Ep. 88 - The People Behind the Path w/ Chris Bradley and the Hoosier Hikers Council

This week on Busted Knees and Pretty Trees, we sit down with Chris Bradley of the Hoosier Hikers Council to pull back the curtain on what it really takes to keep our trails alive. From boots-on-the-ground maintenance to protecting wild places for future generations, Chris gives us an inside look at the work most hikers never see.
We dig into trail stewardship, trail advocacy and proper trail architecture.  If you’ve ever wondered how that trail beneath your feet began, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.

Email: bustedpretty@gmail.com 

Follow us Bluesky: @bustedpretty.bsky.social

Follow us Instagram: @bustedkneesandprettytrees

Join us: bustedpretty.com

Listen: Spotify / Apple Podcasts / Amazon Music / iHeartRadio / YouTube

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:10

Hello. Welcome to Busted Knees and Pretty Trees. Thank you all for coming along. Fetch your gear and boots. We're hitting up a new trail today, and the guys and I are gonna need your help. We've come across a fellow saunterer from the Hoosier Hikers Council that has offered us guidance on this trip. Unfortunately, the trail is so new, it's just kind of an idea right now. We're going to have to design and build the trail first. Everyone should probably bring their PPE as well, just in case. And we're doing it for the love of the game and for the enjoyment of future hikers. And please sign this waiver. You know, while you're at it, check out our Busted Pretty socials and website. Our PR manager is killing it right now. If you could, give us a follow. Do it for him. Much appreciated. Please excuse the shaky start. Without naming names, our audio engineer sat me down and said, You're not the Kool-Aid man. Just use the front door. Are you even really ready for the big time, little kid? Anyway, back to the task at hand. Make sure you're full up on water and check your buddy to make sure they are too. Let's get to work. I am Travis White, and there, with a name fitting of a Greer, Bradley, Richard Greer. Hello. Son of Brian, the wise and podcast audio engineer. Had to have a little sit-down. I'm not trying to paint you in a bad light, Brad. You know that I respond to tough love.

SPEAKER_05 1:57

Now the man is the next guy.

SPEAKER_04 2:01

Now the man who was lifted to glory by the aroma of fine cheese, please welcome the current busted pretty Trail Tear Trivia Contest Challenge champion without an asterisk. The cheese wheel champ, Patrick Richardson. Hello, that's me. I am a champion.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

I wish you had that third wheel of cheese. I'm over, I'm over your house right now, and a wheel of cheese sounds just fine. Hey, that was my first win uh last week, and I'm feeling it. It was animal trivia. And uh I'm glad I'm glad I pulled through at the end there. That it makes my spirit just rise.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

Congratulations. Muchas gracias. And I wanted to mention that first because I knew we needed to get it out of the way so that we didn't interrupt uh our guests that we have today. And speaking of which, our guest guide is a board member of the Hoosier Hikers Council, an all-volunteer nonprofit dedicated to building, maintaining, and promoting quality natural trail systems throughout Indiana. He's also set boots on the elusive Isle Royale, which we've been trying to get to a couple of times. Everybody, please welcome Christopher Bradley. Yay! Hello, hello.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

Thank you for coming, Chris. Yeah, thank you very much. Your organization is is absolutely fascinating. When we were looking into you, just like like 1995 on till now, you joined late or early 2020s, as far as I understand it. Uh 2021. 2021. And just the amount of work, like as I'm looking through the list of trails that you guys have a hand in uh in the state of Indiana is is unbelievable. Uh I have so many questions that I want to get to. But as we discussed off-air, I think we want to start because one of the first emails that you sent us was you listened to the episode where we were planning out our 2026 and we wanted to go to Isle Royale. That is our I don't know if that's our plan anymore. I will admit, I think we're looking for Shannon Dole. But can you just can you enlighten you were so good in that email? Your campsites, where we should go. But can you give us some highlights from Isle Royale to kind of lick our chops a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Uh absolutely. I have been fortunate enough to go twice. Uh the first time was in uh 2015, and that was uh by myself, and then uh I went back again with my wife in uh 2019. Uh so I mean both times great experiences. So if you at all can get there, uh it's it's well worth that uh well worth that trek. Um one of the things that is pretty memorable about it is the fact that it is as remote uh as it is. It is, I think, the uh the second least visited national park uh only uh only outdone by gates of the Arctic. Yes. Um and it's so so one of the things to um be prepared for, but also enjoy is just that it it takes some extra effort to to get there. Yes. Um both times uh I took I I went up to uh Houghton, Michigan, which is in the the little peninsula that sticks up off of uh off of the upper peninsula.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

I now know Houghton trying to figure out how the hell to get to Isle Royale. I've become familiar with Houghton and many motels in the area.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

And it is uh just as a side note, it's home to Michigan Technological University, which is the alma mater of my brother. So he uh he's been four years up there, and uh it uh Houghton's a lovely place to visit in the summertime, and I think you can almost get lured in to be thinking, like, I think I might want to actually move here. And then he reminds me that I mean they average I think 280 inches of snow a year. Holy smokes. So, like when you're talking lake effect, I mean they're on that peninsula that sticks right out into the lake. So uh so if you ever are so moved uh to actually go live there, just make sure that you really like skiing and snowmobiling and ice fishing and ice climbing.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

My wife would be so on that. Uh I think I don't know if I can do the snow that much, like live-wise.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yeah, it's that's incredible. They have to uh you know scoop all the snow up with uh front loaders and dump it into the Houghton River because there's just no space to move it.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

That is too much, too much. Okay, so one of the questions I do have is you made a comment about how you got to uh Isle Royale, and one of you took it the seaplane, as far as I understand it. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Yeah, so so both times that I I went there, I took the um the National Park Service ferry from Houghton to Rock Harbor. You can also take ferries from the Minnesota side, which is much closer. I mean like it's a it's a shorter ferry ride, but that's then farther away for some people like us. Right. The ferry ride is something like four to six hours. I forget which it is.

SPEAKER_05 7:31

Yeah, it depends which the one out of Houghton, the very tip, I think, is three or four hours, and the one the national park one is like six hours. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

So that that's that's probably it. Yeah, it's probably the the six hours. Um, but then it it then it's I think that's a great trip because like then you get out on on Lake Superior and it is you're just uh reminded of the fact that it's just such a such a wrong thing to call it a lake, you know, right, right?

SPEAKER_05 8:05

I thought the same thing, like taking the seaplane seems cool, but you miss out on crossing Lake Superior on a boat.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Well, the reason the reason I took the ferry that first time is because I was by myself. If you hike the hike Isle Royal, you know, the the spine of it along the Greenstone Ridge, then you need to take another ferry back to to Rock Harbor, the beginning to get the ferry back to the mainland. So the first time I went, I did a uh a loop hike on the east side of the island so that I could start and finish like where that ferry came in. But then uh when I went with my wife, then we decided to to do the the through hike of the of the whole island and and then slurge such that when we got to the uh the south uh southwest end of the island at the place called Wendigo. Yeah, then then we took the uh the the seaplane.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

Dude, there's something about that that just screams adventure to me.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

Well, I've never done it before, so I thought it was really cool.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

That's what I'm saying. Nor have we. There is one little thing that I uh that I didn't exactly take into account in some of the original planning, is we we stayed in a hotel in in Houghton, right, right by the where the ferry is. So like that was super convenient, just like wake up and like 30 yards, and then we were at the at the ferry landing. And then the uh the seaplane landed basically on the opposite side of the river. So we so we got like we got like a bonus, uh I don't know, two miles of hiking back to the back to that hotel where we had left our stuff.

SPEAKER_04 9:41

It's like hiking with Brad. You get a couple bonus miles.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Yeah, always, always a couple bonus miles. But it was uh it was well worth it. That was a lot of fun. Oh man.

SPEAKER_05 9:50

I feel like the more people you have going on that trip is it exponentially gets harder for every person you add on.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:58

Because of the expenses and the timing and everything.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

It's it's when I when we started looking into that, it's the one of the least uh visited uh national parks. You definitely understand like it's you can't just take the family out in your in your SUV and come on out. We'll we're just gonna do a day drive out of this. No, you gotta really like it's almost takes more planning. Well, it does. It takes more planning to get to the island than it does uh anything else.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

Also, just we've already got our backpacks planned out, it's just trying to get to the day, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:32

Yeah, but really quick, Chris, you made a point, and now I'm kind of in my brain right now. We just did the Osabel River last year, and they we crossed through ponds, six ponds on that. Now, these ponds are about 10 miles in width, and they're most certainly not a pond, as far as I understand. Ponds, they would be lakes. And I'm curious now if Michigan is just a little high, like they're not quite understanding the naming scale of these bodies of water, because those should have been a lake, and the Great Lake should probably be seas, as far as I get it, and then up to the oceans and so on and so forth. I don't know why I just had that epiphany, but I'm gonna talk with somebody up there in that great state of Michigan. All right, we have a lot to get to today, tons of questions. We have Chris Bradley on the podcast from Who's Your Hikers Council? And uh, I just like look, let's let's get into this, y'all.

SPEAKER_04 11:32

Yeah, I'm learning about I'm excited to learn about uh what's going on. How we how do we develop these trails in Indiana? Right on. I think uh this is gonna be a big part of it. All right, let's take a break and we'll be right back, y'all. Yes, sir. All right, Chris. We're super happy to have you on the show. And uh we just want to toss to you uh the question that we toss to all of our guests because everything we do and we talk about is outdoor related. And uh we just want to know what keeps you going out there for whatever reason it might be, that core reason.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Uh I don't think I can say just one, so I'll I'll say I'll say several. I mean, yeah, uh one uh is definitely just the idea of beauty. Um that uh there's just we live in a remarkably beautiful place. You know, like I've seen pictures from you know, like Mars or Venus or whatever, you know, like and honestly, like you know, just like our world is beautiful, and I think the more that I spend time outside, you know, like the the more I get to uh see that and see that in different ways, and then that helps to uh helps for me to then just like look for it uh you know, j just in my everyday life. And then that that is then enriching just you know, uh during the uh pandemic when everything was uh was shutting down, um the the outdoors was really my lifeline. Um I'm uh I'm a high school teacher. And so uh it was uh it it was uh I I felt it was a big part of my responsibility during the pandemic to be solid, you know, like to do you know I I didn't want to say to the students that like everything was gonna be fine and I'm and that I'm in control, but I at least wanted to present uh like some possibility. But then I was finding, you know, like okay, that that would that would take a lot of energy. Um and so basically it was pretty much about every weekend uh that year. I just I just got out. I it was actually the year I I keep track of the trail mileage that I complete in a year, and that that uh 2020 was the most I I did uh 558 trail miles today.

SPEAKER_04 14:15

Oh no shit. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

I mean basically you know that's on the weekends, and like you can like do the math there, and it's like wow, that's a lot, but it was here, you know. Like I I just I just had to get out and this is something you had just gotten into because of the shutdown.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Um no, I've been doing it uh well beforehand, but uh you just put it in the overdrive, exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

And uh and so so that that was really just a a lifeline for me. And one of the things that I I had always like sort of appreciated was spring wildflowers, but kind of like in a distant, like, oh, that's nice, there's some color in the background. Yeah, and uh I was spending so much time out just like taking a lot of pictures and looking at wildflowers, and I ended up getting like really into it. So I take these and then I come home and try and identify them, and then you know, like learning the names and reading about them, and and I could do it because I was spending that much time with it, and it really just drew me in. Um and again, it was just this uh it's this just this remarkable profusion of beauty that is just um just like all around us. And so it has actually turned out now that has changed uh changed me so that like spring really like wildflower season is now like the thing that I really look forward to. Oh, that's awesome. You know, and and it's like you know, you get that kind of countdown, and it's like, oh, like look at that. We're getting into sort of like the third week of March, and you're gonna be able to start seeing start seeing the flowers come up, and um, so so that's great. And another thing, I don't know if any of you have done this, but uh a lot of the hiking I do is is by myself. Um and mo and mostly that's a good thing. I I'm not I'm not against hiking with other people, but it's just uh I mean most of the time it is just out uh on my own.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

And but I have I I understand that. I like to go out there by myself. I know Brad does. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

And what I have found is that it it's uh it it is very therapeutic. And so if you were to ever like come across like I I will I will just like spend a lot of time talking out loud, yeah. Um and I think partly it's that when you're speaking out loud, your thoughts are coming slower than they work in your head, and so I think just like I like I will, I mean, particularly boy, like during that pandemic, you know, it's like I would just like just start talking about the week and kind of like reviewing it and like and saying it out loud. And it was it's funny, like if you if you had had like a time recording and then you charted it out, I think what you would have found is like over time, it's just like the amount of talking goes down, and it's like after maybe sort of like an hour and a half or two hours, you know, then then it's then it's just kind of like out and then and then it's just like enjoying the hype more. And yeah, it's like a way of just I don't know, just I guess just kind of getting everything out, decompressing just like being in in nature um therapeutic and not not trying to sound it like in a like a new agey kind of way, but just like seriously, like just very helpful to just have time and space to be like you know, where where things are more quiet, you don't have the the notifications and devices beeping all the time and just kind of work it out.

SPEAKER_04 17:37

There's something special about those moments when you've been out there on the trail and there is just absolutely nothing to say.

SPEAKER_06 17:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:46

There's nothing to say. You just keep going.

SPEAKER_06 17:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:49

And it's I don't know like a your brain just kind of goes empty. You're just looking, nothing to talk about, you just go, and that's you're on automatic mode, and it's very meditative.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Uh many years ago, I uh I I made an attempt to take up Tai Chi and uh and the instructor referred to it as uh meditation in motion. Oh uh like that that really didn't last much more than uh about one summer, but uh but I feel like that's now mainly like what the hiking has just become. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of like after that initial part of uh of all the blah blah blah, you know, but then just kind of the longer you're out, then it really is just kind of like more yeah, meditation in motion. And I think for me, I don't know, like I I guess I would probably feel a little uncomfortable just like sitting and saying, like, okay, now I'm going to meditate. I I yeah, but but but I think that's essentially what I start doing, like just like the longer that I'm out, kind of like you were referring to. It's just you know, you I don't know, there's something about the walking that just starts to calm things down in internally, and yeah, I think there's there's just a drive, there's a like a goal to it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

It's it's I'm out here to do from this point to that point, or to see what I want to see in between this point and that point. And that's really the only metric that I have for today. So all thoughts be damned, or all cell phone be damned. This is what I'm out here doing. I think that that became a and I I think in the hiking backpacking world, I would imagine that even still, so so many years removed from COVID, um, there was a a mass influx of people finding that same euphoria out on a on a trail, be it national, state, or local parks. Uh, there's just I see so many people taking part in in these trails. Whenever I'm birding or doing whatever.

SPEAKER_05 19:52

Yeah, birding's still getting bigger and bigger.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

One of our number one hobby is birding right now.

SPEAKER_04 19:58

First guest that we had on had never really took hiking all that seriously. And then he was live was living in New York, and then uh once the shutdown happened, he decided I'm gonna through hike the Appalachian Trail. And he did it. Yeah, you know what?

SPEAKER_05 20:19

Let's just do the whole AP.

SPEAKER_04 20:21

It's fantastic. And it's really diving in head first.

SPEAKER_05 20:23

Yeah, absolutely. And he did it.

SPEAKER_03 20:26

Well, I'm gonna kick it off here with a question uh for Chris because I want to learn more about this Who's Your Hikers Council and kind of what it all is. So, for any of our listeners that don't know what Who's Your Hikers Council is or the HHC, could you explain a little bit about your organization and maybe the history of it? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Uh it is a it's an organization that has existed since 1995. So just uh just last year celebrated the 30th anniversary of it. Congratulations. Thank you. Um, so now now into year 31 and going strong. Yes. Um it's uh it's an all-volunteer organization. It did when it uh first started off, there was a uh I think there was one paid like uh president or I I forget the the exact term, but it but that that was relatively short-lived, and it is it is just really a volunteer organization. So there's a there's a core core group of people that that started it up, some of whom are are still with the group. So I mean it's we have we have some real long, uh very experienced people with us. That's awesome. Tenured OGs. Oh yes, yeah. Well, let's let's say well tenured, well seasoned. Well seasoned. That's awesome. And the organization has as its uh mission to uh build, maintain, and promote natural and sustainable trails in Indiana. So damn, what a great mission statement. So the trails that we deal with are not. um like uh like the ri the rail trail uh ones uh paved trails or or crushed uh limestone trails for uh for the purposes of of those like those are great for uh for biking for walking uh that that kind of stuff but we're like that's just not the like like that's done like you know five thousand feet of elevation change it'd be nice to have a flat stone trail so our group focuses on building natural surface uh yeah trails yeah it sounded more like it was like a backcountry kind of trail like like national forest or what's the main so uh the group has done most of its trail work in south central Indiana and that's largely because the group that actually formed the Hoosier Hikers Council all live in and around kind of like the Martinsville area Brown County area area yeah so uh so the so if you take a look at the the trails that the group has worked with it's uh a lot of it is in uh Brown County um Monroe Morgan Owen sort of like that that area there so in Morgan Monroe State Forest Yellowwood State Forest Brown County State Park um and then in various land conservancy uh places there are a few places that are like farther afield from there so like on on the east side of the state the Hoosher Hikers Council built the Edina Trace Trail which is a a nice let's say I would I would say 23 mile uh loop trail uh uh around the southern part of um Brook uh no um is it Brookville Reservoir you know where where Whitewater Memorial State Park is I do think so I think you're right yeah I believe you are right there's a there's a there's a uh a road on a causeway that goes basically through about the middle of it so the Dina Trace is then a loop around that southern part so that's on the east start side of the the uh the state on and then just tomorrow we're gonna be working on continuing work on a new trail just outside of Terre Haute Let's go yeah beautiful country too yeah there's a there's a land conservancy there called the uh uh Wabash Land Conservancy and so they have a property where they were wanting a a trail developed so so we're we're doing a a small one there for them. So what say that mission statement again because I I I got a kick out of that please sure uh I'm paraphrasing it because I don't have it memorized exactly but I think I got it pretty close that it's to to build uh maintain and promote natural sustainable trails in Indiana.

SPEAKER_03 24:54

Do you know and I I know we've we just said you've been there since 2021 and 1995 is when you were incorporated. Do you know if that mission statement was the original mission statement? Has that changed over time? As far as I know that's that's pretty much still that's that's it from from the start of that's that's an amazing concept for just coming in and saying this is our mission statement especially the maintain part that's uh we'll get more into that because I have a couple questions around there but I imagine building that and I'm I'm curious as to how that kind of all works uh in the very beginnings but the main the maintenance part of it I didn't expect that you guys would be also heading on the main the maintenance side is that like what can you kind of I guess we'll just start at the end and go backwards. Sure we can jump around where you want yeah can we can you just kind of go in so you have the trail built you open up the trail uh what is just start with how you open a trail okay fine sure okay so we'll start at the beginning and go to the end. Thanks Brad for getting me back on track.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Because I've always been curious when I'm walking a trail and I'm wondering it goes around like a beautiful huge oak tree how'd you choose to take me right by this beautiful oak tree and while you're answering that for Brad just try to do it in the context of from concept to kind of the the cutting of the ribbon if you will so yeah we'll we'll try and take this in stages the uh the Hoosier Hikers Council is just uh building the trail so it's it's not a land ownership organization so it's it's not really trying to uh acquire land so therefore we're really more a uh a service organization for landowners who want trails so so there are uh so there are then organizations that will that will then contact us so that it's it's almost always somebody's coming to us with the idea of like we we have this property and we'd like a trail we don't know how to do that you know like where where should we start so yeah so then is this private and public land? Yes um yes to both um and uh so usually there's already some kind of a concept of a trail you know like a a rough idea of like well I mean a genuine idea of like what land it will be on and then a rough idea of like you know maybe sort of where it'll be uh and a type of length to it then uh a few of our members will will meet with the landowners to just try and uh understand what they're wanting and and and what their what their general vision is and then we'll have some people go out and then walk the property with uh with the landowner or representative of it um to to see where where they're starting with it. Then holy crap uh then we have uh then we have a um I mean basically using topographical maps in conjunction with the land itself then uh we actually start to try and look at where where would be good places to put the trail and uh and it's really like what would be good places is kind of the the combination of two factors. I mean one is you know trying to make a trail that if there's any particular highlights of the property you know like if there's a little waterfall or like maybe a place that's be a a better uh overlook or like Brad you were saying like if there's a like an impressive tree or stand of trees you know there's an idea like okay let's try and make that uh have a trail that will hit that but then also really pay attention to the lay of the land because what we're in the end trying to build is a trail that ideally like the trail itself won't need a lot of maintenance that it really will be a a a trail that could have good longevity for it. So so we we try and pay a lot of attention to the contours so thinking about uh water and trying to um trying to minimize the idea of erosion so like just for instance we we try and absolutely avoid just putting a trail you know straight up uh a hillside in like just like you know sort of like 90 degree angle to those yeah contours because like then that's just going to become the conduit for for rain to just come down and then it's gonna get all eroded. So you know you're you're trying to work with the the the contours to try and make sure the water is just kind of like sloughing off to the side and not staying on it and so that it could be that's the most amazing thing I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

All the trails like hundreds of thousands of miles of trail hiking and I have pondered this like Brad said so many times when you're walking up a switchback and it's up 11,000 feet and you're just how in the hell did this go on? So like just hearing this concept of we there's there's a property owner that wants a trail let's go build like it's it's trail architecture.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

There's so much that goes into it just well the design like you want it to look cool you want it to be as easy as possible you know to make it so people can access it and you want to manage the water you want to manage you know all that other stuff.

SPEAKER_05 30:25

Trail closed for restoration's got to be like the worst like getting a bad grade from the health inspector or whatever if you're oh I didn't even think of that.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

Anyway keep going Chris I'm sorry for interrupting this is badass.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Anyway like that like what we what you would see is kind of like um a rough draft and then a final draft so like the the initial walking like we'll just walk the property and use a surveyor's tape to just tag you know like particular trees that are saying like okay the trail's gonna go like approximately here and then once that's laid out we make sure that the property owner actually gets the chance to walk that and and see like okay is is before we do anything more like is this is this what you'd really want to do. Did you enjoy this and then um and then in particular we have a very uh longstanding member of our organization whose name is Pete Banta and and he's really our I I would call him our our trail guru because then he he almost always leads then the group that will go out and then in like really fine detail lay out where the trail will be and then and then we're using uh like little surveyor flags like you've probably seen them you know um uh like eight eight inch tall and they just have like a little surveyor flag on it but then you can pin flag out maybe every 10 feet or so this is precisely where we want and if you've ever if you ever see Pete in action you know it'll be we'll we'll put it down and and like he's always like like looking and like looking from different angles to try to see you know where those contours are. And then they'll just like come and maybe shift some of those you know like six inches this way or you know like eight inches that way to really uh try and make that trail as good as it as as it can be. And then like once all those pin flags are set out then we're actually at the point where we can have people uh actually starting put putting uh tools into the ground to to then make the trail itself that sounds like so much fun to me to design a trail.

SPEAKER_03 32:27

Holy crap this is blowing my mind I I am in I am engaged right now. Yeah and then I imagine that when you start building the trail because I'm on your website right now and I'm seeing that you guys have 270 members strong a hundred active volunteers that log over 2000 hours every year. So is this now now that we've had the big shots mapping it out and flagging it and doing all that now we bring in the grunts and now it's like all right let's start plowing.

SPEAKER_04 32:57

Does this count towards the Indiana Master Naturalist program?

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Um not that I think because I because I did that program back in the early 2000s and I I didn't I didn't cross paths there so like like they they've lived in different in different pieces but I've been thinking about doing it I really want to do it. I'm trying to figure out it's it's really cool if if I can just take a little aside on the master gas list oh yeah it's uh you know you you do it and it's like um um just like drinking from a fire hose you get you just get like all this information on um you know on trees and flowers and and like one of the things I remember that was like really interesting was having some of the geologists come in and it was sort of like uh also then like talking about some of the fossil uh life that you can find evidence of in in Indiana I like that yeah some of the riverbed coral and stuff absolutely and and it was that some of that hands-on stuff and so we had different pieces and I was just like playing around with like one that was like this little sort of conical shell type thing and uh and I realized like as I was twisting it and I was holding it with my three fingers here it was actually like screwing in and it was just like I mean it sounds really dumb but it was like a it was like a brain wave of like oh yeah this is almost absolutely how somebody way back when first came up with the idea of a screw. That was like look that exists in nature and so much of everything we've done is inspired by nature absolutely and it and it was one of those things where you kind of look at a screw and you kind of think like who would ever sit around and think about doing it and but like you probably they probably found something like that and were we just like messing around with it and just thought hey look at that so it's I could hold my house together with that. Yeah I thought it was a great thing to do to just get a a nice primer on uh on on just a whole range of of issues.

SPEAKER_03 34:56

Travy quit waiting and just do it will you I know good lord well we can't do it together though apparently Travis said it's a pretty solo thing.

SPEAKER_04 35:04

It seems like you gotta like you're not gonna all be able to get the same classes and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

Yeah a lot of them you have to go to maybe we can sign up as a podcast. Hey so that'd be cool let's get back to this because I I I'm unbelievably curious because we got the concept we got the guy that's mapping it out now we got the grunts out there building the trail what does it take to get to the ribbon cutting where okay so a couple of things um the Hoosier hiker hikers council uh like most of the trail work happens on third Saturdays so the third Saturday of every month is a a trail work day that's then open to anyone so it's open to members it's also open just I mean if if you if you're able to find this on on the website or or on yeah you would let me show up like we will take we will take any comers so I mean like every every yeah I'd let Patrick's big ass show up so you can carry all that so every uh you know like pretty much every month we we have at least like some new faces that are there and like that's that's how I ended up uh you know coming because I had I had heard of this group for I don't know a couple of years and kept thinking like well I should I should maybe trick check that out maybe I should check it out and I finally did and partly that was in the spring of 2021 and like with the pandemic and finally saying like man I I I just like now now is the time.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah and uh so so we we get people out there and and so it's always a variable number of people I'd say like on average we usually have about 15 people a month.

SPEAKER_03 36:47

So it's still wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

There's usually a a like a core group of people that come and then there's a lot that just like maybe they come once and we never see them again or maybe they come like I don't know once every three or four months but it but it's really it's just open. So so on a day like that uh which is what will what I'll be doing tomorrow like I'll I'll go out and uh because it is the third Saturday um we then go out to the site and uh if you think about what we want to do with the trail um it's like imagine like most of it is built on on slope side because again like for for that idea of like trying to avoid water collecting on the trail we really avoid trying to put a trail like right on the top of a ridge because then it would then it would be more likely to just like capture the water and then be muddy and then come a trough and the same thing goes for the the like the like the bottom we generally don't put it right through a the bottom of a hollow so a lot of it is on on slope side so if you can imagine kind of like looking at it from the side you know if you've got a slope basically like what we're doing is always like cutting out right triangles. You know that would be cross sections so that you're trying to create um a level a level foot pad and so you're having to like cut that out of the out of the slope and uh so it it's not very hard to to get the concept across to people. So even when we have somebody who's new generally we just pair them up with somebody who's done this before and you know like 10 or 15 minutes of just like showing some people about oh what I mean then you've got the basics and then you then they're just like digging in right there with the with the rest of us. And there's there's a little bit of nuances that that you learn. So like for me I feel like I've I've gotten better with this but it was mainly by I always tried to be uh nearby this uh uh one name one man uh Terry who just like he he struck me as like he really looks like he knows what he's doing so I just kept watching watching him and I really just tried to say like oh I'm gonna I'm gonna use my shovel just like Terry's using it. And so you you learn some of those finer points uh along the way.

SPEAKER_03 38:55

So I have two questions then. Yeah one is do you guys ever because there's a you know there's a difficulty rating on every trail that you're gonna go on.

SPEAKER_05 39:05

Is there ever a moment where you're like dude I'm gonna fuck these people up I'm gonna make this trail I'm gonna make this eyes are going to be burning when the difficulty ratings have been plaguing Patty because he's like they say this is a difficult trail but they do it in five minutes.

SPEAKER_03 39:21

Those are all trails and all the reviews I feel like there's a bunch of show boats that are like dude I'm gonna run this thing in a day rating these trails then but I am curious like 85 since you are being asked to build it and you're running it through the property owner is there ever a property owner that's like no I want this thing to be rated like four or five I want people to hoof it out here.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

I want some real motherfuckers oh yeah do they give you like I want this much elevation change I don't I don't think that really has happened uh very much because I can just understand like who the who the property owners are that we're dealing with they're they're like uh we we've worked with uh I would say a little bit with the state parks that was mainly through Brown County okay um state park really uh with the DNR it's been more in the state forests so uh particularly Morgan Monroe and uh in Yellowwood um and uh but then even more the division of nature preserves all right so working with that and then in south central Indiana the Sycamore Land Trust is is works in that area is a property owner in that area and then the nature conservancy you know which is you know everywhere but then they've got you know they have their own chapters uh in there so usually those property owners are are are more interested in making the proper property accessible and yes and so like the the difficulty of the trail I think is largely just dictated by by the topography itself you know really like how just like how how is it or they're not bringing a boulder in laying that puppy right in the middle of a trail.

SPEAKER_05 40:58

You can't make the sand the prairies at Kankakee sands very challenging.

SPEAKER_03 41:02

Yeah we've uh we've had the privilege of talking to a couple people from uh the nature conservancy both matt herber and uh trevor edmondson and they have just the stuff that they they do in that organization worldwide is is fan fantastic all right so I so we got it to the ribbon cutting I'm there for that explain a little bit about this maintenance because that that is that is kind of where I wanted to get to to begin with. How how what what do you guys do it I would have assumed that you guys come in you build it and you do everything you can to make this the way the property owner wants the trail and then the maintenance is up for the state parks the local parks they maintain it from there on out.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Yes but it sounds like you and your volunteers you guys do that maintenance um I let's I I I need to put a little bit of uh a nuance on it please because because in a in a more official sense it really is more like what you were just what you were just describing that the organization will build the trail and then it's a trail on on that property owner's property. Right what I think uh I think probably the the better way to say what the Hoosier Hikers Council does is maybe that it facilitates maintenance. Oh so like like for those third Saturdays like when we're when we're getting a group of people in together we very rarely use that for for maintenance but what we have is a really extensive um adopt a trail program. Yes so like so that's quite a number of those volunteers like I I I forget I think you said 270 I forget the exact number. That's right yeah um there there are a fair number of those I've never met because like then I they I know the people on the board and I know the people who come to the the third Saturday work days and but then like some members never come to those and they're just a a trail adopter. And so uh so they'll go out I I think generally the idea is like once a month they'll go out and I guess like it depends on how long the trail is like you know walk a full trail or say like on the Tecumseh usually I think they they uh take um maybe a like a three or four mile section and then they're doing a lot of the uh identifying blowdowns if they've had chainsaw training you know like they they may go ahead and like clear that stuff themselves you know taking loppers and just cutting back the the brush that that grows back up um that that sort of thing and that that's a that's a lot of the the maintenance part. So the we we don't do we often don't do the maintenance as a group it really is like again like it's it's volunte it's volunteer uh part there that's amazing.

SPEAKER_05 43:57

We should adapt no kidding

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 44:02

You ever get any like uh emergency calls from uh county or state or municipal parks that say, hey, we had this tree down, we had something erosion, a tree down, can you come help us?

SPEAKER_01 44:16

Yes. So um I I mean the the short answer is yes, but I would say it also varies by the landowner. So for instance, um in uh Hoosier National Forest, uh the Dean Wilderness, the uh peninsula trail there, very popular trail. It's been closed for at least two years now. Uh there was a really big windstorm that came in, knocked a lot of trees down. Um, and I and I did ask uh Pete, like, do do we ever do we ever uh work with with them? And he said years ago they they tried to uh interface more with uh Hoosier National Forest, and by being, I think it was with the federal government, there was just a lot more red tape about it.

SPEAKER_04 45:06

And it would and there was gonna be a lot of hoops to come through, so it's just kind of like a okay, like we like we were we were just offering help, but I guess that just seems like one of those silly bureaucratic things, like you have volunteers that want to help and open this thing up, like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

So uh happened. Like so it it really depends on it, but uh you know, with uh with the big tornado that came through um McCormick's Creek uh state park. Jeez, was that five years ago now? Something like that.

SPEAKER_04 45:41

I mean, they're they're still that was one of the first state parks. Well the first one. Yeah, it was it was number one. What was the other one guys we just learned about?

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Turkey Run was supposed to be the first, yeah, and then uh and then a lumber company came and out like like all these people had had uh like gone around the community and they built up their money to to buy this land, and like just as they were doing that final bid, then a lumber company came in and and outbid them and was like, what the so like so that that put uh turkey run on hold, and so then McCormick's Creek became number one, and then then they raised some more money and were able to buy it from that lab that from that lumber company, and and then it became number two. Trivia question Do you know which one is number three? Oh shoot, it is not that's just because you can name it.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

Pokegan was a Eagle Creek, Eagle Creek. It was actually Shackamack. Shackamac, first of all, awesome name.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

Secondly, I've never heard of that. Well, it's uh it's the third state park of uh of Indiana. You'd have to go uh out out 70 uh beyond uh beyond Green wherever deposit Green I'm blanking now. So it's south of 70. So Shackamac.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

Damn, that's a sweet name.

SPEAKER_05 47:11

Hey, so Pokagan was fifth, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

Pokagan was fifth, so you're not that far off, Brad.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

I'm gonna be able to do that. Nice. I know because it had something to do with um FDR or uh well that that is more from the 1930s. Um but certainly uh I mean both the the state parks and the in the state forests in the in the Hoosier National Forest all got big big boosts from the depression because yeah that if you've ever been to South Central Indiana, like it's like a lot of that is not great farming land, and so people had farmed on on hillsides, and then you had a lot of erosion, and it just wasn't it it wasn't good good land for farming anymore. And so then the federal government and state governments uh started to buy that, and that that formed the basis of of those state forests.

SPEAKER_04 48:08

Are you uh familiar with uh Colonel Richard Lieber?

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Yeah, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_04 48:14

Yeah, we we just did a uh a short little story about him a couple episodes ago, actually. He's basically like the godfather of the uh Indiana State Park System. Absolutely. And uh a little bit of the national park system itself.

SPEAKER_03 48:30

That's awesome. That was a fun episode. Good job, Travy. Hey, so we talked to conservationists, we talked to people that have created arboretums, we've talked to all kinds of individuals that are not just helping in the nature side of Indiana, but also bridging the gap between nature and the communities that we live in. And it kind of always seems like there's two paths that we end up going down. And one of them is getting buy-in, advocacy for what that organization is doing. And then the other one is always the youth trying to engage our future generations and what's going on. But for right now, the advocacy side of this, uh, are you guys what I guess to add to that just a little bit more? Uh uh this is a patty question, by the way. So I just drone on forever. But uh what what I find, what we find is a lot of these people, scientists, conservationists, they want to spend more time in the field. And what they end up doing is spending more time writing journal entries or writing proposals or giving speeches, getting advocacy for what you guys are doing. So, can you do you do you guys deal with that in the Hoosier Hikers Council? Is there is there a level of I mean, being an all-volunteer organized non-for-profit, um, how much advocacy and talking with the communities do you have to do? Damn, that was a long. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_05 49:52

Yeah, that was like two completely separate questions.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Sorry, dude. I it's it the answer is probably pretty much going to be the the inverse of of the length of your question.

SPEAKER_03 50:05

I just spent all your time.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

The the short answer is no, we we really don't do uh a lot of advocacy, and it is not because the members ourselves are not interested in this. I mean, if you were to meet the people, it really should come as no surprise that the people who join a group like this are very interested in the outdoors and want to see things uh preserved. But um, but as a group, we decided long ago, like let's let's let's just not get into it very much because like then um because like we we want to be able to maintain good relations with with DNR, with uh with Hoosier National Forest, if we ever have that, with uh with other land organizations. And you know, like once you once you start to get into those weeds, you know, you you just never particularly know whose whose feathers you're going to ruffle. Yeah on the other hand.

SPEAKER_05 50:59

I think that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Yeah, that is a good idea. So again, it's it's not to say that I don't think that there should not be advocates for uh the outdoors. There certainly should be, but I think it's probably better to to have groups that are just like uh like have that be their mission. Right. Yeah, that's right. Our mission is gonna be building these trails and not necessarily try and combine them into a single organization. Yeah, that's that's that's a solid concept.

SPEAKER_04 51:26

That's definitely two different jobs. Yes, because you need to have uh for to build trails, that's hard work. You gotta have a workforce go out there and do that.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

I mean, for instance, one of the uh one of the students I had uh this year, her father is um I I forget his exact position now, but uh a major uh member of the Sierra Club for for Indiana. And and partly what he came in, like he's he's sort of like the director of campaigns or something like that. So he came in and talked with a group of our students basically about this advocacy and like how does this group do it? And uh and it was really interesting, but like then you find out like that like that just is what that organization needs to be. You know, it's like it's it's not like doing that and building trails. So it's like you know, if we were building trails and saying, like, oh well why don't we do some of that stuff? You know, you just kind of start to think about like, well, what does all of that mean? Um woof, you know, like you just like it's it's a completely it's a completely different uh animal.

SPEAKER_04 52:29

And you're always better if you just focus on that one thing you need to do instead of trying to be a multi-tool, especially in like a volunteer environment. Yeah, it's hard to get all that done.

SPEAKER_03 52:42

My dad used to say you can whole ass one thing or half ass a couple things. Which one do you want to do? And I I imagine that that's probably the best approach. Is your team is made for builders? This is what we're gonna do. Let let that conversations, let those emails go to somebody else, some guy that likes to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_04 52:59

That makes me that makes me feel good about the intro, about getting your boots on, and yeah, because we're out here to work. We're not here to saunter. So do you guys camera away, Brad.

SPEAKER_03 53:11

So that second part of the question, do you guys do any kind of uh I I I don't want to use the word advocacy again, but any reach out to younger generations to kind of show them the importance of of what you guys do? We got Chris on the busted knees and pretty trees, but I mean, how else can you reach out to the youth?

SPEAKER_01 53:33

Yeah, because we're so young.

SPEAKER_06 53:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

It definitely is something that uh that the board itself is is uh trying to develop some more ideas uh about this. Like one of the ways that we're I mean, we're we're trying to build more of a relationship with uh Bloomington Parks and Rec. Um because then that way that could give uh some sites pretty close to IU and maybe get uh some some more college students uh in with it because like then you have a lot more uh proximity. So that's so that that's really like in in early in early phases of of trying to do that. So I mean, again, I guess this stuff is like really built in in small steps. Oh, I get it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:21

So that's a great concept putting it by Bloomington. I mean, I imagine that there's an avenue for you guys to give credits uh for volunteerism, something along those lines. I run a fundraiser, and that's been one of the big things that uh people have asked me to do is take it to the university because they could get like a single credit hour for uh helping to manage what I what I do. And they have money. Well, it's not about the money, it's just about the time and the volunteer, and and in turn they get a credit hour going towards their degree. And it's almost like your iNaturalist question, Travis, like, well, if I come out and volunteer, will that help towards the certificate? Yeah, yeah. You know, it's just uh that's that's a that's I mean, that's a hell of a start.

SPEAKER_04 55:05

That's good because that's my that would be the best way for me as an individual is just dig out 90 degree angles on a hillside for 24 hours straight. Shoveling. Yeah, he does love shoveling.

SPEAKER_03 55:20

I like digging. I don't know if we can get a job for you. Yeah, yeah. You're talking to the right guy, Travis. He'll keep you entertained forever, man. That's great.

SPEAKER_05 55:32

Sometimes when I'm trying to get permits to do like rim-to-rim Grand Grand Canyon or something, and I think, how do I get less people to come out here?

SPEAKER_03 55:41

I imagine that you three, after that intro, you three are very much uh either in front or behind the bubble. Uh it's a backpacking term, Chris. They talk, they've made fun of me a couple times because they are both very much like if there's a bubble on trail, they do not want anything to do with it. Where Chris, I am I like so. I want to be around people because Chris, if you're out there experiencing a wildflower flower bloom and you're just by yourself, then you don't have anybody to talk jazz with.

SPEAKER_04 56:17

Patrick needs at least a hundred people to hug. I want to enjoy it.

SPEAKER_03 56:22

Like, come on, do you see this wildflower? Let's see if this is amazing, right? And then we all have this communal bond and what's going on. The struggle of a trailer, a beauty of a flower, an insect, or whatever it might be. That's my jazz.

SPEAKER_04 56:36

I'm okay with hugging just two dudes right there and then move on.

SPEAKER_03 56:43

Uh, all these years you've been doing this, Chris. Do you have like a special project, kind of a pet thing, the thing that you're most proud of? And uh and then why?

SPEAKER_01 56:53

Sure. Um for the time that I've been involved with the group, what I would point to most is a trail that we pretty recently completed uh at Green's Bluff. It's a nature conservancy uh land. It's a really nice piece of property. It's a um maybe as much as 1200 acres. Um and it's uh let's say four miles-ish south of McCormick's Creek State Park. And uh we close to the OG. Yeah. We've we built uh we had we had built a couple of smaller trails there, but then uh what we what we just recently completed was a uh a five-mile loop trail. And uh and that's a big project for us. That that took uh that took three years for us to wow, holy crap. Because if we have a group of, let's say, 15 volunteers on a third Saturday, um we will we will usually build, I would say like about two-tenths of a mile of trail, maybe a quarter mile of trail. And it depends a little bit on what the what the soil is like. So it it took us I don't know, it was something probably around 25 uh months of those of those trail work days, and then there's some some months we weren't able to do it. Um so it was spread out over about three years, and that was uh and so that that really felt like a big um like something to be proud of. And it's a beautiful trailer. Um there's uh there's uh some nice uh uh ephemeral waterfalls for the spring, nice wildflowers that show up in the spring. Oh man. Uh there's really some rolling topography goes down by raccoon creek, up into up and over some some hollows and ridges.

SPEAKER_04 58:38

And I'd find a lot of satisfaction out of building a few steps. You know, look real nice.

SPEAKER_05 58:45

That show is definitely going on my list, too.

SPEAKER_03 58:47

Yeah, I I in my in my brain right now, I'm like, okay, we're getting there this summer.

SPEAKER_05 58:51

Anytime you say loop trail, that has that I love a loop trail.

SPEAKER_03 58:55

Me too.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

And and it's uh so so it it it just took a lot of work uh with a lot of people and just and felt you know really good to bring that bring that out. And then uh in particular, then when we had a um uh an an opening ceremony for it, there were a number of people uh through the nature conservancy that came and we we took them on a hike around it and they were all like very complimentary of it. You know, so that that felt that felt good. Yeah, of approval. That's great.

SPEAKER_05 59:24

Say the name of the trail again one more time.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

Green's uh it's uh the Green's Bluff trail.

SPEAKER_03 59:29

Green's Bluff Bluff Trail. Brad, Market bro, we're going. I got it. Yeah, I got it.

SPEAKER_01 59:36

And it's damn near McCormick's Creek. Yeah, so south and east of Spencer.

SPEAKER_05 59:42

Oh man, the page on your website has a prairie warbler on the trail info, so you already got me on that now.

SPEAKER_03 59:50

Yep, Brad's there. Brad's there in a heartbeat. He'll be there in the spring migration, checking it out. All right, so these next few questions kind of end it uh until our rapid fire that we started doing with some guests. Um, but I'm just looking for more of your opinion. All three of us are from Indiana. Uh, they were born and raised here. I moved here a little bit later on in life, but lived here for the majority of my life. And I I think it's safe to say that, and I'm and I hope this doesn't come across rude or anything along those lines. Because I think it's safe to say that uh the hiking kind of here is not renowned, you know? People don't travel from out of state to come to Indiana to hike our trails as much as we travel out of state to go hike their tri trails. But as somebody that takes part in building trails and you find your interest in getting people outdoors and those sorts of things, in your opinion, what is unique about the hiking culture in Indiana that other states might not understand?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

Um let's and let's answer it in a couple of different ways. Like, first of all, I think we have some stealthy challenges in uh in in our state. Um the the challenges uh for trails in a place like uh New Hampshire or uh Colorado or Utah, like they're very obvious. It's like look at that, there's a big mountain. That's gonna take a lot of effort. Elevator. Um, and so I think I think that leads to a a misconception, not only for Indiana, but I would I would well imagine for uh you know Ohio, uh Illinois, right as well. Like, well, it's all just like flat, like there's nothing interesting there. And I would say at the risk of uh offending some people more from the northern part of the state, there is some truth to that. Uh absolutely up there. That's where we're from, Fort Wayne. In the in the Great North. But uh, but definitely, you know, like in in southern Indiana, and you get into the into the hollows in the in the hill country, I mean, there it's uh it's pretty challenging. I mean, for instance, if you take the knobstone trail, you know, the longest end-to-end trail that Indiana has, um like from from south to north or north to south, you're you're gonna do about 45 miles if you uh if you do it in a more direct line, and you're gonna do about 10,000 uh vertical feet of gain. And and yeah, that's insane. It's it is a lot, and now and it works out. I mean, the Appalachian Trail is much, much, much, much, much longer. So anybody who's listening to this, I am not I'm not saying that the knobstone trail is as hard as the Appalachian Trail, but in terms of average, that that amount of vertical footage gain per mile is about the same as the AT. So it's like you know, you go and do the knobstone, and it's like you're you're gonna do a lot of no, it isn't all like one sustained uphill, like you just get like oh so many you know, 200 to 250 foot climbs and go back down, and then you do that back up again. And and it that is like a real stealthy challenge. I think somebody cumulative. Oh, yeah. That that somebody from out of state might think, like, oh well, just like Indiana really has nothing to offer. And it's like, well, you know, uh, why don't why don't you come and come and do that and uh and and you'll you'll feel it, I'm sure. I'm not gonna lie, bring it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:19

You just bring it, fools. You just got me. That was uh I never heard of the knobstone trail.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

Oh yes, okay. Well, if you've never heard of it, then let me tell you. So uh yeah, so particularly for backpacking, you know, if you want to do any backpacking in Indiana, you really have to come south. And so the knobstone trail uh was was created in in 1980, so it's now about 45 years old, and goes from uh Deam Lake in the south up to um Delaney Park uh in the north. And it's it goes through Jackson State Forest and uh sorry, Clark State Forest and Jackson, Washington State Forest. And uh and it uh like end to end you would do end up doing about 45 miles. So like like when I've done that before, like I've I've done that say like three days, two nights out, and like that that's a good, you know, like that that's a good backpacking uh backpacking trail. And then and then uh north of that is the Tecumseh Trail, which I was just out I was telling you, I was just out on that with my with my son. That's a 44-mile trail uh stretching through Morgan Monroe State Forest and Yellowwood State Forest. And uh so those combined with uh various loop trails you can do in the Hoosier National Forest. There's I think it I know it surprised me because I I think I before I actually started looking for that information, I was just like thinking, well, if I'm gonna do backpacking, I gotta look somewhere other than Indiana. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And the and the answer is no, like you don't have to. Now, like if you want something in like that month-long challenge of something like the PCT or the AT, then obviously not here, but uh but I mean we've got great opportunities for one and two night trips, which actually work really well, you know, like for a for an extended weekend.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:14

Oh, yeah. No, I agree. I went to the Hoosier National Forest last summer for the first time. Yeah, and there is just so much you can go explore out there, it's just so vast, and that doesn't and that's butted up against Brown County and all that stuff. There's so much to do down there.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

Well, and it's interesting because like uh you know, I think partly it's it's by like we don't have necessarily the best branding in our state, but if you think if you if you pull out a map and you look and you've got there's more than corn in Indiana, are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:46

Their legacy has killed us.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:49

Uh you take Brown County State Park, which is 17,000 acres, Morgan Monroe State Forest, which is about 25,000, Yellowwood, which is about 25,000, and then the D Wilderness on the north end of uh Hoosier National Forest, which is about uh 25 or 30,000 uh acres. You've got you've got close to a hundred thousand acres of of uh of preserved land that is mostly contiguous.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:15

That's a pretty big chunk of land so many trees on the southern half of the of Indiana. Yeah, it's insane. And so like you know, that's that's really quickly.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:26

Well, I mean, that's like most national parks aren't that big. Like a lot of them aren't that big.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:31

Right. It's crazy. That is crazy. Thank you for that, Chris. You just gave me like the I mean, now I've got my next two years planned out where the trails are. Yeah, we got a couple trails in it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:43

Yeah, and just just let me know because I if if you want particular recommendations for for some backpacking, you know, like one in two night loops. Like I I have I have a number that I could uh could could throw past you. Yeah, hey, you got it.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:55

You got maybe we can get you out on one of those trails for a day or two.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:58

Extend from the Blood Root Trail at Salomone State Park. Just keep on walking.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:02

Just keep on walking. Hey, now that I got you on the topic of trails, here's another opinion question for you. Sure. Uh this might pin you against some people, I'm not sure. But uh what's uh what trail in Indiana deserves more attention? Like what I think you've kind of named four or five trails that to me didn't have any attention and now have all the attention. So maybe you're just gonna name the same trails you've named. But just curious, what what's your kind of creme de la creme?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:32

Well, um, oh, okay, that that's the that that's maybe a different one.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:36

So I can different questions.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:38

So maybe I'll just maybe I'll answer it in two ways. Uh I my the first thing I was gonna say, I actually hesitate to give an answer because then more people might go. But the uh you guys are all the same. You guys are all the same. The uh the state forests I think have a lot of great hiking opportunities, and I think people uh if they were thinking of hiking, they would tend to think more of either Hoosier National Forest or the or the state parks. Uh and I I love our state parks. Um I did I did a little project with our state parks that I could tell you about after after this answer, but like you know, our state parks are great, but generally uh June, July, and August, I just I don't go to them because just they are great parks, and so a lot of people go. And so like during those months, I really tend to gravitate more towards the state forests, which are then just like quieter, uh, there's not as many people there, and there's lots of great trails uh that are there. And so so I feel like like those are hidden gems, but of course, like the more you talk about hidden gems, then they're not so hidden anymore.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:43

But like state forests are and it they're the I think they're the easiest to hike and backpack in because they're the most like wide open. There's no rules, like you can camp anywhere. Uh some of them, yeah. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:55

Like there's some and to a degree, all Indiana trails are hidden gems.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:02

Sadly, I I think I think you do have something you do have something there. Uh yeah, but well, hidden gems. I didn't know that the the knobstone was a hidden gem to you three. Yeah, I've never heard of that. I'll go I'll go with that for uh for a hidden gem. But it's like if you if you like backpacking and one and one of uh I would say like honestly, like a pretty good challenge. Um I would I would do that um for the try and avoid doing it in like the really hot and humid weather because like with those with those continuous ups and downs, man, yeah, that's a that's a real workout.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:39

Yeah. One year I went morale mushroom hunting in southern Illinois and strip mines. Yeah, and that made me that was just like 30 feet straight up. Like I could barely get up it, straight down, straight up, and that was it's not not even natural topography.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:58

You're yeah you're climbing over man-made obstacles.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:02

And my friend that I was with who and it was uh kind of the almost maybe the same thing. It was the hardest place to go, so nobody got the morales there, so we got a ton. And my friend kept yelling at me because I would fall and smash all the morels in my backpack. Oh, I'd be so pissed.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:22

Stop following them. Yeah, I wasn't mad enough and myself. Give them to me. Give me those mushrooms.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:28

All right, guys. Sorry to break this up, but we are we are nearing the end of this. Uh Chris, it feels like we've only been talking for like 25 minutes, but it's been over an hour. And uh, I want to give you some of your time back on this Friday evening. But I do, before we get out of here, we do start, we we have started a little bit of a tradition with our guests where we finish it off with five just super quick, rapid fire questions. Um you can answer, you know, hopefully fast, but if you want to go more into it, then so be it.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:59

Yep. We usually have to cut Travis. We try.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:02

Yeah, because Travis has more more things he wants to say. But are you ready to go, Chris?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:06

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:07

All right, question number one favorite Indiana trail? Uh I'm gonna have two answers.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:13

Uh one is a day hike, one for uh backpacking. So I will say backpacking. Uh I gotta go with the knobstone. Done. Knobstone, yeah. And then for uh for a day hike, it's tough because I think I think I've got a podium and they all are out of our Indiana State Parks, but I think I would narrow it down to uh trail two up through Clifty Creek to uh big Clifty Falls in Clifty Falls State Park.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:40

I think I did that trail, and I have to tell you that was that was the first moment that I realized in Indiana there was different topography than what I I have thought there was. Yeah, that was an amazing trail. Thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:53

Spectacular to be able to just like go up through the creek bed through the through the canyon.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:58

It is beautiful. It's beautiful. All right, boots or trail runners.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:03

Oh, well, you can tell by looking at me. I'm old, so I go I go with boots. Honestly, honestly, I really I really probably ought to get on the the trail runner uh bandwagon, but I've just I've just always worn boots, so I yeah, that's that's what I can do.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:19

I understand. I can't help it. I have to wear boots. Yeah, I put boots on to do my laundry. Like I have to do any work. I have to put boots on.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:29

What does that make any sense?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:30

That can't be true, right? That's just my like it's my outfit that I put on to do work.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:37

Yeah, laundry. You said specifically laundry, Travis. You said you put boots on to do laundry. All right. All right, uh sunrise hike or sunset hike.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:49

I think I'm gonna go with sunset. I would I think I'd probably go with sunset. Yeah, I agree. Probably more practically. I think I would really like sunrise, but uh sometimes it's just it's just hard to get the motor running that early. Yeah, I'm trying to have a cup of coffee.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:06

I'm a slow morning guy. All right, one word to describe Indiana hiking.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:12

Surprising.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:13

Ooh, okay, great.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:15

I'll go with that.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:15

Do you want to explain that a little bit or not?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:17

I will because because again, I think particularly for people out of state. Um, I'm I I am a Midwestern guy born and bred. I I was born in southeast Michigan, and I've lived here in Indiana since uh 2000. So like I'm I'm Midwest through and through. So I really dislike the the whole idea about flyover country because it's like, hey, yeah there actually are things here. You know, yeah. It isn't just all this like flat nothingness, and particularly come to southern Indiana and you'll find just like surprisingly uh beautiful things. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:51

Absolutely. All right, last one. What's harder? Building trails or convincing people they matter?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:59

Uh, I think it's gotta be the second. I mean, obviously, like physical labor, it's the it's the building trails, but um just in I feel like we are in some ways like fighting the good fight, you know, that yeah, we're that we're swimming up against a stream that is led by uh our phones and other devices that are just like pulling people inwards and indoors. So just getting people to just be outside. I mean, just like oftentimes when I'm just like walking my dog around, like I hardly see any people because there's like everybody's inside. And so it's like if they're just like inside here, it's even harder to get them to be like outside, you know, in a in a park or a forest. And yeah, and so I think convincing people that it matters is harder. But you know, like the big thing I think is is if the weather is good, you know, then like almost every like if somebody says like they're not really outdoorsy and you just like take them to a beautiful spot, you know, then they say, like, wow, I really like this. Just like make sure that if it's a new person, you don't take them out like when it's raining or super cold and super windy, because like then they'll swear it off. Like that can be the second time, but like just like make sure the first time is is like nice and beautiful, and then and then I think they generally get hooked.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:20

Yeah, I took I took my son out uh uh for his first five-mile backpacking trip, yeah, and it was a torrential downpour. I think there was it was New River Gorge, it was thunderstorming the whole time. It was but he was I it was it's it actually actually is a little bit of the opposite where I think that as a kid, I mean, he was nine or ten at that point, and I think as a kid, that adventure of it raining and you know, he was stepping in the mud puddles and it was lightning, and or it wasn't lightning, that's not true. So nobody hate on me, but it was definitely thundering, which means it was probably lightning somewhere. It was it was just it like that sense of adventure that you feel. And even as an adult, there's you know, you're told not to touch that, you can't climb on that, you can't be a kid, you can't get dirty without taking a shower right after. So, even as an adult, you're entirely correct. You take him out there on a beautiful day, and that sense of childhood just comes flying way, it just smacks you right in the teeth, man. Yeah, you know, great answers, Chris. Thank you so much. We are happy to promote the HHC, the Who's Your Hikers Council? We're happy to promote you. It's been an absolute treat today to get you on this podcast and to talk to you about everything that you and your organization does.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:42

And learn about our own state and trails that we haven't he even heard of. Amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:47

This has been an amazing interview. I I I am on cloud nine. I'm gonna have like 10 more of these beers, probably two more, and then call it a night. We're gonna have to put Patty in the back of the truck tonight.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:58

When we were having a little break, we were saying maybe we don't go to Shenandoah this year and we do the knobstone trail and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:05

Yeah, I think you changed our minds that much. So I I think that's in our uh I think we're doing a kayak trip uh in a few weeks, uh the Pier Marquette up in Michigan. Okay, and then following, and then this fall, we're gonna probably do the knobstone if we don't do Shenandoah. So thank you very much for that. You're very mind, sir. Um, thank you very much for coming on the podcast. We've enjoyed every farting second of this. Guys, you have any more questions for Chris, or can we let him have his evening? Nope, I think we can let him have his evening.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:39

Okay, and uh, I want to thank everybody for listening. And uh Chris, thank you so much for coming on, and uh keep on sauntering, everybody. Yep, we'll see you next time. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:55

Thank you. Yeah, yeah.