The Offshore Energy Podcast
Offshore energy and ocean innovation in the United States is transforming the way we power our nation. Join our hosts Ian Voparil and Jim Bennett as they discuss current events, innovation, technology, and the future of the offshore energy ecosystem.
With decades of combined experience, these two industry veterans bring a unique blend of expertise, humor, and captivating stories from the high seas of offshore energy innovation.
Whether you’re an industry expert or just starting to learn about offshore energy, The Offshore Energy Podcast provides a platform for meaningful conversation and exploration. Tune in to enhance your understanding and stay updated on the latest advancements in this exciting field.
Let’s embark on this journey together!
The Offshore Energy Podcast
Aye to Energy! Scotland’s Balancing of Industry, Environment, and Energy Security in the North Sea.
In this illuminating conversation with Reuben Aitken, Managing Director of Energy Transition at Scottish Enterprise, we explore how Scotland has positioned itself at the forefront of offshore energy evolution. "We've got this natural resource of offshore wind and history of innovation that dovetail and make such a difference," Aitken explains, highlighting how Scotland's challenging weather has become its greatest asset.
The numbers are staggering – over 40 gigawatts of offshore wind under development, including the massive 4.1 gigawatt Berwick Bank project that could power six million homes. But what makes Scotland's story truly compelling is how they've leveraged their oil and gas expertise to pioneer floating wind technology.
We dive deep into the economic opportunities this transition creates, with each gigawatt of development representing approximately £1 billion in supply chain potential. From Japanese cable manufacturers setting up in the Highlands to former oil rig workers managing wind farms, Scotland demonstrates how energy evolution creates rather than destroys opportunities when managed thoughtfully.
The President of the United States, John F Kennedy, said on Wednesday that he would continue to pursue the development of ocean energy, including offshore wind.
Speaker 2:Many countries around the globe continue to aggressively pursue the development of ocean energy, including offshore wind. One example is our neighbors to the north in Canada, where four new wind energy areas have been identified off the coasts of Nova Scotia. Coincidentally, nova Scotia means New Scotland, but Old Scotland across the pond has been at this for quite some time. Scotland serves as a leader in both offshore oil and gas, as well as offshore wind. Let's take a look at what's going on in Scotland now on this episode of the Offshore Energy Podcast. I'm Jim Bennett and I have over 40 years of experience developing energy in the ocean.
Speaker 3:I'm Ian Vopero and I've spent the last 20 years developing offshore energy projects around the world, and this is the Offshore Energy Podcast.
Speaker 2:Hello.
Speaker 3:Ian hey Jim, Long time no see. Happy summer.
Speaker 2:It's been a while. It's been a great summer. It was great to see you up in Maine very briefly a month or so ago. Wonderful to visit Maine, as it always is. I feel the same way and.
Speaker 3:I live here. How's your summer been going, Jim?
Speaker 2:And I live here. Yeah, how's your summer been going, jim? Very good, staying very busy. I don't know if I've mentioned this on the podcast, but I'm working at the College of Staten Island on workforce development for offshore wind, and it's very interesting times in that arena. What's new with you?
Speaker 3:Well, we are enjoying summer here in Maine, my oldest son's home from college. It's really nice to have him around and we've been spending as much time as we can out in Casco Bay in the beautiful Gulf of Maine. You know, for me, Jim, getting on the water is such a nice part of living here and such a nice part of who I am. It's been really a great summer for that Fishing, a little bit of sightseeing, and I'll tell you we found this secret spot where a lot of seals haul out Really. So that's one of our destinations now. On the boat we head out there and we see how many seals have hauled out. I don't know if there are great whites around, but shark tracking tells us they are. So I'm glad they've got a spot to haul out and it's really interesting to see so many collected together right here off the coast of Maine.
Speaker 2:Years ago we were up there with the family I think it was Booth Bay Harbor and it was the first time I saw a seal right outside, right there in the water, right there inside in the harbor.
Speaker 3:Well, it's been great, and Jim you know this energy system that we follow and we talk about. There's a lot going on there too. How are you, how are you thinking? What are you thinking about in all of this change, and quite significant change?
Speaker 2:I'm thinking about the long term. I'm thinking about where are we going to be in a few years, because a few years is not as far away as people think. And as we work our way through the issues that we're currently dealing with, I think we need to keep in mind that the larger forces over the long term are going to be moving in the direction of energy development, because the demand is that high, and for that reason, I think we're very fortunate today to have an individual from the Scottish Institute I'm sorry, what's the term again Ruben? Scottish Enterprise, scottish Enterprise, scottish Enterprise A country that, like the United States, has both a very strong oil and gas offshore industry as well as an offshore wind industry.
Speaker 3:It's great to get a view from across the pond. Thank you, Ruben. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much, ian. Jim, great to be with you guys. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you and to get, hopefully, some messages out to your listeners too. So I'm Ruben Aitken. I'm the Managing Director of the Energy Transition and International Operations at Scottish Enterprise. Scottish Enterprise is Scotland's national economic development agency, so we're all about helping Scottish companies to scale, to innovate and to internationalize to transform the Scottish economy. So my job is basically bringing the best of the world's companies to Scotland and taking the best of the world to Scotland.
Speaker 3:I love it. Oh, sounds great and what a great place to do that. Into Beautiful Scotland. Let's see the beautiful Highlands. Great Scotch whiskey, sean Connery. Maybe I'll save that for later, but you know some interesting things. That's great. It's great to have you join us and, ruben, you know this is the Offshore Energy Podcast. Jim and I have a lot of experience in the offshore energy industry both oil and gas and renewables and particularly offshore wind and you know, tell me and help our listeners understand the role that Scotland's played in the development of offshore energy for the last few decades.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure, and it's a history we're really proud of, but maybe we don't kind of crow about as much as we should. And when you talk there about what you think of, when you think of Scotland, you think of maybe the Highlands, the Glens, the kind of whiskey, all the good stuff, shortbread, tartan, plaid is it called plaid in the US All that good stuff. But you might not think about our kind of energy heritage. And I guess for me, me what's really interesting is um, you were talking about nice holidays there off off the coast, in in Maine, and if you're listening to this from maybe the sunny west coast in in California or down in Houston and it's all humid at the moment. Um, you know Scotland, you're not going to come to Scotland for your sunny summer holidays. Right, I'm going to break it to you now it's, it's.
Speaker 2:We're not going to come to Scotland for your sunny summer holidays.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm going to break into you now. It's. It's. We're never going to be a world leader in solar PV, right, that's, that's not going to be our niche. Um, and and that's quite a good job, because you think about what China have done to the kind of costs of PV. You know the massive cost reductions 90 percent between 2010 and 2020 um, we weren't going to win that market but, my god, we got a load of wind.
Speaker 1:And that's what's really exciting about the scottish opportunity is, I think it's playing to your fundamentals and playing to your strengths, and if you've ever tried to play golf in scotland, then you'll. You know, I'm sure you've blamed the wind for a load of things that happened to your, to your golf balls, um, and so I think what's really exciting, we've got this, this sort of fundamental wind resource, and as a, as a country you know, both scotland and the uk we've always looked, uh, been outward looking. We've always looked to the sea, you know, from, from our history of fishing, from kind of history of going around the world, being a naval power, we've always looked to the water, and so the the idea of offshore wind and floating offshore wind builds on this, this history that we've got and from from my point of view, there's there's also an amazing history of innovation and those two things this natural resource of, of offshore wind, serious resource of offshore wind and history of innovation that dovetail and make such a difference for us and our ability to kind of show up on the global stage. And and I think I've heard on your podcast before kind of you, if you go into offshore energy, you know, be that oil and gas, be that renewables, you've got to like knotty problems right, you've got to like kind of challenge and you've got to enjoy that stuff. And I think also that's a kind of great Scottish characteristic um, I don't know if it's the long dark nights where we're kind of drinking whiskey and trying to solve the world's big problems, um, but it's kind of it's in there in our kind of DNA and I love this.
Speaker 1:So Voltaire, right, the French philosopher, he said we look to Scotlandotland for all our ideas of civilization, right, and so this, this was a long time ago, but we, you know, I've got that tattooed and so I think that's kind of really exciting because, um, you've got this, this history of thinkers.
Speaker 1:So, david hume, um, you've got adam smith, the father of modern economics, james, what the kind of reinvented the steam engine, um, and you've got this, this great kind of appetite for innovation in our history, uh, and then you've got this north sea oil and gas heritage.
Speaker 1:So we're like we're really proud of, of our oil and gas strengths, like we were the capital of europe, um, I know that will cause all sorts of people to write and say, no, you weren't. You know what about us, but we claim this is the aberdeen, the capital of oil and gas in europe, and we were really good at dealing with some of the challenges in the north sea, some of those kind of deep waters, those difficult conditions, and then we took that, those expertise and skills around the world, and I can see us doing exactly the same in offshore wind, um, and I think the the transition though you know we talk about the transition and the skills there's. There are some real synergies, um, but the exciting thing is that we have got a kind of strong alignment in the policy landscape. We've got some really clear targets, although I remember one of your previous episodes about targets and whether they they they make the difference or not, um, so we've got some really clear targets. We can dive into that?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, we can get into that and then we've got um, we've got this commitment and this huge pipeline. So at the moment we've got over 40 gigawatts of of offshore wind under development in Scotland and that's that's kind of top 10 world, world market kind of thing. That's that's serious and the excitement for me that comes from that is um the huge economic opportunity that it brings as well.
Speaker 1:So there's a huge prize for us to go after in this wind market, and we've got the expertise, we've got this history of innovation and for me they all come together in offshore energy. So that's why I'm so excited to be here today.
Speaker 2:I've got to mention from a US standpoint that, as our program developed a good 20 years after you all in Europe were developing the offshore wind program, we were looking and we still do look, of course to Europeans to develop that program and we really looked like we were going to be moving way out ahead in terms of activities all over the place. That's not so much the case right now and in fact we are again looking to countries like Scotland to continue to serve as the leaders in the offshore wind arena and looking to them to help us continue to move forward in that direction.
Speaker 3:Us continue to move forward in that direction. And, Ruben, I just wanted to add to, I think, so much of the adventure of the history of Scotland and the pursuit of energy and creativity we share. You know, as an American, that certainly resonates with me personally too, and I think those who know me know that it resonates very deeply with me personally, especially the offshore side of that. People have heard me say on the podcast before I love that. I have so much salt in my blood. It's something that really excites me and I've personally been able to experience the adventure of solving difficult, challenging offshore energy developments around the world and I show pride myself on the people I did it with and the innovations and the way that we were able to overcome challenges to do it responsibly. So you know, it's great to have you out here. I think we're kindred spirits and maybe after this we'll, you know, grab a virtual scotch together, but we have this podcast to do so. Pardon me.
Speaker 3:And Ruben, I did want to mention too. You mentioned Aberdeen, and you know we of course think Houston is our, the headquarters of energy in the US, and maybe we'd claim the world too is in Houston. But I've been to beautiful Aberdeen and I've been to the beautiful Granite City and I've been there on sunny days, which is even better, where the mica is glistening in the buildings and it looks spectacular. Tell us a little bit more about Aberdeen and what this means to the people of Aberdeen as we go through this. And I'll say maybe energy addition right now, not just energy transition. There's an opportunity here for all of the different types of energy to be developed that create these economic benefits responsibly. So how does it feel there on the ground?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think that's that's a really interesting framing. The energy, energy addition. It's certainly something I'm hearing more about as I kind of go around the world and talk to partners about what the future of energy is and you just see the demand ramping up globally. You see kind of data centers and other things coming on hungry for power. So I do think energy addition is a really interesting framing. But I guess from our point of view the pace of change is really interesting.
Speaker 1:So, kind of you know, there are dwindling oil and gas reserves in the North Sea and what's really exciting for us is if we look to the future of offshore wind, particularly as we look to the future of floating offshore wind, amazing skills in the Aberdeen region and these folks who have done stuff in you know the challenging marine conditions. It's very salty, it's very wet, it's very difficult out there and it's deep and the water's choppy. There's slightly more technical engineering, but if you look at some of the stuff that we've been able to do with kind of engineering expertise rooted out of Aberdeen, we are going to need to do that on floating offshore wind and I think what's really exciting is Scotland does have this history of going first and you know we're a small country with five and a half million people.
Speaker 1:But the first deep water offshore wind project was Project Beatrice 45 meters, I count that as deep. I know there will always be a bit of debate as to what is?
Speaker 1:deep and then we had high wind back in 2017, which was the kind of world's first floating wind farm, and I think when we see this increased, you know the resource.
Speaker 1:You have to go after the resource, and the resource is the wind that is out there in deep waters, and we're going to need some really clever engineering solutions to substructures, to anchors, to mooring systems and and who's got those right? It's all these guys who've been working in the oil and gas industry, who've been doing this stuff day in, day out and are absolutely fantastic about it, um, and so what we're trying to work out is how we can transition some of that skills and expertise into the industry to to make sure it's cost effective, it's done safely and to give us confidence that we could carry on leading um in our own way in the in the energy sphere. Um, even just like last week we had our, one of our agencies was launching a kind of fund to help folks with those skills, because I've heard on the podcast before people with their ring binders full of kind of qualifications and skills to operate in these environments, right, um.
Speaker 1:And there's a bit of a leap here, because the pace at which offshore wind is developed is is by regulatory kind of decisions, driven by political decisions, and so there's always a nervousness, I think, for folks of saying, look, I'd love to stay in the Granite City.
Speaker 1:You know, maybe the football team will come again and maybe it will be.
Speaker 1:You know the happy place that it has been before.
Speaker 1:Um, but actually some of the oil and gas projects I could go and develop in, you know, brazil or the middle east or you know further afield, they're quite appealing and so what we've got to do is make offshore wind a really exciting energy industry for them to to be part of um. And the other thing is is I'm quite one of the reasons I love the the nature of the discussions you guys have on this podcast is too often kind of renewables and oil and gas are put in opposition to each other, whereas actually if you've got the skills and the expertise to do sort of planning and consenting and engineering solutions and the stuff with vessels, then actually you're going to be servicing both of these industries as they kind of ebb and flow over the coming decades and Jim talked at the start about a long term perspective, and that's what we need to have both of these industries as they kind of ebb and flow over the coming decades. And Jim talked at the start about a long-term perspective and that's what we need to have.
Speaker 1:We need to have that long-term perspective, where we harness the skills that are there in Aberdeen and bring them to bear in the renewables.
Speaker 2:Our experience here in the US very much parallels what you're talking about. There. We've got, of course, a very strong offshore oil and gas industry in the Gulf of Mexico, and a couple of examples include the first offshore wind farm, block Island, off of Rhode Island. We were able to make use of the fabrication yards in the Gulf of Mexico and the expertise associated with oil and gas in order to develop the foundations and barge them around, and we've got shipbuilding going on an installation vessel, of course, and these are examples of where the two industries can be synergistic and they work together, and tapping into the resources of one helps to develop the other in a very positive way.
Speaker 3:And Jim and Ruben. I really appreciate this conversation. You know, jim, full disclosure. I do feel like offshore energy in particular, and renewables, and particularly here in the US, is suddenly very political and there's a lot of policy change going on at the federal level which, you know, disincentivizes investments in renewables, and you know, that's something for another podcast where we can dive deeper.
Speaker 3:But so much of energy is also about people. You know energy isn't a wedge issue we all use or political wedge issue. We all use energy. You know energy is expensive. We need to be more affordable. Energy can create opportunities, not destroy opportunities, when done properly. But ultimately this is about people, you know, and the fact that people or I should say you know, like we talk about this energy transition, like we're turning something on and something off, right, but people are the things that carry through. With good foresight, we can plan to capture more benefits for more people as we go through the adjustments in the energy system that make sense for the time. And we've all got great natural resources and wind is certainly a very interesting one and, you know, hopefully offshore wind here again too. But I just I really love the way that you said that, because it's so much wider than just investment. You know this is, and each of us here you know, jim and I, and you, ruben, sitting here we are each personally involved in energy.
Speaker 2:That point about people is a really good one, ian, but I do note when you say it's suddenly very political. It's always been very political. What's different now? I mean the people involved and the people processes that are associated with the development of the program have been very, very strong over the years. The difference now is that the particular policies are very, very different than what we've been dealing with in the past. But having said that, ruben, maybe you could tell us a little bit about your experience with regard to the transition if I can use that term the addition or the movement, the conversion, if you will, towards wind energy in Scotland, and during that time you know we had a lot of political and social interaction and conflict, if you will. What was your experience with regard to that kind of upheaval in Scotland, as the energy addition has been going on?
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks, jim. So I think there's been a kind of you know, climate emergency declared in Scotland. I think we were the first country to declare that. You know we are going to get to net zero by 2045. And that's kind of been a north star, but it's sometimes had some choppy waters along the way. There's been changing in kind of political administrations at the UK level as well and we're not immune to what happens further afield in kind of global decision making. You know that adds to regulatory risk, it adds to the cost of capital ultimately for projects.
Speaker 1:When you see there's this changing landscape and we have seen a really strong push towards offshore wind, and it just makes sense like if you look at Europe it's. You know, I go for my summer holidays down in the south of Europe where it's sunny, and I kind of stay and do nice hiking and wintry things up in the north of Europe where it's windy and beautiful, and I think that kind of the fundamentals don't change right, the fundamentals, the European fundamentals of that. And then you need to interconnect, right. You need to interconnect and have a kind of system that works. And one of the things I think is always really interesting I kind of bring it back to the basics of geography.
Speaker 1:Is population density so kind of? In Scotland we've got 70 people per kilometre squared. In the UK we've got 483 people per kilometre squared, and so actually onshore wind was much more kind of popular I don't know if it's ever really popular but you know it was much more kind of had more public support, I think, scotland, than it did in in the wider uk. Um, and one of the reasons that you know the push to offshore wind was so kind of pronounced was that the uk for england anyway said they weren't going to pursue any more kind of onshore wind projects and so you could see this huge resource again out in the sea on our doorstep that we could go after that's changed now and they're back to kind of um allowing onshore wind projects.
Speaker 1:But there have been some hiccups in the in the uk, even though the journey has been kind of clear about the overall direction um. So I think the, the journey towards offshore wind now has sort of been reignited. So the current political um administration of the uk have targeted this clean power 2030 agenda um, and they've set out really clearly the amount of uh kind of gigawatts that they expect to be deployed. Um, and we've got this you know, electoral cycle, so they'll be in power for the next five years and that gives a sort of stability to the agenda. And you couple that with what's happening at the Scottish political level, which is a really strong long lasting commitment to the offshore wind system, to the renewable system, and it gives everyone a chance to kind of get the fundamentals of the grid, the consents and all that stuff, all that stuff going. So that's that's hugely important because you need those sort of anchors of stability around the political decisions so that you can get on, because these projects don't don't come forward overnight, right, they're, they're, they're, they're naughty, they're, they're tricky, um. So the last year, I think, the uk closed its final coal fire power station. That's only last year, right, and and now we're seeing, we think, an investment program, um, and this is sort of averaged out but over the next six years across the uk, of 40 billion pounds per year. And that's because they're thinking, you know, it could be for 50 gigawatts of offshore wind. It could be 27 29 on gigs of onshore wind and a big slug of solar as well. You know, 45 gigs of of solar, which will really reduce our fossil fuel dependency. And the interesting thing is how we get that flexibility in the system. So what's the long-term storage solutions? What's the short-term kind of battery solutions to enable us to integrate that power and balance out that intermittency?
Speaker 1:And certainly in Scotland, by 2030, we're wanting 50% of our energy needs, not electricity, our energy needs, you know heat, transport, all that stuff to be met by renewables. And what's so exciting is we have the resources right. So, kind of the the you know some of your listeners have been to scotland but kind of the the worst day in winter, right, where we're all hunkered around the fire and we've got that warm whiskey on and the tartan blanket and we're kind of comforting ourselves about thinking the dark nights. What are we going to do? What problem are we going to solve? And that that's about five gigs of peak demand at the moment, and even if you electrify loads of heat and transport.
Speaker 1:What I said at the start was there's a pipeline of over 40 gigs of offshore wind being developed. So we are going to power the the uk with this stuff, as long as we get the transmission connections in place, um, and hopefully we'll attract some, some industry that wants to do stuff in a green, green way, and also I think we'll go after hydrogen production as well in a big way, um, and there's a bit around being able to power, you know, some of europe through that as well. So I think, from from our point of view, there is this, this journey and this transition um that we're on, or addition that we're on, um, and it's got some really clear parameters, some clear kind of policy and regulatory parameters to it.
Speaker 2:I think you're you're making a great point about, uh. Uh, it's very exciting that, uh, not only is the challenge out there, but we have the resources, and you have the resources in Scotland and we're very, very blessed here in the US to also have the resources. So we're hoping things again over the long term are going to be moving back in that direction direction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you look at the fundamentals of geography, right, you've got areas where there's a lot of wind and a lot of population density and then some big mountains I'm a simple kind of guy, so there's a sort of there's where are you going to get the power? Right? It's kind of, and if we can keep that cost reduction coming down, you know, I don't think it'll keep coming down forever. Right, it levels off at some point the levelized cost of energy, um, and we've seen a bit of a kind of stabilization of that. But I do think the fundament is hard to disagree with the fundamentals of geography and the landscape when, when people need energy. But sometimes there's sort of circuitous routes that you get there and it can take some time there are also what's been, so what's been happening recently in Scotland?
Speaker 1:So, most recently, I think, the probably biggest excitement that we've had in and I'm pretty confident that guys who listen to your podcast will also find this exciting. But this sort of thing where you get home and you tell your other half about it's not necessarily the things that they get as excited about, but we've had a big consenting decision right um so could you explain consenting, because I think it's very not everybody fully appreciates that here we don't use that term we use a different term
Speaker 1:oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, so, um. So the sort of process more or less is um, you, we kind of auction off the seabed, um, and then, uh, there's a kind of load of projects that get developed and then it's a planning decision really. So what happens is they then put in their application and they get granted a consent and then, once they've got that consent, they can put in an application for a contract for difference and the contract for difference sets that strike price that they've got then a kind of guaranteed level of revenue they can be confident about getting. So that's the sort of basics of the of the UK market.
Speaker 1:There's a few wrinkles, a few complexities. You know they've changed some of the rules recently around the CFD, so actually some projects without consent might be able to apply and they're kind of constantly iterating. This one is fascinating. Things of like, how much do you iterate and evolve this regime to make it better, um, what it's? The same time give stability and certainty to investors. So I'm constantly talking to these guys in in the, you know, the corridors of power and whitehall saying you know, I really want stability for the investors that we're talking to. But if you could just tweak this one thing it would really help these projects get over the line and they're like, well, you can't have both, and so the big, the big project is Berwick Bank.
Speaker 1:So Berwick Bank it's off the east coast um of Scotland, uh, and it's 4.1 gigs, so 4.1 gigawatts of of clean power and it's so it's one of the world's largest offshore wind opportunities and we think you know I could power six million homes.
Speaker 1:It's kind of ballpark figure and again the huge opportunity for the supply chain right. So kind of for each gigawatt of development there's about a billion pounds worth of supply chain to go after. Um, and this comes back to that people point that we were talking about earlier. Um, for me there's a lot around collaborating here, like so we've got to collaborate to compete on a global stage, and whether that's collaborating with folks who've got that oil and gas expertise or collaborating internationally with other partners, we're seeing increasing kind of global consortia being put together and increasing global interest in scotland.
Speaker 1:You know companies are coming here either because of slowdown in their their own market or because they're seeing a real opportunity and so they're saying, wow, you know, we want to develop where it's got good, like floating offshore resource in the future, like japan, right, they've got very deep water, a lot of wind offshore, quite dense population around that coastal belt, and so you've got Japanese companies coming to Scotland and saying we're going to you guys are kind of out in front, we're going to come and work with you, do really exciting projects here, and then we'll take all that expertise back and do it, do it at home, and that's that's brilliant, right. That's kind of collaborating to to kind of make sure that these technologies are a success. Um, so, yeah, so I was very excited about the concerning decision. My other half was less excited when I bounced into the room and said you'll never believe what's happened. Um, but, um. But you know, I try to make sure that other people are as excited as I am about this industry well, the victories come, coming small ways, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Go ahead, no worries.
Speaker 3:Jim Ruben, you know for our listeners I think many of them get it but a four gigawatt offshore wind farm, that's the size and scale of multiple nuclear facilities, right, that is a massive energy development. And it's really interesting that you talk about the potential export, you know, of technology and talent at some point in the future too. You know where else is really interesting deep water that will require floating technology. Just a couple miles away from me in the Gulf of America, and I'll tell you, being out there on a small boat, I can get into 180 to 300 feet of water awfully quickly. So it's really I would say it's right in that prime zone where floating is required, but not ultra deep floating.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of the part of the East Coast here of the United States that's suitable for that too. Of course, the West Coast of the US you get ultra deep awfully quick, right. They're talking another order of magnitude depth in the same kinds of distances. So, yeah, there's clearly opportunities for floating technology development in lots of different places and I think that's a great opportunity for collaboration in the future with multinational companies and technology developers. So this is part of your job, I know, but there's certainly a good trade opportunity that'll be here at some point between our countries in the future.
Speaker 1:Definitely no, exactly. And I think the interesting thing about some of the slowdown that we've seen in the development of the US kind of project is what does that mean for their ambitions? Because you've got folks who've got really good business strategies, have built up the skills and expertise and I'm thinking, come on over right, there's a whole market over here in Europe and we're we're wanting some of that skills and that kind of know how, um, and you know, when you guys do it in the US you do it well, when you do it properly, so kind of that. There's an opportunity, I think, for for more of that to happen. Um, and we are seeing, you know. So there's a recent example.
Speaker 1:So sumitomo, right, this amazing japanese um manufacturer of hvdc, uh cable, has set up in the highlands of scotland and again, like we talked about the highlands earlier, right, you're thinking you know, you know the beauty, the locks, all that good stuff.
Speaker 1:You're not thinking high-end manufacturing, engineering solutions, hundreds of millions of investment, hundreds of people being employed making HVDC or you know other array cables, potentially. That's what's happening as part of this transition and I'm sure you know part of their strategy, I guess, will be being really well placed when that is happening the world over, in Japan and beyond, and we're seeing more and more of that. So there's a really exciting opportunity. And that comes back to that collaborate to compete thing. We're wanting to grow our own. We're wanting to kind of support innovative companies, start scale ups, you know, taking on this market, wanting to folks pivot in in from the oil and gas uh sort of landscape. But also, if there's global leaders out there, we want them to come and work in scotland and to be a successor, you know and we're small, small enough as a kind of nation.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to say we're small, but we're kind of strategically concentrated. I think is what my marketing guys would make me say. It's concentrated rather. So we're kind of strategically concentrated enough that it's quite easy to do business here right, because you can get the right folks around the table in a room and there's a real buy-in and an appetite to make stuff happen which I think we I think we should come back to this, but in recent news on this side of the water, it's not as optimistic.
Speaker 2:Our president has been there in Scotland and he has made some comments, and a lot of it revolves around golf. You mentioned golf earlier and, aside from the fact that we have synergies with the oil and gas industry, you have synergies with the oil and gas industry and a great future for offshore wind. First off, first question is these vistas that are so important with regard to golf? Are they affected by this Berwick Bank decision?
Speaker 1:So they do not affect the golf courses that the president is most concerned about. No, they are.
Speaker 2:They're slightly different. They're in a different location, which is probably a good, probably a good thing to get that information out there and of course, uh, of course you all invented the game of golf, so you have some insight there as well. But, uh, what has been the reaction of the people of scotland, and if you could talk more generally, generally, to the way we're making these pronouncements and moving forward or not moving forward, with the wind industry in the US?
Speaker 1:So one of the critical things is that we need to make the wind industry a success for people.
Speaker 1:Right, we need to make sure that we're able to make the wind industry a real success for people on the ground and they feel that and I think at the moment we could always do better at that.
Speaker 1:We could always think about community benefit and how we kind of make the folks who are going to have to see these wind farms and to have the transmission cables running past their places of work and business and homes. We can always do more in that in that space, um, but I think there is a recognition of the economic opportunity as well and there's an increasing number of people working in kind of transmission, distribution, energy system management or out there on the wind farms themselves. I was out there not long ago and there were some guys who'd you know, who had been working on on the rigs all their days and, uh, they were now working on in the control room managing some offshore wind uh projects and and they were sort of saying it's pretty cushy life and I've got like a plate of biscuits and uh and kind of managing the system, it's kind of slightly preferable to when I was more windswept out there on the rigs.
Speaker 1:So that's not everyone's experience, right, but there is some opportunities there and we need to tell the story of it and get people to be part of it. So they're much, it's much better off. The best advocate is someone saying, oh, I like that project because my mum works on it or my auntie or my dad works on it. That's, that's kind of that's real. Um, there are always concerns around wildlife, nature, you know birds there's, there's a lot, a lot of work being done around that at the moment. You know I'd be remiss not to to acknowledge that and I think you know there's a lot around how you can do kind of effective nature restoration or kind of manage the impacts and getting that balance right between different marine users. And you know, with your background in biome, you've experienced all these challenges of kind of the different economic impacts and the different environmental impacts of different projects. So so there's a lot in that space.
Speaker 1:But I think there's a recognition about the scale of the opportunity for Scotland and that this is this is our chance and the thing that we've got to go after as well. And look there's the US is our most important trading partner. The US is the biggest source of inward investment into Scotland. It's a single country, it's there, and some of the best businesses actually that I know in Scotland run kind of co-run or co-founded by Scots and US counterparts. There's a real, I think, an amazing synergy between Scotland and the US in terms of business mentality and, ian, you mentioned a bit of that earlier, but again, there will also be some areas where there's political disagreement.
Speaker 1:Us in terms of business mentality and, ian, you mentioned a bit of that earlier, but again, there will also be some areas where there's political disagreement. Right, we, we've got to go after the energy resources on our doorstep and that means going after offshore wind, and there is political commitment to that um, both at the uk level and at the scottish level, um, and so we are. We are kind of four square behind that um, lining up after that opportunity. So, yeah, so there have been some pronouncements, as you're well aware of recently in the media. The president isn't a fan of windmills, as he calls them, right, but from our point of view, yeah, that's a policy which I don't see changing anytime soon yeah, well, that's that.
Speaker 3:And you know, ruben, it sounds like you've listened to the podcast, so thank you very much for being one of our listeners. Uh, but you know, we we always talk about the requirements for long-term policy to help, you know, stepwise develop a series of projects and opportunities that make sense when all of this other associated infrastructure also takes time, like ports and transmission and interconnection, and so you know that stability and policy is one of the things that Jim and I are wrestling with, sometimes right now here in the US.
Speaker 3:But with that eye to the future, ruben and I'll tell you my background I am so interested in floating wind as a former oceanographer and now player in the energy industry. You've mentioned a couple of things that have long been on my radar, like high wind. Could you tell us a little bit more about the portfolio of floating projects and technologies, where Scotland is really taking a very active role at the front of the world's development?
Speaker 2:Again. Scotland is a leader in this area and we need to learn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and I think you know maybe it relates to the last thing we've said but the further you take these things away from populations, there's challenges in terms of the transmission connection, but also maybe there's a bit more acceptance because you don't see them from your golf course as much, because it's, you know, quite a long way out to see.
Speaker 1:so who knows, who knows, maybe this is there's a balance to find it it's, it's the way I get there, um, so, uh, I think there's a real opportunity here for us. Um, and high wind, back in 2022, based on its first five years of operations, was named as, like one of the world's best performing um wind farms, and I think that kind of sparked a lot of excitement about, about offshore, floating offshore, and because the distances you can go, you can really target that, that resource. From our point of view, there's still a load of innovation to be done and that's really exciting. Uh, you've got almost too many substructure designs at the moment.
Speaker 1:You know you give you give engineers, clever engineers, difficult engineering problems and they come up with all sorts of different permutations. Uh, so there's a really exciting bit now of how do you foster innovation, cost reduction whilst balancing the need for standardization, because that will also drive your cost reduction, your mass production. You know your rems can get in there and really nail this. So we're having fascinating conversations with folks who are saying that they're going to do steel foundations, other folks doing concrete foundations and the designs you look through these things you don't want all of these look like they might work. This is incredible, um, but I think the industry needs to again, as we were saying earlier, that collaborate to compete. We need folks to come together and probably standardize a little bit more without stifling innovation, get behind a few designs and that will lead to it going off at pace.
Speaker 1:And the exciting thing that we've got, I guess, at the moment, is not just the kind of Scottwind leasing round that I've talked about, so not just the Scottwind projects. That big pipeline we've also got and I think this might be kind of not the best branding. It's called Intoc, which is kind of one of those things where you know, get civil servants to name things and they always end up called those sorts of things, but it's innovation and I used to be a civil, so I used to work in the Department of Energy and Climate Change way back when, so I'm guilty of this myself. I used to be an energy regulator, so I've often called things awful acronyms or initialisms, but it's innovation and targeted oil and gas and this is about how do you decarbonize those oil and gas platforms that we're going to need you know they're not going anywhere in the short term and can we use their power demand to drive innovation?
Speaker 1:So you see kind of smaller floating projects being plugged in next to these platforms, getting consents, as I was saying, so getting their kind of planning agreed, and these are really exciting, because the challenge always with floating is how do you go from projects of kind of 100 megawatts, 500 megawatts to the gigawatt scale and how do you take investors on that journey with you? And what I think we're seeing in Scotland is an increasing number of those projects that will help bridge that gap and build that confidence. And we had one that was successful at the last CFD auction, so the last contracts for difference and they, they, they kind of bid in for this auction and they won, and again, that builds the momentum and the confidence behind behind these projects, um, and so I think we will see increasing numbers of floating projects in increasingly challenging waters, um, and that's so exciting, right, you just see the feats of engineering and you're like you know, how are you? You know, how are you gonna?
Speaker 1:Again, I'm kind of pretty, pretty simple, simple kind of guy, but it's how do you put the scale of that thing that you're building on top of a floating foundation? And it all work. The blades, each of them, when you think about it, each of the blades are longer than a football pitch. The tower is the height of the Eiffel Tower and you're putting this on this floating platform and it all works. And it's just like these feeds of engineering are brilliant, like we should be admiring them, like cathedrals, I think.
Speaker 1:But I think on the floating side, we will see increasing numbers of projects at scale and they're beginning to come through the system. At the moment they're beginning to get their consents and awards, but we are going to need to get that standardization versus innovation.
Speaker 2:When that comes together, do you have any estimates of how much floating is going to comprise the offshore wind activity? I've heard some very varying figures on floating versus fixed bottom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think one of the interesting things about floating is it will depend a bit on the auctions. So at the moment there's a kind of separating separation of that, because it's understood that floating is more expensive than fixed than than fixed. Uh, but it so it will depend on the future parameters of the auctions and therefore there's a bit of uncertainty in the market. But all the signals are that there will be very significant amounts of floating and there's a commitment politically to help drive that levelized cost of energy of floating down so that we can get to that. So but it's it's going to be in the kind of tens of gigawatts. It's not going to be in the kind of gigawatts, not in the hundreds of megawatts space. That scale of opportunity is why it's so exciting, because there are real economic benefits from going after that.
Speaker 3:And Ruben, you mentioned it before too but the development of different technologies and then ultimately the acceptance of certain technologies as the most fitting for the particular course Deepwater oil and gas went through that too. It just happens it went through that in the 1980s 1990s, where there were a whole bunch of different technologies tried for deepwater floating in the Gulf of Mexico and a couple of them were not successful. You know, a couple of those projects didn't make it. We weren't commercial, and some did, and it helped to standardize the industry and at the time we had, you know, particular policies that would provide some tax benefit for exploring and developing in deep water in the United States. And so Scotland is now doing very similar things for the floating wind portfolio, which I've heard mentioned like 30 gigawatts or so of demonstration and soon to be commercial. Scale has been leased or the potential for 30 gigawatts.
Speaker 3:But how do you build the Eiffel Tower at sea? You want to do it step by step if you can, because each step builds additional investor confidence. And I thought one of the great things and I've always you know the brilliant people who developed Highwind at Equinor and I know lots of others were involved too. You know, the first floating project didn't have to export its power all the way back to shore and interconnect and pay for all of that transmission. It's powering a local oil and gas development and so, you know, it's that stepwise increment to demonstrate the floating technology in a useful, economically attractive way that allows you then to move to the next step, which might be.
Speaker 3:You know all of the other parts. You know export over long distances is expensive. So how do we reduce the cost, hvdc? So how do we do that? In a stepwise fashion. You know this. It all makes perfect sense. We just need the policy stability to keep moving it forward across the world. You know, no, no comment on any particular policies. But when you have that vision to lead, this is what it takes, these incremental steps that build investor confidence over time and people's experience right is those two magic magic ingredients and, as you mentioned earlier, like the ports infrastructure, you need to get that right.
Speaker 1:Like so there's been huge investment in ports infrastructure in scotland, some purely private, some backed by public kind of. We've got a national investment bank and there's a uk sovereign wealth fund, that sort of national wealth fund that that is looking to back these projects. And you've you've got to start those you know yesterday in order to be ready to sort of deploy 10, 20, 30 gigs of offshore wind and particularly floating offshore wind. And there's talk about wet storage and all sorts of fascinating kind of solutions to this stuff. But to unlock that investment you've got to give folks as much of a kind of market demand guarantee as you can. You've got to give them that stability because you know we've all taken things to investment committees, we've all taken things to our board and it's it's pretty hard if, if there's a huge variance in the kind of total addressable market and the scale and pace at which that will be deployed.
Speaker 1:So um, the more we can build that confidence and the momentum, the the better, because it means that you get those investments and that's what brings the cost down, because you know the hvdc market is so constrained right, it's so, so constrained. But trying to convince folks to invest in in that, given the capital cost is, is tough because they're like well, you know, I've heard good things in policy documents before and not all of it came to pass. So, you know, is this time for real? And and that's that's part of our gig, I think, is to to kind of get folks together. So the industry is confident, it's looking each other in the eye and, as you said, it comes back down to people like we're going to do this, we're going to transform the energy industry and we're going to do it together and you know, our kids will thank us. It sounds a bit cheesy, but it's true.
Speaker 3:Right, it's true not good, not good. And and it's not just the use of things like hvdc globally, it's also the confidence to build additional manufacturing. You know those of us who work in power recognize that certain pieces of power equipment like hvdc, transformers and other pieces are are really constrained. You know there's not a lot of global manufacturing and yet everybody wants some. So you know to have the confidence to build up the manufacturing base. That takes a long time, right, those are not inexpensive.
Speaker 1:And it's not always the sexy stuff as well. So people kind of quite like blades because they're kind of visionary and iconic. I'm just as excited about switchgear. Right, if you're a switchgear manufacturer I'm like wow, come on over, like I want you in scotland, like what can? You do and these, these kind of you know, these guys who make switchgear, are kind of a bit surprised by the kind of excitement that they get when they turn up in sc and say, like I kind of make switch gear, we're like, yes brilliant.
Speaker 3:We're all fans of switch gear around here. Come on, Ruben.
Speaker 1:Let's take you to a parade.
Speaker 2:We're hearing a lot from you that there's international market space for activities in Scotland and that's great to hear. I hope our American counterparts are hearing that as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I've had some really interesting conversations with US counterparts about how they could develop their ambitions in Scotland, how it fits in with their overall market strategy, their long-term vision of an addition or a transition, um, and I guess the kind of thing is we've got that policy clarity and regularity certainty that you guys have have talked about as being so challenging on previous podcasts. We do. I do feel we've got that, uh, and so the more we can share with folks that journey and that that sort of ambition that we've got and how we're delivering on it, um, the the better. But but ultimately also the great thing that I do when folks come over is I introduce them to other investors who say, yeah, I set up in scotland and it's going like a fair, it's going like a train. I'm doing really well, and that's a much better kind of sales bitch, if it were, is it, rather than me saying it or giving them all the kind of policy documents? It's like here's the guys who are going to be your primes or part of your supply chain or you know, if you're an OEM, these are the, these are the local colleges, these are the academic institutions that are going to provide your workforce.
Speaker 1:Um, because ultimately there's a there's a global race for talent, um, and we've got kind of again, population of five and a half million people. We've got 19 universities in Scotland and we've got five in the top 200 and and that's an extraordinary kind of stat for a small, strategically concentrated mustn't say small a small country, a small nation that is that is really proud of its academic heritage, and so that thing of like come to Scotland and continue to innovate is also quite a big draw for folks. You know, when you think about the cost reductions that happened as a result of better data modelling, digital twins, and you see that just going more and more with AI now there's a really interesting dynamic, I think, of how we can get that academic lifeblood woven into the industry journey, and that's what we're really keen to do. And it's kind of easier when you're you kind of know folks and you can all get around a table together.
Speaker 3:You know, ruben, I have a feel from this podcast and listening to you You're quite good at your job, because I'm excited to book a ticket into Scotland and go and go explore because of so much that's going on there. This has been really a fascinating conversation for many of our listeners. I'm sure they're familiar with some of the things going on in Scotland, but this whole picture that you present is really exciting and for those of us in the energy industry, and particularly offshore energy industry, it just it's another beacon on the hill of great things to come. You know, so exciting. It's been wonderful to hear you and to hear and learn more about Scotland. Jim, what strikes you about our conversation?
Speaker 2:I agree with exactly what you're saying and it's very heartening to hear the things that are going on and to me it pushes back to the issue that we need to be looking at things over the long term, that things are going to be moving because the larger forces at work are going to make them move. And I do think that your point, ian, about stepwise fashion is key. Now you don't have the obstacles in Scotland that we do right now in the US, but in fact things are very promising and I think in the US they will remain promising, stepwise, incrementally over the long term.
Speaker 3:Yeah, jim, you know I've always said to my sons driving around, particularly as they were learning to drive you know we don't want you to break the law, but the laws you really can't break are the laws of physics. But the laws you really can't break are the laws of physics and it feels like some of these laws are physics. You know it will come eventually because we need it. You know society needs it, society needs energy and society needs to do it as responsibly as possible. It's really exciting to have you here, ruben. Ruben, one of the things of our podcast which you've listened to is our last drops in the ocean, where we just take a few moments to mention something that might be timely or topical, that wasn't necessarily discussed during the main part of our chat. So do you have any last drops to share?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so thanks for this. I always like this bit of the show as well, so, and that's probably just. It makes me think of whiskey, right, I think that's probably the last drop thing is kind of. That's so sad in my head. So I think I had two um and one was uh, kind of um. I wondered if it would come up today.
Speaker 1:And it's about um, the increasing narrative that I see between people putting kind of renewables or the energy transition or all that investment um as something that will wane as a result of the investment in defense. And I know we've covered some kind of sensitive topics, so defense might not be what we want to open up at this stage, but I think from my point of view, what's really interesting from a scottish perspective or a uk perspective is what the recent history has taught us. Because gas still sets the marginal price um for the uk it's kind of peaking plant. The volatility that was created by the, the war in uk, in Ukraine and the challenges there showed to me that actually defense and the transition to renewables are not kind of at odds. We need to have this transition and we need to do it at pace in order to be less dependent on volatile global commodities like gas, and I think that that narrative feels topical to me because it's great that there's commitments to NATO and spend and all those things, but I just don't like the again.
Speaker 1:People are setting things up in opposition and I think this podcast has been really good at saying, look, there's a whole host of things going on here and you don't need to be in opposition. And I think the people who are setting up the kind of defense spend and the spend on renewables is in opposition aren't seeing the full picture. So that was going to be my um sort of one drop, uh, if I'm allowed it, and then the final dram, um is, um is, I guess, a bit more kind of uh.
Speaker 1:What I thought was poetic and then I looked it up this morning and it might be from dolly parton, so I don't think you've ever had dolly parton quoted uh on your show and it was just um, it was just about kind of that, that bit of you know, and it chimes with your long-term perspective, jim, of of, like, you can't control the wind, but you can choose how you set your sails.
Speaker 1:And I think that's the sort of exciting message that I wanted to kind of leave folks with, because in Scotland we're pretty excited about the journey we're on. We're not getting it all right. I'm not going to say it's a land of kind of milk and honey. There are challenges, there's grid constraints and connection issues and people would like that consent twice as quickly and all that good stuff. But I guess what we're trying to do is, given all of that, we're trying to set our sails and we're really up for working with other people who want to do that and who want to be part of this journey. Um and so, uh, I guess for me that was the last thought. If you, like you can't control the wind we have got loads of it in scotland all you can do is come and set your sales in accordance with that and try and meet that opportunity. Well said, prueben.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, before I mention my last drop, I have to comment first.
Speaker 3:I love the Dolly Parton reference, but prior to that Somebody has to have said that before Dolly Parton. I think so, but okay all right, I think that's an AI hallucination.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Ai told me that it was Dolly Parton. I was like, oh God, I thought it was more meaningful. I was hoping it was going to be some great Scottish poet. It was like is it Rabbie Burns? Oh no, it's Dolly Parton Nightmare.
Speaker 2:But your point before that I couldn't your point about the perceived tradeoff between defense and renewable energy. Well, energy security, even energy dominance, is defense. They're not separable entities. So that was a great point. I appreciate your bringing that up.
Speaker 2:My last drop has to do with climate change and it is spurred by my thinking over a very long period of time, but came to the forefront in an op-ed that was in the Wall Street Journal on August 1st because of something that the administration released about climate change.
Speaker 2:And I think it's a fundamental change in that the administration, instead of the dialogue about the polemics of denial of climate change and the other extreme of existential threat and elimination of the human race Somewhere in between, is where the policy decisions have to be made. And from the administration, they have identified that they are not denying the climate change, and this is huge to me. It's embedded, it's buried, but it's huge. And they also identified that good science and proper interpretation of that science, as everybody espouses, is the basis for moving forward. So I recommend to everybody to take a look at that, to take a look at the release. Initially, it can be dismissed or it may be dismissed as just another attempt to eliminate the dialogue, but I don't think it's that. I think it's a fundamental change in the attitude towards dealing with climate change and I think it's very important.
Speaker 3:Jim, I'd appreciate seeing that because, as you were mentioning it, you know I'm thinking of. I think what comes to mind for many of our listeners is the, you know, the potential repeal of the endangerment finding from the EPA that allowed the federal government to regulate greenhouse gases. So you know that to me is an interesting, much bigger than a last drop, but a topic maybe for another time. By the way, you two are both so thoughtful with your last drops. I feel like I've done them short shrift this week, but I had two to just mention For the former oceanographers and geochemists out there.
Speaker 3:Deep sea mining of polymetallic nodules is back in the news. This is something that's been talked about as a way to collect rare earth elements since the 50s, and so there's a whole bunch of famous oceanography stories about different organizations and agencies in the United States that were looking at different technologies to go try to find these, basically lumps that are like potatoes but are made up of all kinds of rare earth elements that sit in very deep waters, largely across parts of the Pacific. Anyway, oceanographers, folks interested in that sort of stuff, check your news. There's a lot going on lately, and my last drop is Ruben, please, please, pardon me, but as we were preparing for this, you know I have a little bit of Scottish blood in me as well too I have, so do I.
Speaker 3:So I have just enough blood to do a Sean Connery impersonation that I'm kind of proud of, right? So, because this is an audio format, I'm going to do one Sean Connery quote and listeners, this is your Easter egg. If you can tell us what movie I pulled this from and the name of Sean Connery's co-star in that movie, then I'm going to owe you a shot of whiskey at some point. Okay, so here it goes. Remember, find the name of the movie and his co-star. I found the cure for the plague of the 20th century and I've lost it again. Alright, that's my Sean Connery Audience. I'll spare you from any more of that.
Speaker 2:Actually pretty good Ian.
Speaker 3:I think it's almost like an impersonation of Saturday Night Live doing a Sean Connery impersonation. But anyway, thank you for indulging me, ruben. You know I don't mean to make light of it, but Sean Connery is also Scottish, of course. Listeners, thanks for joining us on this ride across the Atlantic to Scotland, ruben. We've had an awful lot of fun. Thank you for joining us on the podcast. Listeners, if you have other topics you'd like to hear about or special guests that would like to join us, drop Jim and I a line. We're always happy to talk about all kinds of things related to offshore energy. And, jim, remember, you know I feel like we've been on summer vacation, but we're going to get back into the rhythm of things come the fall, come September, right? Yep, absolutely. Does that sound good? Yep.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah, I think we're going to target now, probably about once a month, the podcast, and we'd love to hear from folks on what we're covering, what we're not covering or what we're not covering well and should be doing better. We really appreciate all the listeners and a special thanks to you, ruben, for joining us today. It was enlightening and I think it was very useful for everybody to hear about activities elsewhere, and so we're looking forward to it.
Speaker 1:We're looking forward to where we head in the coming year and if I could just say that it's been an absolute pleasure to be on this, I kind of felt felt like a bit of a fan boy when I, when jim, was like do you want to come here on this podcast?
Speaker 1:I was like I'm now on it, so that's great, but I guess, um, the only thing I was going to say is, if you have been sort of interested or inspired by what we're doing in scotland and this journey, then please get in touch. I'm always excited to hear about folks who want to kind of raise their ambitions and deliver their vision in Scotland. So if you grab me on LinkedIn, my team's in 23 countries and we're kind of spread across the globe, so I might have someone in an office near you who can chat to you more about kind of what's the journey we're on in Scotland and how you can be a part of it. Um, but if you, if you're up for that, then I'd love to hear from you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Jim, great to see you. You too, and listeners. We'll see you again soon on the next offshore energy podcast. Thank you, bye.