A Former White Prisoner on Gangs, Meth, and Redemption in California’s System

We trace Jason’s path from teenage addiction and county jail codes to California prisons, a violent turning point in Kern County, and the climb back through sobriety, faith, and service on a mountain rescue team into a new career in engineering. Hard truths about race politics, weapons, homelessness, and civic division meet a practical blueprint for redemption.

• growing up in Chino with prison in view
• early drug use escalating to speed and heroin
• county jail rules, race lines and politics
• first prison term, CMC realities and medical jobs
• tougher yards at Soledad and Ironwood, structure and weapons
• the K9 bite, beating, and choosing sobriety in 2007
• rebuilding with sober living, lift ops, EMT and ski patrol
• living amends through service and certifications
• career pivot into inspections and engineering
• faith returning to public life and personal practice
• views on homelessness, accountability and policy
• repairing family ties and accepting responsibility

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Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Jason’s Background
• 3:45 Growing Up Near Chino Prison
• 8:30 Early Drugs, Curiosity, And Addiction
• 13:45 Gangs, Race Rules, And Jail Politics
• 20:30 First Serious Case: Robbing The Connect
• 25:50 Reception To Prison: Culture Shock And CMC
• 31:20 Soft Yards, Medical Jobs, And Staying Put
• 36:40 Tougher Yards: Structure, Weapons, And Violence
• 43:30 County Vs Prison: Power, Respect, And CO Dynamics
• 48:50 Hardening, Compassion, And Survival Logic
• 54:30 Fatherhood Lost And The Cost Of Time
• 58:55 The Chase, The Dog Bite, And A Turning Point
• 1:05:30 Not Filed, Beaten Instead: Fate And Three Strikes
• 1:11:40 Homelessness, Accountability, And Policy
• 1:18:10 Division, Youth, And The Digital Disconnect
• 1:24:30 Faith, Assassination, And National Shock
• 1:31:20 Parole To Purpose: Sober Living And Work
• 1:36:40 Snow Valley: EMT Path And Service
• 1:43:00 Living Amends: Helping As Healing
• 1:47:40 New Career: Certifications And Engineering
• 1:53:00 Hope, Growth, And Lasting Redemption

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

Dr. Bravo on it's now in second.

SPEAKER_02: 0:11

Welcome back to our channels, Warriors. We are still growing today. Another banger for you guys. Today's guest, Jason, has a lot of vast experience dealing with the California judicial system from the jails to the courts to the prisons. So we're gonna learn, dive in to see exactly what it's like to be in those shoes. What up, Jason? Hey, how are you doing, Hagderson? Pretty good, man. Thanks for being here, dude.

SPEAKER_01: 0:33

Yeah, yeah, thank you, bro. How's your commute? It it wasn't bad. It wasn't bad. It's I think almost two hours. I got here early because I didn't know if there was gonna be parking and on the parking.

SPEAKER_02: 0:44

Yeah. We were just discussing downtown San Diego, man. What's your opinion on it?

SPEAKER_01: 0:49

Um, it's like downtown LA, kind of not as bad, though. Not as bad. Not as bad. Uh uh downtown LA is is bad. Yeah, a lot of homeless. Uh it it's a mess. It is. Yeah. Where did you grow up at, dude? Uh Chino. Dai. I don't know too many people that grew up in Chino. Oh, yeah, there's a lot of us. Yeah, there that there's a lot of us. Uh uh Chino. Um in fact, uh uh um my mom was worked at Chino Prison. She did? Yeah. As a what? MTA. As an MTA. Yeah, uh MTAs might have been before your time.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25

No, uh, so when I was at the academy, the MTAs were crossing over from MTA to CO. They were doing a fast academy. Did she do that as well?

SPEAKER_01: 1:33

No, she went uh this was in the 80s. Oh, okay, okay. Um, but but yeah, she had to go to the academy and um and uh and then they end up getting rid of the uh MTAs. Correct. So you knew about prison. Oh, I totally knew about prison because uh I remember my brother uh would take her to work when she worked graveyard, and we would drive right down Central Avenue to uh the parking lot and uh drop her off at the gate, right? And then uh I didn't know at the time, but I know now that that was Madrone I was looking at, right? And I remember one night we went there and there was uh fire coming out the windows, and and I was always intrigued by like, you know, that that world. Why was there fire coming out of the window? I don't know. I there's probably who who knows why there, you know, uh well I know because I spent time in there later that um, you know, all the windows are broken out, right? So um I don't know if somebody was uh lighting a cigarette and they threw the toilet paper, but I'll always remember that. And um, yeah. And then she used to bring home, you know, that was when they still had weights, right? Yes. So she'd bring home pictures of dudes getting smashed by the by the wait pile. You know, to try to kind of like this is as as time progressed, and uh, I was kind of going down the wrong road, and she would bring home pictures, you know, like uh photos of of dudes that got murdered on the way pile.

SPEAKER_02: 3:00

So I like the educational portion of speaking to people, right? And including yourself. We often hear of of gang members, right?

SPEAKER_01: 3:09

And you were not affiliated with the gang? I I wasn't affiliated with a gang, but yeah, I mean, you know as well as I do, everybody in prison is affiliated with something. Right. If you're politicking or you're um or or you're in the game, you're you're affiliated with somebody. But I'm talking about before being valid. No, I I mean uh uh the the white boys on the streets are either skinheads, Nazi Lowriders, the brand. Were you associating with them? You associate with all of them. You did? Yeah. You were on the streets? Yes. Yeah, I got homeboys that are NLR brand members, uh skinheads. I I mean, it it's it's not like if you're a a Southsider or you're a Northeno or you're right, where you're associated with one gang.

SPEAKER_02: 3:55

It's kind of like a melting pot of so when I was asking you the question about gangs, I was referring to them as well as the brand, NLR. Yeah, yeah. So you were associated with that crowd? Well, 100%. You were damn dude.

SPEAKER_01: 4:13

So you were affiliated, yeah. But but but I'm not a validated member to any one of those correct, right?

SPEAKER_02: 4:21

Oh, I'm uh now I'm hearing what you're saying, bro. You're tracking me. Um now I'm tracking 100% I'm tracking you. 88% I'm tracking you, man. 88%, exactly. That's an inside joke, yeah. So what is this age that you're running around with these guys? How old were you?

SPEAKER_01: 4:38

I I mean shit, it started uh uh um it started probably 16, 17 years old because um, you know, I got into drugs really early in my life. And uh it started with just smoking weed and drinking and then uh eventually into um eventually into speed and then heroin.

unknown: 4:57

Damn.

SPEAKER_02: 4:58

Is would would you agree or disagree that marijuana is a gateway drug?

SPEAKER_01: 5:03

100%. Agree? 100%. Not for everybody, correct? And you know, things kind of changed nowadays to where it's um, you know, it's more socially acceptable. And uh I have a lot of friends that that smoke, and you know, I I could care less. You know, I I think it's uh I think it's uh the lesser of two evils between uh um um marijuana and alcohol. I think alcohol is alcohol is nasty, dude. I agree, bro. I'm an alcoholic. Yeah, it's nasty. It is, it ruins. I would rather people smoke weed that than than drink.

SPEAKER_02: 5:38

Well, I would rather neither, neither I hear what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01: 5:43

You usually we don't hear about people on on weed that have destroyed their freaking lives, and there's actually people that are really functional on it, right? Correct. Um, you know, for me, definitely not. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 5:58

Yeah, because would you say you're an addict? 100%.

SPEAKER_01: 6:02

100%.

SPEAKER_02: 6:03

And we'll dive down that path as well. But I want to know your upbringing, man. Um, have you seen the movie American History X?

SPEAKER_01: 6:10

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 6:10

Is it similar to that?

SPEAKER_01: 6:12

No.

SPEAKER_02: 6:12

No?

SPEAKER_01: 6:13

No, I I I mean, I I think that's kind of um yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 6:17

Hollywood? Yeah. Put a tin on it. Yeah. The whole what? The whole neo-Nazi extremism?

SPEAKER_01: 6:23

Yeah, yeah. I I I mean, it's just uh uh, you know, my reality is uh uh most of the people that I knew were kind of just middle class kids, right? And normal kids, right? Uh uh, you know, some of them were poor, some of them were middle class, some of them came from really good, wealthy families, right? And they've just they just chose to uh do drugs and and to get into crime, and and and then it just takes you down that road.

SPEAKER_02: 6:52

I'm glad you're here today, bro, because I don't have too much experience talking to like a former white, if you know what I mean. You know what I mean? Former white as in that group, that group segment. Yeah um and it's yeah, I'm interested, bro. I love learning, dude. Yeah, me too. So your mother, I'm sure, is very bright, understands her son. She starts seeing you, your behaviors change. So she brings home pictures of gruesome prison attacks. Yeah. And I'm I'm willing to admit it didn't have an effect on you.

SPEAKER_01: 7:26

It just made me, I I was very I I remember being just very curious. See what I mean? Like I it made me be, I I was very curious because she would, you know, like uh uh when you when you work in that environment, as you know, right, it it's the there's stories to tell, right? And and I I know when she was talking with uh my my dad, or we'd be camping, or you know, what she would tell all these stories. She was a good storyteller, and uh um, you know, uh people were always amazed by like you know, somebody getting murdered on the way pile or whatever little you know political things that go on in there. It's yeah, yeah, you know, it's it's it's kind of uh an underworld that nobody knows about. People are intrigued by prison. They're culturally. So you were as well intrigued by it? Oh, 100%. Yeah, 100%. I I almost always kind of feel like I destined myself to be there because manifested, maybe? Yeah, manifested is is is the word. Is because you were just I was just thinking about it too much. And I, you know, when you grow up in Chino, you and you're going down Central Avenue, you're to this day, right? To this day, I I uh you pass the prison. And you're like, oh, there's the West Yard and there's the East Yard, or if you're going down Euclid, right? You see the East Yard, you see YTS, uh they have uh Boys Republic there. Now Chino is not Compton, right? No, no, Chino, Chino is the last city uh in the inland empire.

SPEAKER_02: 9:00

Correct. But what I'm gonna attempt to identify is Chino is not Compton. A lot of people contribute gangs and criminal lifestyle to lack of opportunity, meaning lack of like maybe um educational programs or sports or youth leagues. Did Chino have opportunities? Oh, 100%. Did you partake in those opportunities? Um when you say opportunities, what what do you mean? I mean, there's certain paths people can take in life, and it's either, you know, you're gonna play sports. Did you just make a hard lift?

SPEAKER_01: 9:33

No, so so it was uh um, you know, my my dad was even in uh uh this came later on, but he was in uh city politics. He ended up being the mayor for 20 years in that city, right? Uh um so I I came from a good family. Um, and I was involved in in sports and uh and pop corner football and and then uh uh later on into the boxing gym and and um you know my my dad was real big in youth sports. Um so there's plenty of opportunities.

SPEAKER_02: 10:04

So with you looking back in hindsight, would you say your poor choices were contributed by addiction?

SPEAKER_01: 10:13

100%. Yeah, 100%. I I mean the the prison system, the jails, 99.9% is all drugs, right? One way or the other. One way or the other.

SPEAKER_02: 10:28

Yeah, bro. At least we're getting somewhere. We're getting somewhere here, bro. That's what I was trying to pull out of you to try to figure out.

SPEAKER_01: 10:34

Yeah, yeah, well, one way or the other. Not so much what went wrong here, but in a sense, what went wrong here. Yeah. Because, you know, you know, I I mean, it it's like I have a sister that grew up in the same house. Correct. Right? Correct. And and and and made, you know, and and she experimented too, but she just so-called.

SPEAKER_02: 10:55

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I got a sister similar. Cool, bro. So now, well, not cool, man. It's unfortunate that you had to endure all of that, but we're we're we're on, we're going somewhere here.

SPEAKER_01: 11:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 11:07

Speed. Actually, uh, this is an honest question, bro. What is speed? Because I know what meth is and I know what coke is. That's what it is. It's it's meth? Yeah. Okay, just a different name. Yeah, crank, whatever.

SPEAKER_01: 11:18

Ice, yeah, crank, whatever. Speed, man.

SPEAKER_02: 11:21

Fuck, dude. Did you enjoy doing it? Oh, 100%. You did?

SPEAKER_01: 11:26

Yeah, 100%. What did you enjoy? Well, I I mean, uh, everything about it. It's just like how it made you feel, and and um, I I remember I was I was young, um, and me and my mom got into an argument, and um I had told her, like, hey, fuck you, or something like that, right? And and then I ran out the back and jumped over the wall, and she said and she said, You better run, right? And I thought, oh, I'm gonna get my ass beat when I get home, right? And so I came back that night and slept in the boat in the garage.

SPEAKER_02: 11:59

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SPEAKER_01: 12:16

And that was kind of the beginning uh of that, but but then I started like I didn't come back for a few days, right? And then I started, and and this was kind of the time when I was experimenting and and uh uh smoking weed and and then and then I stayed out all night one night and I ended up at this house, right? Which was a buddy of mine's house, and they're all smoking speed over there, right? And uh, and then so I tried it. And uh, and and it showed me two things. I didn't have to go to sleep, so I didn't have to find a place to sleep. Wow, right? And I didn't have to eat. Wow. Right? You didn't have to eat, so I could go like days without eating, right? And and to me that was the solution, right?

SPEAKER_02: 12:59

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01: 13:00

Yeah, to me that was the solution, and and you're hanging out with people all night, and and you know, nothing good comes from that, right? Yeah, nothing good comes from staying up all night, not eating for days, right? And you're hanging out with with these other people who are doing the exact same thing, right? And then and then that leads into hey, let's go steal some some radios from cars and and and on and on and on and on.

SPEAKER_02: 13:26

Now, stealing the radios from the cars, was it to gain money to buy more drugs?

SPEAKER_01: 13:30

100%.

SPEAKER_02: 13:33

Did you care about the victims at all? Did you care You don't even think about it later on Right, right.

SPEAKER_01: 13:39

No, but during the time. Yeah, yeah, you don't even think about it.

SPEAKER_02: 13:42

They got a radio, I'm gonna take that. Yeah. Do you remember uh how they were smoking it the first time with a pipe, with a foil?

SPEAKER_01: 13:51

It was foil. It was foil. Uh uh uh when I started doing it, it was all foil. You're probably asking yourself, how do I know all of this? But oh I know. I I I I I've I listened to you, so so I I know. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 14:04

God damn, dude. I just seen an Amazon documentary of Arkansas. They were injecting it. You have any experience in that?

SPEAKER_01: 14:13

Oh yeah, yeah. You've injected myth? Well, yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it it's an evolution, right? So uh let's talk about it. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's an evolution. So um um that that's where the where it ended up. It ended up being slamming speed, and then and then uh, and then that was once you go that route, it it's it's you never go back. Did you ever speedball? Yeah, 100. I if I I would do speed, heroin, coke, all at the same time. And in fact, in fact, the uh the connection where I got uh uh my heroin, right? I don't know why, and and and other people who probably are into heroin probably know the the answer to this, but they would always like if you'd go get a uh um you know like a quarter gram of of heroin, it would always come with a little bit of coke. I had no idea. Yeah, it would always come with a little bit of coke, like wrapped up in this little balloon, and I'm like, who the hell tied this little balloon? But half coke in there. And then so I so uh so I would, you know, every time I went to go to go to the connection and and score, right? I would say about three of those balloons, and then and then on the third time, once I had enough, then I would I would bang all both of them. You believe maybe that was an overdose precaution measure? I don't know what what what it's for, but uh um but maybe like a narcan type of mentality? The what?

SPEAKER_02: 15:40

Maybe like a narcan type of type of mentality? Like if you overdose on the heroin, you're gonna get brought back to the street.

SPEAKER_01: 15:44

Yeah, I don't know. I don't I I mean I think it I think it was just to keep you coming back.

SPEAKER_02: 15:50

Oh God. Now, and I and I just gotta make it be clear, like we're not gl glorifying the drug use, no, but we're definitely diving into the consequences and the severity of drug usage. Do you ever snort myth?

SPEAKER_01: 16:05

Yeah, I I mean, yeah, yeah. I I mean any way you could do it, well, whether we're smoking it, snorting it, whatever.

SPEAKER_02: 16:13

Did your body become dependent on it?

SPEAKER_01: 16:16

100%. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02: 16:21

Fuck, dude. When was your first jail incarceration?

SPEAKER_01: 16:28

I think I was 16 or 17. Um we broke into um uh me and my buddy. We uh uh there was uh I I I remember there was uh do you do you remember the uh the churches would have like a power team, right? What do you mean power team? That they would they would have these guys that come in and they would like rip up uh telephone books and and they were called the power team and and and it was like and they did it in in the name of God and and I don't remember that. Yeah, there was some community thing going on in the industrial complex behind us, and uh um me and my buddy we went over there and we were watching it and they were giving a prize away, right? Uh, you know, they were giving several prizes away, and one of them was a bike. So we took the bike and we bit and we boned out, right? From the church? Yeah, from the from the from the from the church, from the event. And uh, you know, obviously we got told on, and uh uh they went to my buddy's house and then they came into my house and then they took us to to jail, and then uh as a as a lesson, uh, you know, obviously they called our parents right away because we were minors, and they took us to to juvenile hall, made us in there overnight, and then they picked us up the next morning.

SPEAKER_02: 17:51

When was your first long-term stay in the county jail?

SPEAKER_01: 17:56

I think I got long term, like nothing in the county jails, really long term, but uh uh like 30 days. 30 days? Yeah, I think 30 days. What jail? Um, San Mordino, Glenn Helen.

SPEAKER_02: 18:09

GP general population.

SPEAKER_01: 18:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 18:11

At that time, at that place, was there different races and gangs mixed?

SPEAKER_01: 18:16

Oh yeah, the county jail, yeah. I I mean that that that that's where that that's where you learn the ropes to to your future prison career, right? But but yeah, in California, it's super uh I mean yeah, you know, it's it's super segregated. You know, the whites are with the whites and and the uh uh the Mexicans are with the Mexicans, and in the county jail though, it's it's uh you know it's it it's it's a different dynamic. Elaborate. You know, in the pen it's real like structured, right? Uh um established. It's established. Um you know the what white the the whites are are are the minority, right? And and there's a there's a lot, you know, I hate to say it, but there's a lot of whites in there that are are um, you know, a lot of them are just drunks or you know, um homeless or whatever. The the they're not like soldiers like you would see in in the pin, right? You're talking about in jail.

SPEAKER_02: 19:19

In jail. Okay, I'm glad you clarified that because I thought you were talking about prison, and I'm like, no, everyone, every fucking white I seen it was a fucking soldier.

SPEAKER_01: 19:26

Yeah, yeah, no, in in jail. Right. Right. It's just that I I mean, obviously it depends on the jail you're in. Like if you go to West Valley or I I mean, I haven't been to jail here and so that's what you're explaining.

SPEAKER_02: 19:38

The dynamics were different. Yeah. What um housing was it? Dorm, cells?

SPEAKER_01: 19:43

It was well at Glenn Helen, it was all dorms. It's all dorm living. Bunk beds? Yeah, but uh four high.

SPEAKER_02: 19:51

Four high. All races. All races. Did you sense any hostility at that point in time?

SPEAKER_01: 19:57

Oh, there's always hostility.

SPEAKER_02: 19:59

Or tension, I should say.

SPEAKER_01: 20:00

Yeah, there's always. I I mean it's never ending.

SPEAKER_02: 20:03

For people that have never been in jail or prison and wonder what kind of tension arises or why would there be? Could you give an explanation?

SPEAKER_01: 20:13

A race, it's all racial, it's uh it's commodities, it's soups, it's it's uh uh gambling, it's cards, it's it's whatever, right? It's it's whoever has the tobacco or the weed or it's it's all those things.

SPEAKER_02: 20:32

Would you also say it also comes to a form of dominance, maybe? People want to establish their dominance.

SPEAKER_01: 20:40

Yeah, and and 100%. Yeah, it it's the um, you know, whatever race, and I haven't seen this in in prison. Uh um, you know, whatever race has the biggest car, right? You see them kind of flexing, right? That is true. It's the same thing in in jail. That is true.

SPEAKER_02: 21:01

So as you are a youngster in jail doing these little stints in and out, and you're in the middle of addiction, are you learning any types of politics?

SPEAKER_01: 21:12

Yeah, that's where I mean that that's that's where you learn it at. That's exactly where you learn it at.

SPEAKER_02: 21:18

What are some of the rules that the whites had?

SPEAKER_01: 21:22

I mean, shit, uh uh you don't eat after another race.

SPEAKER_02: 21:27

Don't eat after another race. Elaborate.

SPEAKER_01: 21:31

You know, like the blacks, for example, never ever eat after the blacks.

SPEAKER_02: 21:35

What do you mean by that though? Eat after them.

SPEAKER_01: 21:39

You know, uh I'll give you an example. So so a lot of times, uh, you know, especially the white boys, right? Because they come in all strung out, haven't eaten in days, right? They get thrown into the county jail. Um, it's chow time, they come out, right? They're starving, they just eat up all their shit real quick, right? And and in the county jail, at least several times when I was in there, they would bring you out. And and and I'm talking about um, you know, they'd bring you out like you were lined up, you know, where your bunks were, your cells were, and you'd have to sit, you know, per cell order, right? So you'd be sitting next to the black or across, right? And uh um one of the whites might go, hey, you gotta eat that? Or or or one of the blacks might go, hey Wood, you gotta uh you want to trade this cake for that or whatever, right? And then and they would do it, and then next thing you know, they're getting smashed on. I hear what you're saying. Yeah. So that I I mean you learn that right away. You learn that right away. Don't do business, you know, with them. Um, you know, and and that that that's uh it's even more so in the pen. 100%, bro. So but the but you learn that in jail.

SPEAKER_02: 22:59

So from your perspective, were you noticing that other g uh race groups had their own rules?

SPEAKER_01: 23:06

Yeah, everybody has their own rules. But but I I mean it's it it's I I mean it they're all the same. There's boundary lines like hey, that table is the whites, that's the south siders, and right?

SPEAKER_02: 23:22

Right. To a degree, they're all the same. I mean the common house rules, but I'm talking about like the Mexicans have don't be drunk out on the tier, right?

SPEAKER_01: 23:30

Yeah, I I mean that that changes from dorm to dorm, from uh uh housing unit to housing unit, from institution to institution.

SPEAKER_02: 23:38

Now, as a white, were you ever told or expected to get off if one of yours was involved?

SPEAKER_01: 23:45

Oh, 100%. You you better get off. What's the expectation behind that? The expectation is is you get involved. Like if you see something happening, you run to it. Right? And then and then once the yard goes down, you better hope you're in the right spot. Meaning? Meaning like uh um, you know, everyone's aware what of what everyone else is doing, right? So so if if uh you see uh two white boys across the yard getting down with two Southsiders, right, everybody better be running over there. Right, right, and getting down with somebody else, even if it's just to be a body. Correct. Right? Even if it's just to be a body, you better be there. Because then, right, once his yard yard's down and everybody's looking around like, oh, what's dude doing over there all by himself? Right? Yeah, what what's what's he doing over there all by himself? How bad is it gonna be for that individual? It's gonna be bad. Um and and um even if he had a valid reason. Correct, because there is no valid reason, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, there is. Well, I mean, think about it. Sometimes there is, but but but in there, people just they're they're animals. They just, you know, like I was always a voice of reason, which is not always a good thing. Um, you know, as far as like, you know, I I I always thought like, dude, even even our weakest guy, you gotta build those people up. You have to. You gotta build them up, right? Because if you just if if if you just get rid of them, that's one more body, we're down. True, right? You gotta build those people up. But in there, it you know, that mentality, they're like, nah, fuck that dude. He's a piece of shit, he should have been over here. Let's get rid of him, right? So it's like, and and and that that's what usually wins out. Which one? The violence? Yeah, the smashing them, getting them off.

SPEAKER_02: 25:46

Yeah. Weapons in jail, were they a thing?

SPEAKER_01: 25:51

Oh, 100%. They were? Yeah. Metal? Yeah. Metal, uh uh, toothbrushes, like whatever they get their hands on. Well, I would assume the toothbrushes is. Yeah, it's more so um razor blades. Okay. Uh uh, mostly mostly razor blades. Yeah, you know, you'd get your uh your your razors and they take the razors out, but were you proficient in weapon making? Was I no, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 26:19

But I would imagine certain people have their own skill set. You know what I mean? Or maybe drawing?

SPEAKER_01: 26:23

Well, you know what they were doing when I was in there? Uh do you know those black uh metal paper clips?

SPEAKER_02: 26:29

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. You already know what I'm saying. Yeah, but you carve out the bunk for the shelving unit. Yeah. And we'll get to that right now when we get to prison. So you're in and out of jail, bro. You're in and out of jail. Did the the mind, did the pro did the uh thought ever cross your mind that, hey, well, I'm gonna end up in prison?

SPEAKER_01: 26:48

Oh, I knew it was going there. Like uh, you know, a lot of times as I'm getting busted, right? I'm thinking, like, okay, they're gonna give me five years or right. And then, you know, a lot of my buddies they end up just taking 16 months. Yeah, you know, it uh uh uh when I was growing up and and getting into this, it was like a revolving door of like all my older homeboys and stuff. They were like just in and out of prison all the time, like, like, oh, where's where where's homeboy at? Oh, he got busted, he got a violation, so he'd be gone nine months and then he'd be back, right? He'd be out for three and then gone for two years, and then it was just a revolving door. You know, this was before um um the three strikes law. Before the three strikes law. Yeah, when it was just a revolving door of um of yeah, you know, um um of you know career criminals.

SPEAKER_02: 27:43

Oh, I'm I'm tracking. Yeah, I'm tracking.

SPEAKER_01: 27:45

Of career criminals, maybe late 80s or early 90s time frame. Well, well, when was the uh three strikes law? 95?

SPEAKER_02: 27:53

Early 90s, yeah. And that's been interesting to learn about. Yeah. How do you feel about the three straw three strike law then? Like in hindsight.

SPEAKER_01: 28:07

That's what uh I mean that's what fucked everything up. Meaning? It's I I mean, I I I guess there's two ways to look at it. There's uh um, you know, there was this revolving door of uh of career criminals, right? Yes. That are just going in and out, in and out, right? And then something bad happens, like um, you know, like the the very thing that created the three strikes with uh Richard Allen Davis um kidnapped that little girl. Yeah, right? He was a career criminal, right? He was a career criminal, so that's what um I don't know if it was him or the or there was, and then there was another incident, Fresno or something, right? Where um those two fathers got together and got with an assembly uh person and they wrote that bill, right? And it was about uh stopping, you know, the recidivism rate and you know, the these career criminals that, you know, uh politically, you know, whoever the governor was at the time would say, like, hey, the reason uh Pauly Klass was murdered was because of these career criminals that keep coming in and out. This guy should have been locked up, you know, for 20 years. If he was if he wasn't out, this never would have happened.

SPEAKER_02: 29:26

Such as the black man that killed the Ukrainian woman on the same exact thing. He had been uh in court 14 times, I believe, or dismissed. Something like that.

SPEAKER_01: 29:37

So this this is the pendulum of justice swinging back and forth, and and that's what it does.

SPEAKER_02: 29:43

But as you're talking now, right, because we're both men of reason and understanding of it and experience. Yeah. I believe the three strike laws. I believe, first of all, I believe government is is idiotic when it comes to implementing something, right? Maybe the three strike. Law would be good if it was implemented correctly. Right? Because they struck a lot of dudes out for stealing a slice of pizza and bubblegum. Yeah. That's not cool per se. Right?

SPEAKER_01: 30:10

Because I mean, I I I was right there. I was uh yeah, I I mean uh uh my first prison term was with 80% because I I got I got a strike. And then my second one was for uh for drug possession or sales.

SPEAKER_02: 30:24

Oh shit, you said what was your first uh prison offense?

SPEAKER_01: 30:28

Uh uh robbery with a gun? Well, uh uh it ended up getting broken down to uh to strong arm.

SPEAKER_02: 30:36

What what were the what were the circumstances? Did you just it was a uh connect? You robbed a connect?

SPEAKER_01: 30:43

Yeah. Did you have the intention on robbing the connect? Yeah. Uh but that but the intention was so so don't ever think that that drug dealers don't call the police because they do. Right? Because they definitely do. But but but the thing is, the thing is, if you're ever gonna do it, right, just take their dope. Don't take anything else because uh because that's what I did.

SPEAKER_02: 31:06

Wait, wait, wait a minute. So you went from fucking stealing car stereos and you upgraded your game to now you would thought in your head you were involved with the net?

SPEAKER_01: 31:13

I I mean that that that's that's the deal, right? Everything just kind of progresses.

SPEAKER_02: 31:18

Yeah, it progresses. So in your head, you thought, oh, he's a fucking drug dealer. He ain't gonna call the cops. Yeah. Yeah. But he did call the cops. He did call the police. And now what were you saying about just take the dope or leave the dope? What were you saying and what was the reason behind that?

SPEAKER_01: 31:34

Oh no, because uh um I I took I took other things other than just the dope, right?

SPEAKER_02: 31:41

So that probably upset him.

SPEAKER_01: 31:43

Well, that gave him a reason to call the police, not for the dope. Right, but hey, he took my TV and he took my jewelry box and he took, right? Right. So the police will come for that. Like, you're not gonna call the police and go, hey, yeah, he took an ounce of uh of fucking meth from me, right? Yeah, he took my jewelry box.

SPEAKER_02: 32:04

So knowing what you know now, had you in your mindset then, you're like, I'm just gonna take this motherfucker's dope and suck him in the mouth.

SPEAKER_01: 32:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 32:10

Call it a day, call it a day.

SPEAKER_01: 32:13

Yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_02: 32:15

The insanity of this thinking, bro.

SPEAKER_01: 32:18

Yeah, the insanity. I I thought it was gonna be easy. I I thought it was easy, and I didn't realize it was easy until it wasn't. Yeah, yeah. So let me fucking talk us through it, bro. You got away? I I got away, and then yeah, I got away and it was a mess. It was a mess. Um, you know, I had a lot of people after me. Um lot of people from the streets? Yeah, well, well, well, that crowd. Correct, right? That crowd. I was a youngster too. I was, I mean, I was only 18, 19 years old. And they had identified you?

SPEAKER_02: 32:53

Like it was no secret, it was you. Yeah, yeah. Were you recognizable? Were you known? Is it a small area?

SPEAKER_01: 33:00

Yeah, I I mean it's uh by that time the the local police had already known who I was. I mean, I I'd been in trouble quite a few times for just various things, and um, yeah. So how did you get caught? Uh well he told. Right. Um, and then um I felt I I forget now exactly how it went down because there were so many instances, but um, I had got stopped for something else, and then I went uh um like possession or something, right? Or under the influence, and I was in jail, and then when I was in there, um they came to my cell and got me, right? And um and said it was uh um an interview. I'm like, what the fuck, you know, uh uh yeah, it was an interview. So they took me down to this interview room and there was two detectives, two detectives there, right? And they started asking me questions, right? And then I I said, oh yeah, I was there, right? Right, because I I thought I was outsparting them, oh yeah, like I went there to buy dope and like um and then next thing they uh I knew they took me back to the cell and then they pulled me out again and took me to supplemental booking. Fuck, dude. Yeah, that's they took me to supplemental booking and booked me for that robbery.

SPEAKER_02: 34:22

That's interesting. I never talked to somebody who's been arrested while they were arrested. Yeah, rearrested, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:27

Yeah, so I never knew either what supplemental booking was, but that yeah. Was that the felony?

SPEAKER_02: 34:33

Yeah. No way, bro. You go in there for a fucking like probably misdemeanor, and then now you're getting rebooked for a felony. Okay. So now they tell you, what do they tell you? You're being sentenced? Do you go to court? Do you go through a trial?

SPEAKER_01: 34:47

No, so yeah, yeah, you go through the whole process, you go through court, um, you know, you go through your preliminary and you go or for your arraignment and then your preliminary. No, the uh uh um so so what ended up happening, I ended up getting uh um uh some counting time and then a joint suspended. Okay, right? I ended up getting a joint suspended. Uh so basically the what what that is is you're gonna get four with eighty um suspended, right? Don't violate any laws within three years, and if you do, you're gonna you're going back and doing the suspended sentence. Is that what happened? That's it, that's it ended up what happened.

SPEAKER_02: 35:26

So happened. What did you do to cause you to sus?

SPEAKER_01: 35:30

I forget now. I I I mean I I I was just in and out, um stealing something.

SPEAKER_02: 35:37

Uh who knows? So when you got incarcerated within the California Department of Corrections, where did you go to reception?

SPEAKER_01: 35:44

Um, Wasco.

SPEAKER_02: 35:45

Wasco. Yeah. Now, when you're introduced into state prison, did it seem similar to you as a county jail?

SPEAKER_01: 35:55

No, it was totally, it's totally different. But but by this time, you know, I I I had done years in the county jail. So, you know, I was prepared. I, you know, I I had my pinockle game down. I had, you know, I was ready. Uh, but it's still different, right? You get on that bus and you're going to the pin, and and it's still uh, you know, it's still a little nerve-wracking, and you're like, you, you know, you don't know what you're getting into, right? Um did you at the time have known friends that were incarcerated in state paper?

SPEAKER_02: 36:28

Oh, yeah. I I mean everybody I knew was in there. Did you uh run into anybody initially?

SPEAKER_01: 36:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 36:35

What was that like?

SPEAKER_01: 36:36

Um like a happy re-feels good. It feels good. Yeah, I mean, I would see people all the time. It felt good. Yeah, whenever you see, whenever you see your homeboys or somebody from the streets, maybe like a sense of reassurance? Yeah, it feels good. Yeah, uh like, but I mean it's really, I know there's I don't know how many prisons there are now, but they're at the time I think there was 32.

SPEAKER_02: 36:57

Yeah, approximately probably were there or two again.

SPEAKER_01: 37:00

Yeah, uh um, but even though it's the even though we have the largest system in the country, it's still kind of relatively small. Correct. Right? Correct.

SPEAKER_02: 37:11

Now, were you noticing, damn, there's a lot of blacks here. Damn, there's a lot of Mexicans here.

SPEAKER_01: 37:17

Oh, yeah. I mean, uh, yeah, there's there's barely any whites here. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 37:23

Now, what is it about the whites that have that ferocity where when they stab a motherfucker, they mean business. What is it about the white race that it kind of separates them to a degree?

SPEAKER_01: 37:39

I I maybe because we're the minority. Is that what is that what it is? I mean, maybe. I uh you you know, I don't know what the psyche behind it is, but but but maybe I I mean uh and you know it depends on the yard you're on, right?

SPEAKER_02: 37:52

Um yeah, sometimes I wonder, you know, is it the fucking Viking blood that's running through their veins? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01: 38:00

That I mean it sounds good, right? But it's a possibility, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 38:03

Right? Because everybody has their national descent lineage. You got the Mexicans from the Aztecs, the blacks have their I think you just gotta step your game up.

SPEAKER_01: 38:13

Uh you know, you know you're outnumbered, right? Um, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 38:19

Would you agree or disagree with me as far as the whites move with a purpose?

SPEAKER_01: 38:23

Yeah, but I think they all do. I I think all races do. I I I mean, um, you know, we're just we're we're just a minority.

SPEAKER_02: 38:33

After reception, where did you touch down to do your time?

SPEAKER_01: 38:36

I went to uh I went to CMC, which is kind of interesting because um see uh you know I uh like I think nowadays um CMC, well even then, um, you know, I know everything's S and Yard now, but but at the time that was uh and I think I don't think I I know the reason I went there was because my mom was an MTA. Okay, right? So so I I went, you know, originally when I was in um in uh reception, I think I was a level two, right? And then I got in a fight into reception with uh a fellow Yeah, with another white guy. Uh and then we went to the hole for like two days, came back, uh, that bumped my points up to I forget what it was, like 37 points or something. So that put me in a level three. So I went to a level three uh CMC yard. Um and my my celly, my first celly that I had there was uh um a lifer that had been down since 1979. Damn. Right. And uh this these uh this is one of those yards that had, I think Suge Knight was there at the time. You know, we had the onion field killer on the yard. Uh uh uh Bruce Davis was on the yard. Um so it's kind of like guys that were kind of high profile guys at one time. Um, a lot of medicals were there. Were they considered a good yard? No. It was not considered a good yard? And I I didn't know that in the beginning. Right. Um I didn't know that in the beginning, but um um I found that out. About three months in, um, about three months in, um, I start hearing like the Southsiders saying, hey, you got 30, they were telling their people, like, if you come to this yard, you got 30 days to get off this yard. So then I got a new celly. Okay, right? I got a new celly. He's a skinhead from uh uh San Pedro, and and he's like, dude, we gotta get off this fucking yard. And I'm like, what? What do you mean we gotta get off this yard? Right? He's like, yeah, we can't stay on this yard, right? So um, so we packed up all of our shit what one night, right? We uh uh before Chow. We packed up all of our shit, put it in a bag, right? Um, rolled up our mattresses, right? When we walked to Chow, me and him smashed on this dude that that uh um had a drug debt. The problem was is we both went to the hole, right? He he got trans packed somewhere else. I came right back to the same yard. Why? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 41:10

How did you feel about that?

SPEAKER_01: 41:13

I I didn't know how to feel about it, but I do know when I got back there, my my new celly that I got was a homeboy of mine from the streets. So then what? So then I stayed. You stayed? I stayed. What did he have to say about staying? He's the one that convinced me to stay. He he's the one that convinced me to stay. He's like, dude, don't even worry about it. You already put in the work, don't even trip. Right? He was there on a medical, right? And there was other good dudes on the yard. It wasn't like, you know, and and and like that wasn't uh that wasn't something that was being mandated by the whites, like, hey, you better get off the not being mandated by the whites, no, but if we want to look into history, but but there was that risk, like you might have to answer for this later.

SPEAKER_02: 42:01

Well, let's look at the facts. The facts is during that period of time, the gang leaders were in the shoes. Yeah. Pelican Bay, Cork, Grantchapee. Now I don't know how the whites function, I don't know how the Mexicans function. Um you're telling me that there was no written rule that you had to get off that yard.

SPEAKER_01: 42:21

There, there was nobody was saying uh like the word from from the Southsiders, right? Um, was you got 30 days.

SPEAKER_02: 42:31

Now, were you seeing Southsiders smash on motherfuckers?

SPEAKER_01: 42:34

Oh yeah. Yeah, 100% because they wanted off that yard. Correct. But I went right back to the same fucking yard. Correct. I mean, I think I know why. Why?

SPEAKER_02: 42:46

Because of your mom. Right. That makes sense, right? And I have heard of similar stories where the parent was a law enforcement official and their loved their son got kind of hooked up in a sense because you're kind of getting hooked up, bro. They're not putting you in the city. Well, no, that's love. Like going to that yard was was love. Was love. That's what I'm saying. They could have put your ass fucking Celepat. Yeah. Dude, imagine that's a that's a monster.

SPEAKER_01: 43:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 43:10

Dude. Yeah. So how was your stay there? I mean, were you I mean, it sounds like you were just chilling, not chilling, but I mean, not bad. Yeah, it was fine. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 43:23

You know, I I I ended up getting a job in medical. Um, you know, got that red car, got to go to night yard. Yeah. Um, yeah, it was it was all right. I got I got a tennis shoe chrono and and and a cotton blanket chrono, and uh, you know, from all working in in medical.

SPEAKER_02: 43:39

Were you partaking in drug use?

SPEAKER_01: 43:42

Yeah, whenever, yeah, you know, it uh there, you know, this is my first term. It was uh um, you know, I always knew like, dude, you don't get like like if you want to get in a wreck, that's one way to do it. Get involved in dr and drugs and um, yeah. Mostly just drinking. Maybe a little weed every now and then.

SPEAKER_02: 44:06

Any issues or tension with other races at that time?

SPEAKER_01: 44:11

Nah, I I mean there was always there was always like the possibility of tension, but that yard was a pretty soft yard. It never got I I mean I I seen people get whacked on that yard, but um as far as like racial tension, like from now you ended up at Soledad?

SPEAKER_02: 44:29

Was that after CMC?

SPEAKER_01: 44:31

Yeah, so no, after that, I after that I got out, I got a violation.

SPEAKER_02: 44:36

You went to Ironwood, you said.

SPEAKER_01: 44:38

That was during the violation. So I got out, got a violation. Um I don't know, I think I did, I think I did a straight 365 uh on the West Yard in Chino. Um got out from there, got another um term that was in Wasco on the three yard on on a yard. Then I got out from there, um, did a violation at Ironwood.

SPEAKER_02: 45:10

Now these other these other pins that you're hitting, are they a different experience than your time at CNC?

SPEAKER_01: 45:16

Totally different experience. How just more political, um, uh a lot more violence, a lot more uh gang activity. What year time frames were these? 96 to 2007.

SPEAKER_02: 45:33

Was it a structured gang activity? Was there structure to it?

SPEAKER_01: 45:40

Um which time?

SPEAKER_02: 45:41

In any of these times, or was it like a free-for-all now? I mean, you look now in 2025, it's a free-for-all.

SPEAKER_01: 45:46

Yeah, that that that's what's so interesting. That's why I started watching because um I'm like uh you know, and I know people have gotten out recently, right? Um, and and hearing their stories, it's just like it's different. I mean, it's completely different than when I was in there. But yeah, it was super structured, like like Soledad, it was militaristic, right? You didn't walk on the yard by yourself. If you uh if you bent down to tie your shoes, you had you had somebody standing in front of you keeping point. Um if if you went to go piss on the yard, right? Um you had somebody standing at your back, right? Uh um the northerners would, you know, when you came on the yard, you you were you were uh quarantined to the bleachers because until your paperwork cleared, you know, it was it was like that, you know, which is which is uh day and night from what CMC was, right? Nobody was checking paperwork, it was just like come one, come all, and that was it.

SPEAKER_02: 46:44

What about when the rule when it came to talking to correctional officers? Were you guys allowed to? Did you have to bring a shadow? Did you have to bring a shadow? To what? Did you have to bring a shadow?

SPEAKER_01: 46:56

Meaning somebody else. I mean, if you're going up to the podium and you're like whispering and shit, like, yeah, I mean that that that's suspect, right? But like, no, the uh you know, my interactions with with the correction with the uh with the COs were always, you know, mu uh I I mean some of them were just dicks. They would come in and throw your pictures on the floor and tear your shit up, but most of them were were were just that's the difference between um county jail and prison.

SPEAKER_02: 47:25

What's the difference?

SPEAKER_01: 47:26

The the the sheriffs in the county jail are just fucking dicks. I've always heard that, dude. Not just from you, from other people too. Why is that? Uh I I just think it's their mentality, right? So so in the county jail, people are just coming through, right? Correct. So they have to they have to maintain control, right? And they do. They have to maintain control and they do, right? And and it's like, don't look at me wrong, don't suck your teeth, don't like right, right? Get in line, right? They maintain maintain control. When you go to the pin, you got people that live there. Facts, right? We live there. Yep. You guys go home, we live there, right? And some of these people live there the rest of their life. Correct. Right? So there's a different mentality, right? So and a lot of these cops, they know because they've been murdered, some of them have been assaulted, some of them have, you know, whatever, right? And um, and they know, like, dude, this is just a job. You've already been convicted of your crime, you're here, you're a fucking, you know what I mean? Uh uh some of you know, you know, you'd rap with some of them. Right, right. Eckerson, what's going on? What's it, you know, what's happening, you know, uh uh a lot of the times I would get uh jobs with you know porter jobs or jobs medical, and the cops were cool. I hear what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02: 48:52

Um yeah, the fact that COs know that those inmates are not going anywhere anytime soon is not in your best interest you start acting a fool.

SPEAKER_01: 49:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 49:01

Right?

SPEAKER_01: 49:02

Some of them still did. I I mean, yeah, so some of them. I I I mean, well, we had this guy one time that was just like he was a fucking tyrant. He would come in. Tyrant? Yeah, he would he would come in and you know, everybody's making uh making lines for like you know, uh uh to hang their clothes or to make a privacy curtain in their cells or whatever, and and he'd come in and write you up for destructing uh state property. You know, you're not supposed to have anything on your walls. He would take your pictures off your walls and throw them in the toilet. You're like, damn, right? So he ended up getting got by. He did end up getting got I was just about to ask you that question, too, man. Yeah, finally a lifer took off on him.

SPEAKER_02: 49:49

Necessary evils. Do you believe that was a necessary evil? To what, to get him? Yeah. Yeah. In the in the prison setting. Right, because there ultimately has to be respect.

SPEAKER_01: 50:04

Yeah, I I think he had to come in and and um you know I hate to say that now because I I know a lot of uh people that are correction officers. Correct.

SPEAKER_02: 50:13

And I don't want to ever condone violence. No. Right?

SPEAKER_01: 50:16

But would you but there's no need for that? There's no need to um there's no need to come in and throw people's pictures in the toilet and right. I agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 50:29

I agree. Yeah. Um you were on a three-yard. Were there weapons, were there weapons there?

SPEAKER_01: 50:37

Oh yeah. 100%.

SPEAKER_02: 50:41

On people or stashed on the yard or something.

SPEAKER_01: 50:44

No, I mean, on people. I mean, they're they're everywhere. In the middle of the night, you would hear them sharpening their weapons. You would. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 50:54

On the concrete.

SPEAKER_01: 50:55

On the concrete.

SPEAKER_02: 50:56

What kind of thought process would go through your head when you hear weapons? I mean, Snoop Dogg says it in murder was a case.

SPEAKER_01: 51:01

Yeah, I I mean that that that's you know they're there.

SPEAKER_02: 51:04

You know they're there.

SPEAKER_01: 51:05

You know they're there.

SPEAKER_02: 51:11

Now, in my experience, the whites, and I'm not just kissing your ass, bro, because you're white. They make the best weapons in prison. Did you ever get a chance to see other weapons to compare? I mean, did you guys realize that? What do you mean? That the weapons are immaculate that the fucking whites make.

SPEAKER_01: 51:30

I know, I've seen some good ones. I I don't know where I don't know where they came from, right? I I I mean I I've had them. Right? What would be considered a good one for the public to understand? Just all steel. All steel something out uh something out of the shelves. Probably like that. I think the the biggest one I seen was like that. Sharp? Yeah, probably that thick. Oh bowl. I mean, if that goes in, you yeah, you're done. Now is the intention to kill? Maim, wound, what's the intention? If you're stabbing somebody, I mean you gotta think it's to kill somebody. Right?

SPEAKER_02: 52:12

Do inmates value life in prison, human life? I did. You did value human life? Yeah. As far as what?

SPEAKER_01: 52:22

Because it seems like I mean, either you do or you don't, right? I I mean, just because you're in prison doesn't mean that your your sensibilities are gone, that that you don't have compassion. Makes sense. Like I I seen dudes just get smashed. I mean, just like I mean nasty. Nasty. And you're thinking, dude, that's fucking I mean that's disgusting. I hear what you're saying, right? But but that that's that life.

SPEAKER_02: 52:52

I guess that's what I was asking you. That's that life. Yeah. In order for you to survive in that life, does it behoove you to kind of harden your soul and your emotions?

SPEAKER_01: 53:03

You have to. Yeah, you have to. I I I mean, it is as much as you're sad about it, then you rationalize and go, oh yeah, I I mean, he had a coming, right? Did he have it coming? You ever see motherfuckers get smashed that didn't have it coming? Sometimes. Sometimes it's the best thing that happens to somebody.

unknown: 53:25

Right?

SPEAKER_01: 53:26

Right? Sometimes it's the best thing that happens to somebody. And you're thinking to yourself, we should have whooped your ass a long time ago. Correct.

SPEAKER_02: 53:34

Oh fuck, bro. I I totally understand what you're saying. Yeah. We should have whooped your ass a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01: 53:43

I mean, I think that nowadays, like like you see people that are just like, you know, you need your fucking ass whooped. Right? You need an attitude correction. Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_02: 53:54

I believe I asked you right before we started how old you were, you said 51.

SPEAKER_01: 53:58

51, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 53:59

All right, you look young, by the way. Have you seen the generational change in in the youth?

SPEAKER_01: 54:10

Oh, 100%. Mindset. Mindset. I mean, it's just different. It's it's different. It it's uh um is it better or is it worse? It's worse. I mean it it's it depends on how you look at it though. How do you look at it? I I think it's worse. I there's a disconnect with with with with the youth. There's a disconnect because there's so I I mean, and all of us, you know, I can't live without my phone. You probably can't live without your phone, right? But these kids, that's all they ever knew. Right. You know, I I have I I have a son that's 31 years old, right? Um, and I was just talking about this the other day. He's he's always had a phone. Right? He always has his head. There's a disconnect. I I mean the the the thing that happened yesterday. You have a 31-year-old son?

SPEAKER_02: 55:03

Yeah. Did everything we just spoke about, does he know about that?

SPEAKER_01: 55:06

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 55:07

He does? Yeah. I'll fix your microphone a little bit.

SPEAKER_01: 55:10

Oh, okay. Um, yeah, uh he's great, great kid. He's a he's he's a loving kid, great, total opposite of of who I am, right? Um really compassionate, good kid. Um, doesn't hold grudges uh against me for not being there. Um he's um we don't we don't see each other a whole lot, even though he's local, right? I I do talk to him, we have a good relationship. Um, but but I I never really bonded with him because of that. Because of what? Because of being gone. So was by the time by the time I got out, he was already, you know, like in junior high or and and then he lived with his mom. And then you you know what go ahead. I didn't realize, bro. So throughout all of your incarceration, you had a son?

SPEAKER_02: 56:00

Oh yeah. I didn't realize that.

SPEAKER_01: 56:01

Yeah, he's 31 years old.

SPEAKER_02: 56:02

I didn't realize that. I'm shitty at math, bro.

SPEAKER_01: 56:04

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_02: 56:05

Me too. Prison guard.

SPEAKER_01: 56:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 56:07

So how was that, bro? Like, I mean, you were a father. Did you think about it or you didn't think about it?

SPEAKER_01: 56:13

I didn't think about it. Man. Yeah, I wasn't a good father. I was I wasn't a father.

unknown: 56:20

Damn.

SPEAKER_01: 56:20

Period. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 56:24

I'm glad that he doesn't hold a resentment towards you.

SPEAKER_01: 56:28

He's not that type of kid. I I I got blessed because um he could be that type of kid, right? But but it's not in him.

SPEAKER_02: 56:36

And he wouldn't be wrong for it either.

SPEAKER_01: 56:37

He would not be wrong for it. I I would have everything I got coming. Right. But he's just not that kid, right? He tells me he loves me, and uh, we don't talk a whole lot, but um, yeah, he's a good kid.

SPEAKER_02: 56:49

So how old was your son when you became present in his life or when you got introduced to his life for for for good, for staying?

SPEAKER_01: 56:58

2007.

unknown: 56:59

Damn, dude.

SPEAKER_01: 57:00

Yeah, 2007. I remember I got out of Soledad Um and I went into uh um we'll call it a halfway house or a sober living house, right? And uh um my pro officer came and picked me up from um from Soledad, drove me to San Jose to the airport, put me on a plane. I I flew into Ontario and uh um and my pro officer there picked me up and then drove me up to uh the San Mardino Mountains. But when I got there, my son was there. Where at the airport, yeah, with my mom. And then that was the beginning of our relationship. That's good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 57:43

When did you stop with the drugs?

SPEAKER_01: 57:47

March March 9th, 2007. Was the last time I got loaded.

SPEAKER_02: 57:58

Was there any specific thing that made you stop?

SPEAKER_01: 58:03

Did you hit a bottom? Oh no, I I know well, I mean, yeah, my bottom was the last time I got busted. My bottom was the last time I got busted. I I was uh um I you know I got eaten up by the the canine and uh I was in a high speed chase. What the fuck? Yeah, not not a I let me rephrase that, not a high speed chase because it only lasted about two blocks. What happened? That the day I got red lighted in the middle of the night. I was with a homeboy of mine, we were out running amok, and um um I got red lighted and and um I was already up scounding from I was in Bakersfield. I was up scounding parole in um in Kern County, right? I was somewhere in Bakersfield, Oildale area, and um got red lighted and um and I took off, right? And and uh uh I went through the first red light, I turned left, I turned left again into an apartment building and then hit it, right? And then went all the way to the end of the up to the apartment building, and it was you know either a left or a right and a block wall. I hit the block wall. Me and my homeboy jumped out and um jumped the wall, jumped the front fence. When I hit the front fence, the fence came down, and when it came down, I blew my leg out. How it fucked your shit up? It blew it out. It was just like I I remember seeing it was like this. Your leg? Yeah, my leg was like this. So uh, so I I I managed to make it to the driveway, and there was there was a Winnebago camper or like a you know, like an RV right there. And I crawled under the RV, and uh, and and I remember dogs were barking, and I don't know where my homeboy went. He went somewhere else. Were you high? Oh yeah, yeah. And uh and I just posted up there, right? Uh, and the next thing I know, I could hear the hell. Helicopters and I could hear uh you know you know the the acceleration of the of the police cars and then I hear the dogs and I remember the dogs were the they were it they were walking right right on the sidewalk and and I held my breath. I was like and I held my breath and and they kept going. And I thought to myself, like, I might get out of this. But I remember telling myself, like, if you get out of this, that's it. You gotta be done. And then so about 20 minutes later, they're coming back. Damn. And and the dog, the dog found me. And they released him. They released him and the dog got me, and I was coming out, and they just they beat the shit out of me. They put me in the hospital. They they put me in the hospital, and uh you're white, bro.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:01

No shit.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:04

So what the the the the funny thing is, the funny thing is this is your white privilege didn't help you out. No, it did not help me out. Well, what the crazy thing is is they kept hitting me and hitting me and hitting me and telling me, right, stop resisting, stop resisting. And I'm and I'm already cuffed up, and I'm and I'm thinking to myself, that's what they do. They surround you, right? They surround you, verbally say out loud, because I'm sure at this time the neighbors are out, people are probably looking, and they're saying, stop resisting, as long as they can't see what you're doing, that gives them the that gives them the right to keep hitting you, right?

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:45

Did you figure that out all on your own?

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:47

Well, it was like uh like I'm like, dude, these guys are gonna kill me. Fuck. Yeah, these guys are gonna kill me. So um, what but the part I didn't tell you is prior to that, um I was at my homeboy's house in uh in um in Oildale, right? I was abscounding the proli-at-large team was looking for me, right? I was on the run from I I left Chino, went up to uh uh went up to Kern County, went up to uh one of my homeboys was uh staying up there. And um somehow, some way they found me, right? They found me in a back house. And uh at the time I had just got out of the hospital because I had a staph infection on my hands, I had gotten in a fight, right? But but I was a dopamine. I was just I was doing drugs and my health was probably wasn't good, and I got my fingers like blew up like this. So I would I went in the hospital and they did surgery to clean them out. And um, so so, anyways, I went uh the reason I told you that is because it's gonna come later. Um, so I went up, I went up north. Uh they somehow the PAL team found me, right? Um they took me to the Kern County jail. The Kern County jail, you know, as soon as you get there, you see medical, right?

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:12

So that I had bandages on my hands. So they're like, hey, why does this dude have bandages on his hand? What's going on? And I and I told them, Oh, I had a staph infection, I was in the hospital, right? So they're like, you got to take him to Kern Medical to get him cleared before he could come in here. So the parole agents took me to Kern Medical and they sat me in a room and it was it was packed, right? And they and they told uh they said, hey, how long is it gonna be until he could get seen? They're like, it's probably gonna be a couple hours, right? So they put me in a room. You know, I uh not in the waiting room, they took me in and back, right, and put me in in an exam room. And I was sitting, and I had dope on me, right? Um, and uh um, you know, in my waist band right here. And uh as I'm I'm sitting there, I'm like, I'm watching people walk by. I'm watching people walk by, and I'm like, and and I see somebody go in the bathroom across the hall, and I'm thinking to myself, because I almost have myself in like in jail, right? I'm like, okay, I'm I gotta sit here. So I got up and looked out the out the door. There was nobody even there, just like nurses, and so I go, so I told myself, I'm gonna go to the bathroom. So I went to the bathroom, and and and and then as I did this, I'm thinking, okay, if nobody comes and knocks on this door, as soon as I walk out of this bathroom, I'm gone. I'm still in my regular street clothes. Okay. So I bounced. You escaped. I uh yeah, basically. But there was nobody, I mean, you call it a walk away. Where did he go? Right. I don't know where the fuck they went. Maybe get a soda? I don't know where they were. But but the I I was the I don't know where they went. But but I got out of there. I went into some uh neighborhood uh just adjacent from the hospital, right? Um I asked these dudes if I could use their phone and they told me to fuck off. And I right so so I went to um I went to uh a thrift store, right? And I changed my shirt. I asked the dude if I could change my shirt, and he let me. And then uh and then I waved down a uh a cab and I took it back to my homeboy's house. Okay. And and and then and then uh and then that's where where it ended, right there. And then and then a few days later, that's where when I got uh red lighted. So the cops already knew by the time they had identified me, right, that I was a runner. Right? So so so then they throw, so then fast forward back to they pulled me out, the dog got me, right? They threw me in the car, right? And well, first they were gonna be like, the ambulance came and they were like, oh, we'll take them. And the cop said, no, we're gonna take him. He's a runner. I I remember them saying that, right? He's a runner, right? So so they put me in the car, and I always remember this. Uh, they were I was they were taking me to the hospital, and uh, and I was I I was like, I was beat up and I was like moaning. And the cop told his partner, hey, pull over, right? Pull over. And so they pulled over and he opened the back door and he goes, If I hear your fucking voice one more time, I'm gonna give you something to cry about, right? And he slammed the door, and then we went to the hospital. And then I ended up in the Kern County jail. Holy shit, dude. And then so during that time, and and then granted, I'm coming down off of heroin and speed and all this shit all at the same time. And I'm telling myself, I'm done. Like, that's it. You know, I was uh, you know, I was already a two-striker. I'm like, that's it. I'm I'm this is it for me. I'm done. Right. And then the uh um, and then um as soon as I got my first phone call, I called my mom and I told her, hey, that's it. And she goes, I know. Right. So then um then like the they put me in a medical uh a medical unit the first time I went to uh to medical, right? Because I had a bunch of like wounds on me from the dog bite, right? And uh the the doctor from the uh at at uh at uh Kern County Jail gave me this form if I wanted to um file a complaint on the officers, and I told them no. I was like, no, I'm good.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:50

Real quick, man, this is fucking nuts, dude. As you're under the vehicle and the dogs are around, did you have any like and any anticipation that you were about to get your ass fucking kicked?

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:02

I I didn't know what was I I knew the dog was gonna get me. So you knew the dog was gonna get you. Well, well, well, I I mean, you know, as quick as they say, come out, or we're gonna release the dog. The dog's already on you. Right, the dog's already on you.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:15

But did you did you re did you even realize they were gonna beat your ass? With that in the cards in your head?

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:21

No. So once I just thought I was gonna crawl out and they were gonna grab me and handcuff me, and then that would be it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:33

At what point once the beating started, did you realize, oh man, this is about to fucking suck? I'm about to go. Instantly.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:43

Instantly, instantly they started hitting me with batons. With batons? Oh yeah. I mean, uh from here to my back, I had I had welts and bruises all right, uh, all the way, all the way up my legs, all the way to my back. Were you feeling each blow? Or did you become numb in the city? I literally thought, I literally thought, like, these guys are gonna kill me because I was cuffed up. Oh, fuck, dude. Yeah, and and dog bitten, and my legs blown out. And your fingers were fucked up still since uh staff? Yeah. And and and and then so they take me to the to jail, and and I'm coming off of heroin.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:23

And now when the officer pulled over and opened the door and said, uh, if you I hear your ass one more time, I'm gonna give you something to cry about. Did you believe him?

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:31

Oh, 100%. He was he was like he was steroided out, or he was huge, big ass white boy, right? He would have pulled me out of that car and put hands on me.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:44

Wow. Yeah, that's fucking intense, dude. Yeah, that's intense, man. I mean, because you know, there's similar stories out there, and I'm all about, you know, putting out unfiltered fucking information and stories. That's fucking wild, dude. What county did this transpire in? Kern County. Fuck. And they didn't charge you with uh they did they didn't charge you with like did they charge you with like resisting or or or battery on a cop or anything like that?

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:17

Everything got dropped other than what I uh what I was uh running for um from down south, which was sales. Right? That was the only and that's why I ended up with 32 months at 80%. Fuck, dude. But but I I thought for sure because of the uh the series of events, right? Right, um, and my buddy that was with me, he he just ended up just getting a violation. Uh I remember his ass beat too? No, no. Why probably because they're all on me. I don't know. Maybe he did. Did you tell him you got your ass beat? Oh yeah, he knew. Yeah, he knew because we seen each other in arraignment. Yeah, we seen each other in arraignment, and it was funny because um um we went to arraignment and and like if you do this enough, you know, like okay, they they always you go to court, right? And then uh they always pull arraignments out early. Like, you know, the arraignments because you just go in there guilty, not guilty, whatever. Okay, and and then and then you go back and then you get the early bus. Okay, right? You get the early bus back to the county, right? So they call, they start, you know, you know, the the cop will come and he'll start yelling, you know, name, hey Bravo, Eckerson, right? You start walking up there like, oh fuck, dude, they filed on me, right?

SPEAKER_02: 1:11:44

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:44

Right? I'm going to you're at the courthouse, right? You're at the courthouse and uh you're waiting to go to court, right? Um and then and then we didn't get called out. And then they came back like about 10 o'clock, called more people out, right? Then it's lunchtime. And I told my homeboy, I told him, dude, they didn't file on us. He goes, dude, they filed on us. They filed. I was like, bro, I'm telling you, that they would have called us out already.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:14

Did they file or they did not file?

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:15

They didn't file on us.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:17

But sometimes I think things work out that way. I'm thinking maybe the ass beaten that you got. No, that that's exactly why.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:24

That's 100% why. Correct. That's 100% why.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:29

Oh, fuck. Let me, since I'm on, since I'm on the it's on the tip of my tongue, right? The justice system, the strong arm of the law, and street politics are a very funny, fine line, right? Yeah. Looking back in hindsight, looking back now, would you have rather gotten filed on and not gotten an ass beaten? No, because I would have been in there still. No, well, my question is, would you have rather gotten filed on and not gotten an ass beaten, or gotten a nast beaten and not gotten filed on?

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:58

Say that again. If if they would have filed on me without an ass beating. Would you have preferred that? No, because if they would have filed on me, that would have been three strikes. So they did you a solid. If they would have filed on me, that that was it. That was it. Because I would have had all those charges. I would have had.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:21

But do you understand what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:23

I'm a firm believer that they did not fucking file on you because they utilized excessive use of force on you. Oh, that's 100% why they did it. Right? So it was a blessing in disguise. Well, it was by design.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:35

Yeah, it was It was by design.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:37

They took justice into their own hands and fucking They didn't do it intentionally, like, hey, we're gonna beat this dude's ass because Correct. Right? But but it was by his design. No, but let me ask, let's by God's design.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:50

Let me let you in on a little secret, right? As a former correctional officer, during incidents, yeah, if things get out of hand or go too far, in your you guys, the the the mentality can be like, oh fuck, we fucked up. We went we took it too far. Let's fix it on the back end, meaning a kind of make this go away.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:16

Does that make sense to you? Yeah. I think that's that's exactly what happened to you. Yeah, I I don't know what the behind the scenes was, but probably that's it behind the scenes. So in the military, I was in the military. Back then they would beat your fucking ass. Yeah. As opposed to write you a counseling statement and put it in your file and fuck your whole career off forever. So a lot of people deserve, I mean, a lot of people preferred the ass beating. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:39

Yeah, and I in hindsight, I would get dog, dog bitten and beat up and leg blown out and all over again, right? Because here I am now. Well, what the hell would have happened if you would have got struck out 20 years maybe to life? Well, I I mean that what that was 2000 something, right? So you were on that fine line, dude. Yeah, so so yeah, I I mean when I first got busted, that was the very beginning of three strikes, and and then uh and then that time, the early 2000s, was in the middle of two strikes.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:11

Are you a believer are you are you a believer in faith?

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:15

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:16

Do you believe maybe that was God's intervention?

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:19

No, that's why I said it was his design. Correct. It was God's design.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:23

Correct.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:24

Yeah, I I I mean I I prayed to God right then and there, like you know, if if you ever don't know who God is, you know, every single one of us, and you've probably had uh occasions, you know, if you when you're deployed or whatever, like multiple, right? Well, where you're telling yourself, like, even if you're not a Christian, like you're telling yourself, God, if you're real, you're gonna get me through this. Like, or whoever it is you're talking to, right? Everyone has that moment in life where they're like, if you just get me out of this, I'll be the best person ever. Like, I'll I like I'll do whatever, right? That's God. That that's who God is, right?

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:05

Well, those are foxhole prayers, as they call them. Yeah, I mean like right in jail. I mean, I but I believe what you endured was a spiritual awakening.

unknown: 1:16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:14

I mean, I I've I've I've said that many times. What's that? You said what? You know, God, if you get me out of this, yeah, yeah. They call it what they call it jailhouse prayers. Yeah, yeah, but but at that point right there, I was just so done. I was like, you know, even if I I like I remember telling myself, even if I do the rest of my life in here, I'm not gonna serve what I've been uh right. It's like like I I'm gonna make a change.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:39

And I did. You probably towards that tail end of your addiction were not even enjoying getting high anymore. Probably.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:45

No, it was just maintenance. You're just like you weren't even getting high anymore. Like I was just, you know, before I'd even lay down my head at night, right? I would uh you know, if I did, I would have to have a wake up. Meaning, like I'd, you know, and I was selling slinging dope anyway, most of the time, but but even if I wasn't, right, prior to that, I would have to have a wake up. Meaning I would have to like I'm not going to sleep until you know I I got I know when I wake up, I got dope.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:18

I'm not a doctor, but I mean basically I best I I I can only assume there are three ways to um ingest uh methamphetamies, uh snorting it, smoking it, and injecting it. What is the most effective to get the highest slamming it? Slamming it, like it's just straight going straight to the main vein. Yeah, least waste Is there a difference in high between slamming it? 100%. There is.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:48

Yeah, what is the difference? It it's it's I mean it's it's everything. It's it's um it's instant. Instant. I mean you could feel it. You it comes up in your throat, you cough like it, right? I I mean, yeah, you could taste it from slamming, yeah. Fuck 100%.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:10

When you walk these streets of downtown San Diego and you see the homeless and you see the dope, what kind of feelings do they arise in you? Nothing? No empathy for them?

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:22

No, I've I I mean, yeah, yeah, you know, quite honestly, no. I I I mean, uh um I I work in downtown LA a lot. You do? Um in my career. Um and uh, you know, skid row, and everybody down there is a dope fiend. Correct, right? Everybody down there is a dope fiend. And they're able-bodied men, women, right, who could, you know, uh 90%, 99% of the mental illness is drug-related mental illness, right? So I I don't have I I mean but plus like to me, my my stance was always like other than like begging for shit, you know, go fucking do a crime or something. Do a crime, yeah. I I it it seems silly to just I I don't know. It it's uh um, you know, go get a hustle. Go get a hustle, go sling dope, go do something. Why are you living on the streets? Go go get a hustle and get a hotel room. It's very interesting to hear that perspective from you from that perspective. It's very interesting. And then now as a as a citizen who pays taxes and and is you know has turned my life around um to see uh the homeless and you know it's a choice. It's a choice to be homeless? Yeah, it's a choice. I I'm not saying across the board there's always the exception to the rule, but but but you know, uh um, you know how many programs there are downtown San Diego? I mean I think it's uh throughout the country, throughout the country, there's programs for homelessness and for people to get into uh treatment, right? But they don't want the treatment, and the reason they don't want the treatment is because there's rules. True, true, right? There's rules, right? Uh um I I could go like where where I live, everyone lives down by the riverbed, right? There's encampments everywhere, right? But uh uh, and now because uh, you know, the the Supreme Court ruling, I forget what it is, they're they're allowed to uh um to remove them now, right? But they have to offer them help first, right? But they refuse it. They refuse the help because they know if they go into a treatment facility, right, they're gonna have to be in by 10 o'clock, they're probably gonna have to participate in a 12-step program of some sort, piss test, whatever. Like, why would you give up your freedom to go do that? Right. There might be there's probably some people who take it and like are just down on their luck, right? But that's few and far between. So, so that uh like so that's where my sympathies weigh.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:10

Do you when you and I were both from SoCal? Do you believe Governor Gavin Newsom has done a good job of preventing homelessness here in the state? No.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:26

No.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:27

He's facilitated it. Do you believe he could have done a better job?

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:31

Yeah. I I don't know if you could fit I I mean, I don't know if anybody could fix it, right? I I don't here's what I do know, right? Here's what I do know is um um there there's there's a lot of ordinances, there's a lot of like uh city ordinances for trash and and defecating on the sidewalk, but like like but but you you know what I mean? Like if me and you're driving down the street and I throw the fucking uh trash out the window, mean you're getting a ticket, bro. You sound like my dad, bro, because it's the same shit. Mean you're gonna get a ticket. Facts, right? We're gonna get a ticket. And you know why we're gonna get a ticket? I don't know why. Because we have the money to pay for it, right? Right? Well, they're not uh they're not gonna give these homeless people a ticket because they'll never see the money. Taking a shit in the middle of the sidewalk. Yeah, I I don't want my kids seeing that. You don't want your daughter seeing that. So it's ridiculous. So, what would be a solution? Citing them anyways? Yeah, citing them anyways, right? And then and then uh uh they fail to pay, right? And then jail. And then escalation of it's just loaded up, right? Penalties. I remember when I was uh uh in the county jail, um, there was every time I would go to the county jail, I'd see the same guy, right? And and everybody knew who he was. His name was Stan, right? And he was an old guy and he's a homeless guy. And anytime during the winter, he would go and commit a crime so he could go to jail. Yeah, I bet the motherfucker was living like a king in there. Yeah, and the cops loved him. They loved him? The cops loved him. He was he was an you know old dude, and and that they knew why he was here, he was harmless, he didn't hurt anybody. He was just like, right, and you would see that. Yeah, you uh but but now it's just so rampant, right? And it's like um yeah, it's just it's a mess. I don't know if you could fix it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:25

Do you believe there is a current divide American the pe uh again amongst the American people in 2025? Is there a divide? Yes. Oh, there's a clear divide, which between who? Uh politically. Like it's a political divide. What are we talking about? Republicans.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:43

Conservatives and and and uh and uh uh you know liberals. Liberals, right? There's a divide, there needs to not be a divide. Right?

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:55

Uh how can we not let there be a divide from your perspective? I mean, what are some simple shit that you're seeing, like, oh, that's fucking wrong? Or this needs to change?

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:06

Well, it's it's it it's back again, it's back to that disconnect with the youth, right? Right. It's uh uh and even myself and and probably yourself, right? We get so uh desensitized and um and disconnected, right? You see violence all the time, like we just witnessed it yesterday, or or whenever that was. Yeah, you know, you're actually seeing people be assassinated. You know, yeah, uh I heard you say you used to watch the cartel, right? Can't do it. You you become desensitized to that, right? You just look at it, you look at it, and it's just like it becomes ordinary, right? Um, me and you are talking face to face right now, and and um um but but these kids and you know, everybody, you know, it's so easy to it's so it's so easy to oppose somebody online, right? Right. Oh, you're an idiot, like or whatever. It's so easy to oppose somebody um uh rather than have a conversation with them. So there's that disconnect.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:06

I like what you just said, man. Me and you are talking face to face, looking each other in the eyes, respecting each other, and I believe that lacks, that lacks in generation. They don't even know how to do it. I don't know if they get the feel out of their skin or they're getting anxiety. I don't know what the fuck is going on with the youngsters.

SPEAKER_01: 1:25:24

Yeah, it's I I don't know, and I don't know how you fix it. I I don't know how you fix it, but somehow, some way, like uh uh we gotta come back to the middle, right? Right, respect. Yeah, I I love people who are politically opposed uh uh from me, you know, that that think different than me, right? Because they challenge my thoughts. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. No, it's no, it makes you grow. Correct. I learned that in prison. What did you learn? I I learned that in prison that that that uh uh um you know that there's opposing thoughts, there's opposing belief systems that that it challenges me to think differently. Facts. Right? It it challenges me to think differently, right? And and and and if if you lose that ability to to uh to challenge your thoughts and you just you draw a line in the sand, right, that you're unwilling to cross given new facts. Right. Right? If given new facts, right, or or you let your guard down for a second and listen to what somebody has to say, and and and you come to the determine the determination that like hey, that kind of makes sense, right? Maybe I'm willing to to to to to see it your way.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:47

I just told my daughter that this morning. I said, baby, if you're right, stand up for when you're right. If you are wrong and somebody corrects you, acknowledge that and address it. Thank you. I didn't realize that I was wrong. But it's such a simple fucking concept, bro. It's so simple. Why are they why are they destroying this? It's a simple concept. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27:07

I mean, we're all guilty of it at some point, right? Yeah, but not to this fucking degree. No, but but but you really kind of always gotta check yourself. Yeah, work uh maintenance work. Yeah, you always gotta check yourself. You always gotta humble, you always gotta uh um and you know, you know, being in recovery, right? You learn uh you learn that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:28

Well, you learn the program, you learn the steps, correct. But it seems like these yeah, these this generation is hell in a handbasket, chaos where we can't even reel them in. I mean, celebrating the death of of somebody getting shot in the throat. It's disgusting.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27:41

It's evil, it's disgusting, it's evil. Regardless of where you lay on the uh political side of the spectrum, right? To see that happen to a human being, right? And then, you know, the first thing, because I got it, sons that that are that age. Oh shit. I didn't even think about that, dude. Yeah. 31 years old. That's how all my sons are, right? Right. Um, so so I'm thinking to myself, you know, the first thing I thought when that happened? What's that? Well, well, first I thought, I thought, did his mom just see that?

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:15

Fuck, dude. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:16

Did his did his mom just see this? Because he's a political figure. Like that was a big event. That was that was the first event of a 12 of uh 12. I saw it within three minutes of it happening. I want to unsee it. Correct. I want to unsee it, but but to think that that's the first thing I thought of. And maybe that's because Well, I mean, his mom has a cell phone, his mom has emailed. Right and and and that that's probably why they didn't uh um um you know announce that he was dead right away. Correct. Because they had to make an official But it was obvious that he was dead right away. It was obvious, right? It was obvious, and then I thought, wasn't his wife and kids there? Were they? My understanding is they were. No way. Right. My understanding is they were so so then I'm thinking of her. I'm thinking, because I know how my wife is that uh uh and how a mom is, right? Females is gonna want to go to her babies and grab her babies, right? But at the same time, she's a wife, she wants to run to her husband, right now. She like, what does she do? I I'm on this is all going through my head. I'm thinking, like, is this real life, dude? Did this did this really just happen? And and to not have compassion, that a human being just lost his life. I and if you ever like I'd watch his videos all the time. Me too. Right? I'd watch his videos all the time, and and he always brought it back to God. He he and he always brought it back to God, right? And and he believed what he believed, and he would have really well. Rehearsed arguments, right? And every now and then he would get somebody who would come up and and oppose his his thoughts, right, with a really good argument. And you could look them up for yourself, right? Anybody out there can could look them uh up for theirself, right? When when he when somebody had a good argument, he goes, that's a really good argument, right? And and and and he would respect their view, right? And that's what that's all about, right? And and and to silence that is disgusting. Yeah, it's it's disgusting.

SPEAKER_02: 1:30:40

What do you think his death is well before I ask that, is that one of the most wildest events in your lifetime that you witnessed? Other than 9-11? Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:30:53

Yeah, uh other than 9-11, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:30:55

Because it was profound, dude. It was fucking huge.

SPEAKER_01: 1:30:58

Yeah, this is this is right up there with that, right? Because it it's just uh um, you know, even people, even people that didn't really weren't really aware of who Charlie Kirk was, right, right, um, you know, now they're looking to see who he was.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:13

Right. So the question I was gonna ask you right now is there's the people that oppose Charlie Kirk say that he was a Zionist, a racist, this and that. Was that true?

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:23

I mean, everybody can make their own uh uh assessment and their own judgment. Um, but but I think if you're being honest, right, and and you're really looking at who that man was and you look and you go through the video, because everything he's uh ever said is on videotape, right? If if you just look at it, make your own assessment. And I think you'll come to the conclusion that he was a good man, correct, right? Now now, did he have uh was he very um um you know hard on his positions when it came to abortion and these other things, right? That is just such like nobody's ever gonna come to agreement on on abortion, right? Or or whatever these political views are, right? Yeah. Um, but that's okay. Right? Uh uh, but he always made a good argument about it, and and it's like I I don't know how you don't come to the conclusion that he was just a good man.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:20

I believe everything is okay. Uh what was not as okay as shooting somebody in the fucking throat in the public because you don't agree with somebody.

SPEAKER_01: 1:32:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:29

But that's where we're at in 2025. Yeah. Do you foresee the world getting better or worse?

SPEAKER_01: 1:32:35

I I you know, I I have hope that um that this will bring people together. I don't know if you heard the uh uh the governor of Utah when he came out. If you get a chance, listen to it. Let listen to listen to what he said. It was it was kind of it was it was um uniting. It was it was uniting. Yeah, you know, I uh uh basically um I don't know. I think you know, like 9-11, people got united. Right. Right? People got united. Um now there's always gonna be there's always gonna be those naysayers out there that are just no matter what you do, they're gonna just the the they're gonna oppose it or whatever. But somehow, somehow, you know, our politicians gotta come back to the middle.

SPEAKER_02: 1:33:23

I don't fucking see that happening, dude. I don't see it happening either, bro.

SPEAKER_01: 1:33:27

But but but if you listen to what that governor said, right he goes, he goes, he's meeting with uh his some of his democratic adversaries and and the Republicans, and right, and they're getting together, right? They're gonna get together and they're gonna talk about how to move forward.

SPEAKER_02: 1:33:45

You know, there's a lot of evil in power, a lot of evil people in power. I mean, they're like fucking snakes, if you ask me. And then I reflect back to Rome, right? Because everything is history, everything repeats itself. Rome, Rome fell because of corrupt politics.

SPEAKER_01: 1:34:00

Yeah, so who who knows? We'll see what happens. But I I mean, I I I have I have hope and faith that um I I see a lot of people, um I hear God a lot now. Hey, dude, me too, and I'm loving it. A lot, dude. I I like more, and it's probably because I'm more into my uh my my faith than I've ever been. Facts. Um you know it's kind of like when you go buy a new car, right? You go buy a new, you got a Mercedes, right? You start seeing everybody. You said, well, I didn't tell them what kind. All right, right. Um you start seeing everybody with that car. No, yes. You know right? Oh yeah, you go you go by a new uh uh uh uh uh Ford uh uh you know Ford truck, cyber truck, cyber truck, and you start noticing cyber trucks everywhere, right? So when you become a Christian, you start hearing God everywhere.

SPEAKER_02: 1:34:57

What's funny is that if you look at the past, God was taken out of the classroom, God was taken, right? God we got to a country of removing God from our lives and we saw the repercussions. Now God is re-entering our society, and I and I feel it's truly gonna get better. Yeah. Um, which is all part of God's plan.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:35:20

But you're right, dude. More people are speak are speaking out, more people are being the voices, more people are spreading the good word, more people are practicing faith. And bro, there's nothing wrong with that. Even if you're a non-believer, there's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35:37

No, because it's the concept of uh of family and unity and and right uh love. Yeah, like I don't get into, you know, I I I've gone through all sorts of different levels with my faith, right? Correct. I'm with it, I'm not with it, you know. Plus going when you're in prison too, it's like, you know, we could talk about that, but it's like, you know, it it's you know, I I've gone uh you know up and down with my like I'm not with it, I'm with it, but um during that process, right? It's just uh uh I I lost my train of thought where I was going with it, but yeah, it it's it it's a process.

SPEAKER_02: 1:36:17

Damn, dude. So uh you have sobriety now. What does like the future look for you?

SPEAKER_01: 1:36:24

Future's uh the future's bright for me. Uh um yeah, I've I I've um been since 2007 since I've been out, and and since then I've um, you know, when I paroled, I went into uh a halfway house, basically a sober living house. It was through the penitentiary, right? I I was in a drug program um the last three months of my of my sentence, right? And part of that, uh if you successfully completed it, uh they had houses in your county of commitment that you could go to, right? So they had one that was in um in Running Springs, kind of Big Bear area.

SPEAKER_02: 1:37:05

I don't know if you're familiar with the area, but Big Bear, Big Bear's high is up there or down low?

SPEAKER_01: 1:37:10

No, but Big Bear's, you know, you know where Big Bear Big Bear the Big Bear. Well, I know it's Big Bear, but you actually have to go up that mountain. Yeah. Yeah, that that that's where the uh that's where the home was at.

SPEAKER_02: 1:37:21

They had they had a home. I had no idea they had a home up there. Yeah, I thought it was all fucking cabins and vacation spots.

SPEAKER_01: 1:37:27

Yeah, that's what it was. That's uh in the town of Running Springs. They had a they had a house.

SPEAKER_02: 1:37:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:37:32

They had a house there.

SPEAKER_02: 1:37:34

What a beautiful location.

SPEAKER_01: 1:37:35

Well, that's why I went there.

SPEAKER_02: 1:37:36

It's like a it's like a retreat.

SPEAKER_01: 1:37:38

Yeah, that there was, I mean, there were several of them. There was some down in Ontario. There was some, you know, they don't have the same program now. Right. Um, but but then they did. And uh, you know, if as long as it was in the county of your commitment, which mine was uh San Morendino, right? Or or the not the county of commitment, the county uh that you're proling to. Right. Right. Um, so um, you know, and they had pictures on the on the wall, like, oh, you could choose this one or that one. Like, right. So I'm like, dude, I'm going there. I'm going that one. So it happened to be in Running Springs. I got I got there. Um you're pretty much uh quarantined to the house for 90 days. You know, uh there's like you have to do like conflict resolution and 12-step programs and all this stuff. And after 90 days, then you could go get a job. Where? Anywhere. So what I did is uh, you know, there's a little uh mountain town community right there, um, you know, and we would always walk down to the store and get like uh, you know, get drinks or whatever. Um, and then we'd start talking, you know, making friends with the local people. And uh there was this girl at the um at the video store uh were like because it was still winter, right? Yeah. It was like January, February, I think it was early March and was still winter, it was still snowing up there. And uh and we had and a lot of people were shoveling snow off people's porches and stuff, right? Doing like snow removal. Like guys would go out with their shovels and make 50 bucks. So we asked a girl at the store and she goes, Go to Snow Valley Mountain Resort and ask for Bonnie, and she'll hire you guys for lift ops. Uh, have you ever been to Yes, yes, yes. She'll hire you guys for lift ops. So we hitchhiked seven miles up the road to Snow Valley, went up upstairs to the office, asked to talk to Bonnie, and we told her our situation. It was me and another guy's in the house with, and she hired us on the spot. Cool. She hired us on the spot. So uh uh um from that, right, when I was working there, um, I met um, you know, I'd never been on a mountain before, never snowboarded, never done nothing, right? So then or then uh um I got a board off somebody and on my break I would go and ride the lifts. Snowboard? Yeah, and I taught myself how to snowboard. You taught yourself how I taught myself how to snowboard in that last month of the season, right? And then I seen these guys come through that were that had red vest on with crosses on them. Okay right? And I was like, hey, what do you guys do? And they're like, uh, oh, we're um we're um we're ski patrol. Well, how do you do that? Oh, you gotta have an EMT or go get your OEC or uh outside emergency care. Well, well, how do I do that? They're like, oh, you probably would have to volunteer first. Well, well, how do you volunteer? Right. Oh, you gotta go talk to Donna. So I went over and talked to Donna. Hey, how do I volunteer for the patrol? And there's these other guys in blue jackets, they they they were uh mountain host. And and uh she goes, Oh, well, the season's almost over, but get at me next season and we'll talk, right? So I stayed in the home uh voluntarily because it it only lasted like 180 days, like six months. And then you could then you could choose to stay there if you wanted. But what I ended up doing was um my when when I met uh Bonnie, who was my boss at Snow Valley, she goes, Hey, during the off season, why don't you come work for my husband doing construction? So I said, Okay. So I ended up getting an apartment up there, not an apartment, like a little cabin. And I was on um, I was on uh um high control parole at the time, right? And the my my uh my PO would come and see me every week, make me piss every week. She'd come up to the mountain, see me. Um and so I ended up staying up there working uh in construction, uh, and he was a fireman, uh, but he had a construction business. And then the next season, right, but well, halfway through the summer, I get a phone call. They're like, hey, this is uh uh Dennis Robertson uh with uh Snow Valley Mountain Patrol. I see that uh you want to volunteer as a host. And I go, Yeah. And then so I continued work in construction, but during the winter, right, I volunteered as a mountain host, and then I got a free lift ticket, and right, so I did that. And then and then that year, um I was working with the patrol, and I go, hey, how do I become a a a patroller? And they're like, You gotta go get your EMT. But so I went and got my EMT. You did? Yeah. How did that happen? I I took a class. Wow, dude. That's awesome. Yeah, I took a class, and then and then uh and then the next season, I was a candidate. For for patrol. So I had to go through my OEC class, do all my medicals, right, do all my uh, you know, my practicals, all the book work, right? And then and then you go on the mountain, and your first year you're a candidate, right? So so you don't have your bones yet. They call them your bones, your cross, right? And and then you pretty much just shadow uh um uh patrollers and go on calls and uh um um do your toboggan training and and you do all that, and then at the end of the year, you get awarded your bones. And then so Did you? Yeah, and then so for the next 15 years I patrolled.

SPEAKER_02: 1:43:26

No way, dude. Yeah, what did that consist of?

SPEAKER_01: 1:43:28

That consisted of of responding to injured or or lost guest on the hill. Uh um broken bones?

SPEAKER_02: 1:43:37

What were some of the injuries that you guys were seeing?

SPEAKER_01: 1:43:40

Mostly broken bones. Um, I I mean, it's uh with her head trauma. Uh, we had a girl fall off the lift. No way. Um, I I mean, you name it. Uh uh you know, uh uh missloads, like uh uh this little kid, he he jumped off the lift, uh uh Tib fib, both boot boot top uh fractures on both of his uh legs. Did you feel proud of your accomplishment? Oh, 100%. And that this was so so this was the beginning of change for me. This was the beginning of uh like I don't even know what to call it, right? I somehow, some way became a part of a patrol, right? Like, and a lot of these guys are either really young kids who are be trying to become paramedics or firemen, or a lot of them are are ex-firemen or ex uh ex-police, right? That that they have emts and they're skiers or snowmotors, and right, and so so they have no idea. The the reason I got in there is because Donna, uh I mean, uh Bonnie, Donna, who was the patrol director at the time, called Bonnie, who was my boss, and goes, Hey, what's up with this Jason kid? Right? It's uh uh uh he wants to be a volunteer and then uh now he's interested in becoming a patroller. Oh, you'll love him. She never told her Bonnie knew my story. I go, hey, I just got all the pin, da da da, right? And uh uh never told her anything. So I just slipped right in there. Would that have prevented you from getting in the maybe a lot like dude? I hid this, I hid this for so many years, right? I a lot like like because the people now now once you become a patroller, you get assigned to a team. Okay. There's teams one, two, and three. So my team, I was team three, and all my guys that I was with were uh the one one of them I still talk to to this day. In fact, we're gonna go uh recertify here on the 20s on the 28th. Um, he's an L LA county investigator, right? In fact, he wrote me letters uh for my um uh certificate of rehabilitation that I got. Um but um yeah, you get assigned to the team, right? And these are all like these are people that are outside of my realm of people that I'm used to being around, right? So, so like I made it a point to never like, you know, when in Rome do as the Romans, right?

SPEAKER_02: 1:46:11

But you're a perfect example of your past does not define who you are.

SPEAKER_01: 1:46:16

So, so so when I got out, you know, I went straight into the program. Like I was doing NA and this and that, but but and then I went from NA to AA because I was sick of the war stories and shit like this, right? And then um I just you know, I knew in the pen, right? I what once I made that that decision, I started journaling and doing like positive affirmations and writing down words and writing down scripture and writing down uh goals, like the first year I'm gonna do this, the second year I'm gonna do this, the third year, and I wrote it down every single day. And I still have some of those journals, right? Um, and and and and I I made it happen, right? And and uh um when when you get out and you go into these programs, right? I started disassociating myself with like these guys would get out, and I still know people that are in the program today, right, and and it served them well, and they're amazing human beings, right? And they're productive citizens, and they're the some of the best people I know, right? Um, it just wasn't my way, right? And but but I I still have that foundation in me, right? Because I've done through a lot of 12-step programs, and that foundation is still there, but but I I just I don't associate with uh with the the war stories and this and that. Like I don't want to be defined as that. Right. I want that to be an afterthought.

SPEAKER_02: 1:47:42

It sounds to me like you were having a great time, man, because that seems like a good paying job, and it probably came with benefits.

SPEAKER_01: 1:47:49

Yeah, it came with so so I've never I've never paid for a a day of skiing in my life, and and and and my family, right? And and my family. Um which I would imagine would add up, uh like be expensive if you had to pay out a pocket. 100%. And and here's here's in the beginning of the year, you know, we're the first on the mountain. Dude. The last off, right? Awesome, bro. First tracks, right? And and and when you're riding up that that lift in the morning and you're looking in the distance and you're just it's beautiful. Sun, the sun, and yeah, there's no way that you can't be grateful for what you have, right? And then the first time you get to go on a call and help somebody, yeah, selfless service, right? I get to help, I'm helping people, right? Like I like people need me. I'm the only one that could get them down off this hill. Dude, I'm the only one with the skills to get them, not only treat them medically, but but transport them in a toboggan down the hill. Was that Chris Dorner up there? Were you up there during that time? Yeah. Were you up there during that time? No, I I was patrolling at that time, but that was Big Bear. That was uh uh when he came up that mountain, he came up the back end of. But yeah, um, yeah, uh um, so every, you know, and so every time I got to help somebody, I'm I I told myself, like, and I'm always searching to help people. Like I like if I see like a car pulled, like flipped over on the freeway, like I I'm there. Yeah, right? Because I'm looking at it like that's one check. Like every bad thing I've ever did to hurt somebody, living amends. Like, I feel like it's making my amends. Living amends. Right? Yeah, I feel like it's making amends. And and and that's and to give back feels so good, bro. Oh, it's priceless. It feels so good just to give back to somebody.

SPEAKER_02: 1:49:46

Dude, I thought, man, I thought by inviting you on the show, we were gonna talk about like prison and stuff, but this story was so much more, bro. Your testimony. And the whole goal is so that other people in similar positions that you were once in can realize, hey man, there's hope at the end of that tunnel. That darkness.

SPEAKER_01: 1:50:02

Well, and that's not even it. Uh uh, so the opportunities that arose from that, um, you you know, you know, now I work for an engineering firm. I work for an engineering firm, and uh um um when I first got out, I never thought I was gonna get a good job, right? I was working construction, like I told you. And uh um a buddy of mine, um, I went on unemployment. I was working I was doing construction, I went on unemployment, and a buddy of mine who's a building inspector, right? There's this thing in the building code, it's called special inspections, and um, you know, it covers like welding, bolting, uh uh masonry, uh, soils, fire stopping, right? Structural special inspections. It's written in the code, right? And uh my buddy was one of these inspectors, and he told me, he's like, dude, go down to the school and take this class because I was on unemployment. I was like, dude, I gotta find a job, right? And he's like, and be an independent contractor. Nobody's checking records, nobody's doing anything, right? Yeah, nobody's doing any of that. I was like, Yeah, I don't know, dude. I'm not a like a school guy. I was never good in school. I got my GD in prison, yeah, right? I'm I'm not like he's all dude, I'm just telling you, just do it, I'll help you, right? So I said, uh, so at the time I my dad had this old boat in the um in the garage, right? And he goes, hey, you want this boat? It was it was it was a nice, it was a decent boat. It was like an 18-foot sea swirl, inboard, outboard, right? And um, I go, yeah, I want that boat, but can I sell it? He's like, it's yours, you can do whatever the hell you want to do with it. So I sold it, right? I sold it and paid for that class. Oh shit. Because uh because I was living in an apartment in Pomona at the time. Okay, right, and uh um so I sold it and paid for that class. And I went to that class, and that class changed my life, right? Because I I I got my concrete license. Damn, dude. I got my concrete license and then uh for for special inspections, and then uh right after that class was over, the teacher said you should get your soils, right? So I got my soils, and then I got my masonry, and then I got my welding, and then I got my bolting, and then uh, and then I got my fireproofing, and then the next thing I know, I got more more uh certifications than my buddy who got me into this. And then I started working as an independent contractor, right? Making decent money. A bit. Making decent money, and then so I did that for about seven years, and um, and then and then I found this thing, right, that California actually is a good place to be an ex-fellon because they have this thing called ban the box, right? Do you know about ban the box? Like, no, after seven years, they cannot ask you.

SPEAKER_02: 1:53:04

Oh, I know what you're talking about, right?

SPEAKER_01: 1:53:05

They can't ask you. So I so I was like, you know, I never thought I thought I never thought I'd have a real job. Right. Right. So um one of those classes that I took, we went to the the teacher, his son was the president of one of these major uh uh materials testing laboratories that the inspectors work for. So I I went we went down to this brand new uh um facility, and I'm like, dude, I gotta work here. I want to work here. It's like this nice lab. And seven years later, after starting this career, um uh uh uh a job listing came up on LinkedIn, right? It was for Kleinfelder. So so I applied for it. I was like, you know what, who cares? Yeah, I even if they find out I don't even care because I got a career already. Right. I got hired. Damn, dude. I got hired, so now I I became an employee, and then um I'm I'm not there anymore. I I moved on, I and now I'm a project manager for uh for another engineering firm. And then um, yeah. Um Dude, you're doing it, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:54:20

Well, I want to thank you for coming on the show, bro. Like that's two hours. We already flu, dude. Yeah, bro.

SPEAKER_01: 1:54:28

I didn't even tell you the best part. Which is no, so so so the the other the the the best part of this whole thing is is um is I I also during that time, right, uh got to got an opportunity to uh uh work with the Athletic Commission. Damn for the state.

SPEAKER_02: 1:54:49

Damn, bro, you're just fucking killing firing on all uh cylinders.

SPEAKER_01: 1:54:53

Yeah, so so that's the other thing that I do as well.

SPEAKER_02: 1:54:56

Sweet, bro. Yeah, well, thank you again for coming on, bro. If you have any links or whatever for your social media, we'll put them down there if you people want to tap in with you. But I appreciate you coming on here and shouting out.

SPEAKER_01: 1:55:07

No, I and I appreciate you having me here and let me tell my story. And and you know, I I hope it uh helps uh anybody out there, it will, bro, especially in 2025 and doing the Lord's work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:55:18

Well, there you guys have it, folks. Another banger. I told you guys, man, spreading the Lord's word with that. If you like what you saw, make sure you hit that subscribe button. Love you, keep pushing forward.

SPEAKER_00: 1:55:36

Never been paint from the hood to the bed, truth and tales, bad, act of battle one end, story never ends.