Hector Bravo UNHINGED
Official Hector Bravo Podcast
Hector Bravo UNHINGED
Secrets of an Undercover Cop
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Manny, a former Fresno PD officer and undercover narcotics detective, shares his remarkable journey from Mexican immigrant working in agricultural fields to infiltrating drug cartels and conducting high-stakes operations in the dangerous world of narcotics trafficking.
• Born in Zacatecas, Mexico, Manny immigrated to the US at age four and began working in agricultural fields at age 10
• Parents instilled values of hard work and education, telling him to "get educated so you don't have to be here"
• Started police career in King City before moving to Fresno PD
• Despite being new to Fresno, was quickly recruited to specialized gang unit (MAGIC) due to previous experience
• Worked undercover for over 6 years, first with gangs then with high-level drug traffickers
• Conducted undercover operations posing as a buyer for drugs and firearms
• Emphasized command presence, communication skills, and report writing as essential police skills
• Described tactics for maintaining cover, including positioning himself as a "businessman" rather than a user
• Provided insights into drug trafficking organization structure, pricing changes, and cartel operations
• Encountered Santa Muerte altars in dealers' homes, noting those followers were often the most violent
• Was involved in shootouts, including an operation that resulted in one suspect deceased and one injured
• Now works as a background investigator for police candidates
• Advises new officers to maintain integrity, follow policy, stay within the law, and continuously improve their skills
If you're interested in a career in law enforcement, make sure you understand what you're getting into. This isn't an 8-to-5 job - there will be mandatory overtime, missed family events, and high-stress situations. Always have a Plan B, just in case it doesn't work out.
Introduction to Former Undercover Cop Manny
Speaker 1Hector Bravo. Unhinged Chaos is now in session. Welcome back to our channel, the Warriors. We are still growing. Today, another banger for you guys. I have none other than Manny, a former Fresno PD police officer and former narcotic undercover cop. That's right, fresno PD. What up, manny? How's it going? Man, pretty good. Thank you for the invite.
Speaker 2Oh, thanks for having me First time in podcasting, never done it before, hey bro, like I was telling you earlier, it's 2025.
Speaker 1This is what people do now, and thanks to your son for hooking it up, man, via email.
Speaker 2Okay, thank you for the invite once again. Absolutely it, okay. Thank you for the invite once again.
Speaker 1Absolutely. It's a little pleasure to be here. For sure, bro, you said you were born in Mexico.
Speaker 2Yes, I was born in Mexico, in Zacatecas, okay, and that's where my roots came. I came to the United States when I was four years old.
Speaker 2Do you remember anything from up until the age of four? No, not really I remember. The only thing that I remember is leaving where we lived at in Zacatecas, then coming to Tijuana. Okay, while my dad, you know, obviously went through the legal system and so he could get our legal resident cards so we could come across into the United States, and that took about almost 12 months. So I lived in TJ for almost a year.
Speaker 1I'm starting to realize, dude. I interview a lot of people that have a background from Mexico or other countries, and you know, hearing this whole process is very interesting, dude.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean that was the process. You know it wasn't like obviously we could have came across, it would have been maybe easier or you know, obviously the expenses were there, but we went through the legal system. That's good. My dad was able to get our legal residence. Like I said, it took almost like a year. So then once he had them, obviously we all of us I remember going to the United States Embassy in Tijuana and we were able to get our resident cards there and we came across. Where did you guys go? Monterey? No, from there I remember going to, we went to Santa Paula where my dad had relatives Where's that at.
Speaker 2It's like at the LA area. Okay, we went there for about five months and then from there, we ended up moving to Salinas, salinas, yeah, we moved to Salinas and we were there for about a year, and after Salinas, after Salinas, then what we did is we moved to King City. Okay, and that's where you know, obviously I was raised at, that's where.
Speaker 1I went to school. How far is King City from?
Speaker 2Fresno, but depends Where's King City from Fresno, but depends If you go through 152 down south 101, it takes about three and a half to four hours.
Speaker 1Oh dude, that's pretty far.
Speaker 2But if you cross over 198 through Clinga it's about two hours.
Speaker 1Now growing up.
Speaker 2Were there any gangs during that time period when I was growing up, not so much early on when I was in junior high. It got more like when I was in junior high. It got more like when I was in towards the high school years. Then you started to see a lot of you know teens get into what they called gangs. Back there it was like more like sureños norteños, but I was never interested in that.
Speaker 1What is the reason that you never got interested in? Were your parents deterring you from that lifestyle? Or it just never crossed paths?
Speaker 2You know what One of us, our parents, really instilled doing the right thing, the values and morals of the family. They always told us that whatever decisions we made, positive or negative, if you made negative decisions you were going to have consequences. So they kind of kept us away from that. The other thing, what they did is in a very early age I think I was maybe like 11 years old we would be every summer. If we didn't go to summer school, we would end up going to the fields and work in the agriculture. Fields. At what age? At 10, 11. Do you remember that? Yes, I remember it. I worked picking chilies, tomates. I remember doing a little bit of the grapes, but it was more tomatoes, chilies, and we didn't do a whole lot. But then the garlic came and that's where we would do all our summers at.
Speaker 1You're a father now. What life lesson do you think that was instilling in you back then?
Speaker 2Hard work, hard work. That's one of the things that I instilled in my children is one of the things is whatever you decide to do is be a hard worker. Don't complain and always let your job, your work ethic, do the talking for you.
Speaker 1You sound like an older version of me, man.
Speaker 2I like that and I tell my kids that's it. I said are you always going to have problems at work? Absolutely, absolutely. Would you be sometimes kind of put to the side somewhat discriminated? Absolutely, but why complain about it? Do something about it, right? I always tell my kids. One thing that I honestly could say that I didn't do throughout my career in law enforcement is promote. I never promote it. Things happen for a reason, though.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's true and for a reason um, I think that's the only regret I have. And I tell my, my kids now one of my eldest is actually works for the sheriff's office. So I tell him if you don't like something where you're at, you want to it promote so you could change it.
Speaker 1True, but it's a big bureaucracy though man. It's a machine to try to change something.
Speaker 2Yeah, it is in a sense, but I think if you do it the right way and do it the good way, the good intentions, it always works, even though there's some bureaucracy sometimes, I think if you do it for the better, it's always accepted. True, when you were working for the better, it's always accepted.
Speaker 1True when you were working in the field. Were they just locals working in the fields or were they also out of people?
Speaker 2I remember there were people that would come from other states, like Texas would have Washington, oregon. There were people from other states that would come and work in the fields. They would do seasonals so they would follow the seasons. So when they would come to, you know, obviously they would come to California into the Salinas Valley. They were following their agriculture and the seasons. So they would come here and then after it was done, obviously in the Salinas Valley, then they would go back to their areas to do their agriculture up in the you know Washington, the areas to do the their agriculture up in the um, you know washington oregon, which is has to do with apples and stuff like that.
Speaker 1So your apples, cherries up there. Yeah, I just thought of an important question. Um, they were teaching you hard work, but did that come with any rewards or incentives? What was the? Was there a gratification at the end of that?
Speaker 2yes, it was, and it was a very good. It's a valid point that I even pass on to my kids. Um, obviously I could tell you my father and my mother, um, were you know, when they grew up in mexico? They were not, they didn't go to school. My dad went to like third grade, obviously. My mom went, I think, to like fifth grade yeah so they weren't really educated.
Speaker 2So when they came to the united states they obviously they had to work in the, in the fields and labor. So my dad and my mom would always say if you never want to be where we're at, there's one thing you could do is educate yourself, go to school and get a career, so you don't have to be here. If you don't want to go to school, you're going to end up here with us. So you don't have to be here. If you don't want to go to school, you're going to end up here with us. Wow, so that was for us. That was the incentive is not to go work in the fields, and I could tell you it was a hard work Every summer from there on out, when I was 11, 12, 13, I would work clipping garlic Every summer, I would clip garlic.
Speaker 1I like that. You explained that to me, man, because the way my brain was thinking as you're telling me this is like hey, you better take me to go buy some pizza after this, some ice cream. But you're like nah, the lesson is that if you don't get your shit together and get an education, you're going to end up right here.
Speaker 2That was it. That was always the lesson that my parents always told us, and that's what I teach my kids.
Speaker 1I like it bro.
Speaker 2If you don't want to have a career, then hey, just after high school, go, start working wherever you want. You're not going to like the job you're going to get. You want a good job, the jobs you like. You have to be educated.
Speaker 1I like it, bro, I like it. So, dude, clearly you went from working in the field at the age of 10 and 11 to becoming a police officer. What got triggered in there between?
Speaker 2You know I was always. I always liked the idea of being in law enforcement, ever since I was a little kid.
Speaker 2From television shows, yeah, television shows, but also from. I remember hearing stories when I was, you know, when I was small, young, from like my parents, my dad saying that you saying that they had family that were police officers in Mexico. Okay, so that was kind of like I would hear it, but also from the television shows. I liked it, obviously. As I grew up and started going to junior high, I started playing sports and through the sports, especially through golf, I met. Obviously, you played golf, yeah, I played golf when I was in high school. Wow, dude.
Speaker 2Yeah, I was probably one of the only Mexicans that played there.
Speaker 1Bro, like I'm just really, as I'm getting to learn your story, I'm like, hey, this guy was born in Mexico, migrated over here, worked in the fields and now he's playing golf and then becomes a cop. Bro, like you're literally the definition of you can do anything if you apply yourself right, regardless of your backgrounds or circumstance.
Speaker 2Right and I think there's like nowadays, there's always a misconception. Uh oh, I can't do this because of a, b or c, but it's not true, the only person that could keep you from ever accomplishing anything in life uh, with whether it's education, career is yourself. Facts, the facts, that's it. You are. The one that blocks yourself, that keeps from succeeding, is yourself Did you ever serve in the military?
Childhood and Working in the Fields
Speaker 1No, not in the. No, I didn't. I say that because they embed that in you in the military. That's something that they embed into, um, embed into your brain, but, like your parents, did an excellent job of raising you, bro.
Speaker 2I mean I never, I just didn't like the military.
Speaker 1I'll be honest with you no, that quote I wasn't directing about the military. I'm saying that the mindset of like, hey man, you can accomplish anything right as long as you give it your all yeah, and you know, like I said, that was the instillment that our parents taught us.
Speaker 2It's like nobody could stop what you want to do but yourself. Did you have siblings? Yes, I did. I had seven siblings, were you in the oldest, or I was like the third eldest, and I do have siblings that either became police officers or they're in the medical field.
Speaker 1Okay, so we're pretty good. So you were watching the TV. How old were you when you applied, and was Fresno PD your first agency that you applied to?
Speaker 2No, so what I did is, like I told you, playing golf. I met a lot of people playing and I met a couple of highway patrol officers and they would always tell me what the highway patrol did and their career. So I kind of got interested yeah so what I did is I applied to the california highway patrol. I went through their testing process. You know the written, the interviews. I was, you know, 20, I was like 20 and a half okay when I went through the process.
Speaker 2Um, I made it all the way through, got selected, went to the final chief's interview, okay, and I was denied from moving on just because of my age. I remember the chief or the deputy chief that I went to see in San Luis Obispo told me that I was too young. He told me to go out and get a few years of life experience and then to reapply. It bummed me out. I was kind of pretty disappointed just because I was able to make it that far and to be denied. I felt a little bit more like a failure.
Speaker 2So I ended up going home and my dad asked me what happened. I told him hey, this is what happened. So he says okay. So what are you going to do? He says are you going to stop trying or are you going to do something else? And I told him no, I want to keep trying. So he says okay, then what are you going to do? Are you going to wait the two years or is there something else you could do? And I says, no, there's something else you could do. So he says, okay, then If that's what you want to do, then pursue it. So what I ended up doing is I enrolled back into City College in Salinas. At Harnell I took reserve classes to become a reserve police officer, went through the classes, got it and then I applied at Gonzales Police Department.
Speaker 1Small agency Gonzales Gonzales by.
Speaker 2Soledad by Soledad. Yes, I ended up becoming a reserve there.
Speaker 1I was like 21 years old. Reserve is actually. You're sworn in as well, right Peace officer.
Speaker 2Yes, so you get sworn in as a peace officer, but you can't obviously be by yourself. You have to be with a full-time officer.
Speaker 1Dude, they have reserve PD in Gonzales. Yes, isn't it?
Speaker 2a small town. It is a small town and, like I said, they had several, so I ended up getting hired there and then I ended up enrolling into the police academy, so I was going to end up paying for it Right. During that time, obviously, I was working as a reserve in Gonzalez. Okay, the chief at that time basically told me that they would supply me with anything I needed. The only thing that they couldn't do was give me a salary, but he told me that once I graduated, that they would be willing to hire me as a full-time officer in Gonzalez. Okay, so I ended up going through the academy.
Speaker 1Where was the academy?
Speaker 2at In Gilroy. Gilroy, which is just north north, obviously, of Salinas, right, it's off 101, just south of Morgan Hill. Was that at a?
Speaker 1college?
Speaker 2Yes, it's called the Gallivan Community College. That's where the police academy was at?
Speaker 1What year was this man that you went to the academy?
Speaker 2Like 89. No way, dude, yeah, 89.
Speaker 1What was it like?
Speaker 2Were the sergeants yelling at you, the instructors, you know over the years the academy has changed a lot, but during that time it was run, not so much military, but it was a lot of discipline. Obviously you have to be well-dressed, well-groomed. You couldn't complain. If it was hot, you would go out and run. You couldn't complain. If it was hot, you would go out and run. You couldn't complain. We did all our PT, which is the exercise in asphalt.
Speaker 1For our younger viewers out there that may not understand this, when you say you couldn't complain, like what would happen if you did complain during that time.
Speaker 2You would have to write memos of why you're complaining. The way the old school was back then was um, why are you complaining? Because it's hot is. Do you think that when you get hired as a police officer and you're out in the street that you know it's not going to be hot, it's going to be worse?
Speaker 1yeah, with your gear and everything else right. So car right, so that's people right.
Speaker 2So that was one of the things. There's like what are you complaining about? Uh, we would do, uh, push-ups in asphalt asphalt gets hot during the summer, absolutely. Um, and we would do it in that, in the hot asphalt, and you couldn't complain oh, my hands are too hot or the asphalt's too hot what was going through your mind as you are enduring this.
Speaker 1Are you feeling motivated? Are you feeling accomplished? Both Purpose driven.
Speaker 2Motivated, accomplished and driven to get where you want to go. Perfect Because, the way you look at it, just because you're going to the police academy, it's not over yet. You still got to get hired and you still got to go through the training program.
Speaker 1And maintain your employment.
Speaker 2And maintain your employment, which is the most important. Going through all that, all you're doing is the academy is to see how far they could push you before you break the stress level, Because they don't want someone on the street that's going to break when they get stressed.
Speaker 1They're not going to be able to think In 1989, did the academy do a good job of inducing stress in its candidates? Absolutely.
Speaker 2Absolutely so when you would hit, you know when you get hired, it was like okay, I already felt the stress, the only stress that's different. Now you are actually going out for calls for service, real calls for service, where you're going to either go help or take any legal action, which is a little bit different than the scenarios you have in the academy.
Speaker 1Right, it's real.
Speaker 2It's real.
Speaker 1So did you end up getting hired full time at Gonzalez? No, so what?
Speaker 2happened was I graduated. I went back. Obviously, small agencies don't have the budget, so they didn't have it it. So what I did is I applied to the King City Police Department. It's where you know, obviously I was. You know I grew up at yeah and I got hired there. King City yeah, king City, that's where I did my. My first job as a police officer was King City, full-time. How many years did you do there?
Speaker 1about five years. Five years, yes. And then, after King City, did you go to Fresno?
Speaker 2And then, after King City, I went to Fresno.
Path to Law Enforcement
Speaker 1yes, Okay, so let's talk about King City PD. Man, you're a cop now. What year is this in?
Speaker 2King.
Speaker 1City 91. 1991. There's no cell phones. Did people have pagers or no Pagers? Yes, Okay did people have pagers or no?
Speaker 2uh pagers, yes, okay, uh did you guys have a computer monitor in your car. No, it's all uh radio, all radio, radio, radio traffic, which means you have a radio in the patrol car. You carry a portable radio. There were no computers at all.
Speaker 1Was uh quality of the radio not good or good. It was good, it was good quality radio, good quality no issues with communicating.
Speaker 2No issues with communications, though, perfect, but you learn how to use a radio property. And no mapping systems like nowadays there's mapping systems. Everything was you learn the streets, memorize them, and if you had to go to the county, you had to memorize the roads, or you would carry, uh, the thomas guide map books to know where you're going. Where did you?
Speaker 1acquire those thomas guides map books? Did you where you're going? Where did you acquire those Thomas Guide map books? Did you have to pay out?
Speaker 2of pocket, or were they supplied, I would buy them. No, I bought them, I buy my own.
Speaker 1Was that something that the majority of police officers were doing?
Speaker 2Yes, the majority. Some didn't. You know, some of them knew the area real well, so they didn't need it.
Speaker 1So they didn't, they didn't need it. What are some?
Speaker 2techniques or lessons or applications that maybe the newer police officers are not utilizing today, that you guys were using back then, that your lives depended on it. I think a lot of it has to do with the computer, the geography, so a lot of like the new tech that's. You know, nowadays it's all technology. So when they get dispatched to a call, the computer obviously gives it to you and it gives you the route. Uh, mapping system in the computers, um, they're great. But, uh, what happens if that's all you learn? Right? So what happens when the computer goes down?
Speaker 2If you don't know this, if you don't know your streets or you don't have a street guide, where are you going to go? Or you don't know this. If you don't know your streets or you don't have a street guide, where are you going to go? Or you don't know your? You know your block numbers, that 100 is a 200 blocks. That's that's the most important thing, I think. Um, I don't know if that's what they're teaching. Uh, without the computer. Still, some of them I know I have friends that are still like trainers, old school trainers that they won't allow. Obviously the recruits use the mapping system. They have to memorize Well, that's good Either by map or use a guide. We used to get a street guide. So, basically, if you learned the major streets, then the smaller streets. With the street guide you would know where they're at. Okay, based on the major streets.
Speaker 1To me it kind of reminds me of like in in the past we had to remember telephone numbers by memory, right, and then now that we got cell phones, I couldn't tell you anybody's number because it's all in the cell phone, right, yeah, and it's true, that's you.
Speaker 2You lose that, you lose the, the memory, because you're now you're dealing with technology what about policing 101?
Speaker 1getting out into the community and using your communication skills.
Speaker 2Obviously, that's huge. When I started, if you had no communication skills, you were going to have major problems, because then you don't know how to speak to obviously not only the citizens, but also people that aren't distraught, Whatever it might be. They're suspects, victims or whatever they might be. If you're unable to communicate with them, you have major problems. That was one of the things that we learned a lot you have to be a good communicator in order to be able to deescalate. You know heated situations.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Because you know you're going to cause where obviously some of the people were like way older than you were and you have had command presence Dude that you're in charge and you had to be able to show that by being able to communicate I like that.
Speaker 1you said that, bro, because you're that. A lot of law enforcement officers start at the age of 21 and even for myself, at the age of 22. It was a weird feeling. I have to tell-year-old hardened convict what to do, right, or it's not a good freaking feeling, right?
Speaker 2And obviously, some of the lessons that I learned right off the get-go from not only from my parents, but also from you know, like veteran officers one you treat everybody with respect, regardless. You treat them like human beings and remember nothing is personal in this business. It's your job and you're doing your job, that's it.
Speaker 1Earlier you mentioned the term command presence. Explain to the crowd what is command presence.
Speaker 2Command presence is when you actually show up to a call, whether it's a heated call, a call that you need to be there, just by being there uniform, and the way you communicate with the crowd or the individuals, they stop what they're doing and they listen and they pay attention of what you're going to tell them and they listen to your orders. That's the most important thing. That's command presence there and it lacks nowadays it does.
Speaker 1It does lack nowadays, and some of the things we see are timidness, unsureness. What do you think that stems from? Do you think that stems from a generational thing? Maybe not knowing the policy or the law where they're conflicted?
Speaker 2No, I think it's all technology nowadays. True, you have a lot of, obviously, you have a lot of cell phones texting. You have all these apps. Everybody communicates that way. Instead of actually calling someone or talking to someone in person, they send you a text message, which is easier. Yeah, but it's that takes a valuable uh skill, people skills it is not applicable in real life right scenarios that's and that's.
Speaker 2I think that's the biggest thing. Um, a lot of them, uh, do their. Obviously, one of the biggest things is that, the communication skills. The other one is writing skills. Writing skills are lacking and it's because we use computers to type or write and the computer corrects your misspells or your misspellings. It gives you options on how to write or your misspellings. It gives you options on how to write. I know there's programs out there nowadays that they're using where they want to write a paper and they give it the parameters and they hit a button and it writes the paper for you.
Speaker 1I use that all the time in what I do now Chat GPT. It works like a charm, but I probably wouldn't use that in law enforcement.
Speaker 2So what happens is they use that a lot and then when they come out and obviously they go through the process of being hired, their writing skills and communication skills are poor and I see that as a background investigator, I'll see that those two skills are lacking.
Speaker 1Oh, because you do do background investigator now stuff. So we'll get to that, bro. So you definitely know what you're talking about For sure. 100% Command presence. Yeah, did you encounter any situations in the beginning that kind of like shocked you or eye-opener?
Speaker 2Yeah, it's you always. I think the biggest things are when you have to deal with kids. Ooh, golly.
Speaker 1That's the hard part.
Speaker 2You know, dealing with kids, either you know being abused or neglected. That was always hard. It's like man it's, but that's the job. You have to, and and it's you always have to say OK, it's not a personal thing, it's just my job, this is a call. I have to handle this, but that was the toughest I think dealing with, obviously with children, that was that was the hardest.
Speaker 1Let me go back to the original question. Would you agree in this statement that, even though the generation of police officers have changed, and with their youth, what about the gang members and the gangsters? Are they just as dangerous and deadly as they were in the past?
Speaker 2Oh, absolutely 100% yes, and I think they're more armed nowadays than back then.
Speaker 1Yeah, they are, bro, Absolutely With the equipment that you guys had back then. Did you feel that it was enough to perform your duties?
Speaker 2Yes, back then, yes, back then. Did you feel that it was enough to perform your duties? Yes, back then, yes. And then we went through a transition where that equipment was not no longer working, which meant that we needed to get obviously, everybody you know in in the criminal world. They, they're better armed, so you had to be, you know. Obviously you had to get your patrol rifles, the assault rifles, so that's something that we never carried. The North Hollywood shooting yeah, I think that did it. And also the Columbine with the school.
Speaker 2I think that did it where it's like we need more than just a regular shotgun and obviously, a handgun.
Speaker 1During that time frame, did you enjoy what you were doing?
Speaker 2Absolutely. I enjoyed it 100%, always, because that's what I've always wanted to do, so I enjoyed going to work.
Speaker 1What did you get the most satisfaction out of? Catching bad people or helping good people Helping, helping.
Speaker 2Helping, helping people. I think that's the most satisfaction you get. You're able to help someone. Obviously, yeah, you arrest certain people, but I think the best satisfaction you ever have is you help someone, especially medical calls, because as a police officer working in King City, we had to go to medical calls, you know, just like the fire department.
Speaker 2And I could tell you. I went to several where you know, obviously you had people having heart attacks or life-threatening, and you're the first one there, so you have to be able to perform CPR. That's what you need to do to try to help this person survive. Wow. So to me, helping people was the best satisfaction I could get.
Speaker 1After your five years you go over to Fresno did you want to do that, or yes, uh.
Speaker 2So basically, um, you know, obviously I wanted to just get out of the area. I mean, I grew up in king city, I had been there, uh, almost all my life and I was looking to move on from a small agency to a bigger agency. You know, you put out applications, uh, different areas, and, um, I put in one for Fresno and Clovis, I put in one for Phoenix, phoenix, arizona. Yeah, I put in for Phoenix. I got a job offer in Phoenix but I didn't take it because obviously my wife at that time didn't want to move. So I kind of told them that I recanted, waived, and then I got hired with fresno, nice, and that's then we ended up moving to fresno what was the difference between king's police department and fresno like?
Speaker 1did the building look different on the inside? Was it more modern?
Speaker 2no, I mean, uh, obviously king city had a small agency, uh, small department, uh, and when I went to fresno, it's obviously a bigger building, it's an older building but it's obviously a lot more bigger. Fresno was, I could tell you, is like 100 times bigger than King City 100 times bigger. So I went from a population of like 10,000 to 15,000 to a population of 400,000.
Speaker 1How many sworn officers would you say were in King City? We had 16.
Speaker 2Okay, it kind of reminds me I'm from Brawley, California, which is a very small place, small agency, I mean that's all you have, that's all you have, and now you're going.
Speaker 1how many sworn officers would you say that Fresno PD had?
Speaker 2At the time when I went there, they had I think it was like 800 at that time.
Speaker 1So from 16 to 800, was that a culture shock to?
Speaker 2you? Not really. I knew it was a bigger department, but I look at it as okay. It's a bigger department. Yeah, more calls for service, but the calls are the same oh wow, the calls are the same. Yeah, they're going to be the same. You know it's just going to be in a more massive calls. You're going to have a lot more calls for service. What?
Speaker 1are some calls for service, bro, that a police officer will get throughout a career?
Speaker 2So you go to, like, domestic violence, child abuse cases. You'll go to rape cases, sexual assault, or you go to homicides where you know obviously somebody's been shot. You just have to, you know obviously secure the scene. It's a little bit different. You come from a small agency to the bigger agency and then you have all the gang stuff the same thing just at a bigger scale, but the cult yeah.
Speaker 1Suicides.
Speaker 2Suicides.
Speaker 1Shots fired, drive-by shootings yeah.
Speaker 2The same thing, but just at a bigger scale.
Speaker 1Bigger scale. But does it get turned up? Does it get more violent? Or it's just the same exact, or it can all vary.
Speaker 2It varies. Just the same exact or it can all vary, it varies. So when I worked king city, I worked, you know, gangs, I worked narcotics there. Uh, the gangs, you know, they shot at each other, they did drive-bys yeah you know I worked a few homicides when I was there.
Early Police Career in King City
Speaker 2Um, now you transfer to fresno. Obviously it's a little bit different, the politics are different. So as a patrol officer, you go for calls for service and if it's like a shooting or assault with a deadly weapon or even, you know, obviously, a homicide, we just secure the scene and you're calling the detective. So the detectives take that portion of it.
Speaker 1I can only assume that you are not witnessing violence prior to becoming a police officer. I can only assume right, but did you start to see violence more and more as you continued your employment?
Speaker 2Oh, absolutely. It just got a little bit more violent and more violent. Yes, obviously you get tried to be assaulted. More People would not obey orders, so they would want to fight you a lot more. So I saw that a little bit more when I went to Fresno than I did in King City.
Speaker 1Looking back in hindsight, with everything you know now and all your experiences, do you believe that you changed as a person as a result of being introduced to violence?
Speaker 2A little bit, yes, you become desensitized to it, so it's like, okay, it's just another call, and that's bad, because sometimes, when that happens, you gotta understand, you gotta leave your work problems at work, you can't take them home. You take them home, then you're gonna have major problems do?
Speaker 1cops have major problems absolutely yes, I mean.
Speaker 2That's why cops get divorced a lot, because they take their problems from work home and then your home problems to work. You can't do that. You have to be able to separate them. Is it impossible to separate them? It's not impossible, but it's it's possible it's possible, is it?
Speaker 2hard to separate them sometimes, but you gotta, you gotta. You just have to instill in yourself that why am I going to take my problems from home to work? It's just going to affect me at work, right where you may not be thinking and you could easily get hurt. And then you take your your problems from home, which have nothing to do with your home life. So I had to learn very quickly to separate them and I was fortunate enough to be able to do it?
Speaker 1Were you using any techniques? Were you exercising? Were you reading? Were you just muscling through separation?
Speaker 2No, it's everything. You have to exercise. You have to obviously take a little bit of time to kind of de-escalate yourself when you're home. I like that Kind of separate.
Speaker 1A decompression period.
Speaker 2Yes, you have to do it. Obviously, my wife knew what I was, you know, she always knew that I want to be a police officer. There were things that when I came, you know, know as a street cop, you do talk to them about when you're, you know, basic uniform service yeah, but I went to narcotics and fresno I, I wouldn't tell her anything I cut tight lip.
Speaker 2I wouldn't because I didn't want her, like you know obviously to you know, to get worried and not stressing out when I'm going to work. So there was a lot of things I never shared with her until after I retired, and then I shared a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1How long did you work in Fresno before you got introduced to the narcotic?
Speaker 2Okay. So what happened was when I came to Fresno I must have had like maybe four months Okay, four months on I was still on probation period and then what happened was they were creating a gang unit. So where they were going to put in, you know, put in the sheriff's office, the Fresno PD and all allied agencies in Fresno County with obviously the federal government, dea, the FBI, atf they were creating a gang unit called MAGIC, which is a multi-agency consortium, agency consortium, and they were requesting officers with experience to submit a memo interview for the positions. And obviously I had prior law enforcement experience and I had experience in, you know, obviously, gangs writing search warrants, doing undercover operations from King City when I was doing it. So I ended up submitting a memo even though I was on probation.
Speaker 2I got selected Awesome. So I'm brand new at Fresno. And then I get obviously assigned to the gang unit. But now there's two parts to it. So you have what they call the metro unit, which is the city, and then you have a county which is all county allied. I'm a brand new police officer, get assigned to the sheriff's office, to the county team.
Speaker 2And then I get assigned to the plainclothes team just because of my experience. So now I'm brand new Fresno. Now I go to the sheriff's office and I stay at the sheriff's office for about six and a half years. So everything that I'm doing, I'm doing with the sheriff's office for about six and a half years. So everything that I'm doing, I'm doing, uh, with the sheriff's office do you even bother to go back to the fresno police station?
Speaker 2no, because our office is away from the, you know, the sheriff's headquarters and the police headquarters. We have our own office. You guys had your own office. Yes, we had our own office. So that's what we were like secret? No, it wasn't secret, it was. It was. Uh, we started off downtown Fresno in a building and then eventually got moved after I left.
Speaker 1Did it look any different in there versus the regular police station? Like I would imagine, like a hideout, like a goon hideout, like punching bag weight bench.
Speaker 2So our unit where we were at at Magic, you know where we were at the gang unit, it was just like offices just like this.
Speaker 1Oh, just offices. Yeah, that was it Desk okay.
Speaker 2It had nothing to do with you know. They didn't say, you know, police or anything like that. It was just the building, empty building, you know, with nothing on it. Cubicles we had cubicles in there. Computers, computers, landline phones machines. Yes, dang man. Um, wow, a parking garage. A parking? No, we parked in the back we had a back parking lot.
Speaker 1It wasn't even gated. So one of the questions that just I just dawned on me when you were talking about, uh, report writing, I was going to ask you at that point in time did you have to appear in court a lot of times? Yes, so how important is report writing in law enforcement? The key. The better you write reports, the least amount of time you spend on the standing court. I like that man.
Speaker 2So if you write good, detailed reports, your job is not to go to court. It's so it could get. Obviously, the court system takes care of itself, nice, and people plea out, and that's what you want. You don't want to go up in the stand, and you know. Obviously, go up and testify. The least you do it, the better. Nice, and it's based on your writing.
Speaker 1I like that dude. So here you have all this experience, bro, writing search warrants. You're on probation.
Speaker 2You're on insurance, you're on probation, you're working. Is it a sheriff? Is the sheriff like the headquarter? Is the police department? So the lieutenant from the police department was in charge of the metro units, the metro part of Magic, which was within the city limits, and then you had a SO lieutenant was in charge of all the county and that's the way it was. And then it started off with the district attorney being obviously head of Magic. They were in charge. It changed after the first year and instead of being the DA's office, they put a highway patrol captain in there.
Speaker 1Wow, dude, so crazy.
Speaker 2And so there was no. You know, obviously politics, big politics, conflict of interest, conflict. So they put the highway patrol and the captain did an excellent job.
Speaker 1He ran that unit smooth was magic, something that was used in other major cities as well, because I've heard of magic teams before yeah, it's, it's all fresno county based.
Speaker 2It's all, it's just fresno county.
Speaker 1The magic units fresno county but I think I've heard of like maybe la had a magic team. Uh, no la, I think had crash crash. Yeah, they had, yeah, they they had other units over there. Okay, so Magic was Fresno.
Speaker 2Yeah, it was just all Fresno.
Speaker 1Earlier, when we first started, you said you regretted not promoting During this period in time. You said you had lieutenants. Did it ever cross your mind like, oh, I want to be one of those lieutenants of this team.
Speaker 2It did cross my mind, but I enjoyed what I was doing. So it kind of it just kind of would go away.
Speaker 1But I do regret that not being able to promote I think that's what why some people don't promote and why I didn't promote for a long time is because you're actually enjoying what you're doing at that level. Yes, and you want to learn that level, you want to master that level.
Speaker 2Right, yeah, that's true and that's probably what happened to me. And then, obviously, you know you go through your career and you're like, oh man, I need to it went by fast. Yeah, you want to. You know, obviously, you want to. You should have. You know, we're like regrets, Like that's the only thing I regret is not promoting.
Speaker 1So are you meeting new people for your first time, like these sheriff deputies?
Speaker 2A lot of them. Yes, Like the younger ones, yes.
Speaker 1Okay, do you guys have to start from ground zero, from scratch? Like, hey, let's pick a target and let's start working a case around it.
Speaker 2You know that portion. I'm not involved anymore just because I retired, but when we were obviously when I was working and assigned to Magic, that's the way we would do. We would pick targets and then we would start working that target. Like for us, in the unit I was in, it was all plain clothes. So we would target gang members that were selling drugs, firearms, and that's what we would do. We would go in there and buy firearms or drugs from them.
Speaker 1Were these well-known gang members? Yes, well-known to who? To everybody.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean they were part of the Fresno Bulldogs. We dealt with the black gangs, we dealt with the Mexican gangs in, you know, the North Angles, surangos.
Speaker 1What were some of the black gangs Crips?
Speaker 2No, they were like just the Strother Boys and some of those guys from you know, from the west side of Fresno, okay, the Posse, but we kind of more dealt like we were specifically just targeted, like the Bulldogs, those were the ones that we really targeted. Were some bulldog suspects more dangerous than others, I would say some, but they were all the same. I mean they're all dangerous.
Speaker 1You guys treated them all the same, absolutely.
Speaker 2Just because they were from a different set or they were from somewhere else, it didn't mean that they weren't violent. They could be just as violent as anybody.
Speaker 1Now, what year is this happening? You're in the Magic team.
Speaker 2I was in Magic from 1997 to 2003.
Speaker 11997, man Probably still no cell phones either.
Speaker 2Were they coming on board? They were coming on board, but it was more pagers, so that was it. And then go to the payphone or go to one of the call boxes that you know throughout the city to make calls, and that's it.
Speaker 1Would you utilize payphones back then?
Speaker 2Yeah, if we couldn't get to a phone then, yeah, we'd go to payphone and call. We had to, but we did have pagers.
Speaker 1We go to pay for it and call. We had to, but we did have pagers. How big was your team? How big would a team a surveillance team or a by team be? Of how many people?
Speaker 2The team I was in, we had 10 people and that was our team. So we did we would do the undercover by, we would do the surveillance. It was 10 people Did everybody have the roles.
Speaker 1Yes, everybody has roles. What are some of the roles, If you can talk about it?
Speaker 2Does somebody sit in the lookout van or something. So we had, you know, obviously, someone that monitors whatever you have the recording device. Then you have people that are surveillance. They're watching to make sure everything's, and then somebody's watching whoever the undercover is making sure that they're monitoring to make sure that he's okay, that there's no stress, there's no help needed and everybody has their assignments. And before we leave, or after the briefings, before we left, we made sure everybody understood what the rule was.
Speaker 1It seems to me like a lot of things can go bad in an operation, absolutely.
Speaker 2The worst thing is no communication. They go down and it happens.
Speaker 1What would that scenario look like, when your freaking communications go down? You're in the middle of something.
Speaker 2You can't hear. Something went dead or the radios are just not working for some reason. So back then obviously we don't have cell phones we had a pager, so somebody would have to page him with a code. We would always have different codes and if he got that specific code, that meant that he had to get out. No matter what he was doing, he had to leave. Did that ever happen? A couple of times, and they would do exactly what we told them they would just get up and leave. Oh, so you guys had contingency plans?
Speaker 1yes, absolutely hey, if, if uh comms goes down this is what we're gonna do. Right, this is what you're gonna do. Yes, how important is contingency plans.
Speaker 2You have to have one and you have to have multiple. You just can't go with one. We always did it. Um, obviously imagine it was harder just because we had no cell phones. But later, when cell phones were in play and obviously we had the operations when I was working narcotics, it was a lot easier. So, but yes, we had you have to have contingency plans. Contingency plans from the minute you start the operation. If something happened, right off the get-go shots fired. We all had a plan of where we needed to do, where we would have to do, and then we would start calling everybody, make sure everybody was okay. But yes, you would have to do that. Locations if for some reason you picked a location and operation, they didn't like it. You have to have at least two other locations that you controlled Nice. So they didn't like that when you would move them to another location where you wanted them to go. So you had to have all that.
Speaker 1So, while it is dangerous and there's a lot of room for error, there's also room for mitigating those, those, those errors.
Speaker 2Right, but if you don't talk about it or you or you don't train for it, yes, then you are going to have major problems.
Speaker 1No, bro, I can tell you definitely have a lot of experience. Dude, it's awesome. It's almost like a blast from the past, because I was telling you earlier that I feel that law enforcement as a whole has gotten away from this basic one-on-one survival. Yeah, what would be supplied to you for an operation? Would a gun be supplied to you by the law enforcement agency?
Speaker 2Oh, absolutely. When you get hired as a police officer, obviously the police department issues you a duty weapon.
Speaker 1But I'm talking about for a fake buy. Would they give you like a fake ar-15 or a replica no fake dope or real dope so okay.
Speaker 2So you're asking like say uh, a prop, like a prop, no, so let's so. Operations like say like let's just say, in narcotics we were posing as buyers of drugs. So we met someone, or we got introduced to someone that was a supplier, say, of meth or cocaine. So then we would meet with them, have a conversation, tell them that I was looking for his product. Then obviously we would engage in telling them that we had obviously the money, that you know that we had the money to purchase the drugs. So we would actually show them that money. But in a tactical way we weren't just going to tell them, hey, we're going to show you the money right now. No, we would, you know, obviously do the conversation. Then we would pull him and then we would show it to him in a tactical way. Show him actual money. We never used fake money, it's always real money.
Speaker 1Did these guys, the suspects, did they fit the profile, Meaning like bald head tattoos, gangster looking? Oh yeah, or were you surprised ever?
Speaker 2Well, when you deal with gangs, then you know you're dealing with gang members. When you're dealing with, obviously in the dope world, everybody's involved. It could be a gang member, it could be a businessman. So we had everybody. We had gang members that were dealing what we wanted or they were in the mix, they were involved. And then we had people that had businesses, that actually had businesses, but they were involved as a side business. They were, you know, obviously trafficking, dope, what did that look like?
Speaker 1Because I always hear about what do they call those? Oh, that restaurant's a front, that laundromat's a front. What did that look like?
Speaker 2So basically they actually have businesses that they run, but on the side they have obviously they're involved in drug trafficking or laundering money.
Speaker 1What do they? Did they look like in the movies? Like they got a back room where they call you in the back no, no, they don't have that.
Speaker 2A lot of the times when you met, like someone that had a business or involved in that, you would be with them, away from even their businesses, okay. So you would have to be able to track idm of who this person is, and obviously there's a lot of different techniques you could do that, you know, from surveillance to tracking people. So that's that's how we id people. Did you enjoy the surveillance part of the job? Yes, why is that? Because it's um one um, obviously it's. It's difficult, uh, to follow people, but it's a skill you could develop and the better you are at it, the better, uh, your surveillances go. So it's like a cat and mouse. That's that's the way we looked at it. So it's like a. We want to make sure that we're able to obviously follow the person without them knowing that we're following them. And the better you get at it, the more you train, you develop that skill where they could take you anywhere and still you'll be fine, you'll get what you want.
Speaker 1But I feel like there had to have been times where they spotted that they had a tail on them.
Speaker 2Oh, obviously. So I mean there's times that we obviously we got burned. There were times that you guys got burned yes, there were times, yeah, but there's, it's just it happens but was it like an explosive situation or?
Speaker 1was it like everybody backs up, yeah no, usually what?
Speaker 2what happens is when we know that we're, uh, that you, obviously they know that you're following them we would see like little things that they would do. A lot of the times what they would do is they were doing circles, or if you see a phone flying out of the window, you knew that it's like okay, that's it, we're done. So they knew.
Speaker 1Yeah, I always heard that you got to make four left turns to see if somebody's following you.
Speaker 2No, that's not true.
Speaker 1Well, I mean, why else would somebody make four left turns? You know yeah.
Speaker 2No, I understand what that is. There's a lot of people say that they do like oh, I do counter stuff. But no, Is there counter stuff? Yes, I mean, there's people that drive like that. They think in their mind it's like, hey, if I drive like, do four or five, whatever turns, I'm going to know whether people are following. But you just never know.
Speaker 1So during this time frame, man, did the gang members ever have any of their counter-surveillance or anything that they were doing to watch you guys? No, you know what Track you guys.
Speaker 2No, I remember. I mean, there was no like when we were working gangs and obviously buying firearms or drugs from them. There was no counter stuff that they would do.
Speaker 1That's so weird I think there was more.
Speaker 2They were comfortable with who you are. So, by me saying that is, when you get introduced to someone, whoever it might be, and they're involved in obviously illegal activity say, you want to buy firearms or drugs from them if you meet with them as someone that you want, as a person that's buying the stuff from them, you have to know what you're talking about. So you have to make them at ease a lot of the times. So it all depends on how you communicate with that person, how your relationship with them, whether you build rapport with them. And that's one of the keys you have to be able to build rapport with that person as a business partner that, hey, you have something I want and you have something that you want for me. You have product and I have money, so how are we going to get together as a business transaction? Were you ever in that role?
Speaker 1yes, you were in the role of being face to face with a bad guy, a gang member, a drug dealer, undercover. Yes, hey, man, I have money, you have dope you were in that role. Yes, bro, that's freaking sketchy, that's crazy it is, but it's it's.
Speaker 2It's dangerous, but, at the same time, if you know what you're talking about and you're confident, of what you're doing.
Speaker 1That leads me to my next question, bro, because not everybody has that. Not everybody has the gift of gab the, the ability to move, flow, talk, understand your environment, understand the language. How did you adopt that?
Moving to Fresno and Joining MAGIC Unit
Speaker 2Naturally, by watching others. Training, that's it. You learn from veteran detectives that have been doing it for a long time and you watch what they're doing, how they do things, and then, obviously, your personal experience, your interactions with people, if you're able to have good communication skills and the biggest thing is, if you know what you're talking about you're in, and a lot of the times it has to do who introduced you to?
Speaker 1them. Okay, how does that process work?
Speaker 2So a lot of the times it could be informants, or it could be a person that doesn't even know that you're a police officer, or they're informants. It's someone that you just naturally meet and you start talking and they're like, hey, I know someone that could get you what you want, and that's how the operations start.
Speaker 1What about raids on homes? Yeah, search warrants, you did them. Yes, do they activate the SWAT team for that or they send you guys?
Speaker 2no. So obviously, through most of my career, we did our own search warrants, uh, but we did our own tactical planning, uh. We did our plans, our entries, assignments, who's going to cover the back, who's's going to be? So it's like a big operation, it's like a SWAT operation, but it's a little bit different. But do you have a helmet and a vest? We have helmets, vests.
Speaker 1We have everything, yes everything.
Speaker 2SWAT is just completely different. So we had what we called a matrix where we gave it numbers. If you reached a certain level where it was required to use SWAT or call them, we would have to call them?
Speaker 1Who made this matrix? Was it standard operating procedure from the law enforcement agency or did you guys make your own matrix?
Speaker 2No, the departments that make it.
Speaker 1Bro, what would be something that would hey call the freaking SWAT now?
Speaker 2Well, it would have to be people with firearms. Obviously they're armed. Those are the violence, so we would use them, because that's what they train for Right? Even though we were skilled enough to do search warrants, we had to use SWAT.
Speaker 1When you would enter these homes on search warrants. What were some of the things you've seen in there? Was it filthy? Was there dope everywhere? Were there guns under the couch, like in the movies?
Speaker 2No, I mean, it's just like a normal house. Some houses were dirty, clean firearms. We found them, you know, in the bedroom or in the closet. It was rare when you saw someone actually be armed on them in the house.
Speaker 1Did you ever find drugs in the toilet where they attempted to flush and they didn't get to it?
Speaker 2um no, we never. We found, uh, drugs inside the tank in a bag, okay, you know that kind of stuff, but flush no in the attic.
Speaker 1So would you guys ever find? Did you ever come across large bus like like bundles?
Speaker 2oh, absolutely. That's what we did in major narcotics at fresno. We were dealing with pound dealers or kilo dealers no way, dude.
Speaker 1Yes, so you weren't dealing with the nickel and dime at the park.
Speaker 2Hey, homie, let me get a, that's what we did at magic, you know, with the gang stuff okay, oh wow.
Speaker 1So so that magic is different than the narcotics? Yes, absolutely so. In major.
Speaker 2When I went to majors uh, the narcotics unit we dealt with pounds and kilos did you go to majors after magic? Yes, straight straight.
Speaker 1Yes, I put in for it and got moved over I'm sure you got recommended by your supervisors, your peers, uh little story.
Speaker 2Uh. So, um, when I was putting in for my major narcotics, I put in three different times. The first two times I would always be number one in the interviews but I would never get selected. And it was because they're like oh, we thought you were a deputy Because I was at the sheriff's side, and it's like no, I'm a PDO. And then it says we don't have any reports that you've ever written, so we don't know how you write. And I tell them, tell them, well, that's because I'm assigned to the sheriff's office. Everything's at the sheriff's office, right? So the last time I put in for it, um, I pretty much says, if I don't get selected, this will be the last time I put in for it. And obviously they at least they got to see me go through a few times so they knew who I was. So when I got selected, it was, you know, I got, got moved over so this?
Speaker 1it sounds like a competitive process. How many people are putting in for it, and is it only one slot?
Speaker 2So when I went it was one slot and if I recall, there was, I think, like 10 different people that put in for it.
Speaker 1Dude, and you got picked both for Magic and for the other one.
Speaker 2No, the Magic one. There was a lot of officers that put in for that. I just don't know how many?
Speaker 1It was just everybody put in for that. Okay, bro. So now this what is it called majors? Yeah, they're called majors. Yeah, is this a different building than your magic building? Yes, and does this building look any different? It's all the same no, it's different.
Speaker 2It's just like a just a business park with the building.
Speaker 1That's it now are you? Is this when you got sworn in as a federal agent?
Speaker 2No, when we would do federal cases with the federal government, like say with DEA, then if it was going to be like a long-term thing, then yeah, they would deputize us Just because they had avenues from out of state. We had several cases that went from California to other states.
Speaker 1When you went from a regular police officer in Fresno to MAGIC, did you see people that you recognized, like your partners, as your friends or anybody? Yes, you did yes. When you went from MAGIC to majors, did you see people that you recognized?
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1Where were they from? From the sheriff's or from the PD?
Speaker 2Just PD and from the sheriff's, or from the pd, just pd and and from the sheriff's office people that I worked with over the years. So they obviously they knew that I was over at a narcotics.
Speaker 1So now at any time. Did magic and majors ever work together when you were in magic? No, it's two separate things.
Speaker 2Two separate things? Yeah, they, we would. The only time we would ever help uh, majors, or or even the sheriff's side, is if they needed bodies for search warrants and their operations. I recall we helped them a couple of times, but that was it. Justice of warrants, that's it.
Speaker 1Bro, there's so many moving parts. It's like an octopus. You would think call cops are the same, but it's not.
Speaker 2There's so many different task forces. It's completely different, yeah.
Speaker 1Who are your target suspects in majors?
Speaker 2Anybody that's dealing narcotics or trafficking narcotics in pounds or kilo quantities.
Speaker 1So I would imagine you're going one step up from your local gangbanger at the park. I'm imagining you're going up the chain. Yeah, we're going up, we're going up to like the suppliers, that's what we're going one step up from your local gangbanger at the park. I imagine you're going up the chain.
Speaker 2Yeah, we're going up to like the suppliers. That's what we're going for. We're going for people that are actually the bigger fish, what they call.
Speaker 1And now, right off the top of your head with all your experience how many levels are there to that drug ladder?
Speaker 2It depends. I mean, sometimes we would meet, obviously we would meet people at the lower end. But Sometimes we would meet, obviously we would meet people at the lower end but they were trusted enough to where they would be able to get, you know, two, three, four pounds, sometimes five or two or three kilos. For somebody to be trusted to that point they would have to be connected to someone.
Speaker 1And you're talking about the lower level.
Speaker 2Yeah, the lower level. And then you know, there was times where we would get someone in the mid-level where they would have a lot more.
Speaker 1You know you're talking about 20 30 pounds, 20, 10, 20, 30 kilos that's a little bit bigger. So everything I would say is based on trust based on trust. Yes in their world, in their world. Trust. Hey, I trust you. You're a good person, or a good person, you? You're trustworthy. You can here's more money here or here's more money or here's more dope. Yes, in the grand scheme of things, if I have a cartel member in Mexico, he's way up here. How many levels down is these guys?
Speaker 2he could have 10, 15, 20. It all depends in between, in between, yeah if you look at the heads, it's like they treat it almost like a business. It is a business, you know the CEO, and then you have all your workers, all your supervisors, and then you have all your low-level employees. That's the way it is. It's a business. It's hard to touch someone at that level unless you are, you know, obviously in the federal government and you know you really directed into that.
Speaker 1Yeah, there's levels to the game, but this is very interesting for me to hear, bro, Because we watch the movies. You know Sicario and we see the stuff. I mean, that's the only thing I can compare it to Right. Are these people that you're dealing with in majors? Are they more up kept? Are they wearing suits or they?
Speaker 2you know they're just. It could be someone as simple as you know dress the way you are, the way I am. To somebody showing up in a in a suit, which we dealt with, I could tell you I dealt with one person like that, where the person would always show up in a business suit, but that was his way of dressing, right, it had nothing to do with whether he was a business or anything like that, that's just the way he dressed, which was kind of odd. What was the majority of the race? A lot of Hispanics, mexican Nationals.
Speaker 1But there were other races.
Speaker 2There were times where you dealt with. We dealt with one white, individual white guy which was very surprising because he was able to get large quantities of dope and he was tied to our Mexican guys, which was kind of interesting.
Speaker 1What made?
Speaker 2it interesting the fact that he was white. The interesting thing is that he was white but he knew some of the higher ranked members of whatever organizations they were in that he knew who they were and he had the ability to call them in Mexico, which was kind of interesting El Magico Not to that point, but it was other people that were probably connected in that chain, but not that high.
Speaker 1So dope is coming from mexico, right? I doubt it's coming from canada, or was it coming from canada?
Speaker 2well, obviously the borders are huge, uh, obviously everything comes from, you know, through the, obviously through mexico, but there's a lot of stuff that comes through canada. There is, um, we had uh cases that we worked on, uh, that a lot of pills were coming from canada, uh, and they were working the pill cases that we worked on that a lot of pills were coming from Canada and they were working the pill cases that you know because they come that way. Obviously there's still drugs that come to Canada. They come one way or another. They're coming here, but the majority comes from Mexico. Yes, obviously.
Speaker 1As it gets trafficked from Mexico. Is it from your knowledge and experience? Is there a certain corridor that it hits all the way up north? I mean, is this dope going to hit LA before it hits Fresno?
Speaker 2Yes, a lot of the times, like it depends. Everybody has their own highways, what they call, so different organizations have different methods. So a lot of it comes through TJ Otay Mesa. Then you have the Texas corridor Okay, you know that. So it all depends where it comes through, tj or thai mesa. Then you have the, the texas core line okay, you know that that could. So it all depends where it goes through arizona, the different borders, so like, say, drugs that come through, say through san diego, you know tijuana, they. If it lands obviously here then it lands in la, uh, somewhere in la, then it lands, uh, it could land in fresno, and then from fresno it could be moved to other parts.
Speaker 1It's tentacles. Is that how the cartel works, though, logistically? Hey, we're going to send you three. I don't know how this works, bro. Three kilos in one shot?
Speaker 2One kilo lands in San Diego, one kilo lands in no, no, no, no. They don't send like that man. When people bring dope across, you know, like the main cartels you're talking. They could bring as many as 300, 400 pounds at a time.
Speaker 1Okay, I understand that, but they're bringing 400 pounds, but is it always designated to drop off on the way up north?
Speaker 2So they have the drop off points. So whatever cargoes they're bringing, they know where they're going. A cargo could be going to say, to San Diego, that cargo stays in San Diego. Another one could be going to LA, that stays in LA. Another one could be going not even San.
Speaker 1Francisco.
Speaker 2It could be going to San Francisco or another one could be going-. Yeah, straight shot, it could be going to Washington.
Speaker 1Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2So that's a question I was asking.
Speaker 2It all depends I mean it's I had no idea when they traffic and when they're transporting narcotics. It's going somewhere and it's already designated for those areas, but it lands somewhere. What happens is like if it's say they bring 400 pounds across, they say, okay, this 400 pounds are going to go to LA, so it goes to LA. Then it says, out of these 400, 100 are going to go to Fresno, another 100 are going to go to Washington, another 100 are going to go to, say, texas, another 100 are going to go to New York. So they separate them and each person that's responsible to take that takes it.
Speaker 1Now a mule. Yes, mules, are they low in the totem pole?
Speaker 2Yes, they're low, but they're trusted enough to transport large amounts of dope.
Speaker 1Are they lower than the?
Speaker 2drug dealer? Absolutely. A lot of the times they are, yes, but it's someone they trust enough to transport that kind of quantities across. And then those same mules that are transporting are bringing back money.
Speaker 1Oh shit, I forgot about that. I forgot the dope comes up north and the money goes down south.
Speaker 2And a lot of the times it's the same person or they have a different person that just picks up money. But the ones that pick up money, obviously that's the profits. Those people are very well trusted.
Speaker 1Now, how long did it take for you to start understanding the game?
Speaker 2Pretty quickly. Like I said, I learned it when I was in King City. Okay, so I saw it and then I brought that experience I saw a little bit in obviously doing the gang stuff. Yeah, when I was in the gangs I still helped other departments do undercover work which you know had to do a little bit with weight, you know with pounds.
Speaker 2Yeah, and then, when I went to majors, I really knew more or less the game. So, um, I hit, I hit the street running, so I knew exactly what I was doing. So it wasn't something that somebody had to teach me or train me. It's like, hey, this is the way things are done.
Speaker 1I really knew what I was doing did you ever work in this majors um task force with, or the sureño gangs? Oh, in gangs, only gangs. Uh, meaning. My question I'm going to ask next is uh, the mexican mafia, right, did you ever encounter them in your operations?
Speaker 2not in in narcotics, in um, in obviously working gangs. We did. We followed a couple of mexican mafia guys and obviously nfers, mr familia members. They were like lieutenants. We followed them around helping cdc, cdcr.
Speaker 1So let me ask you this is the dope gang different than the gang game or the intermingled?
Speaker 2and they intermingle in some cases, but not all cases.
Speaker 1But not all cases, no holy bro, that's news to me, that's news to me. So when?
Speaker 2you were in the dope game, was it? How often were gangs participate in the? Not a whole lot. No way, dude, because a lot of the gang stuff is more like street level. Okay, so you don't have gangs that deal in weight or like in pound quantities. It was rare when we found a gang member that was able to sell you a pound or two. If that was the case, then we would. Obviously they're gang members, so we would definitely go after them too, but it was rare that you would have someone in gangs dealing weight.
Speaker 1Now these suspects in the dope game. Were they from Mexico?
Speaker 2Some were, and some were from here, from the United States.
Speaker 1Now the ones that were from here. Did they have ties to Mexico like family ties?
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1Yes a lot of them did, so I'm starting to see a trend here. Basically, it almost seems like they infiltrated the United States and brought their game over here. Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, that's the game I mean you have. The easiest way is if you have someone from here goes across and then comes back, right.
Speaker 1No issues. What's fucked up part of the game as well is the consumption of drugs by Americans. Oh yeah, Because that's part of the game as well. Right, they wouldn't have such a high business if you know, Americans didn't consume all the dope.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, I mean that's huge. Now I mean something that I've seen over the years in a trend is the cost of how much a pound of, say, meth costs, to the point where when we were dealing, when I was actually in the game a pound of dope or meth would cost anywhere between $5,000 and $12,000, $13,000.
Speaker 1A pound of meth $13,000, $15,000?.
Speaker 2The highest was like $12,000 to $13,000.
Speaker 1A pound of meth $13,000. Right, okay, and how big is a pound of meth?
Speaker 2Like a pound, like the size of a shoe.
Undercover Operations and Tactics
Speaker 1Yeah, it's just the size of that bottle, Okay, the size of a pound of meth $13,000. Right, and what were you going to say next? Nowadays?
Speaker 2I think it's valued at like $800, $1,000. What the hell? What happened? You have a lot of it. You have too much. So the more you have, you have to lower your prices.
Speaker 1That's what it is Now. Did it become? Is there more meth? Because you have more guys in trailers shaking bottles?
Speaker 2I think they're just transporting. I mean they're transporting across the borders and they're just not. I they're transporting across the borders and they're just not. I mean it's just coming through in masses, it's just way, way too much.
Speaker 1In hindsight, looking back, were you guys putting a dent in the drug game?
Speaker 2I wouldn't say we did. But I mean, when a lot of things change, politics has a lot to do with it.
Speaker 1Well, yeah, they're funding it.
Speaker 2Well, not only that, but if you really think about it, if you have at least a secure border, it's hard stuff to come across, but when you have it open, you're going to have a lot of that stuff come through. Secure border it's hard stuff to come across, but when you have it open, you're gonna have a lot of that stuff come through and it's massive. That's why it's, that's why it's cheaper, because there's just so much of it. So if you want to stay in business, you're going to lower your prices. You just get rid of it that's that's.
Speaker 1But there's always a catch-22 to everything. How does that do the drug cartels win or lose? In the long run, they win, they always win.
Speaker 2They're always going to win. It's about money, it's economics.
Speaker 1So it doesn't matter if they're fucking 13,000.
Speaker 2The 13, like say they sell 13 pounds, say like a thousand each, so that's 13,000. We're just hypothetical. Probably for them to make that dope probably cost them like 500 dollars, true so, so they're just, they're making money yeah, it's, and the further east it goes, obviously the more money it gets.
Speaker 1Yeah wow bro. So what other drugs were were really major or prevalent in for?
Speaker 2so when, when, when I was there, we were doing obviously meth and ice, we were doing heroin. Black tar heroin, black tar heroin, yes, so those were the major drugs. And then obviously you had to get. There was marijuana, obviously the cannabis, but I just we hardly ever worked it. There were people in our unit that worked the cannabis portion of it because they liked working it. I never liked working marijuana. Why just, it was just you know they was everywhere. So it's like to me, I just I just didn't care for it that's okay.
Speaker 1No, that makes sense. That makes total sense. Now, dude man, people are trafficking pounds of meth, right, is the meth coming from Mexico? Yeah, what makes Mexico so special that they're able to mass produce meth?
Speaker 2They get the chemicals that they need a lot easier in Mexico, obviously through other means, than they do here in the United States. And obviously, when I was there, you know, for you know, like the late 90s, early 90s, 2000s, 2010s, obviously we had a lot of meth labs in the Central Valley, in that area, but you know, obviously the units, the drug units, put a big dent on it because they were going after all the labs.
Speaker 1What did the labs look like? Hotel rooms trailers no the homes, homes.
Speaker 2People were doing them in homes, in ranches, trailers, you name it, hotel rooms, not so much, but obviously they would rent properties and they would do them in those rental properties.
Speaker 1Were you ever getting information or knowledge of like hey, we have this guy with a meth lab and the cartels are not happy about him, so they're going to kill him.
Speaker 2No, we never ran into that. You never ran into conflicts. Kill them no, we never ran into that. You never ran into conflicts. Never ran into those conflicts. No, Everybody was just getting along in the drug trade. Well, we don't know, because we really never got into those conflicts. Nobody ever told us that there were conflicts. I think the only conflicts that we ever had were more like you know. Obviously, when we arrested them, they would tell us man, we're going to have major problems. And we knew, but that's what you tell them. You know that's nothing personal, this is just my job.
Speaker 1I forgot about the whole arrest process. Bro, for some reason I'm over here thinking you guys are just buying and selling drugs. But the whole arrest thing what does that look like when you do the cars swoop in?
Speaker 2Yeah, so basically what we would do, obviously we would do the operations, we would have them bring the stuff and then we would pinch them with our cars and then we would obviously arrest them. A lot of them were, you know. At least they were non-resistant, so we were able to take them. Some were a little resistant and then obviously others. We were involved in some of, obviously, shootings, and those were minimal, which was good. But then you change your tactics. You don't want to like rush the car, and we changed that to where we would just call them out of the car and just tell me just come back over here. You know, it prevents a lot of issues so the dudes in handcuffs?
Speaker 1the dudes in handcuffs? Does the undercover buyer act like he's getting arrested as well?
Speaker 2um, sometimes we did, and sometimes we would just walk away Like it's just that, it's a tactic. We used to separate. Okay, you want to separate from the actual arrest in case something happens, because obviously you dealt with the crook or with the person that's selling. He's a suspect, so he thinks you're the same thing. So when the arresting comes, if you're there, he thinks that he's getting what. So he thinks you're the same thing. So when the arresting comes, if you're there, he thinks that he's getting what robbed, so he could.
Speaker 2you don't want to be involved in a shooting with him because he could say I didn't know, he was a police officer I always wondered I always I thought he was trying to rip me off, so that's why I shot I always wanted so you do the separation where you're not even involved I like that, so it's safety, I like that.
Speaker 2And then these guys would make comments like all hell's gonna break loose well, some, some would tell us, you know that they were, obviously they were, you know they were in custody. Now they were, there was going to be repercussions because somebody gave them that stuff. They're responsible for it. So obviously they always felt that they were going to get. You know, either someone heard or they would have to pay for the drugs that they lost.
Speaker 1So what is the next steps from? Let's say, I'm one of those guys in handcuffs. My dope just got fucking confiscated, I just got arrested. What happens next?
Speaker 2So what we would do is we would try. Obviously, if you were someone that had ties to other, then we would ask you if you wanted to work for us as an informant, obviously, and then we would obviously get the district attorney involved to where we would be able to sign you up in a contract, and you had to produce three cases, okay, and that's how we would get into other people.
Speaker 1But this almost seems like a lose lose, lose, lose situation for the crook or they never do, they ever win no, obviously if they produce, then you know that that takes into consideration.
Speaker 2You know for what? Obviously they got arrested for I understand that.
Speaker 1But, like dude, your options if you just got caught are to technically be a rat. That's not going to sit well in the eyes of your people, right, they might do they ever get marked for death? Um?
Speaker 2there's a lot of people that do it. They go back and they do the same thing, so it's like we never had issues. You know, like the people that wanted to do it, they would do it, and there were people that they wouldn't do. It says no, hell, no, there were people that wouldn't do it.
Speaker 1No so would you guys be assholes and just say like okay cool, okay cool, we're going to cut you loose. No, for what? Like the ones that didn't want to cooperate Right, Didn't they have to face repercussion from?
Speaker 2their yeah, but obviously they're going to go to jail first and then they were after they're done.
Speaker 1Yeah, but what's jail? I mean how long?
Speaker 2Well, back then we would take it. You know, depends on the amount 10, 20 years.
Speaker 1No way, dude, bro. That's serious stuff, dude, you're not messing around. You were dealing with some very important people and giving away a lot of lengthy sentences, right?
Speaker 2And if we took it state, they could easily get eight, 10 years too.
Speaker 1What is the goal? Is the goal to take the drugs off the street?
Speaker 2That was our goal Take the drugs off the street and confiscate any profits of money. That's how you hurt the cartels is, if you confiscate their profits. Did you gain satisfaction from that? Yes, I liked it. I mean, it's like okay, this is the only way you're going to be able to hurt by taking their profits. So not so much the dope. You take the dope and it's like they could make more. Right, so it's just the cost of doing business, but when you take the profits already, that's money that's actually going to them. That's where you heard them.
Speaker 1It's cat and mouse and cops and robbers right, that's all it is yes and you were doing your job extremely well, as your whole unit was, and you guys were, I would say, making a difference because, you're right, nobody likes their money getting taken away, right, whether it's one dollar or a thousand dollars you're talking a lot of money sometimes.
Speaker 2How much money? I mean? We had seizures up to like one million six hundred thousand five three hundred. So that's how you hurt them give.
Speaker 1We know you mentioned the shootout. What was one of the scenarios where the shootout transpired?
Speaker 2well, I mean, we had one where obviously I was posing as a supplier of chemicals that are needed to obviously manufacture meth and these people were trying to buy, you know, 10 buckets of what we call pseudo-ephedrine pills.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And we were. You know, we were going back and forth negotiations the day that we actually were involved in that. We were going to be involved in the transaction. Obviously they have the money, I have the product. They had already seen the product because, like I said, within the case we make sure that we show what we have in a tactical way and then we don't show it again.
Speaker 2It's like, hey, you know, I have the stuff, but I don't know if you have the money. So you got to show me your money, stuff, right, I don't know if you have the money. So you got to show me your money and we kind of went back and forth. He's, you know, he showed me a bag. He says, hey, this is, this is where the money is. That it says, okay, um, just open it so I could see it's the money and then that's it. I'm not gonna count it or anything like that. This is not what we want to do. And then we're gonna go somewhere else. I'm gonna give you your stuff and you're gonna give me my. And we went back and forth for a while and they wouldn't budge. But he says the money's there. So it's like, eh, then obviously they want to move to a more isolated area. It's like, no, we're not going to go there unless I see your money.
Speaker 1You know, it's just like getting back and forth. When you say isolated area, bro, are you talking about like orchards?
Speaker 2Well, when we do these operations, it's big parking lots, but they want to move away from where most of the crowd is at. They want to be more isolated, you know, where there's not a whole lot of people. That's what they want.
Speaker 1What is that reason?
Speaker 2One is they want to see who moves with you and the other one. They may be willing to rob you more in a more secluded area, and obviously that's one of the things that we train for and that we're pretty experienced with. It's like, no're gonna, we're gonna do it here, after you show me the stuff. Hey, we'll move over there, that's what you want to do, but that's too late, then the game's up. So that was one of the things and obviously he didn't do it. So then they drove off the line. I says hey, didn't see the money, but they claimed to have the money. And then they try to block him in and then obviously the shooting started.
Speaker 1How many suspects were there? Two, and they were armed With handguns or rifles no handguns. Did they get shot? Yes, Did they both get deceased?
Speaker 2One.
Speaker 1One One and the other one was injured, and then the injured one gets transported to prison.
Speaker 2Well, he has to go to the hospital first, right, go to the hospital first, and then you know, after you know it's a lengthy process. Then eventually you know he gets booked and then goes up to prison if he has to.
Speaker 1Man, that just sounds like. It just sounds like there's no winning in the life of crime. It's like I know there's no winning in the life of crime. There isn't.
Speaker 2Even if you're a successful drug dealer. You know what?
Speaker 1Everybody has their day.
Speaker 2You're going to be always looking over your shoulder and you're always going to have a target on your back, and I've seen people that have done it for years and years and then eventually they get caught. And, like I told you the earlier one where I told you that person would always show up with a suit, yes, so he had been in this game for years and years. He told me, I think like 35 years, wow, 35 years, wow, 40 years. He was an older gentleman but always showed up in a suit and tie and he was one of those that when, when you're in this business, he was always early, and that's rare. It's usually they're kind of late because they want to see uh, it's just the game they play, but this guy was always early and that's the only thing that kind of scared me, um, in a sense that he was always early.
Speaker 2So, um, when we decided to exchange, um, our you know, my product for his money, um, he obviously was early. Uh, so I met with him, I gave him, I told me I have all the pseudo-affirming pills you want in the car and he got to see it. So I gave him my key to my car and he gave me his key to his money because he had the money in his car okay, and I told him hey, once we uh, we're done, we're gonna call each other, I'm gonna bring back your car and you bring me back mine.
Speaker 2And he, that's, that's the only way I got him to do the deal in in a public place, because he wanted to obviously do it, you know, in a hotel room and we don't want to do that. So I told them we'll exchange cars. You'll be able to see my product that's in the car and I'll give you my key to my car. You could drive off, and then you give me your key to your car and I'll drive off and then, after I'm done you know, obviously, counting the money make sure it's all good and you get your product. You look at it, it's all good, there's no issues. Then we call each other and we'll meet and I'll give you your car, you give me mine.
Speaker 2Is that what happened? No, well, obviously we're not gonna let him drive off. Obviously I've. Obviously I showed him the product. I gave him the key, he gave me his because he had the money. I gave him my key, but my key only opened the door. It wasn't going to turn the car on. Is that by design? Yes, we didn't want to drive off is that uh?
Speaker 1is that a? It's a?
Speaker 2tactical tactical vehicle? No, it was. It's a car that we use for undercover. So basically, I gave him the key that only opened the door, but not it was not going to be in the ignition.
Speaker 1What other little gadgets did you guys have? Or cool little things?
Speaker 2that's, that's it. I mean, you just got to learn how to play the game with them right, and obviously he couldn't. He got in the car try to start it and he couldn't. And he knew the game was up and obviously at the end I was able to talk to him for a little bit. He was kind of upset.
Speaker 1And he said at what point?
Speaker 2at what point after we, after we arrested him, we took him to, obviously, to the office, to the station. I wanted to talk to him to see if he wanted to, obviously, you know, work for us as an informant and he told me no. But, um, he says it was pretty, pretty spiffy. He told me, uh, how we tricked him. He says that nobody had ever done this to him. Um, and that's how I learned like 30 to 40 years. He says that nobody has ever. He says, yeah, have police gone after me?
Speaker 1yes, but nobody's ever gotten me how is it the police have gone after him but never gotten?
Speaker 2I don't know, they just probably just couldn't get him. He just probably never showed up or he would send someone else it just he was pretty, he was pretty smart, he wasn't. He wasn't like, uh, you know, an average person he was, he was in this game for a while, so he knew. So that you know, like I said, the showing up early, I would call him and tell him I need you to meet me here. I mean, he was like they're constantly like fast, so right now you mentioned, he wasn't.
Speaker 1You know he was smart. How many intelligent people did you guys come across?
Speaker 2uh, there was quite a bit that were, that were, that were pretty, pretty smart the way they wanted to do things. But the way they wanted to do things kind of goes against what we wanted to do. So you had to kind of turn it on. So, in a sense like, um, nobody likes doing anything in public, right, right, because you know it's everybody could see.
Speaker 2So games we played, um, we would meet with them and we would tell them you know, I'm interested in buying 10 of your, you know, pounds or whatever, and I have the money. You know we talk. It's like hey, you know, this is not a first time deal, you know that kind of stuff. You, you talk to them about continuing business and then we would show them, obviously our money in a tactical way, and then I tell them we're not going to do things out here. You know I have a business, you know a businessman, I'm going to take you to my business. We could do it there, but only after you know that I have my stuff and I know you have your stuff. I'm just not going to take you there and we're going to wait. We're not going to do that. We want to make sure we leave and the game that I would play.
Major Narcotics Unit and Drug Trafficking
Speaker 2And I says, hey, I don't like doing things in public, just like you. And one of the reasons is and then we would always have a patrol car ready and when the conversation started we would have them just drive by where we were at on the street and I would always point. I said that's why we don't do it out here, because they're always everywhere. So you're like, yeah, you're right, so you have to change the way they think to make them think that they're going to go to a safe place and you're protecting them also you're manipulating the environment.
Speaker 2Right, that's freaking nuts, bro. You have to be able to do it. If you can't, then they're in control and they do all kinds of crazy stuff that's so wild, bro, that's freaking nuts.
Speaker 1I would have never even imagined that or thought about that. Fresno, how many suppliers can operate out of there? Is it more than one are you looking at? Are you looking at meth bundles that have a scorpion logo and one has a spider logo, or that's not how it works.
Speaker 2You know, for us we ran into, obviously we ran into the scorpion, a pony, but those are the markings that it had. But it's multiple people that deal through there. Like we had people from Michoacan, we had people from Sinaloa, jalisco, we had people from everywhere you know, know, from those major states in um, in mexico, but they knew each other but they were not dealing. You know they were not the same so their acquaintances but they would not. They were not dealing from the same person.
Speaker 2They, they had their own business they did their own things and they're also not killing each other, no, but they would hang out together, so or they would talk. So they would say, look, I have my own clients, I'm not going to mess with your clients. But if I want, like if one of them wanted dope from one of the other guys, they would deal with each other but he would sell it to him, but obviously at a higher price. But they would supply each other, but they were not going to their own clients Like, hey, you don't deal with my clients, I won't deal with your clients. This is where I'm dealing with this. I don't want you in there dealing with other people.
Speaker 1Is there that much of a market where you're able to do that?
Speaker 2That's the way they were doing it. They had their own people, but they knew each other, but they just didn't deal with each other. So, wild dude. To me it was just kind of odd, you know, because they had certain places they would all go to and either play soccer, volleyball or cards or whatever.
Speaker 1You know, almost seems like in the recent years. If you look like in the Victorville area I believe it was you see these mass murders or these murders and you can tell, nah, there's something connected with this one, right? Do you see those as well?
Speaker 2well, and in fresno there was a couple, uh, we had one where, um, they, uh, they killed four people that came from, obviously from the la area, went to fresno no, it was.
Speaker 2It was, you know, back when I was there, like in the 2009, 2010, somewhere in there. It was a dope ripoff and obviously they killed everybody, including the female, and I was able to work with one of the homicide detectives on that case because it had drug types, and it was interesting just going over that homicide the way they did it. And then Clovis had one the same way, where it was a dope ripoff and they killed all the people. They took them out to an orchard and they and they started killing her and one guy got away and that's how they were able to obviously catch the main suspects on that case.
Speaker 1What did you find interesting about the murder in the Fresno with the dope?
Speaker 2Well, the interesting part of it is, when they started to investigate it and that was part of it, because I got assigned to with one of the guys is that they had like a crew that they buy drugs from dope dealers and then they order a bunch more and they sucker them in. But it's not to purchase, it's to rip them off An ambush, yeah. So basically they ambush them and that's what was happening. But it's a group that was working our area, but then they move them around. So some of the interesting things that happened in that case we found that they were doing murders in other states or they were doing murders in southern california. So they move them around. So what happens is when they got hot, they would move them to out of state and they would bring the other group that was out of state into our area. So it's a group that was moving around in the united states. Once they all got hot, they would go back to mexico and bring a new crew in.
Speaker 2Of killers yes, that was something that we were kind of like. It was interesting the way they would do it. What would you consider these guys hitmen? They were hitmen, yeah.
Speaker 1For the cartel.
Speaker 2Either for the cartels or they were just hitmen for themselves. They were a group of people just ripping dope dealers off. That's all they were doing.
Speaker 1What the heck man that is so freaking, wild dude.
Speaker 2Yeah, so it's like I said, it's just the dope.
Speaker 1World is just different. Did you guys come across the Santa Muerte All dope dealers had that.
Speaker 2Where did you see it? We would, I mean, we would see it a lot like in little shops. You know, obviously, like Botanicas, you know where they sell that stuff. They would sell the statues there and then we would see them at people's homes. Obviously, when they would get arrested, we would see that they had the altars there. We would see the Santa Muerte in their cars, the little statues or the little pictures of it. And it's just because they're obviously they look at it as someone that's going to, they pray to it and they're going to get protected, which it's all nonsense. It's just witchcraft, that's all it is.
Speaker 1Bro, but that has to be an eerie feeling braiding a pad and seeing an altar of the Santa Muerte.
Speaker 2Like, what feelings did it give you? No, it raises the hair in the back of your neck. I mean, I'm being honest. That's why I asked you, bro. So we knew that the way we would do it is we would go like this is the way we would do it we would go to the stores, the Botonicas there in Fresno Obviously it's downtown Fresno, on Fulton Mall, and we would just sit out there at the stores and watch people go in and out and then we'd watch what they were buying or what they were carrying. So what we would do is we would follow the guy that had the biggest statue because, okay, he's going somewhere. So we would follow him, and a lot of the times they were taking the statue to where they were stashing their stuff because they wanted protection. But it's an eerie feeling. It is when you go into the house or an apartment. Did it feel evil? Yeah, you could feel it. I mean it really raised the hair on your skin. I mean it did you?
Speaker 1could feel it Now, when you're messing with some of these people, do you feel the evilness out of some of these people?
Speaker 2In some you do, because they believe that you shouldn't have been able to arrest them, because they truly believe that they should be protected. And a lot of the people that have or they deal with the Santa Muerte, they're violent people. They're a lot more violent than you know back then, when they had obviously Malverde and all that, jesus Malverde.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2That's a different world than this one. The ones with the Santa Muerte are the more violent. Obviously, individuals they're more into the violence, Would they?
Speaker 1care to kill a cop? No, it wouldn't bother them one bit, mm-mm, they wouldn't blink an eye, they wouldn't blink an eye, no.
Speaker 2So that's why I tell you that's an important thing is always respect. Treat them like human beings, nothing personal. That's something that I always told them, even though they were the baddest guy. They were upset. It's like, hey, it's nothing personal, I go, this is my job. Your job was to deal dope, my job is to catch you. I just had a better day today.
Speaker 1Oh, because they were legitimately getting pissed off.
Speaker 2Yeah, and one of the things like, if I did undercover work, one of the things that I would do to make sure that this person understood that I was not an informant or a rat. I would show them my badge, oh okay, and tell me I'm not an informant, I'm not a rat, I'm a cop.
Speaker 1Okay.
Speaker 2Okay, just to let you know I go. There was nothing personal in this thing, it's just my job. Wow, dude.
Speaker 1That's so sketchy.
Speaker 2Yeah, but that's do it because we didn't want them to think that we crossed them yeah, we had that. We were informants or rats, and then they get out and they still have that, that, and then you've been on the street.
Speaker 1That's not a good thing so what are some of the reactions you saw out of these people anger, cussing, some crying sometimes, for the most part, I saw people weren't angry, they just like man.
Speaker 2I thought you were my buddy man, my friend, you know I trusted you that and some people was like man, I can't believe it. I knew you were a cop. I knew you were a cop and it's like, if you want to know you were a cop, you were not dealt with me right. So basically that's their excuse. But a lot of them, because you, the way you treated them, they weren't like upset to where they're like hey, man, we've ever meet you, we're gonna do commit, not none of that, right, it's, it's the way you treat people.
Speaker 1Bro, it's like donnie brasco man. Personally. Did that ever make you feel a certain way, like? Did you ever feel like, oh, I betrayed this guy, or you totally understood?
Speaker 2no, I mean, you can understand your. Your job is you. This is where the crossing of the lines are at. If you notice, um, the the years, you have officers being arrested for drug trafficking, involved in that kind of stuff. I think what happens is when you go undercover, it's a role, it's like the movies, right Right, but there's a line you can't cross. You always got to remember you're grounded, you're a cop, you're not a crook, you're not a drug dealer, right, you're not a gangster, you're a cop, that's the a crook. You're not a drug dealer, you're not a gangster, you're a cop. That's the line you cannot cross. And I think what happens is, if you're not careful, you could easily end up in that other line where you think you're there. Actually You're a crook, you're a gang member, or you're a dope dealer. You're not. You're a police officer, that's it, you're not, nothing else. And I think that's the line you can't cross.
Speaker 1Let me ask you this Were you ever pressured to do drugs?
Speaker 2No. So what happens is you have to. This is the way I did it when I was undercover. I never told somebody that I was a user. I never told them I'm not going to use drugs. No, I told them I'm a businessman, I like to make money, just like you do I. No, I told him I'm a businessman, I like to make money, just like you do. I don't touch my product, I don't do my product, I don't do drugs, I sell them and that gets you away from them. Ever telling you.
Speaker 1Well, you get no. No, that's I mean the way you told me. Right now you convinced me like oh yeah, dude the businessman.
Speaker 2That's all it is. You always have to be a businessman. It's a business. We're going to be a business partner. That's the way you have to treat it. You can't treat it any other way. But did they ever try? No, all the people that I've ever dealt with never had any issues. It was always an understanding that I'm not a user, I don't use. It's all a business.
Speaker 1Wow, dude, so then you left there.
Speaker 2Did you retire from that position? No, um I, what I did is I. I stayed at uh majors for um, obviously for the pd. Then my last two years, um, I ended up getting assigned to haida, which is uh another unit. It has to do with uh narcotics, but it's uh you're tied with like you know the, you know dea, the, the state, and they would go after the same traffickers, but they were more involved in what they called T3s wires. Those are the kind of investigations that we did there my last two years before.
Speaker 1I went back to the street so it almost just seemed like you were going higher and higher and higher deeper and deeper into that world. Right, what did you do to yourself to keep yourself grounded from completely engulfing yourself in that world? I mean, I'm sure there's some undercover cops that just live, breathe and undercover.
Confrontations and Shootout Experiences
Speaker 2Yeah, but all it is is just the role. That's what I tell you. You have to remember who you are. Right, you just got to. That's what I tell you. You can't. You have to remember who you are Right. You just can't say you know, I'm a crook too. That's not a good thing. If you do that, then you're in the wrong business. Right, you're a police officer. You can't remember, you can't forget that. It's awesome, dude, my wife. There was times where I would go home and and I would have to keep the case going I would call people from home. While I was at home, I would call them and you know, just play the game that I was out somewhere. I mean, that's all it is. It's just a game, right, but you have to stay grounded, you, you just can't forget who you are. The minute you forget who you are is is you already crossed over on the other line, and that's where the bad stuff comes in Absolutely.
Speaker 1Did you ever experience that in your career? Dirty Cops oh, absolutely, you did.
Speaker 2Absolutely. I mean, if you really think about it, you worked around a few people you talk about the Bakersfield officer, demaso Diaz, and some of those We've had, obviously going through teaching being an instructor in the two-week narcotics school. We had a group of individuals from up north and they were talking about certain things they were doing and we told them hey, you guys can't be doing that, you guys are borderline, going to get in trouble, you guys could end up getting arrested. Well, we're trying to give them advice. Wait, what was happening? Well, they were doing things that they're not supposed to be doing. Who? There was a group of individuals up in the north end, up in like a northern state, you know, like up in north.
Speaker 1But they were attending the class.
Speaker 2Yeah, they were attending because they have to attend our class, our training, so it's like a certification that they could work Right, right, right right. And when we go through that training, we tell them the do's and the don'ts of what you should be doing and things that you cannot be doing and things you can't hide. Well, they were doing things that they shouldn't be doing. That was kind of like borderline. But where were they doing this In the classroom? No, no, no, in their own cases, like in the cases they were doing.
Speaker 1Oh so you guys are talking and they were telling us, you know like, hey, you know, we did that yeah right.
Speaker 2And so they're like whoa, whoa, whoa, time out, what are you guys doing? And then we tell them it's like hey, you guys can't be doing that. You guys are going to end up in hot water. You guys could easily be, were they violating some form of law.
Speaker 2Absolutely than anything else. Okay, so we told him hey, don't do that, because you guys could end up in hot water. Well, obviously, some of these guys don't, you know some of them. They just they're like hey, I guess they're okay with it. You know the with us talking to a mentor and trying to mentor them yeah, they're probably like oh, this is the way we always done.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's exactly right, that's, and one of them was very specific that he just didn't care, correct. And obviously we target him. A target him a lot more by targeting means that we talk to him a lot more, saying, hey, if you don't stop, I'm telling you the way you're saying you're going to end up one in jail, arrested or hurt. Okay, I'm just telling you. It's not going to end up well. Well, eight months later he was arrested in Philadelphia by the feds. He transported 300 pounds of marijuana and it was transported to the feds over there and he was a police officer, a deputy.
Speaker 1Hold on man. Was he in the performance of his duties? No.
Speaker 2So he was just a regular.
Speaker 1He was a criminal.
Speaker 2No, well, yeah, basically he was doing illegal stuff, but he was a police officer. That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1It does happen. But the stuff he was saying he didn't care about policy, so he sure as hell didn't care about the law.
Speaker 2Right. So obviously he thought he was actually transporting the stuff to another.
Speaker 1Obviously another crook and he wasn't going to make money off of it, yeah. But it happens, it does happen in all agencies.
Speaker 2All agencies. Even now it does happen. I can tell you there's. If you really look at it, if you search it, you see a lot of police officers being arrested on a daily basis, a constant basis.
Speaker 1When you and your friend saw that your partner were, you like, oh look, it's this guy.
Speaker 2Yeah, we were like we told him. I mean, it's like we told him. Exactly bro, you know, because I mean, we've been in this, we were doing this business for a long time, so we know the do's and the don'ts. It's like, hey, you guys can't be doing that. And we tell them, look, don't do things that are going to get you in trouble, because we've already been there, we're trying to prevent you guys from getting in trouble.
Speaker 1Facts yeah, that's it, people, not to do those mistakes. I would like for you to give the young cops advice. In their current circumstance, with the inexperience of communication skills, current modern technology, the political climate, you have mayors that don't actually back their cops at times, chiefs that don't back their cops. What are some ways they can survive the career that don't?
Speaker 2back their cops. What are some ways they can survive the career? One integrity stay within policy and within the law. You follow those three. You shouldn't have any issues. That's it. That's all you have. I mean that's it. And if you're weak in any part of your skills, like communication skills, writing skills, take a class. Or if you don't want to take a class, it's real simple. Everybody has good report writers in their departments, officers that write real well. Ask them for a copy of their reports. Hey, could I get a copy of your report of the way you write and just read the reports of how they write Right Communication skills hey, take a class if you have to, or, or, or, just learn from your veteran officers how they communicate with people. That's how you learn. But you, you have to be willing to do it.
Speaker 1Would you agree that they also have to put forth extra effort in order to accomplish Absolutely?
Speaker 2If you're weak somewhere, you have to be able to want to learn that skill. If you take the effort, you'll learn it, but if you don't, then it's on you.
Speaker 1Because, dude, I really don't like bashing the new generation. That's really not what I'm doing, right, I try to put them up on game, but it's almost feels like a sense of entitlement within this generation where it's like nah man, you actually got to work hard and to be able to grind, especially in law enforcement, right, Would you agree that there's no room for error? That's life or death.
Speaker 2Right and like we tell them. It's like, as long as you're within policy and within the law, you're not going to have any issues, regardless of what it is Within policy and within the law.
Speaker 1Now what if there's times where the politics try to make an example out of them? Will you think it'll still be all right?
Speaker 2Absolutely, If you're within policy and within the law. What are they going to do to you Exactly? They may have you fight for it a little bit. Yeah, you're going to go through the ringer, but if you're there it's like well, policy didn't violate, or what law didn't violate?
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2What are they going to get you on? How important is case law? Case law is everything you don't want to make case law. That's the thing, and that's what happens with case law. Case law is brought because of bad behaviors, bad practices. So if you follow policy, you have to know your policy, and I think that's what happens a lot with new officers they don't read their policies and they don't understand their policies, and that's how they get in trouble.
Speaker 1What's one thing you can tell a new officer if he reads it, doesn't understand it. What can it be the next steps? Ask questions.
Career Advice for New Officers
Speaker 2That's what your trainer's for, ask him questions and I think, the way you know, nowadays obviously I'm not working anymore, but I still talk to people that train yeah, the younger officers or new officers there is a trend that you know like there's some entitlement by the new officers. They don't like to get obviously told what to do. But there's also another part of newer trainers with less experience that are training also and the mentality is different. The mentality is not I need to train this officer to succeed. That's what a trainer does. Right, you should be as a trainer. You're saying you know what? I trained 10 officers, or 10 individuals. Nine passed the last one man. I just couldn't get them to do what I wanted to. That's going to be a fail, but you want to pass nine out of 10. You have 90% rate, which is good on the positive side, but the mentality of new trainers is how many guys could I get out or wash out? That's not a trainer's job.
Speaker 2I've heard that from other people before. Your job is to train someone, and I think that's how you get evaluated as a trainer. If you're training people correctly, they're going to do their job.
Speaker 1Well, I think Americans have a huge leadership issue in this present day and age. I don't believe that they've gotten the experience or understand the right way to lead people and it's always about the people that you're leading, not yourself. But I think a lot of people fail to grasp that concept.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think that happens. I think just the nature of the politics nowadays. I think we as police officers, everybody says, well, you took a note? Yeah, we take a note as a police officer to obviously serve the community, protect the community, to protect the Constitution.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Where does it say that you're going to be used as a political pawn? Right, that doesn't say anywhere. There's a lot of things that I mean. Obviously, the way the politics are now is like back when I started. That wouldn't be tolerated. You know, there's just no way. You just couldn't, you just would know there's no way you would be able to allow certain things to occur. It just wouldn't. It wouldn't be tolerated.
Speaker 1Do you think you would be able to survive a law enforcement career in this present day and age?
Speaker 2Yes, as long as you follow policy and the law Right, and that's it. It almost seems so easy. Huh, it is easy, but sometimes you lose focus and you don't understand where things are going. You have to be able to understand that.
Speaker 1Before we wrap it up, I want to just do a wild question out there, man DEI, the hiring of. You know, I've seen a lot of females being hired extra right and I watch a lot of YouTube videos, police activities, body-worn cameras and I'm not taking a shot at female cops, man, but do you think some people, including males, should not be police officers?
Santa Muerte and Cartel Violence
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean there is, Unfortunately there is. And law enforcement, police work, is not meant for everybody. Elaborate on that? Well, it's not. I think a lot of people that come into law enforcement the newer generation doesn't understand what it is. They just say, hey, I want to be a police officer. And then when they actually start they're like, oh, that's not what I want to do.
Speaker 1They're like I want to be a police officer, I want to take a picture a TikTok.
Speaker 2All they're doing is they're.
Speaker 1Playing the part. Playing the part Getting the tattoos, the sleeve.
Speaker 2It's different. That wasn't back then. Back then you wanted to be a police officer, the pink fingernails, the pink handcuffs. I see it all, man. Yeah, I mean it's I don't know. It's just Like I said, it's a different world.
Speaker 1I mean it is it's way different, it's not my world anymore, but I was never a cop. You know what I mean. But it's just it.
Speaker 2The it changed, that world changed and I could tell you as, uh, as a background investigator that's, we see it too. I mean, we see certain people that come in and you're like man, I don't know. We, we talk to them. Our job is just to do uh, you know, obviously do their background. They're making sure that you know they're able to work in law enforcement. And then I go a bit step beyond. I have a conversation with them. At the very end I say, hey, do you actually know what you're getting into? And I give them advice. You need to understand that this is not like an 8 to 9 job. There's mandatory overtime. Sometimes there's times that they're going to call you back. You have to stay. Whether you want to go home, you're going to miss a lot of time. Do to call you back. You have to stay. Whether you want to go home, you're going to miss a lot of time. Do you understand that? And and I always tell them look a law enforcement is not for everybody. Have a plan b.
Speaker 2Facts just in case it doesn't work out, what is your plan b?
Speaker 1so you're a background investigator. Now what is some advice for somebody aspiring to be a cop like? What are some things you would recommend? Obviously, staying out of trouble. What are some things you would recommend, obviously, staying out of trouble.
Speaker 2What are some other things? I think the biggest thing is make sure that your writing skills, communication skills, are excellent or good, that you're able to communicate with people writing skills and obviously the biggest thing is make sure that this is the field you want to be in.
Speaker 1What are some of the major disqualifying factors for some of these candidates?
Speaker 2There's a lot of it. I mean, a lot of it has to do with you know the behavior, poor behavior, drugs, arrest. You know multiple citations. There's a lot of things, obviously. That's it. Big one is DUIs, dv. You know domestic violence issues. It's just different. The way things are nowadays. It's a lot different. If you really want to be into law enforcement, stay away from all those issues.
Speaker 1That's it. Facts, man, facts. Well, I want to thank you for driving all the way down here, man, and sitting down and having this conversation, bro, you shared a lot of good experience, dude.
Speaker 2Well, thank you for having me First time in a podcast.
Speaker 1You killed it, bro. You did amazing man. Hopefully we'll get to see you on another podcast. I'll keep in touch. I want to hear more of your stories. Dude, All right, Just let me know, Absolutely, Thank you. Thank you, bro. There you guys have it, folks. Wow man.
Speaker 2Undercover know you can't beat it. If you like what you saw, make sure you hit that subscribe button. Love you keep pushing forward. Story never ends, thank you.
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