up, you want to be able to be a little flexible and you want to model flexibility because like the most important thing to combat anxiety is flexibility. Anxiety is rigid. flexibility is, I can be okay if things change. Okay, I love that you heard it here folks the professional said to not have a rigid schedule We talk about this all the time because we That's how we live our life is like yes with babies You know have a routine have your steps you need to do, but it doesn't have to be by the clock You know nine ten eleven You know what I mean? It's what I said about certainty is a myth. you can't keep up with a rigid routine. It's not possible. Yep, the power will go out. You'll not have something you need in the house. Someone will get sick. Someone always gets sick. Someone's always getting sick. Like, uh you know, so I feel like you can have routines, but you got we got to teach flexibility. That's like a really important modeling not modeling flexibility is a mistake. It's a mistake. Yeah. think it is one of the most important things you can kind of teach your kid is that, know, life's uncertain. You have to be flexible with plans change, people have to cancel, or you have to move to another day, or, you know, and I think it falls into how they're gonna be as an adult, especially, because like, if I was super rigid about everything as a kid and then going into adult where life is chaos, I would be really overwhelmed. Right. and it would be really hard to find a middle ground there. Totally. Totally. I've actually have seen this in person, because my mom was always like, we have what we do, but it's really like, blase. I didn't really have a set bedtime as a kid. I mean, a general idea bedtime, but she was like, ultimately, if you end up staying up super late, it's kind of like your issue, basically. I love that. I love that. Yeah. but she definitely was like, if you're up staying late reading, that's on you. But I have a cousin who had a really rigid schedule. We were the same age, but we, if anything went off track, meltdown. And he couldn't handle it, and he would question it, and is this allowed? And it's definitely followed. them into him into adulthood. I do think that it's an important skill. if you think back to that cycle, I was saying, like rigidity is the accommodation. So the rigid routine is to give anxiety certainty and control. And it's a false sense of that. So like you could do it for so long, but then eventually you're like, but without it, I won't be okay. And so then people keep doing it even to even into their adulthood, but like literally anything can happen. I mean, literally anything, you know. Yeah, yeah, I do think that's important. uh with the transition for back to school and um you know, helping any anxious kids. um, I would say it, the one of the main things is kind of, said, which is what I talk about process, progress, process and not content is that this applies to a lot of things, but it's the idea that you're naming their emotion they're having, you're not preparing so much that they'll be fine. Like they are going to have feelings about going back to school. like, I would say one of the things you want to do is validate that that is expected and normal. Don't promote all these things like routine, social stories, practicing, like all this stuff with the concept of I'm gonna do this and then my kid is not gonna have a hard time. Like that's the thing, like we're not, can't, so a lot of times people will do all these things and then they think, oh, my kid's not gonna have our time and then they have a little bit of a hard time, which is really normal. And then they're like, my God, all these things that like, like it just, it sometimes it's actually about just saying like, yeah, it's really hard to look forward to it. Like look ahead to a new school year. Like sometimes it's like, yeah, that is really hard. Like, so one part of it is really just again, that validating and then saying, I really believe that you can handle when it's really hard. I really believe that you can handle that first day when you're really nervous and you don't know who to talk to. I really believe that you're going be able to handle that and that you're going to be able to maybe find one person you care about or one person you trust or something like that. So it's also really about like doing the validation and confidence around the feeling. It's not about like, let me come up with a formula so that back to school is not hard for you. um Obviously the kind of standards are, do they know the building? Do they, like depending on how old they are, like, do they know the building? Do they know, like also something I wanted to say is em when your kid's asking you a lot of questions, I don't just say don't answer what the... is we don't want to be answering over and over again. So a lot of times I'll do things like answer once and then I'll actually make them a list or like depending on the age you could do like cards or something and I'll give them a tool so that they have what they need. Like, oh, this is your teacher, this is who's in your class, this is the day you start. They can still have the info but we don't want to be constantly having to answer it over and over. So maybe you make a tool like that. And then I do, I want to say I do love social stories, especially depending on the age of the kid. I just don't want people to think that if you read a social story, your kid's not going to have a hard time. But like a social story about going back to school, there's a great app called Courageous Kids. She's on Instagram and she made an app where you can personalize the social stories. And I do really think they're great. I think the thing I struggle with with those is that I don't want people to think that that's like a solution to their anxiety because we're not trying to make anxiety disappear. We're trying to say, you can handle going back to school even while you're nervous. Like, so that's like the goal of what I'm trying to do. Would you think that a tool for when they ask the questions over and over again, and I both kind of practice this where we say we answered that, what did I say? Like having them repeat it back on their own, whatever they got from it. great, that's a great thing. think it, I do think it still keeps you in a loop when you do that because it's not about the feeling. So like, would really, I would really encourage people to be like, you would do that, but then I would really encourage you to say like, it's really hard to feel like you're nervous about, like, that's really like what I would come back to. It's not about like making sure they know the info because the information is not actually important. Like they don't, they're not asking you because there's an answer that's going to make them resolved. Like they need to experience the first few days before they can be resolved or the first month or the first, you know. So you can totally ask them to do that, but I don't, because I don't think that's what anxiety really is wanting or like really is, that's not like what's helpful to it. um It's just, think another version of the loop. Unless you do that and then they stop asking, then great, you figured it out. Like, I'm happy for people with that. stops asking once I do that. Yeah, it works for her because she's like, you're right. I do know that information. I need new questions. so if if that works for that situation I don't want to tell people like every single thing you do is like a whole bad like it's like great It's just not what is actually helping the anxiety. That's what that's what like the separation is Yeah, exactly like yes, and also it's hard to have those feelings pop up and those questions pop up and all that stuff and then it's like what can you do and then it focuses on like What can you do? And you go back to like, when I have those questions, instead of coming and asking, instead of us talking about it, maybe we like do jumping jacks or like take a walk around the house or do something that makes us feel more regulated. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like that. All right, well awesome. Robin, can our listeners that live in any different state work with you on free with your space coaching or would they need to find someone local to them? There's different ways to do it. but there's a, so you can reach out to, so I'm at theanxiouschild.com and you can reach out to me for space coaching. And then if for some reason it wasn't the right fit, I can direct you to the website that will give, that gives the practitioners across the country and there's it's international. And then also for me, if you want to learn about space as a digital, like a more of a digital way, kind of a self-paced is I have a membership and then I have monthly office hours and that applies to anyone. If you're just kind of like, I want to know what these tools are, but I'm not ready to work with someone one on one. And that's all on my website too. coming out with a podcast soon and I'm coming out with a podcast soon of months, Robin's podcast will come out and it's going be called Do Less Parenting. So if you all want to tune in and listen to that, make sure to follow her on Instagram as the We'll have that linked in the show notes, Yeah, follow me there. yes, absolutely her content is amazing. It's just so good. I just think it's amazing. Oh, thank you. Thank you. That makes me so happy. wrap up. oh reminders and some good tips and hints and uh a great list of places to go get more information. I will try to share all of those when this comes out. So keep an eye on our stories, particularly is where I will most likely put all this information. um But ultimately, what we came out out of this with is you're doing enough and sometimes doing less is honestly doing more. So you're doing a powerful thing by backing off sometimes. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. being here, Robin. Thanks.