Hector Bravo UNHINGED
Official Hector Bravo Podcast
Hector Bravo UNHINGED
Inside the Mind: How Trauma Shapes Behavior
What happens when trauma meets institutions? Dr. Ashley, a forensic psychologist with a master's in forensic psychology and doctorate in clinical psychology, takes us on a profound journey through the psychological realities of prison life and trauma's lasting impact.
The conversation begins with Ashley's unique path into psychology, sparked by a childhood fascination with criminal profiling and deepened through years working in state hospitals, forensic institutions, and mental health facilities. Unlike traditional academic routes, Ashley's experience delivering pizza, working in bars, and serving in high-security settings provided a real-world education that textbooks couldn't match.
Ashley brilliantly unpacks the psychological dynamics of prison environments, describing how violence becomes a language and "swift justice" creates its own cultural norms. She challenges common misconceptions about psychopathy versus trauma responses, explaining how institutional settings often fail to distinguish between developmental disabilities, brain injuries, substance-induced behaviors, and trauma responses.
The most eye-opening segments explore trauma's physiological effects—how it impairs memory, disrupts relationships, and creates disconnection. Ashley explains why correctional officers and military veterans experience high rates of PTSD, suicide, and substance abuse, offering compassionate insight into the "thousand-yard stare" and dissociative behaviors that loved ones often misinterpret as indifference or dishonesty.
Through powerful anecdotes about manipulation tactics, vicarious trauma, and institutional failures, Ashley advocates for trauma-informed approaches that recognize everyone's unique experiences. Her perspective on empathy as a learned skill rather than an innate quality provides hope that even broken systems can improve through greater understanding.
Whether you work in corrections, mental health, or simply want to better understand the human mind under pressure, this conversation offers rare wisdom from someone who's witnessed humanity at its most vulnerable. Listen, learn, and perhaps discover a more compassionate way to view both yourself and others who carry invisible wounds.
Hector Bravo. Unhinged Chaos is now in session. Welcome back to our channel Warriors. Another banger as we continue into Season 2. Today I have a special guest, a friend of mine by the name of Ashley, a licensed psychologist, a psychologist guys who may or may not have worked in the state of california at one point in time. What up, ashley?
Speaker 2:hey how you doing good you I'm well, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me oh man, this, this conversation is uh like a year or two in the making yeah we've. We've a minute now. Yeah probably a year, a year, something like that yeah. And you are a master at what you do. Professional psychologist.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I have a master's in forensic psychology and a doctorate in clinical psychology, so I've worked in like institutions forensics.
Speaker 1:Damn, Before we dive into all the juicy good stuff where did you grow up? At what state?
Speaker 2:I grew up in New Hampshire, actually New.
Speaker 1:Hampshire. Yeah, when did New York come into play?
Speaker 2:I went to school. When I went to undergrad I went to New York and then I kind of moved down in Long Island in the city and stuff, and then I came out to California to get my doctorate and I've kind of been back and forth.
Speaker 1:At what point in time in your life, as a young child, did you decide you wanted to be a psychologist, or did this come later on in life?
Speaker 2:So you asked that we have like an essay for internships, that we have to answer that question. So I didn't know. So I called my mom and she was like well, when you were 11.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:So I used to think that I didn't know how to read very well, and then I picked up some like crime books and so, um, in like sixth grade, I into, uh, the fbi profiler, um, john douglas I don't know if you've seen that show mind hunter yeah so the book was written in like 92 yeah and so I read that.
Speaker 1:So when I went to the fbi building in dc apparently I was like I'm gonna work here someday okay so I wanted to go kind of like the profiler law enforcement route when you and you what you did, kind of do, if you think about it but yeah, I mixed a little bit right. Um, when you visited that fbi building, was it a family vacation or something?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, we were just going to like museums.
Speaker 1:I think it's so cool that like at a young age, those trips can be impactful yeah, and I didn't know I had to call my mom. No, that's us looking back in hindsight now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I actually really wanted to do the profiling. It was kind of in the time, too, when Silence of the Lambs came out, so everyone's like, oh, you want to be like Clarice Starling, or whatever.
Speaker 1:Did you?
Speaker 2:No, I didn't, I just genuinely liked, did you? No, I didn't, I just genuinely liked True crime. Like true crime. I didn't see Silence of the Lambs for like until I was older, but I just like understood, like behavior-wise and I don't know, so I wanted to do like the serial killer thing.
Speaker 1:There is a huge infatuation with true crime, serial killers and prison. Why is that, from your point of view, killers and prison?
Speaker 2:why is that from your point of view? Um, it's kind of like a fantasy world in a sense and, like you know, like romanticized in a sense, like the crime of, like you know, like there's a couple shows but like lifetime kind of started out as making it like this dramatic, romantic, like oh, you're right you know husband cheats on the wife and love yeah, like the, the mr, like fatal attraction type of like whatever.
Speaker 2:Um, and there's actually a name for um, tell us so. Um, you know, like there's people who like like you, you know Scott Peterson, and like the Night Stalker and they like, write letters to them and like infatuate with them right, like people who unfortunately work in institutions and like have relationships with. You know rapists and murderers and you know violent criminals.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's a term for it. It's called hebristophilia.
Speaker 1:Hebristophilia.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's like an attraction to violent offenders.
Speaker 1:So if I'm a female correctional officer and I have sexual interactions with an inmate, does that make me one of those?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's not like a technical like term that like is used in any way other than like. That's just a name for it. You know, like there's all these philias that we have, right, um, but I do think there is kind of like. That's kind of like a perversion, like paraphilia, where, like you're attracted to, you know, inmates or criminals or oh this is going to be a good episode humans humans in general?
Speaker 1:are we geared that way, like almost to a dark side to us?
Speaker 2:so it's kind of like yeah, like that, what is nature, correct, correct, I think that you know, sometimes like a serial killer, for example, it's almost like the ultimate, like freedom in a sense.
Speaker 1:So I wasn't referring to serial killers. I was more so talking about like historical, like gladiator Rome fights barbarianism, kind of um like cavemen.
Speaker 2:The brutality is that embedded in our dna I mean I think it's like, like, so, yeah, so like it's almost like the ultimate freedom of like being able to be like, yeah, like human nature. I mean, if you look in nature, animals are violence. Like animal. I mean, you know people go to like the pier to watch, you know the sea lions and stuff and like the violence that you're like coming from like a perspective of like this is violence.
Speaker 2:Like they're pushing each other off, they're like, you know, mounting, you know each other and like it's just, but like there's just a certain level of violence and thing in nature, and like it's, you know, I'm so freaking glad that you were talking about this.
Speaker 1:Wow, I've never talked to a psychologist in public. It's usually in a confidential setting. Everybody's going to learn all my dirty little thoughts. I want to know what's normal and what's not Good therapy?
Speaker 2:No for sure. I want to know what's normal and what's not Good therapy.
Speaker 1:No, for sure. So what does going to school consist of for this, as far as length-wise and programs?
Speaker 2:Well, so.
Speaker 2:I was not a scholar, so I took the long route. So when I was in high school I took a psychology class and like that's, and actually someone brought a gun to my school right after Columbine, and like I was, it was literally like the same month, I think. Um, and I started like being interested in like why would someone do something like that? Like what is going on in their head? And then I did a psychology class what is going on in their head? And then I did a psychology class and so I went to undergrad and did psychology with a criminal justice minor. And then that's when I was like getting into it. And then John Jay college of criminal justice in New York city it's like a well-known criminal justice school. So I basically like begged my way into there because I didn't have a good enough GPA, and they were like now, and I was like my way into there because I didn't have a good enough GPA, and they were like no, and I was like well, one of my professors was just like just keep bothering them.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And finally, I think they just got annoyed with me and let me in. Um and I got my master's in forensic psychology there. So I did a lot of like forensic assessments and like psychopathy stuff and, um, I worked at, uh, the forensic state hospital there, um, and got a lot of experience working with people like criminals, um like criminally insane, and then basically at that point I was just working off of experience to get into school.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And my, my doctor. I got in clinical psych because it's like general, you can do anything with it, so, but you didn't have to like take tests to get into my school, like it was easier to get into. So it, all of my experience, is what really got me where I'm at. So it took me. I started undergrad in 99 and I got my doctorate in 2018. I started undergrad in 99, and I got my doctorate in 2018. Now, if I count all the years that I went, it's 13 years.
Speaker 1:Most people could do that in 8 to 10 years. So you mean to tell me there's different paths to reach the end of the tunnel and there's different. Okay, okay, what's the average? Let's say you're an.
Speaker 2:Like eight to 10 years to get a doctorate.
Speaker 1:Average yeah, and you have one of those. Yeah yeah, you got to excuse me, I'm from Brawley, I don't know what the hell, I don't know Like associates, bachelors, masters.
Speaker 2:It took me like I did not go through straight through school, which, like you can kind of tell in jobs, like some people just go straight through school and I just wasn't a scholar, so I had to take the long route.
Speaker 1:You know, that's why I like you man. I don't like book smart people I like. No, I was like delivering pizza. I literally delivered pizza after I got my doctorate, like I do not care so from what I'm gathering is that it was the curiosity that got your attention of all this crime and like probably thinking to yourself why would this person do that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like what's the deal with people's heads? So the reason why I decided on psychology too and like working in institutions and stuff because with the FBI and whatever you're like, most of it's like records and studying. You interview the person like once you know I wanted to be with the criminal like all day. So if I work an institution I'm there like I can ask questions. I can kind of like get why is that?
Speaker 1:that's very interesting. I would have not even that, would have not even popped in my head.
Speaker 2:As opposed to, okay, my job is to interview somebody in an interrogation room or work long term with a mentally all different, stable, individual yeah, I've worked with all different, like I worked with people with developmental disabilities too, um, but like, yeah, like I'm a behavior specialist too. So like I want to be, like I want to see all the behaviors. Like I want to see it all.
Speaker 1:In your humble opinion, do you see? Do you think you've seen a lot of different behaviors?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, yes, Like. One of the reasons I like it too is because I'm going to. I've seen stuff that no one's ever going to see in their life.
Speaker 1:That's probably a good thing for you, for them, not for you.
Speaker 2:It's yeah, yeah, it's just wild. Like some of the stories are just like you can't. You can't make this shit up, like you just can't. So I like to like the element of like you just can't predict this stuff and like. And also I like working with like different kind of you know levels of mental health problems, but like I do like to work with more like anti-social kind of manipulator, sociopath, psychopath types.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm getting this whole background of you. This is amazing. You're in new york delivering pizzas, begging to go to college. It takes you a lot of time. You make it, you're learning, you're hustling, you're grinding, you're volunteering at this time as well well so.
Speaker 2:So when I was going to get my master's, I, yeah, I got a job delivering pizza, working in a deli, working in a bar and I work and I went to school and I worked at like a group home for people with developmental disabilities, like just because I really wanted to like live where I wanted to live and get that.
Speaker 2:So I really like lived my life too, like I've, you know, been around a lot of different people and seen a lot of different like cultures, and you know New York's diverse like crazy, so you just that's awesome, you know um. So you know, when I work with people too, I kind of can bring this different element, because I didn't just go through school and like in my humble opinion, nobody really likes book.
Speaker 2:Smart people um if you're working in a place where you have to connect with people walking around like you know everything, it's not the best way to do your job. Like I, I worked in a group home with all right, I'm sorry a day program for people with developmental disabilities and it was um, you know, like I was like one of two or three white people at my job and you know, a lot of times people come in with their masters and be um, this is a specialist and like the staff would tell me, you know, like, just kind of like you know nose in the air, like I'm the one who runs the show here and I didn't do that. So, like, eventually it kind of warmed up to me, but it's like I can't do my job if I.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like any institution you work in, like a prison, a state hospital you have the people that are dealing with safety and you need them.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:They're 24-7 working with the people. They know when something's wrong and just to walk around and be like well, I know how to make a behavior plan. I'm not going to take your input. It's just not good for anyone, but it's just not the way to be. You're right, it's a collaboration is huge right, and I mean some people just didn't, you know, they just didn't have that happen for them, so it's not their fault. But right, it's just better when you have more life experience.
Speaker 1:So you worked in state hospitals before. What would-hmm. Would that be New York?
Speaker 2:New York and California. Actually I worked for Outpatient in California but institutions like pretty much institutions and like agencies for people with developmental disabilities County. I worked for a county juvenile crisis center for like 5150 kids.
Speaker 1:So we're going to break it all down. I know what developmental disability is, but could you explain to the crowd what developmental disability is?
Speaker 2:So it's a lot of different things, but the basic kind of ones that people know and they there's different terms like intellectual disability, cognitive impairment, um, like a general ones, like people with autism, people with down syndrome, um, you know, people that were born with some kind of brain dysfunction or something and that impairs their ability to kind of process information, and stuff like that what about a brain injury early on in life?
Speaker 2:so that's. That's more like a traumatic brain injury that affected you, so you could have, you could appear to have a developmental disability and it's really like a brain injury.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, I always thought that it was developmental disability because I worked at a prison that was mental health.
Speaker 2:Right. So when you get to adults, do you really know if it's a brain injury or developmental disability? You'll basically put them because it comes to a level of like functioning. So I might have Down syndrome and then you might have someone with a brain injury and it looks similar. But it's two different things.
Speaker 1:Elaborate on what you said when it comes to adults, because it kind of turned on a light bulb in my head, Like does it get to a point where they just get to an age where you just lump them all up as one?
Speaker 2:Well, so you have with adults, you have what? 20 more years of years of like trying you know stuff to tease apart, like so if you have someone who was born with something, then you kind of know that they were born with that. But if you have someone, say in an institution, right, is it drugs, is it brain injury, is it mental illness, is it growing up without an education? Like, like what is. But we lump them together because it's about their functioning level, like can they brush their teeth without someone asking, you know, and that could be due to so many things, again like drugs. So by the time you're an adult, you have all this stuff.
Speaker 1:this conversation just got ju. Okay, so I happen to work for the prison system here in California, right, and there was a bunch of that, what you just said. There's freaking crackheads, drug addicts, motherfuckers there's a whole people pretending to be dumb. Well, you're probably thinking, hector, you can't diagnose people pretending to be dumb. No, I could diagnose people pretending to be fucking dumb, slow people. But I'm finally seeing it now that CDCR does a shit job of lumping everybody in.
Speaker 1:Now is that conducive? Not just that agency that I named, but the correctional setting in all 50 states is should correctional settings do a better job of identifying each individual mental health problem?
Speaker 2:So the problem with that too is like I might work in a facility with like five other psychologists and we all have a different opinion of what's happening wow, okay, so it's all based on our own knowledge.
Speaker 2:So like, say so. For example, I worked somewhere and like there was this violent guy, very violent. He like beat a staff or yeah, yeah, whatever to like a seizure disorder, basically, wow and um, when I came in, I was seeing it from like, because I have a lot of experience with developmental disabilities. I worked with kids with autism, like that was one of my problem and the violence was a result of, like, not understanding things. So like if, if I'm trying to talk and someone doesn't understand me or nobody understands me, I'm going to start to get upset and I'm going to act out. Or if I think people are talking about me because I don't understand what's going on, you know. So I kind of was able to say, hey, you know what? He's not just like this antisocial guy, like he's having trouble communicating, and he was, um, uh, what do you call it? Like educationally neglected or something? Um, where basically, like you know, there's no one making a kid go to school. They're just right like free to do whatever.
Speaker 2:So he was not going to school. He was just kind of like working the streets for money because his parents weren't really taking care of him. So when I was able to kind of step in and say you know, this is cognitive, we have to like take it down a notch the way we speak to him, because he was probably like what are you even saying to me? And then of course he acts out and gets angry. So having that experience changed the perspective and we were able to kind of control the behaviors more because we understood it from a different point of view. But you have to kind of understand that stuff, because we understood it from a different point of view, but you have to kind of understand that stuff. So if you're grouping everyone together.
Speaker 2:You have to know how to. You have to have some experience. You can't just be like oh, that's.
Speaker 1:So if you're the doctor and I'm a CO and you tell me, hey, this guy has cognitive, this guy fucking neglected as a kid, he doesn't when he thinks you're not, he's being understood, he's going to fucking go off on you and I say, okay, do I then, as a correctional officer, attempt to communicate better with him, and will that prevent him from attacking me?
Speaker 2:I would say generally yeah.
Speaker 1:Because think about it.
Speaker 2:If you have not a hundred, not a hundred percent. I mean, it'd also be like a matter of like being consistent, like if you're, you might get punched. The first time.
Speaker 2:But if you get first and the last time, thank you right if you're consistent and you're like you know, I'm trying to understand you, I'm going slow. Like you know, I'm trying to understand you, I'm going slow, like, do you understand what I'm saying? You know, like, repeat it back to me. Eventually they're going to trust you enough and they're going to you. Know, now you can communicate, okay.
Speaker 1:Now I have a theory. Don't mind my theory, don't mind my theory at all, and this is just a scenario. Can't one of those inmates with that disability attack myself or one of my partners and I then for utilize brute and overwhelming force, physical force, to subdue this man per policy and procedure and I hurt him bad in the process? Is he going to learn his lesson, or does that actually agitate the symptoms If it's someone who like severe disability, like severe development.
Speaker 1:Like the one you just mentioned. Like, let's say, he punches me right Boom, and he catches me off guard and I just whoop his ass. Is he gonna be a better person after the ass whooping?
Speaker 2:Is anybody gonna be a better person? Well, is anyone really, though?
Speaker 1:Oh, this is an honest question.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's necessarily the cure for it. Like I think anyone who gets like basically held down and beat is not going to be a good result.
Speaker 1:The way I had always looked at. It is like when the dog pees on the carpet and you rub its nose in it, it is less inclined to pee on the carpet.
Speaker 2:It's a different thought process. It depends on the person, but it's a different process. Thought process it depends on the person, but it's a different process. Like um, first, for instance, someone with a really bad head injury. Yeah, affects this part of your brain. Sometimes it can make people more impulsive. So this area deals with impulsivity. So if I'm punched so many times or whatever, have some severe, severe injury, now I'm more impulsive.
Speaker 1:Is this a hippocampus?
Speaker 2:No, that's like that.
Speaker 1:This is the frontal cortex I was trying to sound smart, don't mind me.
Speaker 2:Stay in your lane.
Speaker 1:Stay in your lane. Is this a hippocampus?
Speaker 2:Nice striatum.
Speaker 1:Dude, if I would have nailed it it I would have fucking sounded so cool. Oh, bro, they're like this motherfucker. So that was my thought process and I'm glad you told me that, because I me personally I had to quit. I couldn't do it anymore yeah no matter which way right? Um, not that I ever did partake in any of that, because I did not for the record, but that was my thought process. My thought process was these guys only understand violence. Is that accurate?
Speaker 2:Like inmates in general.
Speaker 1:Inmates in general.
Speaker 2:I think that a lot of people in institutions have sorry.
Speaker 1:I cry when I laugh.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people in institutions have some pretty bad histories and violence is normal, so the language is violence, right, you know, and like I mean, prison is kind of a crazy place because it's almost like it's almost, in a sense, like the ultimate freedom and it's like swift justice, like if you, if you steal from someone as an inmate, there's swift justice that's swift justice.
Speaker 2:But I want to elaborate on the freedom freedom part so there's no real, especially like say that you're a lifer, what are the consequences really? Like yeah, you're gonna have a hard time, but it's prison and you know that's just the way it is. But it's like like unless you're getting out soon, and like need to follow the rules, it's just kind of like could that be said for me?
Speaker 1:um, being out here in civilian life and being so close to death in the military that I kind of had that ultimate freedom or I kind of feel like, yeah, whatever I think of it in the sense of like when we were talking earlier about like, um violence being like nature.
Speaker 2:Like you know, in nature animals are violent. So to Like in the sense of like.
Speaker 1:To emphasize what you said Human freedom maybe To emphasize what you said is that in the prison system there's ultimate freedom as a result of violence. Is the answer and the language in prison and all this justice is swift.
Speaker 2:I mean, this is a fucked up thought process, right it's the truth. I am. It's pretty much guaranteed that everyone in their lifetime has wondered what it's like to kill somebody. Like wondered.
Speaker 1:It's freaking crazy that you say that. Yeah, hey Warriors, if you haven't already signed up for our all-new website, hectorbravoshowcom, make sure you sign. It's. Yeah, hey Warriors. If you haven't already signed up for our all-new website, hectorbravoshowcom, make sure you sign up at the link below HectorBravoShowcom to watch explicit, uncensored, never-before-seen prison footage. With that love, you Keep pushing forward.
Speaker 2:So you know, prison is a place where that's, like you know, sometimes just kind of the norm.
Speaker 1:Well, there's a diamond dozen. You throw a rock and you hit five of them.
Speaker 2:I mean, like I don't want to say it, like I'm not putting all the eggs in one basket, but like it's. It's kind of like.
Speaker 1:The devil's playground.
Speaker 2:I mean it's. It's such a different world. It's its own world, it's its own government. It's its own government, it's its own. You know, the penal system is like swift. Like you know, if you do something that is like highly disrespectful, then there's going to be consequences. There's no dragging things out and appealing things. And you know, 20 years later and trillion dollars later, you know, from the mind of a psychologist from the mind of a psychologist.
Speaker 1:How do you view that honestly? What do you mean? How do I mean? How do you view that honestly?
Speaker 2:What do you mean? How do I view it?
Speaker 1:How do you view it? Do you view it as just? Do you view it as fair? Do you view it as extreme?
Speaker 2:That happens in prison.
Speaker 1:The language of prison, the environment Necessary. Is it a necessary evil? I think it's necessary. I mean, you can't environment necessary. Is it a necessary evil? I think it's necessary.
Speaker 2:I mean, you can't if, like, say that you know like prison's different everywhere, right, right, so every country has different prisons, right, and I don't know where the most violent prisons are. You know, probably, like you know, el Salvador, or whatever that prison, but, like you know, it's pretty violent in the US, though, and to survive, I mean, you pretty much know, if you get arrested, like, and you're going to jail or prison, you got to like defend yourself.
Speaker 1:Now, if I was a, we'll role play here. If I was a level four inmate, gp killer, inmate Martinez.
Speaker 2:What is level four?
Speaker 1:Level four is max security.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So the worst of the worst, as they say in California. Okay, high security, high security. And I said to you hey, dr Ashley, I'm a level four, I'm in here for murder. I'm a level four, I'm in here for murder. I'm surrounded by a bunch of I'm an active gang member. I would not like to continue this life of violence within these walls. Is there an answer to that?
Speaker 2:I mean, like in the American prison system. You would have to work that much harder if you're in that train of thought. Right, if I want to change myself as an inmate in prison and make my life better, you know I'm not an inmate, but I'm going to have to use a lot of my own power and my own brain to decide that I want to do that. And in such a terrible environment where you're constantly like I mean, especially if you're in a gang like some people, just don't have a choice.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, and you have to have like a strong will, I imagine, to really change, because we're in, like the South and wherever, where they're quite literally just like stripping inmates down and like dousing them with, like you know, a hose, like treat them like animals, like do you expect society to get any better when you're treating them like that? And when you treat people like dogs, they're going to start acting like dogs I do agree with that.
Speaker 1:I do agree with that. Gonna start acting like dogs, I I do agree with that. I I do agree with that. But I also agree with, uh, like a happy median mean not going too far this way or not totally I mean you have to have, like, I think you definitely need the security, you need everyone working together.
Speaker 2:But you, you, you know, in institutions the mission is to keep the community safe, right.
Speaker 1:Allegedly, but yes. On paper Correct.
Speaker 2:So that's the goal right To keep the community safe. That doesn't mean keep the inmates in, that means keep the community safe. So, yes, keeping them in as part of that right Happy medium. Keeping them in as part of that right happy medium. Keeping them in as part of that. However, especially with all these laws changing, they're letting people out. Do you want to be nice to someone and like they might be in your neighborhood one day and you can walk by them like oh hey, dr ashley, like you know what's going on? Or do you want to be scared because that dude just got out and you treated him like crap and now it's going to be a menace?
Speaker 1:we're. We are gonna unpack this monster that you just brought to the table, because I remember everything you've said thus far. Right, would it matter how you treated anybody if some of them had those serial serious issues like serial killer, brain mentality or psychotic, because whether you're nice or whether you're mean, they would still want to probably take your life.
Speaker 2:You know, you never know what's his name.
Speaker 1:Richard Ramirez. I'm sure Richard Ramirez's victims were never mean to him.
Speaker 2:Oh no, and there were a lot of stranger victims, correct.
Speaker 1:So I heard what you said about hey, treat people nice so they don't come out and kill you. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I worked in this place where I had this special group of inmates and it was the same group of inmates all the time. So one of the points of the group is four hours a week. One of the points was like to build a little bit of trust, as much as you can.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:You know, and they actually told me that they would sometimes be like on the yard talking about like which staff they would, you know, defend and which ones they just wouldn't.
Speaker 2:And one of the reasons for that is you know defend and which ones they just wouldn't. And one of the reasons for that is you know, even if an inmate helps you, like, say, someone's beating you up and they help you, you they get written up for that. So there's like this different dynamic. But they would literally say like the people who treat us like crap, like we don't good, I'm glad you said that and I agree.
Speaker 1:How much percentage of the population, could you guesstimate, are incarcerated? That are, I would say, beyond hope, that there's nothing you can say or do to fix or reason I don't really believe anyone's beyond it except me I was just about to say, except maybe some like serial, like psychopaths, you really can't do much with them but what? What's the percentage of psychopaths, would you say? In general, population is very small, it's very small, very small.
Speaker 2:It then it only seems big to us because it's publicized well so like yeah, psychopaths kind of thrown around in an improper way it is like, oh, my ex-chick is a fucking psychopath.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so so the majority of the population in prison has um anti-social personality disorder, which part of that is sometimes, a lot of times kind of not like being cold, like to be a gang member. You have to kind of be cold, right, you can't have empathy to carry out orders or whatever you got to do, you know um, and so we interpret that as like a psychopath. But it's not necessarily the case. So the population of actual psychopaths is very small. It's the serial killers, it's the Ed Kempers and the you know Charles Mansons and the.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about that part from your point of view. Because I, from my experience, I have seen what you're saying, gang members, that just you know, because the human brain doesn't stop developing. What do they say until 26?
Speaker 2:25, 26. 25, 26.
Speaker 1:They join gangs at 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 years old, so pretty much they're indoctrinated ideology. This is what they're learning, developing. I don't even know where I was going with that, but pretty much that I've come to see that a lot of inmates that's what they experienced. Right, they weren't necessarily hey, you're a bad fucking human being forever. You should be written off and cast away. Because I have seen hope where they've recovered from that mindset. What's your take on that?
Speaker 2:I mean one of the problems is that we just don't have enough services. There's staffing crises in institutions. There's not enough staff. People are getting underpaid. They're getting abused. You know you work in like a prison or an institution. You're getting spit at, you're getting. You know whatever unknown substance is thrown at you. You're getting cursed out, you're getting hit. You're getting you know and you're gonna have an environment where, especially if you have a trickle down from higher ups of like not caring, then you're going to have a bad environment for people to get better. If you're treating like right, if you treat your staff well, it trickles down and they treat the patients or the clients or whoever better. But when you have people higher up, you know not recognizing like even just thank you.
Speaker 2:You know like for risking your life today, culture, culture you know the culture of it, so it's just not conducive to change Like. If we actually spent the amount, it would be cheaper to have. You know and this is just my, I didn't read articles recently but if they spent money on service, community services, like you know, sports, ymcas and you know sports and whatever for poor communities, they'd be spending less money on that than they do on the prison system 100%.
Speaker 2:Illegal fees. I mean you got people on death row. It's like millions of dollars. Like you're doing appeals, you're having all this money dumped into, and for what?
Speaker 1:Every time I bring up a topic with you, it just opens up another Pandora's box. Reason being is because now I'm saying- we need a whole season. Because, well now, what I'm getting to is when you said, hey, all we have to do is target the youth, invest in the youth and it will prevent this. But haven't you come to realize, or have you realized, that this is all a money-making scheme at the expense of people?
Speaker 2:Oh, completely. I mean, one of the reasons why I like what I do is because I know the system's messed up Facts and I kind of use the like. You know, if I can just make one patient laugh, you know I did my job like in my life, but like that's.
Speaker 2:you know it's a hard system to work in because you know you have to develop dark humor to like survive. But like that's one of the reasons because I always wanted to work with. I got to a certain point where I wanted to work with the people that nobody cared about.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking, if they put me and you in charge of something, I'm pretty sure we would have run it effectively. I think, so and get positive results.
Speaker 2:I think so, yes, yes, yeah, and it's just sad. I mean, you know, it's not that hard to be nice.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you, and then just fake it just fake it does. Does group punishment have, um have an impact on the mindset of an inmate? Meaning, if I'm a mexican and I get involved in an incident, I all mexicans go on lockdown. If I'm a black and I assault a staff, all blacks go on lockdown. Does that have an effect on the inmate psyche as a whole?
Speaker 2:group punishment I mean, I mean it could, because it's almost like, damned if I do, damned if I don't, like I might get in trouble anyways. So I might as well get in trouble, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:That's what I used to tell my ex-wife all the time. I was always in the doghouse for nothing, right? So I figured like okay.
Speaker 2:Well, it's kind of like think the similar thing, like if you're gonna hold us all responsible and fuck it, I might as well make it worth it. I laugh because I no longer work there and I agree and I mean I'd be having a field day if I was an inmate and I'm not even knocking them right, because they recently put all prisons on California on lockdown and even the ones that were not partaking in the bullshit.
Speaker 1:There was an increase in all kinds of violence, but they that's going to lower violence for everyone on lockdown. Yeah, the individuals that they locked down were general population inmates as opposed to sensitive needs yards inmates, and I'm like wow, dude.
Speaker 2:So what does lockdown entail?
Speaker 1:I mean, you ain't fucking leaving your cell.
Speaker 2:So can you get like visitors, like no, is it all visitors? They slammed visits too, so I'm like you know what this is gonna like see, this is the opposite of what, because once you let those guys out, what's gonna happen? This? Is me right, it's like crazy yeah, so crazy, crazy, I would, I would, I'd be banging on those doors, man I'm uh, I, I.
Speaker 1:I'm really in a conundrum, but I'm glad you're here to paint the picture and show your perspective, that you see the exact same thing from your point of view yeah, well, I mean, you know who suffers? Who suffers COs, free staff, the families who suffers as a result of all this mayhem?
Speaker 2:You can pretty much say everybody, except for the people who don't care, people that you know, the people who don't care.
Speaker 1:The people who don't care. We're looking at you. What?
Speaker 2:affects everyone Because if you think about it, like okay, we treat and so inmate like crap, he's miserable, he's angry, he's angry at society. You know, he's got a kid out there. Kid follows in his footsteps. I mean it's just such a trickle down, it affects everybody. It affects everybody. Any violence that's happening is is a result of you know, whatever trickle down. For the most part, I mean, you know jeffrey dahmer's doing his thing, but narcotics drugs.
Speaker 1:You mentioned that in the beginning of this episode. That oftentimes contributes to psyche, mental health issues. What are some of the effects that drugs can have on the brain?
Speaker 2:long-term effects uh, well, let's see then.
Speaker 1:You know, they all have different effects well, like like the good the good drugs meth heroin, fentanyl yeah, they basically can like mess up your cognitive abilities.
Speaker 2:Um, some people get psychotic. Like you know, you might have a bad trip on something and now you're having hallucinations or something. Um, or, like you know, people do math. They're like super paranoid. Um it can you know. Some people get like permanently brain damage from substances. I mean, you know, alcohol is really bad.
Speaker 1:You can die.
Speaker 2:You can end up with seizures because of alcohol withdrawal. That's another point. I mean I've had patients and stuff that died like three, four times from ODing. How messed up must your brain be when it actually died pretty much Right, multiple times? So it depends on what your use was, what you were using. Wow, how much Right and multiple times. So it depends on, like, what your use was, what you were using, how much you used, I mean substances are crazy now, because they go weird stuff on them.
Speaker 1:You mentioned you were a forensic something a behavioral health specialist but you also have knowledge in substance abuse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my I basically specialize in like trauma yeah um, and I would say in a sense kind of like with this. Developmental disability is kind of one of my things too, and just behavior, but a lot of it's trauma. So along with that comes like substance self-medication brain injuries and yeah.
Speaker 1:Earlier, I asked you the percentage of true psychopaths and serial killers, and it was very, very, very small. How about substance-addicted people? Percentage like in the population?
Speaker 2:Yeah, A lot.
Speaker 1:What about like within prison?
Speaker 2:In prison a large population. I mean if prison, in prison, um a large population. I mean if they didn't, if they're not doing now, they probably had some. I mean I've met even like patients. You know I'm going between like patients and state hospital and prison. But like I had a kid, I had a kid.
Speaker 2:I worked with his parents, gave him acid when he was five, like you know meth's on the table when they're like seven and that's what mom does when she's upset. So you know, I'm just picking it up off the you know, a lot of people in lower income areas. Drugs are just more rampant.
Speaker 1:So I know you're not a cure-all fix all person that can wave a magic wand right. But I try to ask questions for staff where the viewers can watch and gain an understanding of maybe why they operate or think the way they do. What if I was inmate? Inmate Martinez came up to you and I said hey, I grew up in this household that was fucking meth on the table. My pops was always slamming heroin in the bathroom. I'm addicted to heroin. I want to kick it. I need to kick it. Like. What kind of advice or professional would you say to a person like that to guide them away from utilizing dope?
Speaker 2:um, well, you know, when it comes to some things like with you know know, heroin, like you got the whole meth, methadone, Suboxone thing, and so that's always something that you're always like, you know, is this something we should explore, like getting methadone? And then you know it's different stages of when people are ready to quit things. So, like you know, it's kind of like investigating, like why do you want to quit, Like what are the pros and cons? And you know, just helping someone contemplate, because sometimes people just aren't ready. Or you know, I mean, yeah, I, I give people in institutions a lot of credit because I don't, I don't know, I mean there's so many reasons to do drugs in an institution. I guess so many reasons.
Speaker 1:I understand what you're saying. It does boil down to willingness. I got 14 years of sobriety from alcohol coming up on 15. Thanks, so it does. But I guess what I was hoping like maybe to give hope to other people that hey, you're not the only one out with this experience.
Speaker 2:There's other people that have experienced the same thing you have, yeah see, so I guess I'm going to do a little ad here for this. Uh, there's this um program called the um compassion prison project okay have you heard about?
Speaker 2:never, it goes to different california prisons, um, and this woman leads it. Basically Her name's Fritzy, I don't remember her last name. I met her once, but she does like a it's called ACEs Adverse Childhood Experiences that kind of like. You know, either parents curse at you or you beat or you know whatever. And she does this circle and there's a video it's called step inside the circle and it's at this one prison and there's like 200 dudes like in a circle and she reads them off like one by one.
Speaker 2:Like you know, take a step forward If you were ever called names. You know, rolling up. Take a step forward If you ever hit you know for being bad or whatever the case may be. And they keep getting closer and closer and, as they're realizing they are not alone, like the videos are showing them, like having group talks about how like they think they're alone. And you know, I thought I was the only one who went through this. And now I know, like 90% of these people, because you know, there's a certain toughness of like you're not going to talk about.
Speaker 2:You're not going to talk about all your traumas especially in men, primarily in men yeah, and that's one thing too that you know sometimes we do in mental health and like prison we're like you know feelings and cry and blah, blah. And then we're like, yeah, you should have all these coping skills and blah, blah. And then we're like, yeah, you should have all these coping skills and keep continuing doing them on the yard. You can't cry on the yard, you can't. You know you're not going to be in a single cell, probably you can't do all that stuff. It's not conducive to the whole environment, so some of that stuff gets like it works there.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And you know, know a lot of people doing substances. That's how they learned how to cope to begin with, so how we have to give them a tool instead of it. But a lot of times we just take away the substance, and what are you supposed to do with nothing?
Speaker 1:it's so deep, it's wild. Man, that was when you were telling me that I was getting like kind of chill. It's very impactful and I totally understand people's experiences. Like man, I've met a lot of people in life and a lot of people have had fucked up lives.
Speaker 2:Well, and you know I could go all over. You know people I've worked with, especially in prisons, are some of the realest people I've ever met Because they've seen so much, and a lot of times too, they can read people because of survival right I need to read my environment so they know what's going on.
Speaker 2:And a lot of times people who don't understand that kind of dismiss oh, like they don't really know what they're talking about and you know, kind of dismiss that. But just a realist, I mean you can't really meet too many like fake, like you know people in those situations, because I mean you can obviously. But for the most part people that have a lot of trauma are kind of like real, very real.
Speaker 1:People that have a lot of trauma are real. Why is that?
Speaker 2:They've seen more of life. Like you know, if I live in a bubble my whole life, like how can I be real? Really, because I don't understand life. I mean, a lot of people are thrown adult situations when they were like very little and see the world on higher levels than someone who's just kind of like. Ignorance is bliss, which is fine too.
Speaker 1:A young combat veteran that goes to war at the age of 18, 19 and sees atrocities and participates in atrocities and comes back home. Is his experience real, as opposed to the next person that never experienced that?
Speaker 2:No, I think it's more of like real, in the sense of like you have now a bigger view of the world and how things work, so I can understand the world better, even if it was bad, because I'm seeing these bigger things. I'm seeing how people interact. I'm seeing what is important to people. You know power violence, whatever the case may be. You're seeing how people are and if you're not getting, you know I don't wish trauma on anybody, but You're seeing things from perspectives that really you're not supposed to, especially at a young age. But you're going to view situations in a totally different way than someone who's never experienced that.
Speaker 1:Is ignorant bliss. Is there a perk to be completely naive and ignorant? I think there's or will you hit a wall at some point in your life and reality will smack you?
Speaker 2:I mean I think people go through life like and reality will smack you. I mean I think people go through life like ignorances, but I mean I think it must be a great way to be. Yeah, no for sure, I would love to not know what the hell is going on.
Speaker 1:No shit I don't even want to be doing, I've never even watched that no, yeah, if I had a choice not to do this podcast or to do this podcast, it's like one of my friends a long time ago, it's like a blessing and a curse.
Speaker 2:It's a blessing because you can see the world, but it's a curse because you can see the world.
Speaker 1:That's so funny because I look at my seven-year-old daughter and I'm like, oh, she's so innocent and I preserve that. That's so funny because I look at my seven-year-old daughter and I'm like, oh, she's so innocent, you know, and I preserve that and I try to protect that and I'm like God, I wish she could just hang on to that forever.
Speaker 2:It was just, it's just. Yeah, I was at the beach with my friend recently and there's this little girl and she was just like.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know, she must have been like four or something, and she was just like blonde hair like she started doing like snow angels in the sand and she's like she dragged her chair up to the top of the um lifeguard pile of sand and like she, you know she'd like look at us and then we look at her and she's like like run away and she just popped her chair down and like just in the sun was chilling and I was like to be her right now must be just heaven. And she was soaking it in, Like I was like she's beyond her years, because she was just like she had her sunglasses on like wow, and it was just, I would love to live.
Speaker 2:I would love to live in that moment if I were you know moment as her, for like ever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I believe once the veil has been lifted, there's no one seeing it. Once you've seen it, you can't unsee it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I mean think about like if you were abused really badly in your home. You've seen some shit, right? Yeah badly in your home. You've seen some shit, right, yeah. And then you go to school and sally's complaining about like she got the wrong color shoes for her birthday. You know you're as that other child, you're gonna be seeing the world in a different way. Like, well, at least you have shoes right you know like at least you can choose a color.
Speaker 1:What is there to say about the mindset for people that have not experienced certain experiences or trauma but yet try to insert their opinion on the people that have Meaning? I personally came out three years ago and exposed my former employer. But there's other individuals saying, like man, that guy doesn't know what he's talking about. What that guy's saying is not true. I know for a fact. They have not experienced what I have experienced.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But does that say anything? Or are both people wrong?
Speaker 2:I mean.
Speaker 1:I think that's Are both people right.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's all about perspective, right, Whatever your perspective is, that's fine. I mean everyone puts up blinders to some information. You know, yeah, um, there's different reasons for that people. Maybe it's a defense mechanism yeah, I can't hear this. None of this is real yeah, it could be like defensive, like I'm gonna keep pretend like to maintain my job and to maintain my life.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna just act like this is like not, it's true it's like that meme where the dog's on fire in the bar and he's like this is fine I'm fine, it's fine everything's fine.
Speaker 2:Um, I think that I mean for me that's just kind of like close-minded well, now we're gonna turn, we're gonna change gears a little bit we're gonna change gears a little bit.
Speaker 1:We're going to change gears a little bit. I want you to talk about the effects of mental health. Being in an environment as a staff member, let's say in an institution, when everything is just burning down around you, what kind of effect would that have on your mental health?
Speaker 2:So like burning down, like in what way?
Speaker 1:um vindictive bosses. Uh violations of policy, unfair, unsafe practices.
Speaker 2:I mean you have to have a supportive environment. I mean morale is everything. If you, you know I can't. I mean, you know, in institutions you have potlucks, right, everybody loves a potluck you know that keeps morale up, like when you have parties and you're like with you know, and just saying thank you could change someone's whole entire day.
Speaker 2:Like right you know, someone appreciates me, you know, and there's going to be less abuse going on if you're. And there's going to be less abuse going on if you're treated well. You're going to treat other people well and the morale is what's needed. It's thankless jobs that people don't give anyone credit for. I mean as an officer you don't know if you're coming home tonight, and that's not. It's just like you're just another body and like if something happens to you, we really care less. We're just going to replace you. Like that's institutions but what about?
Speaker 1:could? We talked about violent individuals performing violent acts? What about staff members that are exposed to violence on a continuous basis?
Speaker 2:Well, there's higher rates of domestic violence, say, in correctional jobs. You know there's like higher rates of substance use in correctional, higher rates of suicide in correctional officers, correctional staff. You know I think correctional staff and correctional officers specifically have the most problems essentially, like with domestic violence, suicide, substance use. You know that's suicides high, and like police officers too. But like I think corrections specifically is I mean you're in your working long shifts, right, you're there your whole life basically you're seeing violence.
Speaker 2:You're not getting treated well, it's just gonna. It's just a snowball of not good you know, not nothing good. I mean, you're living in this terrible situation.
Speaker 1:You're constantly being traumatized, to the point where it's just normal you're constantly being traumatized, to the point where it's normal, I mean think about, like, how many times have inmates seen people murdered after a certain point?
Speaker 2:It's like I mean, if you're a gang member and you're living on the streets as a kid, like how many times you got to see someone get murdered before it doesn't affect you anymore?
Speaker 1:That is not a good place to be. It is not a good place to be to see witness murders and did not affect you, or dead bodies and did not affect you, whether it be by suicide or by overdose I mean how many like stories you hear from like people in institutions, hospital or anything where it's like violence is a regular, like it's just like matter of fact stories.
Speaker 1:So if, if we cut out all the bullshit right and you are the mental health professional and I gave you $1 trillion and a magic wand, you know where. You're not trying to gain anything from anyone or sell any type of fucking dog and pony show what would be the accurate treatment or beneficial treatment to help officers in this manner.
Speaker 2:Well, just having support too. I mean it's recognizing the problems and doing something about it. The problem is it's like recognized, there's nothing being done about. Like, for instance, like, okay, something happens at prison, right, and you have to write a report, right. And then two, then two months later I'm like hey, you know, officer, tell me what happened. You know da-da-da-da-da, how well can you really remember what happened? Not much, okay. Do you know? Poor memory is a result of PTSD. Sleep loss is a result of PTSD sleep loss. So, really, you're being traumatized all the time, which impairs your memory. You're working overtime all the time, which impairs your memory, and then you're constantly being held accountable for your memory.
Speaker 1:Which is why I quit my job and quit my marriage. Honestly, it was fucking over wet over, it was overbearing, it was fucking like crippling, crippling to me.
Speaker 2:Well, that's yeah. So I'm very close to someone who has trauma from war and working in the prison yeah and you know I'll tell them stories 500 times like I don't care, I'm like remember that and I'm like you don't remember, I'm just gonna tell it again.
Speaker 1:It's almost like fun for me to just tell the story again, but like I am aware that he doesn't remember and I don't get mad at him for that so I mean, I don't want to try to throw nobody under the bus, but what if somebody's like oh, you have selective memory, you have selective memory, you only want to just hand them a sheet of criteria for trauma and sleep loss.
Speaker 2:Poor memory, okay. Depression, no, this is this is good.
Speaker 1:This is good. Um, at what point should a human identify what type of extreme environment they're in the effect it's having on their mental health, and then, thirdly, make a decision to either leave or stay in that environment?
Speaker 2:So I work with some people right now that works in prisons and I think that you in institutions in general, I think you don't notice it's that bad until it's that bad. And then what I've noticed is people looking back and being like why didn't I do anything about that? Why did I not notice then? And you know, I'm thinking about someone specifically like really struggling with, like I was seeing this stuff for years and I didn't. And it's just kind of like well, that's just what you were told to do. You came to work, you did your job, there wasn't time to think about that. And then it starts setting in when it's getting really bad, and then you know you kind of have to make a decision to save yourself and your mental health that and it's a gradual.
Speaker 1:You know, it's kind of like when you get in a relationship with an abusive person they don't fucking beat your ass on the first date, right? They manipulate you and they manipulate you and then they eventually reel you in where you're out. That's how me, being an employee for for the last prison system that I worked for, was like yeah it wasn't initial. You don't see the bullshit initially well, right, and you don't.
Speaker 2:The more you do it, the more you get it. So there's also going to be a level of that and there's, I'm sure there's a level of like I need this job, it it's a good job and I make money.
Speaker 2:So I'm just going to, you know worry about this crap, um, but then you, you know the people who get burned out are the ones who really want to do the right thing, or like they care a lot about other people and they don't like to see other people being abused, like inmates or patients or staff, whatever. I think it just gets to like a breaking point for someone and, you know, institution or like anywhere like that. You have to decide like is my mental, like is this really worth it?
Speaker 1:So is the act of suicide a result of the ultimate end of the mental health process failing like what do you mean elaborate? Okay, hey, I'm, my name is hector. Bravo. I work in a prison. I've seen a lot of trauma. I'm suffering, I'm suffering. My bosses are assholes. I'm suffering, I'm suffering. I am now committing the act of suicide. Does that mean that, like all else, everything else failed up until that point? Because that's the fucking final straw. There's no coming back from that it's not necessarily.
Speaker 2:I mean I'm sure, yeah, there's situations, for sure, there's failures in the system or failures and whatever you know yeah, because I don't believe that's somebody's go-to.
Speaker 1:I don't believe that somebody's go-to no, nobody wants to.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna get like dbt like one of my therapies, like everybody wants to do the best they can.
Speaker 2:Everybody wants to be happy like like even someone on the street like you know, methed out or you know fucked up, yeah still wants a better life. It's just they're doing the best with what they have. They don't. You know, you can't. Some people just can't. They seem like they're doing bad to themselves and making a choice. But everybody wants a better life. But I think it also depends on like you. We all have different levels of being able to actually cope with stuff in general.
Speaker 1:Okay, there's this topic of suicide is like taboo.
Speaker 2:Resilience, resilience, yeah.
Speaker 1:Resiliency.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you're saying that resiliency plays a role in suicide attempts or suicide acts?
Speaker 2:it's. It decreases the chances if you're more resilient to things some people are more vulnerable to. I mean it depends. It depends on. So what if I'm a?
Speaker 1:resilient man. Okay, I'm a resilient guy. I went to war yeah I came back. I'm resilient. I joined cdcr. It was fucking out of control. I quit.
Speaker 2:I'm resilient I think it's just mental pain. It just comes down to how much mental pain can you actually handle, like how much can you take, like. So one of the reasons I went into psychology was because the kid brought a gun to school, right, and I know why he brought a gun to school, why he was getting made fun of regularly and you know kind of a typical situation Like he was just getting bullied a lot. And so my question was like how much pain must you be inside to decide you're going to just kill a bunch of people and then kill yourself? Like how much pain to make that decision? Now I'm not saying like you know any excuse for that, but like the physical pain, that emotional stuff, you know. I think that's where the breaking point is that I physically can't take this anymore.
Speaker 1:At one point in time within the California Department of Corrections, all prison gang organization leaders were housed away in security housing units From the Mexican Mafia, nuestra Familia, black Guerrilla Family and the Aryan Brotherhood Does, sitting in isolation for 30 years 3-0, cause mental pain and mental anguish.
Speaker 2:I would say in the majority. Yeah, I mean, I think there is people that can survive like that and they're fine with it. But I mean that's how prison started, by like putting hoods over their heads and not letting them talk to each other. And you know, like the Eastern State Penitentiary in Philadelphia, that's how it was set up, like in the beginning, Like I think that's where penitentiaries came from. It was like a spider, it was like a circle in the middle and any time they came out of their cell they put a hood over their head. They couldn't talk, they had their own little yard. I mean, even I don't know, I watch a lot of prison. History shows and they found over time that that actually makes things a lot worse. People go crazy. People go crazy. They get psychotic just from being isolated. Is that by design, To make people psychotic?
Speaker 1:Yes. Is that by design, by the brains up at the top of the organizations or behind the scenes?
Speaker 2:It wasn't originally.
Speaker 1:It was not originally.
Speaker 2:No, I do believe that originally there was a desire to rehab.
Speaker 1:Good intent.
Speaker 2:Like good intent.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:The history shows I've seen about prisons that was the intent is. Like reform and like that's what they thought would make people better. Like reform and like that's what they thought would make people better and their beliefs back then were not necessary. Yeah, granted, there was definitely places where they just wanted to prison people, but now it seems now it's a business punishment.
Speaker 1:No, it's a punishment, but it's a business.
Speaker 2:It's a money making different there's different motives, especially like the private jails and stuff they'll charge inmates for like sandals and sheets and toilet paper.
Speaker 1:You're not for getting charged sandals, sheets and toilet paper if you're an inmate.
Speaker 2:I think they should have like basic stuff.
Speaker 1:What about Sheriff Joe Arpario from Arizona?
Speaker 2:Pink underwear guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What's your thoughts on that? Whole tactic back in the day.
Speaker 2:Okay, I would love to sit that guy down and I'm sure he's been sat down many times and be like why pink? What is the theory behind that?
Speaker 1:Well, it was embarrassment, right, Allegedly Okay.
Speaker 2:So did he do some research on how embarrassment puts people back in line?
Speaker 1:I'm fucking glad I have you here today. Does he do research on like if I? Embarrass these motherfuckers, they're going to no the more that I talk to you, the more I'm starting to realize that people just do dumb ideas without thinking things through.
Speaker 2:No, like where'd you find the research?
Speaker 1:And convince other people to follow along with their bullshit Reminds me of Nazi Germany. Let me ask you about Nazi Germany.
Speaker 2:Not for nothing, but, bro, you're like a sheriff. Like when did you learn about how to reform inmates? And who told you that pink underwear was going to be the cure?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but then you have old school guys. That's some weird ass shit. Man, that's like perverse too.
Speaker 2:Like you're a dude with a bunch of stained a bunch of dudes. Underwear pink, that's what you have.
Speaker 1:Old school prison guards are like hell yeah, embarrass them, that's what they need. Fucking embarrass them. And that's still part of the same mindset.
Speaker 2:I think there's a degree of embarrassment, yeah, like, for instance I don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure part of sex offender treatment. There is treatments that are essentially like embarrass them. But I can't speak to that fully because I don't. But I mean, you know, like if you're walking down the tier and you know, as a female or whatever they do to dudes obviously too, but um, and you get yourself, you know someone exposes you. If you're like, laugh at them, say or like yeah I know people have been like I can't see um.
Speaker 2:That's not. That's gonna register in a sense it is gonna register sometimes so if I'm oh go ahead. But that's like a deeper thing than like oh, I'm gonna make you prance around pink underwear right, get the hell out of here.
Speaker 1:So from the mindset perspective, how I mean, you don't kind of have to.
Speaker 2:If that worked, why don't we just have pink underwear in every place?
Speaker 1:Well, I don't think it's so much to work. I mean, I thought it was more to send a message as opposed to working, or what doesn't send a message?
Speaker 2:I mean it doesn't send a message that you're putting them out in tents. I don't know. You know what I?
Speaker 1:mean Maybe a deterrent, maybe a deterring factor, Right.
Speaker 2:but again, where's the research? Who told you that pink underwear, embarrassment was going to save all the inmates from being violent or whatever, never coming back? I mean I guess you know I guarantee there was definitely people that were like I'm not coming back here wearing pink. I mean, I'm sure it did to a degree, but well, it was also that they were living in tents outside, like you know, in terrible conditions that would. That was what really turned people off, like I'm not coming back here. It's not because of pink underwear, it's because we got no showers. We're outside in the desert.
Speaker 1:I hear, hear you, I hear you, it was pink underwear, though. It's funny, I mean because you mentioned living in tents, no showers. In the military you do that as well all day long. But I do understand the differences between prison, military circumstances.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, I'm sure at times you're like I'll never fucking come back here again. Life is fucking tense man. I'm not with it. I want to shower.
Speaker 1:So again, this question is going to be kind of like intense. Hopefully you can break it down. Okay, nazi Germany right. I don't know your education or knowledge on the whole situation, but how does that happen? Right, a man by the name of Hitler. He's like the one guy at the top of the hierarchy. He has his SS soldiers, then he convinces the rest of the Nazis, and then the rest of the, it's a gang mentality.
Speaker 2:You know about the Stanford Prison Project.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm Group think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like a gang mentality.
Speaker 1:So that had an impact. It's a Go along to get along it's a cult like thing, you know.
Speaker 2:It's like, uh, what? There's some other, I don't know, maybe it's a joke or something. Basically like there's like five monkeys and there's like a banana or something, and every time someone goes up and touches a banana, you know, a bucket of water falls down, or something.
Speaker 2:It's totally not what it was, but yeah. So then they start switching out, like putting a new monkey or whatever in, and they would get like water, you know, like they would go for the banana and the water would dump. So eventually they started to learn not to go up that ladder, but they didn't know why.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So they were getting to a point where they didn't really know why this was happening. They just knew not to do it. So sometimes it just turns into things because, whatever you know, you might be getting punished in some sense, or you know when you're getting threatened into behavior. I mean, you know, like they just didn't want to get their ass beat anymore, so they're not going to walk up that ladder and see what's up there, because they don't know they're going to get their ass beat or there's water going to fart on them. You know, they don't know why.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter anymore right I don't know that stuff's complicated, though, because that's like it's really not though it's. It's like brain, it's humans it's kind of like charles manson type thing on a smaller scale you know, I've been watching charles manson's videos on youtube and although he's a good singer huh it's a good singer although he is crazy, he's also smart oh yeah can you elaborate on crazy people that are smart?
Speaker 1:is that a thing?
Speaker 2:well, what do you mean?
Speaker 1:I mean that's I mean, it were people like who did they say Einstein? That dude was dumb, but actually a fucking genius. No, he wasn't dumb, so apparently he had autism they say Not that I call people with autism dumb. I have to be. I thought this dude was like you can say whatever you want. No, that's not. I want to make a clarification no, yeah, so there's.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It just depends on, like, what's part of the like perspective you're. I mean, you might be seeing things that other people don't. I don't know, I always am like kind of like someone who's psychotic or something. Maybe they're just seeing a different perspective of life. I don't know. You know, sometimes I think, like we don't really know what's going on. Like I don't know, I have a patient who thought he was Satan.
Speaker 2:Like I don't know, maybe you are like, who am I to say you know that you're wrong, cause nobody's crazy until you tell them they're crazy.
Speaker 1:You know it's, you know what's we know. What is crazy is like I kind of been holding off the whole schizophrenia topic and stuff like that. I'm kind of just holding you know, keeping topics in my back pocket. I don't want to go there yet. I want to still talk about staff members and mental health ashley and hector, season eight.
Speaker 2:Oh man, we can do something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll spice up this background right here. Um, what coping skills can one use? I mean, if you're a co and you're going through it, right, I guess. In a nutshell, I'm trying to prevent fucking more co's from offing themselves. Realistically, what coping skills can they do? Or what option do they have to do prior to making that decision?
Speaker 2:well. So what would be wonderful is if officers had time to do anything and there was like groups of you know vent about it. You know like group support groups, you know. But the problem is that, especially well, in like you know, medical staff too, they're like mandated all the time too, you don't even have time to do anything to help you feel better.
Speaker 2:You know you're, especially if you have a family. I can't even imagine like you're driving an hour to work, driving an hour back, that's two hours. Yep, you're working 16 hours, that's 18 hours because, that leaves six hours left to sleep and spend time with your family that's not gonna happen but you're also making a lot of money.
Speaker 2:So it's like I mean, depending on where you're working, um, but so it's like, well, you're supporting your family, you got to support your family. How are you supposed to have time to even do anything for your mental health, unless it was like at work, you know, happening at work, which is why you have to have kind of good morale, because that's mental health.
Speaker 1:Oh dang, when you put it that way, that's a lot, that's heavy. And then you add the home problems. You've got the wife sleeping with Tyrone. You've got the wife sleeping with Tyrone.
Speaker 2:What shift do you work?
Speaker 1:Kids on drugs.
Speaker 2:If you work the, you know first watch, like when you get home and your wife's going to work and you know you have to sleep and feed the kid, and then next thing you know you got to go back because it's like six hours later and like you know like the amount of I mean. You know you got to eat lunch on your shift Like you're not even like or eating coolers that people have.
Speaker 1:It's not enough time, now that we're on this conversation and you're the professional, is the job of correctional officer made for just anyone and anybody?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no. I mean you know that. Come on, you know that the job of anyone working in an institution isn't like. You know there's plenty of regular staff, like people in my field too, that like are made for it, you know. Well, that's the other thing too. It's how you handle it right. Like I've seen people get very upset for being called names by clients and stuff, and it's like like that's if you're going to get your panties in a bunch every time someone calls you an asshole, like you're going to have a hard time. You know what I mean. Like you're going to have a real hard time, but like you know, I would just be like you know you're entitled to your own opinion. Have a nice day, you know. So it's also like Tough skin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like dark humor.
Speaker 1:So let's go over basic qualities that would benefit a person entering the field of corrections Tough skin.
Speaker 2:Being able to have dark humor. I tell that to my. I teach too and I supervise students and I always you know if you're going to work in corrections or state hospitals where there's suicide and violence, and you know especially if suicide is like a whole nother thing you know like especially in other institutions like state hospital and stuff.
Speaker 2:But like you have to be able to say stuff that you can't say in the community, that's for sure. Like if I said some of the stuff outside but we can understand it. You know we can joke about things that you're not supposed to joke about. Because if you take that all in, like if I took in every suicide and everyone who want to kill themselves and everybody's story about how you know the terrible abuse in childhood they had, then I would not last very long.
Speaker 2:Makes sense you can't take that all in. That's too much. You know, it's like vicarious trauma and then you're being traumatized, especially as officers.
Speaker 1:Is that a thing? Vicarious trauma.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That is a thing, yeah. What are some examples?
Speaker 2:So, you know, in working with pretty much everyone I work with has trauma, I'm hearing hundreds of people's trauma, you know, like, so I'm getting traumatized by other people's trauma. So, like you know, if, like there's been a couple of stories that have sat with me but like if you are like locked in a closet, like naked and like being beat and you know the dogs led into the closet and you're getting abused, and like it's just I don't even know where I'm going with that, but it's like that happened to somebody and you carry it home.
Speaker 2:Okay, so vicarious trauma. Yeah, sorry, I was lost, Fuck you were fucking reliving.
Speaker 1:You were having a flashback of a trauma that never happened to you.
Speaker 2:That stuck in my head.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And when I get specifically traumatized.
Speaker 1:Dude, we got that shit on camera. I'm a fucking nut.
Speaker 2:I was wondering where the hell you were going, but you're back actually. So yeah, like, and I know when I get specifically traumatized because I drive home in silence. I can't listen to the radio like I can't like. I'm like, yeah, this one story just was like so traumatic. So now I'm traumatized because I heard that story or you know, like again hundreds of stories.
Speaker 2:I mean I can't even tell you how much I've heard Like it's in. You have to like when I was work, when I work in institutions, I've actually trained myself Like, as soon as I walk through that front gate, like everything is left behind.
Speaker 1:Have you ever heard of the thousand yard stare?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Is that a? Thing?
Speaker 2:I think that's yes and I think that you definitely see that when people are having like flashbacks or like dissociating Disassociating.
Speaker 1:That is what that is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of the time. So like I know someone close to me, he gets that look and I can tell he's like in another world, like you checked out my daughter calls me out on it all.
Speaker 1:She did it to me yesterday and she's like daddy, what are you looking at?
Speaker 2:and I'm like yeah like it embarrasses me well, and that's what I've heard too. The thing I think, unfortunately, it's a blessing and a curse right is I'm very sensitive to other people's trauma, so like I very quickly will notice, like if you're sitting in a certain place in a restaurant, if you hear, you know if you react when, like, a child cries or something Like.
Speaker 2:I notice that, like if you know a loud plane flies by and you know zone out or you know whatever. I noticed that and I think that a lot of people don't necessarily notice that stuff. So it's harder for people with a lot of trauma to kind of like be without having problems, right, because, like like I, when I'm around someone with a lot of like trauma or whatever and I recognize what triggers them, they're a lot more comfortable because I'm also kind of keeping them safe.
Speaker 1:You're pleasant to be around.
Speaker 2:Right and like actually it's funny, we make a joke about it at my house because I'll have friends come over that have like a lot going on or, like you know, traumatic.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And they sleep a lot. Lot going on or, like you know, traumatic. Yeah, and they sleep a lot and I really think that's because, for some reason, I'm providing some kind of safe space where they feel comfortable enough to even sleep, you're right it's weird.
Speaker 2:So and like again I recognize things. So like say that, say that I'm with you and I know that. Um, you know, like again you see like kids crying or something, and I can kind of I'll hear it and I'll be like oh hey, hector, blah, blah, blah. You know what I'm doing like hey did you see that thing over there? You know what?
Speaker 2:I mean you're doing the lord's work and unfortunately I feel like there's not enough of that. Maybe not enough like teaching about it or not. I I'm a behavior person too, so like I notice everything. But when you have someone around like that you feel safer, like right. So if you and I are sitting at a table in a restaurant and for some reason you have to have people behind you like my friend knows that I'm keeping them safe by scanning too.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So like so quite the opposite, quite the contrary of what you're saying. Not only is there not enough people that are emotionally supportive and mindful, as you are, but quite the opposite. I believe that a lot of people encounter people that what is it called? Exasperate the symptom. Exaggerate or, yeah, exact, exasperate the symptom, like, let's say, I'm a form, I'm a ceo that suffered trauma, or a military member that suffered trauma, or a former inmate, yeah, but I'm dating a girl that is fucking off the hook. You know what I mean? Just nagging, accusing me of looking around at other bitches when I'm actually just scanning my area I don't think some people understand their own trauma and their own triggers and symptoms either we're about to dive into that right now yeah um trauma yeah I believe one of the first steps is identifying.
Speaker 1:Would you agree? Identifying what the triggers are and what your trauma was?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, and there's like right when people got back from vietnam right, I think how many divorces or like relationships were just total shit because there was a disconnect of worlds and not only that, but like it was the era of peace, no war, and you're getting spit at and all this other nonsense that was happening when they got back. So one of the problems was that wives, or whatever stereotypical, would cheat or divorce or whatever, because they didn't understand someone waking up, screaming or memory loss.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so fucked up.
Speaker 2:And if someone's Like if I was married and someone was waking up in the middle of the night, like that, I'm going to figure out. What can I do if I hug you and make you like you're safe, you're safe, you're safe. Is that? You know what I should be doing? Granted, it might not go away. It might be there for a long time.
Speaker 2:But, if I can understand it, I also help the other person understand it, and it's a safe space. The problem is that people don't understand. So I don't understand what war is like. I don't understand why you're like this. You're a liar, your memory sucks, you're this, that and the other and you're basically as that traumatized person also getting like invalidated and basically re-traumatized because you're being, you know, your experience is being invalidated.
Speaker 1:This question is going to be directed for you to assist the spouses. If I am Mrs Jones, wife of Officer Jones or Military Veteran Jones and I'm like, hey, ashley, like my husband, he's fucking weird. He fucking wakes up yelling in the middle of the night. I fucking see him staring off into the. He pretends to not remember shit. He fucking 4th of July. He's like a fucking wounded dog.
Speaker 2:4th of July how can you?
Speaker 1:what advice do you have to freaking spouses?
Speaker 2:it's putting yourself in their shoes, like someone doesn't wake up and be like I'm going to wake up screaming in my sleep and, like you know, I can, you know, think I'm dying is going to be the greatest thing to bother you. Like, like nobody's trying to be like that, Like it's a terrible experience and then like to have someone that's supposed to you know it's, it's try to understand it Right, Like I know that you know, and to have someone that's supposed to Try to understand it right. I know that I don't know why certain triggers are triggers. Maybe the person doesn't want to talk about it, but I know they're there and I'm going to start to create a space where, like, hey, help me understand why this is, so that I can then, Like I was giving an example with kids, Then I can navigate and I can understand even better whatever happened.
Speaker 2:That makes sense with that or you know, I don't know, like a like I don't know what's an example of a trigger uh an alarm at costco right. So, like I'm going to be like, oh shit, like every time, because sometimes the other person doesn't even realize they're doing anything, right so? Okay, every time we're in costco and this fucking alarm goes off. Like you like, check out.
Speaker 2:Like you run out the door yes like, or now you're being a jerk to me correct like you start fucking angrily yelling at me and I didn't get the right tomatoes or something whatever. Facts it's kind of being aware of, like, okay, it's not like you don't, it's not like you're choosing to freak out over the fucking alarm. It's not like a choice. So like hey like okay, All right. So maybe we'll not go to Costco, because the alarm goes off.
Speaker 1:That makes sense.
Speaker 2:So hey, let's compromise and go to that makes a safe way instead little sense you can't force someone into getting over it, like, and there's no getting over it, right, but you can't force someone to stop getting triggered by an alarm or stop getting triggered by this, that and the other. It's just how it is, so try to understand it. And like memory is a huge thing, like, like I said, like one person I'm like oh yeah, I told you that. And then I'm just like, yeah, you don't remember, so I'm just gonna tell you again anyways. And like recognizing that that's actually a thing.
Speaker 1:Like people with trauma have bad memories relationships in general are hard, and now you add trauma to either one of the parties or both parties and it's that much more difficult yeah, and you know it's hard in relationships but to not like take things personally.
Speaker 2:But and it's also a lot of work, you know. The other thing is like you have to be a special type of person to be able to navigate that in a healthy way and you have to be open to helping the person work through it. If you just want the person to be a certain way and stop doing that shit, then it's just not going to work out. I can't force you to start remembering shit. It's just going to be the way it is. So if I really care about you and I love you, then I would be like well, fuck it, I'm gonna have to deal with this shit you're actually.
Speaker 1:I don't have to figure out. Where have you been actually? God bless you.
Speaker 2:Uh, like and actually, to be quite honest, I find the memory problem quite fun because I can literally tell the same story over and over and get kicks out of it.
Speaker 1:We're laughing about it now, but that shit fucking damn near I'm not going to say damn near destroyed my marriage, because my marriage is no longer together, but it was a major fucking To this day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, memories are huge.
Speaker 1:And not to bash or to throw stones. We're talking about mental health and real issues, right yeah. For sure, we're talking about real issues. Your boy ain't pretending to be fucking dumb over here, yeah.
Speaker 2:So you just got to understand. You just got to be open to learning and understanding it and trusting that your partner really is Like nobody wants to like. Haha, I do remember, but I'm just gonna like get you to fight with me because I just think, it's so much fun for you to yell at me like that's not anything anyone's no, this is also a realistic question in realistic scenarios.
Speaker 1:Um, in a relationship, if one person suffers a traumatic event and now they're almost using their spouse as a punching bag, is it right for that person to finally say enough is enough and remove themselves from that situation, because now they are being the victim of either verbal abuse, physical abuse or mental abuse?
Speaker 2:I think. So I don't think that you can get. I don't think that's healthy for you if you're getting beat down by it and not, yeah, you shouldn't be a punching bag. I mean, you should be able to have a good life and you know, just because someone has trauma and they're using a punching bag, you can't just be like, well, they have trauma, so that's a fucking excellent topic.
Speaker 1:You know, like yeah it's not an excuse.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like oh well, they're an alcoholic, that's why I beat me. Like that's not an excuse, like it's not okay now, granted, it doesn't mean it's the person's fault, like they're trying to be, like that like trauma causes problems, like for sure, and a lot of it's unresolved trauma for a lot of people for a long time.
Speaker 2:So it's not the person's fault for punching, you know, using the person as a punching bag, but that person shouldn't have to stick around just because, oh well, they're traumatized. So you know, I'm just going to take it. That's not fair.
Speaker 1:Especially if there's children involved and they're observing.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:If they're observing that behavior, oh yeah, yeah, you can't do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if they're observing that behavior. Oh yeah, yeah, you can't do that, yeah, If there's kids around you can't do that. You have to learn how to communicate or be. You know it's a healthy decision to leave, and it might be a reason why that person turns around and is like you know what? I need to change my life, I need to get help.
Speaker 1:Right. Who knows, you know, maybe it's a good thing for both people damn yeah, yeah, trauma's like that's your thing that's your forte yeah so, out of it all, what did you come to your conclusion from being that young girl that wanted to get into the mind of psychopath serial killers? What did you? What was your conclusion? Like what do you mean? What was my conclusion? Are there a bunch of sick motherfuckers in this world? Is everybody going through?
Speaker 2:something killers. What is your? What was your conclusion? Like what do you mean? What was my conclusion?
Speaker 1:are there a bunch of sick motherfuckers in this world? Is everybody going through something? Is can people help each other? Do hurt people hurt people all of the above?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, I mean I don't know. So so I I did my research for my program, for my doctorate on empathy. I developed like a class to build empathy and and psychology students, because unfortunately it doesn't come with the job. So I mean there's just for me. It's like, it's just interesting that just everybody's different. You know, everybody has like things going on, but you've been given a gift.
Speaker 1:You've been given a gift.
Speaker 2:You could see things the way it's a blessing and a curse. That's where the blessing and the curse comes in.
Speaker 1:You see things for what they are as opposed to. I mean, we just walked through downtown San Diego. Right now there's a bunch of homeless people, drug addicted people. I'm sure the way you view that is different than a regular person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually couldn't. I didn't like living in San Francisco, because not? Because it's like homeless people.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Because I knew some of their stories without knowing their stories, like like the trauma that you know and like back in the day that kicked mental mentally ill people out of the institutions, they're on the street and you know, it's pretty rare that someone would be like that addicted to drugs and not have some type of trauma, even if the trauma is in the streets right, because even being in the street is traumatic, like sleeping in danger. So I couldn't really be there because it's like overwhelming for me to like know all this trauma is happening.
Speaker 1:It's because you're seeing the truth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I just yeah, and there's nothing worse to me than like a homeless vet. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Really that has an effect on you.
Speaker 2:It's so fucked up it's like one of the most fucked up shit. I don't understand how we can do that. I don't understand that. That's one thing that I just If I could say that it would be tolerated or whatever. I can't tolerate that. How miserable Not to say that yeah, no, it is, is worse I just think it's totally fucked up I get it as countries doing, you know, making people go to war and then they get back and get spit on like that's insane I get it.
Speaker 1:I definitely get it um. Do you have hope for humanity or are you jaded? I'm pretty jaded yeah you're jaded, but I mean I have no, I know you and we've talked and you are a positive person yeah you're not a negative person. I wouldn't fucking talk to you.
Speaker 2:You're a negative person yeah, I've actually gotten uh people recently. I don't know if I got happy or what, I don't know Like at my last job a lot of people were like you're always smiling and so happy. I mean like there's different reasons that I've kind of come to be like that, but it's just a fucked up world and like I don't know. Like just you know, I try to stay in the present and just be positive and have positive effect on some people, if I can.
Speaker 1:Dude, you just spoke to probably millions of people. There's 8 million people that have watched the YouTube channel, so like oh, wow, yeah. Yeah, and I believe 8 million people. Now you're getting nervous. Yeah, believe hi, eight million people now you get. Now you get nervous. Yeah right, like two hours later I'm like no you said nobody is watching this.
Speaker 1:I'm a firm believer that things happen for a reason yes, 100, that's yes 100 and there's a reason why you're here today explaining to the masses why they need to stop acting like assholes with each other and be more kind, can't we just all get along? Be kind and compassionate.
Speaker 2:Can't we just all get along. You never know what someone's internal battles are. You really don't like. You just don't know what someone's going through. Like some people put on a smile and like you know, you don't know, you don't know, you don't know what anyone's been through Like one of my.
Speaker 2:One of the reasons I did research on empathy is because I had come in contact with some other peers and I was just like what's that? Like, how do you so? Like I had this guy that I worked with. He's like one of my favorite clients and he was just, he was a mess and he, he was very like, like he pissed everybody off. And I did, like my research Not my project For school we had to do like a case formulation.
Speaker 2:So like why is this guy like this type of thing and we write like a history of their life, and so he. So the other, some of the other people that, like my peers, like hated him really, like did not like this dude Understandable to a degree, but like they're here for help. You know it's here for help, he's here for a reason. So I read his story in their supervision or whatever, and like it was so bad, someone started crying and they're like I didn't know and I'm like but this is the problem, is that you should expect that their life is fucked up right and go from there right don't feel bad after you hear their story right like that's not.
Speaker 2:Like I mean this. This guy was like his mom let drug dealers borrow the truck in exchange for drugs and left him in the back of the truck with a juice box. Like of course you're going to be fucked up, so you're going to hold him accountable for this shit when we're here to help.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, we should assume the worst. When I meet someone, I should assume that they have some fucked up story that I could never understand and never. Yeah, like just you never know. They have some fucked up story that I could never understand and never. Yeah, Like, just you never know. Someone could be totally like seem like they got their shit together and they got a great job this and that, and they have like the most terrible history Like you never know.
Speaker 1:I think people are really good at that too, like hiding yeah, masking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that's. That's unfortunately sometimes what happens with people. A lot of trauma is that they they've learned that it's embarrassing and it's bad and it's. You know I have to hide this. It's a problem like I can't. You know, if I say I'm a veteran at a job, they might think I'm going to bug out, you know, at the job. So you know what I mean like you know, because people would more bug out for some reason it's not.
Speaker 2:I mean, I mean I don't see that as I mean just as easily anyone could bug out of the job. Correct, anybody. You don't have to have problems. You could just be crazy Like anyone could bug out. It's not. But you know, like there's like a stigma attached especially to veterans and stuff.
Speaker 1:I believe we come a long way, though, from 2005, because it was non-existent, not talked about, and now we're in 2025 and it's very well known.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, and like psychology and institutions are really focused on like trauma informed care right now, and it's like trying to recognize like granted, it's in's in the beginning and need some work, but trying to recognize that trauma it exists everywhere is it a good idea for a correctional officer to play foosball with inmates?
Speaker 1:where are they playing? Where in prison?
Speaker 2:um, uh, is it a good idea?
Speaker 1:like. Will that bridge the gap between inmates and correctional officers?
Speaker 2:well so there's these professionals called recreational therapists, okay, and they got degrees to actually therapeutically do things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um like music and art and to actually therapeutically do things like that, yeah, like music and art and video game. You know they have like the, yeah, video games and stuff. You know, and I think it's kind of. I think a rec therapist should essentially be the leader in a situation like that, honestly, like that should be their group and you know, and and I think it's great like to collaboratively work with officers too, like if it's a rec therapist, that's their specialty collaborate.
Speaker 2:Oh hey, you know this is what we do when we do it like therapy wise right and you know, or like you know, behavior, or like you know behavior wise, like right, I was this behavior specialist. If you're doing something behaviorally, you should have someone who's specializes in that type of thing to lead it. Now, I don't know, you know, like depends on security level and all that too, you know, I mean I don't know. You know like depends on security level and all that too, you know, I mean. I mean, for me it's all about danger. So, like I just I don't know. There are certain things that I'm afraid, like, at the end of the day, how likely is it that staff and inmates are really going to be friends?
Speaker 1:Not likely at all.
Speaker 2:Right, so like the chances of something going wrong are pretty high.
Speaker 1:Why is it a good idea for correctional officers not to befriend inmates?
Speaker 2:I think sometimes the safety issue of like complacency, like on the staff's part you know you can get along fine with inmates but you don't have to be their friends and you're not actually there to be their friend. You're there to do a job and you know, and part of the job is interacting. Well, you know, but that's not about being friends. I mean, that's really friends technically is an over-familiar thing.
Speaker 1:What about opening the door for manipulation tactics?
Speaker 2:Well, that's just rampant, because not enough people are trained in manipulation. They hand you what. Is it? Anatomy of a motive?
Speaker 1:Let me ask you this We've talked a lot about violence and a lot about trauma, but what about manipulation? What is manipulation and what type of individual the individuals use those tactics so there's different types of manipulation.
Speaker 2:So, like sometimes, I like to say manipulation really is trying to meet a need. So, like everyone, when you're manipulating you're trying to accomplish something, but it's the intention right. So you have a psychopath purposely manipulating someone to, I don't know, bring in weapons. You're purposely manipulating someone. You know what you're doing and you're doing strategically, um. But then there's manipulation like oh, you know, I'm gonna say that I'm hearing voices to get into mental health because I owe a drug debt malingering yes, but it's also a survival thing, right, because I know that I might
Speaker 2:get killed. So I need to say I'm hearing voices to get into mental health to stay safe. That's different than someone saying, okay, you know, I'm going to cut myself. If you don't, you know, give me whatever. And that's the only way they're getting something done. So like wouldn't you expect them to do that if they're going to get what they want Because they're like, I'm going to cut myself, you know? So is that manipulation or is that just getting needs met? It's different for everyone, but some people just don't know how to do things other ways. It's a coping mechanism, Since you're the mental health professional.
Speaker 1:What are some tactics that correctional officers can utilize to prevent from being manipulated by an inmate?
Speaker 2:Well, I think number one is to not isolate yourself.
Speaker 1:Meaning.
Speaker 2:Talk to your coworkers, right, you know, for all you know, I mean three people could be manipulated at the same time because they don't talk to your co-workers, right? Um, you know, for all you know, I mean three people could be manipulated at the same time because they don't talk to anybody wow, by the same person.
Speaker 1:That was the most fucking profound thing you've not, they said, but that it was massive what you just said, yeah like.
Speaker 2:One of the problems that I think you know is staff get manipulated into relationships or bringing you know weapons in or whatever, because they're isolated and they know who to do it to you know, they watch you, like they're watching you from the beginning, correct.
Speaker 2:So if I know that, you know Jane over here barely talks to the other staff or has low self-esteem, you know they pick here, barely talks to the other staff or has low self-esteem, you know they pick up on like, oh, you broke up with your boyfriend or your husband problems or whatever. And the isolation of not talking to people causes problems. Because if we all get together and I'm like, yeah, this guy, you know he was hitting on me or said something oh he, you know he was hitting on me or said something oh he's, you know he did. Said that to me too. Oh shit, he said that to me too. Now I'm like, damn, I'm not so special.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:He's doing it to everyone. But they sometimes make you feel special. You know you think you're special, like oh, he likes me, like he's probably got 10 other girlfriends in this place. You know like it's like, but people need to talk to each other. And if you had that's one thing too If you had more of like support groups, then less of that would happen.
Speaker 1:That's right. I mean, everything you said is gold, like I'm sure it's going to help.
Speaker 2:Cause you think I'm sure you've been on like in places where you know I don't mean to be stereotypical but say there's like three. You know I don't mean to be stereotypical but say there's like three. You know medical staff and a officer and whatever, three females getting manipulated by the same dude and nobody's talking to each other like a player I'm gonna think I'm special like a player player just like someone who's just you manipulate.
Speaker 2:You know, like, let me see how people, many people I can manipulate, you know, and and knowing that people don't talk to each other and there's some kind of thing, like again, where some people just think they're special and there's dogs that work in prison system me.
Speaker 1:I'm a christian man, why'd you?
Speaker 2:laugh. I don't know why. You know, I've always been interested in like, yeah, like how people get manipulated and what. What would possibly compel you to like want to give up your whole career for a dude that's in a cell?
Speaker 1:I've seen it numerous times, more than I worked with people who were like married the officer, like a fire.
Speaker 2:They're married to them and they're like waiting for them to come home. You know, like I mean no, knocking, knocking, I'm not knocking the game, whatever but like the game but if you talk to people, I mean if people just end up in terrible situations.
Speaker 2:It's not okay Like there's some crime show I was watching like a long time ago and it was like in North Carolina or something, and they were letting this female nurse be alone with this inmate, like he was cleaning, like a porter or something, and no one was paying attention to them and they're only she's only like basically with him all day.
Speaker 2:So what do you think is going to happen? But I kind of blame the staff, like the supervisors. You weren't protecting this person and then they saw them like kiss, she gets fired. She ends up on the visitors list because now he's manipulating her. So he he's like people are watching you. He's got people going to her house turning on the lights. Just because you're not in there anymore doesn't mean that they can't continue to manipulate you, you're still screwed.
Speaker 2:If you leave that prison you're still screwed. You don't know who people know. So this guy had his friends rolling up whatever. So basically he manipulated into marrying him Damn.
Speaker 2:So she couldn't testify against or whatever the rules are. And then he went to court and he got her to come with a gun to try to break him out while they were taking him in and out of the van or whatever, and she shot an officer and killed him. So she went from being this nurse in this prison. And again, I don't think you know, the supervisor should have stepped in. There's a problem.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And she got into a situation where she ended up with a murder charge.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, Like the Over, an inmate too of all things and who you know.
Speaker 2:That might have been his primary goal to begin with. That's the thing, too, like primary goal to begin with. That's the thing too, like think about the goal, like it's all about numbers. Like, if I'm an inmate, I'm gonna try it on everybody you know, I'm gonna try it on everyone until I hit somebody. Yeah, oh yeah, I got this one over here, got this one over here, you know, and you have the power to bring stuff in, you have the power to give them some kind of sexual whatever.
Speaker 2:And who wouldn't? You're sitting in prison doing nothing. Why wouldn't you want to do that?
Speaker 1:Nothing to lose, everything to gain.
Speaker 2:I'd be trying to manipulate all. Oh, me too, why not? I mean, this person could potentially break you out. They could give you some phones, they could make you some money. You got a place to live when you leave now bring you food from the outside, like, why wouldn't you do that cell phone? And that's the whole thing is that getting into another beast.
Speaker 2:we are, um, it's such a double standard, right, because in prison, right, as staff, you're in the power position, right? So, even as a female, I know I'm in the power position. If I say he's had sex with an inmate, I'm not going to let the inmates know you are actually raping the inmate. That's rape, correct For the policy for the law. So why is it always that the inmate manipulated the female staff right? But, then in a female prison, the male staff manipulated female inmates yeah so why is it always?
Speaker 2:because to me, as a female staff, I'm manipulating you, because I'm taking advantage of my position yeah, there's in prison.
Speaker 1:There's no such thing as consensual sex right so.
Speaker 2:So some people are like oh well, you know he manipulated. No, no, you took this job and you knew that that was wrong. In fact, we talk about it constantly Don't sleep with. What advice do you have? Don't sleep with it, you know. Don't start relationships, and I go. Ha ha ha. No, that's the problem. And it gets into this. Like, oh, I'm the victim, like, no, you knew going in. The number. One thing they tell you is not to have relationships with inmates.
Speaker 1:They're only the victims when they get caught.
Speaker 2:Or you bring drugs in, whatever the case may be, you know, and it's that double standard, I don't know. It pisses me off. I don't think it's right. People need to be held more accountable.
Speaker 1:We're going to have to have our own series you and. I where we talk about current events and topics and mental health and break down true crime events, Because that would be freaking awesome.
Speaker 2:I saw you on World's Most Evil Prisoners.
Speaker 1:You saw me?
Speaker 2:Yes, I was watching Because I have it on like background sound.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I came on there like three seasons already and I'm like doo-doo-doo-doo-doo.
Speaker 2:I'm at my friend's house and I'm like, I'm at my friend's house and I I'm like, is that, is that hector?
Speaker 1:and I look up on the screen it's hector yeah, I've always wanted to be on a crime show. Oh, that is pretty big now that you bring that up.
Speaker 2:But I love those shows and I was like no, I literally was not even watching.
Speaker 1:I know that fucking guy I know that dude, but anyways, thank you for traveling all the way from New York. I know you had some work stuff over here. Finally coming on sharing your not just experience, it's wisdom, it's sharing your wisdom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fun. No, I'm glad I finally was able to do this For sure.
Speaker 1:And we're going to catch up again and continue this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:There you guys have it, folks, probably the most educational episode we've had thus far. With that, if you like what you saw, make sure you hit the subscribe button. Love you.
Speaker 2:Keep pushing forward Unhinged line. Hector's legend engraved Living life raw, never been tamed.
Speaker 1:From the hood to the pen. Truth entails pen. Hector Bravo. Unhinged Story never ends.
