In Service to Others

What does it mean to serve something greater than yourself — and what happens to your faith when that service asks everything of you?

This week, Jess and Mark sit down with two men who have lived that question from the inside. Rev. Gregory S. Brown is the senior pastor at St. David Lutheran Church in West Columbia, South Carolina, and an Army National Guard chaplain. Lt. Col. David Kelso is a West Point graduate with 21 years of Army service, two tours in the Middle East, a Bronze Star, and a Purple Heart.

It's a conversation about duty, sacrifice, and the unexpected places where the sacred shows up — even in the hardest ones.

Thanks to the incredible production team of Sorta Sacred:

Music: Brian Schou 

Design: Lauren Brown 

Merch: Allison Winter 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey Mark.

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:02

I know that you don't i have any like idiosyncrasies or anything. Um but is there something that other people do that you don't quite understand? But you still respect?

SPEAKER_03 0:13

There are so many things that people do that I don't understand.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Go on.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

Well, there's fewer things that I respect that people do that I don't understand. There's that's another another conversation. One thing that I I I really, really respect and cannot wrap my head around are these ultra runners.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

So I mean, not marathons, but like the the hundred milers. Like there, there's these races out in in in Wyoming where I'm from, where it's it's an off-road hundred mile up the mountain and then down the mountain run. Why? I don't know. Like I don't get it. I understand, uh, thanks to my friend uh Andrew up in Albert Lee, Minnesota. He said there's something called second degree fun, where in the moment you're it it's awful and you want nothing to do with it. But when you look back, you say, Wow, I'm really glad I did that. I grew as a human. I had a lot of fun. Running a hundred mile race up a mountain is not even second-degree fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

I'm not sure I've run a hundred miles in my life combined, if I'm being honest with you. Oh, no.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

I I go around the block and I'm, you know, I have to bestow the family blessing on my children in case I die. Maybe I should run around the block a few more times.

unknown 1:31

Maybe.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

Maybe again, that's that's not open that can any more than it has to be. What about you? What's something that people do that you respect but don't understand?

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Olives. Eating olives. I don't get it.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

Texture or the brine?

SPEAKER_00 1:50

All of it. I've tried every variety. I've tried of every single way, and I'm Italian. I don't get it. They are so gross.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

They are gross. I do not like olives.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Okay, so you don't like olives. No, I can't do olives. I do not understand it, but I am not gonna yuck someone else's yum. I just it ruins everything for me. I tried to have pizza the other day with olives on it, even took them off, and I'm like, no, I knew they were there.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

Yeah. It's it's the the the the salt bomb, that, that, that brininess.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

And I like salt. Of course. But no.

unknown 2:25

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

I'm with you on that. I and I'm not even sure I respect people who love olives. I mean, I don't think there's a there's a side of respect there. There's a I I I see that you do that.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

I respect that they're able to do it. It takes a special kind of person.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

It yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Well, I mean, that's the thing. Some people are just built for different things. And I think that's a perfect setup for today because we are talking to two men who don't just respect the hard things from a difference, but they sign up for it repeatedly.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Service, sacrifice, and what keeps you going when things get genuinely difficult. That's where we're headed today.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Welcome to Sword of Sacred, conversations about the joys and challenges of life. Today we're finding something sort of sacred, even in the most normal parts of our days.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

We're all humans, and and taking care of folks in all of life circumstances is is paramount to being able to do uh the hard things that our nation calls on us to do.

SPEAKER_05 3:29

I have found a wonderful opportunity here, and being able to serve uh is just a way that I can give back to the country that's given me everything.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Well, today's episode feels a little bit different. I know you can't see us, but we're wearing headphones because we have one guest here in the studio with us, but we have our first online guest all the way in South Carolina.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

First, let's introduce Pastor Greg Brown. He's a senior pastor at St. David Lutheran Church in West Columbia, South Carolina, and has been serving in the Army National Guard since 2005, was then commissioned as a chaplain in 2009. He holds a Master of Divinity degree from Lutheran Theological Southern Seminary and was ordained in 2013.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

And we also have Lieutenant Colonel David Kelso on the pad with us today. Dave is a West Point graduate who has spent 21 years and counting in the U.S. Army. He commanded engineering units in the 3rd Infantry Division and the 1st Army Division, served two tours in the Middle East, and was awarded both the Bronze Star Medal and the Purple Heart, among other awards. He was also recently honored by the Chicago Cubs back in April as the military honoree. I thought that was super cool. And he now calls the Quad Cities home.

SPEAKER_03 4:54

Two very different paths into service, and we suspect some very similar questions. So, gentlemen, first, welcome to Sword Sacred. And more importantly, thank you both for your your service to this country.

SPEAKER_05 5:07

Thanks, Mark. Appreciate the support.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

All right. Well, let's start at the very beginning. Uh, because both of you answered what sounds like more than one call in your life. Dave, what drew you to West Point and to a career in the military? Was that always the plan, or did that somehow find you along the way?

SPEAKER_05 5:24

Uh it certainly wasn't always the plan. Uh I kind of stumbled into it and was uh pushed appropriately by my parents to towards that path. Um but when I uh graduated from high school, I didn't know what I wanted to do next. And and rather than go to college and spend a bunch of money getting a degree, I didn't know if I'd really wanted. I said I wanted to join the army. Um it's just kind of part of the culture of my family, um, some service within the family already. And when I identified I wanted to be in the army, my mom quickly said, Well, if you're gonna be in the army, you can be an officer. If you're gonna be an officer, you're gonna go to West Point. And so that was kind of what set me on that path. And through a series of uh amusing and unfortunate events, uh I got accepted and actually got to go. Uh, and it's been, you know, just a wild ride ever since.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Aaron Powell Amusing and Unfortunate. I want to know more.

SPEAKER_05 6:14

I don't know what unfortunate events lead to West Point of all places, but well, uh specifically, uh you have to get a nomination from uh a senator or a congressman. Uh and that's not always so easy to get. Uh, there are a lot of people, uh, particularly when I was in Chicago at the time, uh, vying for those options. So we were at a Fourth of July parade, and my mother, you know, God bless her heart, decided that she needed to stop the parade when the congressman was going by to say that we needed to get an appointment with you to talk about my appointment to go to West Point. And we got a card from a staffer and met with that staffer after the uh the parade. And sure enough, uh, I did get uh uh another interview and then eventually an appointment uh to go. So, yes, uh that would be the unfortunate aspect of it from my perspective as a young, you know, high school age individual. Uh, but definitely it just kind of shows the level of dedication my mom had to make sure I was on the right path.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

Go, mom. Were you like kind of hiding, like, mom, you're stopping a parade.

SPEAKER_05 7:21

Oh, yes. I was mortified. Uh, but you know, she still talks about to this day. I I openly explained it to everyone that, you know, I asked the question and like what got me in. And my mom definitely was pretty key to that because that was a a big step to do to make sure that I got the nomination necessary.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

And Greg, you've been in the National Guard since 2005, which is before seminary. So what call, what call hit you first, the faith or the uniform? And have they always been connected for you?

SPEAKER_04 7:54

They have not always been connected, and the uniform most definitely came first for me. I grew up in uh a family where none of none of my parents served, but my grandfather was a uh retired Air Force guy. Uh, so there was a lot of pride around um that kind of legacy of service. My father was actually drafted to go to Vietnam, but he flunked his physical because he had a heat stroke when he was 12 picking cotton on the family farm. Um, so they were like, you know, you wouldn't last, you know, 10 minutes where we're gonna send you, so you're not gonna go. I don't think I would say that they were always connected in my mind. I, you know, I grew up Lutheran. Um church was always important to me, but uh if you'd ask five-year-old Greg Brown, hey, what are you gonna be when you grow up? Um, I'm gonna be a soldier. Uh so I actually joined when I was 17, still before I turned 18, uh, while still in high school.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

What was it in your mind, Greg, that you know, made you want to be a soldier?

SPEAKER_04 8:52

I I hate to have the like trite, oh, you know, I really wanted to serve my country. Um, but really that's it. You know, I there's there's something, um I I still believe that there's something noble uh about putting other people before ourselves. And I think that if I if I really think hard about it, that's a lesson I learned from Jesus. Uh that's a lesson that I learned in the in in in my upbringing in the in the church. Um, but I don't think that I would have made that connection uh at that point, certainly not until much later in life um was that kind of on the horizon or or in my field of view.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

So how did seminary fit into that picture? When did uh what was that discernment like for you?

SPEAKER_04 9:37

Yeah, so um uh after graduating high school, I went to basic training here at Fort Jackson in Columbia, South Carolina, where I now serve. Um and I was a split option soldier. So I went and did basic training, and then I went back to school for a year, and then I went back to the army uh to do my advanced individual training for the job that I um had enlisted to do, which was a signal uh soldier. So I was kind of like, you know, ATT or Verizon Wireless for the Army for uh my enlisted career. Came back, went to college, and during college, I um I got approached by my home congregation pastor, and he was like, Hey, uh, we have this stipended position uh to lead campus ministry at the college that I went to in my hometown. Uh, do you want to do it? And I was like, Nope, that's not for me. Um I don't want anything to do with that. Um, you should have asked my brother, he was in seminary at the time, like, um you missed out. You got the wrong brother. Um, and he was like, I'm not asking you to preach, I'm not asking you to leave Bible study, I'm literally asking you to recruit students to come to church and let us feed them. And I was like, Oh, well, I've got fraternity brothers that love to eat, right? So uh and you can pay me to like get people to come to church so we can feed them and do some ministry adjacent things with them. And he's like, Yeah. I was like, all right, cool, game in. And along that way, um, our parish secretary was out at some point. Um, I was kind of down with a with a knee injury, so I wasn't moving a whole lot. She was out and just had a baby. Um, my home congregation had started a um a soup kitchen uh that worked on Sunday because the municipal soup kitchen wasn't open on the weekends. And one day while I was filling in in the church office, just answering phones, um we had a family come in that we had been feeding for years. And they said, you know, we don't have any money. Um, but is there something we can do around the church to like get back? Like, do you need any walls painted? Can we cut your grass? Like, what can we do to contribute? Um, because we don't want to um we don't want to be a burden, we want to give back because you're doing incredible work. And there was something in me that flipped like a light switch that day. Uh, and I was like, okay, God, you've got my attention. Um, but I had this overwhelming sense of I need to be a part of this good work. Um so I emailed my pastor that night and I was like, hey, when I graduate, I think we need to talk about seminary. Um and that email went out at like two in the morning, and my 70-year-old pastor emailed me back within like 30 minutes. And he's like, I'll see you at the office at nine. Um, so I've really kind of never looked back. Um it's been it's been a wild ride, but I wouldn't I wouldn't trade it for the world.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

And Dave, was face something that you brought into the military or something that you kind of found or or deepened while you were in it?

SPEAKER_05 12:51

Well, I kind of grew up in the church the entire time. My uh parents were uh very involved in church activities. My mom was a type that had the key to the church or the lock up at the end of the day because she was there as the last one to say goodbye. Uh so growing up, that's that's where I was all the time. Uh and that was true all the way up until I I went to West Point. Um while I was there, I kind of went a little native with the military side. Uh just timing, it was a little more difficult to be involved in a faith uh like I had been pri previously. Uh and then while um deployed, uh going through some experiences, it definitely deepened. Um it makes it hard to be out there um doing that kind of work without having some type of faith in a higher power or something that will keep you going uh as well as keeping you grounded. Um so uh definitely kind of got reborn in that aspect there. Uh and now that with kids, uh definitely heavily involved in church again, trying to make sure that we've got the right uh combination of guidance and opportunities just to explore uh within the faith for them.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Did either of you have uh a moment where those kind of two identities, soldier and person of faith, felt like you were being pulled in opposite directions?

SPEAKER_05 14:05

Not necessarily being a person of faith pulling me away. Um, but because the military is such a conglomeration of different faiths, it is a little more difficult to be outwardly faithful in a specific way. Uh and certainly as a chaplain, I'm sure uh chaplain's got a lot more stories about how he's able to manage that. But not being a chaplain, I have very strict rules as to what I can and can't do. Uh it's not that you can't be faithful, but you can't be, you know, proselytizing or anything. You have to make sure that you are uh providing equal access and support to all the different faiths, and there are quite a few that are recognized by the military. Uh, and that makes it a little bit challenging as you're trying to balance that. So I don't know about pull pulling apart, uh, but definitely it was more of a balancing act than I expected.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Sure. How about you, Greg?

SPEAKER_04 14:58

I I think that something that's important to know about military chaplains is we aren't supposed to proselytize either, right? Uh chaplains exist to protect the uh First Amendment rights of soldiers um to the free exercise. Um and that is in in and of itself is a challenge. Um because everyone has an opinion about the way you should be doing your job as a person of faith. Uh and having to navigate those waters in an ever-changing political climate is always challenging. Um and in every every instance, uh, no matter who's in office, brings different challenges, particularly for our chaplain corps. Um so different emphases and on different things means that you know all of a sudden uh Army Chaplain Corps activities change. Um and that that brings some some significant challenges with it sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Can you talk a little bit more about um how those things might change for those people who have no idea uh what goes into your work?

SPEAKER_04 16:13

Sure. So um uh one one of the things uh kind of recently um the army came out with a spiritual fitness guide uh that was really a what I thought was a very well-developed product that was applicable uh to all soldiers regardless of faith. Um and it has now gone away. Um I don't think it fit the bill for for what was desired um currently, but the kind of beauty of it was that it was really designed to reach into a pluralistic society that is, you know, the and like um like like Dave said, you know, the the army has is a full of folks of every different walk of life and religious preference. Uh and so having something in our toolkit that was ready to go and usable regardless of uh someone's you know particular faith uh tradition was a really great thing. Um so those things happen. Uh you may have read in the news recently that uh chaplains are not gonna uh wear rank anymore uh on duty uniform. So there's there's been a lot of things um that have been rather interesting as of late. Um so yeah, it's always uh it's it's a never-ending adventure.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

What does being able to serve your country mean to you and how does that help you live out your faith?

SPEAKER_04 17:50

Being able to serve my country as a person of faith, I I I find that, you know, uh one as a as a Lutheran pastor also, like right, like Luther's theology of vocation uh is always something that I I think about and talk about a lot, especially as a pastor. Um and being able to live as faithfully as possible and serving my neighbor in need, one of the ways that I get to do that is is through the Army Chaplaincy. Um, you know, we get to minister to folks in some really, really difficult and dire situations um in all kinds of different places. Uh and it's also like you know, the world's largest youth ministry. Um, so it's uh it's it's just really an incredible opportunity um to be a person of faith that no matter what comes our way, no matter what situations we find ourselves in, I get to be the person that reminds them that God hasn't abandoned them uh and walks with us everywhere we go.

SPEAKER_05 19:01

For me, um it's a little bit different. Uh I actually am not a natural-born citizen. I have immigrated from Mexico. Uh, so I have found wonderful opportunity here. And being able to serve in the military or just serve my fellow man, period, uh, is just a way that I feel I can give back to the country that's given me everything. And it has been very helpful uh in serving my faith in the aspect of getting to see the world. Uh we have traveled all over, been stationed overseas. I've been overseas for other fun things, uh, but at the end of the day, um, everywhere we go, we have been able to find a group of people that are like-minded, uh, even if they're not necessarily the exact same faith. And what we find wherever we go is that uh good people who want to do good things are everywhere. And that's invigorating. Uh, and it's helpful to be that person at times of crisis, uh, much as Greg mentioned, that uh if I can be that person that reminds someone that people care and leaders care, uh, that is worthwhile, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

Aaron Powell Dave, you serve two tours in the Middle East. We're awarded the Purple Heart, which means you are wounded in action. And we want to be respectful of what you're comfortable sharing, but we'd love to know what does faith actually look like in a combat zone? And is it what people imagine?

SPEAKER_05 20:27

Aaron Powell I'm not sure if I can answer if it's what people imagine. Because I don't know what people imagine. Um being in the Army now for 21 years, living this, and it's really 21 years uh on active duty plus four years at school. So more than half my life at this point, I've been in the military. I kind of forget what it's like to not know what it means to be in. Uh however, what it looks like in a deployed environment uh varies greatly. And it often kind of correlates with how much um direct action you have seen or had to experience. Regardless of faith, uh, those experiences are crucible events that bring people together. You're bonded by fire. And if you have a shared faith, then that definitely deepens it together. Um when I got wounded, I was uh not the first uh in my unit at the time. Uh we were deployed to Iraq for the surge in 07-08, and uh we were out there trying to retake ground that had already been taken and then lost. And so we had a lot of casualties within our team. And uh while it was maybe faith agnostic, uh every single time, even if it was only for five minutes, we would take a moment to have a memorial service for everyone we lost. And that was a people being brought together, didn't matter what their faith was, and just taking that moment of silence and reflection um and gratitude for the sacrifice that they made, and then promising each other that we were gonna be there for each other.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

That's incredible. Greg, as a chaplain, you're the person that soldiers come to in difficult moments. What have you witnessed about how people's faith changes or fractures or even becomes stronger under different kinds of pressure?

SPEAKER_04 22:16

I think that one of the one of the realities of life is that our our our faith is a living, breathing, moving, active thing. And uh those kind of crucible moments, like Dave talks about, have the potential, right? To um, there are some folks who will witness or experience awful things and run directly to God. Um, and there are folks who do the exact opposite and and run like hell, the absolute opposite direction. Uh, and and the ability to try to hold space for either of those people, no matter where they fall on that spectrum, you know, the ministry of chaplains is really about accompaniment that we're gonna walk with you no matter what direction you're walking uh in in your life of faith. Um but you know, the the things that our soldiers see and experience, um they do a remarkable job um enduring things that God did not create us to have to do or see. And I'm always inspired by their resilience and their faith and their ability to still even you know whisper God's name in their prayer. Um it's it's incredibly sad and disheartening when folks lose their faith because of those experiences. Um, you know, it it doesn't take very far to to look and uh see what our you know suicide statistics and things like that are. Um there's a lot of brokenness um that happens. But you know, at the end of the day, uh every one of us um are doing the best that we can to um accompany those folks who are in that struggling place after uh after whatever trauma they experience, you know. Um and you know, a lot of the soldiers that I deal with, uh particularly these days, uh have never seen combat. You know, our young soldiers, but there's they've still experienced trauma in other parts of their lives. Um, because you know uh when we put the uniform on, we're not exempt from a a you know really you know normal experience of being a human being. Um so it it it it takes all kinds.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Greg, could you go into a little bit of um you know what soldiers actually come to a chaplain for? Do you pray alongside them? Is they need a human being, someone to listen in the room? Is it all of the above?

SPEAKER_04 25:03

Yeah, I mean it's it really is. It's wild. It's always something different. There no two soldiers are alike, just like you know, no two humans are alike. Um there there is a lot of prayer. Uh, there is a lot of counseling. Some days I feel like I'm more of a social worker than a religious professional. Um Yeah, but that's really only one half of what chaplains do. Um, you know, we advise commanders uh about you know morale and morals and um ethics, um, all kinds of different things, you know, the impact of religion on military operations. Um there's a lot that goes into all of those things. And, you know, so the the like chaplainy things, right, are are only kind of the the tip of the iceberg of what we're responsible for. Um but there's there's a lot. No two days are the same.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Dave, was there a moment in your service where you were aware of something larger than yourself at work where faith wasn't abstract?

SPEAKER_05 26:10

Yes, and and it kind of goes back to the probably seminal event of my career, which is when I got hit. Um I got blown up in a large track vehicle, like a tank. Uh it was a deep buried IED, so it was uh very large, like a 200-pound bomb underneath it. Uh it blew a 17-foot crater underneath my vehicle, like in diameter, about 15 feet deep. We were actually out on a rescue mission for one of my uh compatriots uh that had gotten hit by the exact same thing and they didn't make it. Uh so when I survived and made it through, made it home, I was like, I'm my second chance. Like there is no thing that saved me there but the grace of God. And I can only do what I can in the rest of my life to make that worthwhile. Because by all means I shouldn't have made it, um, but I was just, I guess, far enough over that it didn't quite get to us the same way. Um and I have no reason a reasonable explanation as to why that would be. So at that point, faith was um there that you know, God's watching over me. There's nothing else that I could explain that. Uh and since then, um being there in multiple situations where it's not that dire, but as you know Chaplin was saying, you know, soldiers that are in dire straits of their own for whatever reason, helping them through that is kind of a part of where that faith becomes real. And you see that, you know, just being there for someone, because we are all imbued in a culture that does not acknowledge or really want you to, you know, give up that type of vulnerability. Um, but it's required to then process, heal, and move forward, whether it is a pre-existing trauma or something that you've experienced in service. Uh and that is kind of where I see faith in action as that if you provide that opportunity, if they take advantage of it, um, it can be a life-changing event for them.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Uh, Dave, you commanded engineering units. You were responsible for missions for people's lives. How do you carry that weight? Uh, and what role has faith played when you have led people?

SPEAKER_05 28:22

The weight of command is is challenging. Um, and I don't know how to describe it because it's it's hard to feel it until you're you're in the position. Um, the first time that I had to take command was uh in Iraq. Um my commander had gotten wounded in Evact, and I had to take over for a mission. Um I lost my first soldier in that. It was hard. And it was uh only through faith that we had a mission that mattered and that there was still a team that needed leadership and confidence that I was able to just kind of muzzle through it uh without that type of resilience that you develop by having something that grounds you, and that would be my faith and my confidence in my training. Um, I would not have been able to continue on the way that we were. I mean, I was only like 22 and a half, twenty-three when that happened. Um, so I was pretty young. Um, and as you get in the military, you have people of all ages, all backgrounds. Um, but at the end of the day, you still have to get out there and get the mission done. Uh, so that was probably one of the more challenging events. But that's where I relied on my faith internally so that I could project the outward confidence to keep keep the mission moving.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

The mil the military has wrestled publicly in recent years with something called moral injury, the damage that happens uh when soldiers do things or witness things that violate their deepest sense of right and wrong. Greg, how do you help someone work through that as a chaplain? Because it it it sounds very different from grief and different from trauma. So, what's that look like for you?

SPEAKER_04 30:03

Yeah, it's it's kind of this weird amalgamation of all of those things, right? Um the the role that chaplains play in that is markedly different from a uh licensed professional counselor, uh, even though there are chaplains who are licensed professional counselors, the army calls them family life chaplains. Um really our job is to create space for those soldiers to be able to tell their story in a controlled environment. Um, most of this kind of work follows um uh critical incident stress debriefing kind of stuff, um where it gives them the opportunity to tell their story, take it kind of out of their head a little bit, um, and and to be able to talk about it in in a way that welcomes other perspectives and helping to to reshift um, you know, how do I separate guilt from my identity as a human being? How do I um how do I reconcile the things that I did or said or experienced or saw um when those things deeply conflict with what I believe to be true about the world, uh God's place in the world, uh, you know, if they're a person of faith, um, you know, our job in the midst of that kind of work is really about interrupting the collapse that is trying to happen in that person's life. Um we, you know, we're we're not snake oil salesmen or medicine men, or you know, we don't have all of the all of the right things um all the time. Uh but to be the person um that that hears those stories um and becomes a steward of them, really, in a sense, a caretaker of other people's stories, um to help people wrestle with the hardest questions that that faith has ever given us. You know, why do bad things happen to good people? Why did good, you know, why do uh innocent people die? Um what do I do when I feel like you know maybe we shouldn't have done that? Um why did I survive when my buddies didn't? Um how can I even begin to think about what it's like to talk to God after that? Uh and to be able to help people recognize uh that one, they are having an absolutely normal reaction to an abnormal situation and world that they found themselves in. Um that it wasn't God's doing. Uh, you know, those kinds of important reminders is really what the chaplain's work is in the midst of that kind of experience in life.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

Do you find that the soldiers you work with are willing to go to that vulnerable place or do they need help getting to that place? Because that that's not natural to all of us. I mean, whether you're civilian or or enlisted.

SPEAKER_04 33:27

It is a very foreign thing uh for most soldiers, right? Because the the military tends to be this like, you know, pretty testosterone-driven um macho kind of uh place. Um but if chaplains do their jobs well, if we do the hard work of building relationships, of earning their trust, then they know that they can go to that place with us. Um because you know, we're kind of like a flotation device, right? Um when we're swimming in our own stuff, um, that I can reach out and there's my chaplain.

SPEAKER_05 34:08

I go further even that the army really pushes soldiers to go talk to the chaplain. It's the number one question as a commander if you know someone's having a hard time, um, that they're not willing to talk to you at the command level, is go talk to the chaplain uh because they are a safe space to have that discussion, that vulnerability. Uh and you know, as a leader in the army, when some of those moral injury type events occur, um, what I have found to be most helpful is also uh helping zoom them out. Too often they get focused on what I did or what I can't do, what the rules are stopping me from, you know, keeping this bad thing from happening. Uh, but helping them zoom out to see that, you know, this is there's a bigger plan in place. There are more rules that exist for a reason and that you are part of a bigger operation, and we all have our role to play. And sometimes the, you know, the full picture is hidden from us. Uh, and so you have to help them see that it's not just up to them because a lot of individuals will take that on themselves as if they're carrying the weight of the world. Uh, and that's not the case. And that's what we're trying to help them see. Um, so that there's support out there, uh, and also it's not not their fault the same way.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Do you find that people are open uh to being vulnerable and they're not afraid of repercussions if they're talking about their mental health in the army?

SPEAKER_05 35:31

No, uh, they're not initially open. Uh, and this is where those relationships uh matter so much, uh, whether it's with the chaplain getting out there to develop the rapport with just the unit as a whole. Uh, but really it's those, you know, uh faith in the foxhole, the buddies that were with you at the time that you develop these lifelong bonds with, at some point you start to feel comfortable enough to start having a few conversations. And it's on imperative for those buddies to then push you to the right individuals that can help, whether it be a chaplain, a mental health professional, or someone else. Uh, but there remains a stigma about getting uh mental health uh help while you're in the uniform, uh, because there's an expectation that it'll impact your upward progression. Uh the Army is working really hard to challenge that idea and give people opportunities. Uh they've increased a huge amount of resources, uh, but it's just not consistent. Much like the Chaplain Corps gets new rules and new kind of areas of emphasis, uh, the providers that we rely on to provide our support also get new rules, new programs, new funding, new locations. Uh, and it's the lack of consistency, particularly as you talk about uh those soldiers that are not full-time active duty, but are our reserve or National Guard, you know, compatriots that don't always have access to these. They don't even know what resources exist. And so that's where we really have to do a good job of providing that connection.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

How does forgiveness play into this conversation when it comes to forgiving yourself, forgiving others, forgiving the situation? Talk a little bit about how that plays into these conversations.

SPEAKER_04 37:08

That's a question that almost got me kicked out of the army. Um, when I was in chaplain school at Fort Jackson, um, we had uh a block of instruction about um learning the solution-focused pastoral counseling method uh and a block of instruction on just war um tradition. And our homework that night was, you know, given your two blocks of instruction um in class today, a the the kind of vignette is you know, a soldier has come to you uh feeling really guilty about having had to take a life for the first time in combat. How do you counsel them? Use the my you know, use the method, uh show that you know how to use it, um, but but what happens? Uh you know, as a sacramental Protestant, someone that that finds um a lot of grace in the ritual life of the church, um eventually, you know, if you're gonna talk about guilt, um inevitably the conversation will will, you know, from a faith perspective, um, turns to sin. And if we are not meeting all of the criterion of just war, what does that say about killing in a said in said conflict? Um so eventually there would be an extension of an offer uh for confession and forgiveness. Um and I got accused of being a pacifist with no place in the army, and um they uh tried to get rid of me. But luckily, you know, the the our endorser for our denomination um was called um and he said, No, you can't get rid of him. Uh, because that's actually he's like, I I read his paper, it's really good. And hey Greg, can I keep a copy of it? So um, you know, there has to be conversation about forgiveness, right? That's the thing that is restoring. And and I I think that the hardest person in the world to forgive is yourself most days. Um, we want to hold ourselves to higher standards. I mean, the whole culture of the military is about, you know, uh, you know, living up to these standards that we have for ourselves. Um, and when we feel like we've fallen short, when we feel like uh we've experienced um moral injury or we're suffering from post-traumatic stress or any of these things, being able to forgive yourself is at the center of, I would say, 90 plus percent of those really difficult cases.

SPEAKER_03 39:53

Dave, when you lost people you served with, how did you grieve that?

SPEAKER_05 39:59

So often I I think it was more of a delayed grief. Um, as is mentioned before, the requirement to get the job done uh still existed. Uh so taking a brief moment to recognize the sacrifice uh was important. Um, but I don't think that I really got to fully grieve till I got home. Back out of the combat zone, not even just for the day, for the mission, uh, but really got home to be with people that understood who I was before. Um, I think that was necessary. And um the delay kind of affected how that went because it was many, many months later. Um, for the first couple that we lost, it was at the beginning of a turned out to be a 15-month deployment. So we had like over a year until we got to go home. Uh, and so that was challenging uh to do that grief. And again, uh trying to be a leader, you don't want to outwardly show too much because you want to instill that confidence. Uh and so it was mostly held internal, and I thought about it, you know, at night. Um, what had happened, what I could have maybe done differently. Um I don't know that I've forgiven myself yet for what happened that day. Uh so it is challenging to say that um I have successfully dealt with the grief yet. Um, but I do recognize that um those rituals, whether it was a memorial service or um, you know, just getting together with the guys and you know smoking a cigarette because that's what uh Jablonski liked to do, then that was what we did. Um so you know, we had something that we did in the moment. Uh and it that was really faith agnostic. It was about the community of people together uh at that time. And then when I got home, it was more the personal grief uh dealing with that. Uh and that was with, you know, a tighter group of people and then getting back into church and and more of that type of uh environment.

SPEAKER_03 42:03

I mean, grief, grief on its own is hard enough. I mean, or bordering on impossible. This idea of delayed grief exacerbates that. But then even when you get home, I imagine it'd be challenging to try to grieve some of those losses when you're not necessarily with the people who shared that experience and and that that time. So putting yourself with with another crowd probably makes it even harder.

SPEAKER_05 42:34

It it does. Um that's one thing where um, particularly for the active duty military, uh, when we got home, it was to other military families. And that community is so tight. Um, I don't think at the time there was a single person in my unit that didn't know or have someone that they were grieving. Uh so we all had a shared experience of maybe not that one event, but know how that felt. Um but it, you know, as as Greg mentioned, we're now getting to a point where thankfully we haven't been at war with a huge number of casualties, and it's becoming more and more rare to identify someone that's lost a battle buddy in combat, uh, but they still have their grief, uh, whether it's in their family, uh, you know, uh just even old age, it's still grief, and they still need someone to talk to and experience that with. And with the military, you're often not with your family. You have to develop that communal unit with whoever you're you're with at the time. Uh you could be stationed in Germany and your grandma dies in California, and you have no chance to go see her, and you're still experiencing that grief. And if it's not delayed, it is at least uh, you know, something you have to then deal with with your friends that you're with, maybe your chaplain, uh, you know, whoever you can reach back to. Uh and the big difference now, thankfully, with the communication, what we're doing today, with having a you know Teams call uh with someone in South Carolina, uh, it's a lot easier to reach back and talk to somebody, um, even if you're halfway across the world. That's very helpful.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Pastor Greg, how does your experience on the military side change the way that you think about and and look at grief and loss with your civilian congregation?

SPEAKER_04 44:11

I I immediately think about 2020. Um the COVID tide, right? Um in 2020, I did 42 funerals. And grief is such a communal activity. Um kind of no matter where you are, but let me tell you, in the southeastern part of the United States, like we show up, right? Like that's like what we do. And when we couldn't do that, it felt a lot like some of the experiences that I've seen in soldiers who have lost people in combat, exactly the experience that Dave talks about, that delayed grief that you have to somehow compartmentalize and deal with later. Um so that was that was really challenging uh for us. Um and you know, unfortunately, thank God for those experiences. I think it it lended a an experience that allowed me to accompany folks differently than if I had never had the the experience with the military. Um I always hope and pray that you know being a good parish pastor makes me a good chaplain, uh, and being a good chaplain makes me a good parish pastor. Um the similarities are um unavoidable, um, even though they are very different ministries. Um one of my favorite um things I've ever heard a leader say in the army was uh okay, Greg, it's your job uh to take care of the human being inside of the green suit. Um and realizing and recognizing that at the end of the day, every one of us are precious and beloved, uh formed in the image of God. And no matter what's on our uh what ranks on our chest or uh you know what branch of service is on that name tape, uh, we're all humans, uh first and foremost. And and taking care of folks in those um in all of life circumstances is is paramount to being able to do uh the hard things that our nation calls on us to do.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

What do you wish civilians understood about what veterans carry home with them that maybe doesn't show up on the outside or on what you would see initially?

SPEAKER_05 46:39

I think the one thing for the um active duty side, and I can't speak necessarily to the reserve and guard because they have a very different experience, um, but that what we do is more than just a job, it is a lifestyle that has unique opportunities and significant challenges. Um my kids have lived, I think my oldest in 10 different places, and she's 16. So her stability in her home life hasn't been there the same way. I'm not gonna say it's not there, it was just not the same way. Um, so we commit as a family and we commit um for uh a long time that it makes it who we are. Um, my kids, my oldest right now, uh has said that, you know, this is just another another PCS, uh permanent changes station. She's lived no longer in about three years at any given location, and she'll be here for only about three years because she'll graduate and move on. And so it's just another step in her journey that looks the same. Um, so you know, it's it's more than just putting on a green suit and going out and doing fun things uh that your recruiter tells you about. Uh, it is the day-to-day challenges and changes that you have to deal with that is almost impossible to understand until you start doing it. And I think for our reserve and and guard counterparts, it's almost even more challenging because they are for the most part in a quote unquote normal civilian job, but they also have to do this and often with more disruption than even what we experience because it's less consistent. My kids know they're gonna move every three years. For our guard and reserve teammates, they may not know if they're going to deploy in every five years or every other year or whatever it ends up being for them based off their situation. So I think it's in many ways more disruptive for them.

SPEAKER_04 48:31

God bless you for that, sir. It's uh it it it is it's it's a different world. Um, you know, our our folks um deploy quite frequently in the in the guard, and the the challenges coming home is that we don't come home to a neatly organized, somewhat network of here's where to go to get help with this problem. Um we're we're dropped back into our communities. We're you know, it used to be, you know, when I first joined the guard um at 17, uh most of the people that were in my unit, I'd say 80% or better, all lived in the same town. Um, but you know, after 20 years of conflict, um force structure changes and all of those things, like it's not really a hometown kind of thing anymore. Um, you know, I I work at a um I'm the command chaplain at a two-star command, and it's two and a half hours away from my house. Um and you know, it's it's busy. So we don't we don't have all of the kind of neat orderly things uh to to help our soldiers uh, particularly on the reintegration end of things when folks come home. So for the our active duty brothers and sisters who come home from those um deployments and mobilizations, who get to return uh to their uh to their duty station, barring PCS moves that come after that, right? They they get to come home together. Uh our folks come home and they're immediately dispersed um to the four winds, and it it really creates some challenges.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

After everything you've experienced and what you carry with you, what does your faith actually look like now? And maybe not has it changed from when you started, but how has it changed from when you started?

SPEAKER_04 50:39

I think my faith has well one, I would say stronger than when I was 17-year-old Greg Brown when I raised my right hand the first time. Um but it's a lot more flexible, it's a lot more open, it's a lot more gracious. Um I, you know, the army challenges every preconceived notion that we carry about people. It has a really great job of destroying biases. Um you know, it it's just opened me up to a lot more possibility to see God at work in other people. Um one of the people that I think about immediately when when that kind of comes up is uh one of the chaplains that I supervised uh when I was in Germany uh as a brigade chaplain um was a Muslim imam, uh, and his commander that he worked for was Jewish. Uh, you know, so not typically folks that you would see that would necessarily kind of get along, right, for along kind of traditional religious lines. But let me tell you, they were a rock star team. Uh and they loved and appreciated one another, and their soldiers, you know, regardless of what their faith was, looked up to them um and found a lot of pride and joy uh in watching the two of them work together. So, you know, places where the world would say that there are walls put up, um the army has helped my faith to see that those walls don't actually exist unless we put them there.

SPEAKER_05 52:24

I would say that my faith now, compared to when I first joined, is nuanced. Um, and then partially because of my service, partially becoming a father. Uh having to explain the stories to my children changes the flavor of what my understanding is. Um but as, you know, as Greg mentioned, um, being in the army is a great equalizer. And you see the humanity in all people of all walks of life. Uh and it gets kind of challenged me from what used to be more of a black and white understanding of the world uh as well as my faith. Um and now I see that it's not that it's you know shades of questionable gray, but really um understanding that there may be a different point of view. And you need to think about that and understand that to really connect with somebody. Uh and the way it tangibly has driven me differently is um I will be more likely to reach out to somebody now than when I first started, uh, to help make sure that if they are struggling, and it may not be much, it may be like an eye twitch that you notice and all of a sudden, like, hey, are you doing all right? Um, and it's a the wall will break down. I would never have done that when I first started. And now, um, partially because of my faith, partially because of training of what the army tells you to take care of each other, um, which is, I think, based on that idea that we are all people that need support, I am more likely to do that now. Not to say that I do it all the time or even very well, uh, but I'm more likely to do it now than I won when I started.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

What has service taught each of you about grace and what it actually means to sacrifice something and to serve something larger than yourself?

SPEAKER_05 54:11

So for grace, um I think it's uh coming to terms with the fact that you don't control everything. Uh you have to at some point just let go and trust the process, trust your leaders and really trust God. Um we can prepare for everything, but the common saying in the military is no plan survives first contact. The very first time you get shot at, oh, the plan goes out the window. You're now reacting. And it's your trust that your battle buddy, your left and right are doing the right thing, that you thought of as many possible things as you can that you'll make it through. But at the end of the day, that's not a guarantee. And often you don't. And so um, it's just letting go at a certain point. Um I would argue I'm a bit fatalistic myself, just in general. I maybe like go a little too early and just let things play out. Um, but I I definitely learned that with the military, whether it's, you know, full combat or just, you know, how am I going to get through the day? Uh sometimes things happen that just take you completely off course, and it can be okay. Um, and I think that's really what I've learned about with Grace is just letting it be okay and trusting that God has a plan, you'll make it through. And there's probably somebody on your left and right that's gonna help you along the way.

SPEAKER_04 55:26

My JAG officer, our lawyer on staff, um is is a person for me that really funny, um, embodies grace probably more than anyone else I've ever worked with. Um and I always will remember uh when we've been sitting in a conference room, some of Paul's sage advice uh was to always remind the commander that, well, sir, doing nothing is always an option. And uh and usually that had to do with you know folks getting in trouble or doing something stupid. Um, but it was always funny that the person, the first person in the room uh to want to extend grace to other people was the lawyer. Um and uh so uh we had we had signs on our offices that were also right next to each other. Um his said law, mine said gospel, uh, which is you know always funny for for the Lutherans out there. Um but you know grace is golly, it is and it isn't ours to give all at the same time, right? We can give grace um to others, we we can extend grace to others, um, but God's grace is beautifully maddening and frustrating. Um and remembering uh always that the gift is not ours to give, but it is ours to share. Um is is something that that the army in my experience as a chaplain has really reinforced.

SPEAKER_03 57:11

All right, before we let you go, for anyone listening who has a veteran in their life or who is themselves a veteran, what's one thing that you wish more people understood? We're just people too.

SPEAKER_04 57:24

Right? We have very human experiences that might be very different than some other people's. We carry the same struggles, we carry some different struggles, but at the end of the day, we just want to be treated the same as everybody else. To illustrate the point, um a couple of weekends ago I was at my uh my weekend duty for the National Guard. Of course, we went out to eat for lunch when uh when it was lunchtime, and uh we were celebrating uh promotion for one of the other staff officers, and we had folks just left and right coming up to us. Thank you for your service, thank you for your service, thank you for your service. And that's that's beautiful and that is lovely, and we're appreciative, but also see us as human beings. We are not just we're not just a uniform, right? Um, I think that's probably for me the the biggest piece of it.

SPEAKER_05 58:21

We're preparing right now with First Army to go over to Normandy uh to support the uh commemoration events. And it's gonna be a very somber event, um, but much as as Greg mentioned, you know, we're people too. I think one of the challenges that I wish more people understood about veterans, whether they've gone overseas or not, uh, is that you know the stories that we want to share have to have the right context. And and I say that because um one of the individuals that uh we are going to commemorate while we're over in at D-Day, um, he wrote a book, but it wasn't until 50 years later that he was able to write it down. What happened? He was a POW, he escaped, he saw all sorts of things. Um so uh one of the quick questions that people usually ask, if you're not in uniform and they find out you're a veteran is, oh well, how many people did you kill? How many things did you do? Like what kind of stuff did you do, thinking about it being in a movie. And maybe that soldier has. But it may not be the appropriate time to tell that story. And I know that Nicole, my wife, uh often says, I have to wait until you're with other people to hear your stories. Because you don't tell them at home. You tell them with that guy you haven't seen in 15 years that was with you, or with somebody else that has the same sense of humor about that one incident. Um so just understanding that it's not that we don't want to talk about all of our experiences, but that sometimes there's context and that matters. Um but talking about it is probably the easiest way to connect and to help them process in the event that there was a traumatic event or just a change. And and honestly, as um I get closer to retirement age, taking this uniform off is gonna be a significant emotional event. It has been my identity for a very long time. Uh, and it's harder to see who I am outside of this than I expected. Um, but eventually we all have to take the uniform off, and we are still exactly as Greg said, people uh that have you unique experiences, but the same experience as everybody else. We have had challenges that we've overcome and opportunities that we've seized, and maybe some missed opportunities we wish we would have. Um, but we're still people.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

Is there something from your service that you'd say is genuinely sort of sacred? Something a little unexpected, or you found meaning or grace in a place you wouldn't have thought to look otherwise?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:58

I never expected uh to be in a teacher type role. Uh, but my current job is with First Army, which is responsible for training all of our National Guard and Reserve teams as they prepare to deploy. It's called an observer controller trainer, OCT. Um, just prior to this job, I was at uh the Joint Readiness Training Center at Fort Polk, which is a very swampy place to be. Uh, and I stayed there for three years doing the same job. And so I spent the last six years effectively learning and perfecting how to help train other people. And while I never expected that to be my part in life, I have found great value in that and an opportunity to share my experience and understanding, as well as help people achieve their best version of themselves in the limited time that I'm able to impact them. Uh, and that has been more uh gratifying than I ever expected.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:58

I'm always surprised, and I and I probably shouldn't be, that no matter where I've gone in my military career, how amazing the people are. You know, there's some there's some folks that you wish you didn't have to serve with again or along the way, probably, but you know, uh for the for the most part, like holy cow, um what a sort of sacred kind of thing that I get to work with America's treasure of our daughters and sons who have raised their right hand to say that I'm going to do this for y'all. It is holy and it is awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:49

Thank you so much, both Greg and Dave, for your service for joining us today. Really appreciate the time. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:55

And thank you to everyone out there listening. Until next time, keep finding the sacred in your every day.