Ep. 85 - Sharing Space with Nature: A Conversation with Urban Wildlife Biologist Jessica Merkling

This week on Busted Knees and Pretty Trees, we sit down with urban wildlife biologist Jessica Merkling to pull back the curtain on a job most people never think about until there's an animal causing trouble. We talk nuisance wildlife, human-wildlife conflicts, and the challenges cities face as they work to balance development, public safety, and healthy wildlife populations.
What happens when a coyote moves into a neighborhood? Why do some animals thrive in urban environments while others struggle? And what does a typical day actually look like for an urban wildlife biologist?
From responding to wildlife complaints to educating the public and helping communities find solutions that work for both people and animals, Jessica shares stories from the field and offers a fascinating look at the often-overlooked work of coexistence.
If you've ever wondered what happens behind the scenes when wildlife and people cross paths, this is an episode you won't want to miss.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:09

Hello and welcome to Busted Knees and Pretty Trees. Your rainy day pod shelter with a love for yakking about trail packing, kayaking, probably some sidetracking, and a little bit of wise cracking. We appreciate y'all being here. Yeah. Here at Busted Pretty, we like to go on about getting those rumps in the backcountry, but as you know, a wide variety of circumstances can create barriers between you and that trailhead. Until you realize the barrier is just the back door, the front door. Hell, go out the stoke-generating side hatch. When you cross that threshold, you may not realize it, but you're out there now. There may not be a forest canopy overhead or the cool salty mist of the crashing surf in your well-groomed mustache, but there's still plenty to discover. When we aren't able to pick up and go, we can still scratch that curious itch right here in the heart of our little city. Fort Wayne. And our guest today, who we are absolutely thrilled to have, is going to talk to us about this modern ecology found at the confluence of nature and urban development. It's a topic that we've been quite fascinated in because, well, it's our environment. I am Travis J. White. Across from me is a man that keeps his beloved Ashley well hydrated because this gentleman is a nice tall drink of water. Matty Richardson.

unknown 1:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

That was awesome. God dang. I don't know how you write that. Six hours in a hospital.

SPEAKER_04 1:49

Okay, valid. And of course, our very own glass half full of water, Bradley Grayer. You would say I'm optimistic. How's a glass half full? Oh, I I fucked that one up. Glass half empty. Hey, on a really good day, Brad is halfway. I was tired.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

I don't think I'm pessimistic though. Me neither. We'll have a conversation about that. Side door. Like coming out of a side hatch?

SPEAKER_04 2:27

Anywhere. Like a little bit. Like pop out. Like a helicopter? Yeah, don't what's a side hatch? You don't know where I'm coming from. No. No. Do you remember that tenacious D song about him and Kyle Gass being in a in a hot tub and Jack comes out of the side hatch?

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Is that where it came from?

SPEAKER_04 2:52

I was at the hospital for a long time.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

Good enough for me. We're gonna get the message of this afternoon.

SPEAKER_04 2:57

We have a guest to get some two show. And she might leave if we don't stop. Our guest today comes to us from the Indiana Department of Natural Resources. And what's really cool is she's the solo urban biologist on the squad. Please welcome Jessica Merkling. Wahoo! Thank you for coming.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Yeah! Psyched to have you down here. I was so happy when you said yes. It sounds great. And then you were like, I'll come to your studio. And it's like, hell yeah. And Brad and I were just like, Really? Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

SPEAKER_04 3:33

So yeah, that's I think you're probably our first guest that's come down to the studio that we didn't know personally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Well now we do though. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

We knew the connection for life.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

As she got out of her truck, it was like, now we know her. Done. Done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:51

I feel like you belong here.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 3:53

But yeah, thank you for coming down. And uh you're well, you're also our first government official.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Is that like a is that I think yes, yeah. I mean, I work for the state of Indiana.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

So you I know that you're associated with the DNR, but you're not a DNR agent or whatever. Soldier.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

I'm actually glad you asked that because it's something that if you ever see me talk now, I actually incorporate it into my team now to help guide it. That's where in the Department of Natural Resources, you have like the big Indiana Department of Natural Resources. But what doesn't always get advertised is underneath there's actually multiple separate divisions underneath the department. So like I fall into the division of fish, wildlife, and nature preserves, and then that is separate from division of law enforcement. So like the conservation officers is what I'm doing. Conservation officers, that's right, which is separate from like division of forestry, which is separate from division of state parks, which is separate from division of water. So there's like a lot of different divisions.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

But so I fall within the fish wildlife.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

And how did you uh we'll I we'll get into a lot of the meat and potatoes after our break, but I'm just curious, is like I'll I'll just start with one. I got plenty. Uh how do like what led you to urban wildlife biology? Like it, you know, that's a very neat. Did it start early?

SPEAKER_04 5:24

Was it what drew it to you?

SPEAKER_00 5:27

So Luck and Opportunity, I think. Um I grew up, I grew up northeast in the NF, so I was born in Fort Wayne, but I grew up in Rome City. Um and growing up in my family, like Which isn't a city. Technically, no, it's not a city. It's kind of more urban. I think it's a town. No, yeah, it's not a urban, uh, rural. Yeah, it's pretty rural. And um, so like I like in my family, growing up hunting and fishing and camping and going out, walking outside, that was pretty normal for me.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Um, so like I actually came into a conservation job very non-traditionally. I actually, you know, went through high school thinking I was gonna be a physical therapist. I loved it. I that's what I did my senior project on. I actually went to the University of Indianapolis intending to go into a physical therapy program, which my sister eventually did. She has her DPT from there, but I went there. And I don't know if you guys have this, but there's I don't have a I have a very good memory, but there's few conversations. I'm not sure how I got to where I am there, but I had my I got that promising. My um advisor, I said, Yeah, I'm gonna declare exercise science as my major so that I can go into the physical therapy school. And he goes, I just don't think you want to do that. He goes, I think you should leave it undeclared and let me know if you don't want to just do general biology. So he knew something and I didn't, and before the first semester was even there, I'm like, Yeah, I think I want to do a biology degree. So, like going into a school that's designed for physical therapy and then changing to biology degree, and then it's not, you know, it's not like a Purdue or a Ball State where you assume wildlife.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Right. Man, what a lucky gig. I mean, yeah, that's it's always the teachers. You know what I mean? Yeah. We had, and she knows uh Dr. Jordan Marshall, yeah. And we had the little conversation about just how one of the things that he's most happy about is just seeing these people in his class and then go into biology, go into sciences, whatever that look, conservation, whatever that looks like. But it's just always the teachers that story was his teacher.

SPEAKER_04 7:31

Yeah, it's just Patty's high school teacher on a couple weeks ago. Yeah, it was just an incredible conversation. His biology teacher.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Yeah, he's awesome. And I mean, and I guess I'm one of those stories where it just so happened that I'm just doing a podcast way later in life, but he definitely sparked that for me. So good.

SPEAKER_04 7:50

Oh, you can tell how he would. Yeah. He's just such a great, incredible person that just gets you involved. I agree. Makes it fun.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

All right. We got a boatload to get into. I want to ask about 40 more questions that I'm sure you guys are locked in levels.

SPEAKER_04 8:05

It's so weird not waiting for the uh newspaper.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

I know.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

I do there is one thing. I I always find it interesting how every state, like you're in the in the division of fish and wildlife within the Department of Natural Resources, but then a lot of states are it's like the Alabama Fish and Wildlife. I got it always interests me how different every state's a different name, they call themselves something different.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

And I think you mentioned it on the Florida one, it's like Fort Wayne Game Commission or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 8:34

There's like game commissions, it's very unique to Indiana?

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Not necessarily. Like because I think it's Michigan DNR and like Wisconsin, Ohio DNR. We stick together. Illinois. We stick together.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

So Midwest has DNR.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Possibly.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

It seems like, yeah. Oh. I actually don't know. That's a good question. DMV. That's what that's what interests me. Like every time I'm looking up stories, I always have to stop and realize, oh, that's their state.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Like it's like Texas Parks and Wildlife, so it's very different. Like it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

It's really interesting.

SPEAKER_04 9:05

Now I'm gonna do that. So you only like Texas Parks and Wildlife. Yeah, it really flows. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yeah. They've had like the longest functioning urban program, I think. I think they are like the OGs of urban ecology for a state agency.

unknown 9:19

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

And they have and they have some crazy like African game animals. Texas has everything. Yeah, like they have all kinds of crazy stuff. Huh. Yeah. Look at me alert stuff. We just had a mini newspantry. There you go. Hey, cool. Travis called it the one week Travis Teasies.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

Speaking of that, I got not a Travis Cheesy, but a Travis Query. Oh, okay. Uh that came up to me earlier when we in conversation before we started. And it's is Boromir the highest paid birder? Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Yes. I'm gonna go yes. Yeah. I don't know if he's getting paid much right now.

SPEAKER_04 10:02

There's probably some National Geographic photographers that are getting some.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

Yeah, but they're not Boromir. And Ned Stark, by the way.

unknown 10:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

You don't pay artists. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

You only pay actors. All right, we're digressing again.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

I don't want to get into these questions where you say we take a break, come back and go in. Yeah, sound. All right, welcome back, everybody. We have Jessica Merkling in the house, urban wildlife biologist, not a DNR officer. Yeah. Officer?

SPEAKER_04 10:36

Not a military soldier. Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

I don't know why I said soldier. My brain was clicking and I couldn't come up with anything. Uh, we have a lot of questions, and Travvy, I know you always like to kick this off with uh with one of your questions. So you go to town, buddy.

SPEAKER_04 10:52

Yeah, Jessica, like we always kind of get down to the nitty-gritty of it right off the bat. You you've chosen a profession where you have to, you know, study nature and all that stuff. Like I'm like your job's pretty freaking sweet from my perspective, but at the very core of what it uh we always ask is like what keeps you going out there? What keeps you curious? What's that little thing that it'd be funny if you're like my job? My job, I like to do that. You need a standard to ask the real Patrick question.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah. It's really interesting because I feel like a lot of people, you know, with the state agency, the other district biologists, or in the conservation, like I mean, like I know they say this everywhere, but like, truly, you have people that like I you just love it. Right like you can't help it. And so like selfishly, it allows me to learn more. And like, um one of my coworkers said this to me, and it really meant a lot to me. And he said, like, I appreciate you because if you don't know, you you will ask and you you won't lie about it. Um and I really appreciate that because I feel like he's one of those people that like he has taught me a lot, and you know, just earlier today, I was like, hey, I don't even know how this works. What do I need to do for it? You know, like I I had so many people around me that could teach me, and it just it's so cool for me to learn something new, so selfishly I get something out of it. But then it's also cool to like you know, I think conservation is sometimes a fraught conversation. And um at the Midwest conference I was here in January, one of the keynote speakers was like, Do you become the person that like it's horrible to take a walk in the woods with because you're pointing like all the invasive stuff or all this other stuff? And I was like, Yeah, like I am. But then like you realize, like, okay, and then you teach someone else, kind of like helping other people find what they like. I love snakes, I think they're really cool, but you know that's not everyone's cup of tea. So it's kind of cool to like, well, you can kind of navigate it to what you like, and I like I like loving people feel empowered that they can find the cool in nature that I find.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

There's something out there for everyone for sure.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Yeah, all right. Have you ever been involved in the the DNR Master Naturalist program?

SPEAKER_00 13:11

No, I so I want to be, but I haven't the time like the time commitment and the funding for me to do is kind of hard right now. But um, I do I've talked at some of those books. I genuinely also want to take and learn.

SPEAKER_03 13:25

Yeah, that's what we've been talking about. We need to go through that.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

And each county does function a little differently. So like I I'm not actually very up to date on how involved Allen County's Master National program is, but like I know, for example, Elkhart Counties is really active. Oh, no. So like it just kind of depends.

SPEAKER_04 13:42

How about Wells County?

SPEAKER_00 13:43

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 13:44

Uh well, I think we need some street cred. So we need to start thinking about that.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

They're probably looking for someone to head it up.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Yeah, probably if they do no me.

unknown 13:57

No, I want to learn, but I don't want to do that. Nope.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Nobody wants me teaching classes, I guarantee it. Uh Urban wildlife biologists, urban wildlife and specifically, in 2026, I imagine we have just expanding and expanding and expanding. So I guess uh from when you started or when urban wildlife biology kind of became something, where like where are we at? Like, how has that changed now from when you started? Like, are you seeing a dramatic increase in urban and not wildlife?

SPEAKER_00 14:35

So it's complicated. So, like when I started, I started full-time in 2017. Um, and in 2015 is when Indiana DNR chose to start their urban wildlife program. And at that time they had a north urban and south urban biologist. So actually, Indiana was pretty progressive on having that urban program.

SPEAKER_04 14:57

Was there anything in particular that triggered that?

SPEAKER_00 15:00

I don't know. That would have been before.

SPEAKER_04 15:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Um I I think there's a trend for like addressing these urban areas. So then when I came on in 2017, I kind of followed the previous urban wildlife biologist. She was fantastic, taught me a lot. But when she left, I was kind of finally freed up to kind of figure out some things on my own. Um, and then through that I kind of learned, you know, I have three primary urban areas, but they don't all function the same. Urban areas across the board aren't don't function the same. We have different needs. And then I also learned, okay, well, it's not necessarily lack of habitat, sometimes it's just different habitat or different wildlife species than what you would expect to find in like an urban area. Or um sometimes in urban areas we're actually creating habitat for some wildlife, so they're functioning well, and everyone typically makes the argument, well, there's no place for them to go, which is true for some species, but for some species you're probably just creating more habitat. So just so it's kind of like this idea, there's not any place that's not some type of habitat for something. It's just kind of like what that habitat is and then how the humans and wildlife interact when they're in that urban environment.

SPEAKER_04 16:07

I feel like the more we talk to the people that are out there studying this stuff, like it's stuff isn't this regional thing. Like there's those like the manatees at the power plant. There's these, you know, small little uh ecosystems that exist that would not exist outside of human intervention or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

What is urban wildlife biology in your def def de definition?

SPEAKER_00 16:34

So for what I use that interaction of human and wildlife and how that interaction is influenced by the built environment. So you know, more green uh not green infrastructure, but like the gray infrastructure buildings more heavily populated by people.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

I was gonna say, and like Indiana everyone thinks of it as a rural state, and it is pretty rural, but like realistically, it's a heavily populated state. So cause you have like you know, Indian Fort Wayne, but then you also have Evansville, you have the you know, Mishawakas, you have the go like so you have a lot more of these, like you have New Havens, you know, you have these bigger cities throughout. So they're still function as like urban spaces, even though they're not can't see my air quotes.

SPEAKER_04 17:19

Yeah. Urban spaces by definition.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 17:26

Part of the city. There's there really is a lot more uh urban areas in Indiana than I now that I think about it.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Oh yeah. I mean, and we just it in my opinion, we it just keeps happening more and more. We've done stories or the News Panthers about like grizzly bear populations or wolves or all those different species on the West Coyotes, where they're just like people are building these neighborhoods and they're moving into kind of their area and then talking about how they're those bears are invasive or those coyotes are invasive. And for me, it just always kind of feels like eh, I don't know. Like I think if you if you move to this area and this species have been there for you know millennia or whatever, then it's kind of like you're bad. Like you you did that.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Well, and it's also kind of like this misconception that there's wildlife that's not gonna be here, right? So like coyotes are a really good example. I get calls all the time. There's a coyote in my neighborhood. And I'm like, yes, probably. And um foxes, and yeah, so like I think about like Chicago has a very healthy coyote population, LA. No shit. A very healthy coyote population.

SPEAKER_03 18:37

So like we did a story on Chicago's coyotes.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Yeah. So like they have healthy, so like Fort Wayne's not different, South Bun's not different. Like, there's coyotes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 18:48

And they're not sure, shouldn't be so surprised when you see it. That's what I'm saying. Yes, you step into a boxing ring, don't be surprised that there's a boxer in there.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

You know, no, I'm uh yeah, but you know that there's another box in the ring. I'm just saying, like, it sounds weird.

SPEAKER_03 19:03

Well, and like Fort Wayne has a famous peregrine falcon nest on the tallest building downtown.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yes, that's and it's awesome. I was watching the video the other day, and I love how it has the sign on the side that says donate to here. Yeah, I got the non-game wildlife fund, I think.

unknown 19:19

Oh really?

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Oh, I would assume so.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

I would say uh are you seeing uh kind of an uptick in towns? I know you've been working at this for a long time, and I guess primarily in Indiana, are you seeing an uptick in communities, cities, towns doing more for green spaces, or is it is it worse and worse and worse?

SPEAKER_00 19:40

I feel like there's more interest for sure. Um, I'm I definitely feel like because I've stayed so long in the space that I'm in, I've seen like more interests, more asks. It could also be a symptom of people know to contact me now, but I do think there's bigger interest. I think the hardest part is like traditional conservation funding for private landowners. Traditionally focuses on those large tracts of land. And it can be really hard to fund like a typical backyard habitat in an urban.

SPEAKER_04 20:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

So even though I'm here for technical assistance, I can always do that. But it doesn't always come with funding, which is unfortunate.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

And we're I mean, we're definitely discussing and working on it, but that can be do these uh communities or municipalities, do they reach out to the DNR, or is this something that you're you're trying to figure out like well what this city can do best with their uh nature?

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Sure. So like a lot of it is is the landowner just reaches out to me. Yeah. I can I can talk to him blue in the face. I can even I do a lot of times where I do a whole management plan and then people choose unfortunate. But like I can do everything but force you to do it. So it's more like I wait for them to contact me if they're interested. I'm always happy to have a conversation and then it's just kind of deciding, you know. Um, we just had a site visit today with this lovely woman where we had to like say, we're gonna throw a lot of information at you, but like you still ultimately get to choose what you want to do with your property and think about what you want to do. So we'll give you the information and let you kind of digest it and you let us know what works for you. So ultimately, we're supporting the private landowner with what they want to do with their property.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

Yeah. I feel like if I had a big wooded lot in the country, I would call you up and say, How do I get more warblers here?

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Yeah, you would. Which is perfect because my coworker just taught me about warbler neck because I told you I'm shining it. And it's like warbler neck should be. It's a real thing.

SPEAKER_03 21:34

Oh, it is a real thing.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Turn into warbler back real quick. I'm still suffering from warbler back. I can tell you that right now.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

It's honestly probably good because I'm actively working.

SPEAKER_04 21:45

You know, birding is good for your posture.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

I didn't mean somewhat until for the next week.

SPEAKER_03 21:51

Overcreat overcredible. Tennis album from my lids. Hopkins, too. Yeah, or no. Uh what's the the pitchers get? Tommy Dow. Tommy Dow. Tommy Dow.

SPEAKER_04 22:05

Maybe that's what I was thinking of. Yeah, John Topskins the hospital.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Travis, you kind of made a comment that it's structuring their nature like in cities and towns, but I watched a presentation with her and it's not what they're sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth. But it's not necessarily nature that like we're building little natural spots. I mean, most certainly it is. Okay. But what I find curious about what she's doing some of is the species that are learning to use man-made structures. Right, right, yeah. In what we're in in how their species survives. So I think that's quite interesting. Like the peregrine falcon, for instance, it's living on top of our tar tallest building downtown Fort Wayne.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

House sparrows uh living generation after generation in my gutters. Yeah, exactly. It's an invasive species. I think that's good. And I'm I'm okay with you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

I mean videos where tree sparrows, like they'll put sparrow nets around a building and then the tree, like the sparrows will chew through those and turn that into their nest.

SPEAKER_04 23:08

That's awesome. That's funny. That's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

I'm curious to these towns. Uh one one reason is because we we're birding. And uh Connorsville or around that area just became Birdtown USA, and there's a big kind of I think Lindenwood uh nature preserve is part of Birdtown Uh.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

Yeah, I've been seeing the sign, like Matea, I think. Matea has one, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

I saw that as well. And what that is after looking into that is just it's not for like a like six months they put a lot of effort towards something, it's for like years of effort, not just by a single group, but by the community and education and all this stuff. So I guess that's a really long way. That's a patty way of asking. Is do you find that when these towns are doing more for urban wildlife that it's the city management and the city leaders? Or is it just property owners? It's or smaller groups.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Yeah, most of what I'm seeing is is the I see the trend more for like private landowners trying to do it. So like the bird town, I actually just had a meeting last week to learn more about bird towns. Oh, sweet. So it and that's there's also like how active they are and things like that. But a lot of it's you know, there's a lot of private landowners that care that want to do something, but it's you have to kind of also work within, you know, local ordinances and rules and regulations like that. And navigating that is a fun challenge to try and think about in these so like it's it's something new for me to think about. Like, oh, I never thought about that. I mean, I'm an urban biologist who grew up very rural and still lives rural, but like it's been very educating for me and eye-opening for me to be like, oh, this is what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 24:39

Does private landowners include land trust, like acres or yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

So when I say private landowners, I typically mean non-state or federally owned. Okay. So it could be like local, municipal, typically things like acres, they have their own stuff going on, so they don't really have any help.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

But yeah, they have like the local professors at colleges helping them. Yeah, that's that is true.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

That's yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:06

Where do you find yourself uh working mostly in you're mostly in northeast Indiana or north northern Indiana, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Yeah, so my technical primary focal areas, if you look on the website, are Fort Wayne South Bend, Elkart, and some of the smaller surrounding cities. We did formerly have an Indianapolis biologist, but that's the position that was vacant. It doesn't look like it's gonna be filled anytime in the near future. So um realizing I'm one human and can't make it to all those places, those are my focal areas because I'm here and that's what I was my position was designed for. But then I do try to help in other urban areas as I'm able. I have great um district biologists in other counties that they work with me and each other to help me.

SPEAKER_04 25:49

Like what what's going on down there? What do you got going on down there?

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Uh what what's a I because Travis said this and he now now you're painting this glorious picture. But I I gotta imagine that being the sole proprietor of urban wildlife within the northern part of Indiana uh is daunting. So and and I've read I've watched and I've read so many journals that you've written or articles that you've written, uh speeches that you've given. That's I mean, you're doing a lot. So what is like your day, you know?

SPEAKER_00 26:22

It really depends. It's really fluctuating. Um I don't know. Today I went out and I went to a site a landowner visit. We talked for an hour, walked a property, um, and then I came back and mostly answered a lot of phone calls and questions about wildlife. Really? That was most of my day-to-day. But sometimes it's writing management plans um during deer season. Sometimes it's helping sample.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Would you rather be in the CWD?

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Yeah, like CWC. Like if they drop off, because you know the drop-off coolers and things like that, you know.

SPEAKER_04 26:54

Oh, we did a She's not a DNR stormtrooper, Patrick.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

No, but you made a mention how fun it would be just be like, oh, what's going on down there? But like, I mean, this woman is the sole proprietor of this data.

SPEAKER_04 27:06

Like, that's a lot. Could we get on one of those? Like a cops, except on a pack of like we'll plant a snake in somebody somebody's yard.

SPEAKER_03 27:15

They'll get guys like me that are morale mushroom hunting too early in the day. I mean, get out of here.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

It's at the mercy of the private lane, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

They're mainly interested in the birds, but don't worry, just a couple of nerds out here staring up in the sky. Oh, look, a turkey vulture. Again. As I stated, I read a lot of stuff and watched a lot of what you did, and a lot of what you're you're looking at is invasive species. And coyotes primarily, and other and a lot of other species you were going over.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Coyotes, deer, and Canada geese are my top heavy. Oh, Canada.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Those are your highest geese?

SPEAKER_00 28:10

For six years I wrote Canada Goose Permits. It's now shifted to the permitting team, but really?

SPEAKER_03 28:16

What do they call it? Um, when you have a you get a permit to like take them out? Depredation?

SPEAKER_00 28:22

So depredation tags. A lot of times it's under depredation permits, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

Do you have to have special qualifications for that?

SPEAKER_00 28:31

You have to have the right permits.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

I recently learned like mute swans, you can get depredation tags for.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

You don't even so mute swans are an invasive species because they're horrible for the environment, but they're really basically a charismatic megafauna that a lot of people like. It's a big beautiful bird, it really is. But they if you look at them, they're they're hard on like trumpeter swans that are native swans that are actually state endangered. Um if you look where they're from, like the your Europe and Asia, their their populations are fine where they're from.

SPEAKER_04 29:04

That makes me wonder say there is an invasive animal that the people adore. But it's it's tricky. It's destroying the mute swan.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Mute swan's a very hard conversation.

SPEAKER_03 29:17

Imagine if you had a swan in your fled pond behind your house in one of these like neighborhoods.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

And and and a lot of people you think like the invasive plants, people will like love those. But I think if you're for me, the calls that I get about invasive species that they don't remove want removed is the mute swan. Now, a mute swan on private property can be removed at any time without a permit as long as you're following local ordinances. But if it's on like a public property, you would need to get a permit for that.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

Yeah. Whoa. See, like in this HOA had gotten a permit to take them, but it was also like he was talking like well, and I'm it's emotional.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

It's emotional.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

And I'm sure this wasn't how it was supposed to go down, but somebody was he saw like one of the landscapers that were mowing, like throwing rocks at a swan, and I was like, We got a tag, bro, to kill this thing. And he's just like chucking rocks at this view swan.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Yeah, and that's hard too, because like like I said, I'm a consumptive user, I grew up hunting and fishing, but like ultimately I still want you know as humane of treatment as you can.

SPEAKER_04 30:18

You want to just slingshotting a deer. I was just thinking, like in my head, what's the cleanest way to kill a swan? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Well, and then that's so that's the unique part of like the urban stuff, right? Like everyone, if you talk about someone who has like somebody in the back 40, a lot of it's like just shoot it, but that's not it, like even if people wanted to in urban settings, like a lot of times there's ordinances that prohibit that. And then what you're left with is a lot more intimate, and that can be really hard. Like, I'm I mean, I am okay supporting that if that's what needs done, but I recognize why that's really hard for some people to do. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:52

Not only did you fire a weapon illegally within city limits, but you killed a beautiful animal.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Yeah, it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

It's hard. Coyotes, are coyotes invasive?

SPEAKER_00 31:04

From everything that I have talked with and read and talked with my coworkers on, they're not invasive. Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_02 31:12

I actually knew the answer that you were gonna say because of one of the videos I watched.

SPEAKER_03 31:16

I kind of assume I kind of assume they were.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Oh, see, uh the way people talk about coyotes and interact with coyotes, I mean, people shit themselves when there's a coyote walking downtown.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

Yeah, I love it, bro. People are very, very nervous about them.

SPEAKER_04 31:29

And I think because they're little toy dogs. Like no.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

A lot of people assume that they're bigger than they are. And that's and it's this I mean, I and that's the other thing that like I find so fascinating. I kind of take for granted, like, a coyote doesn't personally scare me, but like I forget that you know, you've had stories of the big bad wolf, and I think of uh was it the nothing on the never-ending story? That's the stuff we're like putting in people's minds, so they're like terrified. And I'm like, well, yeah, if that's what we've been projecting all this time, it's always the big bad wolf that's going after a little red riding hood or the three little pigs, and that's true.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

So it's like this propaganda. Disney. But it is always weird when you see a coyote because way before Disney.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

Because I always have to think to myself, what is that? It's really small. And like, oh shit, that is a coyote.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Yeah, like they're surprisingly small. I just think it's interesting that it's not considered I'm glad, but I think it's interesting that it's not considered an invasive species. When like a limited take?

SPEAKER_03 32:30

Like you can isn't there for coyotes? Yeah, like for private, probably.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

So coyotes are quote unquote a nuisance animal. I don't love the term because if you say a nuisance animal, it kind of has this connotation automatically it's a bad animal if you have it. Right. But it is what it's called in our in our laws, the rules, and regulations.

SPEAKER_04 32:49

Is that because it disturbs the human uh nuisance too?

SPEAKER_00 32:56

I don't know why they chose that wearing, but I think typically if you think nuisance animals, they are traditional fur-bearing mammals, which they're traditionally hunted and used for fur. But there's the option for landowners to remove them on their property if they're causing issues at any time without a permit, so long as they're following local ordinances. But then there's also a season on them. So when we talk about like how conservation's funding, yes, I think removal is sometimes necessary, but I would much rather see like a hunting or trapping license sold because at least that way they're buying into that conservation license. Oh, I understand that.

SPEAKER_03 33:28

Yeah, it's like how some states will ban hunting a certain animal, but then they have to pay their local agencies to go out and kill them to keep them under under their numbers or to keep keep them from not overpopulating, or like nuisance issues where when you could have a hunter paying to buy a tag to go out and hunt that animal.

SPEAKER_04 33:49

Or pull it, or yeah. Is nuisance an official tag you put on an animal?

SPEAKER_00 33:53

No, I have to put a tag on it. It's there's just certain species that are considered quote unquote nuisance. So like I think there's 11 species, so like coyotes, raccoons, possums, gray fox, red hawks.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

Groundhogs?

SPEAKER_00 34:08

So groundhogs technically fall under a different section. So it's super confusing. Pain in the ass. So they're they're an un they're an unregulated season of species. So they're they're the same as like moles or red squirrels.

SPEAKER_04 34:20

Is it because they're just so populous? It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

I don't know how they determined it. I really don't know.

SPEAKER_04 34:27

You could kill a hundred groundhogs in a day. There's not yeah, there's not a bag limit.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

There's not a bot there's not a bag limit or anything like that on Grouthawk.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

What what would you say are like the top three or two nuisance animals that you deal with the most?

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Canada geese is number one by far. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

That makes sense. That does kind of make sense.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Yeah, I didn't know this until I don't know if you know Betsy and Kobiak from Little River when she used to be at Little River. Um Allen County No, we don't.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

We have a little bit of a bone to pick.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

They've got to answer our emails. They don't answer our emails, but we'll get them one day.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

We'll get them one day. Uh but Allen County, I didn't realize until she taught me this. Allen County is the only county in Indiana that has five river systems running through it.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

Oh, wow. So the Little River, Wabash, Mommy, Wabash, St. Joe. Now Wabash. Yeah, Wabash is way south.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

I think it's it's Eel. Oh, St. Mary, St. Joe, yeah, St.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Joe.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

And that's the watershed, right? Little River, Mississippi to Lake Michigan watershed. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Depends on what level you're looking at, and I don't even know how to help you with that because that's what there's different levels of watershed.

SPEAKER_04 35:34

That's what we call drive-by-side. Doesn't it? Doesn't it all split right there at Eagle Marsh?

SPEAKER_00 35:39

That's what you drive by side. It's like the is it the Continental Divide? Or no. No.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

It's something. It's like I thought it was a watershed where everything on this side goes to the Mississippi watershed, everything on that side goes to Lake Michigan watershed. That must be maybe a different river.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

The Lake Erie watershed.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

There's two. Yeah, there's two. I don't know how it works. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 36:11

I think we need to delete this part of the podcast. Especially what you just said. That's the main reason. If I'm wrong, delete it. If you guys are wrong, I don't care.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Okay, this is going to be a long-winded question because I wrote down some stuff. So I'm going to read it straight from my notes. As a birder and wildlife lover, uh last year we took the step to plant all native species plants, which is why I watched that speech of yours. Jay Rosell, do you know Rosell landscaping? That's he is a great human. Gosh darn. He wants to come backpacking with us.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

He's I told him he would be probably fun for that.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

Oh, so fun. And he's a little bit older than us. And he when we he came over for the initial like inspection or whatever. Oh, he's well, he's oh, I don't think you care, but uh we we sat for probably an hour and a half and talked backpacking how he used to be into it, and none of his buddies do it. Oh yeah. Now yeah, super fun. Anyway, we got him over here. My brother uh used him, and then that's how we got kind of hooked up with him. Anyway, I planted those so I can get native insects, I could get birds back there. And also everything is our back in our backyard's edible from our apple trees to the raspberry, lavender, everything. Everything in our backyard you can put in your mouth. It's wonderful. Or smell. The lavender smells great. The ego is huge.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

So you need to make it, did you put it in a way like birch, how they had that um lavender yoga section?

SPEAKER_02 37:37

But it's right next to my patio. So when the breeze is going, you just smell strong lavender. Even better. It's so nice. Uh one of the reasons I did that is so I could attract those birds and stuff. I keep getting confused. But I know we've we've had discussions on here about bird feeders, and you talk about how you absolutely despise bird feeders.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

I've changed my tone since then a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

She is not a proponent for bird feeders yet.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

I'm not a proponent of feeding wildlife, period. Yes in general, but now I'm recognizing like the number one pastime for folks for wildlife engagement is birds on feeders.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Yeah, that's probably correct.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

So that's why like I've learned to in a nicer way. It's it's challenging because I think when people think of like helping wildlife, they only ever think of the food. Like baby birds cannot eat seed. They can't. They need like 95% insect protein. So like when you plant like native plants, then you're doing the habitat. So it's the food, it's the shelter, it's the space to get from point A to point B, and likely in Allen County you're gonna have water nearby anyway.

SPEAKER_04 38:52

Because of our rare uh our visit to Mary Gray Bird Sanctuary, they talked about piling up like sticks and stuff so that bugs can crawl around on that, and the birds love that stuff. So thank you for that, Jim. And I did that. I did that in my backyard.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

Like a brush pile.

SPEAKER_04 39:11

Not a great, it's not aesthetic.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Wait, did you do that before or after you learned that it was a good thing to do? After. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

But then it can be also challenging though, because you have like an ordinance is about plant height. So like there's a lot, like they'll say your plants can't be so high, you must mow. Or like I've had communities where brush piles were a huge thing. So, like, that's that's the other fun part of navigating, is like getting all the ordinances in the same place is what's good for the habitat while also maintaining where people have to live.

SPEAKER_04 39:39

So it's I'm gonna build a fence so nobody can see that shit. Do whatever I want.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

You should build a fence that way we can celebrate all the things in your backyard and not be bothered. You know what I mean? Privacy fence. Privacy fence, that's right. So is there a line? I just I I for our listeners, I have kind of two questions. One, is there a line in your sand where you draw between where feeding wildlife moves from kindness to harm? And then is there any like if people are putting out bird feeders? And you can say it under your breath as well if you want. Like if you're just like talking to shit, like if you got a bird feeder, then take it out by Labor Day or whatever. I don't know what I say lay it out, be honest. Is there anything else? I have a lot of things, but I'm not a liar.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Is there anything kind of so the hardest part for me is you know, there's no state rule against feeding wildlife at any point in time. But if you think of like the the trouble that I get with bird feeders is let's say you think about you're trying to find feed your songbirds, right? But then they're messy eaters, they get seed everywhere. And then if you think of the things that come to eat the seed and the things that come to eat the things that eat the seed, that's when you get like the panic of like, oh my gosh, there's a coyote, what do I do now? And and then sometimes you're attracting like maybe it's a ground, I don't know if groundhogs, but maybe it's a groundhog or something like that. You're attracting something that you didn't mean to attract with that food, so then it becomes a conflict, and then you're asking me how to get rid of it. And so most of the time, if you're calling me and there's food involved, my first recommendation is get the food out of there. Get the food out of there.

SPEAKER_03 41:10

Yeah, yeah. I've watched a cooper's hawk eat a blue jay that it took off.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

I've had that call. I've had someone tell me they were so mad at me, they they put up a bunch of bird feeders and they said that a hawk was picking off all the sombers. I said, probably. You said that that's awesome. And then she got so mad at me and said, You don't understand. It's raining bloody feathers. And I'm like, I believe you.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

I know questioning. Gooper's hawks are brutal. That's what they do.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

It seems so just uh throughout all this stuff, and uh it just seems so like to me. Like all this. What do you mean? Well, like us moving into territory. You know that I've had these discussions before with you guys, like us moving into territory where species live, and then complaining about the species that are there, and then feeding birds, and then complaining to Jessica that there's a Cooper's hawk snatching up birds. Story as old as time.

SPEAKER_04 42:02

Get off your right, just those damn buffalo.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

Just learn. Just learn. What really sucks is they cut all the trees down now, too, with every neighborhood. Uh development is definitely rampant right now. From like insurance, I think, is the reason. Really? Home insurance.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

And that's definitely like something like I I know I happen to listen to the Dora H episode, but like, man, if I had a bunch of trees blowing out my property, I'd be thinking about it too.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Like sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

You know, in South Bend, they have a ton of crows hanging out in their property um their city now during winter because they're doing the whole big gatherings in South Bend, and one of the options is to cut down trees. So that's hard too. Like, I don't know, like it's it's always figuring out what you want to battle.

SPEAKER_04 42:40

Where does like it's you you you can build these buildings and these urban spaces, but you have to do maintenance, otherwise they will fall to the ground. And nature is like the worst thing for buildings and structures and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Yeah. I agree. I agree. I I mean, I agree, but it just i I guess it is a balance. Maybe if it's something where you had like uh something destroying your home, but I don't know. I just feel like I love it. Like I want more tree. If a tree lands on my house like and it doesn't happen on, then like screw it. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like I'd rather be.

SPEAKER_04 43:23

If it's right over your bedroom, you know, Baszy's bedroom.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

Yeah. But if you like if you if you ever go to bicentennial acres up north Fort Wayne, and there's something where that Cedar Creek area is like the longest or one of the largest contiguous old growth forests in the north of Indiana.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Something like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:45

And so when you're walking through Bicentennial, like it's beautiful. It's like there's huge trees, it's glorious. And then you get out and you take a left out of Bicentennial, and you go to all these subdivisions, and you think to yourself, Oh, this used to all. Be biased.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Well, it's so funny because there was like like Hawks retreat and fox run. I'm like, but where? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:06

Yeah. Mallard Roose.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Like all these things. Sorry. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 44:11

Like that always, it always that's what I every time I leave there. That's what I think. Like, oh, this used to all be old growth forest. Well, recently.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

And that destroys like the corridors that like Jessica talks about. It's uh it like how does those how do those species move from one forest to another forest? From you know, it's just cuts every it's just so bad right there.

SPEAKER_04 44:32

Is the these animals have to move from one place to another, and I think we see like the most devastating part of that meeting of nature and urbanization is on the highways and on the roads.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

But some of those places are like they're coyote and deer magnets. Like they're those edge species that thrive there, so like you're not getting maybe some of the birds you guys probably like to see in those old growth forests or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

I guess it's always warblers.

SPEAKER_04 45:03

I'm just gonna assume warblers. During the migration, it's warblers.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

No, I like waterfowl too.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

How does urban noise, light per uh, light pollution, and then fragmentation affect wildlife?

SPEAKER_00 45:18

I know very minimum about all this, but I know there's impacts. There's um uh what they call it, soundscape ecology that there's some great He's out of Purdue. But there's there's some soundscape ecology that they're talking about that like the sounds that really do affect wildlife and movements, and then it affects me and everything.

SPEAKER_04 45:35

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

And the lights with birds, I mean, I'm sure that's you guys to like kind of the lights with birds, and then um the so I mean that's the biggest a big issue. So the number one reason we're living wildlife, we're losing wildlife across the planet is loss of habitat.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

And part of that's fragmentation, and then number two is invasive species. So like when you're planting like not just non-native, but specifically invasive species around your house, then you're like taking them, you know, it's taking over and taking away valuable habitat for our native wildlife that we want. And you know, in urban areas where you kind of get sold into like these certain landscaping plants, cosmetic gardening. I'm sure like Dr. Marshall talked about the calorie pair and you know, all these things that people really, really like because they have this traditional aesthetic. And I'm learning that our view of what a lawn should look like goes back to like ancient Rome. So we have some like deep-seated like value of manicured lawn that we have to like unlearn.

SPEAKER_03 46:32

It almost drives me crazy now. Like, I'd rather have just like a wild yard. It really is. Well, you don't need to think about that.

SPEAKER_04 46:38

We've developed these machines that we pay hundreds to thousands of dollars for to make sure our little grass is just.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Well, and I know people who love to mow, I don't get it personally, but they they genuinely it's a craft, you know?

SPEAKER_03 46:53

And a freshly cut yard does smell nice.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

It does, but it doesn't have to, I mean, like, but you could also treat the yard with with with uh with chemicals that are friendly towards the environment. You can plant things around the yard. So it doesn't have to be that it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

All or nothing, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

There's a lot of things that you can do around your house to be able to promote native species, including planting native species.

SPEAKER_04 47:19

And don't put mulch around your trees. Or don't do it the wrong way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Some other plants are. Donuts are good, volcanoes are bad. Donuts of mulch around your tree. Forrester taught me that. Yeah. So to put a donut of mulch around your tree, volcanoes bad.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

Donut? No volcanoes. No volcanoes. You hear that, Travis? I hear it. I can picture that. Are there some species that are like in in your 10 years or over 10 years of of work? Or have there been some species in your experience that have been evolving to be better in an urban environment?

SPEAKER_00 47:51

So there's some of that. Uh I know that coyotes, there's a general trend towards more nocturnality because they're like, okay, fine. If you're gonna be up later, I'll just move later. Um raccoons and problem solving to get accounts. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:06

But their little fingers.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

I I I love raccoons. I've I've caught so many raccoons on my porch, or when I leave for work in the morning, there's little raccoon paw prints. Oh, man. And I just think it's the cutest.

SPEAKER_04 48:20

And I mean, that's probably they've one of the best adapters.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

Oh, they're so adaptable, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

And around cities and people. This is gonna sound bad, but you remember when we were talking about owning a monkey a while ago? A capuchin. A capuchin. Or any monkey. When you guys were talking about that in my life. I hope they become invasive.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

I am laughing so hard because this is like a debate my husband and I have had. He's like, why wouldn't we be a monkey? He said, We're not getting a monkey.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

It wouldn't be awesome until you watch the documentary. Is that a deep thing? What is being ripped off?

SPEAKER_03 48:53

It's like Tarzan getting like champs and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 48:55

Dude, that capuchin monkey would still rip your face off.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

I had a negative interaction with one as a kid, and I'm like, no, you Primates Man are hard line of no.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Not messing up.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Just that just I want to want to, and I think like that's probably what drew me on. Like, you always want to touch the cute, cuddly thing. Yeah. But like it's really just a bad idea.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

I know. I wouldn't touch it. I just want one. I just want to put a big one. I just want to find a baby.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

My dad had a pet rat congratulation. See?

SPEAKER_02 49:22

I just want to find a baby and be like, well, looks like you gotta come home with me, but get a permit first. Oh, I wouldn't do it. I'd probably turn it into something. You gotta get a permit when they're cuter.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

Yeah, so I didn't even know it was an asset. So most animals, if you're taking it from nature, and this this is a really hot conversation I have, and this it's tis the season because a lot of babies are out. A lot of people see these baby animals and they care so much, but a lot of times they're really harming those babies long term. A lot of people are like, well, I watched for a whole hour and it's not the mom didn't come back. I'm like, Yeah, that's that's not enough time. Like, give it space. I don't know. I would feel I don't know. You're a parent, I don't know. Are you guys parents at the end? No, but like, how would you feel if someone was staring at you, like, are you taking care of your character? Yeah, we're like, I would feel weird about that.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

So, like, yeah, I agree. I would never do it.

SPEAKER_03 50:07

That's people send me pictures of like a newborn, like a bird, a fledgling, just sitting in one spot for a while. And that's all I'll say. I'll like the parents know, like they'll call the parents know where they're at. Yeah, they just let them fawns right now are really big.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

They are made to lay and just hold still until mom comes back.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

We've run into at his uh family farm. Like, remember that one time. Oh, just lay in like we stopped the four-wheeler and looked over and we're like, oh, three feet standing right next to it, just still as well.

SPEAKER_02 50:38

Yeah, because that is what I mean. That's a survival technique to stay bedded down. We didn't see it. And you're and you're gonna be good. You won't be hunted, nothing.

SPEAKER_04 50:47

That kind of can backfire in the agricultural, like in the fields. Because the babies will just lay down and won't move, and those that equipment will just go around and go, gosh, geez.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Don't do that stuff. Don't do that. I know it's the truth. It's the truth, it's hard. Man, that's a sad thought.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Well, and that's the other part, too, is you know, um, it's this is gonna sound so harsh, so feel free to edit as you need to. But uh, you know, wildlife dies every day if we don't see it. Right. Um, and even like I said, I am a consumptive user, I actively hunt and fish annually. And it is still hard, it's still a life, right? The population levels are fine, so that's why people do get frustrated. They call Dina like, aren't you gonna save it? Unfortunately, no. The answer is no. Um, and like if everybody wants to go to a rehab, or rehabbers fill up too, and they're not state employees, they are not required to take in wildlife. So if they fill up and for any reason can't help you, you know, like have a plan before you capture the animal. I get a lot of people like, why it's caught, and now what do I do? It's like, well, have a plan before you catch it. And and as harsh as it sounds, and as mean as it sounds, like I try to encourage people, save rehabbers if the injury is human induced. Wildlife does have to die in order for wildlife, other wildlife to be healthy. And it's it's harsh, it's harsh and it's not fun, but when you care, think about how you're kidding.

SPEAKER_04 52:07

I get excited when I see other animals like kill other animals naturally. It's fun to watch. Patty and I watched it.

SPEAKER_03 52:14

Well, it's interesting to watch. Interesting. Yeah. Sorry. Well, it's like watching that Cooper Stock snatch up a blue jacket.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Well, it's totally gonna go like down to like I don't know. The first time I heard a coyote get a rabbit, I was terrified. It's horrible, dude. It's horrible. And you know, I have to like remember that like that emotion of like I remember vividly running in, like, dad, there is something in the woods, but like it's it's hard, it's not fun. Yeah. Um it occurred to me like two years ago now. We were watching some nature documentary with the kids, and I said, You're probably this is a total digression. But they had like these wolves attack a coyote, and I go, Oh. And my husband's like, What? I said, I now know why they never put sound in the wildlife documentaries. He goes, What do you mean? I said, That sounds awful. I can guarantee you that sounds awful.

SPEAKER_04 53:03

Yeah, that's a good pack of canines together going crazy. Yeah, that's a brutal sound.

SPEAKER_03 53:09

We heard that in the Appalachian Mountains. Yeah, oh really? We heard them like a pack. See, I don't know if do coyotes go in packs, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:16

They're more often family groups.

SPEAKER_03 53:18

So they were like circling the mountain, like chasing something. And we just hear we heard it like it was pitched. You could hear them and they found something.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

Yeah, and it's it's I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:26

It sounds like they're ripping whatever it is just into tiny.

SPEAKER_00 53:29

I recently coyotes have this really cool, it's called the Bogeste effect. So I don't speak French, so I apologize. But we don't even know there's multiple say that once there's three or more coyotes vocalizing, you can no longer accurately determine the number of coyotes that are calling because they have this ability to make them appear more than they are. Uh-huh. And it works on other canines and it works on humans. That's badass.

SPEAKER_02 53:52

So it's that's that brave heart effect. Stand behind this mountain scream, dude, scare the shit out of them. Don't mess with them. Out of your armor.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

But it's really, it's really fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 54:01

That is really fascinating.

SPEAKER_04 54:04

Yellow. There's a ton of people in there.

SPEAKER_02 54:09

Uh whatever that is, about sh just making yourself bigger and screaming. There's battle tactics where they would stand in a forest and make civil war, where they would make tons of sounds, scream, shoot, light off round. Yes, I remember. I read that in the thorough book. Yeah, I think. Thank you. And then scare the other, they would just walk away because they're like, well, fuck that. And like 20 dudes walk out of the woods.

SPEAKER_03 54:30

Stara with their masks on, like coming through the woods. That's why I'm screaming. Fear. I do really want to see a wolf someday. Like I do, but I don't. I would love to from afar. Yeah. That's the thing. Like, I like that from afar. Yeah, for sure. Like with my bins or my camera.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

I think for me, it was one of those I I don't know what age it was. There's probably some documentary or probably a coyote getting a rabbit where there was that epiphany where I think at some point when you're losing your childhood kind of dreamy nature or world that you realize that that thing, that nature is so brutal.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

It's really interesting because I think I take for granted, like, I don't, it's such an interesting conversation. So my daughter, when she was two, my dad successfully harvested a deer off our property.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

And I said, Yep, he got a deer. If you go get ready for bed, you can see him. And my husband pulled me aside, he did not come from a hunting family. And he said, Shouldn't we have talked about this? And I said, You know what? I'm sorry, I didn't think about it. My whole life, this was normal. This was normal for me. And it never occurred to me that you know, maybe this is not normal for everybody. So, like, you know, we the next time we were very good about like we had her out there, she helped us feel dressed a deer. We said, Hey, if you have questions, let us know. If you feel uncomfortable, let us know. And you know, my dad's like, Well, you don't have to say that. I'm like, No, but she needs to know she's not forced to do that. So, like, it's it's it's something that I think I take for granted, but some people are not, and that's okay. It's a it's valuable to be a non-consumptive user, but you have to really think about some of those things.

SPEAKER_03 55:59

Good point. Even explaining the reasoning behind it, I think is better to non-hunters and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 56:05

Oh yeah, we talked about like I know we talked about like, hey, you remember the chili we had earlier today? There was venison in that, and this is how we get our venison.

SPEAKER_02 56:12

And venison chili is good. No doubt about it. How do you measure success in wild urban wildlife management?

SPEAKER_04 56:20

Damn, that's a good question. Ah, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

Um, so it kind of depends. If it's for wildlife, I think if we leave the conversation, they're less either angry or they're at least feel they maybe don't have to like it, but they at least have an understanding of what's happening and what they can do to make it better. I think that's really big success. Or for like habitat, if they choose to like put in habitat, and um a lot of times I never know if they do or do not, but then I get a call, you're like, guess what I saw on my property? That's just so cool. Oh yeah. It's so hard because I'm I'm a person who just loves to learn different things, but then I have these amazing coworkers like, you know, education alone doesn't work, all the studies tell you that. So trying to find that why, I'm trying to be very I'm trying to be better about what what do you want to see and what like makes you think and trying to find that.

SPEAKER_04 57:10

What we talked about earlier is being that good teacher, that special kind of teacher that sparks curiosity. Does you don't you can inform millions of people every day and never move the needle, but you have to have that ability to spark that passion.

SPEAKER_02 57:28

That's a good call. There's a difference. Yeah. If you I mean, I imagine just knowing you for the last hour or so. I imagine that you are you when you show up to somebody's property and you're walking walking around like that, you would be she'd be the person I'd want to show up.

SPEAKER_03 57:44

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

You know what I mean? Like chat. Let's get let's get down to business here. Yeah, we don't want a Dotillo, you know. I'm not gonna say anything. That's between you and Dr. Dotillo. Uh one more tours of science and ecology so Travis doesn't go burnt, dude. He's not listening. We had a geologist on a paleontologist from uh from PFW as well. Travis and him have quite the history. That's which is why I'm not saying anything. Uh what excites you the most or gives you hope about the future of urban uh wildlife?

SPEAKER_00 58:20

I I genuinely think there's just more of this interest there, and it just it's kind of cool, like it really so as fraught as someone's of the development may feel like, and I tell people this all the time. I'm like, you may feel like you're the only person fighting this battle, but there's a lot of people out there, and um I think I don't know, it just makes me feel good because like the people that are wanting to do the stuff on the habitat that are into conservation, they're really a supportive group, and like that sense of community is really, really cool. And I mean I agree.

SPEAKER_02 58:52

Wait, say say that let me I I heard you. I just say that I heard you just wasn't listening. Yeah, I heard that part, but sense of community in what? Like people getting more people getting interested.

SPEAKER_00 59:05

Like they're just interested in like I think people are starting to ask the questions and they want to do habitat, they are maybe more and I think it's not fair to say because I think a lot of people in my line of work will say, well, urbanites just don't care about wildlife. And I'd I used to be one of them, but I think I'm learning it's just a different connection. Like, if they have a bunch of invasive plants in their backyard, but that's what they think of nature, like that is their nature. So you have to kind of learn to meet people where they are.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Dude, we promote that all the time, and that's what I thought you said. And I I I one of the big kind of side effects, the one of the posit most positive side effects of us doing this podcast is the amount of people that reach out to me on a weekly basis, friends, family, whatever it might be, listeners from around the world, uh that reach out to us, and they're just sharing like a photo of a bird, or they're sharing like a story about they went on a hike. I have a friend that's uh been in southern Indiana for a week. I'm pretty sure me and my mom have made a new connection. Yeah, yeah. And he was super afraid. He's a bigger, very big gentleman. Not big, but like big. He's just a big old boy.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:13

And uh he he was always so concerned about going hiking and backpacking because he thought he would just kill him. And now he for a week he's been out exploring Morengo caves.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:24

Especially because our things like we'll do like eight miles a day backpacking. We're not doing like 20, 30 miles a day backpacking. We're out there for the experience, we just want to be outside.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

So I imagine that I mean, in in our little realm, that community is awesome and it's been growing. Our community has been growing and growing. We have people we've talked with Birch up in Detroit that has the arboretum. And this guy was an English high school teacher and just found this passion of just like Johnny Apple seeding his way through Detroit. And now he has some of the largest koias in the Midwest are in Detroit, Michigan, in Ham Tramock, which or Pole Town, which is generally conceived or uh uh considered the hood, you know. And this guy, he's his goal is to make Detroit the greenest city on earth because where else absolutely beautiful you should go. We walked for two hours through quote unquote the hood in the house. We took a lot of better. I'll have to check it out, something crazy. Absolutely amazing. And so, yeah, I I just wanted I heard you, and I just wanted to say, like, I totally get that the community around this, and you can you can tell that there's a spirit of conservation, no matter who it is.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:39

Like you know, I really get that feeling, everybody we kind of talk to.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:42

There's well, just anyone. Everybody's doing their little little part. Yeah, that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:49

The short amount of time that I've been birding, I go to Solomon Farms a lot. Yeah, yeah. And that I don't think that's scene because they have the big loop trail that goes around the outside, the puffer belly goes right next to it. So I don't think a lot of people think of that place as like a nature-y kind of outdoors place, but there is a ton of trails that are off of the paved trails that you can hike around. I'm out there a lot and people see me like looking at a tree, like trying to find something. And it seems like more and more and more recently people ask, like, what are you looking at? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:22

Well, and I've also learned, so like I'd imagine probably some of us are in the same thing. Like, if I went out west, like, I don't want to see a grizzly in Mount Line, I don't want to see like the bit, but like it's okay if someone seen a cardinal on their bird feeder feels that same way. Oh, and like I had to learn that. I was like, Yeah, that's fair. Like, if that is their like exciting moment, like why like who am I to tell you that that's not cool?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:46

I think that was that's right. When Jabin was on, I think we all kind of all agreed. And Jabin said the cardinal was his most underrated bird, and the blue heron is like his favorite bird. And I'm kind of like, I've I love seeing blue herons and I love seeing cardinals. But it's just such a normal bird.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:02

They're very common around here. Part of the Coskiasco uh Audubon Society, been taught a lot. He was my old biology teacher. And just for him to be those those two birds, like you would you would just kind of imagine that somebody that's so into birds that they would be some crazy species of avian creature.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:20

There's like reach a certain level and then you come back to your roots. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:27

Uh that is a good way to put it, Travis J. Way to go. Way to go, Travis.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:34

Thanks, Patrick. I need a category.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:36

Well, you said I had a good question earlier, so I'm returning the favorite, bro. Uh is there an animal you personally admire the most in the urban environment?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:46

So I don't know. I'm a I'm a snake person. I I did my research on Massasaga rattlesnakes with Dr. Um Dr. Mark Jordan at Purdue Fort Wayne. Um, so I I like snakes. I get really excited about snakes. I don't see them often. Um I'm embarrassed today.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:04

Snakes are a uh very divisive.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:07

They're a very I had one person call me and he was very angry. And he said, You will come out and you will kill all the snakes on my property. And you know, those are the days where I have like rough days. So I was like, I will not.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:18

Like, well you're telling me to do what?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:20

Yeah, but like there's there's still that mentality, and that's why it's like, and and we were talking about like the wildlife interactions, and then it there's this like assumption if you call DNR, whether me or a law enforcement, we're gonna just come out there and deal with it. And unfortunately, that's not true. Like most agents, most state agencies have like animal control operators that you can use for hire for that because that is we would get absolutely nothing done. Like for Wayne has animal control, and forward animal can control, because if I feel like you have foreign animal can control has jurisdiction over domestic animals. Oh and DNR does not have jurisdiction over domestic animals. So like a lot of people they get really upset if they call these societies humane societies and they're like, why or the the animal care and control like, why aren't you taking this? Well, because of like jurisdictional allegations.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:05

What if Travis's pet kapuch and monkey escapes? Is it a domestic or I am totally sending that to someone not me? Feral.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:14

I imagine that I would probably contact the permanent biologist to be like, hey, do you have someone that has escaped capucha monkey? That's what I would probably. I mean, like, honestly, though, do you think primates go after face and hands? That's not that's not something I want to fight. Do you guys remember the Lucas of the chimp? Yeah. Yeah, like that didn't be it. That like solidified no problem.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:35

Is that the lady that got ripped apart? Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:39

When we were in Costa Rica, the capuchins, some of them came down to the ground. Yeah. And me, that's when me and Sarah were like, oh, shit just got real. Like we move it, move it along.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:50

When I went to Costa Rica, I went for a class and we put our stuff up on the beach because tides are a thing that I don't understand. But um, they were like stealing people's stuff, and I was like, hey, let's.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

Oh dang, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:03

It's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:04

I imagine when we're talking about this, like in a in a cop drama where like the FBI shows up and like the local police is there, and they're like, this is our jurisdiction. And they're like, well, take it up with my superior bub. And then like you, so you have these two people fighting over who's gonna take over this crime scene. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:24

I'd watch it. Yeah, so would I.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:25

So would I. So would I. Oh, that'd be great. Oh, now I'm in my brain. Uh, do you have a moment in your career that made you think, this is why I do this?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

Yeah, and it actually wasn't too long ago. Oh, right. And in fairness, I don't know where the project is at now. I haven't heard contact, but that's okay. So there's a woman who is in around the indie area where the developer put in this new HOA and they had I think about 16 acres that was just grass that wasn't being done with anything, but it's because it was near like a creek, they couldn't do much with it anyway. And she was like, Hey, you just mow this all down, do something with it. They essentially told her to kick rocks, but then she was like, Well, no, this is just wasted space that we're mowing and it doesn't even it's not even good stuff, it's like thistle. And she she got in contact with the district biologist down there who called me because it was urban. And she's like, I feel nuts because no one's listening to me. I said, Okay, and I realized like there's a lot of people in my world, but I realized like it's easy for me to understand because I've lived it for eight years, but then I realized, okay, like let me get everyone at the same time at your property. So we did that. We got her set up, we got her some funding, got her some good like recommendations, and then we followed up with a couple months later, and she actually got pretty emotional, which surprised me. And she's like, I just thought I was nuts, and like someone finally listened to me. So it was really cool to hear that. Now, I don't know if the project's still ongoing, but like at least she had a moment of like, I'm not crazy, but it is a lot of work to take on like 16 acres in a highly urbanized area.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:02

Yeah, and that sounds like it could be an but that sounds like I mean that's big enough to where it seems like a non-for-profit would be hard.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:09

It's hard.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:10

That's a big spot. That is an awesome moment, though.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:13

It was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:14

Good for you and good for her. That's awesome. I love that. Only thing I have left, dudes, is the rapid fire questions. We started doing this with our guests uh a few guests ago. I just think it's a fun way to kind of wrap it up. Uh, we've gone through a ton, we spent a lot of time with you, Jessica, and I appreciate your time down here. But I think old Bradley R is going to go ahead and take these over. So go ahead, Bradley R. That was for Brad's mom. He did not like me calling Bradley D. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:42

I I had questions about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:43

Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:44

I'll answer him. His middle name is Richard. Patty decided to call him Dick. No, you did it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:50

You did it first.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:51

And then I have executive privilege through a grandfather clause. Your grandfather did it. I still have a lot of work to do with this family, like meat.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:01

And my grandfather's name was Richard, and he went by Dick. And I'm named after him. That's very clever. So Bradley D. But my mom's like, Your name's Bradley R. Well, rapid fire, baby.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:11

Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:12

Most misunderstood urban animal in Indiana.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:16

Canada geese.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:17

Oh, misunderstood. Why do you think they're misunderstood? They're just passing through, bro.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:22

I think that people kind of forget that they are a conservation success story. And everyone just is so angry that they're there. But like they thrive where turf grass meets water, which is urban areas and next to waterways. And a lot of people get angry on them, but like they're a conservation success story, but because they're not rare. I I keep doing air quotes, you guys can't see it. So like that because they're not rare, people don't like appreciate them sometimes for what they are.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:50

I find when they're they're hanging out a lot at um like those businesses that have the water drainage ponds or whatever. So and those are the only animals around those ponds. Yeah. So the yeah, the only people they're pissing off are the people that own that. But on Travis, this is rapid fire.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:18

Go ahead, Brad. Number two. And their goslings are cute.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:22

Uh one species that thrives in cities better than people expect it to. Definitely coyotes.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:27

Coyotes. I could see that. Me too. Where do they find where do they get their main rapid fire, Travis? Travis, rapid fire. I just want to know the main meal.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:35

In Indiana, from my understanding, their favorite food is rabbit.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:37

Rabbit. Cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:38

Nice. They're everywhere. Didn't you want to know? Glad I asked that question. Yes. Kind of. Bird feeder or native garden? Native plant garden. 100% native garden. Oh, she's still there. Okay, good. Uh night shift wildlife call or early morning field survey.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:53

I'm a morning person by nature. I love like during the woods wake up. I just love the early morning.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:59

Nice. That was something we went to the Ball Nature Preserve. Okay. Me and Chad, uh kind of our bird father.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:09

I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:11

And that was, he wanted to get there like at 6 30 or to hear the morning that, like the forest come alive. And it was.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:18

Yeah, I mean, like growing up hunting, I I would always pick but I really like just sitting and just watching a week.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:25

It is glorious. I do have to try to find a kingfisher every now and then. Okay. Are they more rapid fire? Rapid fire bird nerve. Uh night shift. Uh one word to describe urban coyotes.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:43

Permiscuous. Resilient. Oh, Lord.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:46

I was gonna say, like, Wiley seems too on the nose, but like, Wiley is perfect.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:51

Yeah. Son of a bitch. Ladies knew it back then. Yeah, Living Teams had it right. Yeah. Yeah. I was curious about that just because I'm super uber curious about people's uh uh stuff about coyotes. We're just interested. Is that all five?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:05

I mean, like, but everybody like loves birds. They're like, they mate for life. I'm like, cool, so do coyotes. So, like, why is that not like a selling point for coyotes?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:11

Because coyotes aren't as colorful and they they're they're considered nuisance. They're vicious wild dogs.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:19

So there's actually a fun podcast that we actually have on our website, or not a podcast, there's a webinar on our website that you can get to from a Purdue person who's like expert in coyotes. And they said, I think in there it's like you're more likely to be struck by an errant golf ball or um champagne cork and then be attacked by a coyote, and most of the issues with coyotes come from being fed.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:42

Yeah. Yeah. No doubt about it. Well, it almost seems like does a lot of hate to coyotes come from hunters, like they're killing the the fawns?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:52

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:53

I think farmers, maybe? That's what I've always got.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:57

Well, when I went to like the the Trapper's college, I had the opportunity to go there, and I think at one point there was like this research about like how rampant they were, and like if you get rid of them, like that's the way, but they're compensatory breeders, so like when you get rid of them, they'll have more babies. So, like I think he from my understanding, there was some big research that they preliminary put out these results, and then they realized that they were not like after final analysis, that was not the correct thing. So, like people kind of latched onto it, and I think they're just misunderstood.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:24

I have that's how I feel about it. The misunderstood thing would be yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:29

That brought me to a question. Is is are there any efforts going into trying to come to like a mutual agreement with some pest or nuisance species? You mean like for like I don't know, like with technology or with it?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:52

I think a lot of it's just like reframing what you're doing. Like, I don't know. I I mindset, yeah. I think it's mindset and like managing expectations, probably. Yeah. Um like removing all wildlife is not realistic, nor should it ever be the goal. So, like kind of getting people expect like you're never gonna like I tell people all the time, like going back to Canada Geese, you can remove every last Canada goose there, but you have good habitat, and the habitat will never hold more than what it can hold. So, like the idea of too many or too little is typically so there's like the biological carrying capacity, which is like the environment will hold what it can hold, but then there's like the social carrying capacity, and that's when people say, Well, there's too many of X, Y, and Z based on whatever the parameters are. Yeah. So when people are like, Well, you're not managing, well, it's kind of like case by case basis. This community may say there's too many, this community may not. So it just kind of depends.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:41

And it's easily influenza.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:43

Between like multiple consensuses and with science on, you know, right.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:50

Somebody could run a campaign like geese are great, and like all the reasons why geese are great, and then change the tide of a neighborhood, or somebody else could run one saying geese are horrible. And everything in between.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:04

Right. Well, and like now that I have kids, I have a little bit of a different appreciation. Like, I'm not afraid of a goose. It won't happen twice. But like I I have, like I said, I have a six-year-old, I have she's probably hitting all herself now, but I have a four-year-old and I have a uh almost four and almost two-year-old. Like, yeah, I can understand why you're a little bit more worried about a goose like running into your kid on the park. I can get that, I can see that.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:25

They can they can sound pretty scary. Trying to walk up on a goose ever. Yeah, I don't want even if I could just easily get rid of it. I'm not trying to just punt it.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:35

You look you can defend yourself within reason, but most of the time people get hurt by Canada geese because they run, trip, and fall. And then now that you're on the ground, Canada goose is totally going to take advantage of the situation.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:46

That'd be me, dude. I just see a bunch of old golfers like trying to freaking fight a goose and fall down.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:52

Those videos are fun to watch. They are fun to watch. All right, guys.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:56

Anything else? No, I think there's a lot more than you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:02

Well, hopefully we've done a good enough channel where if we come to gigabytes, she'll come back to the game. Please keep in contact.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:07

I would love to like communicate and put plugs in and awesome. Thank you all for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:12

Yeah, Jessica, thank you very, very, very, very much for coming on the podcast, coming down to the studio. Fantastic time. I hope you come back and join us again.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:21

I'd love to. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:22

All right. Um, I have one last request, and we can get a picture in front of the DNR truck. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:27

Share it, share it.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:29

All right. Are you guys ready to get out of here? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:34

I told you I was long-winded.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:36

Keep on sounding, everybody. Thanks for listening. Thank you. Bye.