Behind the Bars: Life as a Female Correctional Officer

Former correctional deputy Kelly shares her journey from San Jose to San Luis Obispo County jail, revealing the challenges and realities of working in corrections during significant policy changes. Her candid account provides insight into the demands of maintaining order and safety within county facilities while navigating political pressures and system-wide transformations.

• Command presence and communication skills are vital for correctional officers regardless of physical size
• AB-109 dramatically changed county jails by transferring state prisoners to facilities not designed for long-term incarceration
• Overcrowding led to unsafe conditions with inmates sleeping on floors and classification officers constantly struggling to maintain standards
• The psychological toll of working with inmates at their worst requires strong boundaries and mental health awareness
• Political pressure and changing attitudes toward law enforcement created an environment where officers feared consequences for doing their jobs as trained
• Setting appropriate boundaries with inmates is crucial, especially for female officers
• Making physical and mental health a priority is essential for surviving a career in corrections
• The decision to leave the profession came after COVID protocols compounded existing challenges

Transcript

Introduction to Former Correctional Deputy Kelly

Speaker 1 0:01

Hector Bravo. Unhinged Chaos is now in session.

Speaker 2 0:11

Welcome back Warriors. Another banger for you guys. Today I have a female correctional former correctional deputy from San Luis Obispo County, slo, by the name of Kelly Kelly. What up?

Speaker 3 0:24

Hey, how's it going.

Speaker 2 0:25

Pretty good. Thank you for flying all the way out here to San Diego.

Speaker 3 0:28

Absolutely Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 0:29

Thanks, how was your trip Good?

Speaker 3 0:31

Yeah, easy. Easy A little delay, a little couple hour delay this morning, but you know, made it.

Speaker 2 0:36

Cool. No, I'm really glad you're here. So where did you grow up at?

Speaker 3 0:41

So I grew up in San Jose, California.

Speaker 2 0:44

Definitely not San Luis, definitely not slow.

Speaker 3 0:52

No, it's not.

Speaker 2 0:52

I was born and raised in San Jose, California and moved to San Luis Obispo in my early twenties. Did you ever go to Paramount Great America? Yes, I did. Yeah, I went there one time as a kid. Is it still open?

Speaker 3 1:00

I believe yeah, yeah, cause I went there not that long ago Like. I mean within, like the last 10 years, I think.

Speaker 2 1:04

You should take my daughter.

Speaker 3 1:05

Yeah, it's my favorite. It's one of my favorite places.

Speaker 2 1:08

When you went down to SLO, were you going to college or what was the purpose of going down there?

Speaker 3 1:14

Actually funny is I moved with a boyfriend who got hired at CMC.

Speaker 2 1:19

He was a CO.

Speaker 3 1:21

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 1:22

Was he your boyfriend before or after he was a CO.

Speaker 3 1:25

Like during when he was getting-.

Speaker 2 1:26

During the process.

Speaker 3 1:27

Yeah, when he was getting hired, yeah, Was he from SLO as well? Or he just ended up there. No, he just ended up there.

Speaker 2 1:33

Okay, and you guys moved in with each other.

Speaker 3 1:36

Yes.

Speaker 2 1:37

That's always interesting.

Speaker 3 1:38

Yes, but I wasn't working at the jail at that time yet, so it wasn't until later that I got hired.

Speaker 2 1:44

But earlier you were telling me your father was in law enforcement. Who else was in your family?

Speaker 3 1:51

My stepmom was also. My father was a patrol deputy for Santa Clara County and my stepmom worked for the Department of Corrections, which used to run the jails for Santa Clara County a long time ago.

Speaker 2 2:04

She worked for the California Department of Corrections.

Speaker 3 2:06

No, it was DOC, it was Department of Corrections, for I think that's what they called it. It was like a separate entity Like Santa Clara County used to run their own you know their own people ran the jail. Then later on, I think, they contracted out. It wasn't private, but they yeah.

Speaker 2 2:20

That's all Northern California to me. Yes. At what point in time did you realize that you would eventually join law enforcement yourself?

Speaker 3 2:30

I wanted to be in law enforcement. Probably in my late teenage years. I was a bit of a wild child, weren't we all. So I mean I could have very easily ended up on the other side.

Speaker 2 2:44

Let's put it that way.

Speaker 3 2:45

And I think sometimes we make the best people in law enforcement.

Speaker 2 2:48

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 2:50

So, but I always wanted to be in law enforcement. I actually wanted to be a street officer, but back then when I originally was applying, it was very competitive, like extremely competitive.

Speaker 2 3:05

Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 3:06

Huge turnouts of people. I mean I tested all over Northern California several different agencies and I mean it was very competitive.

Speaker 2 3:16

How far were you getting into those processes like your interviews, your background investigations?

Speaker 3 3:20

Yeah, it just depended. I mean, I always passed the written, always passed the physical. Just sometimes the interviews and stuff didn't go too well. I didn't know how to play the game, you know because I was young. You know, I get it. And so I didn't know how to play the game Once I started, you know failing.

Speaker 2 3:39

I wouldn't call it failing yeah.

Speaker 3 3:40

But, I hear what you're saying I learned how to play the game.

Speaker 2 3:44

Pretty much how to tell them what they want to hear.

Speaker 3 3:46

Exactly.

Speaker 2 3:47

Right.

Speaker 3 3:47

Exactly A hundred percent.

Speaker 2 3:49

Funny story Because I interviewed for Parole Agent like three times I said yeah, I'm going to be out there catching bad guys, tackling motherfuckers.

Speaker 3 3:55

They're like we don't want you, we don't need you and you can see by who they hire.

Speaker 2 4:09

So was.

Speaker 3 4:10

Slow County, the first one that you got all the way through it, the process, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 4:12

And what year was that? 1998 1998, different time. Back then it was very different time probably britney spears and sink backstreet boys.

Speaker 3 4:21

I don't don't know about Bernie. That was a freshman in high school.

Speaker 2 4:24

Thanks, so did you go to an academy?

Speaker 3 4:33

So it's very interesting the way that they do it there. They don't send you to the academy right away, and they have. I have done an in-house academy, they did in-house academy. It's not like CDCR.

Speaker 2 4:52

I like the emphasis on the R.

Speaker 3 4:55

It's not like where you go and I can't remember your guys' academy is pretty long.

Speaker 2 4:58

It was in Gall, yeah, yeah, it's Gall, usually Six weeks, 13 weeks or 16 weeks.

Speaker 3 5:03

Yeah, I think it's like four months. So ours is like I think it's like four months.

Speaker 3 5:05

So ours is like I think it's about I want to say six weeks maybe but in-house it's in-house, but they don't put you in it right away unless they have an academy set up so you could be on the job. I think they have to. They have to put you through the academy within a year don't quote me on that, but I think it's a. It's either six months or a year, yeah, so you could be on the job for almost a year before you ever even go to the academy. So you're getting trained by your senior correctional deputies.

Speaker 2 5:36

At what point in time, or during this point in time, what kind of use of force options do you have?

Speaker 3 5:41

When I first started, all we had was handcuffs, handcuffs, handcuffs.

Speaker 2 5:46

A radio.

Speaker 3 5:47

Oh, yeah, well, yeah, yeah, radio handcuffs. Yeah, we didn't have. Basically only if you're doing transportation.

Speaker 2 5:55

Pepper spray, handcuffs.

Growing Up and Entering Law Enforcement

Speaker 3 5:59

I don't remember pepper spray back then Handcuffs and 50 cuffs. Yeah, and just and just. You know you're verbal right, you know that was, that was how you de-escalated.

Speaker 2 6:08

I mean, you know you, you got skilled at, you know, learning how to talk to people so I asked that question because usually the whole point of an academy so they can train you on those use of force options, chemical agents, batons yeah, we did a lot of weaponless um defense, uh training back then was it practical or were they more like karate going through the motion?

Speaker 3 6:29

no, no, it was no, it was practical yeah, it was practical. You know your arm bars, all your you know, all your typical uh, typical stuff, um and then, um, let's see, yeah, we that's. Yeah, that's basically all we had until until later on and I noticed you're not that tall.

Speaker 2 6:48

How'd you notice? So was it? Uh, was it intimidating?

Speaker 3 6:52

no, you know, I I was never intimidated, I think because I grew up in san jose. Yeah, um, you know, it's a, I mean it's a, it's a doggy dog world absolutely and I and I ran a lot on the east side of San Jose and southeast side, which is a little rougher yeah. Yeah, and I grew up typically I mean mostly on the southeast side of San Jose and I was exposed to all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 2 7:17

I mean I've seen it all growing up in San Jose, Was it predominantly Mexican, Hispanic or black? No, it's a melting pot. It was a melting pot.

Speaker 3 7:25

In San Jose, yeah, oh yeah. It's like LA, so it's just a melting pot of every race, every economic.

Speaker 2 7:33

But it had its rough side as well, oh yeah.

Speaker 3 7:35

Yeah, like any major city.

Speaker 2 7:37

Right.

Speaker 3 7:37

So yeah, but I mean I was exposed to all that and then, with my dad being in, law enforcement and my stepmom being in law enforcement.

Speaker 2 7:49

I heard all the stories and you know I was a little scrapper. No, that's excellent. It's good news. It helps me ask these questions. Did your dad in any way?

Speaker 3 7:58

shape or form, encourage you or discourage you from joining law enforcement. He didn't either way. Neither way, I don't know. You know to be honest with you, I don't know. I think he was glad that I could, that I, when I got, you know, got a job that I was, he knew that I could take care of myself. Right you know, like he knew I was going to have. You know, you know retirement and yeah, medical coverage and all that stuff. So I think he was happy about that you know, at least for that part.

Speaker 3 8:21

I don't know how he really felt about me being in there, but I mean he used to say I was fearless. He'd be, like when you were a kid you were fearless.

Speaker 2 8:30

That's huge, yeah, but scary for a parent.

Speaker 3 8:33

Yeah, yeah, but being smaller in stature, you learn to obviously command. Presence is huge. That's your number one thing, I mean. You walk into a room or you know, or walk into a dorm or a housing unit. You have to walk in there Like I'm going to kick everybody's ass, but I'm not, and they all know I'm not, but you, you know what I mean. Like you walk in there with, with, authority you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 8:58

Like, I know that I'm not going to walk into a housing unit of 30 men and kick anybody's ass. I realized that. But I'm also not going to put up with any shit either.

Speaker 2 9:07

So I like that you're saying all of this with that being said, but you also wouldn't, you also would be willing to? Oh, I'll get down Exactly, yeah, so can you please everything you just said right now can you please explain to the youngsters, right, Because that's what this whole podcast is about to drop the wisdom and knowledge that has walked away from the department. You don't have to be the tallest person. It's not about size, it's not about maybe words. Talk about that demeanor.

Speaker 3 9:36

Well, a lot of it's respect. You go in there, you demand respect, and it's a give and take, right. So I mean but you got to walk in there with authority that you're not going to put up with anything. So you cat call me, I'm going to call you out on that.

Speaker 3 9:52

Like you're not going to cat call me and you know, or you're not going to be disrespectful to me and not get checked, you know. Now, that doesn't mean I'm going to get physical with you if you're, you know, some 200 pound, you know parolee.

Speaker 3 10:03

That's not going to happen, but we're going to talk about it you know and we're going to, we're going to have a discussion about it and so, yeah, it's just, it's just how you present yourself and some people, some people are born with it and some people, I think it can be taught.

Speaker 2 10:21

I think so too.

Speaker 3 10:25

I think it can be taught, but not everybody has that, not everybody can be taught it.

Speaker 2 10:27

Let's just put it that way, correct? Yeah, no, you're hitting it right on the money. Yeah, so yeah just Was there a lot of females in that agency at that time?

Speaker 3 10:38

My first time through. Yes, we've had periods of time where we would have, you know, plenty of females and then there'd be times where we wouldn't have enough females. So that would you know, because you're working all different housing units, you know, plus the intake center, so you could be assigned to a female, what we would call female jail. You could be assigned to, you know, west housing or the main jail where the men are housed. So just depends.

Speaker 2 11:04

Could you explain the layout? Is it? One location is where the whole entire complex is and it's divided into different buildings.

Speaker 3 11:12

So there was the original main jail. That's the old jail. So that's like the old style with the bars and the sliding.

Speaker 2 11:19

Like in the country.

Speaker 3 11:19

western movies yes yes, that's the original jail. And then built onto that, was a facility called West Housing, which would probably be more like it's. West Housing was six pods with, like I think, 18, 18 cells in each one. In each one two-man cells. Some of them were one-man cells. They changed later on. And then there was another dorm that would house I think like 30, maybe 30 to 50 on each side. It was called West Dorm 7 and 800. Later on, towards the end of my career, we built a whole entire new facility that was supposed to be for females only because our female housing we got just exploded and we had no. We were literally stepping over bodies at one point.

Speaker 2 12:09

The female housing exploded, meaning there was a big influx in female inmates.

Speaker 3 12:13

Yes.

Speaker 2 12:13

What was up with that? Like what was going on in the world.

Speaker 3 12:15

I just think the County growing and you know, and just you know, more, more dope on the streets and so Very on the streets and so Very interesting.

Speaker 2 12:26

What about that in-processing unit that you mentioned?

Speaker 3 12:32

What was that Like? Are you taking people, receiving people off the streets? Yes, so when you get arrested, say you get arrested for DUI, you get arrested for murder, you're going to get booked in. So you're coming into the intake.

Speaker 3 12:38

you know we're patting you down, we're taking all your property we're processing you and then put you in a holding cell, make your phone calls. Then we fingerprint you, photograph you and then figure out. You know, are you going to bail out, are you going to be site released, are you going to be staying with us? And then, if you're going to stay, obviously we're going to dress you out. You know, do the old strip search and get you housed.

Speaker 2 13:02

Fun fact, I've actually been arrested three times and I've gone through that whole entire process. So is there phones inside of those holding cells?

Speaker 3 13:12

Yes, just the regular holding cells there are. We had there's also other cells in there, you know, like just holding cells that have none. Like you know more of a like a, not a safety cell, but like observations. Yeah, I hear you more of a like a, um, not a safety cell but um like observations. I can't even remember the name of it right now Kind of like an isolation, yeah. Isolation, it's like well, yeah, but they're not isolation, they're just like drunk tanks, basically like a drunk tank.

Speaker 2 13:35

And it was. There's the phone numbers of bail bondsmen's. Next to the phone.

Speaker 3 13:38

You guys did that too.

Speaker 2 13:39

I'm wondering who does that. Is it like the local sheriffs? Is it a I mean, is it a good practice? Is that a practice throughout many jails?

Speaker 3 13:45

Yes.

Speaker 2 13:46

Why so people just get the hell out?

Speaker 3 13:48

Well, yeah, you got to give them access. Otherwise they're going to be asking you, and then you're going to be like back in the day we'd brought out the phone book, you know, but now it'd be like Google you know, let me Google.

Speaker 2 14:00

Is that a policy?

Speaker 3 14:01

Yeah, it's a policy yeah.

Speaker 2 14:03

Why Would that be a conflict of interest? Yeah, a conflict of interest.

Speaker 3 14:05

Yeah, it's like say, you know? Your cousins are freaking bail bondsmen, yeah, bail bondsmen and you're like oh hey, go to AAA bonds, you know, or whatever.

Speaker 2 14:11

Right, very interesting. What about that chair? Did you guys have a chair?

Command Presence and Working With Inmates

Speaker 3 14:29

I've seen chairs that we did yes, and what would that be used for? We had a big controversial incident happen at the jail where an inmate actually died in that chair, at that jail. Yes, yes, yeah, it was a big, huge deal. So basically, like you know somebody that would be like super combative, you know, basically, somebody that would be super combative is pretty much going to be your only reason that I can think of. Let's talk about it, let's go there.

Speaker 2 14:52

So you said okay, I recently got off the phone not too long ago with somebody and we talked about inmates that die in custody as a result of I mean, we've seen it Getting high fighting the cops, you wrestle with the dude and next thing you know he has a heart attack and he dies. Now the cops are going under federal charges. From your experience you know, because, like, let's say, civilians are watching and they think fucking cops always want to kill people. Deputies are beating the shit out of guys In your take. Does that happen? Do people consume drugs wild out in jail?

Speaker 3 15:28

Oh yeah, 100%. And people coming in, like when they're coming into county jail, it's a lot different than when they're going to prison, because generally they're cleaned up by the time. You know they're going to prison Not always, but I mean we are receiving people at their worst. I mean we're we are receiving people at their worst. I mean when they are. I mean sometimes they look like walking death when they come in um, you know cause they've been out on the streets, they've been using Um. So we basically nurse them back to health and and you have to, we, you know we would go through the process with them. You know of them kicking heroin or, you know, detoxing from alcohol, which is extremely dangerous.

Speaker 2 16:03

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 16:04

So you know you're seeing these people go through the process. It got to the point, like you knew certain people when they came in, like I knew how this person kicks their dope. Like, oh okay, that person kicks their dope, they're totally cool, this person's out of their gourd, you know. So it's like you get to know your inmates and how they kick their dope. But yeah, it's like you get to know your inmates and how they kick their dope. But yeah, you're seeing them at the worst. They're not healthy.

Speaker 2 16:30

I mean they are very sick. What do you think that does to the human psychology? Like, from your perspective, watching people at their worst.

Speaker 3 16:36

Oh, it takes a toll on you. You see the worst of the worst, and I've always said this that with drugs, you see what people will do to themselves, to others, to their family, to their kids, all in the name of drugs. Absolutely I mean, and it's some horrible stuff. You know, I've seen some horrible stuff and heard some horrible stories.

Speaker 2 16:57

Absolutely no. It's something that doesn't get a light shed on. I mean, people rarely hear stories like this.

Speaker 3 17:03

Yeah, it's. You know, if you've never, if you've never obviously been in a jail or worked in a jail, you just don't know. I mean, you really don't. You don't know what, what people or what the you know the staff is dealing with on a daily basis.

Speaker 2 17:17

Correct. I mean it's probably um you're. You're dealing with probably the worst that society has to offer.

Speaker 3 17:25

Yes, and I'm not saying that everybody that comes into jail is a bad person.

Speaker 2 17:28

No, we're talking about the overall experience of some things that are seen or experienced in there.

Speaker 3 17:34

Cause. I'll tell you what I mean. There's several um inmates that we had that you know. I mean, like I said, we had same inmates generally come in all the time. You know it's the same.

Speaker 2 17:43

Frequent flyers.

Speaker 3 17:44

It's the frequent flyers Same ones, you know, on dope can't stand them. They're the worst human being ever Cleaned up. Man, they are some nice people.

Speaker 2 17:55

So you experienced that?

Speaker 3 17:56

Yeah, like I mean oh yeah, you see the total transition, the total change like from you know somebody who comes in. They're angry, they're pissed off, they're kicking dope, they're mother effing you up and down, and then a couple weeks later they're all cleaned up and their head's clear and they're actually not bad. People Like oh hey, welcome, that's addiction. Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 2 18:22

And addiction's addiction, oh, absolutely Absolutely.

Speaker 3 18:23

And addiction's real, yeah, but it's hard too, because you're also dealing with the fact that now that they're clean, they're having to process all their shit, all their baggage all their demons as well, so you get that aspect of it too.

Speaker 2 18:38

So what role is a correctional deputy? Because it sounds to me like, hey, you're almost like a social worker, because you're experiencing these ups and downs with them.

Speaker 3 18:48

Yeah, I think, uh, towards the latter part of my career, we were really, um, you know, focused on, you know, reducing recidivism and all that and re trying to rehabilitate everybody and, and you know we had a few programs that we offered for our male and female trustees out on the honor farm that really dealt with dove into mental health and more like social work. So you know, if you were assigned out there, yeah, it was more of like you were a social worker at times.

Speaker 2 19:23

So how long would you say it took you for you to learn your style and get the feel for things and embrace your environment?

Speaker 3 19:31

I think a good three to five years, I think. You know, I think by five years you've pretty much seen, seen it all at that point. But I mean I mean probably right, I mean I don't know, I mean I wouldn't say, I mean I was always, I was always comfortable in there.

Speaker 2 19:51

How about your communication skills? Did that excel as time went by?

Speaker 3 19:56

Oh, absolutely, yeah, I mean, and, like I said, I mean I was used to communicating with all walks of life from where I grew up, so communicating to people was not, was not was never really an issue, you know because, in fact, you know, the funny thing is is, San Luis Obispo County is predominantly white. Okay, so you know, when I, when I first moved there, it was actually culture shocking to me, Like I couldn't, I was where, where's everybody else, you know, where? You know? I mean, it really was.

Speaker 2 20:25

But you're white. Yeah, I know, you appear white.

Speaker 3 20:27

Yeah, no, I'm white. And I mean it was, it was shocking to me. No, I totally get it Because, yeah, because I'd grown up. You know around every, you know all different colors and cultures and all this. And then just going there I was like where is we? You know we don't have. I mean, you know, most of our population in the jail is Hispanic and white, pretty much.

Speaker 2 20:47

Most of the population of the inmates are Hispanic and white.

Speaker 3 20:50

Yes, yes, a few of just a handful of blacks, but very few.

Speaker 2 20:55

It's very funny how we get so comfortable. I interview former military veterans as well. It's like it almost seems like race and ethnicity. We get comfortable with what we know and what we surround ourselves with, absolutely. Oh, and like when you're outside of your environment or you're like oh shit.

Speaker 3 21:11

Yeah, it took a long time for me to adjust to that, but being in the jail and being I was I was never uncomfortable in the jail. Okay. I it's.

Speaker 2 21:26

I never had to. Yeah, I just never struggled with that, like with the environment. What crimes did these individuals commit that were getting processed?

Speaker 3 21:29

through that jail. Oh, everything, everything from teenage or college-age girls drunk in public to to murder. I mean we had a murder yeah we had yeah, we had a serial killer come through who was a serial killer uh rex krebs what was he doing? Uh, he killed two college girls in san luis obispo, what's that? In the woods or um no, he lived up um actually kind of by avala beach up in that area was this during the time frame you were working?

Speaker 3 21:56

uh-huh, holy shit yeah, I actually, um, the day that he confessed, I um chained him up, hooked him up and when he came back I unhooked him and he smelled like cigarette smoke and so I knew he'd been out with detectives because I took him out. That was the day that he confessed. I took him, I went to the housing unit and I got him and I remember he was all pissed off because he was just in on a parole violation and so I'll I'll never forget. I walked him down and he was like, well, who's here? I'm like I don't know. They just called me, somebody wants to see you. And then, you know, they hooked him up, they took him out and then, when he came back, I unhooked him and took him back and I was like, oh, they the news in that location, like serial killer on the loose, oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 22:46

Well, it wasn't serial killer, but I mean they didn't. They actually didn't. I mean there was girls missing, but they didn't know. Yeah, I mean I'm assuming they assumed that there was.

Speaker 2 22:55

So when that individual got arrested, were there like talks amongst the COs Like hey, that's the dude that killed these fucking females. Yeah, that killed these fucking females.

Speaker 3 23:02

Yeah, and well, at first we didn't know because he was just on a parole violation and so, you know, at that time we didn't know. But then later on we found out. You know, I was like oh, he confessed to that. You know, I didn't really know what he was confessing to, but yeah, and it was weird because I stayed away from him after that.

Speaker 2 23:22

Why.

Speaker 3 23:22

Because his victims looked a lot like me. They were short in stature, brown hair, and so I just I did not. And he's very charismatic, you know, extremely charismatic. And very after that, once he was, once he was sentenced and he was staying with a, you know, once he was going through his court, trial and all that stuff, you know, because he stayed with us for several years before he got convicted, he became very friendly and very charismatic.

Speaker 2 23:53

So prior to you, you had interactions with him prior to finding out that he murdered two women. When you found that out, your interactions with him changed.

Speaker 3 24:04

Yes, can you elaborate?

Speaker 2 24:12

And what I'm seeing is like instinctively, like I feel, like you instinctively sense something like fuck this, fuck this dude.

Speaker 3 24:14

I got to keep a distance, yeah, and he would try to be really friendly. You know what I mean Like overly friendly to you.

Speaker 2 24:18

Well, these are like serial killers.

Speaker 3 24:19

They're like psychopaths, yeah so I just I didn't play into it. Yeah, so I just I didn't play into it. I was, I would just ignore him, and you know.

Speaker 2 24:24

Could you tell what he was doing?

Speaker 3 24:25

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, some fucking people fall for it yeah no, no, you could, absolutely, because we had him in an isolation cell. Obviously he was high profile, you know, and so he spent, he, you know, stayed his majority of the time in an isolation cell. And so, you know, as you're walking by and want to chat with you, you know, and I'm like I don't have time, I got, I'm working. You know, you got time today.

Speaker 2 24:52

A lot of newer CEOs fuck even older. Some, with some time, have a hard time drawing that line in the sand. What tips, advice or could you give on setting your boundaries, your own personal boundaries of what you will or will not tolerate?

Speaker 3 25:00

Well, for me, um, you know they're know they're not your friends. It's a job, you know what I mean. So inmates are not your friends. Now, sometimes they'll be like oh hey, ceo, can you do me a favor? No, I don't do favors, exactly Because I only do favors for friends and we're not friends. Don't get it twisted. I can help you out with something, but it's not going to be a favor, right?

Speaker 3 25:23

You know, out with something, but it's not going to be a favor, you know. So, um, so yeah, you just have, you have to set your boundaries and you have to do that. And I think that comes from, probably from training, you know, having good training officers to to let you know, you know, because at first you want to cause, you want to help everybody. That you know you first go on the job and you're like, oh, I want to help everybody, you know. Oh, you need toilet paper.

Speaker 3 25:42

Yeah, let me, let me, oh wait, I come back Now. You need another roll of toilet paper you know, and so you know, especially probably as women, as we're more nurturers, you know.

Speaker 2 25:52

Yep.

Speaker 3 25:53

So you have to know that, you know you have to set your boundaries early.

Speaker 2 25:58

Now this may sound like a wild idea, but what advice would you give in 2025 if the management or supervisors are saying, hey, these inmates are just misunderstood. You really need to get to know them, have personal conversations with them, tell them about your families, befriend them? What would you say?

Speaker 3 26:17

Oh, you'd be surprised how many officers do that.

Speaker 3 26:20

Yeah, I don't, I don't. I was very private, right. Even if I was seen out in public with my kids, I would. If by chance they saw me again, you know, or came back into custody. We're like, oh hey, I saw you with your kids. I was like those aren't my kids, I don't have kids. I mean I would, I would lie Smart, I would lie all the time because being there, you know, at the county jail, you're seeing most of the people that are coming into jail how often, oh lots, all the time All the time Damn.

Speaker 2 26:46

So it's probably beneficial that you know you keep things on the up and up in there, Meaning you don't beat the shit out of somebody, Cause they can see you out there.

Speaker 3 26:53

Well, you know, yeah, you know, you're always you're, and like they know, if they're being an asshole, you know. And sometimes they'll come up later and like, sorry, I was being an asshole, I was having a bad day, my old lady did this. Whatever, you know.

Speaker 2 27:11

Right.

Speaker 3 27:12

I mean they understand, as long as you're respectful to them. You know what I mean. Respect is so huge, so huge, and you have to understand too and you know this that the rules in prison and jail are not the same rules as out in society, like the same rules that you and I follow. There's our own set of rules in prison.

Speaker 2 27:33

Yeah, it's its own separate world.

Speaker 3 27:34

Yeah it's a whole entire world.

Speaker 2 27:38

Give some examples of respect in a correctional facility and how important it is.

Speaker 3 27:45

Oh, you know just the way you talk to somebody. You know not just treating somebody shitty just because they're an inmate. You know, hey, like I said and I tell sometimes I say you know, hey, it could have been me, you know, I could have, I could have got that DUI or I could have, you know, gotten a drunk in public or something when I was a kid, whatever, you know. So I mean just being respectful. I think the way you speak to someone, you know how you treat them. You know, and just you know, if somebody needs toilet paper, just get them the freaking toilet paper. You know, I mean as long as they have a. You know they don't have 5,000,. You know rolls in their thing. You know, instead of being an ass and saying no, I'm not getting you toilet paper. You know, I mean, if it's something that can be, I was always like, if it's something that can be handled and is not going to cause a problem, then I'm going to do it, cause that's part of my job.

Speaker 2 28:37

Did you guys have soup? I'm sure you guys had supervisor rank. How did that structure work?

Speaker 3 28:42

So regular, like what I would call slick sleeves, would just be a regular correctional deputy. Then we had senior correctional deputies which were our training officers, and then after that was sergeant lieutenant captain.

Speaker 2 28:55

During your time frame? Was it kind of instilled in you like, hey, we handle our problems at the lowest level and we don't want to bother the supervisors Absolutely, absolutely Because, as you know, like as the years change, that kind of flipped.

Speaker 3 29:06

Yes, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. You know, I'm even, like you know, getting grievances from the inmates. Like I would always handle it on the lowest level, like I would be like, hey, how can we fix this grievance? You know, like I don't, I don't want to take this to my Sergeant. Like you know, I need to make a phone call or something. You know that they need to get out at a certain time or who knows. You know just something. I'm just making an example, you know, probably not a correct example, but you know, if it's something low level that I could fix, like if they want to grieve because they're not getting toilet paper, you know, here I'll give you a roll of toilet paper. I'm not going to take this to my unit is what I would say, especially if I was working a housing unit. Like I don't want to bring heat to my unit, I don't want to bring my sergeant over to my unit if I need to run make sure it runs smooth.

Speaker 2 29:52

It's basically a reflection of yourself.

Speaker 3 29:54

Sure, right I mean and I was a supervisor so you can always tell the ones that do not have control of the unit. Well, and that's a huge thing, is having control. I mean, obviously you're one person in a housing unit of tons of inmates, but you still have control. You have to control this environment.

Speaker 2 30:16

Is there a formal grievance process in the jail? I mean like a form or something.

Speaker 3 30:21

Yes, it's changed. It used to be you had to ride on a kite. Hey, I want a grievance, and then we would get the grievance Like a regular piece of paper.

Speaker 3 30:31

No, we have inmate kites that are requests inmate requests, so they can request stuff on this kite, and there's medical ones, psychological ones or mental health ones, and then there's just regular general asking question. So they would ask for a grievance on the kite. We could get get the grievance, and then I would go out and talk to people like, hey, you know, uh, you know what's going on, you know, can we solve this problem? You know we'll talk to the person and then if it was something that I could solve, I would solve it. If it was something that was, you know, maybe above me, then I was like all right, hey, go ahead and put the grievance in.

Speaker 2 31:06

I'm really glad we're talking about this, because this topic has never been spoken on. Um grievances, I mean, inmates do have grievances. Let's keep it real, and I do keep it real. Um, yeah, I mean, they fucking live there, they're going, they're not going anywhere. Yeah, they need sometimes they need some shit. Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 3 31:22

No, there's some legit grievances, you know, at times and, like I said, I don't think I there wasn't very many grievances that I turned in because I generally tried to take care of them, I mean obviously.

Speaker 3 31:35

I couldn't take care of all of them. But I know, see, in the early years they weren't allowed to grieve officers. But towards the end of my career they were allowed to grieve officers. But towards the end of my career they were allowed to grieve officers and we were just handing out grievances in the housing units, like not even having to kite anymore. We just gave them to them. Here you go. Here you go.

Speaker 2 31:57

What were they grieving Like? Oh I don't like this guy's get down, this person's mistreating us.

Speaker 3 32:01

Yes, I don't, I can't even, I can't even tell you what.

County Jail Structure and Female Housing

Speaker 2 32:06

I know you mentioned that a lot of these were revolving doors, getting arrested and going back into the streets, but what about the ones that were facing prison time? What did that process look like for them? So yeah.

Speaker 3 32:17

So basically, I mean, you know same process, whatever it is that they, you know they're getting arrested for. You know, if they're already on parole, you know it could be a parole violation on top of a new charge. So you know, once they get sentenced, or you know, take their, you know take their plea, whatever they, whatever their sentence is, then they would stay with us until back in law. You know, beginning of my career, cdc bus would come and pick them up or the LA County bus. Was it the LA County bus or CDC? No, the CDC bus, no, the CDC bus would come, because I remember, I remember they'd always give the females these big old muumuu's, muumuu dresses to wear. They'd dress them out like CDC officers, would come in, they would strip search the gals that were going or the guys that were going, you know, and they would give them the females, these big we call them muumuu they're big muumuu dresses.

Speaker 2 33:07

Now they have male transgenders wearing muumuu's on the yard. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me, yeah, yeah, that's a whole other topic. I know what a muumuu is, unfortunately, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 33:15

Yeah, that's a whole other topic that we could get into because it's on the county jail of this interview. Yeah, but yeah. So CDC bus would come and pick them up and then just take them off, you know to Wasco or you know wherever.

Speaker 2 33:28

Did they ever? Because you said Slow Jail was right across from Mule Creek, or not Mule?

Speaker 3 33:32

Creek, no CMC.

Speaker 2 33:33

CMC. Did they ever send a transportation team, or vice versa, across the street like that? No, first process the reception, yeah, yeah, so, and then wherever they go. Okay, that makes sense. So, hey guys, consider becoming a patron, where you will get first exclusive dibs on the video before it airs to the public and you'll get to ask the guests special questions that you have in mind. So that's also another way to support the channel. Thank you, guys. Appreciate all of you. Keep pushing forward.

Speaker 3 34:02

Make sure you hit that link in description below yeah, and then back then it was Chowchilla, so females would go down to Chowchilla.

Speaker 2 34:11

I don't want to jump too far ahead, but what did you prefer working the male side of the house or the female?

Speaker 3 34:17

side of the house. That's a tough one. Males are less dramatic. I was about to tell you, I hate women. Yeah, there's a lot of drama.

Speaker 3 34:31

There can be a lot of drama in a female housing unit and it really depends on the inmates that you have in there, because a lot of the same girls are coming in, you know, and they all know each other from the streets and stuff. So you know, you bring in one female, put them in a housing unit and it can just totally disrupt the whole entire housing unit. You know, and the same thing with males too, but Not really Not too much, no.

Speaker 2 34:58

No, but can you elaborate Like what is it? What did you observe? Did you observe like, because I know they get into relationships with each other.

Speaker 3 35:05

I was going to say it's usually over relationships, yeah.

Speaker 2 35:08

But don't they adopt roles Like oh, I'm going to be the mom You're going to be the daughter Like what else did you observe?

Speaker 3 35:12

Yeah, sometimes.

Speaker 2 35:14

That changed the dynamics, or yeah?

Speaker 3 35:16

just drama, you know, or it could be just, you know, drama from the streets, you know, just like you know somebody messing around with somebody's, you know boyfriend, yeah, or whatever. Oh, yeah, you know. So just that kind of drama, or just drama from the streets, yeah, just whatever Dope deals, you know, who knows, somebody stole something from somebody.

Speaker 2 35:36

So Well, could we do have viewers that are females and work in female institutions? Do they treat the females different than they do the males? The COs.

Speaker 3 35:47

I don't think I mean.

Speaker 2 35:49

From your experience.

Speaker 3 35:50

Not no, I mean like everybody gets the same stuff. You know what I mean For Not no, I mean like everybody gets the same stuff. You know what?

Speaker 2 35:55

I mean for the most part. What I meant was do the female inmates like have it out for female staff members? No, I don't think so. I never felt like that, like caddy or whatever.

Speaker 3 36:02

No, I never felt like that.

Speaker 2 36:03

Okay, so you were able to communicate with them.

Speaker 3 36:05

Yeah, because I'll check them too, you know. I mean, you know, same rules apply Did.

Speaker 2 36:10

Did you ever?

Speaker 3 36:11

have to, oh gosh, yes.

Speaker 2 36:13

Oh, yes, why? Because they forgot where they were. They got out of line.

Speaker 3 36:16

Yeah, no. So I had a rule in my head, and this was from early on If I tell you three times to do something, if by the third time you haven't done it, it's going to get done. Okay, whatever I'm asking you to do, so whether I have to do you know whether I have to get you to do it or I have to bring somebody else over to get you to do it. You know, whatever I'm only going to ask you three times. I'm not going to beg you, I'm not going to negotiate, I'm not going to bribe you. I'm going to ask you three times. And so, yeah, I mean there was times that I mean this was probably earlier in my career.

Speaker 2 36:48

Things were different earlier on in your career.

Speaker 3 36:50

Yeah, it wasn't, it was different in. There was and there was a mutual respect. You know, like if you had to go hands-on with somebody, they respected that. The next time they came in they remembered, you know, that there was a hands-on incident and usually didn't have problems. We didn't have as many problems back in my earlier career as we did later on.

Speaker 2 37:18

They probably understood that it was business.

Speaker 3 37:20

Absolutely Most, most inmates understand, you know they have a yeah, they have a job, we have a job. You know what I mean. Like everybody has a job to do. Sometimes you're better at your job, sometimes I'm better at mine.

Speaker 2 37:31

Right, cat and mouse. Yeah, back then. Yeah, so you started in 98. You would eventually take a leave of absence, or did you?

Speaker 3 37:42

quit? No, I left at that time. I left in 2002, 2003, right in that area or that timeframe, and so I was gone from the jail for nine years.

Speaker 2 37:54

Nine years, that's a long time.

Speaker 3 37:56

Yeah, it was a long time. Yeah, definitely, so that's kind of interesting. We'll talk about the changes when I came back.

Speaker 2 38:03

We were talking about stress. Did you feel yourself like decompress when you left? Did you realize like fuck the environment? I was in, kind of had my tension up 100%. And did you realize that while you were working, or that's something you noticed?

Speaker 3 38:18

No, you don't realize it until after you. And then, and it's still. It took, it has still taken me years to not like when people walk up behind me like I don't, I don't like it. It, it's it's puts me on edge and it's still taking. I'm probably I'm better now. But yeah, you notice that at first, like the whole weight of your shoulders is like this whole liability or there's just this stress is gone. But it does take time to like almost readapt to civilian life, I guess.

Speaker 2 38:50

No, you're right.

Speaker 3 38:51

Because I mean I spent, you know, you figure I did 12 hours a day. You know we worked 12-hour shifts, so I spent a lot of time in there.

Speaker 2 38:58

You said a word right now liability. I don't think civilians understand the immense stress that it comes with the feeling of liability Like fuck man, I can get caught up in a wreck, I can get caught up in a federal indictment with something my partner does.

Speaker 3 39:12

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 39:16

Can you talk about more of the liabilities that correctional officers take on.

Speaker 3 39:17

Yeah Well, I think now, especially with the way that the public perceives, you know, law enforcement, there's not a lot of support. So even doing your job sometimes looks bad. You know, if you have to go hands on with somebody, it doesn't. Going hands on with somebody is not, does not look good, it looks ugly. You know, if you have to go hands-on with somebody, it doesn't. Going hands-on with somebody does not look good.

Speaker 3 39:37

It looks ugly, it's ugly, yeah, it's ugly business and so it doesn't look good. And if you hit it from a certain angle, this angle, it could look real bad. But they don't see what led up to that and you know what got you to that point. So even for doing your job you can be liable.

Speaker 2 39:56

By the book too, doing everything, everything, right yeah.

Speaker 3 39:59

And that's what you know towards the end of my career. That's what?

Speaker 2 40:02

Well, because, fuck, I don't want to jump ahead because agendas get involved, political pushes and fucking peer pressure. Absolutely they can be out to burn anyone. Yep.

Speaker 3 40:11

Absolutely We've seen that.

Speaker 2 40:13

So while you're away on your little vacation for nine years, AB-109 hits.

Speaker 3 40:19

Yes, AB-109 was hitting what? 2011, 12? Yeah, 11, 12, right in there. And when did you touch back into the institution?

Speaker 2 40:25

2011. 2011. 2011. Ab-109, for those of you guys not familiar with AB-109, that was huge here in California. We pretty much released a lot, a lot of inmates to the streets and to the local county jails.

Speaker 3 40:39

Yeah, yeah, the the what. The goal was that the state wanted to reduce the prison population. Correct.

Speaker 3 40:46

Right. So in doing that, all they did was they took funds from the prisons and gave it to the county and then said the county and, and just shifted all the prisoners over to the county. And so we were completely unprepared. I mean, you, you talk about, you know the difference between prison, county jails were only, are only there to spend a year, like you know it used to be you. The most you could spend in a county jail, sentenced as a sentence inmate, was one year. Okay, if you were sentenced anything over a year, you go upstate.

Speaker 2 41:17

Right.

Speaker 3 41:17

Okay, you know, obviously you could stay there longer if you're going through trial and all that stuff, but so we only have housing, that's, you know, facilities that are for a year.

Speaker 2 41:28

Correct. You know, like infrastructure and supplies probably.

Speaker 3 41:33

I mean it's huge. So services, all that. So when all that shifted over to us, our population like doubled. So when I was there just put this in hindsight when I was there earlier, when I left in like 2002, 2003, our population was probably in the four hundreds. Okay, when I 400, total, total, total, you know, and and give or take. You know, when I came back um, our population was 800 plus. Our female jail only is was only capable of holding like 43. We'd have sometimes a hundred females in there.

Speaker 3 42:13

I mean, there was times I'd be like I said stepping over bodies.

Speaker 2 42:17

Okay, I want you to paint the picture for me what that unit looked like. What was there Cells, bunk beds Prior to the influx? What did it look like? Where were the ladies sleeping, the inmates?

Speaker 3 42:28

So we had two dormitories. One was a trustee dormitory, the other one where we used all our workers, and then the other one was a trustee dormitory, the other one where we used our workers, and then the other one was just a low level dorm. So your low level.

Speaker 2 42:38

Are they on bunk beds?

Speaker 3 42:39

Yeah, bunk beds yeah. So it was probably, I think maybe 30 to each side 30 to each side.

Speaker 2 42:44

Yes, and is there a day room area?

Speaker 3 42:55

Yes, yeah, day room, it's all open, it's bunk bed, yeah, it's just like a dorm, okay. So TVs yeah, tvs, tables, showers, you know, toilets, all that. Then you go down the hall and you turn, we'd have one safety cell and three isolation cells and then there was a maximum maximum security area. So those were all two two men, two, two women cells and those were our heavy hitters. You know our parolees or you know?

Speaker 2 43:15

Serious women.

Speaker 3 43:16

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 43:17

So when you would walk into that those units pre AB 109, did you feel like there was enough space to walk around? Oh, yeah, yeah, it felt manageable.

Speaker 3 43:29

Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2 43:30

And then what about after?

Speaker 3 43:31

Oh, at one point, like I said, I mean literally you open the door and you're almost stepping over a body.

Speaker 2 43:36

What are they doing? Sleeping on the floor.

Speaker 3 43:38

Yeah, sleeping on the floor.

Speaker 2 43:39

On a mattress. Yeah, yeah. Were there not a bunk assigned to?

Speaker 3 43:43

them. No, there was no bunks available.

Speaker 2 43:45

So then, how do you like?

Speaker 3 43:46

So there is a through. What is it? Title 15. They can only sleep on the floor for so long.

Speaker 2 43:56

But how do you track their housing? You know, you can't say like cell 101.

Speaker 3 44:00

Yeah, Well it was like dorm dorm one, dorm two, and then we have like each bunk number has a bunk, and then we would just like okay, you're now, you're 36 or 37, you know yeah. So you know he's kind of in in rows, you know, you just kind of line them up.

Speaker 3 44:14

Yeah, the worst. So you know he's kind of in in rows, you know, you just kind of light him up. Yeah, the worst was like seriously like stepping over bodies. So classification our classification unit was like constantly having to juggle. You know like okay, with this this person can only yeah, I know this person can only be on the floor for so long no way, holy shit, that was a fucking thing.

Speaker 3 44:30

Yeah, because yeah for title 15. I think it's like I can't remember. I I cannot remember remember how long, but it's only like a few days or a day or 48 hours.

Speaker 2 44:38

I never even knew that wasn't a Title 15.

Speaker 3 44:40

I think I'm pretty sure it is, I'm pretty sure.

Speaker 2 44:44

But there's some type of legal aspect to it.

Speaker 3 44:46

Yeah, that you have to get them up off the floor, so they would just constantly be swapping.

Speaker 2 44:49

So were they rotating them through? Yeah, just rotating. Yeah, oh, my Typical, typical bullshit yeah.

Speaker 3 44:54

I mean we didn't have any choice, I mean there was nothing else we could do at that time, Because, see, we weren't kicking people out at that time we were keeping everybody, so you know.

Speaker 2 45:05

Were these female inmates unhappy that they were sleeping on the floor. I don't think they cared. They didn't care.

Speaker 3 45:12

For some of them it was probably better than sleeping on the sidewalk Under the fucking bridge or something. Yeah on the bridge, yeah so.

Speaker 3 45:17

Yeah, I mean we'd give them double mattresses and stuff, you know, if we had them available, you know. So it wasn't much. I can't imagine it was much worse than the steel bunk that they slept on. I know it's just the whole aspect of like we're in the United States and we have inmates sleeping on the floor. Yeah, that seems like third world country type. Oh yeah, stuff to me, yeah, but we built a new jail.

Speaker 2 45:40

You know, okay, what about their chow time? Like um, did they leave the dorm to go into a chow hall?

Speaker 3 45:46

no, we just we feed them in the dorm.

Speaker 2 45:49

That's horrible well, they have tables in there yeah, but I mean, like I told you, I did a week in jail and one of the things I look forward to is leaving the fucking dorm and going to the chow hall and eating.

Speaker 3 45:58

Hey, if you don't like it, then go to jail.

Speaker 2 46:02

What about yard recreation time?

Speaker 3 46:04

Yeah, we had a separate yard so we would just do yard call. Sometimes we'd force everybody to go out. You know if it was a nice day everybody's getting up.

Speaker 2 46:19

Everybody up, everybody's going out and getting some sunshine today, you know, otherwise we'd do like voluntary yard time and put them out. There was a yard adjacent, now were the male side of the house also overpopulated after AB 119?

Speaker 3 46:23

Oh, absolutely. What did it?

Speaker 2 46:23

look like Like, like like the cells were full or Same thing they had like floor sleepers.

Speaker 3 46:28

They did. Yeah, in the cells, some in the dorms, absolutely yeah, I mean, it was, it was crazy.

Speaker 2 46:34

You know that's a bad time in our state history.

Speaker 3 46:37

It is, it was, and people just thought they were. You know, I think, or whoever thought they were doing such a good thing.

Speaker 2 46:44

You know we talked about it offline. It's a political agenda from the top. Yeah, and who paid?

Speaker 3 46:50

Everybody, fucking, fucking paid at the well, not only were we, but probation also got hit too, because they were having to take all these cases now um, so yeah, it was just a whole, whole entire thing.

Speaker 3 47:02

The other thing too is, you know, we didn't have, once we started sentencing people, our first, um, our first inmate to be sentenced was a female, and I believe that she got seven years. So somebody told me 15, but I think it was seven, because I think she got out in like three and a half or something, but she got sentenced to seven years in county jail.

Speaker 2 47:24

Seven years in county jail.

Speaker 3 47:25

Yes.

Speaker 2 47:26

That was one of the first ones that got that major sentence.

Speaker 3 47:28

Yeah, she was the very first one, yeah, the first one after.

Speaker 2 47:30

Were you guys shocked.

Speaker 3 47:31

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, the thing was is that—.

Speaker 2 47:33

Was she shocked?

Speaker 3 47:35

No, she was—I mean she knew it was coming.

Speaker 2 47:38

I mean she'd been upstate several times, yeah, but to be housed for seven years, though, because this is what we're talking about now. We're talking about how the sentencing became lengthy for county jails.

Speaker 3 47:59

Well, here's the thing, though. So once we got—you know, once we had these individuals, we had to start looking at classifying them differently. So like, for instance, her, she was a parolee, right Parolee. We would never make one of our trustees. That was just our rule. I mean, that wasn't like a rule, but it was just kind of a thing, like we didn't make any parolees trustees, so they didn't get to go out to the honor farm. So with this now we're like looking at things like okay, well, she's going to be here seven years. You know, we need to get her into some programs.

Speaker 1 48:25

We need to do, you know, get more yardage, get work time, you know, and if they were cooperative.

Speaker 3 48:30

You know like she was. She was willing to work and wanted to program Cause, I mean, she's going to do seven years in County. You know you want to be doing something and that was the thing is that a lot of people are a lot of the inmates. They didn't want to do County time. They didn't want to do their sentence in County. Smaller yards, commissary, not as good you know, didn't have, they didn't have access to the programs to the, to the medical.

Speaker 3 49:01

I mean we didn't have access to the programs to the medical. I mean we didn't have medical like the prison system. Does you know like, just like checkups? You know mammograms, you know whatever, you know just your typical. You know yearly checkups. That you know, you and I would do Right and we didn't have access to that. I mean, yeah, we could send them out, but it just we weren't prepared for it, Correct.

Speaker 2 49:17

No, basically what you just described was and we did it too as employees we took shortcuts to accommodate the changes that were thrusted upon us. And they became dangerous and unsafe and unsecured. Right, and that's why we've seen a rise in crime not only in the streets, but in correctional facilities.

Speaker 3 49:33

Yeah, so what happened, too, is, once we started getting all these, you know what we would call heavy hitters, you know our more sophisticated inmates that were staying with us for long term well, we started, and then, when we're overcrowded, what do we do? We start kicking out all the low levels, all the low levels, right. So now we need workers, because our workers you know our, our trustees were usually our low level workers. Well, now we have none because because of also because of the props and stuff too. You know, nobody was spending any time in jail. You know our, our lower level criminals nobody was, nobody was staying. So we were having to use, you know, parolees that we would have never, ever made trustees. We were using them, and sometimes it turned out okay and sometimes it didn't.

Speaker 2 50:23

Yeah, but that's not a dice. You want to roll.

Speaker 3 50:25

No, we didn't have a choice. Otherwise nothing would be getting clean. I mean, there'd be no kitchen workers.

Speaker 2 50:34

Which goes back to the feeling of liability. This is all, all bad, but this is what we're doing yeah, yeah so now? Was there an increase in violence during this time?

The Impact of AB-109 on County Jails

Speaker 3 50:44

um, there was, you know, there was a couple incidences that we had um, because they didn't want to stay. You know, people didn't want to stay. If they were non-violent, non-serious, non-sex crimes, right, they were sentenced to county jail. But some of these guys were like, fuck this, I don't want to do my time in county jail, I'll just do a quick. You know, staff assault, you know and get. And then now I'm, now I'm violent, so now I'm going to get. You know, I get a little tiny bit racked on my sins and I'm going to go upstate and I can be with all my homies. So we had one staff assault that I remember. We had one guy try to set his cell on fire, so he got arson charged.

Speaker 3 51:21

So he goes, you know, because they didn't want to stay. You know they didn't want to be with us.

Speaker 2 51:25

I'm so glad you're saying all of this because it's the truth, it's multifaceted, it's a three dimension and it's a different world. Yeah, and it becomes that much more dangerous for the correctional officers and other inmates too, because it's like, hey, if I could kill another inmate just so I could go to state that's what I'm going to do.

Speaker 3 51:43

Oh, yeah, yeah, Also too during that time when we were overcrowded. Obviously you have more med runs going, you have more court going, you have more stuff going on, and we were getting short staffed, you know, because people are getting burned out and and then you know they're just mandatory in overtime and just working everyone to death.

Speaker 2 52:06

So you said it was fun early on. Was this when it began to be unfun fun?

Speaker 3 52:11

Yeah, yeah, I think probably around, I want to say probably for me 2000,. Maybe 16, 15, 16. It wasn't, I mean, it was cause I was still you know, I had just came back on, you know, an 11, 12, 13. So I was just getting back in the mix of it.

Speaker 2 52:33

But Was things from your perspective not making sense to you?

Speaker 3 52:37

Oh yeah, no, it didn't. I mean I understood what was happening. I mean I knew what was happening, I knew you know what was going on.

Speaker 2 52:48

No, you knew that there was a lot of changes, but did you really know what was going on?

Speaker 3 52:53

Like from the top.

Speaker 2 52:54

Yeah.

Speaker 3 52:54

Yeah, it's all about money and politics and that's so crazy that you would be able to grasp that from your point of view, though because I didn't see corruption later on, until later in my career. Oh yeah, that's so it makes sense to me, like why would you, you know, I mean, why would you shift the prison population? It's, I mean it, it was asinine, you know. I mean seriously, you just shifted the, you know, and it looks so great. Oh look, we've reduced our prison population.

Speaker 2 53:23

Look at, us, you know? Oh, you're right, it was the facade. Yeah, it was the facade that was being sold to the public. Hey, we have lesser inmates in prison, lesser inmates in jail and the recidivism rate has reduced, Right when.

Speaker 3 53:37

Yeah, and then when we got so overcrowded, then I think they started passing all the Prop 47, all these props and then we're just kicking everybody out. So now we have nobody in our facility. You know, nobody spends time in jail. So I can see the frustration on all levels, on all levels, like it's frustrating for us when we're getting somebody in and we literally have to just like fingerprint them, process, do all this work and then they're just going right back out the door. And same with you know street cops. You know they're bringing people in. They just, you know they're like I'm not going to arrest that this drunk guy anymore. You know that that's why you got all these. You know people on the streets and stuff that weren't on the streets before. They used to arrest them, you know for 11, 550 or something and bring them in. But now they get arrested for, you know, being under the influence. They're out in four hours and the grand theft.

Speaker 2 54:25

They also changed the grand theft price where it went fucking nuts yeah, yeah, and so there was no consequences.

Speaker 3 54:32

When you have no, no consequences.

Speaker 2 54:34

Okay, you're a mother, oh and happy belated Mother's Day, by the way.

Speaker 3 54:38

Oh, thank you. Yes, thank you, I got my days all screwed up, that's all right, thank you.

Speaker 2 54:41

So you're a mother and you're a former correctional deputy. How important is consequences for people's actions when they misbehave?

Speaker 3 54:50

Oh, extremely important. You don't learn a lesson unless you teach it. You know. But it almost seems, if there's no consequence, like what do you get to lose? You know? Yeah, it seems very common sense, correct, you know?

Speaker 2 55:05

But it just seems like a lot of people don't understand that concept.

Speaker 3 55:08

Well, because a lot of people want to. You know, they want to just sugarcoat everything and, you know, pretend that everything's rainbows and unicorns.

Speaker 2 55:18

Bury their head in the sand.

Speaker 3 55:20

Yeah, it's not, and a lot of times the people that you're dealing with, they don't live in that same world, correct?

Speaker 2 55:28

Elaborate on that. What kind of world, what kind of language do they understand?

Speaker 3 55:32

from your experience, Well, let's put it this way I can tell you politely, or I can tell you ghetto, but either way, you're gonna fucking understand what I said. Facts you know, so so I can speak to you. You know, I I mean, I'm not gonna speak to you know some, uh, you know gangbanger, like you know. Okay, you know we need to do this right you know, I'm gonna tell you hey, get your shit, let's go.

Speaker 2 55:55

You know I mean within reason, absolutely yeah, within reason. Yeah, I mean, especially during a giant melee or a violent encounter. Understand that?

Speaker 3 56:03

move now, yeah right you know, yeah, you don't walk up behind me, you know.

Speaker 3 56:07

I mean, you know, now, that was a huge thing, like you know I would walk into a male housing unit and sometimes, like you know, because a lot of times the females didn't work the male housing units because we were always short, so we'd always end up working, we'd always be in the females. So, you know, as soon as you hit and you're in the male unit, they're like you know, they all want to ask you all kinds of questions or what you know, and I'm like don't run up on me, do not walk behind me. You know the deal. I'm like you know better, like step aside, you know, don't come up up, don't come up on me, like that. You know. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, but they'll try to test you.

Speaker 2 56:40

you know they're always trying to test you to see how far they can go you know, we had a major um issue when body worn cameras came on scene in fuck 2020. Uh, we were the first prison to get them and the administration besides them being corrupt. They were holding staff accountable for cussing on body worn camera and speaking to them exactly how we just described. Yeah, right Now, how realistic is it for officers to be able to speak like that to someone to get somebody to comply?

Speaker 3 57:12

Oh, it's absolutely necessary at times.

Speaker 2 57:15

Correct, you have to know your audience. Right.

Speaker 3 57:16

You absolutely have to know. Now I'm not going to tell the little 80-year-old lady who you know, came in for a DUI to get your shit and let's go, you know. But I mean you know, you have to know your audience.

Speaker 2 57:26

You have to be able to turn it up and turn it down. Yeah, you have to.

Speaker 3 57:28

Yeah, and you have to know who you're dealing with. I mean, and it's not, it's not a disrespect thing. Sometimes it's just. It's just, you know the way that you talk. I mean, you know when you're talking to somebody, you know trying to get your point across and you want to be on the same level sometimes.

Speaker 2 57:43

So Now working in a correctional setting. Did you looking back in hindsight? Did it take a toll on your family life?

Speaker 3 57:53

Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 2 57:54

Can you explain in some situations maybe?

Speaker 3 57:56

how maybe how you talk to your children oh yeah, like, yeah, absolutely, it takes a toll on you. You can say that it doesn't, but it does. Um, yeah, just, I mean sometimes you know you're you're tired cause you've worked graveyard shift 12 hours and you know you're short, your temper short. You know you don't want to put up with stuff. You know, sometimes you're you're you're like wait a minute, these are my kids and these aren't inmates. You know, yeah, you just, it just it's stress and it was a lot of stress and a lot of fatigue, I think.

Speaker 2 58:28

How important is it for correctional staff members to take care of themselves mentally and be able to identify that now so it doesn't ruin their relationships?

Speaker 3 58:39

Oh, it's extremely important. I think mental and physical is huge, huge. I think those like if you can stay physically active, that's going to like greatly help with your mental health. But you know, obviously you know talking to somebody, if you have somebody to talk to. But you know, I think that's the thing is that there's such a stigma. You know we in law enforcement that you know, we, we always have to be tough and strong and and you know we don't want to show weakness, you know. And so I think sometimes when we feel like you know we're struggling with our mental health and we feel weak and that doesn't sit well.

Speaker 2 59:13

I think we're the ones that need it the most because of the environment that we're in A hundred percent.

Speaker 3 59:17

Yeah, absolutely yeah, a hundred percent.

Speaker 2 59:21

What are some healthy coping skills or activities that one could partake in outside of the job?

Speaker 3 59:28

You know they always say you know you should have friends that are, you know, not not. You know not not, you know not in law enforcement. But that's it's really hard sometimes, you know, because you, you, you almost trauma bond with these people, you know trauma bond.

Speaker 2 59:42

Yeah, I'm fucking, I'm stealing that yeah, no, it's a thing.

Speaker 3 59:46

Yeah, no, you, you trauma bond with your partners a lot of times. Um, so, you know, and you end up, you know, nobody gets your sense of humor. You know, because you, you laugh at, yeah, you have you laugh at stuff that is like really sad, but it's just how you cope, you know, cause I'm like how could I just, you know, have seen what I seen and like I mean I got to try to compartmentalize it, you know, so I don't lose my mind, you know. Um, so, yeah, your, your sense of humor, you know. You just you don't trust anybody.

Speaker 3 1:00:13

A lot of times you get kind of like, you just you're kind of I don't want to say paranoid, but what about profiling old white men at the park, don't? You know all a bunch of you know law enforcement, but it is important to have, you know, a good family, support other friends. Besides law enforcement, I'm a big advocate of working out. So that's huge. I mean I think that you're doing a disservice to the job and the career if you do not keep yourself in physical shape. So that's, I mean it's not only great for you know, for your body but it's also good for your mental health.

Speaker 3 1:00:59

But it's good for can save your life for somebody else's. Yeah, Save your life for somebody else's you know, whether it's you, another inmate, another, a partner, whatever you know cause. Ultimately, I mean, that's what you're there. The job is there for the safety and security of the facility. That includes inmates yeah.

Speaker 2 1:01:13

And the public, yeah, yeah. Make sure they don't jump the fucking fence and kill somebody yeah, exactly, yeah, right, I mean it just happened yeah, it happened, oh yeah yeah, um, you mentioned you worked, uh, the ankle monitoring unit. How did, when did that come about?

Speaker 3 1:01:29

oh, we've always had that, or I mean for as long as I can remember, we've always had that program. Um, so it was. It was three programs in one unit. Basically, you could do community service. If you're a really low-level offender, we would send you out to job sites within the county to do work. The next level was to have like a GPS unit on you, so depending on what your crime was. And then we did the scram bracelet, which is the alcohol monitoring bracelet. So anybody obviously that had you know DUIs, we would put them on there. It reads the skin make sure you're not drinking.

Speaker 2 1:02:09

So did you have an office at the jail?

Speaker 3 1:02:11

Yes, we had an office down that was located down at the honor farm, so it was away from the main facility.

Speaker 2 1:02:17

How big is this complex? Can I, can you walk back and forth with a reasonable time?

Speaker 3 1:02:20

No, no, not no, the, the honor farm where our trustees are all at and the kitchen is and all that is like right there out on highway one.

Speaker 2 1:02:28

Okay.

Speaker 3 1:02:28

Um, so you can see it from highway one. The main facility is down the road about I don't know half a mile or so.

Speaker 2 1:02:34

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, I always kind of assumed that was a jail right there.

Speaker 3 1:02:36

No, no, no, no. The whole, the other facilities, all the way down.

Speaker 2 1:02:38

But is there wire? Is there razor wire around the one off of the 101?

Speaker 3 1:02:43

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:02:44

Oh, okay, and that's why.

Speaker 3 1:02:44

I thought it was a jail right there. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:02:55

Now, that to me sounds awesome, because you're not working around the inmates. It was awesome. What were the hours? Banker's hours Pretty much, yeah, awesome.

Speaker 3 1:03:03

But actually I was on call. I was on call, a lot pretty much all the time.

Speaker 2 1:03:07

Do they provide you with a cell phone?

Speaker 3 1:03:10

I did have a cell phone. I had a take-home car Laptop. Yes, I had a laptop I was trying to think yes, I had a laptop. I was trying to think these are all the cool perks.

Speaker 1 1:03:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I had a laptop, I had a cell phone.

Speaker 3 1:03:19

I had a take-home car and then. But I did work a lot of you know, because I mean if ankle monitor's going off, you know somebody's drinking in the middle of the night.

Speaker 2 1:03:29

Did you get paid for that? Yeah, you have to, like, log your hours. Yeah, the on-call pay for that. So wait a minute. How does that work if a dude? There's an ankle monitor that's new to me, though and it tells you that somebody's consuming alcohol? You're responsible for that individual Mm-hmm. So then what?

Speaker 3 1:03:47

Yes, so then I got to go out and go get them.

Speaker 2 1:03:51

No way, yes, no way, that's a whole nother issue.

Speaker 3 1:03:54

So we basically were like it's almost like probation, kind of like probation officers.

Speaker 2 1:04:02

That's the best way I could explain it. What are?

Speaker 3 1:04:04

you tracking him on, just like if they have like a zone that they or a time Like. So they usually had curfews Like okay, so if you work, you know, say they had a job, you know, and they work from eight to five. Well, from five until eight, you know, or the next day they got to be at home you, or the next day they got to be at home you know they had, we would set their schedule up and set a zone.

Speaker 2 1:04:19

So you weren't actively tracking them on like um.

Speaker 3 1:04:22

Yeah, I could if.

Speaker 2 1:04:23

I, I mean yeah, I could.

Speaker 3 1:04:27

Yeah, I could if I needed to, but it would like alert me, like if they're out of their zone, or if they left the house when they weren't supposed to, or they weren't home when they were supposed to.

Speaker 2 1:04:35

You had a gun, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:04:36

Yeah, yeah, so we carry. I'm so old school like PR-24s, but you know, side handle baton, okay. And I mean we had ASP too.

Speaker 2 1:04:47

What did you carry?

Speaker 3 1:04:48

A PR-24. I'm old school, yeah, so and then we yeah, we have weapons, you know obviously a firearm. So anytime we did transportation, whether it's to court, medical or work in home detention, we're carrying.

Speaker 2 1:05:06

Oh, you failed to mention that. So if you, were a regular. If you worked in the dorm and a dude had to go to the court, you guys had an armory where you guys can get a weapon.

Speaker 3 1:05:16

We had our lockers and stuff. We all had our own personal weapons. We weren't issued. We all had our own personal. We weren't issued. We all had our own personal weapons.

Speaker 2 1:05:23

And at what point do you qualify on them?

Speaker 3 1:05:26

We qualify every quarterly.

Speaker 2 1:05:28

Quarterly, so you bring your personal weapon.

Speaker 3 1:05:31

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:05:31

Is there a list that your weapon can be choose from?

Speaker 3 1:05:33

Yes, exactly, they give you a list and they give you a stipend. I think you know, when you first get hired to buy, to purchase a weapon, and they have, you know you can only buy this brand, this. You know the barrel's got to be this long.

Speaker 2 1:05:47

Was there a shooting range on the facility?

Speaker 3 1:05:49

Yes, oh, there was. Yeah, we had a shooting range there.

Speaker 2 1:05:51

Yeah, so every quarterly was it up to each individual, or did you guys have like quarterly classes that would go out?

Speaker 3 1:06:00

No, we had what we called qualifying, so every quarter we would be required to go out there and qualify, so like while you're on duty. You know they would just relieve as best we could.

Speaker 2 1:06:08

Were there people that sucked at shooting and failed to qualify? Oh yeah, Okay, so it's everywhere.

Speaker 3 1:06:12

Yeah, yeah, not too much, though, not too terribly bad. But yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 1:06:18

How was the shooting course? Like? Three yards, seven yards, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:06:22

It depends on the time of year. Like you know, they set up different stuff. Each time was always different, so our main qualification was like yeah, three, seven, 15, 25.

Speaker 2 1:06:35

Did you find it to be difficult?

Speaker 3 1:06:37

You know I'm not a. I'm not a. Let me just put it this way I will hit you. You're going to get hit. I will hit you. It may not be in the zone I'm supposed to but I will hit you. It's good enough for me, yeah. Let's just put it that way Okay, you will get hit. Yeah, I'm not like. I'm not like a marksman. You know, my, my, my grouping isn't like this, but I mean it may be a little bit more like this, but you're going to get hit, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:07:08

It's probably my most interesting interview. I've heard so much for stuff for the first time that makes total sense to me.

Ankle Monitoring Program and Career Changes

Speaker 3 1:07:12

I've never heard of putting Well. I used to tell inmates that.

Speaker 2 1:07:22

I'm like listen, if you run, I'm like I will, I'm going to hit you. It may not be where you want me to hit you, I'm gonna hit you. Oh shit, so yeah, okay, cool. So now I know you got a gun and now you're in the specialized unit. You got a drunk guy, old howards, out there. Now what is your role? What is your duties?

Speaker 3 1:07:32

so, um, I would, we would, I would partner up um when we had to go get somebody like say somebody was violating because there was three of us in the unit. So then one of my partners, we would go out and go out and retrieve them.

Speaker 2 1:07:46

What did that consist of? Hey, put your hands up, come here, walk back towards me.

Speaker 3 1:07:51

Yeah, it was a shit show. Let me pat you down. Yeah, it was a shit show sometimes.

Speaker 2 1:07:54

I'm sure they weren't thrilled.

Speaker 3 1:07:56

No Well, yeah, but sure they weren't thrilled.

Speaker 3 1:07:57

no well, yeah, but I mean they knew we were you know, they knew, I mean they knew, if they drink most of the time, by the time you, by the time you get to them, like you know it's it's been a while, so they're not. They may not necessarily be still intoxicated, you know, but, um, most of them be like, yeah, I drank, I mean most majority of the time, but you'd be surprised how many people show up to get on the program shit-faced what do you mean, shit-faced drunk, to like get on the program shit-faced.

Speaker 2 1:08:17

What do you?

Speaker 3 1:08:18

mean Shit-faced drunk To like get on the program. Like they have to come, like they have to apply to the program, like while they're in custody generally, or sometimes when they're out, and then we approve them. And then we set a day, like an appointment, like, hey, you know, like you would go to probation or something, hey, come down on this day we're going to, we'll book you in on the program because you're you're technically in custody but you're not in custody.

Speaker 2 1:08:39

Oh, I didn't know that that's what they're doing now. Yeah, so you're doing that now with California lifers, right Lifers.

Speaker 3 1:08:45

Yeah, so you're in custody. So you're on our books as being in custody, but you're out, you know you're out so sketchy.

Speaker 2 1:08:52

That's so sketchy for me because you capable of.

Speaker 3 1:08:55

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, it started out like you know we had. It was mostly, you know, duis low level, like really low, low level.

Speaker 2 1:09:04

As a matter of fact, man, right before I resigned, right before I was a Lieutenant in the governor's office, called this one inmate, said congratulations, inmate. So-and-so, you're our first candidate ever for this new program. We know you're going to do great, we just know it. He's like yeah, I won't let you down. I'm like let me look this dude up, let me see what this guy did. He lived across the street from a lady that had a child, like in the first grade, and told them I'll babysit your kids, your kid, and he would molest them with his boyfriend. And now this asshole is on the streets now with an ankle monitor and the governor of Austin thinks it's a fucking great idea.

Speaker 3 1:09:40

Yeah, no, it's not a great idea and that that was one of the issues that we that I had personally is later on. You know there was a three year, three year assignment in that unit and in the beginning, you know, it was just low level DUIs and you know, maybe petty theft, you know crimes or whatever, maybe somebody got in trouble for some dope or something, just real low level stuff. You know first timers, um. But then later on we started putting um, uh, child pornography people on and that really really bothered me. It really bothered me because I always read the reports. You know cause. I want to know who I'm dealing with. You know. I want to know I mean any of them, all, all the people that were on my program. I wanted to know who I was dealing with, like what happened. You know what the what the situation was.

Speaker 3 1:10:26

So the first few times I would start reading these reports on these, you know, these child pornography, and they're very explicit. You know they give all the details of what's on the videos and this and that, and I couldn't do it anymore, like I couldn't read through it. So I would read the report up until the description part. I'd skip over that and then I'd go, you know, read the rest of it, because I couldn't get those images out of my head and it, it, it bothered me, like really bothered me, and it bothered me that we were putting these guys on this program and the guys that were trying to meet up with you know 14-year-old, you know boy or 14-year-old girl, you know that they did sting operations on, then we just go and put them on an ankle monitor.

Speaker 2 1:11:04

Oh, that's fucking pissing me off.

Speaker 3 1:11:07

Oh, it made me so upset Like I almost left at that point. I think that was the part of my career that I just really was just disgusted with the whole system, you know cause they were so they were. It felt like they were so worried about how many people we hadn't cut. Like they were trying to keep yeah, they were trying to keep everybody out of jail that they were willing to sacrifice.

Speaker 2 1:11:30

you know, just, I mean Well, because at that point it becomes a moral conflict.

Speaker 3 1:11:34

It was a very for me it was a huge moral conflict cause I had to go in these people's homes. Oh, I mean I had was a very.

Speaker 2 1:11:38

For me it was a huge moral conflict because I had to go in these people's homes. Oh, I had to. I mean, I had to see I couldn't do it.

Speaker 3 1:11:41

Yeah, oh I mean I had to, I had to get myself my head in a different space right and and I actually like, I mean, I had to like, I had to like talk myself into being able to talk, you know, professionally let's just say professionally. I'm getting fucking pissed off right now because, like I, I totally get it yeah, and it was, and you know it was like I mean, some of these guys would have thousands of pictures and videos, like thousands, you know, and they were just just disgusting fuck man, fuck, this is.

Speaker 2 1:12:14

uh, I know, right before we started filming I was at, I was telling you, when I had my daughter, my job changed for me, because then I started seeing child molesters in a different, worse light than I was already seeing them. But now it's almost become personal. Did you experience the same thing?

Speaker 3 1:12:33

Oh, 100%, yeah, 100%. From the time that I left the first time when I didn't have kids and I came back and I had kids at that point, um, you know, I mean, obviously I was older too, you know more life experience, and you know I was probably, I was probably more patient. I think you know, because of having kids too, you know I was more patient with people. But yeah, you look at. You definitely look at certain people at a different light and and you perform your job a little bit differently too.

Speaker 2 1:12:59

By the book, by the book.

Speaker 3 1:13:01

Yeah, yeah, and I mean, you're not. You know you're like. You know, when you're younger you're more apt to like, maybe you know, yeah, and when you're older and you have kids, you're like okay, Less poker.

Speaker 2 1:13:15

Yeah, exactly Like fuck it. How difficult is it to attempt to remain professional when speaking to a monster like that.

Speaker 3 1:13:26

It's very difficult. It was very difficult for me. I mean, I really had to like really get in my head and, like I said, force myself to speak professionally and I probably almost speak more professionally and very business-like and almost like no emotion, because I I was afraid like if, if the emotion came out, I was gonna like be like you're a piece of shit, yeah you know so now we're dealing with those individuals.

Speaker 2 1:13:56

Did you notice that their demeanor was more like softer? No, they're fucking entitled. Oh, they had an entitled, oh very entitled oh yeah, very entitled, I've been sued by a few of them.

Speaker 3 1:14:05

Yeah, very entitled, like you know. Why are you treating me like that? You know I can't believe I have to have an ankle monitor on, you know, oh, fuck. Like just very entitled, which is it's crazy to me.

Speaker 2 1:14:16

You just reminded me of something. I was working in the hospital one time when I was a young officer and the MA needed to use the bathroom, take a dump in the hospital, and I had the door cracked and I was standing in the doorway and he's like, hey, can't you shut the door? Can I get some fucking privacy around here? And I looked at the dude's file, fucking L&L with an under 14. I said you didn't give that little fucking girl privacy, motherfucker. And then we kind of got at it.

Speaker 3 1:14:40

You know what I mean. Well, there's no sense of privacy. There's no sense of privacy in jail is what I say.

Speaker 2 1:14:45

Right, wow, you're taking me back.

Speaker 3 1:14:50

Yeah, yeah. Well, and when you guys did the hospital, you guys always had two people right.

Speaker 2 1:14:55

Correct.

Speaker 3 1:14:55

Okay, so that brings me to so we never had two people. In the hospital. No.

Speaker 2 1:15:01

No.

Speaker 3 1:15:04

What about?

Speaker 2 1:15:04

after AB 109? Still no.

Speaker 3 1:15:06

No, only if it was like a two officer move individual.

Speaker 2 1:15:10

No, that's how an escape happens.

Speaker 3 1:15:12

Yeah, high risk, something like that. Oh yeah, we had escapes, yeah, but yeah, no, I mean. So it's like you can't even go to the bathroom. Because I don yeah, um, but yeah, no, I mean. So it's like you. You can't even go to the bathroom because I don't want to use the same bathroom as, as you know, somebody who's sick is using and so the bathroom is like down the hall, you know, I mean and you can't.

Speaker 3 1:15:28

So what do you really really, really really have to go, well, I mean they're cuffed up to the bed and I would just tell the nurse look, I gotta go to the bathroom there. I mean I would make sure they're all you know know they'd be ankle, you know cuffed. I mean they weren't going anywhere but I'm like, hey, I got to go use the bathroom. Sorry, you know Damn.

Speaker 2 1:15:42

I didn't know that was a thing, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:15:44

Yeah, it was, I mean very rarely, so when would they go In town, like is there a hospital?

Speaker 2 1:15:54

Yeah, local PD or sheriffs like good working relationships.

Speaker 3 1:15:57

We were the sheriffs.

Speaker 2 1:15:58

No, I know. But the ones on the streets like did you guys have good like rapport? Oh, there was always the you know Beefing. Oh yeah, okay, always yeah.

Speaker 3 1:16:06

But yeah, but I mean no for the most part everybody's. You know good people.

Speaker 2 1:16:12

Man, I hate that we went down that path of talking about what we did, but I mean it's not pretty.

Speaker 3 1:16:16

No, it's not no.

Speaker 2 1:16:17

Would you recommend the field of corrections to anyone that's not in it currently?

Speaker 3 1:16:23

You know before, I would have said yes all day long. Now I just don't, I don't know. I mean, you know it's still a good job in terms of you know, actually even the benefits in retirement aren't even that great anymore.

Speaker 2 1:16:38

2.5 of 57? Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, it's't even that great anymore.

Speaker 3 1:16:40

2.5 of 57. Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, it's not even that great anymore. So probably not. Probably not, you know, until we have a change, until whoops, until we have like a, you know, until the the public and and law enforcement gets seen back into a positive light again. Yeah, I would definitely say no.

Speaker 2 1:16:58

You mentioned law enforcement in a positive light, Because for a while it got put in a really bad bad light due to the mainstream media that nobody watches anymore, Because they realized they were feeding fucking lies to the people. Where do you think we're at now as a government, as a country with law enforcement?

Speaker 3 1:17:18

I think it's starting to. You know, I feel like the tide's starting to turn a little bit.

Speaker 2 1:17:24

Barely huh. It's not there yet. I feel the same way.

Speaker 3 1:17:26

Yeah, it's not there yet, but I think it's starting to turn. And I think that's what happens. Is that the you know politicians and you know even the local, you know our local agencies. They get all this pressure, you know, and they just feel like they have to, you know, be the puppets and do what they're told, or do you know, so that they look, so that we look good. You know we look good on paper, and yet it's putting everybody at risk.

Speaker 2 1:17:52

Meanwhile, the world, the world's, burning down.

Speaker 3 1:17:53

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's, it's.

Speaker 2 1:17:57

What do you think will cause the change? The support from the public, the corrupt leaders being held accountable, or the newer staff? God, I love the newer staff, but they break my heart. The newer staff actually rising to the call.

Speaker 3 1:18:16

I think, I think all three, but I think the public. For me personally, I think that the perception that the public has has a huge influence. But, yeah, obviously, getting corrupt people out of government, for sure, you know. And then, yeah, new staff, whoo, I can't imagine being a. I can't imagine being a CO right now as a young, you know young CO, especially with the, just the generation, you know it's different.

Speaker 2 1:18:45

But the worst part about it, man, is there's nobody with experience left.

Speaker 3 1:18:49

Right, right, and that's what happened with us is that, you know, a lot of our old timers that were really really good, they all started retiring and we weren't replacing them, you know, and so we had this influx of just a ton of people leave and then a ton of new people come on, and so there was more new people than there was old people, and so, yeah, I just, you know, our training just all went to shit. Personally, I mean, I think you know training they were pushing. I felt like they were Give hugs.

Speaker 3 1:19:20

Well, and they were pushing, you know, the trainees to go out onto the floor on their own sooner than they were ready is what I felt like.

Speaker 2 1:19:30

Oh, you know what else was. A big one was and I remember this the verbal de-escalation.

Speaker 3 1:19:37

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 1:19:37

The way that the administration hampered that in. They did it all wrong.

Speaker 3 1:19:40

Can you please come out of your cell? Worse than that, oh, can you please. When they're getting punched in the face saying can you please stop hitting me?

Speaker 2 1:19:46

Yeah, exactly, and it's like hey motherfucker.

Speaker 3 1:19:48

Yeah, exactly, oh yeah, I mean like back in the day you and everybody would go in there, come out. You didn't have as many problems. And now you have these guys and they're. You know you're negotiating, You're here.

Speaker 2 1:20:08

Let me give you a candy bar, you know Can you please elaborate on when it's time to stop talking and when it's time to start action?

Speaker 3 1:20:20

Yeah, after three times. I ask you.

Speaker 2 1:20:23

I mean more from like self-defense, imminent threat use of force policy yeah, absolutely. Because you'd be surprised Some younger staff. They're so freaking scared of getting fired, they would rather take a punch to the mouth, and that's the thing I mean, even some older staff. Correct. Oh fuck, yeah, 100 know has gotten that way. All right, I'm done bashing the new staff, but yeah, it's the older staff as well.

Speaker 3 1:20:44

Absolutely. I mean because I started feeling that. I mean, I started feeling that towards the end of my career and I kept thinking to myself I'm going to get fired for doing my job, for doing what I have been taught. You know, I'm going to get fired for that and I don't want to lose everything I've worked for. I don't want to, I don't want to lose it and I just figured at that point I would just leave.

Speaker 2 1:21:06

What year was that?

Speaker 3 1:21:07

2020.

Speaker 2 1:21:08

Plus, there was COVID too, so you were short to retirement age and you decided to walk away.

Speaker 3 1:21:15

Yes.

Speaker 2 1:21:15

Did you type up a letter of resignation?

Speaker 3 1:21:17

Yes, yeah, I left on good standing.

Speaker 2 1:21:19

Me too.

Speaker 3 1:21:20

Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:21:23

And was that a hard decision to make, I think, with COVID if COVID probably hadn't hit, I probably would have stayed longer. I think it was the combination of that, you know, because I mean just the way that you know the. I mean having to wear a mask for 12 hours a day, and you know, I could have an inmate in the car with me and not have a mask on, but as soon as I hit the jail we had to have a mask on. You know, it just didn't make sense to me and I was really starting to feel myself starting to buck the system, to buck the system, and I knew I was going to probably get myself in trouble. Um, because sometimes I, you know, have kind of vocal about things. So and then just, you know, just dealing with inmates Like I, I don't, I don't like disrespect and you know so if you're disrespectful to me, you know, just female version of me, yeah, yeah, so your your vocal did.

Speaker 2 1:22:21

At any point in time you let your superiors know like, hey, this isn't even making sense, oh yeah bullshit.

Speaker 3 1:22:25

Yeah, not, I mean like my sergeants and stuff, but they didn't you know they're just kind of just like whatever, yeah, we gotta do what we gotta do when we're told. You know right and you know, and so yeah, I mean it, I I didn't. I was afraid they were going to make me get the shot which. I didn't want to get, and you know the testing. I'm like, I'm like I'm not even sick. Why do you all need to? You know, you don't need to put anything up my nose.

Speaker 2 1:22:50

I want to get philosophical with you. Okay, you mentioned we got to do as we're told, right? Then I think about Nazi Germany how that was able to happen. At what point does somebody draw a line in the sand and say you know what? No, we're not doing? That you think it boils down to each individual's integrity, values and moral belief system.

Speaker 3 1:23:09

I think so yeah, I was going to say it's probably on an individual basis because, you know, one person may be able to take something longer than another person can, or one person's moral encompass may know encompass maybe not quite what mine is, or you know boundaries or whatever. You know it's just at what point I had to ask myself you know, is my mental health, my physical health, worth this? You know at what point is money worth it? You know it, it just didn't. It didn't seem like it was worth it anymore.

Speaker 2 1:23:41

The juice was not worth the squeeze, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:23:43

Yeah, and so you know, and I was a few years away from collecting my pension, so I was like, were you doing the math?

Speaker 2 1:23:48

I'm sure you strategize.

Speaker 3 1:23:49

Oh yeah, I was doing the math. I was like I could ride this out. You know, I got to move out of state. I have to move from the state, you know did you initially move?

Speaker 2 1:23:57

Yes, okay, because that's what I was going to ask. I don't want to ask too many personal questions, but I would like to know your planning, because a lot of people are still stuck on the job but a lot of people want to get out, but don't know how to get out.

The Toll of Corrections and Final Reflections

Speaker 3 1:24:07

Yeah, it was a—I'm not going to get too into the personal details about it, but everything just kind of aligned. Okay, you know.

Speaker 3 1:24:15

So you know, at first I was fighting, moving out of state, and then everything just kind of came into alignment and I was like this is what I need to do and it all just fell into place. Like everything fell into place and I mean literally by the time I, when I made my decision, when I officially made my decision, to the time I left was only a couple of months. I mean, I mean, I got up and got out.

Speaker 2 1:24:39

Were there? Others that left as well? Oh yeah, there was, oh yeah.

Speaker 3 1:24:42

We had a whole, a whole influx of people leave.

Speaker 2 1:24:46

It was like an uprising, huh.

Speaker 3 1:24:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:24:48

Damn. How about the morale? What was the morale like amongst the troops?

Speaker 3 1:24:53

Probably the same as most departments. You know, yeah, what morale. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty I mean, yeah, it's pretty. I mean it's pretty bad. I the worst times for morale was when we were getting mandatory overtimed on a daily basis. I mean they had a sign-up sheet so if you didn't sign up on it you were going to get. You were voluntold, you know, or like you were. You could sign up yourself and pick a good spot, pick a good spot.

Speaker 2 1:25:19

if you, you know or like you could sign up yourself and pick a good spot.

Speaker 3 1:25:20

Pick a good spot if you wanted, you know. Pick a day or time, you know a day that you wanted. Or you could just get mandatory. Well, but you could get mandatory any day, any day of the week. I mean it didn't matter. I mean people were like zombies and that was an unsafe time.

Speaker 2 1:25:38

What were the hours of a double shift, like 12?

Speaker 3 1:25:43

Well, we did, yeah, we did, you know, 0700 to 1900.

Speaker 2 1:25:47

No, I mean how many hours total were these shifts?

Speaker 3 1:25:50

Well, you can do 16. 16 were the most. Yeah, 16.

Speaker 2 1:25:54

Would it be 16, 16, 8, or can you do three 16s in a row?

Speaker 3 1:25:59

They probably wouldn't. I mean, I'm sure there's people that did it, but I think they had a cap. I don't think they would do that. But you would get forced on your day off, basically. So you'd have to work a 12 hour on your day off. It wasn't just being on the day that you're there, no, you had to come in on your days off. So we worked three 12ves and a rotating eight um at the you know, towards you know, or the second part of my career, um, so I'll actually in the first part of my career. But, um, yeah, you got to come in on this day, like, well, I have a vacation planned, or you couldn't get your whole vacation off. You know, you booked your trip to Hawaii or whatever. And they're like oh yeah, we got all the days off except for this one right in the middle and they would like hold you to coming in.

Speaker 2 1:26:52

What happens if you didn't?

Speaker 3 1:26:53

We had people quit.

Speaker 2 1:26:55

People quit.

Speaker 3 1:26:56

Yeah, there was people that quit People quit. Yeah, there was people that quit. They were like fuck this, Like younger people, you know, that kind of were just like fuck this, I don't want to do this. You know, you promised me Saturday, Sunday's bill. Yeah, it wasn't even Saturday, sunday, it was just like you know. I mean, they took a legit vacation off and they're like, oh no, sorry, you can't have this day off. Yeah, oh shit, yeah I like those ones that come in and they're like I want—.

Speaker 2 1:27:17

You are violating my safe speech right now.

Speaker 3 1:27:19

Yeah, the ones that come in, they come on and they're like what? I don't have Saturday and Sundays off. The first five years of my career I didn't have a holiday or a Saturday and Sunday off.

Speaker 2 1:27:28

I had 16 years and my days off were Tuesday, Wednesday, yeah.

Speaker 3 1:27:31

I mean, which I didn't mind. Actually I didn't mind because back then it was fun. The weekends were the fun time, you know. That was when all the good stuff was happening, All the drunks and stuff were coming in, oh shit. You know, but yeah, it was crazy.

Speaker 2 1:27:45

With all your experience and looking back in hindsight, what would you tell if you were like a brand new officer? All over again. What would you tell yourself Overall in life?

Speaker 3 1:27:56

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 1:27:58

Meaning you know, as it pertains to the career.

Speaker 3 1:28:02

Um, whoo, I would definitely say, make your health a priority, like for sure, cause that's where I definitely neglected, you know, was my health, I think. I mean I, I mean I stayed active, physically fit, but I just, I just think, like, overall, the stress, you know, the stress of everything, um, I think, took a toll on my body. In fact, I know it did you know?

Speaker 2 1:28:26

Facts. Facts no I can relate.

Speaker 3 1:28:29

Yeah, so yeah, that that definitely. I would say definitely, yeah, take care of yourself, you know, and and the job here's a here's a thing, you know, some people get so into their job. You know what I mean? And it's good to have good work ethic.

Speaker 3 1:28:42

I'm not saying you know, not have good work ethic, but I mean, that's just like that's their whole life, you know, and there's more to life than your job, and when you leave, nobody's going to. It don't matter, like you're just a number, you're just a number, you're just a body. When it comes down to it, they're going to replace you.

Speaker 2 1:29:01

Not just that, it's like, hey, you need to not make the job your life, because when you leave, you're going to lose your identity.

Speaker 3 1:29:08

Right.

Speaker 2 1:29:16

And for men that's especially, I think especially hard, for men more so than probably women.

Speaker 3 1:29:24

There's a lot of female viewers that watch this in corrections. What are some tips about them? Sending personal boundaries amongst male inmates. A big thing for me was I actually my uniforms were not tight. Say that again, please. My uniforms were not tight. Do not wear tight clothing.

Speaker 2 1:29:39

These nurses be dressing like they're going to the club looking for dick.

Speaker 3 1:29:41

No, disrespect, no I mean, and I have a lot of makeup on today, like when I went to work I didn't wear very much makeup. I mean because they notice if you change your lipstick, they'll be like, oh hey, co, you got a new lipstick on today. What the hell?

Speaker 3 1:29:52

I ain't even seen you you know like you know it's, it's crazy, like how much you know. I mean, that's all they have is time to study you. So, yeah, you know, just you know, yeah, definitely set your boundaries, you know, don't let anything slide, because if you do, they're going to push. They're going to push Just like I mean even with you know, like even with, I'm sure, with male officers, same thing you know, they're going to see how, how, how much they can get.

Speaker 3 1:30:22

Um, yeah, Makeup for me, you know, I mean it's okay to wear a little bit of makeup, but you don't need to look like you're going to the club, um, you know, tight clothing, stuff like that. You just don't want to draw attention to yourself. You want to be professional and so I like I always I mean I look totally different in uniform than I do out of uniform. Like, I have my hair in a bun. I mean, you know, I don't wear my hair down because I just think that that is one. I think it's unprofessional too, I think it's something they'll grab onto, and so I always wear my hair in a bun.

Speaker 3 1:30:55

And, yeah, and just setting your boundaries. I mean you have to establish boundaries and that comes a lot, I think, with just having that command presence, Because that right there is going to scream, you know, hey, you know we don't want to push with her, you know, and when you are physically in shape, you like come off differently than you know. So staying in shape is a huge thing too. I feel like it's. It's a huge part of the job and it's something that I used to tell my kids. I used to say, look, I have to go to the gym because it's part of my job, it's going to keep me safe, it's going to keep other people safe. So I just like included that as like, this is part of my job, or working out, whatever it was, whether I was running, whatever I was doing, you know the time.

Speaker 2 1:31:38

So Was it tough to balance motherhood and that career.

Speaker 3 1:31:42

Oh my gosh, yes, I don't even know how I did it. I look back and I don't even know how I did it. Like I don't even know, Like it's a blur and I'm like I yeah.

Speaker 2 1:31:52

And we all do it for our kids. Oh yeah, definitely.

Speaker 3 1:31:54

Oh, yeah, I mean, I worked crazy hours when I didn't have my kids, you know, so that I could try to work as much as possible. You know, and just you know. Yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 2 1:32:04

Well, I want to thank you for coming on the show. Was there any last word you want to say to the crowd?

Speaker 3 1:32:09

Not that I can think of we covered everything. Yeah, we covered a lot of stuff. Yeah, definitely. So again, thank you for flying out here and sharing that experience, flying out here and sharing that experience I appreciated that Absolutely. It's been a pleasure. Thanks.

Speaker 2 1:32:20

Well, there you guys have it, folks. Another banger for you guys. If you like what you saw, make sure you hit that subscribe button. Love you.

Speaker 1 1:32:35

Keep pushing forward. I'm here, hector's legend, incredible, living life Raw, never been tamed, from the hood to the pen. Truth entails pen. Hector Bravo, unhinged. Story never ends.