Hector Bravo UNHINGED
Official Hector Bravo Podcast
Hector Bravo UNHINGED
Riley - 15 Years Behind Walls: A Correctional Officer's Story
Former California Correctional Officer Riley takes us on an unforgettable journey behind the walls of some of California's most infamous prisons. Inspired by financial prospects, Riley's career began in 2007 at the Stockton Academy, where he absorbed a blend of theoretical and hands-on insights from mentors like Donald Rossimo. His transition to San Quentin in 2008 exposed Riley to the harsh realities of the correctional environment, providing him with critical lessons and mentorship from seasoned officers like John Cowdery and Adam Williams. This episode uncovers the unexpected challenges and personal growth Riley experienced during his 15-year tenure.
As Riley recalls his transfer to CSP SAC around 2009 or 2010, he paints a vivid picture of a prison culture marked by violence and chaos. He shares harrowing stories of riots and stabbings, illustrating the intense dynamics and diminished consequences for inmate violence. Riley opens up about the toll this environment took on his personal life, including increased drinking and strained familial relationships. His insights reveal the erosion of mentorship and traditional practices in the correctional system, raising important questions about its future.
From chilling tales of staff assaults to the complexities of officer-inmate relationships, Riley's narrative provides a raw look into the life of a correctional officer. He discusses the controversial "Attaboy Chronicles," the challenges of maintaining respect and professionalism, and the impact of workplace affairs. The episode also touches on policy and procedural hurdles, officer resilience, and the debate over leadership qualifications in corrections. Tune in for an eye-opening exploration of the intense realities and intricate dynamics within the California Department of Corrections.
Hector Bravo Unhinged Chaos is now in session. Welcome back, Warriors, to another episode of Hector Bravo Unhinged. Today we have a special guest. I know you guys have been asking to hear from a former California Correctional Officer, so today we have Riley in the building. He did 15 years in the California Department of Correction as a correctional officer. What's up, dude? How's it going?
Speaker 2:man Good how about yourself.
Speaker 1:Man, Pretty good Can't complain Thanks for having me on. So, riley dude, first of all, thanks for coming. We had to reschedule the last time. What year did you join the department? Did you join the department? October 1st 2007 was day one of the.
Speaker 2:Academy, and which Academy was that? Galt or Stockton? Stockton, the old women's prison there in Stockton. Some of us lived in cells. Some of us got lucky and went around the corner to the youth authority and got put in a dorm over there.
Speaker 1:How did you come about to become a CO? Were your friends, family? Did you watch movies?
Speaker 2:Actually I found this out through a co-worker. I work for a beer company. Her brother is Adam Williams. He was a lieutenant at CMF. Last time I heard he was in the department. He had just started at San Quentin. I never heard of the department of corrections, never thought of it, and she was telling me all the money he was making because he's getting held over all the time. So I went home that day and got hopped on the internet, applied and started it from there. How long was your process? Mine took almost a year a year. Yeah, uh, a job I worked for kind of had problems submitting paperwork. So, because I had to retake, the psychological test was only good for a year.
Speaker 1:So I remember it was a little over a year yeah, mine was like two years the hiring freeze, and yeah, I went to stockton as well. So when you got there, what was your take on the drill sergeants, the instructors, the sergeant academy?
Speaker 2:My instructor was really cool, donald Rossimo, solid guy. He told us what was in the book but told us what really happens inside. He broke it down Very explanatory. I loved working with him. We stayed in contact for quite a while after I got in the department. He left the department I heard and we lost contact since, but he was just a real solid straight shooter. Some of the other sergeants there were a little you know, you could tell they couldn't be a sergeant on the line so they came here to teach but he wasn't one of them. The overall academy sergeant was Sergeant Hilliard, I think. Ex-marine carried himself as such very respectful manner, very solid dude. I ended up working with him at san quentin when he left the academy, came over there. Still loved working for him, very pro staff nice.
Speaker 1:what was the first institution you touched down as a seal? San quentin, san quentin, in january of 2008. January 2008. A different time back then in the department. Yes, I've seen it completely change Back then. Sam San Quentin man, what did you think when you hit the line and you saw all those tears? You saw all the inmates in blue because it was overcrowding at that time, wasn't?
Speaker 2:it. Yes, it was. We were completely overcrowded. The gym was a dorm setting. I want to say there's about 300 inmates down there, double bunked.
Speaker 2:It was a eye-opener for me. It really was. It was eye-opener. It was kind of historical being in such a historical building such as san quentin. But and then hearing stories about what had happened back in the day with george jackson and all yeah. So it was a real eye-opener. But I learned a lot there. I learned more there than I think I did at any of the other institutions. Who did you learn? From? A lot of the old guys. One of the officers that I ended up working with was John Cowdery in the adjustment center there at San Quentin. He kept telling me slow down, young buck, slow down, young buck, slow down, young buck, slow down, young buck, we'll get this done. We're going to do it. We'll get it done efficiently. We got this. I learned a lot from that guy. Another one was Aaron Brannon, who ended up going on to CSP SAC. Those were the two guys and another sergeant or he was an officer at the time Kenneth Blessing Learned a lot from those three guys.
Speaker 1:Now, when he was telling you to slow down, is that because you were motivated to fight crime and get in the mix?
Speaker 2:Exactly, I was motivated like, okay, looking for our first use of force, looking for dope, looking for the kites, looking for all that, absolutely, you know. Just I was fresh out of the academy, I think every new correctional officer goes through that phase, I agree.
Speaker 1:I completely agree on that. Until they either get schooled or they learn the hard way, exactly Either way, they're going to slow down.
Speaker 2:But I had John Cowdery had been there. He was there when they filled him with blood in and blood out. Yeah, I remember he was telling me they asked him to be an extra. He wasn't going to stay overtime for that stuff. Oh okay, but he was just an old school prison guard, big old guy, nicest guy. I owe a lot of my career and the way I carry myself then on to him and those other three individuals.
Speaker 1:How about sergeants back then, in that time from you being new Sergeants? How did they carry themselves? Did they interact with the COs? Did they hold meetings? Did they teach you guys?
Speaker 2:So when I first got there, my first sergeant was actually Adam Williams, whose sister had turned me on to the job. We were in the chow hall together. I learned, you know, we interacted well together. He kind of helped me out a lot, really, took me under his wing and kind of told me how to seat people in the chow hall and stuff like that. Damian Guthrie was another one. When I went over to the adjustment center that was there. That was very helpful, very respectful, cool guy was on cert, just one. It's a really solid dude, really solid dude. I loved working with him.
Speaker 2:We had a lieutenant I know I might be jumping that was last of a dying breed, donnie Coleman. I will remember this guy till the day I die. He was a lieutenant and lieutenants to wear class A's. His theory was I just got bars, I'm not wearing a class A, he wore a jumps. And Lieutenants to wear class A's. His theory was I just got bars, I'm not wearing a class, he wears jumpsuit. Yeah, adjustment center. Great Lieutenant to work for another one. Be honest with me. We'll, we'll take care of it, we'll write it, we'll get you squared away. Make sure you don't get caught up in any crap. Great Lieutenant. Back then Did Crap Great lieutenant.
Speaker 1:Back then did you look at lieutenants like gods also? All they did was walk around, drink coffee and just talk to themselves.
Speaker 2:Or were they their buddies? No, because Donnie Coleman wasn't one of those. Okay, he went to his meetings that he had to go to, but most of his time he was in the building interacting with his staff. Damn, that's good. Yeah, no, he was a great lieutenant, great lieutenant. I learned a lot from that guy.
Speaker 1:That's good dude. So with your introduction to corrections in 2008,. It's overcrowded, freaking inmates everywhere. He had the Mexican mafia members, nuestra familia members. Everybody was in the shoe. Did you encounter any incidents initially, whether dope fighting, stabbings, riots?
Speaker 2:Not. No, we didn't have a lot of that because it was still a reception center at the time. Oh, st Quentin, st Quentin was still a reception center. We had our main line. We had the Southerners on. I think it was Badger section. We had a few incidents in there, but I was in the child home when I first started and then I went from there straight over to the adjustment center and that's where we had the Ayala brothers. They were up in the Mexican mafia.
Speaker 1:What does it consist of working in the adjustment center?
Speaker 2:Is it like ad seg it's basically a death row shoe is the best way to put it. Death row shoe. Any other ad seg inmates that couldn't program in their ad seg unit came over there for us to deal with.
Speaker 1:Okay. So you worked around those inmates. Yes, you interacted with them. Yes, you self-ed them, you escorted them just showers yard, yep, conversed with them.
Speaker 2:To an extent On the job.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what I'm getting at is how do you feel now, knowing that all of them 100% of them are now on mainlines throughout the state of California? Just of them, 100 of them are now on main lines throughout the state of california just shocked me, shocked you, shocked me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, elaborate on that. So we had a southerner from pelican bay hit csp sack yard. He didn't. He could tell he was very uncomfortable because he'd been in the shoe for so long. He didn't know how to program on the yard as well. I was up, I'm, I'm up on the tower at CSP SAC. I'm covering the gym, though, and I hear a gunshot go off, because it was all the same hallway. I hear a gunshot go off. They were trying to kill that Southerner. I don't know all his details, I wasn't privileged to that because it's kind of up in the tower. I had been on the floor in a minute and they were trying to kill him To the point where they got down. The gunner ended up using lethal force to stop the assault, so they stabbed that inmate that came from.
Speaker 1:Pelican Bay yeah, they stabbed him. Good too. Let's go back to why it shocks you to know that those adjustments that are, inmate, death row inmates, are now on the main lines. Is it because their level of complexity, of sophistication, or what's in their c files? How dangerous they can be, their files?
Speaker 2:are well back in the day, we actually had files right and I remember pulling volumes upon volumes of one inmate's file and these guys are now walking the main line. You're like excuse my terminology like what the hell?
Speaker 1:yeah, you can cuss, bro, it's hector. Bravo man here, excuse my terminology, like what the hell? Yeah, you can cuss, bro, it's Hector.
Speaker 2:Bravo, go ahead. It's like what the fuck Right? These guys were in the shoe for a reason, they were in the adjustment center for a reason, and the department's just putting them on the yard because their families are following lawsuits.
Speaker 1:They're actually putting them on level two. Yards with no gun coverage are stocked in CHCF. That's where you got those. So, yeah, man, well, I wanted to pick your brain on that, right, because you actually work there. Yeah, okay, if you were a CO, knowing those individuals and you were on the main line, would you treat them a little more extra cautious or be more weary of those individuals?
Speaker 2:I would be more leery of them. Yes, I would also have my staff watch them, especially the towers. Hey, these guys, you know, watch them, watch who they interact with, watch how they program. Right, cause they were in there for a reason. Right, they were in the shoe for a reason, and they still found a way to communicate outside. Now we're just giving them a free line of communication to take care of whatever they need.
Speaker 1:So, after saying Quentin, did you transfer to another institution? Yes, I went to CSP SAC. What year did you touch down at CSP SAC?
Speaker 2:I want to say maybe 2009 or 2010.
Speaker 1:The department was pretty wild back then too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got my transfer just before the two years Lateral or hardship 2009 or 2010. The department was pretty wild back then too. Yeah, I got my transfer just before the two years Lateral or hardship transfer Lateral. I thought about the hardship, but I really didn't have a hardship.
Speaker 1:It was more of a At that time? Were they accepting laterals? Because I know trying to get you Donovan was impossible.
Speaker 2:Yes, csp SAC was understaffed at the time and they were accepting laterals. Csp SAC was one of like two or three institutions that you could transfer out of San Quentin to go to.
Speaker 1:Okay, and where did you touch down Level four yard Level four B yard GP 180.
Speaker 2:Gp 180. And I swear I spent most of my career there at CSP. Sac was on.
Speaker 1:B yard. What were some of the major differences you've seen going from San Quentin to CSP SAC B-yard?
Speaker 2:A full yard A full yard. When I worked at the adjustment center they were in walk-alone cages. We had small group yards, maybe 10 guys out there at a time. Now we're out. You know we have every building that would at least either top tier or lower tier. You have 300 inmates on the yard. You have blacks, whites, mexicans, others all out there at the same time. It was an eye-opener for me.
Speaker 1:You're a big dude, bro Swole, were you scared? No, were you conscious to the idea that you could get fucked up?
Speaker 2:Yes, very conscious. When I first I wasn't in the tower. Where I first got there, I was in a building Kind of went to building five and I kind of spent most of my career in and out of there, walking across the yard. Go home and the yard's out, I'm walking, you're always walking. You never know, right, you have no equipment on and you're walking across that yard Correct, full yard out. Oh yeah, and you're walking. You just never know when they're going to say, hey, there's a green light on staff, it doesn't matter if you're cool with Green Line staff, they're going to fucking do what they got to do, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was an eye-opener. I remember walking from Charlie Yard Sentinella across the yard with no equipment. You just grab a pen and hold a pen in your hand. Whatever. You got your lunch bag Something, yeah, anything there. Did you get exposed to a level of violence you had not seen at St Quentin? Yes, you had not seen at St Quentin. Yes, really quickly, can you elaborate on some of the incidents?
Speaker 2:First, stabbing I ever saw was there. Really, yeah. First riot I ever saw was at CSP SAC. First murder I ever saw was at CSP SAC. First major staff assault I ever saw was at CSP SAC. So yeah, a level of violence I had never seen before in my life.
Speaker 1:At that time, you were observing all this violence. Was it affecting your home life or your personal life at all?
Speaker 2:I didn't think of it at the time. Yeah, in hindsight. In hindsight, yes, it did. It did, it made I started drinking more. I don't want to say I became an alcoholic, but I was. I want to say I teetered on the verge of it. I wasn't being a great dad to my kids because I was still thinking about work and that was something I had to cut off later in my career. But I would be at home and hey text message. Hey, there was a riot on B-Yard today or so-and-so got killed on B-Yard today or whatever. And yeah, it did start to affect my home life Regrettably so Right, that's normal.
Speaker 1:So back then did you feel that the crime, the consequence, matched its penalty, Meaning if an inmate murdered another inmate or assaulted staff they would get locked down for a long period of time? Would you say that at that point in time, compared to how it is now, it made sense?
Speaker 2:Yes, it did when I first got there. We had the blacks and the whites go off, or the southerners and the blacks, I'm sorry, and we'd put three and three. They'd go off again. We'd lock them down again, lock them down again, lock them down again. Now, down again. Lock them down again, lock them down again. Now it's a whole different program. We can't lock down, lock them down again, so they just go back out there and do whatever they want to do. So who's really running the prisons? Are we running it or the inmates running it?
Speaker 1:It's wild.
Speaker 2:It's a free for all, right now it really is, and I feel bad for the new officers going in, I feel bad for the staff that are still there, especially on the main line, you know they're getting exposed to this on a daily basis.
Speaker 1:They're getting exposed to this on a daily basis. The level of violence, the lack of consequences for inmate behavior and also the um teachings, like you mentioned in the beginning of this interview how the old school guys would would school up the youngsters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that has gone to the wayside and I would say the academy Academy has a big part to play in that. There was word coming down when I was at Meal Creek, which is where I finished my career off, that they were telling the cadets there to not listen to the old staff because the way they do it is not the proper way.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you said that, because that's the second time I heard that. Yeah, I started getting wind of that and I'm like whoa, Whoa, okay, Because what I would tell the cadets when they come in I like the movie colors, I go watch the movie. You're going to be one of two characters. You're going to be Sean Penn it's going to be that gung-ho guy. Or you're going to be the Robert Duvall, which is going to be we'll let the little stuff go. You earn credit. I don't want to say respect, but you do build a rapport of respect from the inmates, Not the convicts. Let me say there's a better term the convicts, the inmates, are still the young guys that come in and out. The convicts are the ones that live there. They want a program. They don't want anybody interrupting their program. That's what I used to tell the cadets when they come in. You're going to be one of two. Watch that movie, Pick which one you want to be.
Speaker 1:That was my the way I taught them, it's pretty much the department phased out the people with common sense and phased out the people like us that actually stood for something Correct.
Speaker 2:They really did and I've seen it. It's they really did and I've seen it. It's continuing to happen. It's like right I was. What I started to see was they were starting to phase out a lot of the 3.0s that.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, man, I'm pretty sure there was some whispers in somebody's ears to get rid of these motherfuckers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're costing us way too much exactly I think that that's a that was a big motivating factor for the state is getting rid of those guys, right so let's go go back.
Speaker 1:You touched on a lot of things man Dealing with inmates, right. You touched about new COs coming in. You talked about the convicts wanting to do their time. During your time, in that beginning phase, could you tell the difference between, like, let's say, lifers? I know lifers. The way they carry themselves was way more fucking chill. I mean, they didn't tolerate the bullshit Right. Did you experience the?
Speaker 2:same thing. Yes, I did Once. I learned from my buddy Calgary hey, calm down. You start watching how you have your inmates and you have your convicts. Convicts know we have a job to do that. We're not there to fuck with them, we're there to do our job, they know, you know so they don't. You didn't get a lot of shit from them. If you did a cell search, as long as you left it respectful. They were cool, all right, where's my receipt? Cool, the inmates were the little punky-ass kids trying to make a name for themselves.
Speaker 1:Then you'd have the convicts trying to school them in some cases, but them acting, those inmates acting like that now does not compare to how they act now in 2024. It's fucking like like grown children, dude, and they do not listen to the ogs. No, they stopped listening to the ogs in like 2012, 2013.
Speaker 2:But when I was still at SAC we still had a lot of convicts there, right, and they could kind of school a lot of them. Yeah, especially with the Southern Mexicans we still had a lot of lifers still there. But yeah, it's completely different now.
Speaker 1:Man, so let's kick it up a few notches. Before we started talking, you were telling me about how you used lethal force. Yes, did you use it on more than one incident, or it was that one incident, one incident? Can you describe us what?
Speaker 2:happened. Yeah, I was up in the tower one day and I was actually a building five control booth officer and I used to make jokes with the gunner. I was a control booth officer but we also had a gunner up there, because that was what we call the hot area. We had the southern Mexican area, we had the white area right next to us and there was constant assaults going on there, usually checking their own people doing their own business, whatever. But I go, I look out the window, oh shit, fucking yard was going off and it's the Southerners on, the others, asians specifically, but we had a few Indians there and it's literally groups of 10 on one and it was just. It was. It was pandemonium out there.
Speaker 2:Honestly, you know, I had my, my floor officers trying to get out. I wouldn't let them out because they're really running out right into the fire. I would not let them out. I held that door. No, just wait. So ended up, it was on our basketball court. Ended up, it was on our basketball court. There was 10 southern mexicans on one asian. I remember I put a. I put one in the ground right outside the door. I remember seeing the with the mini 14 with the mini 14. Remember seeing the grass fly up. Remember taking another deep breath, lining up my sights, told myself you, if he kicks him one more time, I'm going to shoot him. Took a deep breath, fired, struck him in the lower back. He dropped, the whole yard dropped at that time.
Speaker 1:They didn't drop. When you did the warning, shot into the grass, they did.
Speaker 2:Yes, they did drop. They stayed down for a minute couple seconds and got right back up and hit going Absolutely. After I shot that one, the yard went down again. They did their own rescue circle. One of the staff members on the yard threw a stoke slitter out there. They put the inmate in there, slid him back. We got him off to our TTA. They got up again, started going.
Speaker 1:They got up again after their own rescue circle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they got up again, damn yeah, and they started going again. Were they going off on? Still the others, the?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they started going again. Were they going off on still the others, the others? By this time most of the others were on the ground. Were they pissed at the COs at that point in time? No, no, no, they were just fixated on the others.
Speaker 2:They were fixated on that. Yeah, fired another shot. I knew I hit the guy, but I remember seeing him peel off and go down behind our backstop. So CSB sack. Uh, so csb sack b yard. It's basically built into the side of a little hill so there's upper yard and then it drops down some steps into a lower yard. He ends up going down there when you said you knew you hit him.
Speaker 1:Did you watch his body?
Speaker 2:yeah, I watched his body, jerk yeah, I was aiming because he was aiming for his side. That's the only thing I had and I I found out later that day that I hit him the tricep. I wasn't couldn't confirm where I hit him at the time, because he was probably a good 100 yards away. Oh shit, dude, oh yeah Damn. So I found out later that day that everything was put away, that it hit him in the tricep Interesting dude.
Speaker 1:So after you shot the second inmate, did they get down again? They?
Speaker 2:got down again and, if I remember correctly, they got down again and I want, if I remember correctly, they stayed down after that and I remember that inmate talking to him. This was months later, maybe even a year later. He goes. Man, I thought you were just start killing all of us.
Speaker 1:The same one that you shot. Yeah, it's interesting how we can carry these conversations with individuals. We shot in prison man, but the kicker.
Speaker 2:For me he wasn't the kicker and and the only reason I talked to him, he got caught bringing dope into our visiting. Yeah, and at the time I was at S&E on V-Yard so I had to go interview him real quick, get his CDCR number. He remembered me. I didn't remember him. He was going to AdSync now because he had a dope interaction in visiting.
Speaker 2:It was a couple weeks later I went over to our C yard and the inmate that I shot in the back I got pulled out of the tower that day and I was feeding him and I remember his name and I gave him a tray and I could see the zipper from here to here and I'm like if you know the Mexican Mafia, you know that usually if you shoot one of theirs they want you Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And the fact that he was still at CSB SAC opened my eyes and that like a day or two later I went and put my transfer packet into Mill Creek. Really I'm done Because I would work latter part of my time there at CSB SAC. I was relieved in front of the towers I go between C and B and my thing was you know, here he is on C yard now, absolutely there's who knows if I'm going to be walked, if I get held over to a you know third watch spot, is he going to see me on the yard and want to come after me? Correct, you know, even though word came down from the bay super quick, literally by the end of that shift, isu already had intelligence saying that the shooting was. They were not after me for the shooting. They wanted the two guys that started the riot dead because it was not a called hit. And evidently the intelligence through ISU said because of that, because of those two acting out of pocket, they just lost two guys could have had two guys die.
Speaker 1:Now would they have only put a hit on you, a green light on you, or on all staff? Because I know Centinella Calipet. It kind of works a little different.
Speaker 2:It's the same but I was only concerned with me at that point in time.
Speaker 1:But there was no rumors or that A everybody. It was green light on staff.
Speaker 2:No, there was no rumors. Word came down from the Bay really quick. That staff was good. I don't know how true. That is my source. I believed pretty well he was. He was actually. He was a good, good cop. Yeah, he was one of the few isu guys that I could talk to. Hey, right, what's why he'd be honest with me. Right, right right. Because when I worked at uh back in the blood, when I worked at san quentin, the isu there would never share stuff with the line staff, correct, never. This particular individual at csb sac and a lot of the guys at csb sac that end up going to ISU would openly say, hey, this was good or no good or cool. They were very open about that. So I very much appreciated that and made me feel a lot better. Man, so I, when you still had my hair on the back of my neck standing up because you never know.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, bro, yeah, you're not gonna take somebody's word for it that, hey, you're all right. Yeah, I'll decide that for myself. Right, did you do you remember that part of that investigation for the shooting, the sergeant going up there reading your, your public safety statement, the defeat, and get involved?
Speaker 2:Defeat got involved. Yes, so I remember ISU coming up and they're like here, give me everything. I go, well, hold on, let me check, let me count my rounds. I wanted to put a loss on my report. Nobody told me this. I'm just trying to think well, let me verify everything. So I counted all the rounds. Oh, you don't need to do that. I go, no, I'm counting all the rounds out. Here's the magazine, there's, you know, seven rounds on the magazine. This magazine's full hadn't been touched. You know, turn all my weapons in. Then they took me into the ISU office. So at kind of jumping around here sorry, I had found out there was a way to call out from within a building by bouncing your phone call from CSP sack over to Folsom and again the outside line I called my union rep, adam Corrales. I go, hey, it was his day off. I go, hey, this just happened. This is what I just did, he's like, okay, I'll take care of it.
Speaker 2:By the time I got pulled down out of the tower because he had to take us out of the back. We had to go around the whole facility to go to ISU. The CCPI attorney was there. He stood there in front of my desk while I wrote my report. Nobody could talk to me, nobody could bother me. Then I went in and did the public safety statement with Lieutenant Mayhew I still remember him, great lieutenant and then read my rights I'm like that's when my butthole puckered. I'm like what the fuck? And it was a criminal investigation from then on. Oh, it was. Yeah, damn dude. So evidently, anytime you use legal force, it becomes a criminal investigation as well as a department investigation.
Speaker 1:That's fucking sketchy dude, not sketchy, I mean, it's part of the business.
Speaker 2:But god damn bro, I knew what I did was with was acting with them, right, you know, doing the my duties. So I didn't think of that. But there's still that thought that, fuck, I could end up in prison over this, really, if they deemed it negligent. Yeah, you know, it took about six months for the department to clear and about nine months for the criminal to clear. Damn, I still remember my lieutenant calling me.
Speaker 2:I was on vacation at this time. Calls me, and I'm up on lake shasta, no phone service. I just see a voicemail come through. Call me. Fuck, I was like day two of my five-day vacation. I'm like, fuck, as soon as I get service, what's up? He goes how you doing. All right, you're clear, you couldn't just leave. On the fucking voicemail he was just like he was a cool lieutenant. Yeah, me and him had a great working rapport, great, you know, he was kind of fucking with me a little bit, but he I he didn't think I would take it that way, but I was cleared and then about three months later I was clearedally so while you were under that investigation.
Speaker 1:You can't promote, you can't transfer. No, Did you have ambitions to do any of that? Or were you just hoping to get that shit? At the time, I wasn't looking to transfer.
Speaker 2:I was happy there at CSP SAC I was looking to promote. I was on the sergeant's list to do that, but I was thankful I couldn't be put in a gun post, because then I couldn't be held to a transport. You couldn't be in a gun post. I could not be in a gun post. I was redirected for till the criminal investigation was done wow, which. This is where csp sack was good. I don't know who did it. I got some really good jobs. I wasn't put on, you know, like in our uh, well, that's cool. Yeah, I wasn't put in crap buildings. I was actually given some really good. They really took care of me on that one. So I have no complaints with that at all. They showed you some love. Yeah, they did, they really did. The captain we had over there me and her didn't always get along, but I think she might have had something to do with that. I can't remember her name.
Speaker 1:I can remember her build, but Now, during that time frame, was there still incidents cracking off at CSP SAC? Hey guys, consider becoming a patron, where you will get first exclusive dibs on the video before it airs to the public and you'll get to ask the guest special questions that you have in mind. So that's also another way to support the channel. Thank you, guys, appreciate all of you. Keep pushing forward. Make sure you hit that link in the description below yes, riots, staff assaults, stabbings, murders.
Speaker 2:B-Yard was an active yard. It was a very active yard. I remember coming in the next day and it was still a crime scene. They still had the markers from where I shot and that was kind of a….
Speaker 1:So you actually came in the next day. Yes, Showed up to work like just regular work day. Yep, what were you assigned that day? On the floor or in the gun? We were on lockdown, so they just kept us down. Man, it was a live winner.
Speaker 2:Any other notable incidents at CSP, sac? Yes, one day I was working the S&E position. The S&E wasn't actually a search and escort. You kind of did all the bed moves for the entire yard. 154s yes, those old 154s you do all the bed moves. You go pull guys out of R&R. You kind of helped out wherever needed. Cool, I didn't mind that we had a staff assault in building one. We had a staff assault in building one. I don't remember his first name, but his last name was Vincer, southern Hispanic. Came out broken TV glass. We were wandering him and started going off on him, stabbed him in the neck, right below the ear, punctured in there. A nurse stuck her finger in there and basically kept him alive, damn near, killed him Since he retired as a result of that. Great officer, great guy to work with. But that was eye-opener I read that report.
Speaker 1:I read that report. He made contrarious or some shit like that.
Speaker 2:It made a yeah, a little southerner yeah, I remember when I responded over there he was still fucking talking shit while he's on the ground, was he? Yes, and I remember I had to carry the camera on him to protect. To protect him, I guess, while we walked him from, while he, while they processed them in our we called it the breezeway, which is where we had our cages, while they were processing ice, egg and shoe inmates. Then we had to walk him over to our standalone, which is in the back, and I had to carry a camera on this guy the whole time.
Speaker 1:Just you know for his protection.
Speaker 2:No, funny business right, so that was. That was the first attempted murder on staff I saw of two that was the first one great officer too great officer.
Speaker 1:Like dude, I got the fucking name of the inmate on the tip of my tongue. I can't, fucking dude. Yeah, I read that. I read that whole report. I saw the fucking web. I saw the pictures of that incident. So when you get there, there's a shitload of blood. Your partner's flashed fuck, stabbed, the fuck up they're rushing him into our tta. What was going through your mind, dude, when you're seeing a fellow brother in green?
Speaker 2:all fucked up what the fuck just happened. Now your mind starts going a million miles a minute. Is there a green light on us now? What the hell hell's going on? Because Southerners need to be okay to fucking attack staff. So what was this? Was this a called hit? Was this a one-off? What is it? You've got all these thoughts going through your head On top of thinking is my partner okay, we walk in there? We're brothers, we want to make sure we walk out of there in one piece. And you're trying, you're wondering, we're trying to get updates, or is he okay then? Okay, he's okay, he's gonna live. Was he okay or he's pretty fucked up? He was pretty fucked up, but we got word back as soon as they got into the hospital. They stitched him up, cleaned him up, got him all taken care of and uh. So we got word back fairly quickly that he was okay. Then comes up fuck, is this? Is this a green line of staff? What's going on here?
Speaker 1:yeah. So talk to me about the mindset that you had during that time frame. I mean, shot a couple dudes with the mini 14 southerners are going off on the uh, other southerners going off on the blacks, southerners going off on fucking staff. What was your mindset? Hey, I have to be physically I have to come into work prepared to engage in a confrontation.
Speaker 2:Yes, you have to. That's why I took up powerlifting. I figured I always wanted to be stronger than the next guy. Yeah, you may get a couple punches on me, but if I get ahold of you one time, that's all it's going to take. So I started. The powerlifting continued that you were always awake, always had to pay attention to your surroundings. You had to pay attention to your surroundings, you had to be vigilant and you know, eyes wide open, you couldn't be distracted by a cell phone or other shit going on or what other some of the young guys were doing was chasing the nurses or whatever. You had to pay attention, you know, because at any point in time, this is an active yard. Right, this isn't, you know, a daycare facility, it's an active yard at any point in time. She can go haywire what?
Speaker 1:It's an active yard At any point in time she can go haywire. What advice do you have to newer correctional officers in 2024 that have joined the job? I have no idea why they joined it, but they clearly do not understand the environment that they are in.
Speaker 2:One thing plaguing this newer generation is they don't have the social skills that they need to be successful on a level four yard. I think what made me successful was starting at San Quentin, seeding 300 guys in a chow hall and having to tell one guy why he has to sit there. He can't sit there and then start learning how to utilize. I'm going to hold these guys up. You're not going to eat until this guy moves over. Now you've got other races looking at him. Hey bro, you need to kick rocks, move over.
Speaker 2:You don't develop that unless you've worked in a chow hall like that or you're face-to-face with inmates on a regular basis. I've got a tier with 100 inmates on the tier and I've got to walk through them. You don't have that anymore. You just push a button, they all come out and fall out through the yard door. Now these, you just push a button, they all come out and file out through the yard door. Now you know these new guys do not have the social skills they needed. I started seeing that towards the end of my career. You know, I told you I left out of Mule Creek and I remember this one specific incident A guy calls an officer, calls this guy a fucking chomo.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and I've seen that shit too.
Speaker 2:man, I go, hey man don't call him that, I go. I understand where you're coming from, but you can't do that. Well, he's a fucking chomo, I go. Hey, man, go to your building, read his file. He's an ex-AB member. He just gave up the game, bro, I go. You think he'd think twice about putting a piece of metal in your neck. He's doing life. He came here to get out of the game. You need to know your inmates, and that's the wrong one to be calling Shomo. They don't have those social skills that you developed back then. You don't have the older OG guards to kind of take them under their wing now, because then these new guys oh well, he's wearing white socks Go tell him you.
Speaker 1:Right, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Or he brought a newspaper in. That was what I got told on for Rats?
Speaker 1:Yeah, For stupid shit During this current climate. I mean, I don't know how much you keep on on current CDCR to kind of do this for a living now, but do you foresee a correctional officer getting killed in this current climate? I would be shocked, shocked.
Speaker 2:There's been some close calls. Our physical standards in the department were crap when I was in there. You know I don't mean to touch base and make fun of anybody that's handicapped.
Speaker 2:But when you have a person that can't walk in a regular parking lot and needs handicapped parking and they're in your building, what is that person going to do to help me? If I'm getting my ass kicked on the tier? Nothing. They're going to do to help me. If I'm getting my ass kicked on the tier Nothing. They're going to be able to make the call, but I'm assed out. I'm on my own until my partners get there from the joining buildings.
Speaker 1:I want you to elaborate the feeling of the feeling of being alone in a prison with other partners, cause I know exactly what you're talking about. Man, it's like man. No way, no. What you're talking about. Man, it's like man. No way no. Motherfucker, that was gonna help me fucking fight these dudes. Right, you can tell? Yeah, well, elaborate on that feeling. How do they make you fucking feel? Maybe nervous?
Speaker 2:I'm. I would just pray to god that we didn't have anything kick off that day. Exactly, dude, my only saving grace was I had a. I was respectful to all the events. Yeah, I don't care what their crime was. We're not there to punish them. They're there being punished. So I'd I would be respectful. They needed something If it was within reason or something they had coming. Cool, I'm not going to go out of my way for them, correct, but I'm going to give them their toilet paper or their shoes that they have or whatever they got. Okay. So it made me nervous. I'm like, if shit pops off in here, if they attack me, I'm on an island until the next building gets here, and half the time the people are always well. Is that a fake alarm? So they're waiting to hear the radio call instead of responding?
Speaker 1:that is fuck.
Speaker 2:That's a bad I can push my alarm and I could be there for a good two, three minutes on my own right now I like how you said um, not give them anything more, just give them what they have coming.
Speaker 1:Can you elaborate on what it's like to give somebody? Give an inmate what they have coming, versus doing too much? Maybe an officer running around passing things from cell to cell, an ad sig? You elaborate on things that a CO doesn't necessarily have to do.
Speaker 2:So I was never one of those that would pass a kite, for example. When I started at St Quentin they would try to. You know, my rule was if you do what you got to do, do your fishing. If I walk across a tier, reel them in, or I'm taking them. They all knew that I'm not passing stuff for you. I'm not there to pass stuff for you. You guys have to find your own way. But if it was toilet paper day, I'm giving you your issue of toilet paper. If it was time to exchange shoes, I'll give you your shoes. Or exchange razors, I'll give you what you got. I'm not running around for you. I don't care if it's the next year, sell over, I'm not passing anything. I'm not going to fucking do it. That's not what I'm here for. Because my personal feeling was you start getting into that realm, you start getting on the verge of over-familiarity.
Speaker 1:What about attaboy Kronos? Good boy, good boy Kronos. I never wrote one of those.
Speaker 2:Never wrote one. I know there was one written at one point in time at meal Creek. I think there was one one at San Quentin too. I could be wrong on that, though, but he had helped an officer that was had got assaulted. Yeah, I've heard that before and okay, cool, I can understand that. Right, respectful, that tells me you looked out for one of us. I'm not going to fucking write it, that's not going to fucking ride it, that's not going to fucking happen.
Speaker 1:I got to do a whole episode on Attaboy.
Speaker 2:Chronicles bro, that's not going to fucking happen. I've only heard of it like twice in my career, but they were starting to become a common thing at Mule Creek when I left. Oh, 100%, bro, that's not going to happen 100% Like I saw that one from the lieutenant about the Menendez brothers. I'm like.
Speaker 1:So that's the lieutenant that wrote me up for the captain bar. That's the same fucking clown dude. Same dude and the Menendez brothers.
Speaker 2:Bro, we had one of them at meal Creek when I was there. I can't remember it was a bald one Right and him and the the warden there at the time, uh not the one that was stealing snowboards was yes.
Speaker 2:I'm drawing a blank. Liz Araga snowboards was yes, I'm drawing a blank with lizara. Yeah, they had a direct line of communication. No, we had a riot on our charlie yard at meal creek. Look, we'll call it a melee. It wasn't a riot, it was a melee, so it was. We had a code a, code two over there, so we shut down all program on b or beat. Was it b yard? No, yeah, b yard.
Speaker 2:And he was in there taking christmas pictures and told me man, wrap it up, you guys can go back. Well, I got the warden. He said I could be here, I'm telling you, man. And he started to flex up on me and me being a smartass, my partner was off to the side, standing right where the camera is. I go hey, man, it's just me and you back here. Either you can go back to your cell voluntarily a fucking gurney, it's gonna be your fucking choice. Though absolutely the warden's gonna hear about this. I go, okay, cook, I go. Yeah, make sure you spell it right too. Of course, I never heard anything about it. Yeah, but he had direct line communication with liz roger.
Speaker 1:So weird man. I don't understand how some of those guys got it like that. It's so fucking weird, bro, because they wouldn't do shit for a co man.
Speaker 2:No, let a motherfucker burn exactly and we had they say it was right. It was actually a melee. It was like six on six, small by my, my terminology, my ideology, but big by meal creek standards. But yeah, he was, he was a little. He was for lack of better term, he's a little punk over there. He thought he ran that yard. Yeah but, attaboy carlos, I would never write one of those. Are you fucking kidding me?
Speaker 1:You touched on something else prior to given what they have coming. So, at CSP, sac, how long were you there? For how many years? About seven years, seven years. Yeah, did you enjoy the time there? Did you learn a lot? Was it active?
Speaker 2:Yes, it was the time there you learned a lot with an active yes, it was active yard. I learned a lot. Uh, I had on v yard we had. We had a very tight-knit group for most of the time I was there, up until about right about the time I left. You know we had a real tight-knit group until the new captain came in and kind of changed things up and then that yard went to shit.
Speaker 1:So you had with bravo, good camaraderie, correct, okay, and at the time there was a different captain when that good camaraderie was happening.
Speaker 2:I learned we had one officer there, rick Mendoza. He was in ISU for a minute, then he came back. He gave up ISU, came back to the line. Great officer had the respect of just about every inmate on that yard. He in that yard. He could probably walk out in the middle of the riot, pull somebody off and nobody would fucking touch him. He was just very knowledgeable, very respectful to all staff that came in. He gave some of these young guys the benefit of the doubt way too many times more than I thought he should have. But he was just a good officer. I tried, as my career went on and I worked with him, I tried to model myself after him in a lot of ways just the way he carried himself and the way he was.
Speaker 1:So what happened with this new captain that came in? Were that managerial job changes that the wardens usually shuffle around?
Speaker 2:I don't know what prompted it, but we had a new captain come on and I don't use race card very often. I don't like that. I think that's a cop-out a lot of times, right, but she brought in, she wanted, wanted, I don't know. She was black, she was a black captain and she brought in black sergeants and put them in management positions. Then she was trying to bring in more black staff onto b yard. B yard was a good mixture of staff. There was no, it was just all your good staff members were known to be on b yard. Yeah, and she completely changed the whole complexity of that whole yard, the whole complexity of that whole yard, the whole dynamics of that whole the staff and everything, to the point where one of the sergeants that she brought over ended up leaving. He went transferred over to Old Folsom. He's like I want no part of this anymore. Exactly.
Speaker 1:And I told you shared that with me before the film started. The camera started rolling, but I'm like, yeah, dude, we'll talk about it, because that happens at every prison, right. That happens at every single prison right, not just with race. But you'll get an individual that will bring their people and just wipe out a whole fucking yard next.
Speaker 2:You know that yard ain't running so hot the previous captain was, so she wasn't really, I won't say pro staff, but she wasn't anti-staff, she was. She would do her job. When we had a riot one of the riots I don't remember which riot it was Ole Folsom would come over to offer support. She was like nope, my staff has it. Leave them outside, because they would line up right outside our main control and be ready to come in. She's like nope, my staff has it. I remember hearing that. I'm like cool, she has faith in us. Cool, yeah, but this new captain, she came in and created a whole mess in there and it was just no, nobody wanted to work there. We there was even one female officer that followed filed on her for making it a hostile work environment.
Speaker 1:Did officers bid off of that yard?
Speaker 2:Yes, every officer that was worth their money or that was a legit officer, got off that yard real quick.
Speaker 1:And that's the. We see that often in the prison system, right, like a fucking manager horrible-ass manager will come and just fucking, really just destroy a yard and everybody's jumping shit, man, and she did. She finally destroyed that yard and let me guess they fucking promoted her to associate warden at some point in time. I don't know, because I left, I wouldn't doubt it. She's in fucking headquarters right now, probably, so that what we've been discussing so far is the good old days, right, uh, good, things made sense. It was violent, but things made sense. Um, at what point did you start seeing the fucking shift and the and the corruption and the toxicity?
Speaker 2:I started seeing it at Mule Creek when I transferred there. I spent about seven years at CSPSAC. Decided to transfer to Mule Creek. It was the same mileage to my house but one was several stoplights and one was one stop sign, so it was like a 20-minute commute versus a 45-minute commute. So I transferred there and I always had heard when I was in the academy and going through that Mill Creek was a retirement spot.
Speaker 2:So I was looking to go get away from all of it, kind of lay low, went there and that's where I started seeing a lot of this stuff happen. Saw little bits of it here and there, like at SAC when the new manager came in and you know you'd see little crooked stuff. Like girl comes from the academy, she's cute, got big boobs, so you got weekends and holidays off now and you're an sne after you know being on the line for two weeks or you have a last name that's known within the department and those of us, those of us that know certain names, will know I'm referring to. She came in straight out of the academy, got weekends and holidays off over at sack because her name was connected. But uh, I started seeing it really hit when I transferred to mill creek.
Speaker 1:Have you ever seen a cdcr affair be successful? No, me neither. No, no. It always is up in a shit show and the cops get called fights. Oh, it's fucking restraining orders.
Speaker 2:No, they're never successful. Oh man, Some people take the being a family too too literally.
Speaker 1:It really does.
Speaker 2:You know, I heard about it here and there when I was at San Quentin. Yeah, saw that firsthand when I hit sack, sack. Oh, I saw so much of it. It's like, oh well, I saw you and you out. Yeah, you're not married. No, oh shit, I'll just shut up here.
Speaker 1:I'll stay here bro, the imperial valley man, calipad, ironwoods, fucking sentinel. It's like there's something in the water or the heat, bro, like fucking dogs down there.
Speaker 2:Man, oh shit, I just had to mix it up a little bit I'm honestly I was shocked when I started seeing some of that, you know. And then you start hearing about affairs. Then you start seeing her husband works third watch, she works second watch, but she's come up here flirting with this guy sitting on his lap, teasing him. Husband's coming to work, they're going home together, just like okay, okay yeah, dude, 100% fat bro yeah 100% fat. I never got caught up in any of that. Oh, I did I did I really.
Speaker 1:God rest my soul um.
Speaker 2:Yeah but uh, I don't know, I just never. I've always been a firm believer you don't shit where you eat. I say that now, but I met my wife at meal creek my current wife at meal creek.
Speaker 1:That is a good lesson. Don't shit where you eat, right 100. Don't fucking do it to the youngsters out there.
Speaker 2:And I take it into my current job.
Speaker 1:now To the youngsters out there man, do not fucking do it.
Speaker 2:But here I am. I'm married to somebody that worked at Mule Creek with me, but we met there. I was going through a divorce. Yeah, I like bigger women, thicker women, taller women. Me and my wife separated on June 28th. I met. I've seen this girl throughout, or this woman throughout my career there at meal Creek. I've always been attracted to her, but I was respectful. I have my situation. Regardless of whether I was unhappy or not, my ex wife may tell you different, but whatever, I was respectful of my situation, respectful of her situation. And then, all of a sudden July 4th 2018, we started talking one day in our TTA. And here we are, married with two kids and that's good, you know, probably the happiest I've ever been in my life. So that's cool. She's a good woman. She was at work for the TTA there. She wasn't. It was free staff and that's what's up, dude, but I was. That's never gonna happen. Never gonna happen. Right here I am you know.
Speaker 1:So, as the department's starting to change um, a lot of the older dudes are getting phased out. 3.0 newer, newer, younger managers that are just bending over for the man.
Speaker 2:Yes man, yes man, yes man women.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that's partly why I never promoted, because I wasn't.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I was never one of those Talk to us about that use of force incident that got you eventually dismissed from the department about that use of force incident that got you eventually dismissed from the department.
Speaker 2:So it was uh, I want to say december of 21 or 20, I can't remember the dates kind of get mixed up, but tell us about the mask incident with the captain that led up to that incident.
Speaker 2:So I worked building five at meal creek. It was an eop building. We had a new sergeant came come in and everybody thought she was cool at first, but then a new captain came to the yard. She left the staff alone that were in that building. There was a couple of management spots. She left the staff alone. We thought, okay, cool, she's cool. A new captain came on and this new captain he said he wanted to take control of five buildings Before I got to building five or my partners that were there a couple months before I got there.
Speaker 2:It was blue light after blue light after blue light. For those of you that don't know, blue light means there's an alarm going off, there's an incident. They got in there, started cleaning it up. I came over. I fit right into the dynamics very well. We all worked very well together and we stopped a lot of the problems in that building. We didn't kiss ass, but we built a rapport with inmates. If we had an incident, we'd handle it within house. You know, if there was going to be a cell fight, we'll handle it within house. We'll find a compatible cellmate for you and we just call up hey, we're going to do this cell move.
Speaker 2:This new captain came on and screwed up the whole dynamics. Captain Noms came in. He had a for lack of a better term. He had a hard time for building five. I don't know why. We were the quietest building on the in the facility pretty much at this point in time, but we were a busy unit being an eop. You have to medicate them as soon as you get there. Then you send them a shower, self-heat them whatever we're doing that day. Then you got to get them out to yard. Then you got to start your showers and you got to give them their day room. You got to do your constant boom. Then you got to bring them in for close custody count. Then you got to medicate them again when it was. It was a bill working unit, it wasn't a work unit. You can just sit on your ass Right. And for some reason this captain came in with a hard on and wanted to fuck with building five.
Speaker 2:Anthony Stinson was my partner. I worked with him over at SAC. Great officer Butch Gossett was another officer. Great officer Patrick Martinez was another officer. He was an old guy but he was one of those that just kind of went with the flow. He wouldn't cause any problems. He would do his job, he would take care of the books, he would take care of the inventories, all that type of stuff. So we all had our spots that we worked in. But we all worked well together. We got along great with the EOP free staff, the nurses that would pass out meds. We'd be like, hey, this guy's on it today, be careful. But for some reason this captain decided to come in there and change everything around. I don't know if he's trying to prove something, I don't know. So I'm in there.
Speaker 2:It was during COVID and I was still in the mindset we'll handle shit in-house. So we were going to have a cell fight. I brought one of the inmates out, sat him at a table, I sat across from him about as far as we are. Here I go. So what's the problem? A nurse had come in I say a nurse because he was wearing scrubs and starts taking pictures. So I saw what I'm doing. I go hang out. Here I go. Can you please identify yourself? I take his ID, I write it in the book and I write in the book that he was taking pictures. Now those of you that are listening don't understand. When you take pictures of an officer. You're putting him under investigation. So I immediately call ISU. I was on you. I go hey, this nurse is in here taking pictures of me and my staff with a cell phone. I'll handle it.
Speaker 2:So this is like I said it was during COVID. I might be jumping around a little bit, but when we're in contact with an inmate we're supposed to wear I think it's called the M95 mask. If not, we could wear the regular paper mask. So I was still wearing the paper mask as I was talking to this inmate. A little bit later I get called into the captain's office. Here's the LOI. What's his LOI for? You're wearing the wrong mask. I go what are you talking about? He goes oh well, you know, I got a picture of you wearing the wrong mask, so you violated my pull bar rights already Big time. And then I go I'm not going to sign this one. That sergeant wasn't even here today, not in the building today. Oh well, that doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:And me and this captain started yelling at me. So I'm like well, first he started yelling at me first and my thing is chew my ass out. Fine, I'll take it. My bad, it won't happen again, boss. And then we move on. So I think he's going to say chew my ass out. At the end of it he hands me a fucking LOI, I'm not going to fucking sign that. You just sat here and chewed my ass. Then he continues yelling at me Lieutenant's sitting here to my left, jaw just dropped, starts yelling at me again.
Speaker 2:Oh, I care about you, I care about your family. So I go, off, I go. You fucking care about me. Did you call me when my wife was in the hospital? She got taken in five days premature to have our baby. Did you call and check on me? You're going to say you can sit here and tell me you care about me. We don't know who the fuck I am. So we get done and I refuse to sign. I refuse to sign this sergeant. I didn't write in the bottom. Refuse to sign. This sergeant wasn't even in the building today or assigned to the building today. I refuse to sign, walk out. You could hear a pin drop in the rest of the office. I guess we were that loud a little bit later.
Speaker 2:A week later I found out, or maybe a couple of weeks. It was after the first year, cause this happened in early December. I find out. I'm under investigation. Were you under investigation for that? No, I was under investigation for unnecessary force, for incident that happened. I want to say it was like a few days later after this yelling incident with the captain. A few days later after this yelling incident with the captain On the same yard, on the same yard In the same building it was the same building as inmate, but it happened on the yard Inmate took off because we were still under COVID protocol. He took off out of the building, ran into the middle of the yard.
Speaker 2:I respond out there my sergeant's using force by holding him down. Anytime you're forcing somebody to the ground, you're using force. Absolutely I write to the ground. You're using force. Absolutely. I write that. I document it. I was ordered to take it out of my report. I'm like, okay, why you're just it's. You know the sergeant's using force to hold them down. It's a real quick report for her, easy. Yeah, it's actually the right thing to do, right. And I'm like you're like take it out of your report.
Speaker 1:I'm like, excuse me, take it out of the report real quick because I want to save a lot of these young correctional officers jobs. Had you I've seen it a bunch of times man supervisors tell cops they take that out of your report. Had you seen that a lot of times prior? Or I had had that happen to me a few times prior and it might have not been a big deal because you're kind of just like, oh fuck it sergeant's telling me to do it.
Speaker 2:I had one sergeant, her Her name was Junis, Great sergeant. I loved working with her. She told me hey, take this out of the report. It's not necessary. But I explained to her. But it paints a picture of his agitation before the incident, Right, and I explained it to her. In that sense she goes okay, leave it in there. Good call.
Speaker 1:So you know, yeah, but the ones that we're talking about are exactly the ones that had got you in a fucking way, dude, and I look at it.
Speaker 2:I think that there, ever since then, my career went to shit. So I'm escorting him across the yard. He's being resistive, so I punch him in the stomach. I was actually trying to get to my damn baton, but we had to wear the fucking yellow gown and I remember bringing it up. I go how can we get to our equipment? Well, you can get to it.
Speaker 1:And it was just. There was actually a correctional officer that got assaulted in housing unit 20 on Delta yard, rjd, and could not get to his equipment because they had the fucking gown on See.
Speaker 2:And so I just punched him in the stomach and he started behaving. I knew this inmate. I had this inmate in this building since, basically, I got into building five there at Mule Creek. Put him away. This is where shit gets hairy to me. Did you document the punch to the stomach? Yes, All right, good, and so I put him away. And before I put him away, because he was still being agitated, I made him kneel at the door with his hands behind his back and kind of crawl in because I didn't want him to turn around and assault me or my partners.
Speaker 2:Before I could even get the door closed, the phone was ringing off the hook. So we get him. I go answer it. It's my sergeant, my tagger. She goes did you use force? I go yes, I did. What'd you do? I punched him. She goes okay, the whole EOP center saw Okay, well, have you written a report yet? I go no, we got meds to do right now, Because I remember it was about 11 o'clock. We had meds. It was like I told you it was a busy unit. Why do you need your report? This is something they brought up in my hearing. Why did it take someone to write your report? It's an active building, we can't just stop, you know. And from that point, on.
Speaker 1:It was just Was it an option to send somebody to get you relieved? Or they didn't even consider that. They didn't even consider that.
Speaker 2:They didn't even consider it one bit. A lot of people didn't want to work building. Five People were not taking on overtime because back in the day it was a really bad unit. We had attempted murder on staff in there right before I transferred in there and I responded to that. But a lot of people didn't want to work in there because of the violence that went on in there Prior to us going in there. I don't want to say I did it, my partners did it. They played a vital role in getting that squared away and I walked in and just kind of supported them what they'd already done yeah, I've seen bad units get turned around to good units.
Speaker 1:Right usually requires to you know, work a little bit right, get off your chair and walk around and yes, stensing gossip.
Speaker 2:They worked well getting that unit squared away before I even got there. I just was able to come in and kind of provide support and what they'd already established holy shit, dude.
Speaker 1:so the part they told you to take out of your report was the sergeant using force. Sergeant using force, and that is. It's on video and per the dom, you, as a correctional officer or you, do have to articulate if you observed another staff member utilize force, correct? Is that what they jammed you up on, or was it the punch to the stomach? It was a punch to the stomach, and what did they call that? Or what narrative did they spin.
Speaker 2:They said it was unnecessary because the inmate was not resistive, but at the time he was resistive. The but at the time he was resistive. The video camera didn't show him being resistive. And my argument with the video camera is it it doesn't capture everything. It really doesn't. If you sit there and watch it, you see it skip, constantly skip, and it doesn't capture everything. Were you escorting them? I was, me and my partner were escorting them back to the building. And then then they asked did you get a 7219 done? I'm like, yes, I did, but we had to wait a couple of minutes to get the 7219 done because the nurses had already started med line in there.
Speaker 1:Did the inmate make allegations of unnecessary, excessive use of force? Inmate said I didn't even punch him.
Speaker 2:I'm glad when they interviewed the inmate for my hearing downtown inmate said no, he didn't punch me.
Speaker 1:Oh man. But they wouldn't take his word for it. It's just real funny how they pick and choose. The department will pick and choose. One day they'll believe an inmate, the next they won't. It's all about what agenda.
Speaker 2:So here's the kicker. So my grammar sucks. I'm a high school graduate, I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to sit here and say I can write a good report. Yeah, my grammar Hammer sucked. So before I submitted that report with the use of force in it, I sent it to my buddy Gossett, who is now S&E for the prison. He worked in our watch office, you know hiring overtime and whatnot. I sent it to him via email. Oh hey, can you proofread this? So when the shit hit the fan, they go. Well, where's the proof? He still had it in his email. So he was able to provide that because I had to contact him privately and ask him to provide it, but did they jam you up for sending a report via email?
Speaker 2:No, because he didn't change the report, he just corrected the grammar. Okay, and I made it very clear that he would correct my grammar. He even said that he wrote that I just corrected his grammar, I didn't change the verbiage. And I go look, my grammar sucks commas and all that shit. I'm not gonna lie, I'm not smart.
Speaker 1:so up until that point right, because I mean, I can see how this is gonna play out. Up until that point you're just working your housing unit five. It's a fucking busy building eop. You get into it with the captain, there's an incident, enemy runs out, the fucking building sergeant holds him down, he resists, you punch him in the stomach. You document it at that point in time. Did you ever think you would get fired at that point in time? No, no. Did you think everything was just all good and procedural? Or did you think, man, the administration's doing a little too much on this one?
Speaker 2:This is where it started to get weird with me, or for me. I went to our union rep. I'm not going to lie. I thought this lady was a bitch when I first met her. She was an officer she had transferred in from Stockton. I thought she was a bitch and I even told her this later down the line. She knew policy and procedure like the back of her fucking hand. She knew the dom like the back of her hand. I went to her when it started getting sideways. What'd they do? Stop me from using her? Put her under investigation. No fucking way, dude. They put her under investigation because the sergeant that I took out of the report said something to her. And that's when I'm like this is going sideways. This is fucking going. This is growing a set of legs and taking off. This is going sideways. She ended up saying fuck it and retired. She was within that age. She's like I'm done.
Speaker 1:Now, don't these tactics of targeting and retaliation remind you of Mexican mafia? It does it really does.
Speaker 2:There's more to this. So when I ended up going to my hearing for this unnecessary force, I went to the Skelly hearing. I thought we'll be good there. The AW I had a good rapport with and I can kind of see on her face I'm not going to name her names, I don't want her caught up I can kind of see on her face she could. She's like not buying the whole narrative that she's being given. She was a AW who had worked her way up through the department, Very personable. I've talked to her, you know, in the hall privately numerous times. I could tell by her body language and her facial expressions at it this. She wasn't buying what they were laying down for me and she goes well, she'll submit the paperwork on. And of course it was denied and they upheld it. Then I went to the hearing downtown.
Speaker 2:When I went to the hearing downtown this is what still pisses me off to this day they're scrounging around to find my witnesses. Because I want to say it was probably seven, eight witnesses that said they saw this guy being resistive. There was four that said he was not resistive, all four. One was a doctor or psychiatrist, the other three her cronies. I have since found out that that doctor and that captain for lack of a better term were fucking on the outside 100%, and I'm like where are my witnesses? We couldn't get a hold of them. So why are we having this hearing here? Then we should postpone this until we get witnesses. We can't get them. There was one more witness that was supposed to show up for my hearing on my behalf.
Speaker 1:Couldn't get the time off all of a sudden. So what is it?
Speaker 1:that you were dismissed for dishonesty, unnecessary force, and then dishonesty, because I said I was dishonest in my report by saying he was resistive and that is a clear example of how they do, how they do word scrabble, how they change the narrative because you used force, right, and you documented that you used force. Okay, so it's not like you lied, it's not like you punched a dude and try to hide it. You fucking articulated it Right. So then they try to say, oh well, he wasn't resistive, therefore you're lying Right, and the only motherfuckers that know whether he was resisting or not is the inmate and you and anybody else in the immediate area. Okay, at what point did they serve you dude? Were you at work when they called you into the?
Speaker 2:No, I was actually off because of my knee. Oh, workman's call, I was off on my knee. Yeah, I'd had. How'd they serve you? I went in to pick up a check, or went in to do something, and the ISU lieutenant said hey, cook, come on over here, served me my paperwork right there.
Speaker 1:Now do you know that there's thousands of people like you that have gotten fired over some fucking bullshit? No, I was. Oh yeah, man, that's what I'm telling you, especially what I do. Now People reach out to me yeah, dude, it's fucking plaguing the department and hopefully we can turn it back around. You know, were you I mean, for the lack of better terms upset? Were you in denial? Were you expecting it? I was upset, I was pissed. Honestly, I was upset.
Speaker 2:I was pissed. Honestly, I was pissed, I was just. If you go, you pull my reports up. Throughout my career, I've never been dishonest. You ask staff I've worked with, I've never been dishonest.
Speaker 2:I'm the guy yeah, boss, I fucked up on this. Right, I'll take the slap on the hand or the write-up, whatever you need to do, cause I know you have a job to do. It is what it is, nothing personal. I'm that guy that would be. Yeah, I fucked up, I did this my bad.
Speaker 2:And for me to be called dishonest for lack of a better term it hurt me. I'm like, I'm not dishonest, I'm not Even my current job. If I make a call, I'm like, yeah, boss, that was my call, I'm not blaming somebody else, I made that call, I did that. I'll own my shit. And it hurt me because I don't. You know, that's my character, right, and that's something I got to live with for the next few years because I'm on the fucking brady list now. Damn, yeah. So if I try to get a job, say as a bails bondsman, and I'm going to court, they can pull. Well, you're on the brady list, you've been dishonest before, right, so it's something's going to plague me for the next few years and I fall off that list. But I didn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 2:I stand by my report. I stand by everything. Even everybody that was there with me stood with me. You know the my officer that was that was escorting with me. I understand his hands were tied. I'm not upset with him. He's a was a newer officer. He was in a 30% position. I'm not upset with him. He was a newer officer. He was in a 30% position. I'm not upset with him. The gunner saw him being resistive. I saw him being resistive. Other doctors saw him being resistive.
Speaker 1:Would you have punched him if he was not resisting? No?
Speaker 2:No, there would have been no reason to. Exactly, I wasn't one to use it forced unless it was absolutely necessary. I mean, I had it down to the building where if I told you get down the first time, you got down, I'm not spraying you and it's not like it was a staff assault, right?
Speaker 1:I mean they said he just ran out of the fucking building, yeah he just ran out of the building.
Speaker 2:He was, he was eop inmate ran out into the middle of the yard with no yard out and was just acting a fool. He was, you know, he wasn't mentally there, you know, but he was being resistive. I was trying to walk him back to the building.
Speaker 1:God damn, dude. Yeah, that's your fucking story. Gave me anxiety, man, because I've, I've. Luckily, I never went through it Right, and there's no reason why I resigned before they pinned some bullshit on me and I would have been another fucking statistic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I am a statistic sitting here across me, and that's something I got to live with.
Speaker 1:And does it help you to share your story to the public or to the mass it does actually?
Speaker 2:It. You know I want to make people aware of what, what, what, aware of what really goes on within the department. You piss one wrong person off and there goes your whole fucking career. My goal in the department was to reach Lieutenant top as Lieutenant and then retire. That was my whole goal. I would have even been happy as a Sergeant.
Speaker 2:I was trying to go to the Academy to get off the line. Yeah, I'm not catty material, I'm kind of a big guy kind of, you know, intimidating looking. I understand that. I don't. I don't hold that against the Academy. I interviewed there three or four times. Yeah, I don't hold that against them. I understand I'm not a pretty guy that's going to. You know I'll dress in my uniform if I need to. But you know, looking at the academy starters no disrespect to them at all, they're not intimidating or scary looking. Unfortunately, I got tattoos and I'm kind of a bigger guy. At the time I told them I'll shave my beard. When I went for my interview I shaved my beard. Yeah, damn my beard, yeah so damn dude.
Speaker 1:So that year that you got dismissed was 2019, 21, 2021, 2021 fuck, dude.
Speaker 2:Then I had knee surgery in 22. So in 2019 I was injured in another incident. Me and my buddy were releasing out of that same building we're releasing yard. An inmate comes and gets right in his face and I go hey, bro, back up. And he's like squared up and I immediately doused him. He got in your face. No, he got in my partner's face. Okay, we had a podium, my partner's on that side of the podium. I'm standing here and we're literally like watching Yara come out, watching for anything going on. Inmate comes up, gets right in his face. I go hey, bro, back up. Started mouthing situation, right. He ends up jumping over the podium, coming after me. I end up fucking slipping his spray and fucked up. My knee gunner ends up shooting him right in the crotch. Put him down. We were able to get the cuffs on him. The inmate later talked to me right before, after it was all cleaned up a couple a few months later. If you got out of ad seg because, man, I got some bad dope, bro, I'm so sorry, I go what he goes. Yeah, I got man, he goes. I did not know what the hell was going on because I read the report. He goes dude, nothing personal towards you, he goes my bad. So but yeah, it hurt.
Speaker 2:My knee went out and had surgery and that was in May. Had surgery in August, returned to the line in November. But I was continuing to have problems with my knee then COVID hit and that I asked for a second opinion outside of Kaiser. Covid hit and kind of delayed everything. Lo and behold, I needed a knee replacement. So my career was done regardless and one of my negotiating terms trying to get my job back, just hey, I'm going to medically retire. Don't fire me, let me resign or medically retire. Did they uphold that or no? No, they wanted my.
Speaker 1:Were you at? Oh yeah, you were at 3.0 at 50,. Man, we just fucking we went over that yeah.
Speaker 2:That's why I really think they were wanting the 3.0s out. Yeah, dude, because they're losing money on us. They really were. I enjoyed the career A lot of times. I met some really cool people. I learned a lot, but what a lot of people don't understand is my sleep went to shit. I don't One doctor tried to diagnose me with PTSD because of all the stuff I saw, all the stuff I was a part of. I don't want to be diagnosed with that because we got real veterans that are really diagnosed with that shit, you know. So I'm not going to compare my shit to their shit. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Well, trauma is trauma and I'm huge fucking advocate on that man, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:I am too. I just I look minute compared to what these guys have done. So I didn't want to label myself that and say I got PTSD. So I just no, I don't want that label. So my sleep pattern was fucked up. I still have sleep trouble here and there. Honestly, I just discovered THC because we couldn't do it in the department. Yeah, my sleep has improved greatly. I mean, he came to the point where I was having to have a couple of drinks every night just to fucking wind down. Damn you know. But I did have some cool people I worked with.
Speaker 2:When I shot those, when I use lethal force, I had a buddy. I lost him in my divorce to became friends with her. Whatever he goes, hey, I'm coming over. Didn't ask, can I come over, I'm coming over. Came over, we sat on my patio decompressed, brought some beer. We sat there, didn't get drunk, just sat there and decompressed. But having a strong support system at home would have been beneficial. My ex-wife asked me why'd you do it? It's my job, but why? You could have just looked the other way. I'm not that guy. Yeah, I'm not that guy. If we're walking down the street right now, you get jumped. I'm in it with you, man, we're rolling. You know what I mean? I'm not that guy. My wife now she's fucking solid as fuck.
Speaker 2:If that incident would have happened with her it would have been a whole different outcome as far as me mentally, right outcomes as far as me mentally, you know.
Speaker 1:Right. What advice do you have to new correctional officers, man, that are literally in the position that they're in right now? Dude Leave.
Speaker 2:Leave, leave, leave, leave the department. Go work for another department. Work for the sheriffs, work for, go to CHP, work for a department that actually cares about you. And you say that because of the toxic environment. The toxic environment all the way around in CDCR Leave If you have no other choice. Try to find a job where you can stay out of the mix. What?
Speaker 1:is the problem that you see with the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation? Is it the leadership, the command, the structure, the machine? What do you see, egos?
Speaker 2:Egos and leadership, and the structure, the machine. What do you see? Egos, egos and leadership, and I think they're overthinking things. Overthinking things? Yeah, it's the rehabilitation, but when you have inmates that don't want to rehabilitate themselves, why are you going to force them to, honestly? And then the cadets they're hiring I wouldn't hire them at my job if some of these guys have come in.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. One comparison when I was the lieutenant. One comparison I said was like damn, these new kids are like dog catchers that are afraid of dogs. Exactly why would you join the fucking?
Speaker 2:job. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly exactly with the climate the way it is now. With your experience, would you be able to maneuver without getting in trouble? Or would you still kind of have to change up your tactics a little bit?
Speaker 2:or you just fucking put the blindfold on and honestly, I'm not one of those that can avoid stuff, dude, like if I see my partner getting gonna get himself in a wreck, I'm that guy that's gonna be right there. Come on, man, let's calm down, let's handle this this way, or whatever. I can't do that. That's not ingrained in me.
Speaker 1:But I'm talking about inmate utilizing contraband, smoking dope getting high slamming.
Speaker 2:So we all had our own ways of doing things in the unit. If we found a bag of wine and he was a programmer, did you take it? Hey man, cap it off. Or you and walk away. He's a programmer, he's not going to cause any problems. Cool, you know the dope weapons.
Speaker 2:That's something I kind of push, especially when it came to syringes and stuff like that. I'm getting you on that because now you're putting me at risk. If I walk in there, I get stuck with something. That's why a lot of times, if you build up a rapport with the inmates, hey man, you have anything in your house that could poke me, you tell me now I'll flush it and I won't write you up for it. Yeah, and that's what I started utilizing towards the end of my career. For the most part, the guys that knew me knew I was legit. I'd rather not get poked and not write this guy up than get poked, because now I'm going on the cocktail and I don't remember what it was, but it wasn't. A couple months you couldn't have sex, you couldn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fuck you, you were sick as a dog and everything else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it wasn't worth the risk to me, so Damn dude. Hope.
Speaker 1:I answered your question. Yeah, fucking A man. Do you have any last closing words for the audience? Dude, it was a fucking honor having you on the show, bro. It was like a trip down.
Speaker 2:I enjoyed what I did when I did it, when I had a great supporting cast around me. You can make a unit work. You can run a unit. You can run a yard when you have great staff and great leadership. But when you have wardens that are trying to put their hands in the mix and try to tell you how to run a yard when they've never worked on a fucking line themselves, they just have a fucking degree in taking the fast track up. Well, you've never worked on the line. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. You really don't.
Speaker 1:Real quick. What's your take on wardens that were never correctional officers? You should never be a fucking warden.
Speaker 2:If you weren't in law enforcement in some capacity, you should never be a warden. You don't know what goes on behind those doors. You don't know what goes on in those buildings. You go home at four o'clock in the afternoon. You hear little bits, but you haven't experienced it firsthand. You haven't experienced getting gas getting spit on, getting headbutted, getting kicked, walking guys across the yard 110 degrees out and you got full gear on. Or getting held over. Or when you do the shakedowns and we're, we're in there. Excuse me, you have dick dust all over you. You're fucking got, you know, going through some inmate cell. That's a nasty pack rat and you haven't experienced that. So until you can experience that, how the hell can you be a warden? You don't have to be assaulted, but still be on the line and know what's the what's possible, correct walk, walk the yard. Not walk the yard with a suit on, because everybody knows who you are since you walk the yard.
Speaker 1:They're not're not going to do anything. No, they change up their attitude and demeanor hey, good morning ma'am, good morning sir. Exactly.
Speaker 2:Walk around with a jumpsuit on. Don't walk around class A's Walk around with a jumpsuit on.
Speaker 1:Let them think you're an officer and see what you see and see what you experience. Yeah for sure, dude. Well, there you guys have it, folks. Another banger man. You guys wanted to hear from a CO. There you have it. Csp, saks, san Quentin and Mule Creek Love you guys. Keep pushing forward. You've been listening to Hector Bravo, unhinged Follow for more.
