Inside Law Enforcement: Lost Protections, Legal Paths, And Real Costs

Imagine swearing an oath to serve, only to discover that the rules you enforce don’t fully protect you. We sit down with attorney Mila Aretunian to unpack the hidden tradeoffs of a badge: administrative interviews where silence means termination, social media policies that muzzle speech, and a workplace culture that too often rewards popularity over process. Mila brings hard-earned clarity on the difference between “wrong” and “illegal,” why vicarious liability matters when leadership decisions cause harm, and how to translate lived frustrations into documented claims that courts can actually weigh.

We dig into the split between criminal and administrative investigations, where Miranda protections often vanish and compelled statements can be used against officers. Mila explains how departments litigate aggressively with public money while plaintiff firms absorb steep costs up front, and why single verdicts rarely change entrenched incentives. Real reform, she argues, comes when legislation lifts accountability from aspiration to obligation—think pension consequences for proven misconduct, stronger accommodation duties, and fewer avenues for quiet resignations that bury the truth.

There’s hope in practical protections too. Under California’s FEHA, officers with PTSD, anxiety, or even chronic insomnia can request accommodations without disclosing diagnoses. Seeking treatment for substance abuse is protected when you ask for rehab; your job must be held. We outline how to document requests, involve HR, and protect your health while building a defensible record. We also tackle public employee speech doctrine—why officers face narrower First Amendment protections than private citizens—and how to navigate that reality with strategy, networks, and behind-the-scenes legal guidance.

If you or someone you know is weighing whether to stay and fight or step back to protect mental health, this conversation offers a roadmap: document everything, get help early, know your rights, and push for laws that realign incentives from cover-ups to consequences. If this resonates, subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review telling us which protection you think most officers don’t know they have.

Transcript

New Guest, New Studio

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hector Bravo on in chaos is now in session.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Welcome back to our channels, Warriors. We are still growing. Today, a different location, same podcast. Another special guest, man. With all the stuff going on in law enforcement and legal rights, I found an attorney by the name of Mila who knows her stuff and she's an expert in this area. What up, Mila?

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Hi, how are you? Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Thank you. Thank you for hooking this studio up. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Thank you.

Do Cops Lose Civilian Rights?

SPEAKER_02 0:36

For sure. So we've talked offline, online, and we've come to the conclusion that when you join law enforcement, you kind of lose some rights or you're actually subjected to a different set of rules than a regular employee.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Absolutely. There are a lot of rights that unfortunately law enforcement officers lose, anyone in law enforcement really, um, rights and privileges that civilians have that we don't even really appreciate until we lose them.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Absolutely. People see like the gly- the all the the retirement package, the benefits, the pay and the title, but they don't really know the hidden costs, right? Um we put together a couple bullet points that we'll go over.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

And let's just start knocking them out.

Culture, Retaliation, And The Boys’ Club

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yeah, well, I wanted to say, you know, it's interesting because you've sent me some cases, and I get a lot of law enforcement cases because I'm one of the only attorneys locally who is, I guess, brave enough to take on those cases. I mean, I really believe in what I do, and so I'm not scared. And they fight really hard. Law enforcement agencies fight really hard because they have all the attorneys. They don't have a limitation like a company, like, oh, I don't want to spend$200,000 litigating it. No, our taxes are paying for that. So they fight really hard. It's still, you know, there's been a lot of changes and assistance, but it's still primarily a boys' club. We can't we can't avoid that, you know, and they don't treat women with the most respect. It's just the culture internally. So you have a lot of things that happen internally and people get fired or treated badly, retaliated against. God forbid you make a complaint and become a snitch.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

You mean there's no whistleblower laws?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Say goodbye to any chance of promotion or anything else. So it's it's interesting because people will call me often and I always say, you know, there's a difference between something that's wrong versus something that's illegal.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

I actually had somebody tell me that that I was making a complaint over, and I'm like, they said being an asshole isn't illegal. And I'm like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Facts. It it's true. Like, unfortunately, just you know, a mean supervisor is not illegal unless they're mean to you because of a protected class. Right. And even that in law enforcement only goes so far. So, you know, we get a lot of leads in, and most of them, unfortunately, we have to turn down. So, and the funny thing is, a lot of people say, Oh, you must like not like law enforcement because you bring these cases against law enforcement all the time. But it's hilarious to me because I actually have the utmost respect for law enforcement officers. I think they do uh incredible things. I mean, my family's from Russia, and coming to America, I actually wanted to become a lawyer because seeing how the justice system worked here was mind-blowing. It's it's wild. Mind-blowing. I mean, in Ukraine, granted, I grew up in Ukraine after the fall of the Soviet Union. We were refugees to Ukraine, but we grew up like there was no law and order. People were getting killed over$200, like heads chopped off. Like it's nothing. No one investigated, nothing was done to like just nothing.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Like Mexico.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

We would go. I remember like my mom would go and to buy like like um it was called cobasa, like it was the only meat you could find, and it was basically like salami. But you'd wait in line for like five hours, and then you get this little piece of cobasa and you cut it open, and actually it's like this much meat, and the inside is cardboard. And like they would get away with that because no one cared. There was no law. And we came here and I was like, oh my God, like laws are followed, there's law and order. I remember like going to Ralph's and like seeing all the like fruit stands outside of Ralph's, and I was like, no one's stealing these? What? Like, no one's coming up and just taking them and running?

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Right, the honor system.

Wrong Vs Illegal: What Courts See

SPEAKER_00 4:43

But no one appreciates how law enforcement works here because they don't know any different. And the thing is, even in Russia, where law enforcement is crap, police officers are treated like royalty. They're given so much respect. Yes, police officers and and teachers, and or at least in the former Soviet Union, I don't know how it is now, but police officers, veterans, and teachers, those are like the three professions that were really upheld to very high respect. And I came here and I realized like that wasn't the case here. And you see police officers serving our people and putting their lives on the risk on the line, and they're just treated so badly. And a lot of times, unfortunately, I mean, I'm generalizing, and of course, there's exceptions to every rule, but it's a popularity contest. The be internally, it's there's not like processes and procedures that are very strictly followed like you would in a corporate structure. It's like whoever is liked, whoever is kind of on the in-crowd, they're the ones who get pushed and promoted. And all it takes is one thing not to be liked, and then you're kind of screwed.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

It's like Game of Thrones.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

If you've ever seen Game of Thrones, I haven't, but I've heard. And and yeah, so I mean, to me, I think what the work you're doing is so important because you're actually not against law enforcement, you are very much pro-law enforcement because you want people to know their rights, to understand their rights, and to have equal opportunities.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Hey Warriors, if you haven't already signed up for our all-new website, HectorBravoShow.com, make sure you sign up at the link below, HectorBravoshow.com, to watch explicit, uncensored, never before seen prison footage. With that, love you. Keep pushing forward. Well, I mean, when I break when you break it down like that, like all I really care about is rights, right? Like the judicial system, Lady Liberty, she's blindfolded, she has something over here, something over here. Right. It's like, hey, we swore an oath to do the right thing, but after 16 years, I saw a lot of not good things happening.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah, yeah. And you, you know, you're speaking up about it, which is why you're catching so much heat.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

It's costly.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

It is, it is, and it's very courageous and brave of you to do that.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

I appreciate that. Um Yeah, just when we'll get into it, but the latest is all the search warrants. I've probably been served seven electronic search warrants since I left three years ago.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

That's it's nuts that they it still follows you. So, okay, so let's get into some of the interesting parts.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

So, how it relates in the California Department of Corrections and rehabilitation, there's two types of investigation administrative investigation and criminal investigation. And I'm pretty sure that's what that covers.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Criminal, everybody knows you have the right to remain silent. Okay, they must read you your Miranda rights. Um but also in the administrative policy, it is clearly written in the policy, failure to cooperate in an investigation will lead to termination.

From Soviet Chaos To U.S. Law And Order

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Yeah. And that's that's the problem. And the thing is, a lot of times the officers don't know they don't what it is, and they're not it's not made clear and it's kind of vague. And then they don't want to not answer because if they do, then it looks like they're hiding something. But anything they do answer, even if it's coerced, can and is used against them. In fact, I've had quite a few people call me about uh subpoenas that they received investigations because of data that your channel released, and a bunch of officers were um taken in and questioned. They weren't given Miranda rights and they weren't told if it was a criminal or just a non-criminal investigation. And we really wanted to take those cases, but unfortunately, there was nothing really legally we could do to fight that.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

They also were denied representation.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

They were denied representation, but if it's an investigative and the other thing is they were taken their cell phones were taken from them. And there were there were quite a few folks that called me about this. Their personal cell phones were taken from them, but they weren't supposed to have them on them.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

So when they had them on them, they had no expectation of privacy to them, and they were taken away. And it's just it's such a mess.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Now here's a kicker. What if I told you all those officers that endured that as a result of what I've been doing, that contacted you? What have I told you? I've literally said not one word to them prior to them getting contacted.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

They they didn't even know who you were. I reached out to you. I was like, hey, what's going on? Why am I getting all these calls?

SPEAKER_02 9:21

So from your perspective, does that seem like a them reaching? Overreaching?

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Possibly. Shooting blindly? I mean, uh absolutely, but is it illegal? You know what I mean? That's the problem. Is it ethical? Absolutely not. And if my employer came to me and sat me down and coerced statements out of me and took my private cell phone away, that would be illegal and I would sue them for all kinds of things. But unfortunately, as law enforcement officers, they just don't have those same protections. But it's a pretty toxic environment in law enforcement. Every case I've worked, and I've worked quite a few, people are really mean to each other.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

It's the most toxic work environment. And I deployed to Iraq for one year and it was not even that toxic, toxic. And people are trying to legitimately kill me, and it was not toxic at all.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

And that's the thing. Like I think, well, as a veteran, you have a feeling of unity.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

And or as a, you know, uh, someone in military. But in the law enforcement world, there is no unity. I feel like everyone's just pointing fingers at each other. Everyone's just mean to each other. I mean, it's just it's just awful from what I've seen. It's an extremely toxic work environment. And on top of that, you have all of these limitations to your rights. You know, you step one. I had a case today, someone called me, and um, a woman was getting terminated because of suspected overtime fraud. And it was like four hours that she put in overtime that she supposedly shouldn't have. And they were terminating her for that. Every other officer does that. But again, unless I can prove that she was singled out because of a protected class, because they didn't like her because she was a woman. They didn't like her because she was disabled, they didn't like her because she was homosexual. I don't know if she had any of these. Right. But unless there were comments made and things like that, there's nothing I can do. And now this poor individual like is losing her career. That's traumatic.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Trauma. Let's talk about that type of trauma because you know, I'm a huge advocate for uh mental health awareness. And people often associate trauma with an act of violence.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

This in itself does cause trauma.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

The the immense stress. Like, just from you speak, what kind of like emotions have you heard from clients over the phone?

SPEAKER_00 11:43

I will tell you that in law enforcement, and and it's not just law enforcement, but it's a lot of these careers that are life careers, these are they become a part of your identity. You're not just a mom or a dad, you're a correctional officer. You take pride in that. And most people who go into law enforcement anticipate that they will stay in law enforcement their entire lives until they retire.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

It becomes an innate part of who they are as an individual. And the biggest trauma that I've seen is not knowing like who am I now? What am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to go to an office and get an eight to five. Like, what? That type of trauma is so much more, and people commit suicide because of this. Facts. I had a client who, I mean, she wasn't a law enforcement officer, but similar. And she attempted suicide twice because she ended up that it was also a governmental entity she was retaliated against. And ultimately it was it became so hostile she had to quit. Like she was having panic attacks. She tried to commit suicide because she could not figure out who am I supposed to be now. I've been this person for 20 years, and now I'm supposed to go find another job. What? My pension's gone. Like everything is just completely transformed. Your life is, it's like a death of someone very close to you.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

The sick part of everything you just said right now is there's actually people that find enjoyment in watching other people suffer through that.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Give me you're you're giving me goosebumps from this.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Like Oh, it's the truth. The warnings have said numerous times. I know they're gonna get fired. I know they're gonna lose their job, their house, their wife. Who cares? I know they're gonna get their job back, but they're gonna lose it all in the process.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

I I can't I can't deal with those types of humans.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Well, no, that's freaking evil.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

I I was just talking to my friend about this this morning as I was driving in. We were talking about how like people who are really evil, it's almost like the devil protects them and they just thrive in their evilness.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

The devil does not protect them. It does up until a certain point, right? Because in the Bible, you know, God will always win. Um, but I hear what you're saying. It's they do a lot of damage in the meantime.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

You know, sometimes I think about like who hurt those people? Like, what made them so angry at the world that they find joy in other people's misery?

SPEAKER_02 14:11

It is bad.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

I have a quote.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

What is it?

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Happy bitches aren't hating and hating bitches aren't happy.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

I like it. Did you make up that quote or did you read it somewhere? I can't remember.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

I kind of made it up.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

It wasn't catchy, but I did get the use of it.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

I'll take that as a semi-compliment.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

But it's true, like people who, when they find have purpose and joy in their life, they will never find joy in seeing someone else suffer.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Misery loves company.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Absolutely. Well, you know, I think you're doing amazing work and helping people feel like at least they're protected and feel some form of unity while they're going through this trauma.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

It's a challenge. It's a challenge. Um, and I have been a target. Current employees have been a target, and that's what made me want to take a step back recently because I will not jeopardize their careers.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

And with the cause that I'm pushing.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

And and that's the problem. I mean, you're incredibly courageous and brave for pushing the cause because it needs to be pushed. Someone's got to do it. But how much have you sacrificed?

SPEAKER_02 15:21

I s I don't I don't I separate from my wife, uh, everything I have.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

And I'm sure you have a lot of haters who like hate you for what you're doing, but no one talks about how brave you are for putting this out there.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

They may hate, but everything I've said is 100% facts and evidence and documented. Again. Um search warrants, calling my phone, death threats from anonymous accounts. I don't know where they come from, you know. Um I've been told that the Office of Internal Affairs were given permission to create burner accounts on social media to kind of combat what I'm saying. And you gotta think about this is all taxpayers' money. They're doing this on taxpayer money. Meanwhile, you got uncontrolled violence. Assaults on staff are at an all-time high. Attempted murders on correctional are at all-time high. The murder rate is through the roof. We just had a level four inmate escape from Kern Valley State Prison and murder a Tijuana cop in Mexico. Uh, two ladies that were killed in Mule Creek State Prison in the family visiting overnight visits, and a inmate get killed in front of MacArthur Park at a halfway house. But what are they doing? They're coming after me and the people that are exposing the truth.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

For exposing all of these things that are happening. That's awful. And we d we take those cases, you know, the families of the victims in in the police department, and they or I'm sorry, in the against the correctional the department of corrections. Um, and they usually resolve pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

They don't want anyone to know about that.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

They don't.

Criminal Vs Administrative Investigations

SPEAKER_00 17:00

So yeah, if you ever have those cases, feel free to send those plenty of cases. Unfortunate people to me, but I mean, you're literally just spreading truth and you've given up so much of your life for it. You could have sat there quietly. Think about that. Do you ever think about that? That I could have just shut my mouth, sat there quietly, done my time, gotten a big pension, and walked out. And my life would be okay, but you wouldn't you wouldn't be chasing your purpose.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

So from the time I saw the corruption when I was a lieutenant, when from the time my eyes were open, I I couldn't. Internally, I couldn't. Yeah. I had a four-year-old daughter. She's a motivating factor. Everybody knows it. I I'm an example to her, right? Like I I couldn't. I wouldn't have been I wouldn't have been that wasn't my purpose. God did not put me on this earth to sit in a lieutenant's office for the rest of my career and just get shit on by the department.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Yeah. When you have kids, your perspective changes a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

And you know, and this is why I do what I do because there's generations that are gonna that are coming after us. Yeah, you know, and they're gonna take our place. I was gonna ask you something right now in regards to um your experience, do you believe it's litigation that affects change?

SPEAKER_00 18:12

No. No, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

That's heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

I mean, it affects some change with many, many years and many, many cases. Like I said before, most attorneys are very hesitant to take these cases because they fight so incredibly hard. And we take cases on contingency, both for personal injury and for employment law. We don't charge anything, we cover all of the costs until we are able to resolve something, right? That means every deposition we take, and in law enforcement cases, there's always a ton of depositions. That's like a thousand bucks a pop. Buy the transcript, another$800. You know, you everything costs money, and we have to pocket those costs in the hopes that at the end of the case, there'll be a good resolution to cover all those costs and then leave some for between the plaintiff and us.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Are you able to identify what the resolution will be when you start finding out the case?

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Unfortunately, not until we depose everyone, unless there's like a very clear documented record. Um and even then it's like judges could rule either way. And a lot of times the judge will, you know, there's a lot of case law that says they have to weigh the expectation to privacy with, you know, the public's need for this information. And so a lot of times it's very difficult when it comes to law enforcement to anticipate how a court will find. So it's very hard to take those cases. So you really have to litigate them to the end and have a lot of cases litigated to the end where the departments take a hit, like a real substantive hit, for them to incorporate change. I think a lot of it has to be through legislation.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

In your humble opinion, from your perspective and your experience. We have county agencies, state agencies, and federal agencies. For every one of those agencies, there's somebody above them. A mayor, a district attorney, a governor. Do you believe that the corruption goes that high?

SPEAKER_00 20:17

I I think it's it's a little tough to call it corruption per se. I think everyone does what makes sense for them to be re-elected, right? And I guess you can call that corruption.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah, that's absolutely corruption. I'm sorry. I keep it real.

Miranda, Compelled Answers, And Phones

SPEAKER_00 20:36

But you know what I mean? Like they're gonna they don't they don't necessarily think about the underlying issues. The people at the top who are running for election, they're gonna think about who's gonna donate the most money to my to my campaign so that I can get re-elected.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

But the problem is when you swear an oath and you swear on the Bible to do the right thing for the people, that's where the conflict of interest comes in.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

So interestingly enough, when I came to America, I was amazed by the constitution. Like I was obsessed with like it was sick. I was like, I have to be a lawyer because this two-party system is the most amazing thing. Right. Democracy is incredible. And I was like, I have to become a lawyer. And I did. I was a lawyer when I was uh 24. I like did everything so quickly. Granted, like English was my second language, but that's how obsessed I was. It was unhealthy. And I really believed in the system. And then when I became a grown-up, and I realized that like the dream is not really what it used to be anymore. And now I understand a lot better that a lot of it is politics, and politics are just it's like a Muppet show.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

From the time you got introduced into law, as you stated, to now, have you seen the system get distorted in any way?

SPEAKER_00 21:54

It has become harder. Um it has become harder to litigate things. You know, people companies fight harder because they want to set precedents of we're not we're not backing down. And they fight till the end. Um and I'm not just saying not just companies, all defendants. They used to be softer on things. And with the rise of technology, you would think that it would be easier to prove things, but it's actually not.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Here's a two-part question. Do you think their motivation to fight harder is driven from ego or driven from the fact to attempt to hide things that are actually wrong?

SPEAKER_00 22:33

I think to hide things and to not set precedent because you know they used to resolve cases more openly and more quickly, and what ended up happening was there were more cases that would come in.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

And now they fight till the end, and they're just like, spend your money, lawyers, plaintiffs, lawyers, spend all your resources. We're gonna fight till the end. And every once in a while you get like a really crazy result, like that case against the LA County that was for the foster care system. My friend actually did that for four billion dollars. Did you hear about that?

SPEAKER_02 23:02

I did not. That's a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

It was like for I mean, it was a ton of, I can't remember the exact number, but it was a ton of plaintiffs, and it was um children who were abused in the foster care system, like back in the 80s in all of Los Angeles County. And they sued, and it was a very long case, drawn out, and it ended up for$4 billion and settled. But it was each plaintiff gets, I can't remember exactly, but between$100,000 and$300,000.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Class action lawsuit?

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Uh class action.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Brings me to my next question. Are class action lawsuits more effective than a regular lawsuit?

Overreach, Ethics, And Legal Limits

SPEAKER_00 23:39

It depends, probably, because they're more known and there's definitely um there's definitely power in numbers for sure. But the problem with the class actions is everyone has to be um similarly situated. So when you have differences in specific situations, how big of a class can you get? You know, like in this particular case where all these officers were brought in. And I actually thought about that because there were some violations of rights in those officers who were brought in and not given their Miranda rights, not given representation when they've asked. There were like limited, you know, potentially some things you could argue that their rights were violated. But it was like not enough where it would be worth the cost of litigation for a law firm to take on, most likely. Right. But I thought about doing it as a class, and I there were like five or six of them that called me, but the problem is their situations were a little bit different. So I don't even know that we could argue that they were similarly situated enough to bring it all together as a class.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

The term negligent homicide. Okay. Can somebody be held liable in the court of law if it was proven that somebody's negligence resulted in another person's death?

SPEAKER_00 24:58

It depends. Um I know that's a lawyer answer, but it depends. I'm not a criminal law attorney, but I know that you could probably be liable. I know that most of those cases, though, they plea. They get pleas on because they're not, you know, reckless or or intentional. But I know that that is a crime that you could be prosecuted for.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

Yeah, like if you swore an oath, your duty to protect others, you purposely violate that oath, which results in death. I'm asking, like, can those people eventually be held accountable?

SPEAKER_00 25:31

If you can prove that they didn't meet their duty.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

100%.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

Ninety-four times.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Yeah. So, and that's the thing. I mean, yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

94 dead bodies. You're talking about the I'm talking about the California Department of Corrections administration managers purposely putting individuals in situations which resulted in death.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

When everybody knew what the result was going to be.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Are these um correctional officers? Oh, inmates. Yeah, those people definitely have cases.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Inmates, yeah, they do have cases.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

And the thing is in California and a lot of states, there's something that's called vicarious liability. Have you heard of that? Yeah. So anytime there's like a supervisor that acts in the scope and course of their employment, the employer is actually held liable for that supervisor's actions.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Ooh, music to our ears.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

So, I mean, that's the thing in California. So you can say, if you can prove that, you know, the the administrator had this duty, they breached that duty, and then it's uh duty, breach, causation, that the the damages were caused by the breach of the duty. So like the person died because of this administrative person breached the duty, um, then you have a case for negligent.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

Duty, breach, causation, man.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

And damages. And damages. So yeah, that's I mean, that's the simplified version, obviously, but if you can prove that there's definitely a case.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

This is great. This is great. I had asked you if uh in your opinion, do you think litigation affects change in agencies? But you had said no through legislation. Could you um expand on that?

Toxic Work And Identity Loss

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Yeah, so I think generally speaking, lawsuits, a lot of lawsuits over time will affect change, like people will maybe be a little bit more scared. But until there are more strict policies and procedures in place within the departments to prevent these things and hold the people who are doing the things accountable, nothing's really gonna change substantively. And in order to do that, I think there has to be legislation, there has to be new laws that hold people more accountable for these types of things that hold the administrative to the administration to a higher standard. Um, so that at that point they can be scared of losing their jobs if they screw up. I think really, until that happens, there's not gonna really be substantive change.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

I think they should be in fear of being put in prison, is what they should fear.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

I mean, yeah, if someone's dying on their watch because of something negligent that they did, absolutely, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

So we talked about litigation, lesicless. Sorry, I'm fortunate. I got a high school diploma.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Um, you're very intelligent.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Thank you, thank you. And now the third one is what can the people do, right? We the people, the people at the bottom. You have 30,000 peace officers with badges. They all contribute$100 a month to the union. California CCPOA union. The union in turn funds the machine. And I've explained this on my YouTube channel. Hey, you guys are funding your own demise. Right? If every 30,000 employees stopped two days paying their dues to the union, would that affect some type of change? I'm sure it's gonna rattle somebody's cage and be like, hey, what's going on here?

SPEAKER_00 28:57

It will definitely rattle cages cages. I don't know that it will affect a change as much as legislation would. Because at the end of the day, I think until the people at the top are terrified to screw up because it will affect their lives, they're not gonna change.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

I think that's a kicker right there.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

And I'm glad you pointed that out. They feel almost invincible, but nobody's untouchable.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

And that's the thing, accountability. Accountability is what's gonna do it. Like if you screw up, you're gonna go to jail, be fired, lose your pension, whatever. I mean, you see, even in law enforcement, unfortunately, I see this all the time. Someone screws up and they're allowed to resign.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Oh and then they're given their pension. I've seen that a hundred times.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Sorry, what? You get to fuck up, you get to have a beautiful resignation, no one knows you fucked up, and then you get to collect a pension that's probably more than my salary if they've been there long enough. Like it's insanity. Like that needs to be like if the legislation came in and said there if there's wrongdoing found against you as a law enforcement, you know, officer, then you lose your pension. I bet you they'd be thinking twice.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

So, with your brain and your experience, you said you came to America, you're like, oh, this is great. What is your thought on that part? That hey, these people screw up and they get they're allowed to retire.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

I just makes me live in. And I see it all the time. And I've actually had several cases that I've brought where I bring a case against a department and because the chief of police or whoever is screwing up and then they just resign.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

You've seen that?

SPEAKER_00 30:38

I've done that.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

You've done that? So right now you had asked me if I had heard of this case, right? And I did not. How important is it in 2025? Everybody has social media, everybody has a cell phone to spread information.

Trauma, Suicide Risk, And Purpose

SPEAKER_00 30:51

It's extremely important. And social media gets this awful wrap, right? Because everyone's like, oh, it's like you're comparing yourself and you get sucked into it. But it's also a really wonderful way to not be blinded to things. But you have to be vigilant in making sure that what you're seeing is true and not biased and that you're like doing your research. You can't just blindly follow someone. But when you find something that you believe is true and you believe accurately represents your values, I would say definitely spread it and show that you care about because that's how the word gets spread about things. Right. That's how change is formed. Because when enough people hear about it, that's when change starts happening.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

That and would you also agree, networking?

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Like kind of how me and you network and other people network, and it's like absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Absolutely. It's so important to make connections to you know, find people who also are purpose-driven with similar values to you, and have those connections because, you know, who knows down the line how you can collaborate. I always say, like, you know, all these people are like competition, competition. I'm competitive as fuck, and so are you. I know that for a fact, just because I already know.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

I'm really not though, but I hear what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

But you know what I mean? We always want to be better.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

We always like I'm competitive against myself. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

But I always say at the top, people don't compete. We collaborate.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

Because, like, if you're really sitting there being like, ah, I'm gonna get all the wins, guess what? Like, no one's gonna wanna. I am only happy to spread my wins because I know my grandpa always said like a giving hand will never come up empty. And so you should collaborate, network, share, like pump each other up. I think it's extremely, extremely important. That's how change is initiated always. I mean, you think about it, like 30 years ago, women barely had any rights. Well, not 30. I always think we're in 2000. Like in the 1970s. Like in the 1970s, women didn't have any rights. And if people sat there and like didn't speak up, nothing would get done.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Real quick. You remember 20 years ago the women didn't have any rights, right? But the men were more mannier. Now they have all the rights in the world and men are soft. Do you see that correlation? Do you see it or not?

SPEAKER_01 33:16

That's true.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Because I see it. So the women got what they wanted, but then they got what they didn't want.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Yeah. Sometimes I want to just be a stay-at-home mom and oh, I'm a stay-at-home dad is the best.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Because the women wanted more rights, so I'm like, cool, you have you take the rings. I'm a chill.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

I think it's important to definitely stand up to things you believe in and not stand up to things you don't believe in and spread information.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

I have a seven-year-old daughter. Right now, you just said it's important for people to stand up for what they believe in. How would you word that to my seven-year-old daughter?

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Oh, it's hard because I I have a nine-year-old and a five-year-old and a two-year-old. So uh I'm always struggling with the same things because you want to protect them from the world.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

Facts.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

But you also know that if you protect them too much, they won't be prepared for the world. So you're not really doing them any favors by hiding reality from them. So you really have to find a way to show it to them and make them understand. I always tell my son, my oldest son really understands it better now. He's nine. But like, if you see something that you think is wrong, you know, come home, talk to me about it, and let's decide if you. I like try to stop him from being um impulsive and in standing up for things. That's good. Because you never know. Right. You never know how someone's gonna react. But I want him to be aware.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Respond versus react.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Yes, exactly. And I actually go into my son's class every week and do a little class for his class on like yoga grounding, meditation, and how to control your emotions. Because I think that is a highly underrated skill in the world, and they should teach that in school.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

Facts.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Because now everyone's so emotional. Like, even in the workplace, I'm like sometimes people will just be like super. I'm like, why are emotions at play here? This is a workplace, but it's everything.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

Everyone's like, how picture of Trump, and everybody loses their mind. And it's just like relax, it's just a picture of Trump. It's just a picture.

Search Warrants, Burners, And Backlash

SPEAKER_00 35:19

But it's like, who cares how you feel? Like that has never throughout history, that has never been a thing of like, how do I feel like you have to respond with logic and education and critical thinking? Think about things before you respond.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

So I'm very like primal in the brain, and I think about the caveman, and I think the further we got away from our roots is when all the emotional antics came on board. Now, how would you tell a 31-year-old law enforcement officer to stand up for what is right?

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Oh, that's hard. Because basically, you're most likely going to lose your job. You're most likely going to you lose your career. Like it is, I have seen I have seen almost no cases where people in law enforcement make a complaint and get to have it addressed well. And I'm not saying that all the systems are always set up to fail, but most of the time, when things get bad enough for someone to speak up, that's something that's probably gonna want to be covered up.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

And that's a problem. If it's something little and they speak up about it, yeah, maybe they can continue on with their career and be fine. But if it's something substantive enough where they're like, I can't stand to watch this anymore, I have to speak out against it, probably there's gonna want to be a cover-up of some type.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

So I personally never tell any law enforcement officer to leave their job, and I never discourage any um people wanting to join from joining. What per what advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_00 36:55

I would advise them. So I have a two-fold advice. I think some people are really have always wanted to be like in the law enforcement agencies, and that has been their dream, and they should follow that and try that because if they don't, then they're always gonna think, what if?

SPEAKER_02 37:10

True. True.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

I will also say that no job or career is worth your mental health. None. There will never be a job that I think I would rather be living in a box hungry, eating breadcrumbs, than work in a place where I'm, you know, tolerating such a hostile work environment that I cannot sleep at night.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Are we related? I've literally said those same exact words. Those same exact words. I said, I will not take another dollar from you guys.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Yeah, it's it's hard because here's the thing, Hector, that people don't understand is the your work environment affects your mental health so much. And it's so easy to try and compartmentalize and be like, oh, it's fine. I'm fine, I'm fine. And maybe for a little bit you are, but that shit comes rolling back in when you least expect it, and it affects everything. It affects your life, how you treat the people closest to you is who's really gonna get it. Like you're gonna take it out on them. That's the truth. Because that's who you feel closest to. You can't have a tantrum at work, you can't come home and have a tantrum with your wife.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Like, which is why the domestic violence is high and divorce rate is high in law enforcement.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

So I would say if you are really dreaming to be a law enforcement officer, you should do it, you should try it out. But if it is affecting your mental health and you can't handle it and you're seeing things that you cannot tolerate, I would say get out. And like if it was me, but it doesn't take it takes balls to do this. So like I wouldn't recommend this for any everyone. But if it was me, I would go out fighting. I would make complaints. No way.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

I would no way. That's like a kamikaze mission. You got to use strategy. You're smarter than from Russia. You're smarter than that. I know you got a lot of fight in here, but you're also smart.

Negligence, Duty, And Vicarious Liability

SPEAKER_00 38:57

It's just like to me, I I mean, I have a client right now, and she's just like, she's she's a client, she's in law enforcement, and they're retaliating against her hard because she's making claims and she's like, I don't care, I'm not leaving. She's like, they will have to take me out, and they're making it so difficult for her to stay. And she's like, I was born with the fighting spirit in me. I'm like, fuck yes. Like, that is my ideal client.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

That is crazy. That's a lot. It's a lot to go up against the machine while you're still in the machine to me is almost impossible, but it's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

It it's very difficult. But you know, if you have the nerve for it, because I think that for me, for my personality, if I had left, I would always feel like I should have done more while I was there.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

I don't feel that way because I did a lot while I was in. I mean, the emails I was sending, the stuff. Well, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, like whole Z. They weren't even sarcastic because they were documented like proof, hey, you guys are idiots, and here's why. No disrespect. I would put like, you know, with all due respect, yeah. You messed up here, here, here, and here.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

They didn't like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Well, something I do sometimes, and you know, I'm always happy to do this. If I see that a case is gonna potentially turn into a claim, I can be retained and be behind the scenes. So the law enforcement agency doesn't even know I'm representing the person yet, and I just help them draft their complaints. I don't do much, but I just make sure that everything is properly documented so that if they do get fired, I can take the case and I know exactly what happened and can with that being said, where could people reach out to you to get in a hold of you? Um they can just email me. I can give you my email address and put it on there or um Instagram, okay, Facebook. That's where a lot of people reach out to the code. What's your Instagram handle? It's Mila Aretunian Esquire. So cool.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

And then we'll link it at the bottom. Yeah. Because I like what you just said. Like, hey, I can represent you behind the scenes. Yeah. And just let the department hang themselves with their own rope.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Yeah, because it doesn't really take that much for me to like help just look at a complaint and be like, is are the because a lot of times you'll feel like you're retaliating against, but you don't know how to say that.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

But there has to be the nexus with the protected group.

Litigation, Costs, And Precedent

SPEAKER_00 41:06

And but a lot of times it's like you make a complaint or you know, a lot of things that I see also, not so much well, also law enforcement, but especially with vets, veterans who come back, because I always I have like a whole thing with veterans. I also love them to death. Like they hold a very special place in my heart. They come back and they're so institutionalized because they've never known anything else and they don't know how to function in the real world. And a lot of them join law enforcement because it's a similar um institution. But the problem is a lot of times they'll have PTSD or other underlying mental health conditions that are as a result of serving our country. Right. But they should be accommodated for these things. Like even if that they don't specifically ask for an accommodation, as soon as the department knows they're having mental health issues, they're supposed to reach out and say, hey, you seem like you're struggling. How can we help you? That is their duty under California law. As soon as an employer becomes aware in any way of a disability, including PTSD, anxiety, even sleeplessness, like if you can't sleep at night, insomnia, that can be considered a disability. Um, they have an affirmative duty to reach out and say, how can we help you? How can we accommodate you? It's called the duty to accommodate. Then they're supposed to do what's called engage in an interactive process to determine like if this triggers you, if this line of work triggers you, how can we put you in a different position where you're not as triggered so that you can be set up for success? And that isn't done.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

Now, are they obligated to do that, or that's what you're saying they should do?

SPEAKER_00 42:44

That's that's an obligation under the law, the Fair Employment and Housing Act.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

Fair Employment and Housing Act.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

And let me tell you another piece of gold, because a lot of law enforcement agents have substance abuse problems. Under both California law and the federal law, if you have a substance abuse problem like alcoholism or even a drug addiction, and you check yourself into rehabilitation, that rehab is a protected class. So you being an alcoholic is not protected. Like that's not a disability. But if you tell your employer, hey, I have an issue, I need to take some leave to get rehab, then you're a protect that's a protected disability under the law. So, you know, a lot of people don't know that.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

So I myself, in the year 2010, was authorized by my employer, the California Department of Corrections, to enter a rehab for my alcoholism, which I'll give credit where credit is due. You know, I'm not here to beat up on CDCR. They did allow me that in 2010.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

And that's which I'm grateful for because I'm coming up on 15 years of sobriety. Like next week.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

That's amazing. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

15 years, yeah. So I do credit that.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

And as they should. And a lot of people don't know that. They'll like be scared to get treatment because they're like, what if they fire me? No, they're required to hold your job for you. It's a disability under the law.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

Excellent, excellent. Uh, for the next topic. They're afraid to get better.

unknown 44:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

Right. Um what advice would you give to people that are suffering from mental health issues and substance abuse in relation to their job and in relation to the law?

Legislation And Real Accountability

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Ask for an accommodation. Ask for it in writing. Make sure it's documented. See a therapist. Perfect. That's so important. And it's funny because law enforcement agents are often too macho to see therapists. Correct. Like I can deal with this myself. And I'm always like, if you broke your leg, would you be like, it's gonna just heal? No. You're not struggling because you're weak. You're struggling because you're dealing with a lot of shit. Go get some help. Like, so get therapy. And the thing is, the good thing about law enforcement is they do have a lot of resources for these issues. Use those resources. And once it's documented, you have a protected disability under the law. So they're gonna be even more scared to touch you.

SPEAKER_02 45:07

I never knew that.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Yeah, there you go. Protective class, you want one?

unknown 45:10

I never knew that.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

But then I'll follow under the other one's disabled veteran or veteran or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

So well, yeah. So, but I mean it's just so important. And more most important is to document. Like, don't just tell your supervisor, write a email to HR. And the thing is, you don't actually have to say what you're suffering from. If you're have a mental health condition or you're depressed and you need to get therapy or you need to take time off, you don't have to tell them what your issue is. You just have to tell them, I have a disability, here's a note from my doctor, I'm gonna be out for this amount, and they're required to give it to you. So just take advantage of all of that because if you're not well here, you're not gonna be well anywhere else.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

A hundred percent. From your perspective, and we were just talking earlier about um winning cases where the people resign as a result of the results. What brings you more satisfaction? The victim getting resolution and mentally getting better, like the substantial like pay or whatever the reward, or the people resigning and retiring? What do you gain more gratification from?

SPEAKER_00 46:17

The people who resign and get get some pay. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_02 46:21

You're talking about like what do you for like they you basically pushed them out. Yeah. You exposed them so much that they had no choice but to leave. Do that, you gain satisfaction from that.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Oh, I get a lot of satisfaction from that. I'm not gonna lie to you. But it still pisses me off that they get to kind of walk away with their golden parachutes. But it does make me happy, like even my current case where I have I'm representing a number of officers, um, and the chief resigned, the chief of the department resigned after we brought the case because it was pretty substantial allegations against him, and he didn't want to deal with that. Um, and the environment got so much better.

SPEAKER_02 46:58

It did? Because that was gonna be the next question.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

So much better.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Do you say that's the number one person in charge? They leave because they got caught doing something wrong. Do you think it affects the number two person, number three, number four in charge?

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Absolutely. I mean, as long as you can get a new chief in that's neutral. I came in and the new chief came to me and he's like, Hey, how are you? Like, I'm the attorney on the case that's bringing a lawsuit against the department, and he's just neutral. Like, because he unders not because he's like kissing ass or a bad person. He understands that I'm protecting people. I'm not here to screw over the department. I'm protecting people from unfair treatment.

SPEAKER_02 47:33

To you, does it almost seem kind of weird or foreign when somebody's actually authentically nice, like that new chief?

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Sometimes. Sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

It's like a trap almost. Like, why is that being nice to me?

Unions, Power, And Withholding Dues

SPEAKER_00 47:43

I know, but I also like I believe that people have good intentions. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know what I mean? And I think, and I talk to my guys, and you know, it seems like just from an overall perspective, that things have been more fair. And that's all we were looking for is just fairness. Like, people who are in law enforcement want a fair opportunity to apply for promotions, get trainings that'll give them opportunities to apply for promotions, all of these things. And when you have an unfair system in place and bad people at the top, it's a system of favoritism. And if you're not a favorite, you're fucked.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

It's accessible. It's accessible.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

So, anyway, I love what I do. I'm I think everyone should be a lawyer. I love to fight for people. Like, so it just makes me happy. And and I feel like you're kind of, even though you're not a lawyer, you are also an advocate for justice.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

I like that too. Yeah. I consider us warriors.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Officers also live under the public employee speech doctrine from cases like Pickering, Conick, and Garchetti. If an officer posts something controversial or criticizes the department, they can be disciplined or fired, even if it's political speech. A private citizen could say the same thing and be protected by the First Amendment. But for law enforcement officers, free speech isn't really free.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

This is a banger of a topic, and we've already been covering so many good topics. So I gotta let you know. I did go to college, University of Phoenix for a little bit. GI Bill. And in there I learned when the professor said, Hey, if you work for an employer, a private company, you have freedom of speech, but they also have the freedom to fire you. You don't have the right to work there. Can you elaborate on that and as it uh pertains to the law?

Golden Parachutes And Lost Pensions

SPEAKER_00 49:44

So, I mean, there are a lot less limitations for um for, you know, general public employers than there are for law enforcement officers. Private employers can also punish their employees for posting things that are, you know, offensive. They usually will have social media policies and they can follow those. But police officers can't post anything against the department. I mean, I guess technically, private employers, it's the same thing. You can't really post something that says my employer is awful. But, you know, it's it's unfortunate. I uh I had a case against an airline. I mean, that was like this woman had a um OnlyFans account. And her ex-boyfriend, they were like dating and they were both working together and they broke up and she didn't want to get back with him, so he sent her OnlyFans account to HR.

SPEAKER_02 50:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

And they fired her. Even though technically they wouldn't have even gotten that if it wasn't for the boyfriend. Um, but we tried to bring a claim and they told us to go screw ourselves. Really? Yeah, because they were like, we have a social media policy. You can't, you can even see her face in any of the videos. She sent me all of them.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

It's so weird.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

But it was her name was kind of associated with the account, and that was enough for them to say, you're fired. The constitution is there for a reason. Police officers, just because they're police officers, doesn't mean they're not human. Doesn't mean they aren't allowed to have a, you know, perspective or an opinion on certain things. So from that perspective, I just think there needs to be more limitations in at play, and it can't just be black or white.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

You've never been a law enforcement officer, right? From your perspective, do you think it would be easier to fight a bad guy with a gun or an administration and government?

SPEAKER_00 51:39

Oh, bad guy with a gun 1000%. I mean, granted, I work out seven days a week, so I could take them out and no, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 51:46

You're you're right on the money. You ask any CEO or any law officers, they're like, dude, yeah, we're built for this, not this other crap.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

Yeah, no, I uh it's I mean, I work with the administrative side of it. When they're after something, they have no limitations. They don't. They don't care because they know they're not gonna lose their job, they're not gonna get in trouble. If they're deposed, they're gonna lie, and people in the department will back them up. I mean, unfortunately, that's the truth, and I'm not saying everyone's bad. There are good people out there as well. But at the end of the day, the administrative people, they have one goal, and that is to protect the department at all costs. They're not gonna say anything against it.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

That is wild. That is wild. Do you have any hope for the future?

SPEAKER_00 52:33

I do. I mean, the fact that these conversations are happening, I'll tell you, like in a lot of other countries, we wouldn't be allowed to talk like that.

SPEAKER_02 52:39

We'll be hanging off a bridge or something.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

Oh, yeah, for sure. I for sure.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

Yeah, you would be too speak against the Gestapo.

Social Media, Speech, And Discipline

SPEAKER_00 52:48

But, you know, here I'm very hopeful because I do believe that this country is great, and I think all change has required time and effort. And to be fair, the correctional department is understaffed and overpopulated, and it is very difficult to control that. And I think, you know, there needs to just be change from within, from policies, procedures, and holding people accountable when they fuck up instead of allowing room for cover-ups.

SPEAKER_02 53:20

From your humble opinion and your experience and your perspective, how do you think this is gonna end for me?

SPEAKER_00 53:26

Oh God, uh I think everything great is gonna come to you.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

Thank you. I didn't believe that one bit, but I do.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

I mean, as long as you like you're not doing anything illegal. Thank you. Right? Like you're spreading word. I mean, yeah, it's unpleasant and you're fighting back, but you're not doing anything illegal. I think as long as you keep not doing anything illegal, yeah, they'll take your phones, they'll take your emails. I mean, honestly, let's be real. No one has privacy anyway, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

Yeah, that's true. Everybody knows everything. Yeah, like Alexa's listening and always.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

Yeah. So it's like, yeah, they'll they'll keep trying to come after you as long as you're doing it. But I think ultimately, like, what can they do? Are they gonna arrest you for it? Probably not. No, but it's also like how much of your mental health is worth it.

SPEAKER_02 54:14

True, true. I'm good at the moment, but I do have my days.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

It takes a lot out of you, and you don't talk about that. No, but like you've already been through so much trauma. And again, what we talked about before of just leaving the department that you planned to be in your whole life, yeah. And not knowing like what like what's next for you. You know what I mean? And that's the thing with the social media world, you don't really know where it ends. You don't know where it starts and where it ends, how long can you make money on it, how long can you make connections at it, where's it gonna take me? As opposed to having like a job that you know you're gonna retire and you're gonna get a pension. Right. But so, like, all of that has been incredibly difficult for you, I'm sure. I mean, it obviously broke your marriage up, and you know, now your life is completely different than when you came out. So at the end of the day, it's gonna be like, at what point do you step back and say, you know what, this isn't worth it for me anymore? I've spread the word, people know that this is happening, and now it's time for the next era of my life.

SPEAKER_02 55:15

I'm trying to think from a current correctional officer's perspective, like what would they want to know? Or um What options do they have? What options do they have? Um, with quitting the job, transferring to another agency, filing a lawsuit against the department, blowing the whistle, what options do they have?

SPEAKER_00 55:38

They would have to blow the whistle. I mean, if they really can't stand it, the only option is to keep blowing the whistle until someone hears.

SPEAKER_02 55:45

Dang.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

Honestly, like what else can you do? I mean, if that's the system, then that's the system. And hopefully there will be just change initiated with everything. Because as of right now, I mean, the good thing is with how you've been subpoenaed is obviously someone's eyes are open to this. And what I'm hopeful for is that maybe at some point they say, hey, let's look at the underlying root cause of why these things are being published. Like, why do these videos even exist of inmates being killed?

SPEAKER_02 56:17

Right.

Hope, Change, And Better Leadership

SPEAKER_00 56:18

Let's look at the underlying cause of that and not focus so much on the fact that the videos exist to begin with.

SPEAKER_01 56:24

Facts.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

So that is my hope. Like in an ideal situation, that happens. There's change. I mean, there's never gonna be a perfect system. There's always gonna be, unfortunately, situations that occur. But even if you can mitigate that just a little bit, I think you've done God's work.

SPEAKER_02 56:40

No, I see that. I see that for sure. Um, I want to thank you for coming on the show. Yeah, thank you. Interviewing and sharing your knowledge, wealth of knowledge, because I don't think I've ever had a lawyer on the show.

SPEAKER_00 56:52

Oh, good, that makes me happy. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure, and I do feel like we're honestly in a lot of ways doing the same thing. We just want fairness, equality, and justice.

SPEAKER_02 57:03

100%.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 57:05

Well, there you guys have it, folks. Another banger, man. I tell you guys, I keep bringing it in. It's all for you guys. Protect yourself, learn, listen. Love you guys, keep pushing forward.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

Hector Bible won't hinge, story never ends.