Hello friends, and a very warm welcome to Transforming Stress with Dr. Ash. Are you ready to turn stress into your comfort? For over 30 years now, Dr. Ash has worked and gained education across three continents India, the United Kingdom, and the United States in health care. He's witnessed firsthand how stress can impact our health and cause our happiness. But here's the exciting part. He's here to help you transform your stress into a powerful tool for growth and resilience. Each week, he'll share practical tools and life-changing insights from his books, including The Boiling Frog, to help you manage your stress, find balance, and live a life of purpose. Please join us every Friday at 5 p.m. and let's start turning stress into strength together. Now let's dive into today's episode.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Transforming Stress with Dr. Ash podcast. And today I'm really delighted to welcome Teresa Granieri from Lisbon, Portugal. Teresa is a really inspiring guest, and I've always wanted to get you on the podcast, Teresa, and I'll tell you why. She's a very experienced mindfulness teacher, movement practitioner, and a graduate from the Bangor University, Bangor University's prestigious masters in mindfulness-based interventions. Teresa has more than three decades of experience in contemplative practices and a rich background in body-based awarenesses. She brings to us a blend, a unique blend of mindfulness, movement, and a really deep compassion to work, to her work. And today, Teresa, what we are going to explore is how chronic stress slowly builds up in seriously, under the skin, outside our awareness, very much akin to the boiling frog metaphor. So thank you very much for joining me, and I'm really, really excited to have you. Welcome to the Transforming Stress with Dr. Ash podcast.
SPEAKER_02So thank you, Ash, and I'm so grateful that our somehow friendship, uh professional uh friendship, um, you know, was conveyed to this invitation. And yeah, as Dr. Ash said, um I live in Portugal, uh, but I've I was born in Italy, and since 85 I've been an expert, and I have a background. Um, I was a performing artist, but I always practiced uh meditation since I was 18, and so that was somehow a long path towards becoming professionally, and um so until the the master at Benor University. And um, yeah, so thank you so much for this uh for this invitation and for contributing somehow to help people understand how they can navigate difficulties in life, how they can somehow be resourced to navigate um when they are facing uh yeah, challenges, life challenges. Yeah, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00So, uh Teresa, how have you found these mindfulness-based interventions? That's MB MBSR and MBCT, and you can explain what that means to the listeners, how they have been helpful in navigating life's challenges and daily stressors which come to us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So, what happened in in my life as well? So um in 2014, I was going myself through a very challenging time, and which invited also me to reconsider my professional life. And so, as I was practicing, you know, first I embraced transcendental meditation back in 85, and and then slowly I started to embrace maybe other traditions and the Dharma, and um, and I was I became so curious of the application of this understanding within that you know the mental health, the health context, and then all the evidence-based kind of protocols, which are NBSR and BCT. So these are protocols that are structured in a certain way. Um, and in some countries, specifically, for example, in the UK, the NHS is prescribing MBCT, the mindful-based cognitive therapy, to people that are experiencing this the third or the fourth crisis, depression crisis. So these are protocols that are created to uh to prove, and there have been there have been many trials to prove the before and after how it is in fact necessary within you know the mainstream um context. So I was I became very curious how these practices, how these principles have been somehow accepted in the wider context of society. And so, thanks to the work of many scientists, um, not only John Cabatsen, who created the MBSR mindful based stress reduction, but then other scientists like Mark Williams, Rebecca Crane, William Coichin, so people that have dedicated their life to really create some credibility of these practices to have really people that are dealing with even clinical conditions. So, and I became very curious because you know, not only in our Western context we need the degrees, but you know, the degrees are the result of a process. And for me, it was very important to understand how to present certain things that are the way I live, that these are my practices, this is my way of being in the world, explain this with certain competences, with a certain language, so that become accessible to people that are not necessarily practicing or never approach somehow a contemplative experience. So that was an important process for me to make this, you know, this practice is universal. And what is beautiful in this uh attempt, and you know, well um somehow is an attempt and somehow it's also working to make this practice accessible to people that otherwise would never come to these resources because in fact there are resources. And so this has been an incredible journey and it's never ending. And I'm always adding other also competencies, like now, you know, offering trauma release exercise or trauma somatic approaches to release the trauma which is stored in the body and when it and which is causing us to be completely dysregulated, and so we can then you know also understand how we actually create stress within the body, right? So this is that that has been my journey, my personal attempt also to make what is my personal um approach to life and how I navigate my personal um difficulties as a human being and how to make that accessible to others because I, as a human being, I understand what it means to be human. Right.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Teresa. Now, can you explain in a very simple language what MBSR and MBCT means, uh mindfulness-based stress reduction and mindfulness-based cognitive therapy? And can you explain what it is?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so historically, the MBSR was created 45 years ago more or less in uh in the health context in a hospital. And that was John Kabat Sin, so a biologist that was working in Massachusetts, in Boston, in this hospital, and he was himself a practitioner. And so, although you know, mindfulness is you know, it's important to understand what I would like to say. It's important to understand that although we have a secular approach, and this is the language we use, is a secular approach. I like more the word inclusive, so everybody can practice. This um understanding is based is rooted in the ancient Buddhist psychology, and really the and somehow it's a way of unpacking human suffering. So stress reduction means basically suffering reduction. And so, what you notice is that in this context of the Dharma and then the somehow the secularization of it, there is one basic pattern, and stress is caused by this human tendency, and it is universal. In each culture, all humans want something, and they don't want something, and that is the tension, that's the stress. And so the intention of these programs is basically to recognize the patterns that are at work when we face difficulties. So I want something and I don't want something else. And so these programs are you know very well constructed to somehow reduce that tension. And we call it as a non-dual approach in the sense, why I don't I want this and I don't want that, how can I be somehow aware and present of the situation and embrace and navigate that with certain qualities? So mindfulness is known as being, you know, being in the present moment, but this is not the whole story, is a very inaccurate in the sense it's being present with certain qualities. And these are the qualities that will offer humans the capacity to navigate difficulties. And so normally my uh MBSR was somehow offered to all those people in this hospital where medicine didn't find an answer. And as you know, as a doctor, this is a big number, right? How we help people so we we try there are no maybe diagnoses, and so what is really at the base of that? What are the patterns at work? And on the base of MBSR, which is an eight-week course, um psychologists became very curious about the results of Dro Kabatsen that were published in you know in uh in uh in many venues as well. He was presenting um MBSR in many venues, and so and so the Mark Williams and other two psychologists, uh one Canadian and one British as well. So they were CBT practitioners, um, they received actually a grant to create um a group intervention uh to address depression crisis. So people that would fall over and over and over into depression. And so, of course, they went to the United States and they start to understand how it was working. Essentially, it was also to understand for these practitioners, CBT practitioners, that they themselves needed to become practitioners of mindfulness, and the teaching is just an extension of that. Um, and so this is back in the 90s, and then there were trials in 2013, that was the last trial, and so MBCT has been somehow um accepted as an official intervention, as I said, prescribed eventually for people that are experiencing their third or fourth um depression crisis. So that being said, you know, and I'm also you know advocating the integrity of teaching, these protocols have been, you know, gone through different studies and approved in the most you know more or less scientific way. Nevertheless, that as you know, uh society is changing quite rapidly, and we are not anymore who we were 45 years ago. And so I'm also, although it's important to create that integrity of the protocols, MBSR and BCT, we need to adapt to what are the needs of contemporary society. And for example, I offer a lot mindfulness in the educational context with the students, and for sure these kind of uh classes that are very long maybe they're not very um accessible. Nowadays, you know, our society is extremely distracted, it's difficult to focus. So we need to approach everybody, everybody's on the everybody's on the following. So this is yeah, exactly. So this is not 1979, right? And so, and as we know, also these changes are happening so rapidly. The fact that, for example, now we have all these meditation apps, mindfulness app, and we make teachers and not necessary anymore. But you know, the teacher is important because a lot happens in this co-regulation of the nervous system in the presence of the teacher. And the teacher is also helping the person that is practicing and using or you know, trying to apply mindfulness or you know, to use mindfulness as one of the many resources to navigate that, the resistance, the difficulties, you know, being present and being focused. The app will never replace a human being. This is also what's happening with the eye. Of course, is an incredible support, but it will never replace the co-regulation that happens between humans and two nervous systems that meet each other. So that's a bit a complicated, complicated dynamic we are you know some somehow face it faced with.
SPEAKER_00Yes, thank you. So, Teresa, have you heard of the boiling frog analogy and the book uh The Boiling Frog Workbook and the Boiling Frog Book, which I published earlier this year. And this is about the how chronic and insidious stress affects us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And why is mindfulness so essential? That was your question as we were talking. You know, I was um I almost uh finished your book, which is quite, you know, is is a very rich book, and as I told you, is something you need to you know to go through at a slow pace. It's a coaching book, so it's not just about reading, but really, you know, pausing to you know to apply the suggestions and and so on. But the thing is that um we are chronically disconnected from our body, and so mindfulness is somehow a foundation, it's just about the awareness, it's just like how do you know you are awake? We are awake, both of us here, but how can we say that I'm awake and not sleeping? Maybe it's my body posture, maybe it's the fact that I'm speaking. So, and that becomes somehow you can do whatever, any kind of intervention, but without the awareness, you first don't notice that your body is tired, that is in pain, that maybe is sending so many, you know, red red flags or alarm or red lights that some stuff is needed, or that we need to do some changes in our routine, in how we eat, in how we work. So, and of course, what happens when the body cannot, you know, is not somehow we don't pay attention to the body when it's just speaking. It will cry and it will scream, and then we need to pay attention because we don't have any other choice. And this is where you know people get into burnout. Only when really we have we're touching, you know, the ground then we listen. But mindfulness becomes somehow a resource, a way to offer please feel, please pay attention. There is something that maybe needs to be changed in the way you eat, in the way you know you work, maybe how the mental patterns and how our habits rule our life. You know, it's just about becoming aware also of certain beliefs or mental patterns that create really suffering, like self-criticism or you know, um self-blaming. If there is no awareness, there is no change and there is no sustainable change because then we go back to square zero after the change. It can be a you know an acupuncture session, or we are, you know, we go to a doctor and there is a prescription, but we're not always with the doctor, and we're not always with the the acupuncturist that creates balance. But how am I sitting? How am I living? What is really creating this discomfort? And so mindfulness becomes somehow an essential, I would say, tool, you know, for for a lack of words, to really avoid that the frog, you know, is in the water until eight, you know, 98 degrees, and then it's too late. Until he's dead, until it's dead, you know. But the body was sending so many signals when the water was 40, maybe it's okay, but then the water became you know 50 degrees, 60 degrees. But if we are disconnected from the body, so the first step of mindfulness is pausing to notice. The point is we need to feel safe to notice. Therefore, then I, you know, out of frustration, I started to you know to achieve or learn other tools and other interventions, and I went back to you know to somatic practices, which I studied many years ago, like psychosomatic practices, to bring again, you know, to remove the attention fully from the head to the body. So because this is the body is the one that is in stress, right? The mind can endure forever, but the body is tired, the body is somehow communicating, we have a problem, but we don't listen. So, and then you know the frog is in the water until it's too late, so it's essential.
SPEAKER_00So, Teresa, if I just uh summarize what you have said in very simple language, so if one does not have awareness to start with, then it is very difficult to make any changes because one is not aware of our own patterns, our own behaviors, shifts in the environments, what the body is telling us when the there are these shifts in the environments. Like today we are working in a culture where the micro stresses are coming to us from all different directions, and body is telling how much they are able to, the body is able to cope, what body signs, but if we are not aware of those signs, then there is no starting point. So if there is no mindfulness, there will not be any awareness. If there is no awareness, then you cannot bring uh around any change, you cannot navigate, and you cannot bring any sustainable change because to start with, you aren't even aware of what's happening inside you and around you. Have I have I articulated it correctly?
SPEAKER_02Very, very well. That that's it indeed. That's I always say I worked for two and a half years in in uh in a center, so it was a sort of community where we were attending to people, you know, that were dealing with burnout, anxiety, but also post-rehab from addiction. So it was a very wide somehow spectrum, and and the sustainable change, because we can go to rehab for 28 days, whatever, but then when we are alone, what do we do with our time? How where do we rest our attention? So there is you know mindfulness and it's not a luxury anymore, it's just the foundation, also because it's a society, as we said, that for the environment, for the you know, the conditions that we are confronted with is inducive to you know to escaping from is a quick world. And when things are are fast, we can't notice. We need first of all to slow down to notice and become present.
SPEAKER_00Slow down to notice. And what would you say to the mobile phone? Because you see everybody on the mobile phone these days, and it's a kind of a distraction, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02It is, yeah. Of course, when we are in pain, the first thing that we try to do is distract ourselves. This is the tendency of the mind. So, not to mention then you know the Buddha as as a as a as a as a religious figure, but it was a very clever man that was unpacking the mental patterns that would were creating and sustaining. Suffering. This is also the basis of MBCT. What are the mental patterns that are creating a sustaining depression basically? So, and he said, you know, this is probably you know quite common to say that the mind is the root of all problems. And somehow he was right. And I sometimes I question myself, what is this teaching nowadays offering to us? And the mind as phones are devices, are tools. But when we are identifying with the tools, we are dominated by. So it's a presence that is caring for the well-being, my own, and the well-being of the wider community and being in service of the wider community. So it's quite a wider spectrum. It's not just being present with no tomorrow. This is the pattern of addiction I consume without tomorrow. But it's just being present with somehow a wider perspective. What's going to happen if I engage in certain behaviors, if I do this, if I engage in certain mental patterns like self-criticism or self-blaming? What is really no? So as you write in your book, it's inviting, it's not just the meditation practices, but it's a it's a way of being in this world which is about consciousness, it's about self-inquiry, what's really present right now and why am I acting in a certain way? So I don't know if that creates more clarity about mindfulness. Because when things become popular, like yoga and you know, all these eastern kind of wonderful approaches, but then they are westernized and they are not fully understood. They become other ways to become proficient and you know, like you know, the Western patterns, you know, productivity and so on, rather than you know, really going at the roots of it. Yoga is union. Who is practicing yoga with adding that intention of union between the mind, the body, the spirit? This is yoga, it's not just physical activity or you know, yoga posture. But you know, this is also happening to mindfulness, it's westernized and is of course we are Westerners, but are we still keeping somehow the understanding of the actual intention?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. One question I wanted to ask you that in today's society and culture, we are having lots of micro stresses coming to us from different directions. So, on a day-to-day basis, how do you manage this? Uh, is there a kind of a buffering system uh that you can uh you realize where we are and how it is affecting you? Because keep in mind, sometimes these micro stresses could be much subtle. There are certain things which is on your face, you know, somebody's angry or client is angry, or uh whatever profession uh people are in, uh you can see it coming towards you, but sometimes if there is kind of more subtle threats to your identity, uh people not valuing you or devaluing you, uh those kind of things, how do you manage on a day-to-day basis?
SPEAKER_02Is complex. So, this this question is a great question, but requires a bit, you know, a wider perspective. So, first of all, the tendency sometimes is that we make things very personal when they are not a simple example. I'm trying to cross the street, but I see that the car is very quick. So I practice discernment and I say I better pause because the car is too quick. But I might take this personal and say, who is the guy driving? What is he thinking? You know, so you make that little stress something that is about you when it isn't, because we have no idea what's happening to the driver of the car. And so that can become a micro stress as well, while it's just about someone driving fast and I pause, period. And we don't we're not aware of the mental proliferation, so that again the awareness of when I make those things a personal issue. So that is one thing. So I would say, under no circumstances, you know, it's about you know making things about yourself, that self-absorption, and is there where the practice becomes essential, it's not just about you, you know, you become just an observer of the situation, it's not about you being in the situation. So this is where the practice can be very helpful, and then the discernment to understand the triggers, and there I would say you know, maybe some practices about you know the regulation of the nervous system, because if your system is so under pressure, the little thing arrives and you explode, right? So it's about what do you do during your life to decompress, right? And it's true, our contemporary lives are so complex. It's it's just you know difficult. I really have so much compassion for humans nowadays. Women that have to juggle family kids, you know, mate, and then you have the teenager kid and the parents, you know, getting older is so complicated. And then can I pause a moment and create a you know, can I land in my feet to start with, rather than you know, falling into the cognitive proliferation, you know, in the production of the mind. So this micro stress that you call can become micro-stress, can become really strong. Micro stress. Yeah, yeah, they can become enormous, you know, they can get an incredible dimension if this stuff is landing first in a system that is dysregulated by itself for other reasons. It can be trauma, um, you know, a divorce that you know a relationship which is creating incredible, you know, stress, many things, and and how can I navigate again with that loosening, that grip? I want this and I don't want that. And we are constantly in that tension that in the nervous system, you know, either fight and flight or freeze, right? So, as you know, as a doctor, you know, you write a lot in your book about the nervous system. This is essential. This person, I think, it should be something that we teach at kids. How I can regulate my nervous system. And in school, for example, we we judge the behaviors of kids without pausing and inquiring, why is this kid acting in this way? And rather than blaming, humanly pausing and inquiring what's really happening, and so you know, and there it comes the element, the quality of the heart, the compassion for the human condition and the shared humanity. So, this um, you know, I don't know, and it's about when I meet a colleague that is so angry, for example, and yes, sometimes I can be also activated by this, but sometimes I can also pause and say, Hey, can we pause a moment? Are you okay? And then maybe we can discover what's really underneath that you know, criticism or that, you know, the nerve nervity of certain colleagues. Or for example, you I mean you're a doctor, you face people in pain. Of course, people that are in pain are incredibly impatient and they are scared, basically, scared. So that that's difficult. You know, so maybe for me, it's just although I, as I said, I do not always master it, but this it's just pausing, you know, not being so reacting and pausing and trying to understand what's really happening in this moment beyond my self-centeredness, and it's always about me and this person that is not kind to me, what's really there, right? But it requires, I guess, a lot of practice to counter the capacity to pause and inquiry.
SPEAKER_00Well, uh Teresa, if somebody on, for example, on a day to day I go to work, something has happened, um short staffing and some conflict with a colleague. Is there any technique which you might uh demonstrate? Is there any technique you might demonstrate that one could do uh in a very short time?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, before that is is probably there is when I introduce meditation to people, for example, I there is one default mode of attention, that attention follows intensity. So our attention, our focus will go just because you know the mind has been developed you know over five millions of years to detect threats so that we can survive. So, of course, what is going well, what has a very low intensity is not worthy of attention. So if we clap our hands and then we pause it and we notice, we notice where there is intensity in the hands rather than to feel the feet, where maybe there is almost no sensation. So the first thing is just learning to create some space. And when I sense that there is a lot of tension, somehow I would say, you know, I take a moment of pause and I go in the bathroom, maybe in a if the breath is a safe place for you, otherwise, it's just moving from the head into the body and sensing how am I sitting. What am I what is the body feeling? This is just a moment where we can, and that brings somehow the brain back to unity, because when you know that the brain has three parts, we have this part that is you know the reptilian brain, the limbic plane, and brain, and they are very well connected. And when there is stress, the prefrontal cortex go goes offline, and so it's it's is it's as it has been seen that when we pay attention to physical sensation, we create unity in the in the brain again, so we can take more you know rational decisions rather than going in protective mode and then screaming back. So I would say maybe we can just pause a second and feeling how we are sitting, moving from the head into the body. If it's okay for you, you can take just a deep breath. The famous count until four. So creating somehow that pause, which is not stop. You know, some people you know, but when there is a lot of heightened energy and we stop, there is then even more energy. What we wish is to create spaciousness, so that you know that kind of intensity is a bit diluted, and then with the practice, we learn somehow to also rest our attention in where there is less intensity and being okay with that, rather than always following intensity 10. And that's an exercise, is really a practice, is really something that we need to train, is like a muscle, right? And not being so reactive, you know, answering right away, you know, it's just like okay, having that kind of maybe in other context is called giving priorities, you know. Is it necessary to answer right away? Is it really an emergency? Or maybe you can wait 10 minutes. We don't have that kind of discernment anymore, again, because we believe you know, we are the two and not. This is not a tool. It's just you know, the fo is a tool. So so and so it's the mind and it's essential, it's a beautiful device, but it cannot run, you know, we cannot be dominated by the mind because the mind separates, the mind doesn't appreciate change while everything is changed. So we need to somehow navigate life, including other aspects, like you know, the body, for example, the body feels the emotional, um, you know, the emotions as well. So, yeah, I hope this is something that people can apply. Maybe just pausing and coming back to the sensations, maybe you know, look around and notice something, noticing your feet on the ground. That's you know, somehow because we go up here in the mind. No, return down, but settling, right? Bring some tranquility.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's uh you've worked uh you've worked across you've worked across internationally and different cultures, people coming from different cultures to you, possibly different religion, religions. What are the universal truths you have found in these techniques?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, is it a good question? You know, uh during my master's as well, which was in the UK, you know, in Bangor, I also offered um MBCT to PhD students. Um and they were from different cultures, many, you know, many also different religions, Muslim, and so on. And it was very important to address again this foundation of the human condition. I want this and I don't want that, and basically, how do I deal skillfully with with these things that I face in life? Personally, and that's my personal um perspective. You know, the crisis that our contemporary society is facing is a crisis of values, really. And and and when there is um value, so I I don't want to say that maybe people that have a religion, but it can be also what we call today nowadays spirituality is also opening your your your system somehow to something that is uh you know bigger than us. And that's something that we need again to reclaim. And you know, the practice is a way to return to that you know, space in ourselves that you know affected by all what happens, yeah. And so, and this is some amount that is you know, is universal. We can call it in many ways, and in we can give different names and understanding, but it's about you know turning back to something that is beyond our mind and our conditioning and our you know, probably difficult experiences that we can frame under the umbrella of trauma, if you wish, or just difficulties and you know, situations that have overwhelmed our system. So, and the value of mindfulness is again going back to the fact that these tendencies are human tendencies. They might be manifesting in different forms and shapes just because the culture is different, but ultimately is about how we navigate that tendency to want things and non-wanting other things and being upset that things are impermanent and that change is unavoidable, and that the body is decaying, right? So, those things, you know, aging, illness, and death, you know, this is where we meet each other as humans, right? So, and that is for me the value of mindfulness is something that is touching into something that is universal as we walk all on this planet.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, absolutely. It's a common thread which connects all the humanity. Teresa, we are coming to the end of an hour, and um, it's been a really beautiful, insight, insightful, and inspiring conversation with you. Is there one final message you would like to leave for the listeners?
SPEAKER_02Well, this is a bit outside of the real mindfulness. But for example, when I we work with mindfulness and pain management, that's one also the area because you know my message is that there is hope. That there are, you know, I the worse faith if you wish, but the the message is that there is suffering and there is also a path towards the liberation, and there is something that really we need to cultivate. And in this hopeless world, it's so important that we spend some time and we direct our mind, we direct our attention to what is nourishing, to what is somehow giving meaning to what we do. And it's not that I need meaning to come into my life and we all need to go, you know, in the first line of Gaza. If that is your way of being meaningful, you know, but it's probably not everybody somehow call. But even if I'm meeting a friend, even if I'm doing something that is so normal in our human interaction, how can I infuse those incidents with meaning? Am I really? Yeah. I'm am I really present to someone? Am I giving meaning to this meeting, or is just one, you know, one more on the list? So rather than trying to look for things from the outside and trying to give meaning to my life, this is something that is emerging from inside. And there where you know I say there is hope because you know, life and the world that is going, my god, indeed, I can't deny, nobody can deny, is challenging. But how can I contribute, at least in the small interaction I have with the world, to be part of nourishment rather than you know, depleting energy, depleting somehow self-absorption, but being you know, interaction in a meaningful way, and then just you know, not taking personally sometimes very important.
SPEAKER_00That's a very that's a very, very powerful message, and that's a message of hope. Well, Teresa, thank you so much so much. And if the if the listeners want to follow you up, what is the best way to get in touch with you or any social media?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I work for for a couple of places in Lisbon, but you know, you yeah, please visit me on LinkedIn. Uh, I'm not very active on social media like Instagram, really. I'm a probably advantage in that, and just because it costs so much any so much energy, I don't consume myself so much Instagram, but please visit LinkedIn. You can message me.
SPEAKER_00I will put your link, I will put your link on LinkedIn. Yes.
SPEAKER_02And please contact me if you need help in with trauma release or with mindfulness. I give personal and also you know, individual support. And if you're just curious, just drop maybe a comment and we will return back to you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much, it's been a really real joy to have this inspiring conversation with you. Thank you for joining us on the Transforming Stress with Dr. Ash podcast. And until we meet again. Thank you so much.
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