Hector Bravo UNHINGED
Official Hector Bravo Podcast
Hector Bravo UNHINGED
From Juvenile Life To Freedom
We trace a Sacramento kid’s path from petty theft to a 50-to-life sentence at fourteen, through High Desert’s politics and violence, to an education-driven transformation that ended in resentencing and freedom. The conversation pulls apart real rehabilitation, broken incentives, legal reforms, and how structure and accountability turn chaos into purpose.
• early life in South Sacramento and missing father
• escalation from shoplifting to burglaries and guns
• arrest, interrogation, and adult court transfer
• 50-to-life sentence and mental crash
• CYA and High Desert survival, politics, respect
• lockdowns, riots, and psychological warfare
• books, mentors, and self-accountability
• Centinela programs, college, and real work
• Prop 57, SB 260/261, People v Heard and resentencing
• critique of rehab gaps and need for job-ready trades
• integration, SNY incentives, and GP discipline
• reentry shocks, family reunions, and purpose
• message of hope for lifers and juveniles
Hey Warriors, if you haven’t already signed up for our all new website, HectorBravoshow.com, make sure you sign up at the link below, HectorBravoshow.com to watch explicit, uncensored, never before seen prison footage
Welcome back to our channels, Warriors. We are still growing today. Another banger man. We're connecting NorCal and SoCal all the way up from Sacramento. We have somebody that got sentenced to 50 years to life in prison at the age of 14. None other than Big Stay a Prisoner's Voice. What up, dude?
SPEAKER_02:Hey man, say, man, it's your boy Big Stay the Prisoner's Voice. So with the click, live and recon lake rock meant to a lie, or praise be to Allah. Peace bless be upon the viewers that's watching this. We're here on another blessed interview.
SPEAKER_01:You aren't kidding about your little intro, man. Nah, you're serious business. I dig it, I dig it. So, dude, first and foremost, thank you from traveling all the way from Sacramento, Sacktown.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, ain't no problem. Cool. Where were you born? I was born and raised in Sacramento, California. In South Sacramento, California. Uh G Parkway to be exact. G Parkway? Yeah, G Parkway is the uh the neighborhood.
SPEAKER_01:How many parts of Sacramento are there?
SPEAKER_02:Uh because you said South Sacramento. Yeah, it's four parts. You know, you got the South, the East, the West, and the North.
SPEAKER_01:How is the South? How would you describe that?
SPEAKER_02:Well, the South is more like uh Hood? Yeah, I mean, all of Sacramento got its own, you know, hood, but the sac the South Sacramento is like a little bit more grimier. Grimier? Yeah, it's a little bit more grimer.
SPEAKER_01:Out of all of them.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, out of all of Sacramento.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, cool. Cool. Um I know we were when we went to Mission Beach earlier, man. Beautiful there. You uh you mentioned you started smoking weed at the age of seven.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I was uh seven years old when I first started smoking weed. I remember one time I was uh I was just a little kid and I was watching my uncle, and my uncle was smoking weed, and I seen him grab the lighter and light the blunt, and then I seen him set it in the ashtray when he was done. And as soon as he got done, I went and imitated the same thing. Okay, and I've been smoking weed ever since.
SPEAKER_01:What year were you born?
SPEAKER_02:Uh 1992.
SPEAKER_01:1992. The riots in LA in 1992.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's way before my time.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that was your time because you were born. But uh so that was the first time. Did your uncle catch you at that point in time? Or not really?
SPEAKER_02:No, my uncle didn't catch me at that point in time. I think uh I think I smoked like a couple more times. Uh, and then one day I came, I came uh in a living room. I just got done smoking, and my mama and my cousin were sitting in the living room, and they had a chair in the middle of the floor, and then she had a serious look on her face, and she was like, Come here. And then she told me to sit in the seat. So, you know, I'm looking puzzled as a kid. You looking puzzled. You know you didn't did something, but you know, you ain't like, damn, what I do this time. So then when I sat down in the seat, she like, oh, you like to smoke, right? And I'm like, huh? So then she telling my uh my cousin, like, man, we should just make him smoke a whole lot until you know he don't like it no more. But then uh I ended up just getting a whooping and going about my business. It didn't stop me from smoking, though. I continued to smoke. Was there a father figure in the household? Well, yeah, my uh my dad was in my household to I believe I was like the age of eight years old. Okay. Or nine years old. Then one day I had came from school and it was me and my older brother. And then once again, my mama was she was uh standing at the front door, and as soon as we walked in, she'll like sit down, sit at the table. I got something to tell you guys. Then she started explaining, you know, how my dad was gonna be away for uh a while uh because he was on the run for a murder. So then eventually he ended up uh, I don't know if he either got cut or he turns himself in, but he ended up going to jail anyway. Then he ended up taking uh six years for uh voluntary manslaughter. So, you know, at the age of eight, my dad ended up going to prison for manslaughter. And then, you know, I had my uncle, but I wouldn't say he was really a uh male role model, he was just a male that was in a household. So, you know, when I start talking about male households, I, you know, started venturing outside the household to, you know, my friends in the streets.
SPEAKER_01:If you could remember back to when you were eight and your mother sat you down and told you your pops was going away for a while, do you remember what type of feelings you had at that time?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, I was kind of like growing up, I was kind of like a daddy's boy. So, you know, I was I was sad. And uh, you know, as a kid, I really didn't talk that much anyways. And, you know, uh always had anger issues, but when my dad left, it, you know, intensified my anger issues and it left me nowhere to, you know, turn to because I wasn't a mama's boy, I was a daddy's boy, and my dad was gone, so now it's like I don't really care. Did you did that bring you closer with your brother? Uh me and my brother was close, but I wouldn't say that brought me closer with my brother. I would say that brought me eventually closer as I got older, you know, to my friends in the streets. Okay. And we'll get you that part.
SPEAKER_01:Um, was your dad part of a gang that you know of?
SPEAKER_02:Uh no, my dad wasn't part of a gang. I think uh with his case was uh my dad used to have all the cars, like all the old school cars and stuff like that. And from the stories I heard, he was going to sell one of his cars, and when he was going to sell his car, somebody tried to rob him, and it ended up being a shootout. That's how he ended up with the uh manslaughter.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. During this period of time, were you aware of gangs in your area?
SPEAKER_02:Well, yeah, I was aware, I was aware of gangs, but I don't I didn't look at them how you know society looks at them. Because, like I say, these are all my friends, or these ain't my friends, these are my friends, older brothers, older cousins, you know, these is people close by. So, and all that shot, uh, these are people you're growing up with that's buying you candy from the stores and stuff like that. So you're not looking at these people like, oh, these are gang members, but of course, you know you're surrounded by gang members.
SPEAKER_01:From your area, how many gangs? Because I want to know, dude, how many gangs would you say there are? Well, in my area or in my neighborhood. What's the difference? And yeah, anywhere.
SPEAKER_02:Well, my area would be South Sacramento. South Sacramento is divided up into different neighborhoods. Okay. You have the Meadowview neighborhood, you have the 29th Street neighborhood, you have the Detroit neighborhood, you have the G Parkway neighborhood, you have the Valley High neighborhood, so you have these different neighborhoods within South Sacramento. But my neighborhood is G Parkway.
SPEAKER_01:G Parkway.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Is this a thing where neighborhoods beef with each other? Well, you know, throughout time in history, neighborhoods have always beefed with each other in South Sacramento. You know, it's just like uh I compare it to like the army, you know, different countries. At different times in history, you know, different countries always go to war over different things, whether it's power, whether it's money, whatever the case may be, resources. So, of course, when you know uh gentrified and you and these small neighborhoods, of course, you know all these neighborhoods are going to go to war at some point in time. Because for one, they're impoverished. And then for two, everybody's battling over the same resources, whether them resources be drugs, money, or whatever the case may be, which leads to, you know, uh what they call gang wars. It's a site. You know, you might have a gang member over here, it might be slow over here, and then he might go over to this neighborhood, he might make a little bit more money, but now he's stepping on somebody else's toes.
SPEAKER_01:Are these territories and neighborhoods divided by certain landmarks and or streets?
SPEAKER_02:Well, of course, they're divided by streets. Uh you know, you got the neighborhood signs and stuff like that, which gives it give it its name. So, you know, uh everything is divided by streets.
SPEAKER_01:Is it cool to venture off into other people's neighborhoods? Or is it you you're cool to that? You're just not allowed to sell dope in other people's area?
SPEAKER_02:Well, you know, when you're in South Sacramento, you can go through whatever neighborhoods you want to. You know, it's all South Sacramento, but it's just certain lines and boundaries you don't cross. Out of respect. Yeah, out of respect.
SPEAKER_01:What age did you start getting introduced to that lifestyle, or was it just automatic all the time?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think for me, man, I kind of like just gravitated towards it because even when I was going to elementary school, first grade, second grade, third grade, walking home, me and my friends and my brothers and then would go to the stores and be stealing. So, you know, it'll start off with stealing. And then we'll go around the neighborhood after that stealing bikes. So it was just kind of like gradually just building up. Who are you stealing the bikes from? Well, you know, you might be with a group of your friends and you walking past a house, and in this house, it's a bike right in front. But is that your homie's house? Or just it might, and you know, Sacramento is diverse. So it might be an Asian house, it might be a Mexican house. You know, you know when you walk past one of your homie houses, because his mama's gonna say something, somebody gonna say something, and you know what ain't one of your houses.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So you know, you walking by and you seeing a nice bike, and you get to looking around as you four or five of your partners. You just came up on a bike. Then you just came up on a bike. I hear you. And then you know we're just walking around a neighborhood and just do the same thing.
SPEAKER_01:No, I hear you. But I've done a lot of interviews, man, and a lot of the stories are similar. And I want to get into uh, like we said earlier, the cycle of living in poverty. Would you say it was poverty, as you mentioned?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I would I would say it because I remember growing up, my mama always said we poor, but we got a roof over our head. And I didn't really understand that. But what she meant was even though she's going to work and she working her uh uh her butt off, you know, working a nine to five, we just barely making ends meet month to month. So even though we got a roof over our head, we still can't get the things we want. You know, when you see other kids riding around or uh they got new bikes, new shoes, new clothes all the time, you kind of want them things. And it's like it ain't that your family can't do it, it's just that they're not able because they doing all they can in order for you to uh grow up successful. Like I say, having a roof over your head, having food in your house and stuff like that. So it's not that you know she wasn't trying to, it's just that she couldn't provide that. So, you know, we as kids, we always want things, and when we can't get them things, we find ways to get them, whether it's stealing or things like that. So that's what lays to uh leads to the behavior.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Looking back in hindsight now, are you appreciative and do you see the importance of your mother working extremely hard?
SPEAKER_02:Well, yeah, I mean, looking back now, you know, everything that she said rang true. It's crazy how that works, huh? Yeah, it's crazy how it works. But that's even when I be uh, you know, talking to certain people when they be like, oh man, we be talking to the kids and they don't want to listen. I'm like, man, that's like planting the seed. It may not grow right then and there, but it eventually is gonna grow. But you know, like uh like I say, man, when you actually see your mama going to work and then you become an adult and you're doing that same process, you respect it more. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because you understand the hard work that you're putting into. You're stealing bikes, you're stealing candy bars and whatnot. Um, that's just petty so far. Yeah, that's just petty. At what point did it start to escalate?
SPEAKER_02:Well, it starts to escalate it once we start once I think I got it like around middle school and we start stealing cars. God damn, dude, cars? Yeah, we start stealing cars. How are you doing that? I'm teaching uh, no, no, see, they got like the uh the Buicks and stuff like that, and the old mobile and stuff, but it got the steering column. But on the side of the steering column, if you pop it, it's gonna be like a little horseshoe. Then all you do is take the flathead, pop the little horseshoe, and then pull it up, and the car is gonna start. Do you need practice, or can anybody do it? I mean, once you show them how to do it, you're gonna get it. Because that's how it happened with me. Somebody showed me, then I showed somebody else. Okay, and it just kept going. But then we went from, you know, uh stealing cars to stealing purses.
SPEAKER_01:Were you steal right stealing to joy right, or were you doing something with the vehicles?
SPEAKER_02:Well, it all depends. Sometimes we, like I say, we would steal them, then jump out, snap some purses, then jump back in, right, then probably pass the car off to one or other friends or some stuff like that. But, you know, it just started escalating, stealing cars, snatching purses, uh, house burglaries, so forth and so on.
SPEAKER_01:This is very interesting, man. At that point in time, did you did the victims cross your mind at all? About what they may have felt.
SPEAKER_02:No, at this time, I'm about 12, 13 years old. So, you know, uh, even you know, they got the new studies right now to show that, you know, uh children's brains aren't fully developed, but at this time, you just acting off inpulse. You're not thinking about, oh, I just stole somebody's car, they can't get to work today. I just snatched this lady's purse. Now she's missing her IDs and credit cards. You're not thinking about none of that. To you, it's just fun. And in the midst of that, uh uh having fun, you getting what you want. You know what I'm saying? Okay, I just snatched the purse, I got some money, now give me some new shoes. Or I can get this new game that came out.
SPEAKER_01:Using your life experiences with where we're at right now in this conversation, what would you tell those youngsters, 12-year-old kids that are stealing shit?
SPEAKER_02:Well, right now, man, I would tell, I would tell a uh 12-year-old kid, man, that's stealing stuff that, man, uh, you know, that's not what you want to do. Because, you know, you just enjoy being a kid and enjoy the blessings of your parents providing for you what they can right now, and you stay in school and you stay focused, and uh you just keep that tunnel vision and you pursue your education, that all these things that you want right now in the short term is gonna be much greater when you get older.
SPEAKER_01:Facts, dude. Facts. Burglaries, home burglaries, man. So you guys are just running amok in set in the sense, dude.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we run away because uh, like I said, we'd be joyriding, and you might see a house or something, and then this is what we do. We'll go up, we'll ring the doorbell. So if somebody answered the door, we're gonna ask if is a kid there. Hey, is Michael there? And I remember one time we did it, the lady came out cussing, you mother, get the that I know what y'all was trying to do. And then she calls the police. Oh shit. No, man, we would do that, man. But looking back, man, you know, like I say, especially when you see how, you know, hard people gotta work for stuff, man. It's like, damn, man, I was just messed up. You know, you be kind of feeling remorseful and regretful. But at the time, you know, you're just doing what you gotta do to get what you need. Were you fulfilling your needs of getting what you needed? Well, I think I was fulfilling my needs and also, you know, that that thrill and that excitement and that adrenaline rush. But then again, when you go in a house and then, you know, you didn't come up on a PlayStation or some new games or some playing that. Yeah, you playing that and you, you know, this is the only way to get it.
unknown:Damn.
SPEAKER_01:Damn. During this period of time, was there uh law enforcement contact?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I remember one time I was uh we had just stolen a G-Ride. Okay. So we driving around, uh, we in Green Haven. It's kind of like the white part of South Sacramento. So we in Green Haven, the police pull us over. The cold part about it is the car ain't been reported stolen yet, so they can't do nothing. So what they do is they know we ain't supposed to be driving. So they caught all our mamas and drove us home in the back of the police cars. So as soon as we get there, I got my I got my ass whooped. Your mama whooped your ass? My mama whoop my ass off the top. Did she use a weapon or her hand? She used the belt. Okay. Yeah, I got my ass whooped off the top. But they couldn't do nothing, but that was my first contact with law enforcement.
SPEAKER_01:Did that discourage you at any means encourage you?
SPEAKER_02:No, I didn't discourage it. Did the ass whooping hurt? It did. I mean, I at that time I was used to ass whoopings. I used to get my ass whooped all the time. I mean, ever since I was in elementary and I started getting suspended. I mean, I was probably suspended once a week. Fighting or what? Uh fighting, cussing out the teacher. I think I was expelled from like three, four elementary schools.
SPEAKER_01:Would you say you had a problem with authority?
SPEAKER_02:Looking back now, yeah, I could say I got it'd be a you know a problem with authority. But not I don't even really think it's a really a problem with authority. I think it was just, you know, dealing with the anger of my dad being gone to stuff like that and not knowing how to channel that energy. Right. You're a misguided missile.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. There's a lot of similarities between young adult young males at that age. Um they all take different paths or whatever's in front of them. When was the first time you got incarcerated?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, the first time I got incarcerated was for the murder. No, there's no way, dude. I'm trying to tell you, the first time I got incarcerated is for the murder.
SPEAKER_01:There's no way that you were doing all this stuff.
SPEAKER_02:I was doing all this stuff, and the first thing I get arrested for is a murder.
SPEAKER_01:Let's let's let's go there. Were you a part of the gang when the murder transpired?
SPEAKER_02:At that point in time, yes, I was a part of the gang when a murder uh transpired. Was a victim an enemy? He was from an opposite neighborhood. A rival neighborhood? Yeah, he was from an opposite neighborhood.
SPEAKER_01:Can you talk about the events that day or you cannot?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I can talk about all my being convicted and being my time.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. What was it, a house party?
SPEAKER_02:No, uh I just happened to be, I think I was kicked out of school at that time, or I wasn't in school at that time, or something happened like that, but I wasn't going to school. And I was going to meet up with a female, and then when I went to go meet up with her, she ended up playing. So then when I left her, I end up walking to one of my partner's houses, and from there I was leaving to go to the store, and then on my way to the store, I ended up running into the guard from the opposite neighborhood.
SPEAKER_01:I'm assuming you were armed. Yes, I was armed. At what point in time did you start fucking carrying a weapon, dude?
SPEAKER_02:Well, uh, I think I had got my first weapon from a house burglary. Okay. And then ever since then, so probably when I was about like 12 years old.
SPEAKER_01:Did you ever fire it to practice or to hear how it sounded or see how it felt? Like in the backyard or anything like that? Or you just always held had it? I just always had it. Did you know the power that it carried?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I mean, I I knew to a certain extent uh the power that it carried. Did all your friends have guns? Uh not to my knowledge.
SPEAKER_01:Out of all your groups of friends, were you always kind of more turned up than the rest of them?
SPEAKER_02:I was one of the ones that was uh turned up. Well, you know there's different levels of knowledge. I was kind of like, you know, one of the ones that was frontlining. Frontlining, huh? Yeah, you know, I was frontlining. Uh like I say, my dad was in prison, didn't have a father figure, didn't really care, was bottled up with a whole lot of anger. And, you know, I played pop water at the same time because my mama and my cousin tried to put me in pop warner uh to direct my energy. Correct. But at the same time, I was still gravitating towards the streets. And then eventually the streets had one. Would you say you were destined to follow your father's footsteps? Well, see, that's crazy because in my book that's on Amazon, Little Estated Transition, I talk about it. I say it's like, uh, because the crazy part is, I caught my case in January 2007. But the same year I caught my case, at the end of that year, my dad was coming home from prison. So it's like the system traded one for the other. Damn, dude. So he was on his way out, and I just came in. What's the name of your book? Uh, The Transition. It's called Little State of Transition.
SPEAKER_01:When you said that right now, that your father was transitioning out of prison, you were transitioning in, it reminded me that at Centinela we had a father-son duo. Oh, I didn't seen that before too.
SPEAKER_02:They were Sellies.
SPEAKER_01:Correct.
SPEAKER_02:But yeah, that's how it happened, though. Uh my dad was going out, I was coming in, but it's like, like I say, what gravitated me, I think, towards the streets was just, you know, being able to unleash that anger and stuff out like that and act out. And then, you know, like I say, your friends become your family. So in actuality, this thing that they call a gang is really like your family. And, you know, it builds uh morale, it builds, you know, self-confidence, self-esteem, uh the wrong type of leadership, but it does build leadership skills and things like that.
SPEAKER_01:At the time of your crime, were you still residing at home with your mom?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, at the time of my crime, I was like, I was only 14 years old.
SPEAKER_01:Did you get caught there on scene, or did you run away and get caught later?
SPEAKER_02:No, I ran away. I got caught like a week later. A week later? Yeah, I got caught like a week later. Were you kicking it at your pad the whole entire week? Uh no, I was moving from different locations.
SPEAKER_01:But you were smart enough, even at that young age, to move, to be on the move.
SPEAKER_02:Well, yeah, I know I had just did something terribly wrong. So Did you know you had killed somebody? Eventually, yeah, because I seen it on the news later that night. Well, not even, I'm gonna keep real. But before I even seen it on the news, I was uh I think I had just went to Mac Road or something, and I can't remember who it was, but somebody pulled up in the corner like, hey man, you just heard about the killing that happened over there on Wooti Wu Woo. I'm like, oh shit. And I'm just looking. And then I am going to my partner house. Did you ditch the weapon?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, I want to know like what how much knowledge you had of getting away after committing a crime, you know, because that kind of takes skill or knowledge. Were you watching movies and you knew how to do all this shit, or were they just extinct?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I mean, I think it's really just you know, uh instinct. Instinct, you know, like just acting off instinct. You know you did something wrong, so you know, boom, boom, it's just like instinct. Like human beings got a they got a natural instinct, correct? Uh, you know, a natural compass, a natural guiding force. Primal. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Was when you were in hiding on the run, I should say. The same way you said your dad was on the run. That's a trip. Was your mother aware of this?
SPEAKER_02:No, my mother didn't have any knowledge of nothing.
SPEAKER_01:Were you fearful?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, eventually, because you know, the streets, the streets start talking and stuff like that, and he was with a couple of his friends, so then I had already knew one that one of the dudes he was with, so it's like just a matter of time. It's just a matter of time. Did you know it was just a matter of time? Uh in a way, yeah. I mean, the crime happened broad daylight. No masks on, no nothing.
SPEAKER_01:At that point in time, did you realize the severity of your actions?
SPEAKER_02:I realized it was severe, but then when I actually had to endure the consequences, I didn't know it was gonna be all that. Like, you know how a lot of people say, Oh, you know what you signed up for? Correct. But in in hindsight, a lot of people, especially at that age, don't be knowing what they're gonna sign up for. Because, you know, you used to be when you was a juvenile, they gave you juvenile life. Okay, until you're 25 or something. Yeah, but did nobody tell me that, oh, you know, you do that, you'll spend the rest of your life in prison.
SPEAKER_01:So had you been with a woman at this age, 14?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I had a couple girlfriends.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, okay. Because you'd be surprised. There's people that find themselves in prison that had never been with a woman at the age of 18, 19, 20, 21. Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna do uh eventually they located your whereabouts.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, eventually uh they tracked me down. Were you in public when they got you? No, I was at a house. They ended up hitting like four different houses looking for me.
SPEAKER_01:That time or continued?
SPEAKER_02:Periodically throughout. They hit like four different houses looking for me. Raiding. Raiding the houses, kicking the fucking door in, looking for weapons, that all that stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Who was it? Sacramento PD? It was Sacramento PD. And then eventually your homies will call you and say, hey, they just raided the pad? No, I mean the people living there will call me.
SPEAKER_02:So the day they come get you, do they raid the pad? No, the day they come get me, they uh just raided one of the houses.
SPEAKER_01:Hey Warriors, if you haven't already signed up for our all new website, HectorBravoshow.com, make sure you sign up at the link below, HectorBravoshow.com to watch explicit, uncensored, never before seen prison footage. With that, love you. Keep pushing forward.
SPEAKER_02:Then uh my mama, she's not knowing no better. She uh basically, oh, they want you for questioning this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and that. Then I end up getting took to the uh to the precinct. And in the precinct, you're in an interrogation room? I'm in the interrogation room. They got me in there, my brother in there, my other partner in there. Uh, then I got my other partner. I'm not knowing. He got incarcerated for a robbery, but on a whole nother case, then he started volunteering information, talking about he got information for a murder, uh, if they can cut his time down. For the robbery. For the robbery. That's a trip, dude. And all he was looking at. Yeah, and all he all he was looking at, I think, was CYA. Absolutely. And instead of going to CYA, he was trying to go to ROP.
SPEAKER_01:Damn, he really wasn't built for the game, huh? No.
unknown:How are you gonna?
SPEAKER_01:You know, usually your own crime partner turns on you, but this dude wasn't even on the city.
SPEAKER_02:No, he was trying to, he was trying to get it.
SPEAKER_01:So I never heard a story like that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so he and I heard plenty of them, but he ended up he ended up giving up information.
SPEAKER_01:Motherfuckers volunteering to tell, dude. Hey, there's not even no pressure, and the cops weren't even asking.
SPEAKER_02:That's how it is these days. That's crazy.
SPEAKER_01:But wow, bro.
SPEAKER_02:I end up uh going to jail. Then I end up going to uh going to the to the holding tank.
SPEAKER_01:Real quick, because uh I know the law and I know uh did you have legal representation?
SPEAKER_02:No, I have my mother.
SPEAKER_01:She was present? Uh eventually she became present. During the questioning. During the questioning. Oh my goodness, bro. Was she did you ever confess to the murder in the interrogation room? She was in tears. What did that look like?
SPEAKER_02:It's just, you know, you're just sitting there watching your mama cry and she just it's just like ain't nothing nobody can do. How did that make you feel at that time? Uh it made me feel bad. But at the same time, at the same time, I'm not understanding the full severity of the situation. So even when, like I say, even when I got arrested, then I end up going to the juvenile holding tank, I end up telling one of the staff, like, oh, I'm not uh worried about it. I'd be out in a couple days or something. And even the staff was looking at me like I was crazy.
SPEAKER_01:But that's really what you thought.
SPEAKER_02:But that's really what I thought. And when did you go to trial? I didn't go to trial to uh what I got I got incarcerated in January 2007, so I ended up going to trial like 17 months later, August of 2008. Was it an adult trial? It was an adult trial. My first court date, I was uh shackled up and bound over to adult court on the van. So I was arraigned in adult court.
SPEAKER_01:Why did they go adult court?
SPEAKER_02:Because I guess uh I don't know if it was Governor Brown or Schwarzenegger, but they had amended it to whereas juveniles could now be tried as adults as long as it meet met certain criteria for a violent felony and murder was one of them.
SPEAKER_01:Plus, in hand.
SPEAKER_02:Because they were saying basically, I think back in 1994 with Bill Clinton and uh Joe Biden, and then when they passed a uh passed the tough on crime law saying that uh juveniles were child predators, that juvenile, that young juvenile gang members were child predators and that they should be treated as adults. And that's where it stemmed from. And then when I think either Schwarzenegger or Governor got in the brown, they admitted it in California that they admitted the penal code to whereas we could be tried as adults again.
SPEAKER_01:When Biden made that statement that these young criminal gang members are child predators, do you agree with that statement from your experience?
SPEAKER_02:No, I don't I don't agree with it, right? Because I know a lot of uh juveniles that I was incarcerated with, uh, like I say, it just happened that I was from Sacramento County, and you know, Sacramento was tough on all the laws, but I was also incarcerated with people from Oakland, San Francisco, and stuff that had these same type of crimes that went into the CYA, got rehabilitated, and been doing well, and is still out to the Day. Okay, okay. That makes sense. I just wanted you to clarify that from your experience. Yeah, so I don't believe that uh, you know, no juvenile can uh not be redeemed.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, but it varied per county, the severity of the laws.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean it's always gonna be some type of recidivism. It don't matter if it's a juvenile, whether it's adult, because you always gonna have people that just don't learn.
SPEAKER_00:Correct.
SPEAKER_02:But, you know, for the mass of juveniles, if you give them the right rehabilitation, I believe they can come out, you know, equipped.
SPEAKER_01:So you're in adult court. Did you know, hey, I should be in juvenile court, or you didn't know, or it didn't matter. You court was just court to you.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I didn't know, but as soon as I seen my attorney, the first thing that she tells me is you going to adult court. Oh my god. But she made a mix-up. The first time she seen me, she said, uh, you're facing 25 years of life. Okay. And then I go to court and I'm in an arraignment uh thing, and she says, Hey, I made a mistake about the time you're facing. And then I said, Uh, oh yeah. She said, Yeah, you're facing 50 years of life.
SPEAKER_01:They must have had conversations. You know how like lawyers talk about kind of lunch and shit? They must have had a conversation or something.
SPEAKER_02:They must have had something. And then they said, We're gonna hit this dude with 50. They end up charging me for the first degree murder, which carried 25 years of life. And then they gave me a gun enhancement causing Great Bowley Horn, which extended the 10-year gun enhancement to 25 years of life.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god, dude. Uh, when you were you were 15 years old. I was 14. No, in trial. In trial, I was 16. 16 years old trial.
SPEAKER_02:Dude, was your mom present? Uh when she could, because she had a job. So if my mama wasn't present, uh my auntie would come fill in for, you know, uh a couple other family members would come and uh fill in for.
SPEAKER_01:What was that day like when the judge vocalized your being sent to your guilty?
SPEAKER_02:Well, see, I knew it, right? Because I had, I think I had 10 white jury, one Hispanic, and then one black lady. But I knew I knew they found me guilty because the black lady came in crying. Really? Yeah, she came in crying, so I'm like, okay. So then the judge, he get the uh, he get the verdict, he reads the verdict, boom. Uh, guilty on all counts, guilty on first-degree murder, guilty on uh gun enhancement causing great bodily injury. So they tell me come back in, I don't know, 45, 60 days or something for uh sentencing. So then I come back for uh sentencing like two months later, and the judge he got this whole speech. Oh, I'm sad to give Mr. Stevens 50 years of life, and it's sad that we're gonna be losing two juveniles, one had died, then one to the prison system for the rest of his life. Uh I'm sorry that his mama was gonna have to visit him uh behind the glass for the rest of his life, and he just came with this long spill. Did it look like he was reading the spill or it was coming from like No, it was coming from his mouth. He wasn't reading no paper.
SPEAKER_01:You really think he felt bad as a judge?
SPEAKER_02:I don't think he really cared. You know, it just fucking black. Just another, yeah, just another another person. So they end up uh sentencing me that 50 years of life that day. Uh I left. As soon as I get back to the to the to they shackle me up, transport me to the juvenile hall. As soon as I get back to the juvenile hall, of course the whole juvenile hall know already. So the staff is coming up to me, are you alright? You okay? They asked me, Do I need to talk to the psych and all that stuff? No. Like 20 minutes later, they called me out for a visit. I go to the visit, my mama in there crying. I'm telling her, don't trip, it's gonna be alright. And then uh after that, I think I was in Juvenile Hall for like a couple weeks, and I ended up going to CYA to the uh Children's Youth Authority.
SPEAKER_01:Were you doing the math in your head? I'm 16 now, and 50 years I'm gonna be this old. I'm gonna get out, or I'm did you well at that moment I wouldn't even I just was like it's over.
SPEAKER_02:It's over. Yeah, at that moment. Your life is over. Yeah, at that moment, I was like, I was it's over. Stopped believing in God, became an atheist the whole 10. Did you lose hope? Uh for a moment, yeah. You know, fresh, fresh sentence, giving 50 years of life, you ain't trying to hear nothing. Nothing.
SPEAKER_01:How was CYA?
SPEAKER_02:CIA was straight.
SPEAKER_01:Well, well, because I know that it was different at the time. They shut it down. I was in Preston. Preston? Yeah, in California.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, fights. That's just regular NYA. Fights, riots, stuff like that. That's just regular. Regular. Yeah. As soon as you get there, you automatically got to catch a fade or two with your enemies off the top.
SPEAKER_01:We were you went from you went from juvenile hall to CYA, and then you went to prison? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:On my 18th birthday, uh the CDC came to give me going to prison. Was it your actual birthday? Yeah, my actual birthday. 18th birthday. And the cold part about it though, they knew I everybody knew I was going, though, because it had one uh staff in here, his name was Ferguson. So for all the kids that's sent into prison, what he do is, you know, on Death Row, they got the last meal.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So before you go to prison, he's like, hey man, what you want your last meal to be? At the CYA. At the CYA. And would he actually make it happen? Yeah, actually bring it.
SPEAKER_01:No way.
SPEAKER_02:And I'm trying to tell you, he actually bring it. I knew I was going to prison. He like, hey man, uh, what you want your last meal to be? Woo, this, this, this, and that, give me a hug. Cool as fuck. That was just his thing? That's just his thing. Because he understood, like, man, it's just a fucked up. Because when I got to Y, they told me, they said, man, you ain't supposed to have all that time. So, you know, they actually be feeling for uh kids and stuff like that. Staff members.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:You know, so it's just like you got some CEOs that be cool like that, but.
SPEAKER_01:I get it. Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, they're human.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I knew I was going to the pen because he brought me that last meal. Then the next day, it was like four o'clock in the morning. They like, uh, Stevens, pack your shit. You said his name was Ferguson? Ferguson. Man. White dude. I think he got like one gold tooth in the front.
SPEAKER_01:That's a trip, dude. I had no idea that it was even a thing. The last meal for CYA before you go to the big house.
SPEAKER_02:Before you go to the pen, he used to always do it. But 18th birthday ended up uh going to DVR, Tracy. For reception. For reception. Because you know, you get there, they got to calculate your points and stuff, all that stuff. So I'm there for like 90 days. And then the council calculates my points. Or you're going to high desert uh state prison, level 4180. So I'm like, all right. So like 90 days later, it's like 3 o'clock in the morning. They come to my door with the brown bag. The brown bag say uh HDSP. So boom, packed with your little property and stuff. Get on the bus. We get on the bus. We end up going to Folsom, drop some people off in Folsom, boom. Then from Folsom, we went to Susanville, because you know Susanville and High Desert next uh right across the street from each other. So we end up going to Susanville, dropped them off, then boom. We get to high desert. As soon as you get there, they got a sign that says, Welcome to High Drama State Prison. High drama state prison. High drama state prison. So boom. What was a sign on? Like a wooden sign? No, it's like, you know how you put the signs up? Yeah, it's like a regular sign. Like they had to put up. Welcome to High Drama State Prison. Okay. So boom, we get in there. We get stripped out, squat cough, all that shit. You got a uh a black Southsider. He must have had some words with the police. The next thing I know, they slamming him. He naked, they slamming him, spraying Macy, stick him in a cage, and throw the big fan on him. And he in there just screaming. So after that, uh when that when you saw that?
SPEAKER_01:Where were you guys in? R and R? Was in R. When you saw that, what thoughts went through your head? Like, oh fuck. No, I'm just like, that shit crazy. Or like, oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I'm like, I don't know what he did, but so we go to the cages, they processing this. They tell me that like uh you going to C6, Charlie uh Upper Yard. So I go to Charlie Upper C6. At this time, though, you got the uh who was it? I believe you had the northern or whites at war. So they was already like on a year of lockdown or something like that. What year was this? This was 2010. Okay. So I think they was like already on the year of lockdown or something like that. But it was the whites and the northerners, they was at war for sure. So we get there, we on lockdown already. So I go on the cell just happened. I had an older homie from uh South Sacramento, but he was from Medavie. In the cell? In the cell. Was that just by sheer luck? This was just by, I don't know. You know how y'all do it in R, man. Y'all be having a lot of people. But did you know him from the streets? No, I didn't. I knew his son. Okay. Was he the OG? He was an OG, he was like 46. Okay. Been going to prison his whole life. Yeah. But it was cool though, because he laced me, he ended up lacing me up. So he tell me, like, hey man, we on lockdown right now, fill out a medical slip, you know, just go ahead and see where everything at. Because, you know, in the 180s, you got to go behind the wall to get on the patio.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So he like, man, just fill out a medical slip, go see where the canteen is at, the Lower Library, so that when we come off lockdown, he's like, it's gonna be so much going on, you already know where everything at. So I ended up doing that, boom, boom. We ended up coming off uh lockdown, and then uh we was programming for a minute, then the northerners and the southerners end up going to war. Then uh we was in uh we was on the yard, and I think the northerners was in medical, or somebody was in medical, but the northerners end up busting out the handcuffs and stabbing up a southerner. So we go back on lockdown.
SPEAKER_01:When you're that OG was when your celly was lacing you up, was he lacing you up on prison etiquette and what the do's and the don'ts?
SPEAKER_02:He was lacing me up on whole prison politics. Prison etiquette, what not to do, what do you think? Even what the other races with the other races, the whole getting there, you know, when you go to prison, that's what they supposed to do. They supposed to give the ins and outs on the prison politics. Supposed to, yeah. Yeah, they supposed to. So, like I said, I was fortunate enough to have the OG homie that cared that gave me the ins and outs of prison politics, the do's and the don'ts. Because once you were bothered by that, your whole prison stint become easy. Were you receptive to what he was telling you? Well, at first, I wasn't really receptive to it, to be honest with y'all. I'm like, man, he's talking this old shit. I ain't nobody trying to hear this shit. No way, dude. But like I say, man, eventually, like I said, it's like planting seeds eventually. Right, you know, after you've been there and you start seeing what he's talking about, exactly start taking root. Right.
SPEAKER_01:So you see all you see north, south going at it, north, whites. Uh, you ever in your mind start to think like, damn, I can be a part of this soon? Well, then it ends up happening, right?
SPEAKER_02:But it's with the blacks. But the bloods in the cribs. The bloods in the cribs. Yeah. So one day we out there, we playing basketball, we end up getting into a ride with the Crips. Who? The bloods in the Crips.
SPEAKER_01:Is that are you blood affiliated? Yeah. See, that's what we didn't cover in the beginning. The area that you're from, are there bloods and cryps? No, there are bloods and cribs.
SPEAKER_02:There's even bloods and cribs from the same gang. That's what's always so confusing, dude. But you know, in prison, you can't just do that. In prison, it has to be distinct blood, crypt, this, this, and that. And then you got the non-affiliates, but then you got the non-affiliates that also run with either the bloods or the cribs. What about the Bay Area and the Kumi? Well, the Kumi is its own thing, period. And then the Bay Area is just, you know, Oakland, Richmond, Frisco, all them.
SPEAKER_01:So as a blood, you guys got involved in a riot with the Crips. With the Crips. On the basketball court? On the basketball court. With the baseball court. Over basketball.
SPEAKER_02:Spontaneous. You know, in prison, man, it's two, it's two things. You know, it's always gonna be something going on. The basketball court and gambling. Facts. So, you know how it is on a basketball court, it gets competitive, people get to talking, people get to talking crazy. Were you guys strapped? Some people was. Was that common practice to stay strapped? Well, you know, the the pen is like the streets. Worse, I think. So you gotta, you know, you just you know, you gotta stay prepared at all times. You gotta stay militant. So, you know, it's just certain uh protocols that you have to follow. After this melee, this riot, did you guys go to the hole? Uh some of us went to the hole, uh, came back, but you know, you always go on a lockdown. Right. Then at that point in time, you had to I remember when you had this dude, he was always talking tough. Soon as a riot happens, as soon as we go on lockdown. Now they about to do uh uh uh uh uh what's that uh uh incremental uh uh lockout lockups to where they do one and one, two and two. Incremental release? Incremental release, my bad. They about to do incremental release. So it's two Crips, two bloods. You know, they build the numbers up. This dude rolls it up.
SPEAKER_01:Damn, he rolled it up at the What did he do? Go up, walk up to the cops?
SPEAKER_02:He told the police he can't be here. Oh, god, his life is in danger. Jesus. That's interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Because there's motherfuckers that get stabbed in this building.
SPEAKER_02:Because I remember we were doing an incremental release, we go out there, and one of the homies he's like, let's just go right now. But the other older homie, he like, man, I've been through this plenty of times. A lot of times, after that one time and it's talked out, it don't go nowhere. Okay. So end up getting squashed. This dude done rolled it up for no reason. But I done seen it, I done seen it time and time again. The dudes that be in prison talking the toughest, acting the toughest, they end up rolling up.
SPEAKER_01:It's not just prison, man, it's everything. Uh whether you're in the military, just the loudest guy in the room is the weakest guy in the room. Well, let's talk about the opposite. Was there some fucking ride or die soldiers in there? Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You got you got some homies that let's take off on the police. Let's do this. Let's let's take off on the police. Yeah, man, let's you're like, man, just calm down. But nah, you got good dudes in there that'll put it all on the line.
SPEAKER_01:All on the line.
SPEAKER_02:All on the line. And don't even question it.
SPEAKER_01:Right. You know, that's good to a degree, right? Because if you channel that energy to something positive, such as public speaking, like you and I do, and you fucking go all in, that's a good trait you have.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's a good trait to have, but most of the dudes like that to be in a pen, they be having life without pro, they be having life, and they really deep down, they really just engage up. So they be ready to crash out. True. How long were you in high desert for? I did five years in high desert. How did you like that cold weather? It wasn't that bad. It wasn't bad? The snow wasn't bad. The only thing I don't like, it don't matter where I'm at in prison is when it rained. Why's that? Because you get all wet, you gotta hang all this shit up in your cell.
SPEAKER_01:Then you just now I know that the Mexicans have mandatory yard. Did you guys have mandatory yard?
SPEAKER_02:In High Desert for the Blacks is mandatory yard. But when I got down to the level 4270, uh Centinella, it wasn't so much a mandatory yard for the blacks.
SPEAKER_01:I'm glad we're talking because I watched certain um YouTubers, uh, something Portier, Portier. He was in uh he was up in High Desert, Black Dude. Yeah, and and the way he was talking was like, yeah, the blacks on fucking high desert have a militant structured program. They do.
SPEAKER_02:But that's because in Hard Desert, you also Damien Portier. Who? Damien, this it's up there. But in Hard Desert, you know, they they teach you that structure. You know what I'm saying? You come there and you kind of like more, it's like a more militant program. And then you go down to the 270s and it's kind of like more relaxed. Like on the 180s, you go there, people ain't talking to the police, right, and stuff like that. But then you go down to the level four 270s, and you like, damn, are you over there at the podium talking to the police by yourself? And you just see shit that just catch you off guard. Which program did you like better? Well, see, it's twofold, right? Because Hard Desert gave me my structure. That's what I'm talking about. But when I got to Centinella, it opened up more opportunities as far as rehabilitation, perfect, anger management, money management, stress management, uh, Imperial Valley College, uh, working in the PIA as a sewing machine operator. You know how desert, you're gonna sell 23, 24 hours a day, especially from 2010 to I think 2012. Because I think in 2012 they they changed it to whereas you're only going to lock down in 14 days. Right. But when I first got there, we were on lockdown six months. Plotting. The uh homie came out and stayed at the police six months. Right. So my first two years on Hard Desert was just really just lockdown time. And then when you go from that and you go to Centinela and you working in PIA all day, and then you getting paid 35 cents. Hey, it sounds funny right now, but No, I hear you. You know, when you didn't went from that environment to this, you didn't came up in the world. Big time. So, like I say, it's just both of them had they different purposes and benefits.
SPEAKER_01:Would you agree that men need discipline and structure?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm a firm believer in uh kids, even kids. Kids need structure and discipline. Men need structure and discipline. Everybody needs structure and discipline. Because when you don't got that, things just go haywire. Big time.
SPEAKER_01:What about the level of respect? Right? I've often heard, and I know for sure, uh the respect level on GP level force, especially 180s.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you know, everything is about respect. Right. You know, uh you sit down at like even on out here on the streets, a person will just reach over your food. In prison, uh, somebody's not about to do that. You know, and then when you're walking past somebody, you might be like, uh, you know, excuse me. I saw you do that at the beach. Yeah, out here, a person just gonna walk past you, step on your shoe, elbow you. You know, in prison, that's a problem. Because in prison, everything is about respect. Correct. Everything, like the smallest thing. You know, I didn't seen a uh a Mexican disrespect a black and his own people kill him. Right. So, you know, in prison, especially on a level four GPs, everything is about respect.
SPEAKER_01:Since you've been out in society, would you say that society lacks respect?
SPEAKER_02:Society definitely lacks respect. People just, uh, like I say, they talk crazy. Especially with the road wage. Yeah, the road wage is I don't fuck with the body. Motherfuckers have guns, dude. And then more, you be in the store, people done walked into you, they looking at you crazy. Breathing down your neck. And then you get a job, your supervisor talking to you crazy. Oh, I know. And you like, man, are you serious? Have you found the adjustment to be difficult as a result of that? I think uh my most difficult adjustment, man, is just authority. Authority, still authority, because people be feeling like they either in these certain positions or they deserve a certain type of respect, and you like for what? Like, man, if you don't go somewhere.
SPEAKER_01:Did you did you witness any murders at High Desert? Or the gunner you shoot the Mini 14?
SPEAKER_02:I think when I was in High Desert, it was like, what, eight, nine murders? But that wasn't that many because when I got to Centinella, it seemed like it was more than that. What about the Mini 14 being fired? I seen a white boy get shot. Oh, you did. His name was Billy. He was out there, they was doing a removal. You know how the whites do it. One person grabbed the legs, the other one stabbed him. But he grabbed his legs, he was stabbing him, and then he stopped. And then I don't know, he must have been high off something because he looked at the tower and he said, What? And he had the knife in his hand. As soon as he said that, the tower shot him in the stomach. And for a minute, he was still talking. Then the dude that was holding the old boy legs that he got stabbed, he said, Billy, you're shot. And then he looked down, he looked at himself in the center of the bud, and he just fell down. Did he die? I don't think Billy died. Damn. Nah, because he's a matter of fact, uh, eventually he came right back to Fireblock. Jesus. That's when I had moved to Charlie 5.
SPEAKER_01:Hey, when you were in High Desert, I know you mentioned that they were some of the most racist. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Did you say racist people or racist cops? Man, these are some of the most racist. I'm gonna say, well, I don't know, man, because I think high desert is just like white people anyway, though. No, it is. But I don't want to assume, so I'm gonna say racist cops. Okay. But man, these is the most racist heel bellies I ever seen in my life. Big guys? Like corn fed type. It didn't matter. Yes. I'm talking about even the old ones.
SPEAKER_01:Well, those are probably the old.
SPEAKER_02:It was like an old CEO, his name was Wentz. I can't stand that fucking Obama. He's trying to take away our fucking gun rights. I'm talking about all you gotta look to forward to a Section 8. I'm glad I'm making money off you guys today. I'm talking about these people was racist. When they're saying this, are they saying it to the inmates? Man, this is what they do because they use psychological warfare. Okay. So he'll be acting like he's talking to his partner. But you know, when they do breakfast, they bring the court down the tier because on a 180 you fed through the tray slot. Right. So they having this converse, this racist conversation, bringing these trays to everybody's trace slot. These motherfuckers just talking and they just acting like they talking to each other. And you like, man, these motherfuckers.
unknown:Damn.
SPEAKER_02:But that's how they do it. Oh, that son of a bitch. He's like, man.
SPEAKER_01:Now did you ever see anything out of pocket up there? Or was it or was it for the most part things were necessary the way they were ran? I mean from your perspective.
SPEAKER_02:I wouldn't say certain things was necessary, but I mean, as as far as the inmate population, it had it had to be that way, you know, just based on the yard it is, a level 4180. It has to be militant. It's always tension. As soon as you wake up, it's tension. It's always a problem. But as far as you know how the staff get down, they went out their way. Oh, you did mention that. They went out their way. They went out their way to try to be disrespectful. Because a lot of them will tell you, like, look, I don't care if you assault me. I'm trying to get a paid leave anyway. Trying to go to Hawaii for me. Yeah, I'm trying to get a paid leave anyway. And they be serious about it. So you're like, man, I know it's a lose-lose. If I assault him, I'm going to the hole, I'm catching more time. And he ain't gonna care because he's about to get a paid leader, he's been talking about, or early retirement. Right. So, like I say, staff, they they go out their way, but as far as everything else, though, is it's necessary.
SPEAKER_01:Now that's disrespect and getting you guys to bite or baiting you. But what about the fighting of the crime? Searching for dope, searching for weapons, lockdowns, grid searches.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you know, Hard Desert, they come with the bullshit searches, they come with the missing metal. One time they locked us down, I think for three months, missing a shovel. Like, man, how is you missing a shovel? You know, it's like y'all really sent like y'all really sent us the Sacramento and they approved this shit? Y'all missing a shovel? For one, when you go in the building, you're being winded down. You're being petted and winded down. So how did the where does the shovel go? It's uh a super mass from security prison. They never filmed the shovel. They just went, they came, and you know in hard desert, how they do, they do a section at a time. So they're gonna come search a section a day.
SPEAKER_01:A section at a time? A section at a time.
SPEAKER_02:They're gonna come search a section a day. Then you know they use the guerrilla warfare tactics. So they might do six block A section a day, then it's quiet. Everybody, like, where they at? Oh, they're in A block B section. Then they might pop up over here. Right.
SPEAKER_01:I like the way that you identified the psychological warfare, the guerrilla warfare tactics. Did you learn this inside the prison system?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I learned all this inside. You know, prison is just psychological warfare for the most part. Like, like I say, my OG Sally told me as soon as I came in there, he said, Look, man, I'm gonna tell you one thing about prison. 85% of it is mental. Only 15% of it is gonna be physical. Was he right? He was right. Did you read while you were in there? I read a whole lot. Did my whole time reading, reading and working out. Did you find your faith in there? I did find my faith in there. I mean, I made I self-educated myself. I made uh three documentaries that's on YouTube in prison, video documentaries. I wrote the book in prison. Uh did like three or four music videos in prison.
SPEAKER_01:But all of this you did at Centinella? All that I did at Centinela. So you were just fucking hidden at hard at?
SPEAKER_02:When I was in Hard Desert, uh, yeah, I was talking to one of my boys uh in a uh that I was in a pen with the other day. All I did was read. And for the most part, when I was in Hard Desert, I did all the black literature: George Jackson, Nelson Mandela, Malcolm X, Nat Turner, Frederick Douglass, Asada Shakur, Angela Davis. So this is what we being given to read the 48 Laws of Power, 33 Strategies of War, the Order War, the Order the Warrior.
SPEAKER_01:And this whole fucking time, dude, you have it in your mind that you're gonna die in prison. Uh eventually ended up changing. Correct. I think around but in this part of time.
SPEAKER_02:At this part of time, yeah. You're just becoming the best that you can be. Exactly. Because my OG cell, I go in there, and you know, in the 180s, the sales is big, but in the corner, he got two big stacks of books. Okay. And you know, when I get in there, I don't got a TV. Because your people got to send you a TV and all that stuff. So he like, man, you can watch my TV. But you know me, I'm like, nah, I don't really know you. I'm like, what's that over there? He likes some books. I just start reading his books.
SPEAKER_01:Now people talk. People talk in there. Were people aware that you had 50 to life and you were a youngster?
SPEAKER_02:Well, eventually after we uh, well, not and not even when we came on lockdown, when we started doing the searches. Because you know, when you get searched, they cuff you up, then they take you in the kitchen on the in the table and seat you at the tables. So, you know, I'm new. So, you know, all the brothers, they like, hey man, uh Hennessy, what's your celly name? He like, oh, that's uh stay. So then they start asking questions, oh, what's up, young stay? Whoa, whoa, you know where you come from? Oh, yeah, you know how much time you got, this, this. And then, you know, eventually they find out. Now, with the response from them, like, damn, youngster, they got you. Nah, they like, damn, man, you you going home. What do you mean you're going home? They just, that's what they always would tell me. How if you had a 50 to life with the L? I guess just based on my age.
SPEAKER_01:That's very interesting because at that time those laws.
SPEAKER_02:At that time, the laws wasn't even there. Correct. But the cold part about it is when the laws changed, everybody said, I told you so. Damn.
SPEAKER_01:When you were doing your time at High Desert, did it matter to you that there was other homies that were only doing five years, three years going home?
SPEAKER_02:I'm gonna be honest, when I first got to High Desert, it was mostly uh all lifers. All hitters. People with with time. I didn't start seeing people that were short time when on level four until I got to the 270. Okay. But when I was at High Desert, it was mainly lifers, and a lot of them dudes had been down 12 years, 15 years, 17, 20 years. I still firmly believe that high desert. If I if I remember, I think me, my partner, and then this uh white that ran with the blacks was like the three youngest dudes on the yard. A white that ran with the blacks? Yeah. Who'd he run with? He ran with the bloods.
SPEAKER_01:Was that an issue amongst the other races?
SPEAKER_02:And he had to be escorted at all times. Did it ever kick off as a result of him? Uh not when I was there. All right. I think when he got the Pelican Bay, they uh attacked him.
SPEAKER_01:That happened at Centinela B Yard.
SPEAKER_02:But when I was at High Desert, they just kept escorting him at all times. By himself? No, we kept escort on him.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, you guys kept escort on him. Damn. So after you fucking learn the ropes the proper way in high desert, how do you get down a sentinela bus?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I got down to Sentinela on the bus. They was uh the counselor had called me and he like, hey man, all you guys that have been in the high desert four or five years, we giving you a chance to get out of here. He said, the only bad thing for you is it's in Southern California. Okay. I said, Oh yeah. I said, but I get to leave here. He said, Yeah, but it's your chance to leave here. I'm like, oh yeah, let me go.
SPEAKER_01:Real quick, you didn't know any other place besides High Desert. So to you that was normal. That was, yeah, it was just Was there other people transferring in and saying, like, damn, this fucking, it's it's rocking and rolling up here. It's active.
SPEAKER_02:No, everybody, I'm honestly, everybody that came from Centinela had a good story about Centinela. The economy was good.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. What I'm saying about High Desert. Did you realize how bad High Desert was while you were up there? Or were there other people coming there and be like, damn, what the fuck's up with?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's what happened. People started coming from places like Solano. And saying, man, I gotta go back. This shit up here is crazy. I ain't never experienced no shit like this. And to me, I'm like, huh? Ain't like, yeah, man, just wait when you leave here. Dude, they're not joking. And then boom, like I say, I got to Centinella. And when you got there? First thing I asked, I'm like, man, what's the politics? They like, oh man, uh, basically the yard was reopening from a level three to back to a level four. So basically everybody was still figuring it out. But even just walking the child, because you know, on the 270 you walk the child. So even that was like, damn, we walked the child.
SPEAKER_01:In high desert, when you were there, would you ever see different races playing sports with each other?
SPEAKER_02:No. No, that didn't happen until I was in Centinella. But when I was in Centinela after the dudes got released from the shoe, right? Like sometime after that is when that started happening. So that was like what 2015, 14, 15, 2016.
SPEAKER_01:But you even a couple years prior to that. But it was already desert that wouldn't happen. No, but at Centinela, prior to 2015, there was already changes that we had not been used to seeing. Oh yeah? Yeah. Weird stuff. And weird to us, it would probably be weird to you as well. Yeah. But you're not used to seeing it.
SPEAKER_02:When I got to Centinela, it was kind of like a culture shock. Like I say, but. Were you high strung, high tensed? Yeah, you know, you come from the 180, you always on high alert. And then, like I say, you used to being in the cell all day with your celly, now walking to child. So when you go to child and it's 100, 200 people in the you like, damn, what is people moving behind you? You looking around. Did you I'm even like that on the street sometimes, still though. It's still like a high alert, like what's going on, a high awareness. Were you tripping? Like, hey, this is a setup, something's gonna happen. No, I wasn't tripping. I was just watching everything. I was actually excited to be walking the child. What was your first summer like down there? My first summer. Uh the heat. It was like a hundred years. It was hot as hell. It was hot. Like 112, 115, 118. I remember one time we were working out. We on a pull-up bar. One of the blacks, he had to hit the heat of his pull-ups. He jumped down. As soon as he jumped down, he hit his head. Boom. Passed out? And passed out. He stroke. Damn, dude. Once you have a heat stroke. Amblems came. But yeah, that's one thing I be telling people too when you're in Centinella. Do not take that heat as a joke. I've seen plenty of people pass out. It gets hot.
SPEAKER_01:So you go from high desert to Santinella, you clearly have more freedom of movement.
SPEAKER_02:Of course, more freedom. I ain't gonna lie, though. Even when I got there and I touched my first cell phone.
SPEAKER_01:That's where you touched your first cell phone?
SPEAKER_02:That's where I touched my first cell phone at Centinella. I had just got out the uh out the hole. This one I had C6 and A5 in uh 2015. What were you doing in the hole? I had just got into uh me, I really I got into altercation. Uh then me and my partner ended up jumping somebody. And then a couple days later I came out of work, then I ended up getting jumped, and then my partner that was held me jumping, which was my celly, he was on the other side of the gate doing a one-on-one. So they took us all to the hole, then later on that that night, a couple of my other partners ended up getting a fight, and they ended up coming to the hole. So then the RGI ended up launching the investigation because there were so many incidents in that day. Were they just random, all those incidents? Or was it because of a reason? My two issues was from the same thing. We had jumped somebody homie, so they was trying to get their get back. And then the ones later on that night, they was both from Sacramento, but I think they had like some personal problems going on, but it just happened we was all from SAC. But I ended up coming out the hole, and then I ended up going to C5 to the other side of the gate, because you know they got one, two, three, then they got the fence up, then they got four and five. So I ended up going to C5, and then when I get there, I ended up getting another OG celly. But this time he'd been in prison 36 years. He was from uh LA from Swans. His name was still Bill. And uh when I get in there, he's like, Oh man, you know, you was out there fighting on the yard. I'm like, Yeah, he's like, Oh man, what you need to do, man, is just sit down, man, get you a phone, get you a grill, get some visits, taste these self-help classes. And he like, man, you gonna go home? This, this, and that. So I'm like, all right. So then I end up touching my search first cell phone. I was in a uh cell him. I grabbed a phone, somebody sliding in the door. That easy? Now, mind you, when I was in uh high desert, I'd never seen a phone. When I was on the streets, they didn't have an Apple phone yet. Correct. I think it came out like later on that year. So when I get the phone, the first thing I ask OG is how I turn it on. He like, what, youngster? You don't know to turn on the phone? I'm like, nah, I've been in jail this whole time. But uh once I started playing with them phones, man, it made time way different.
SPEAKER_01:When you left High Desert, it had to have been around 2014, 2015. It was November 2014. There was two changes in the department at that time. One was uh heavy hitters got let out of the shoe and hit all the main lines, and then the laws had changed where lifers were gonna go home. Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Is that did your mind mindset start to shift or change as a result of the see my mind my mind shifted in 2014 when they passed Senate Bill 260 and 261. Okay. But see, what that did was it wasn't a for sure release, it was hope. Based on what was the call? Behind Scott Budnick, and it was behind it, which was uh juveniles that got sentenced when they were 17 or younger, has to do 25 years, and then you're able just to go to the parole board. Wow. Not that you were up for uh actual release, that you had a chance to go in front of the parole board. So then that moved my my uh possible parole date from January 2057 to January uh 2031.
SPEAKER_01:We're not even there yet now.
SPEAKER_02:We're not even there yet now. See, next year I would have just been going up for uh not even parole, but it's uh constellation hearing. That's crazy. Next year I would have been going up for a constellation hearing, which says, hey man, you go to the parole board in five years, which is 2031, but before you go there, you need to get this, this, this, this, and that. Right. Which wouldn't have been no problem because I had already started preparing like I was going home anyway, so I had knocked out a gang of that stuff anyway. But in all actuality, I wasn't up for parole for another seven years, 2031. We in 2025. And that's under the new law, Senate Bill 260 that had passed in 2014. So that's what gave me hope in 2014 and had me start working towards my rehabilitation. You know, the anger management. And then, like you say, you mentioned the OGs that came out of the shoe. Well, we had an OG that came out of the shoe that was BGF. His name was Brother Malcolm. I think he did like 20, 25 years in the shoe, but I ended up being in college with him. And I remember I had got me a girl, and she like, oh, you need to come closer to home, this, this, this, and that. And then OG Malcolm from BGF, he told me, he like, hey man, don't do that. He like, man, stay here, graduate college, and you're gonna get out of prison. Dude, these dudes knew what time it was. And that's exactly what he told me. And I stayed, graduated to Imperial Valley College, had got my AA degree in psychology. And then You got an AA in psychology? Yeah, I got an AA degree in psychology. Damn, bro, you got a higher education than me, man.
SPEAKER_01:How do I make you feel? I got a high school diploma from Brawling, California.
SPEAKER_02:It's all that's just a uh uh a Stanford Society's approval, man.
SPEAKER_01:But uh Well, remember you said the CEOs used to be like, man, that's some bullshit.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Man, I used to be going to Imperial Valley College, and you know they used to give us our IVC photos, but you know, we'll be walking by and they'd be making little slick remarks, talking about, yeah, man, that's some bullshit, man. Y'all get to go to college, man. We gotta pay for no, y'all get to go to college for free. We gotta pay for our kids. Like, damn, what? And then I used to always reply back, shit, I am paying with time. True. True. But uh, like I say, Centinella, man, that's what opened up all the opportunities. I ended up getting my uh apprenticeship as a sewing machine operator, uh, certified through California. I ended up getting the uh customer service, the electrician, uh anger management, AA, uh criminal gangs anonymous. Uh I even took Shakespeare and playwriting. You know, all the rehabilitational classes. But uh one thing Go ahead. Go ahead. One thing I can say though is that when you're taking all them classes, they all got the the first step of being self-aware and holding yourself accountable. So then uh, you know, like a lot of my time I was I was mad. You know, when I first started doing my time and angry, like I told you, I was an atheist and had to go through all these changes. But once I started holding myself accountable and responsible, that's when things started to change. When did that happen? The accountability, uh the self-accountability. A little bit after I had that talk in 2015 with my OG Sally Steel Bill, because he told me, he said, Man, I've been here 36 years, man. He said, Man, this ain't no uh way to uh grow up watching the world through the uh cell window. So his uh conversations with him had a profound impact on my uh my incarceration and my rehabilitation and my stride to get out. And uh, you know, even when I did end up getting released, I seen my attorney the other day. He was telling somebody, oh man, this is my client. I told you you got a self out of prison. But it's from all the all the work I had put in while I was inside prison.
SPEAKER_01:Let's talk about rehabilitation, what it is, what it's not, and how it is effective. Because what you just said right now was that you did self-help, um, PIA behind the walls, you got your AA in psychology. To me, that's rehabilitation, and it worked. Is rehabilitation important in a prison system?
SPEAKER_02:Well, rehabilitation is important in the prison system, right? But that's if it's the correct rehabilitation. Because me, I kind of had self-rehabilitation because I had to take it upon myself to pursue it. But a lot of the things they try to rehabilitate you on in prison, you don't need. Like uh, we was talking earlier, you said on one of the yards they had auto uh auto mechanics or something. Yeah, delta yard. Now, see on the GPs, it's hard to find a trade like that. Because you can take auto, uh, what you say, auto mechanics or something? Uh auto body. Auto body. You can take auto body and use that on the streets. Correct. You're not really gonna take being a sewing machine operator on the streets. Right. You know what I'm saying? Or even uh so you're saying sh move around. What I'm saying is they need to how they got at San San Quentin, how they got the rehabilitation hub there with all them necessary programs that uh teaching you how to do content, teaching you how to do uh podcast and streaming and editing and all that stuff, they need to take all them same groups and move to other prisons. You can't just do this at San Quentin and say, oh, this is a rehabilitation hub. No, you have to do that everywhere else because everywhere else you got the 10 substance abuse classes. You don't need 10 substance abuse classes for what? You got to teach people things that they can take out and learn roofing, uh housing, uh solar panels. You gotta start implementing stuff like that that applies to the real world. So you're seeing more real-life job experience. Well, what I'm saying right now is they're they throwing rehabilitation on there just to get the money. Right. A facade. Like I say, you go to school now for two hours. You go to a class, they got like three or four classes in a day for two hours. I'd have been in prison and seen the same person going to the GED class for five years. Like, man, you don't got your GED yet. But the teachers, they ain't caring because they're getting paid. The only thing they're caring about is the CASAS test, and uh, and it's another test you take, they get paid for. I remember one time I go in there, I'm on the uh the money management uh uh uh uh uh self-help group, but she wants me to take a CASA test or something like that. And I told her I said, why do I need to take this? I graduated college. But when I take the test, it's to get her money. Absolutely. So since I refuse to take the test, she took me out the self-help group.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, wow, dude. Now, you mentioned too many um substance abuse classes, but there is a substance abuse problem in California prisons.
SPEAKER_02:There is a uh a problem, right? That's why they that's why they came with the uh the subaction program. You remember in the Title 15, the Subbastian used to be a controlled substance, but now it's legal. So it is a huge problem, but that's not the only problem. When you're trying to rehabilitate inmates, because it's more there's more inmates in there that don't got drug problems too. But you got to give everybody uh resources to be successful when they come out into society. It's like when I came out in society, since I wasn't on no parole or no probation, they didn't really have no programs for me. Right. So now I'm out here left to fend for myself. And like I say, when I'm in there, yeah, I did the college and stuff like that. But what meaningful trades they have for me that I could take and use out here. You know, it's a good thing that I got family support and stuff like that, because without that, who knows what would have happened. You know, I might have been out here committing another crime trying to get some money. So, like I say, they need uh more classes or or or more trades, you know what I'm saying, focused towards rehabilitation instead of just these things that they call them rehabilitation just for the money. And then you come out here and then you got the recidivism rates going up. You got Governor Gas and Newsom. Now he's talking about he's giving more money to the police because crime rates is going up when at first you was just letting everybody out. It's a manufactured chaos. Yeah. It's a manufactured cycle. But see, OG told me that. He said, Look, man, you better get out of prison right now while you can, because soon that window is gonna close and they're gonna go back to the old system.
SPEAKER_01:Do you know that I've been talking to numerous men like yourself and they've said the exact same thing, and I'm in 100% agreance? That window's closing for those lifers to get out.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I see it. I was telling somebody at the other day, I said, man, I said it's almost over now.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Once you got Gavinus talking about he's starting to give money back to the police because the crime rates is going up and he shouldn't have done, that means he's closing it. Because he's about to be out of office probably, and he's gonna be running on his next political campaign or wherever the case may be.
SPEAKER_01:Would you say, and I know you're a Centinella which has zero mental health programs because it has minimal to none mental health inmates.
SPEAKER_02:They don't have nothing for mental health CDC. I remember one time, you know, I just wanted I would just wanted to, not even that though. You can't even really go and talk to a psychologist. Like, say you got a problem. Okay. You can go in there maybe one time, but they're gonna tell you, they're gonna like, man, if it ain't nothing that we can't treat you, you know, with appeal, then you shouldn't come in here. Damn, like that. Okay. I don't know that's as good to even be talking about because a lot of people go in there like, say, like uh lifers, they gotta go in front of the parole board, but you gotta have psych hearings. So a lot of people be trying to go in there and talk to the site and talk to them about their problems so they can have that insight and showing that the parole board that look, man, I've been trying to talk to somebody, but they even shut that down because you can't be seeing a psych like that. Like you don't you don't need to see a site just to get on some medication so you can't be in the heat. Like right. You're talking about um like counseling sessions, exactly, like therapy sessions. Like that's part of rehabilitation, right? Oh, I agree 100%, dude. And in prison, you can't even get that on a regular if you wanted to.
SPEAKER_00:True.
SPEAKER_02:Because they're gonna look at it like, well, what's going on? Something's wrong with you.
SPEAKER_01:Well, now that we're on this freaking conversation, dude, I worked at Centinella and then Donovan. To me, from my experience, they give everything to the S and Y and the EOP.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. I even heard people come back from the parole board talking about, oh man, they told me if I want to parole, I gotta go S and Y. But I'm like, well, what's the why would you gotta go S and Y? You didn't come to prison at S and Y. You came to prison general population and you leaving how you came in. What's the problem with that?
SPEAKER_01:From your perspective, why do you think CDCR does that?
SPEAKER_02:Well, see, the whole thing about CDC, man, is to try to break your spirit from the strip searches to going in your cell, terrorizing your cell, uh trying to make it as hard as possible for your family to come visit you. Everything is really about punishment. That's not what they say. People say a lot of things, but do they actions show it? Right.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I agree with you 100%, dude. How do you feel that the SNY and the EOPs get everything under the sun?
SPEAKER_02:I think it's some bullshit for one, because you giving them perks and privileges for what? For being some some some dirt bags? For wilding out and being on general population, doing some shady stuff, and then running over here. Like it shouldn't even be no S and Y if you're not a uh pedophile or something like that. Like a lot of these dudes that's on S and Y now and got into drug debts, then ran over there because they ain't want to get their ass whooped over a drug debt or something like that, or they done stole some cell phones, and now they've been uh uh called thieves, so now they scared to take that discipline. They done ran over there to the S and Yard. So it's like y'all over here rewarding these people for what?
SPEAKER_01:Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:And all we doing on the GP is keeping everybody clean. Facts. I'm saying you go to the GP yard is is is respect. Uh the COs ain't gonna be disrespected like that. Everybody gonna take care of their young, and that's how the line stay in order. But y'all rewarding these people from going over here to an S and Y yard, creating gangs over there.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, shit.
SPEAKER_02:They probably they probably got more incidents than we done had on the GP yard. Times times 20. But they being rewarded. Like, it shouldn't be like that.
SPEAKER_01:What's your take on all those S and Y games? Because there's a lot. There's a lot.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know, man. I don't know. Uh well, they already trying to integrate everybody back together anyway.
SPEAKER_01:What's your opinion on the integration? Forced integration.
SPEAKER_02:Well, the forced integration is some some nonsense. For one, you're creating a problem. You're creating a bunch of, you're you're trying to mix people that you know or know good with people that are trying to go home that's been programming, positively programming on GP yours, mining their own business. Now you're trying to mix them with some people that stole, that uh told on whether it was laws about what they had, what they didn't have, just so they can go to SY. Because when you go to S and Y, you got to debrief. So you're trying to put debriefers with people that's been on the GP line, knowing what the outcome of that's gonna be. So you're trying to create problems because, like you say, we're in a cycle where lifers are going home. And then they mad because they had to let uh the dudes out of the shoe. Right. So now they're trying to find a way to get back at these dudes. Okay, we're gonna let y'all out the shoe, but now we're gonna make it as hard as possible for y'all to go home and program. Because why all these people that y'all don't like, that y'all that we know that y'all don't want to be on the line, we're gonna throw them on the line and force y'all hand. Facts.
SPEAKER_01:If what if I was some white guy named Bill, and I said, Who cares, mix them all up? Why is mixing them all up a problem?
SPEAKER_02:Well, because once you mix these two groups, you know violence is gonna occur. Right. It's just prison. The GP, we have to keep the yard clean. And you either gonna be on a yard that's good or you're not. You know, they prison look at it like a job. You know, you either wanna keep a good career or you don't want a career.
SPEAKER_01:You want to be homeless on the fucking street.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. You want to be in a dog eat dog road, which is the S and Yard. Right. The every man for himself, all these weirdos over here. Yeah. Or you want to be over here programming with the dudes that's solid. Correct. And in order to do that, you have to keep the yard clean. In the administration, you know, you got a guy that's sitting at the seat, he don't care.
SPEAKER_01:Correct.
SPEAKER_02:He gets to go home at the end of the day. And it's more than his advantage if we throw everybody in one thing, let the violence go up, and say these guys are still animals and rehabilitation ain't working. And now the lifers don't get to go home, and now they're gonna be talking about, well, let's uh go back to the shoe program, this, this, this, and that, because they're trying to create order out of chaos when they created the chaos in the first place.
SPEAKER_01:Do you would you be able to do a better job of running the system?
SPEAKER_02:I believe I can do a better job, especially after living in the system 24-7 and seeing what they do right, what they do wrong. Don't get me wrong, all COs ain't bad. I done met some cool COs. There for a job, do they work, uh, don't give you a hard time, real respectful. So you do got COs like that in there, but for the most part, the system is corrupt. And then what happens when you give a corrupt system power? Like they had an experiment where they uh Stanford experiment. Yeah, they had the Stanford experiment where they made some inmates and some COs, and it showed that when you put people in positions of power, they're gonna abuse it.
SPEAKER_01:Did you know that Green was as cutthroat to themselves as well?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I didn't heard uh at Hardella they had the green wall, and they they they used to go to the parking lot and get them up though. They used to go to the parking lot and fight. So I I'm saying then you every once in a while you'll catch them uh sneak dissing each other, oh he's a bitch. Or he told on me. So I knew they was cutthroat.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Not only that though, you know they they uh they know when somebody's gonna get stabbed. Do you know that they know when somebody's gonna be getting stabbed? Man, you know. No, I know when you see somebody getting stabbed and you see the police not responding and they watching, they know. I remember I came out, I'm in Centinela. Come out, come fresh out of the kitchen. Mexicans kill a dude right on the yard. I'm talking about they stabbed him 60, 70 times. He on the ground crying for his mama. CEO's just watching. Finally recall the yard. Next day, back to program.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That was the thing about CEOs know they don't, they don't, you know, when they because you can tell by the reaction. When they don't know, they fast. When they know they just watching.
SPEAKER_01:You know what's funny is that you're not wrong, number one. And number two is when the new young guy tries to go like that, the OG will come back and says, sit back, kick back, youngster. Wait a little. I don't know why the rhyme behind or the reason, man, but um how did that make you feel as a as an inmate when you're watching the police, the cops, watch a murder go down? Does that make you feel helpless?
SPEAKER_02:I ain't gonna lie to you. The first time I seen a stab when I was in high desert, I'm like, oh shit. But then after you start seeing them, it's just like, oh, you just start laughing. Like, damn, you got stabs? Oh man. Oh, the COs? No, I'm talking about the inmates. When you're an inmate and you, you know, the first time you see a stab, and it's like, okay, this is real. But after you've been desensitized and you see them stabs over and over, it's just like another day. It's just another day. And I'm saying, at that, you don't even think about it. The CO's gonna help or not. Because it doesn't really matter at that point. Yeah, at that moment you've been in prison long enough, you already know that you your own last line of defense. So that's why you out there working out. You know what I'm saying? Whatever you're doing, because you mentally always preparing for war. I was like, I was watching your other interview. Oh, you was asking our boy, like, oh, was you working out uh you know, to prepare for war? This guy, yeah, the guy uh he like, oh nah, but I don't believe that. I believe everybody in prison from each racial group.
SPEAKER_01:Well no, I agree because I used to watch him on the lockdowns. I used to watch him do the burpee thing.
SPEAKER_02:I believe everybody is training in prison for war. Facts. Because you know, at any little moment, the yard can blow. And everybody out there, especially the Saranios. Have you been involved in race riots? I've been involved in one race riot with the others. Where at? In the high desert. Who what were the numbers like? Well, you know, we always outnumber the others. The others only be like the others only. They can hold it down, though. They can hold it down, but they only be like 10, 15 people. No, but they can hold it down. Yeah, no, they do their shit. They do their shit. I'd have seen one run all the way across the yard. I'm talking about Superman all the way across the yard. Yeah. But uh, yeah, like 10, 15 others, 60, 70 blacks.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But uh, like I say, prison up, man, everybody in there preparing and training for war.
SPEAKER_01:Did you ever in your mind wonder what it would be like to kick it off with the Southerners? Oh, I did a couple times. In your mind? Yeah. And did you think it was not gonna be a good idea or a shitty situation?
SPEAKER_02:Nah, I was thinking more like them. Sometimes these blacks be scary. Okay. Because you know, when certain incidents happen, but you know, on level fours, everything is about being diplomatic because you know it's money that gotta be made. People don't want the program to stop. Right. For whatever the case may be. So some instances you'd be like, man, you know, that issue right there, motherfuckers should have just gone.
SPEAKER_01:That changed though. That what you're talking about right there, in the past, they would have gone. Yeah, it was all the way, man. It was it was fucking crazy. Did you end up going to Bravo Yard as well?
SPEAKER_02:I only went to Bravo Yard for a month. That was uh 30 days before I got out of prison.
SPEAKER_01:So from the time you got introduced to the Scott Budnick uh prop that we were talking about, what was the actual proposition or law that changed that got you up?
SPEAKER_02:Well, for me, it was a series of ones because it started with the Prophet 57. Prop 57. And then from the Prophet 57 stem, Senate Bill 1391, which was when they admitted it again, juveniles that are 14 or 15 can no longer be tried as adults. Boom. Then I filed that, but it wasn't retroactive because I exhausted all my appeals and my case wasn't open.
unknown:Whoa.
SPEAKER_02:So then people versus Lair came, but he won it because his case was still open on appeal. So then years went by, that didn't fall through for me. And then some dude named People versus Heard out of San Diego, I guess he read the Title 15 or whatever he did, but it said under 1170.2, uh juveniles that got life without parole can petition for resentencing after 15 years that they meet certain criteria. And see, he didn't have life without parole. But what he did have was 180 years or something like that. He had just a lot of years. So what he told the courts is under I should be equally protected, since my sentence equals to the functional equivalent of life without parole, meaning that even though I don't have life without parole, I'm still sentenced to die in prison, which is the equivalent to having life without parole. So when he did that, he ended up winning this case. And when he won that, it opened up the floodgates for everybody that had the equivalent to life without parole. So now the argument was in court what constitutes the functional equivalent of life without parole. Now, mind you, all these different counties is saying 50 years or more. Now, this is how shady it is. Sacramento. But my Asian partner, uh, shout out to my boy Jordan too, and my boy Gore. But uh my Asian partner, he had a partner, Sacramento County. He filed the Pew versus Heard. They sent him down to juvenile court because he had 50 years of life and they said it was a functional equivalent. Now, when I filed mine, when the verdict, when that, when the the decision comes in, the judge tells me that I'm gonna deny you on a people versus herd because I don't feel like 50 years of life is the functional equivalent to life without parole. But as of January 1st of 2024, we just passed 1172.1, which gives a judge discretion to recall your resentencing on her on the judge's own account. And she said, so even though I'm denying you, I'm gonna grant you under 1172.1 and I'm gonna consider recalling it by myself, the judge. But she said, before I recall your sentence, I'm gonna get a DA a chance to respond and say why I shouldn't do it. So when she does that, I called my attorney. He said, Man, I just got the papers. He said they denied you, I don't know why, and they want me to do another brief. And then when I explained to him, he said, Oh, you know what? He said, What it is is she wants us to reach a deal. Because she don't want to, she don't want to overturn your sentence and send you back down to juvenile court under 1170.d, people versus her, because if she does that, you're going back to juvenile court and your uh your case is gonna be sealed because you're gonna be sentenced as a juvenile, and it's like the crime never happened. So she said, he said, what it is is she wants everybody to win. You go home and they uphold uh dull conviction. So my attorney reached out to the DA, hey man, would you mind uh agreeing to a deal, voluntary manslaughter, 11 years, time served, no parole, uh no probation, and a strike. So the DA, like, all right, I'm gonna think about it. So two weeks go by. Mind you only got like 60 days to appeal my decision or something, or something like that, 30 days or something, or 40 something shit. But uh like 30 days later, from when he reached out to her, the DA finally gave uh uh called him back and was like, we're gonna do the deal. So boom. He like, man, call your people, tell them you're going home, a couple weeks, this, this, and that, we just gonna do the paperwork. So mind you, I'm like, all right, for sure. I call my people as I tell them. I go to the Zoom court. He telling me I'm about to go home. I go in there. The DA told my we ain't ready. Uh, we want to put the court off. So my attorney like, nah, we're not doing no more uh put-offs because Mr. Stevens only got three more days left until he can appeal. Right. If he don't appeal within the next three days, he's not gonna be able to appeal it. So you either gonna do the deal or we just gonna peel it. He's gonna get resentened and go to juvenile court anyway. Right. So they tell me, hold on, they go leave out. They come back. The jail's like, you know what? I'm gonna get a DA 72 more hours, get the paperwork straight. They come back uh June 3rd, sentence me, uh, resentence me. Matter of fact, I knew it was over too. But this is what the DA do though. The first time he didn't have my victim family. The second time the DA came in, had the victim family. On the Zoom call? No. They I was the only one on Zoom because I was all the way in Centinela. And my attorney told me, he said, man, if you go back down to the county jail when you get resentenced, you're gonna have to you gotta be released from prison. So they're gonna take you to reception, then you're gonna have to wait in reception, and then you're gonna have to be released from the prison. He said, But if you go to Zoom, you already in prison, so you're gonna get released. So they bring the family in, this, this, and that. They say what they say. The judge, like, okay, I'm sorry. I regret it. Regret to say, but I'm about to record Mr. Stephen's sentence and give him a second chance at life. She ended up vacating my first degree murder, giving me the voluntary manslaughter, took away the 50 years of life, gave me 11 years for the voluntary uh manslaughter, then uh no parole, no probation, because I ended up doing 17 years, six months. Uh, took the deal for 11 years. So the extra six years, six months went towards my parole. Oh, okay. So it cleared it. Yeah. I was actually over like three years, six months.
SPEAKER_01:Where did they come up with the manslaughter of 11 years? Well the 11, where did that come from?
SPEAKER_02:The I guess that's what the manslaughter carry. Okay. It carried six, eleven, and I think twenty-one or something. All right. So they gave me the midterm. And then uh ended up getting resentenced June 3rd, three days later, they released me. June 6th. Three days. My attorney told me, look, man, 14 days after 10 business days. I'm sitting in the cell, I'm working out, I hear the returned door pop. I look at the door, it's a pro lady. What building were you in? I was in, uh at this time I went level three for a month. I was in B4. Hear it pop, boom. I'm look, I'm washing her lips. I see her mumble it, uh, Stevens. Because you know they gotta talk to the intercom, Stevens. Yeah. Next thing. Open the door. She like, uh, come sign your papers. You knew what it was for? I knew what it was for. Were you happy? Hell yeah, I was happy. Were you keeping the happiness in, or were you happy? Hell no. I'm there. I signed the papers. Uh the homie calling me down the tier, Bo Rue. I'm like, what's up? You like, Bloss, you gonna let me get your TV? Did you give your shit away? Man, I went immediately and gave him my TV. Gave him my TV, boom, boom. I gave my other powers my hygiene and stuff like that, my bin. I'm thinking I'm about to sleep. That whole night I don't get no rest. Good thing we had the tablets, though. Yeah, I was anxious. Had the tablets. I'm sitting there talking to. Next thing I know, it's like 3:34 o'clock. They pop my door. Steven's release. I'm like, oh yeah, it's game time. Was that a long night for you? Oh, it was a long night. Long night. Long night. Longest night ever had in prison. I bet. I bet. Oh, shit. Boom. They come get me, walk me out, boom, boom. Then we come back, they doing breakfast. And mind you, only a few people knew I was going home. So people were seeing me. They're like, hey man, where you going? I'm like, man, I'm going home.
SPEAKER_00:They're like, what?
SPEAKER_02:And then next thing I know, I get out, boom, boom. Were you all in your blues? I was in my blues. And then you go to where R? Yep. Go to R. You sit in the uh the holding tank, and then you be processed out. And then you jump on the uh the van, the little bus, go through there. We was going through the gates. The CEO, like, man, who y'all got in there? They like some, oh, you got Stevens in there? They're like oh man, tell him congratulations. He deserves it. Then van. I get out, my brother come pick me up. I got the video. I jump out the van. The CEO told my man, he ain't even on parole or nothing. That's it, huh? That's it. I grab my property out of the van, jump out, see my brother. I ain't seen my brothers since 2008. See my brother walk up, hugging, see my cousin, jump in the car. I end up going, uh, I messed up. I switch out my clothes, I'm going live on Instagram. And then I got this vlogger. He takes a screenshot of me, post it on his page. Now everybody knows I'm out. So now the whole, I think sitting out like 10 hours away from Sacramento, the whole 10 hours, my brother's phone blowing up. Yo, little brother, how'd you look? Because everybody can't believe it. I just had two licenses for 50 years. Right. And even though I told people I was coming home in 30 days, did nobody still believe it. So now his phone blowing up. So we get to a point now. I'm like, look, man, don't even hand me the phone, man. Tell him to stop calling. I'm listening to music, I'm chilling. Did you grub right away? Uh I wouldn't even. I'm gonna keep real. My brother had to force me to eat.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:My whole thing was I was trying to get back to Sack. So we ended up stopping at Chick-fil-A. He told me, oh man, they chicken sandwiches good. This, this, that shit was alright.
SPEAKER_01:They are good, man.
SPEAKER_02:I would have taken a McDonald's chicken sandwich.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know, man.
SPEAKER_02:Chicken's good. That shit tastes regular. No, it doesn't. Man, I'm trying to tell you. He told me, oh man, they got this sauce on there, this, that. Uh man, miss me with that. Buffalo sauce ranch, man. It's all good. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01:So you end up going back to Sack.
SPEAKER_02:I ended up going to Sack. Uh, mind you, I told my grandma she didn't even know I was coming home. How was she? I told her, I said, look, grandma, I'm gonna call you. I knew I was going home the next day, too, because I just signed the papers. I'm like, man, I'm gonna call you tomorrow. Boom. Pull up to her house. She came out. She like, oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01:Had she ever visited you in prison?
SPEAKER_02:Uh-huh. She came when I was in High Desert Incidental. I think she visited me like, oh, and she came to my college graduation. But uh, I think she down there passed out. I was holding her for a minute. Boom. That shit was crazy. When did it sink in that you were a free man? Shit, as soon as I walked out them gates. You were you were good. Didn't think about prison out of once. Didn't even look back. Oh, it's crazy too, right? Because you know you gotta go to the checkpoints. The border patrol checkpoints. The border patrol checkpoints. Man, we get pulled over. They smell a little weed. I'm out of prison 20 minutes. They want to search the car.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:They get to search in the car, they bring the dog. I'm like, man, that's some straight bullshit. Police harassment.
SPEAKER_01:But isn't weed legal now? To a degree?
SPEAKER_02:Weed is legal. I think what it was is my brother told him I was fresh out of prison. So they were tripping? So they was kind of like, all right, now we got a reason to fuck with them. But uh now after that, though, I ended up getting here, surprising my grandma. Uh it just been doing me ever since. You're still in you still have homies in prison. I got a gang of homies in prison. You think about it? I didn't oh I downloaded the GTL app. Uh uh, I don't really message them, but I send them like pictures and videos and stuff. I send them pictures and videos all the time. Do you hope for their release? Yeah, every day. That's why I tell a lot of people, a lot of reasons I do be going on these podcast interviews and stuff, you know, to speak for people with life or life without parole. That uh, because I know like as soon as I posted the first video when I got out, it went viral. But it like brought like a lot of hope to people that got life and life without parole. Because, you know, you be in prison is so small, you get to meeting people from different places. So when a lot of people heard I was out, they gave them like a lot of hope. Because they know, you know, I've been down 17 years, six months, had 50 years with two life sentences and now I'm out. So now they know it's possible for them. Because, you know, the whole time I was in there, I used to always tell people what the OG told me, named Sadiq. He like, man, even though you got life, always prepare for like you going home tomorrow. Damn. He like, man, because you never know. Right. And once I started really listening, I started preaching that message to other inmates. Especially if I was cool with you. I used to try to get them in self-help groups, different self-help groups, uh, different rehabilitational programs, just always trying to talk me to doing something positive that might eventually uh bring their release. Because I was one of the dudes, I'm in the law library one or two times a week. I might not even have nothing to do in a loyal library. I'm just over there looking for something new, uh, reading different stuff. And I'm always bringing that back to the yard, trying to give people hope. Even when I was getting a release, I was telling my celly I was about to go home, and you could tell by the remarks he was making that he thought he was going home before me. Oh, yeah, when I go home, I'm gonna give you my chain. I'm like, all right, well, what happened if I go home before you? Yeah. Then fast forward when I get out, he's like, oh man, I thought you was crazy. Yeah. So, like I say, I'm always trying to uh get those with life or life without parole hope because I got a lot of friends in there with life and life without parole, especially those with life without parole, because that's like you don't have no release date. But you always got to keep that hope because the way things is changing, you never know when it might be your turn. And if you ain't preparing for that turn, you might miss it. Because it is a possibility. It is a possibility because I remember, you know, once upon a time, people never thought I was coming home. Even people that I see out in society today that smile, shake my hand, laugh my face. Same people that thought I was never coming home, never sent me a letter, never sent me a soup, no nothing. And now that you're out, they expect something from you. But like I say, man, I always try to preach hope to those that's behind the walls because I know it's possible. How would you define what being a man is? I would say being a man is, you know, standing up on principles, on solid principles, on righteous principles, uh, doing what's right even when the trend is going against you. Because you know, we're in a day and age whereas a lot of people like to follow trends, whether it's right or wrong. But being a man is having to be able to stand up under that pressure uh when you know that it's right, no matter what other people are saying. You know, holding your ground, uh sticking to a certain code and conduct and ethics, uh holding yourself responsible, accountable, uh admitting when you're wrong, being able to accept uh constructive criticism, you know, them is things that uh having integrity, you know, doing the right thing when people ain't looking. You know, that all going to, you know, uh being a man.
SPEAKER_01:What words would you have for an audience member that in their belief system they believe, oh man, this individual committed murder, they should be to spend the rest of their life in prison when you have your exact story like you just shared?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I would say, you know, everybody deserves a second chance. Because I mean, I understand that uh, well, to a certain extent, I can understand, you know, somebody losing a loved one might feel like or losing a son because, you know, that's a pain that's untold. You know, a parent losing their child or a family member losing their sibling, that's, you know, a pain untold, and you can't tell nobody how to feel about that. But all I can say is, you know, everybody deserves a second chance, and I believe that everybody, you know, should be able to give the opportunity to be able to redeem themselves and, you know, try to do something positive in the world and change that negative into a positive and hopefully, you know, help others. Because if we stick somebody in the system whereas they just getting worse off and they're not rehabilitating themselves, then, you know, you ain't no better off than them.
SPEAKER_01:From your experience and vantage point, do you see that the society and government pinch people at the bottom against each other?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it happens all the time. You know, it's the old uh DeVard and Conquer strategy. You know, we throw some crumbs over here, we throw some crumbs over there, and then watch all, you know, uh go for it when the whole time they live in how they want to live, Fox. So Epstein Island type shit. They do it all the time, you know, like the poor whites against the the blacks or things like that, or the the blacks and the uh the blacks against the Hispanics or the Hispanics against the blacks and stuff like that, and people fall for all the time. Oh, you know, the black people don't ever defend the Hispanics? Like, how don't we? Y'all didn't profited off all our bills, the Civil Rights Act, y'all prospered off of that. I'm saying all these things we set the blueprint for. And people, you know, tend to go into that, you know, y'all not helping us, but how are we not? Do you think that the media plays a role in dividing? Well, the the media is a controlled propaganda machine for the government. So, you know, they just show you what you know they want to show you. Like I remember my grandma went to Israel and Palestine, and then she came back to America. She said, Well, you'd be surprised on how different the news is from out there and out here, and how the desensitized, I mean not desensitized, but how basically controlled the American media is. You know, they just show you what they want to show you. They show you all negatives, put all this chaos in your mind, and then end with one positive thing. But they, you know, the media is is uh built to keep you in fear. They play on people's fear. Facts.
SPEAKER_01:100%. Where where can people find you now? Instagram, what's your handle, and YouTube?
SPEAKER_02:Well, you can find me on Instagram at uh big underscore stay underscore. You can find me on YouTube, uh The Prisoner's Voice, or type in Big Stay. Uh you can check out my documentaries, Low State of Struggle, Young Black Men in America, the second one, uh Beautiful Elevation, the third one, Jamel Stevens, uh Brothers Incarcerated, the fourth one, Big Stay finally free. Uh, you can get my book on uh Amazon, Low State of Transition. I got another book coming out, 365 days of inspirational morning quotes. Uh we still at it.
SPEAKER_01:If I'm a youngster in the hood and I want to reach out to you and pick your brain, am I able to?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm open to uh giving anybody advice. Uh I respond back to all DMs. I'm not Hollywood. I hear you.
SPEAKER_01:It gets busy at some point, though, dude.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it does, but man, you know, like I done had people, I done been at work, man. It's been two o'clock in the morning. A female called me, told me she's about to commit suicide. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm saying, or I didn't been on Instagram, get a message. Right. A kid asked me, uh, what I tell a kid that was thinking about committing suicide, and I had to make him a video. So, you know, I always try to respond to people's DMs because you never know what people might be going through. And you might say that the one thing that could change them. Uh I always want to give a shout out to my publisher, uh Laquana. She didn't publish like 18, 19 books. She's here with me today.
SPEAKER_01:Any last closing words? You the floor is yours, dude. This was a phenomenal interview.
SPEAKER_02:Well, man, my words, man, the people would be, man, to set your own trends, uh, set your own blueprint. Uh never stop chasing your dreams. Always invest in yourself. Never count yourself out. When it gets hard, don't give up. Keep going because that's when something's about to give in. As long as you can open your door, you got opportunity, no excuses. You got one life to live. Time is short. Uh, find your purpose and make it worth it. Hey, man, say, man.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you, dude, for coming on the show, man, and sharing your message to the world. I appreciate it. I'm so good. There you guys have it, folks. Another banger, man. I truly believe we're doing the Lord's work over here and sharing the messages that need to be shared to the people that need to hear it. If you like what you saw, make sure you hit the subscribe button. Love you. Keep pushing forward.
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