Hector Bravo UNHINGED
Official Hector Bravo Podcast
Hector Bravo UNHINGED
Marlon Marocchi - From Navy to LAPD: Navigating LA's Law Enforcement Dynamics
Have you ever wondered what it takes to transition from the serene landscapes of Peru to the bustling streets of Los Angeles as a police officer? Join us as we welcome Marlon Marocchi, a 24-year veteran of the LAPD, who shares his fascinating journey from the Navy to the LAPD, and the cultural dynamics that shaped his career. Discover why many officers prefer to live in quieter suburbs like Santa Clarita and Chino Hills, and gain insights into Marlon's personal path to law enforcement, influenced by a pivotal friendship during his time in the Navy.
Marlon offers a front-row seat to the evolution of policing in LA, particularly in the San Fernando Valley. The episode uncovers the evolving nature of police training and the critical importance of de-escalation tactics in today's complex law enforcement landscape. We explore scenarios where use of force is inevitable and dissect legal precedents that guide officers in split-second decision-making. Learn about the intricate balance between tradition and modernity as Marlon reflects on the physical and mental demands of the job.
Our deep dive into the inner workings of the LAPD continues as we explore the world of internal affairs. Marlon shares candid experiences from his transition to investigating officer misconduct, highlighting the emotional and professional challenges faced by those who uphold accountability within the force. Through personal anecdotes, we examine the impacts of misconduct investigations, the complexities of disciplinary actions, and the evolution of police responsibilities amidst societal changes. This episode promises to shed light on the dedication, adaptability, and resilience required to navigate the multifaceted world of law enforcement today.
Hector Bravo. Unhinged chaos is now in session welcome back to our channels, warriors.
Speaker 2:Another banger today, but before that, make sure you hit the subscribe button. Today's special guest is Marlon Marocchi, 24 year veteran of the Los Angeles police department. What's up, dude? What's going on, marlon? What's up, dude? What's going on, bro Marachi, 24-year veteran of the Los Angeles Police Department. What's up, dude? What's going on, marlon? What's up, dude? What's going on, bro? Thanks for coming bro yeah, I said you took the train. How was that experience?
Speaker 1:man, you know what, anytime that you can just see the coast, the beach. Yeah, I haven't taken a train since, I want to say, when I used to work in LAPD, far, I used to take the train to work. But otherwise than that, man, it was a great ride bro.
Speaker 2:Most of all, no traffic, dude.
Speaker 1:No traffic. Avoid the traffic. You know, lower back kind of hurts a little as you get older, right, but you hey, man, I drive. We've done this before, so happy to be here, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for coming on my show man. I've been on yours a few times and then we got some stuff in the works in the future dude. Uh, so are you? Were you raised in los angeles? Native um, born and raised in peru? Really, yeah, I come.
Speaker 1:There was something about you, yeah yeah, uh, came here in uh, 1980. So, given the age, and I've been here for 40 plus years and I'm all 818, I'm from the san fernando valley, I never left the valley, and let me just kind of divert a little bit. But the culture in lepd, yeah, believe it or not, and a lot of the lepd folks know this, is that, uh, they live far bro. They don't want to live within the city of los angeles what are some of the outskirts?
Speaker 1:Well, for example, for the San Fernando Valley, a lot of cops live in Santa Clarita, valencia, palmdale, lancaster, stevenson's Ranch. And for the South End coppers, the people who work, 77, southeast Hollenbeck, all the South. A lot of them go to Chino Hills, eastvale and some even live in Orange County. But not many and I'm proud, proud, 818, not many, actually get to stay in the city and live where you actually work nice, no for sure, dude.
Speaker 2:So they're like some people. There's some cops that stay in the ghetto. I'm sure there are cops that come from the ghetto. Do they stay there as they work, or is it a goal to get the hell out of?
Speaker 1:no, you want, you want to get the hell out. Some do. Yeah, I mean, you know, look, there's parts in the san fernando valley, no, any different than parts in la, and I'm certain I can speak for san diego national city, tula vista, just all over california, where you know what I? I don't think. I just want to live here so I'll make more money, good living, good profession, you know what? Start a family, get out of here, exactly. And you know, you know the? Uh. The rule is, the farther you live, uh, the cheaper. It's probably going to be location, location, location that.
Speaker 2:And then, like we were saying start a family so you think you want to get your kids away from yeah, yeah that environment?
Speaker 1:yeah, of course, absolutely bro, of course.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, bro. Peru man LA dude. So did you always want to be a cop?
Speaker 1:Actually, no. What I will say is, really have that much guidance, that much direction, you know, like a father figure that's there to kind of guide you and tell you hey, you know what, this is what you should do, this is what you shouldn't do, or someone that's there, you know, cracking the whip to make sure you're walking a straight arrow. So for me, I don't know, that's a really good question. I say this all the time. My best friend, who has 28 years I beat him, rick, if you're listening, I beat you to a retirement and he was very influential in making my decisions because he was in the police academy while I was still in the Navy and I know I didn't want to reenlist, and then he pretty much told me this is a great gig and this is going to be, you know, faced with a lot of challenges, and one thing led to another and I didn't want to reenlist and I applied and here we are.
Speaker 2:Dude, I didn't even know you were in the Navy man, navy man, navy. Yeah, bro, that's what I like about you, man You're humble. I've known you for probably over a year now dude.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've known each other for a bit.
Speaker 2:We've never even confided in you, even though you were in the Navy dude. North Island baby.
Speaker 1:Really, this is home. I know I got a little street cred here, yeah what about Tijuana man? Always Club Zool. What else Papa's and Beer bro Back in the days. Oh, dude Me and my boys and you know you listen Consolation guys, the Connie my boys in our ship. We would always take off on the weekends and hit downtown TJ bro.
Speaker 1:I bet they were just loving that peruvian guy man they were for for a bit, for a bit. It was definitely best decision I made to get my shit together. Yeah, right to become something right. And I gotta tell you, man, that gi bill and that va loan and, dude, you know this, uh, all that, all that pays off, man.
Speaker 2:You made it, bro. You made it. Congrats, dude, and thank you for serving our country. Bro, didn't even know that, man. Uh. So lapd dude, you. You looking for guidance. You're in the navy. You already know what it's like to wear the uniform and to serve. What was your knowledge of police officers at that point? Was it watching on the news movies?
Speaker 1:uh well, I can tell you that the uh, the 1992 riots, went down and I was just like fuck dude, do I really want to do this? There's cats, I mean, there was actually footage. Uh, I don't know if you remember this, but in koreatown, k-town, right, they had these dudes up there with fucking rooftop, fucking koreans about to take everybody out. And then, of course, when I get in, I started asking questions to my ftos, right, my field training officers hey, where were you in the uh, in the riots are like bro, there was a time where they actually roll four deep and they would actually see someone bloodshed bro right in front of them, like dying pretty much by the time they get out to try to go help and grab the body. They were just bullets flying everywhere. They're like you know what? Now get back in the car and try to get it. Literally it was a war zone.
Speaker 1:So I bring that up to say that at the time it's you know I my biggest concern. I used to say a fear was hey, you know what do I really want to carry a gun? Because at the time that I was thinking about applying, there was this controversial landmark case in the city of New York with NYPD called the Diallo shooting, where this kid got shot 44 times when he was walking up to his apartment complex and they were asking him don't you know, don't reach for your pockets, reach for your pockets, let me see your hands. Let me see your hands. He pulls out a wallet and they just do him 44 shots. So I always felt like I don't know if I really want to do that. But I will say, hector, that once I applied and once I got that congratulations and moved to the next step, man, I was pumped.
Speaker 2:Oh, I bet I was ready. I bet, man, I was pumped. Oh, I bet I was ready. I bet man and we'll double back on that one shooting in New York once we get into IA to see your perspective of internal affairs. What is it called? Agent or officer? Internal affairs, internal affairs, yeah.
Speaker 1:IA.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's all IA. All right so before we dive in too deep, man, what was one of the first beats or patrol areas that you were patrolling?
Speaker 1:My uh, uh in the Valley 818, uh, let's see, in foothills, where I actually did my probation, and out of all the places in the San Fernando Valley, I wasn't really too familiar with foothill division. It was like 60 plus square miles and at one point there's this place called the rock, which is off Sunland. That goes all the way up North. All my LEPD guys know about the rock and it was a little foreign to me because one of the first things and you'll appreciate this, a cop today, from a cop that it was 25 years ago is that you had to know, you had to know directions. Absolutely matt 101.
Speaker 1:If you didn't know where you were going, stand by, you know. So it'll be like. It'll be like this if I'm your fto, okay, hector, where am I going? Right, and I'm just driving. So I'm waiting on you to tell me where to go. Well, you know, let's uh, uh, make a right right here. Right, did you say. Right did you mean westbound? Is that what you meant? Going westbound? Wow, and so you had a map and you had to figure out how to tell your fto where, uh, to go to get to the actual location. So, uh, those were tough times man.
Speaker 2:Oh, dude, that's one of the perks of this channel man, is I get to ask og cops? I refer you guys to the ogs, you know. I mean you guys started this foundation, like laid the foundation for this newer generation, and things were way different back then man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot of tradition that I feel as though it has dwindled to the point where there really isn't much. I do talk to some of my partners now, the southern part of LAPD, like 77, southeast and southwest they still continue to have a couple of traditions, meaning you got to wear your class A's, really, oh yeah, up until the point where your FTO looks at you and says, okay, you know what you've earned to wear your class C's, which is your short sleeves. Okay, or some you, you, you know those baits, dress shoes, you have to earn how to wear your boots back in those days and those traditions you know have gone away in a sense, but some out of the 23 plus LAPD divisions and no knocking on the other ones if I've forgotten but I still believe that there is some tradition left, like it was 25 years ago.
Speaker 2:How imperative was physical fitness for a police officer back in those days.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I'm a soccer dude and if, look man, if I would have stayed home in Peru, I would have ended up being pro. That's how much I love this shit. I mean it's in my blood.
Speaker 2:So for me, running, you know, that wasn't really a big deal, uh, but that's an interesting question because I'm asking more along the lines of how would it affect your ability to chase down hardened criminals and fleeing suspects and have to fight for your life Right it's?
Speaker 1:a. Well, I tell you what BJJ today was not around in my times, and in my times we were so scrutinized about using force Like, for example, in today's 835 APC. Example in today's 835 APC. In your use of force power in the state of California, the laws are so embedded and if you really read it it's so stricted to the point where, yeah, I understand we have to deescalate, but pretty much California Post is asking in any law enforcement officer to get it on before you start even thinking about using a deadly force.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Of course decisions you know, and the shittiest part is, you know this, you know the average OIS is less than two seconds Right. So my point is is that back in my days there used to be like restrictions, like oh shit, I can't fucking, you know fucking get it on and start punching you. You know strikes to get you on the ground and effect an arrest. I don't necessarily think back then you were like shit, I don't think I can do that. Right, punching someone in the face, really that's shitty. But BJJ is you know, hey man, there wasn't many people who really paid attention to being in shape, no, any different than there's. I'm certain there's a lot of cops here in the state of california that don't pay attention right to being in shape. I mean, how many times you and I've seen an overweight cop?
Speaker 2:right. I just think it's more of a issue, way more of an issue in today's day and age, 2024, than in the past yes, but now there is more of a mandate for you to de-escalate where 25 years ago uh, it was ass telling.
Speaker 1:We used to tell us atd bro, ass telling do.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about that, because you've mentioned de-escalation twice and I got a professional in the room um, it's your bread and butter, dude. Penal code, right, de-escalation? And I know what the policy says and I know what the law says and I know what practical application is. The penal code states that peace officers do not have a duty to retreat. Correct, yes, what?
Speaker 1:does that mean to you? It's embedded there. Well, depending on the circumstances, obviously right. There is situations where you don't have a duty to retreat. But, however, that duty to retreat comes along the lines with de-escalation. So there's language in 835 APC that mentions duty to retreat, but it doesn't really kind of like spell it out. Well, what do you mean by? You know me not retreating or do I retreat? So these are decisions that you have to make. However, part of de-escalation is and, by the way, my beloved LAPD. I got to give them props, man.
Speaker 1:They came up with the best acronym. You know cops love acronyms. You know their acronym is patrol. So anytime you get into a situation where you think this shit's about to go down, you got to start thinking of this acronym patrol. So P stars for planning. So you got to be able to okay, hector, you know we, we got to come up with a plan. You know how the fuck we're going to arrest this dude, right, cause I don't know there's a lot of shit going on, right.
Speaker 1:A is for assessment. We have to assess. T is for time. You know, is time of the essence, or do we have time? I don't know. That's something that we have to weigh and measure, right.
Speaker 1:Uh, the r is for resources, right, I'm sorry, it's for redeployment. Redeployment, it's redeploying, right. Or, uh, you know, finding, you know finding, uh, concealment. So, for example, I don't know, we're in the middle of the field and next thing, you know, this dude fucking pulls out a gun. Well, fucking, a. You know, we got to go get cover. Right, we have to redeploy, maybe, all the sources. Who knows right?
Speaker 1:And so, uh, the o stands for other resources. You know, hey, let's get a crisis negotiation team out here, let's get, maybe it's a SWAT call out. We got to get SWAT out here, whatever the case may be. And last but not least, it's the lines of communication. So the lines of communications means that it's not just you and I talking, it's the sergeant who's at scene, it's the person who actually called. It may be the victim, it's also the suspect. So you want to be able to have a lot of communication with what's going on. So this acronym patrol really spells out what you're supposed to do today, and it is what the state of California wants. What I'm telling you is that if you're in shape or not, well, let's just say, if you're completely fucking out of shape right, you probably have more time to kind of think about the escalating.
Speaker 2:but back then, so let me give you a scenario, because this is what. Let me clarify it for you. Okay, but I totally agree with what you're saying. And me clarify it for you. Okay, but I totally agree with what you're saying and I understand that concept. Working in a prison as a supervisor man, I seen a lot of officer and you said it, you hit it perfectly ask, tell and make. I'm gonna ask the individual and if he doesn't do it, I'm gonna tell him correct, and if he doesn't do it, I'm gonna make him correct. Ask, tell, make. Yes, as a supervisor, I seen a lot of times where an officer will go to grab an inmate to put him in handcuffs and the inmate will pull away Right To us. That's an imminent threat, right, we don't know if he's going to come back and punch the officer, but at that point the officer disengages, disengages what he already started, right, and anybody that has experience in arresting somebody or placing somebody in restraints, you don't ever disengage that fight once it's on right, a good point.
Speaker 1:Uh, the only thing that I would say is that you know it sucks to uh to be that sergeant or that lieutenant, to debrief, but you got to look at your partner and say, hey, dude, the fuck, are you thinking?
Speaker 2:oh, this was, uh, this was a freaking. This, this is contagious, bro, this is a fucking problem.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, you know one of the things that kind of remind me of my last time before I retired. I worked the trains because MTA, we had the contract LAPD and I'm just going to check on my guys on the platform and I get flagged down and this lady's like and this lady's like, oh my God, this guy's killing me. And you can tell, this dude was after her, kind of looks like he had a weapon. Dude, I go, code six. I'm at scene, dude, and I'm just looking at this guy going. Please, whatever you do, just don't run. I'm not running, I'm not going to run because I really know what I have right. So, unbeknownst to me, they put out a backup. It was an ADW, solid-deadly weapon call, and so, of course, I put my cell code 6. I'm asking for additional units.
Speaker 1:This dude was fucking out of his mind. Dude, he wasn't just 51-50. He was like 51-51, bro, wow, maybe 51-52. Because what he ended up doing was you know those big old trash can containers, right, yeah, he decides to lay himself out prone with a hand uh, underneath you know the actual trash can container and he's going I'm gonna blow this place up. Don't come near me. Don't come near me. And for a second he had me going while I'm waiting. He had me going, man, maybe he does have something.
Speaker 1:So what do I do? I kind of walk around. I get in a push-up position. Look I go, man, this guy's full of shit With your homeless.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, he was crazy and probably a transfer, right 1942 transfer is what we used to call him, right. So what ends up happening is my officers get there and one of the officers dude, he was like 6'3" solid, big dude, young, you know, slick hair. Okay, big dude, young, you know slick hair. Okay, sarge, what do you want us to do? So, just to your point, I said listen, here's what we're going to do Sling the beanbag button.
Speaker 1:You three are going to approach dude and I'm here to tell you the minute, not even the minute the second you put your hands on him, he better not fucking squirm, you better arrest him and grab his hands as fast as you can, use as much force as you can. Right, do what you got to do to affect that arrest, right, code four in custody. We're good to go and they did. That's awesome. So my point to you is that I can only imagine, in a prison environment where shit's probably happening daily, all day long, all day long, and it's one of those things where you should do some self-reflection, whoever that correctional officer is, and say you know what, maybe I do need to take some bjj, maybe I do need to improve, because this kind of shit where I disengage. That shit ain't happening, bro. Well, I know what it is.
Speaker 2:it's the fear of getting fired, and maybe you can speak on that as we progress. It's their thinking about I'm going to get fired as opposed to thinking I might possibly get fucking killed right now. But I wanted to talk back on or add more to the de-escalation. Let me tell you something right now, bro If you're a police officer and you get slapped in the fucking face, you're not de-escalating.
Speaker 1:anything Would you agree or would you not agree 100%? What people don't understand also is is that using lethal force is part of the escalating. So, for example, uh, there is a gun or a knife right here, right, and I'm sitting right here. You're standing over there and you say to me marlin, suspect, don't reach. Oh, and, by the way, you got the 40, you got the beanbag, okay, right, and you're telling dude, if you fucking grab that gun, that knife, whatever that weapon, I'm gonna hit you and it's gonna hurt, it's gonna hurt bad. Oh, yeah, fuck, you go ahead, go ahead. And then, once I start going for it, pop. You hit him with non, uh, non-lethal, right, less lethal force. That's de-escalating. People don't seem to understand that. You get punched in the face. You're lethal force, that's deescalating.
Speaker 1:People don't seem to understand that you get punched in the face. You're right, there is no deescalation. You drive up, you and I drove up to 7-Eleven. We see we hear pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop and dude starts running with a fucking AK-47. We're not deescalating. Listen, we're not deescalating. So deescalation is not something that we should say. Hey, you know, we're going to go in there and deescalate One, two, what my boss over at Savage Training Group talks a lot about is that it's an invitation. You have to buy into it, suspect. You can't just come up to a suspect and say, boop, you've been deescalated Right, here we go. No, you have to get a buy-in. Yeah, you're not just checking a block.
Speaker 1:Well, not only that. I mean, if I'm talking to you and you're not even fucking, you can care less what I'm saying to you. Right? I did a breakdown of a video with this lady, female, black. She's huge, she's in the car.
Speaker 1:The cops pulled over, bro, she just ran a stop sign and she's sitting there going no, I'm not, I'm not getting out, I'm not getting out of the car. She had a suspended driver's license, right, it's a crime, right, to try to get out of the car. They even warned her and told her listen, if you don't get out of the car, we're going to have to use force to get you out of the car. You can't get any more clear than that, right. And so next on, do they get her out, bro?
Speaker 1:She was a six, three. She's huge, huge in stature, and she decides to kick the cop like by the nuts, bro. And then he turns around and punches her in the face. So everybody's commenting like, oh my god, she's a female, I can't believe you punch her in the face. Well, shit, this bitch fucking kicked me in. You know, it took two of them to get this lady, you know, to get their hands and going to custom. My point is is that there are situations where you can de-escalate because the state requires you to do so Right, but there's a lot of situations also and keep that in mind where de-escalation is just not something that is at issue or is presented.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad I have you here today, bro, because I like to leave the viewers with a message, with knowledge, with wisdom, bro, and this is going to hopefully save people's lives, man, because to me, hesitation kills, right Hesitation will get you killed.
Speaker 1:I agree 100%. The average OIS is less than two seconds. You will be scrutinized and you'll be completely judged by the things that get guess what? The things that you didn't do more than the things that you did on that particular incident. And so what ends up happening is you can't, you can't risk that man. You and we're talking about number one, we're talking about your freedom. You know meaning you could get filed on criminally. And number two you got to get home to your family. You know it's a matter of life and death. And these are situations where I remember you were telling me the story when you came on the podcast about Edward Scissorhands. Oh yeah, you know, I mean, you even broke his wrist Broke his forearm.
Speaker 2:You're right.
Speaker 1:And he still.
Speaker 2:Well, he was high on meth you know, that's my point.
Speaker 1:So certain circumstances are going to lead you to getting it on and I tell you, if you're not doing BJJ, that is it. You know, that is a way of controlling Right and getting you know. I think one of the hardest parts that I've seen, because I've been doing a lot of breakdowns lately oh yeah, I've been watching you, man, thank. I think one of the hardest parts that I've seen, because I've been doing a lot of breakdowns lately oh yeah, I've been watching you, man, thank you Is for every time that someone is on the ground, you want to get the hands to get in the back, and that becomes a big, big challenge for a lot of people. Absolutely, and so that, in and of itself, if you can go and learn, man, my suggestion is have at it. So on to the next question, my suggestion is you know, have at it.
Speaker 2:So let's so on to the next question. Yes, people see a video footage of correct or or of police officers punching a woman in the face, refusing to get out of the car. Now I want you to tell us what is Graham versus Connor?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, graham V Connor is your objectionable, reasonable standard right. So you have to. It's like a set of 11 questions or 11 ways to analyze as to what force was necessary at the time, hindsight being 20-20, objectively reasonable. So what ends up happening is that Graham v Conner was codified into 835 APC. So basically, the state of California is saying you need to consider Graham B Conner, which, by the way, we've been doing that since back in my days, 25 years, I mean.
Speaker 1:I thought about Graham B Conner way back in my days, you know. So I can't spell out all 11,. You know type of analysis, but something is along the lines of you know, hey, what was your stature, where were you standing? You know type of analysis, but something is along the lines of you know, hey, um, what was your stature? Where were you standing? You know, what did you? What? What led you to believe that this person was, uh, you know, getting ready to commit? You know, and and and, uh, uh, a felony, uh, or this person getting ready to pretty much uh, to, you know, to cause you harm. So all these, all these circumstances not and facts, these are facts. These are just not opinions, these are factual bases that you'll see in your body warm video where there is this analysis that people do on Granby Connor. No, any different than when they did with the Limeart case that happened. Oh gosh, you're taking me way back. I think Granby Connor happened what 15, 20 years ago?
Speaker 2:Probably more than that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's an old case.
Speaker 2:But the best part about it is that the use of force shall be judged from the perspective of the officer on scene. Correct.
Speaker 1:Yes. However, you know, and we, we can go through this whole lecture about 835 APC because, again, granby Connor is codified into 835 APC. However, that's just a little part of 835 APC. Then you have a Hayes v San Diego, which is your totality of the circumstances. Wow, so now what the state is saying okay, hector, check this out, everything that you actually did up until the point where you engaged wow, right into deadly force. We're gonna kind of judge you and see if, maybe, maybe, you could have done things different and if, if it's so substantial and if it's so egregious, chances are we might even fall on you. You know, yeah.
Speaker 2:I was like hey, I think, if I could have done something different, I would have done something different to prevent this fucking shooting. Exactly, I didn't wake up this morning wanting to shoot somebody.
Speaker 1:Right, 100%. So when you start thinking about de-escalation, when you start thinking about Graham v Conner this objective and reasonable standards, heisun v in 2020, you start thinking about totality, circumstances, right, hayes v San Diego, all these things that the state of California wants you to be educated enough to make that decision. When you engage, bro, you have less than two seconds to make that decision, absolutely. So that's part of the challenge which, by the way, if you're thinking about becoming a law enforcement officer, I will always say this You're not going to get enough training in your department. You need to get outside training. Of course, you can always go to Savage Training Group. We can talk about that later.
Speaker 2:However, I'm going to plug it right now, bro.
Speaker 1:Yeah, savage Training Group teach. I teach a three day internal affairs course for all you um are going to get promoted to sergeant and sergeants who are beginning their tour in internal affairs. Come see us for a three-day tour, a three-day investigative basic course, and we also have the two-day officer involved shooting course, which is the kind of things that we're talking about now, where we really dive deep and go down these rabbit holes about a 35 apc. So it's kind of hard to explain it all in one. Uh, I thank you for putting me on the spot about granby connor, because I didn't know I was going to talk about granby connor oh, bro, you gotta granby connor granby, connor is with that savage.
Speaker 2:Where can they reach out to you? Yeah?
Speaker 1:so, uh, savage 20 goodcom and we'll put all the stuff in the Cool definitely. You know. But yeah, man, it's a full plate of information that you definitely want to have. I think the biggest challenge in law enforcement now is that when you check the box right or it's a death by PowerPoint.
Speaker 2:Right, right, or it's a death by powerpoint right. How important is it for a police officer slash law enforcement officer to familiarize themselves with policy procedure law and and uh case law?
Speaker 1:oh, that's every day, man, you know what? Uh, look, I consider the uh 835 apc to be the bible. You have to know, man, look those days back in my days and in your days, when I thought of 835 APC, I thought about what, ooh, effect and arrest Right, overcome resistance Right and prevent an escape, right, shit, I'm good to go Right. Then, about 10 years after I came on because I came on in 1998, 1999, then came okay, okay, we're going to add a little bit more defense of others and defensive property. Okay, great, I think I know my shit and wrong.
Speaker 1:I'll show you a sheet that, uh, the briefing room jason lewis, the ceo, made up, where it is completely revamped. We already talked about the fact that what, uh, grand v connor is codified, haze v san diego, totalities, circumstances is codified. De-escalation is mentioned wow, in a35 apc that you might want. And then dealing with the mental illness, right, tactical disengagement. There is just a host of stuff. We haven't even gotten into the use of deadly force, which is a whole different conversation that we can have.
Speaker 1:So my point is is that you constantly have to read it, but don't read. Don't read it just to say, oh, I read it. Right, read it and discuss it with your partner and run scenarios. I really believe that if you're in a uh, even in in the prison environment, go have roll call and just grab a whole bunch of YouTube videos and just break stuff down, man, because you never know when it's going to happen, right, but it is going to happen, right. It's going to oh 100%. 100% is going to happen Absolutely, and I think that's super, super important. But yeah, that. And then, of course you know I'm being a little biased because I teach internal affairs your peace officers bill. Of course you know I'm being a little biased because I teach internal affairs your peace officers.
Speaker 2:Bill of rights. You know this POBAR is super important. Ooh holy shit, bro.
Speaker 1:There's so much to talk about. You know there's there's a saying that sometimes I shouldn't say sometimes in some agencies we won't mention many, but in some agencies, man, there are partners and colleagues that are more afraid that what happens in the inside, then actually getting involved in an OAS or in a use of force, and that's shitty, which is the reason why I decided to start this internal affairs a police podcast, because, look, if we're going to be transparent, you know what. We do a good job with the public, but we don't do it amongst ourselves. Correct? When is the last time you actually had a conversation about the shit that your fucking boss put you through, when, in reality, all you were trying to do is the right thing and you got?
Speaker 2:jammed up for it. Well, basically what it turns into is in-house bitching and moaning. That goes nowhere yeah. Right, absolutely it right it's actually like me and you are fucking actually taking a stand and doing something bigger than just bitching and moaning right.
Speaker 1:Not only that. And then what happens is is that when you do get faced with an internal affairs complaint uh, you know, people call it an ia. Uh, it's, it's a shitty feeling, oh, big time, dude, you know. And and then, guess what, you're not to talk about it. So now you're like what the fuck, bro, I can't go to my fucking, I can't even, no, you can't even talk about it. Facts, dude, so that that that you know. That just puts you in a whole different fucking level in the Island, all by yourself. Then you're ostracized. Maybe Right, but and all is.
Speaker 2:Oh shit, hector got an ia. You know what we're boys, but now I can't talk to you. Yeah, it's almost like a badge of honor. These days, man culture has changed, but, uh, I can imagine you sat in many a court rooms. Have you seen a lot of police officers get picked apart because they didn't know the law or policy? Welcome back, warriors. If you're a military veteran or law enforcement official and you're suffering from fatigue, erectile dysfunction, memory loss, there's probably a good chance that your testosterone levels are low. If they are, go to this website, hptrt for Human Performance. They're going to test your blood levels, your testosterone levels, ensure that you're at where you need to be for your age group. Put in the discount code Bravo and make sure you sign up. Thank you, and keep pushing forward Policy.
Speaker 1:I in the LAPD when I worked internal affairs, I was basically a prosecuting glorified attorney is what I was. I represented the chief of police and we went through this civil trial where it's a three panel member uh, traditionally it's two command staff officers and one civilian. That civilian is always a lawyer, for the most part okay, and uh officers were accused of some serious shit lying uh, perjury, uh, or just an off-duty incident that just you know a DUI where you lied, whatever you know just really egregious stuff.
Speaker 1:And so I've seen it and witnessed right, I should say I witnessed where internal affairs investigators they just didn't do the right thing. Man. Investigators they just didn't do the right thing, man, the quality of the investigation was just half baked, is what I like to describe it as. And so what ends up happening is is that you, that's where my mantra, where I really felt that you know what I'm going to give back to the next generation, and my mantra has always been no stone goes unturned. So even if it's the stupidest, like the craziest type of complaint that an officer is being alleged, you know what, do your best job to investigate that.
Speaker 1:And so what ends up happening to your point, is that hell, yeah, I watched IOs investigating officers get picked apart Like really dude. I had one where uh, an officer I'll never forget this, he was facing a false statement, lying Right, and uh the, and he was very proud, Like he had like a fucking attitude, like like fuck, yeah, you know, like I want you. You know, basically like kind of like a dick, like he, he needs to go because he was a liar, right he was the io.
Speaker 1:This is the investigating officer, it's his case, I got you. He framed that allegation of lying and so, uh, we're listening to all this. It's a whole bunch of bullshit about uh, he went through a divorce and ends up harassing some other woman, starts following, kind of like stalker type, yeah, behavior anyways. Uh, there was a situation where he had to go pick up his kids and basically where he was standing to pick up his kids was contradictory to where she said he was standing to pick up his kids, was contradictory to where she said he was standing to pick up the kids at the house. So what does he did? He decides to frame a false statement, like he lied about this, right. So here we are at the hearing, wow, and one of the board members actually used to be a lawyer, right. Which made it even worse. He was a captain, right? I'll never forget him, good dude.
Speaker 1:So he looks at D dio while he's sitting in the witness standing. He says okay, hey, let me ask you something. Do you know what the definition of a false or misleading statement is? Or special order? Here in lapd he's like uh, gotcha, you don't know. Here's what we're going to do. I want you to read it.
Speaker 1:So, department defense, go to introduce as an exhibit. You introduce it, I want you to read it, I want you to read a verbatim and once you're done reading it, let me know. Okay, so he does. So you done reading, he goes. Yes, yes, sir, he goes.
Speaker 1:Okay, cause here's the problem that I have is that you went out of your way to frame an allegation that he is lying. Now you have to remember that this particular allegation, it is so serious, so egregious that if we were to find him guilty, he's going to get removed, lose his career, practically turn his whole life upside down. So you better be damn sure that if we're going to be accusing him of lying, it better be a good fucking lie. And all it was was just the fact that there was this positioning where he says that he was standing and the accused says, no, that what I picked up my kids. My point is is that I understand that the burden of proof is preponderance. I understand it's more likely than not. I understand that it's 51, but when you start talking about, uh, alleging serious type of misconduct against any law enforcement officer, you better crank that shit up to 80 and you better have a hell of an amount of evidence to prove that you're actually lying.
Speaker 2:And so to me, that kind of gave me an idea that, like you know what, this is what gives I a now whatever I told you in the California department of correction to rehabilitation in the year 2022, 98, 90% of all internal affairs investigations are based on dishonesty, on frivolous, frivolous allegations.
Speaker 1:From my experience and perspective, right and, and I take it, no one challenged the allegation well, because the system is corrupt and I've been doing a good job of exposing that right yeah, what's your take on that that?
Speaker 1:that's how severe it is in the california department of corrections and rehabilitation I think it's going to take uh, having a platform like this and many, many more, to make administrators understand that if we're alleging that one of our subordinates is lying, it's got to be pretty serious. You can't just lie when you say, well, did you go to prison, cell number 20? Uh, but camera says you were number 23. You know what? I wasn't 23. Oh, you were lying no, that's it no you see? You see what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:So when you start talking about lying, it's you got to have malicious, malice, intent, malicious, yeah was going to say maybe, you know, you have to have like some really deceitful intentions, right, like I want to hide this shit. I'll give you one on one the one that I did where was an off duty officer who was involved in the traffic accident? Bro, he was. I mean, he was lit and he said that he had two, two shots of vodka, three ounces, at home. Uh, but then again, then he blows 22. Wow, okay, that's, that's lying, correct? Okay, that's pretty serious, especially when he caused injuries. When they ended up, you know, some of the victims and the parties had to go to the hospital. It was so, so bad.
Speaker 1:So there's a big difference. I think that's that old saying we do it to ourselves, we eat ourselves all the time. And in a prison environment it's even worse, because once you start accusing someone, you're fucked up and you're lying, then, really, and you expect them to come back to work, right, it's completely demoralizing. I don't think we understand it. And the only way that we're going to change this culture right, because it's more of a culture, oh for sure Is people listening and watching your platform, watching all these police platforms where we talk about having these conversations about what's right and what's wrong. Hey, listen, if you're a lieutenant in a correctional facility and chances are you're going to get promoted and you know that one of your colleagues, let's just say you don't even know him, let's just even say that you kind of don't even like him or he's got a bad reputation, but they're going to go and frame an allegation of dishonesty. Reputation, but they're going to go and frame an allegation of dishonesty. You should make very, very certain that that lie is pretty, pretty reckless. Right, it's got to be deceitful, not some chicken shit every day, type shit where you know.
Speaker 1:Oh, and, by the way, when you're an ION, this is what we teach also is that just because you give someone one bite of the apple to answer this question, don't just fucking move on to another set of questions and open up another door? No, right, be very certain and don't hide the ball. If you have evidence to tell that attorney or that rep, hey, listen, I'm going to ask him this. Here's what we got. Just want to make sure that you understand. You want to talk to your client. We'll be out in the room, you know. We'll come back when you guys are ready. That's the part that's missing. But the problem is is that it gets personal. I always say this it's self-serving and somewhere in the levels of review. You know I don't fucking like hector, it's all I don't like marley, so you know what?
Speaker 1:fucking? Just give him a five-day suspension. It's all personal. Yeah, it's personal, it's self-serving that is egotistical, narcissistic maniac yes, man, yes and that's why I resigned yes good for you.
Speaker 2:So how many years were you a police officer before you went into uh ia internal affairs?
Speaker 1:IA, internal Affairs, I made sergeant in 2007. Okay, so I did about nine, ten years as a police officer. Out of those nine and ten years and all my LAPD guys will laugh at this you know you didn't work the streets. You don't have any street cred because I worked the valley. You know I did my time in the streets, but you know, not hardcore, I mean, I didn't do 77 southwest, southeast, you know, rampart, anything like that. But I always felt, uh and this is just part of my personality, that I like to learn quickly, which I do and move on. That's the kind of you know, uh, I'm wired that way. When I actually get something okay, cool, I'll do it for like two or three years. You know what I'm wired that way. When I actually get something okay, cool, I'll do it for like two or three years. You know what I'm good. But the one thing that stuck to me the most is discipline.
Speaker 1:You know, I always felt this is the one topic that not many of us get to really discuss because it's very taboo not many of us get to really discuss because it's it's very taboo when you get into internal affairs.
Speaker 2:is it like a secret society amongst you guys? Is it very tight lipped and do they send you to all kinds of courses, investigative courses, right off the bat?
Speaker 1:No, well, I wouldn't say it's. You know some sorority, if you will, right it's, it's not. You are in a different building, you're not seen. But to be quite honest with you, a lot of people take this job because there's just flexibility with scheduling. It works for the family, so people don't really think about the actual job Really. Yeah, for the most part I can speak, for I don't know 80, 90% of my colleagues that decided to go into internal affairs, no different than me. Someone asked me hey, why'd you go internal affairs? That's a very good question because I thought I really thought hard about it. Uh, and a lot of my motivation was because I was a Sergeant one.
Speaker 1:And when you're a Sergeant One in LAPD, your goal is to get that rocker, which is a Sergeant Two. It's five and a half percent, and then you have four more steps. It's more money, right, but those Sergeant Two, that rocker, are hard to come by. You have an assistant watch commander at the station. To be a watch commander, that's a Sergeant Two spot. Vice Sergeant Two spot at the station. To be a watch commander, that's a sergeant two spot. Vice sergeant two spot. Commuter relations sergeant two spot. Uh, you want to go be the commander's aid, aka bitch. That's a two spot what do they do?
Speaker 1:drive their car around, they do all this secretarial work, scheduling, reviewing, preparing everything for the boss, right. So those are very. And then, of course, you have internal affairs. That's a rocker. So when there's openings, you know I get weekends off, you know, right, flex schedule, telecommute, it works. It works for people. So it's not like the movies and it's not like tv shows, but a lot of internal affairs investigators.
Speaker 1:And I'm going to be a little critical on, you know, my beloved LAPD. I really don't think that the actual internal affairs school and I guess I'm being biased because I teach it it's not what it's supposed to be. Number one, it's four days. You don't need four days. You don't need four days, you don't need four days. The state of California mandates, for whatever reason, 26 hours, which is three days. Okay, I'm sorry, 24 hours. So all you got to do is have three. And now we're competing with the big boys now at Savage Training Group, because now every sergeant that gets promoted to that rank in the state of California has to take a 24-hour basic certification investigative internal affairs investigation course. So come see us. And LAPD is good, but I feel that it's time to revisit the agenda and see what we can do.
Speaker 2:Different, because things are always changing, but the position of an internal affairs officer, isn't it not to investigate other officers? True.
Speaker 1:It's to investigate all complaints, all complaints, all complaints, public being the most popular. So you make, if you right now you and I are done with this podcast episode and we I don't know go to 7-Eleven and we see two dudes fighting and then all of a sudden they want to fight you and I and we come to find out they're off-duty LAPD officers, well, we're going to want to call, depending on the circumstances Just give an example that would be an off-duty incident so that would be handled by internal affairs. Internal affairs has an administrative section in a criminal section. They've been talking about merging and just having a one true internal affairs. But the majority of complaints I come from the public. In one year alone when I was there, we were averaging north of 3,000 a year.
Speaker 2:Now do you need a special type of blessing or certificate or license to be able to go after other cops? No, I would imagine there wouldn't be a peer-on-peer thing, right? Conflict of interest, or that's not a conflict of?
Speaker 1:interest. No, I mean, you know, sometimes what I will say is, if it's an employee and unemployee related type of alleged misconduct, you definitely have to as a lieutenant, right as the boss of that section of that unit, you have to be very cognizant as to who are we talking about. So let's just say you and I work Wilshire division, um, and we just got a job. Uh, both you and I work IA. And so we get a complaint from Wilshire division. Oh, okay, conflict of interest, right. And then we got to come out to our boss and say, hey, dude, you know what? Right, yeah, I just feel better if, if I don't, you know, conflict of interest only arises if you are a potential witness and or might end up being accused. That's where it's conflicting. But for you to investigate, I wouldn't say necessarily it's a conflict. I would just say that it's kind of shitty to investigate your own partner.
Speaker 2:So what are the two? You said witness and what's the other one? Subject Accused Witness and accused For CDCR. It's witness and subject You're either the witness or the subject of an investigation. Today's witness is tomorrow's subject. I love that, bro. No shit, dude, because people are like, oh, I'm only a witness. Oh, bro, we'll see, we'll see, we'll see, maybe tomorrow you won't be. Yeah, yeah, dude, wow. So did you initially like it when you took the role of ia man learning curve? Once you got past that learning curve, man, did you find your groove?
Speaker 1:yeah, well, I was at officer rep section. I defending cops, so what you guys call your union reps. We actually have a full-blown unit 11 of us, majority of us, were sergeants and so our job was to rep cops. When a cop will call ORS officer rep section, say, hey, I got this complaint got adjudicated, sustained. This is bullshit, I never did this. Okay, let's do an appeal. Let's do a skelly so of sustained. This is bullshit, I never did this. Okay, let's do an appeal, let's do a skelly so. That was. And we rolled out to all these ois's. Because what happens is is that if you're involved in an ois an officer involved shooting the attorney gets the big bucks for the shooting officer. Only guess who's left representing and going through the whole process of all the precipient witnesses, you guys, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I was at ors, I was officer rep section and I did an appeal of a police officer who had two sustained allegations. Uh, and we did the hearing and it got overturned. But when it got overturned by the hearing officer, to our favor, so they they became unfounded and so but it not binding, which means that the hearing officer, who was a commanding officer right, lapd, he was a captain he has to go to the chief and get him to sign. Wow, pretty much. Tell the chief. You know what we screwed up. Yeah, we should have never sustained these allegations and I did it.
Speaker 1:So in the seven years that Chief Bratton was at LAPD he only overturned three appeals and I was one of them. So the lieutenant at Internal Affairs really liked me, we kind of knew each other, yeah, and he goes hey, man, there's an opening to come right up here to the advocate section, not to investigate. Right up here, your whole job is to put on these border rights and these admin appeals, did you? And I put in for it. And that's when I got my rocker. Okay, I got my Sergeant Two spot. So the transition I made was from defending to actually prosecuting Cops, to prosecuting cops. But I started realizing that what I really had a major challenge with is the investigations, because they were bullshit they're fucking.
Speaker 1:Well, not only that, but think of it this way to be in the advocate section, as a sergeant representing the chief of police, to go to these border rights hearings. To go to these hearings yeah, the hearing's been in existence for decades Right, right In the LAPD we're the only agency that does it throughout the United States as a platform, all right, or a stage to prosecute you for serious, serious misconduct. Right Lying, perjury, right DV.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, just real bad stuff.
Speaker 2:Something to get you fired from the job.
Speaker 1:Someone's going to get you fired, yeah exactly, but you know what it got watered down. It got watered down to where someone again gets personal right, believes all this person's fucking lying sent him to a board.
Speaker 1:So, as an advocate, you're putting this thing on and you're like dude, we don't even have 51. So the point that I want to drive to your audiences is that and whoever you are, one day you're going to end up being an adjudicator is really take the time. Take the time to read and take the time to listen to everything. Don't just depend on the paraphrase statement and don't depend on the IO. Don't depend on that Lieutenant presenting that case to you saying, well, yeah, you know what they did a, b and C, we're good to go. No, you know what? Hey, thanks for briefing me. I'll get back to you in a day or two and just sit there If you really feel you have a hunch, especially when we start talking about serious misconduct. You know what? Take the time to really review everything with a fine-tooth comb.
Speaker 2:Now I'm curious to know from your perspective your perspective, man what is the reasoning and motive behind those shitty investigations. Is it a incompetence, b, a laziness or c vindictiveness? And they're trying to uh, I was gonna maybe promote, maybe step on somebody else to climb up the chain of command I would say all of the above would see not being so prominent wow, and c is prominent cdcr. It's kind of I'm glad we're having this conversation. Yeah.
Speaker 1:A for sure Incompetence? Yeah, of course the fuck, bro. What kind of investigator are you? There's a reason why homicide detectives work force investigation, fid right. So in other words, you want experienced robbery and homicide detectives working the shooting team Right?
Speaker 2:Wouldn't you? Yeah, so how do they get in those positions?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, you've got to have that experience. Nepotism, of course, some people are voluntold.
Speaker 2:Well, don't hold back, bro. I want to hear the juicy.
Speaker 1:I'll give you the juice, bro, I've taught all up and down Northern California. There's some sergeants are like, especially in small departments, are like, hey, man, you're going to, you're going to IA next month. You're like, well, what, I don't want to go to IA. There's people don't even want to go to IA. So when you work for a big organization, you're cool, public sector yeah, you can kind of work your way.
Speaker 1:You know, if you work like Los Angeleseles sheriff, san diego, san bernardino, you know, riverside, you got cushion to go hide somewhere, yeah, but fucking, hey, bro, you work at a small agency. Uh, that sergeant's retiring, you're next and you're like whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, wait, hold the phone, bro, I don't fucking do this. So, um, the fact of the matter is to be competent. We're not asking you to, you know, fucking figure out pi equals 3.14. No, it's not that shit. Right, it's not chemist, you know Correct Space X type shit. But my point is you have to be willing and able to learn how to investigate and to follow every single stone that's there, and what happens is people take shortcuts to your point b, so you get fucking lazy take shortcuts at your fucking uh, at your expense.
Speaker 1:Yes, because then as you get shit canned as the employee you and I were talking about that one, uh, about your ia with your lor, you know oh my god, we can use hold on a second.
Speaker 1:I don't think that we can use, uh, these video surveillance cameras to fucking jam that dude up. But my point is is that and I know the majority of your audience is cdcr let's just say, for example, there is a use of force, uh, at a block in new york, somewhere right, and your sergeant uh, uh, depicts and time stamps, hey, from 22, 23 to 25, 38 is where it happened, right, you know what, thank you. But if I were, you fuck that. I'm watching the whole thing, you know. Just, we went through that. You know, you see what I'm saying. That's part of being thorough, that's part of being you know what?
Speaker 2:I'll take you one step further, though. Man, we went through that when we initially got the body-worn camera and the AVSS and our administrators they're like, nah, let's watch the whole tape. And oh, look, while they're in the break room and they said a cuss word, let's write them up for saying that cuss word in the break room.
Speaker 1:And that's where we're at, that's where that department is at Right, so that happened to an LAPD where there was the same thing Use of force, I shouldn't say they. The sergeant itself reviewed that timestamp what actually happened.
Speaker 1:But then it keeps going and then he flips them off or he says something like well, the only reason why you pulled me over was because I'm black, something like that. Right, yeah. And so two weeks later he decides to come in, uh, to make a complaint. And so now, right, that they review the whole thing. Now it's a bureau, so it's in the next level. Wow. So they're saying well, we have an expectation for you to review the whole thing and you should have caught that. So therefore, we're going to give an ia.
Speaker 1:So our response was it's such a mess. Hold on a second. That response is great, that's fine, I know, but show me in the body warm video policy. Right, that says that. Number one, I have to watch the whole thing, right. Two, that we're going on a fishing expedition. That's not what it's meant for, right? There's a big difference between policy and expectations. I like that. I can care less about what you expect. I fucking expect tomorrow to win the lottery and I'm going to go buy me a fucking Porsche. Absolutely Okay, I expect that to happen. But that's not policy Correct. So let's just stay Okay. And, sir, if you allow me, I'll go talk to him about him cussing Right. Tactical foul language. Call it what you want, correct? Hey, you know, hector, next time dude, just you know. But Sarge, you know, ld, he was fucking me up, okay, great, but you know just tone it down a little.
Speaker 2:That easy man, that easy man.
Speaker 1:And then we're done, but yeah, that happens a lot.
Speaker 2:What is Peace Officer? Bill of Rights.
Speaker 1:Paul Barr back in 1971, in the 70s, the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department and the Los Angeles Police Department got together and said you know what? They went to Governor Brown Back then. They said hey, man, we need protection because we're doing it to ourselves. Cops, we're just fucking our shit up, not the public Amongst us, shit like we're talking about, right, you know? Oh, you know what You're fucking lying to me. Let's go in a room and here comes three sergeants and a lieutenant and you're sitting there and they're just fucking peppering you with questions, correct? You know? Well, hold on a second. You know this. Slow down, you know. And so what ends up happening is there was a lot of accusations about cops, uh, doing a whole bunch of stuff.
Speaker 2:That's wrong interrog Interrogations pretty much Unethical, unethical.
Speaker 1:And there was just no boundaries, there was no rules as to how officers should be investigated, how officers should be interrogated and how officers should be treated with internal affairs. So that was the rise of Peace Officers Bill of Rights, and it's been uh, it's been quite a ride. I mean, we're what uh 40? Yeah, we're no, we're uh 40 50 years in now. Is that law that is? So? Those are it's government code 3300, government code 3300. In the lot in the california government code it's 3300. So you have 33, have 3,300 to 3,313. Okay, this is the shittiest part about teaching.
Speaker 2:No, I love it, bro. This is what's going to keep you employed.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, 3,300 is just a definition, right? 3,303 is A through J and A through J. A lot of those A subsections got another 1, 2, 3. Okay, so it's a fucking boatload. Then you have 3304, which is your statute of limitations, and then from 3305 all the way to 3313. So it's a heavy load. That guess what man? Not many cops know. They don't know, they don't know, they don't know. It's sort of class, even though it's the majority are sergeants or people are getting ready to promote, to be to be sergeants. We also invite uh officers because they also need to know, especially you get involved in a critical incident. I mean you need to know you're, you know so two-part question?
Speaker 2:yes, what happens like what actually happens and what should happen when an ia officer violates a cop's?
Speaker 1:pull bar right. Well, there's a couple of things that you have. Uh, you have an option. One is to uh, obviously raise it and bring it up to the attention of the department, which they're probably going to ignore it, because they're the IA investigator, they're supposed to know everything. Right, it is a $25,000 federal claim that you can bring to a federal court.
Speaker 2:Oh really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so each pull bar violations. It's up to $25,000. Now the burden to prove that gets a little tricky, you know, because we have to know which one it is, you know, and we have to really have a compelling reason as to why the sergeant from Internal Affairs, or whoever it doesn't necessarily have to be the sergeant, it can even be your captain, right, you getting called in, right, you know, and getting talked about, exactly, you know. Well, I want to talk about what happened yesterday when you were at 7-Eleven with Marlon. Do I need representation? No, you don't. You need to answer my questions. I don't know. Captain, it kind of sounds like you're accusing me of stuff. Yeah, I need to know what happened at 7-Eleven yesterday. You know you're whoa, whoa, whoa. I need representation. So it's not necessarily the point to that example is it's not just the investigating officer in internal affairs. It can be you getting brought in to get talked to by your captain and he or she is just fucking.
Speaker 2:I've seen that lead to termination. A captain called in an officer and said hey, buddy, just tell me what happened. Yeah, no. So what advice do you have to the viewers of your captain?
Speaker 1:I got you. I got you. There. You go, man, help these fucking kids out. Let me help you out.
Speaker 1:There's only two reasons why you're going to get summoned to the captain's office. All right, reason number one will be performance, okay, performance, okay. So you need to. When the Lieutenant or the Sergeant says, hey, uh, officer Marachi, the captain needs to see you, your first question should be what does he or she need to see me for? Uh, well, you know what We'll tell you when you get there.
Speaker 1:Hold on a second, make it, make it easy. Go ahead and throw the fishbowl out there. Is it a performance issue or is it a? Is it a counseling or is it performance? Which one is it?
Speaker 1:Oh, we're going to talk about your job and your performance. Not a problem, I'll be there in five minutes, right, you got to talk about you know? Hey, you can't show up late. Uh, you're doing this, you're doing that, you're doing that. You know, stop screwing around at the break room, whatever. Those are all performance-based, right?
Speaker 1:I always got a kick out of, like when they say well, you know, you work 12 hours and you only done like three traffic stops, okay, so what are you telling me? Right, you know what I mean. Okay, because everybody else is doing fucking 15. Does it mean that I got to do 15? That's a whole different conversation. But if you get brought in, and even if they say, yeah, it's for your performance, and the minute he or she starts talking to you about you know what? Were you at 7-eleven the other day? And you, you saw uh, this, uh unit black, white, throw someone up against the wall, time out. So what kind of questions are you asking me? Well, we're asking you if you saw this. Well, are you accusing me? No, you're just a witness. Still, I don't want to talk to you Now if they start talking to you about something that happened at work where you know it's alleged misconduct. This is why it's so important that you need to know what misconduct is absolutely.
Speaker 2:If you don't even know what it is, you need to know the rules so you can break the rules.
Speaker 1:That's what I always say, bro, yeah yeah, exactly, if you're accusing me of breaking the rules, I kind of got to know the rules right too, and if you're going to talk to me about me breaking the rules, I need to have representation, because that's what Peace Officers' Bill of Rights allows me to have, and so it happens all the time, I'm sure in your environment people get called up and they start, you know.
Speaker 2:What.
Speaker 1:I would do if I were you is I would definitely bring a recorder. And if they said well, we don't want you to record this.
Speaker 2:well, what's your experience with insubordination? Or let's say, the? The captain threatens I mean, I've seen, I've seen some off the wall, shit bro, yeah. And says, hey, man, if you don't talk to me, you're being insubordinate.
Speaker 1:No, insubordination has got to be a lawful order amongst the a high ranking uh individual to a lower ranking individual. It's got to be an order. It's got to be something related to your essential job functions of an order. I am ordering you to do this. I like that. I am ordering you to go here Right or I am ordering you to leave Right, and if you violate that order, that's when you are open for grounds of insubordination.
Speaker 2:Wow bro, I love this dude. I don't know why. I just love dissecting it yeah, this is great, yeah for sure, dude. So part of being IA, man 2024, YouTube, instagram we see a police shooting every day, literally, and you dissect them on your channel. Yeah, what is the process, man? Because we what we see? We see the officer engaging. Sometimes they flip out or you know they, they, they're adrenaline. We see the adrenaline dump, man. Yeah, what is the process? You get a phone call to ia, yeah, yeah, you'll be uh.
Speaker 1:If you're uh, you'll be on call. You'll be on call. You'll be on call. You'll be on call. You'll be on call. And uh, with LAPD, we have, um, uh, a communication center they used to call it racer, uh where they actually you have to make notifications. Once the notifications are out, your phone's going to ring, and who makes the?
Speaker 2:notification the watch commander.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, for the the most part, if you're the sergeant at scene, okay, uh, you got a lot of shit going on. So, for whatever reason you might, you're going to call the watch command. I'm going to say probably, the majority of time it's probably going to be the watch commander. Who's the?
Speaker 2:busiest. Who's the busiest? The sergeant on scene? Oh yeah, who's doing the most man? What are they doing?
Speaker 1:well, you got all these plates spinning because okay hold on hold on a second, all right, so shooting just went down.
Speaker 1:First of all, how many people shoot? Where are my shooting officers? Those two right there? Okay, not only do. Okay, you guys can't talk. I got to separate and monitor you, right. I got to call other sergeants at scene. Look, now I need to separate them. Okay, but hold on a second. I got to do the PSS, I got to do the public safety statement, so I got to take you over here Meanwhile. You know what? Fuck, I don't know. Tell me, is the suspect still here? They're outstanding. So there's so much going on. And at the same time, you got to make notifications to the watch commander and you got to start setting up a perimeter. Up a perimeter. You got victims yelling. You got victims, you got sirens down.
Speaker 1:One of the things about the pss, public safety statement is which direction did you actually shoot your weapon? And if you say, well, I started in the northeastern direction and there has to be an apartment complex, you know what? Stand by, hold on, don't be robotic and say I gotta ask you these nine questions. No, just say hold on, and you gotta go and check and see if they're, you know where the bullets landed, or if there's any other victims or you know if someone needs aid, whatever the case may be. So that first charge in that scene has a lot going on. And, man, if you work at a small agency and it's late at night which the majority of IS has happened at nighttime, man, it's going to be a while before. How many hours before they get to go home.
Speaker 2:Oh, I mean, man, it's gonna be a while before how many hours before they get to go home.
Speaker 1:Oh, I mean, it's, it's an all-nighter, bro, it's an all-nighter. My point is is that if you're a small agency and you only have one sergeant out in the field and there's an ois, the sergeant arrives at scene, he or she has to declare themselves to be the incident commander. Okay, right now you have command and control. What's going on? Well, fucking a do. Whoever else is coming might not be close. You know, the watch commander can't leave because he's got to stay, so you might have to get the neighboring agency to come help out. So my point is is that it can get a little complex, but the first sergeant at scene has a lot of duties and responsibilities to go by. We teach all that in the course.
Speaker 2:Nice. Who makes the determination to collapse the crime scene when it's all over?
Speaker 1:Internal Affairs will do that. Lapd, it's Force Investigation Division Once it's a code for where they gather all the evidence. They pretty much walk through the whole scene and did the um. I wouldn't even say bare minimum. I would say they did a really good job with preserving everything that's at scene. Uh, then they'll call it off, but it's definitely an all-nighter man answer this question for me, man, because I it.
Speaker 2:It may be the public right, because it's not just law enforcement officers that watch this show, it's every, every walk of life, man. Why does it seem that every time a officer gets shot and or killed in the line of duty, they will turn over every stone right, a helicopter this is a serious question and just go block by block right, as opposed to just maybe a regular civilian getting killed? Is that a, or do they utilize more resource?
Speaker 1:No, well, to your point about having an airship, that would be— Anything, yeah, of course, of course. Barricaded suspect. You know, you're going to get an airship. Burger 459 Progress. You're going to get an airship. Okay, 211 just occurred. Fuck, going to get an airship. A burger for fun. Out in progress. You're going to get an airship. Okay, 211, just occurred. Fuck, let's get an airship. Nice, you have that luxury and that resource, like we do in lepd, you can have it. Uh, even, uh, let's just say uh, home invasion, robbery.
Speaker 1:You show up, people are tied up and taped up yeah and you just happen to get there within minutes, get an airship and set up a perimeter. So it's not because it's just us when we go to the ois. Uh yeah, those resources are there for whether it's an ois officer involved shooting or just a regular shooting if you can remember what is taught or trained is.
Speaker 2:I've seen, seen the shootings man, because again, this is just what I watch. They say shots fired, shots fired, blah, blah, blah. Is that a training protocol? And what does that mean? Does that mean that they got shot at? Are you always confused, or what's your take on that? That's a good point.
Speaker 1:You know we teach that in class too. You bring up a very, very good point what is shots fired? Right, you get on the air shots fired, shots fired, shots fired. What does that mean to you? Yeah, right, you and I are in uniform, we're working right now and we're, you know, fucking eating tacos and shit. And next thing, you know, you hear, you know, shots fired, shots fired. Okay, is it that you think you heard like gunshot fire? It could be right, could be right, or are you being shot at? Or did you shoot right or did you see like a drive-by? So it can mean a lot right. And so the at least in my experience officer needs help.
Speaker 1:Officer needs help means pretty much an ois for the most part. I don't want that to be, uh, you know, completely conclusive to just an ois, but for the most part, if you're involved in ois, you're going to hear over. The radio option itself often needs help, and then everybody's coming. So to your point. You have to be pretty clear with uh, what do we actually mean by shots fired? We in class actually play on the screen, we actually play just a radio frequency, just a sound bite, where it says exactly what you say shots fired, shots fired. And so then we ask the class okay, you know what, discuss it amongst yourselves, okay, and tell me what does it mean to you? Because I've always had that problem too. You don't know that, right, something can sound like a gunshot, right, we don't know that. So, yeah, you have to be very clear with what you're saying over the air. But for the most part, if it is going to be an OIS, my suggestion is, if you're listening, whatever your protocol is for us, it's officer needs help.
Speaker 2:How common are those calls that come over the radio man, like I'm telling you, you it seems almost weekly now. I mean I don't know if you're seeing the same thing I'm seeing out on the news, but is it that common?
Speaker 1:yeah, the problem is is that we have social media now we have access to I mean right shit police activities right.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a fucking excellent youtube channel.
Speaker 1:I know shout out to police activity yeah they're real good at what they do.
Speaker 1:I'm with you. I talk to myself damn, there's that many OISs, right? What I will say is, in terms of dynamics, from my experience, south Los Angeles is definitely more violent and you'll see, on a Friday or Saturday night, gang on gang shootings, but OISs, no, I mean one year alone. This might be a lot, but when I was there in 2017, 100. 101 year, that's a lot. That is a lot, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you compare that to 8,000, 9,000-plus sworn officers in LAPD, with the amount of radio calls that we get. We're talking about a very small fraction of the population, but it's a lot. Another one would be it's a good example is shout out to Josh Coleman, who used to work for Vallejo, which I didn't know was considered one of the most violent cities. Really. Yes, in California there was like six OISs in like less than a year in a small town and apparently in Vallejo, which is up north. It's a city where all crimes are being committed by the actual community member and residents that actually live there, as opposed to you know other cities where people come in and commit crimes From your experience you hear that there's a hundred officer-involved shootings in a city in a year.
Speaker 2:From your experience, what is the cause of that? Let's say I'm the governor of california and I want to know hey, uh, marlin, why am I having so many officer involved shootings here? What would be the answer from your experience?
Speaker 1:well, it's, it's, it's. It's not an easy answer, uh, or a short one. Well, well, I would say to the governor is, um, a lot of the decision-making that officers, uh are doing when it's time to engage probably has to do with uh not being educated one, two not being trained, um, but for the most part, who are we to judge? Uh them making a decision in less than two seconds? Would you want it to be reduced? Probably, which? Again, we have all these things codified into 835 APC. I mean, it's a good question. It's just kind of hard to answer, because how do you reduce OISs is how do you reduce OISs? Because it goes to what you were saying earlier about hesitancy. I don't want you to hesitate, correct, just because you make a decision in which, in your mind, in your perception, from your lens, you thought it was the right thing to do. So how do I get you to think that, well, what you were actually thinking at the time was not right? And I don't think that we more.
Speaker 2:So what I was trying to get at was hey, maybe is there a rise in crime, maybe the criminals are out of control and maybe that's a contributing factor, because we can want to stop officer-involved shootings all day long however, if cops are, getting shot at. They have to defend their lives 100%.
Speaker 1:I mean, crime can be in an uptick, you know, to the point where it's probably the highest in years, right? And I just don't know if the uptick in crime or, you know, crime in it itself right, Because it's more of a societal issue right has to do with trying to reduce OASs, Could be. I mean, you bring up a good point and I'm thinking about it right now, just off the shoulder, maybe like Prop 47, for example, right, Right, so you got Prop 47, which allows all these AB 109? Yeah, you got AB 109, which you allowed all these low-level misdemeanor people out. They got to get their fix. So, yeah, they're going to go and commit crimes. You have a weapon. You show up. Chances are you might engage in deadly force.
Speaker 1:Now, if we're going to do the new Prop 36, where you're not getting out, yeah, there could be a slight reduction of officer-involved shootings, but I don't think that we, even myself including, have any right to be coming up to someone and judging you and saying that you know what you shouldn't have done, that this is what you should have done. That's why I hate and I want to be clear. Yeah, I agree, I've done breakdowns and I got to be honest with you. I don't really like doing OISs because I try to stay away from them. I really really do. I feel you try to stay away from them. I really really do. I feel you, Because I'm nobody to pass any scrutiny or any judgment on what you actually did that day, Right, and so I try to be very, very careful with you know the department that I am breaking down, so I try to do all the all the other stuff Now, with that being said, could we learn?
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, no, it's a great learning tool, absolutely 100%, absolutely.
Speaker 1:But it's a shitty position to be in when you're telling someone you know you could have done different. I just don't see that being a.
Speaker 2:What kind of stress goes through a police officer's mind, body and soul after an officer-involved shooting?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you know what? I was fortunate to roll out to these to talk to these officers. I was also fortunate to bring in 12 guests for this show called Details, that we finally got one up and we reenacted one of the scenes and thank God, it's going to be released, hopefully in the next month or so. But we get to ask all the questions to the guest that was involved in OIS that internal affairs didn't ask. Okay, I get to ask you questions like hey, hector, at the time that you actually engaged, what were you thinking? What was going through your mind? Um, I get to ask you, hey, when you went home while you were there, you just call your wife, did you call your family? What'd you tell your kids when you came back to work? What was that like? Didn't you have to see a psychologist to get clear before you know? Uh, you came back to work. Yes, let me tell you what that was all about.
Speaker 1:But, more importantly, what was the outcome? What did the department do? Was this an in-policy shooting or was it out of policy? Did you get jammed up for it or not? And that's what always bothered me, which is the reason why it motivated me to do this show called Details. The breakdown is because we're only half transparent with the public. You know the outrage, oh my God you guys. You know cops are, you know corrupting, police brutality.
Speaker 1:You shouldn't have shot my son.
Speaker 1:You shouldn't have shot my loved one, but three months go by, you can care less, right, you know. So I always felt that we need to be completely transparent and have these conversations with officers that were actually involved. What I can tell you from my experience of my guests because I've never been involved in OIS is that it seems as though that everything really slows down, and so there's this forced science method that officers start to realize what's going on around them. And, uh, that's why dr lewinsky, guys like um jamie borden, who have that critical incident, they really study and they really go deep into the reaction. You, as it relates to your central nervous system, to the point that actually gets to your eye, to the point where actually, yeah, it's like being in combat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you, yeah, you know this very well, but I got to tell you, man, that is, um, that is something that I would not want to live with for the rest of my life, not want to live with for the rest of my life. And I say that because there is no winning, nobody wins. When there is a fatality, it's a tragedy for all the community loses, the department suffers and everybody around you, your colleagues, Even the victim of the shooting man.
Speaker 2:Ain't nobody trying to take your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, you know there's. You know, come to point is I just did a breakdown of it happened in Florida male, black, it was just a disturbance call, that's all it was, and it ended up being an OIS, and in the body warm video, you see the officer just get so, so emotional, saying I didn't want this to happen, I didn't want this, I did not want this to happen. Why did I have to get to this, you know? And so those are just things where you just I think I've seen that one, yeah, the one, though, is in his front lawn yeah, he's a big lawn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's big dude, yeah, big dude if you uh come to this, gonna get hot in this bitch yep yeah, he said that my arms are the weapons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my arms are the weapons. My hands are the weapons. I am the weapon.
Speaker 1:Yes, and everything that is a classic. Let's try de-escalation to a spit. We did OC spray. They even beanbagged them. Yeah, they tased them, they beanbagged them.
Speaker 2:They tased them twice.
Speaker 1:They try to take him down. They did everything possible. And then what happens? Is the donut operator right? Because that's the dude. Yeah, shout out to the donut operator. He actually shows in slow motion when the suspect reaches and lunges to the officer, and of course he has to back up and engage.
Speaker 1:And so I did it. I hesitated, but I did it. And I did it more so because I wanted the audience to know that, look, nobody wins here. That's my message. The other message is is that let's not ostracize and let's not have this officer punish him for going through this whole process. He might be facing criminal charges. We don't even know that and let's just say those are completely denied. Now he's going to go through the administrative process. Don't leave him in the alley and in the island all by himself and walk that. Walk up until the point it gets adjudicated administratively. And those are the things that I think we need to really educate. And that's where I come in and kind of give you that where. Hey, man, you know what? Who are we to judge? That happened like that and it was a disturbance call, so cool.
Speaker 2:Those are really important stuff oh, dude, thank you for coming. Bro, we're gonna have to do multiple parts, man, there's just so much to unpack here. Dude, let's do a series, man, definitely, bro. So yeah, we're gonna be working on something together in the near future.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely want to get us locally here. Uh, you know, do some east coast, west Coast stuff where we can all get in a room and start talking about what I really would like to do as much as I wanted to stay away from politics, right, I think I. I think we owe it to our community of law enforcement about the challenges that we've had up until 2024. And now that a new administration is coming in, what is police functions or work going to look like in the future? And yeah, man, you know, pretty excited bro.
Speaker 2:So tell our viewers where they can find you all over the web, bro.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you know, I had to go out and kind of brand myself I'm the IA guy. So if you look at the IA guy, I changed the YouTube channel to the IA guy because not only was I doing internal affairs guests coming in and telling a story but then I realized that I had some capers right. Tell me about a crazy caper. You got involved Wild one pursuit, heroic type of incident. I think we owe that to the public as well. And then what I started doing is breakdown. So I had to brand myself. So look me up at the IA guy at the YouTube channel. I'm starting to build my X. I was just told X premium is the way to go.
Speaker 2:That's what somebody told me too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's do X. So I am definitely on X From me, known as Twitter, and of course, you can look me up at it See I guy podcast on Instagram, bro, and I'm really thankful for for doing this. You are, you're knocking it out, man, and ever since I met you, I've realized that there really isn't much of a voice of CDCR, isn't much of a voice of cdcr. I can tell you that there, there's a lot of people out there who are misinformed. Yeah, they're not well educated about the culture and the things that happen, but just know that what? Uh, because I knew, I knew when you're going to come on, I go. This guy's got to have an eye story because there's just a lot, oh, so many dude.
Speaker 1:There's a lot that happens inside that we need to know, uh, and, and I think we owe it to the next generation. So thanks for having me, bro. Thanks, dude.
Speaker 2:Thank you for coming down. Wow, there you guys have it, folks. Another banger man. We're bringing you guys the wisdom, the knowledge and the education man. These are lessons you can't get anywhere else, man, straight from the source. So thank you guys for watching. Make sure you hit that subscribe button. Love you guys. Keep pushing forward.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Hector Bravo Unhinged. Follow for more.
