The Truth About Prison Survival They Never Tell Rookie COs

We trace how corrections changed from the late 80s to today, why experience beats fast promotions, and how respect and clear boundaries prevent needless violence. Jimmy shares a yard assault, lessons on de-escalation, lawful force, and the life costs of a high-stress career—and how to build resilience and a future beyond the gate.

• generational shifts in staff mindset and promotions 
• politics, “cars,” and misaligned incentives 
• GP yard dynamics, influence, and why riots hurt profits 
• de-escalation through respect, not ego 
• reading cues, acting first when violence is imminent 
• fitness and preparation over performative toughness 
• staff-on-staff accountability to stop escalation 
• lawful force, Mini-14 use, and policy drift 
• the toll: divorce, DUIs, suicides, and coping that works 
• side hustles, investing, and planning for retirement 
• who should wear the badge and academy gaps

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Transcript

Setting The Stage With Jimmy

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back to our channels, Warriors. We are still growing today. Another banger man. Look what the cat drug in. I brought in my good friend Jimmy again for part two. You guys loved him. Former correctional officer, retired correctional officer, did 29 years at New Folsom, CSP Sacramento. Started his career in 1987. What up, Jimmy? Hector Bravo on him. Chaos is now in session.

unknown 0:33

Jimmy.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

How you doing, Hector? What's good, man? It's good to see you, dude. Yeah. How has things been since the last time we filmed over here?

SPEAKER_03 0:41

It's pretty good. I think I got a lot of positive response. A lot of people liked my message that I put out that about just how things are and were, maybe my experiences.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

I think it was your delivery too, bro. Your candor. You're like very respectful. You're conscious of what to say, what not to say. You're a respectful dude. I try to be. I think that's the way people should be.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

What's up with your hat, man? You want to give him a shout-out? So yeah, I'm wearing this hat today. It's a shout-out to my son, Wade. There you go. Yeah. He plays high uh college football, Myanot State University. This is his number. His brother plays as well. I can only wear one hat at a time. So I'm wearing Wade's hat. So, Wade.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

That's cool, bro. Shout out to him, man, and number 65. Yeah. So let's just get right into it, man. One of the reasons we have many conversations offline, and it's like, hey, dude, we see what's happening in law enforcement. We see what's happening specifically in corrections. Um, it's a generational thing. It's a youth thing, and it's more of identifying are this, is this generation prepared to be in such a violent environment?

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Yeah, correct. And I don't want to be one of those guys that's always talking about back in the day, but I mean, I think we've seen society in general has shifted. I noticed that shift when I was still in the Navy as well. Um, I noticed a lot of changes, probably starting the early 2000s with the staff that was coming into the prisons and and possibly their mindset, maybe their their personal experiences in life, not necessarily having them prepared for that environment.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

You bring up a good point because you you started the job in '87, but you're saying it wasn't until the early 2000s that you started to see a change in employees, correctional officers.

Generational Shifts In Corrections

SPEAKER_03 2:28

Yeah, looking back, that's when I feel like I started noticing kind of a different mindset coming in. Um, a lot of these guys came in, they didn't really want to listen to the experienced staff. Um, you know, they they took routes to try to succeed. A lot of them wanted to promote right away. A lot of them promoted before they were ready to promote, before they had the knowledge and experience to be supervising COs, sergeants, people below them that had a lot more experience.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

When you first came in, what was the consensus? You were expected to do your time before you promoted?

SPEAKER_03 3:06

Oh, for sure. For sure. I was on the sergeant's list. I think I took the first sergeant's test I could when I had about four years in, and I was on the list. And I'll be honest, one of the reasons I didn't promote was I realized I really didn't know enough to be, there was a lot of experience, really good staff at at you know CSB SAC New Folsom. And I didn't feel like I would be doing the job or my position of service. I didn't feel like I had the experience. I was mostly on third watch, spent a lot of time in the dining room. So I didn't necessarily feel like it was my time to be supervising other staff.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Now, your prior military, prior law enforcement. How important is experience in a job which could result in life or death?

SPEAKER_03 3:56

Uh it's it's very important. It's very important. To me, that should be the basis of somebody's toolbox that's going to be making decisions and directing other people to make decisions that affect their lives, the lives of inmates, the safety and security of the institution, all the above.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

So I heard you say that in the early 2000s, the demeanor of the officers coming in had changed. What about the expectation from the department to its supervisors? Meaning now it's more so like be a yes man, do not talk back, and just do what we say.

Promotions, Politics, And Cars

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Yeah, I I mean there was there's a lot of good staff that came in my whole career. I just looking back, that's when I noticed things starting to slowly change. Um and I just think that the the reasons people were promoting, of course, everybody probably back to the beginning of the department, promoted because a lot of them had the dream of being a warden someday, or they wanted to get to the highest level for when they retire, which I understand that. That's you know, that's respectable. But I noticed people getting put into positions that they didn't belong in. Right. And um certain career paths where guys were like a third watch SE in ad seg, uh making sergeant going to third watch sergeant in ad seg, obviously kind of being, you know, taken care of. Then next thing you know, they're like IGI lieutenant or something where it's there's probably people that might have had more experience. I don't know, maybe at that time they were the best candidate. It's hard to say, but they weren't those politics.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

We've seen it over and over again.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

When I look back at some of the results of those people being in those positions, it makes me question it. It's incompetence. Yeah, and just a lot of favoritism.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

So what if uh what if you have a selfish individual and a selfish mentality such as, well, I don't give a fuck if I have the experience or not. I want to make the extra money. I want the chevrons. What's your thought process on just a selfish Oh, I saw people like that.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

Yeah. Um some of them could be saved. Some of them could be saved. Some of them were you just, man, you just avoid them at all costs. And you know, you'd end up working with them on third watch on an overtime or something. You're like, dude, let me just get through the shift, you know, just the mentality, the stupidity, you know.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

Because I forgot, bro, you were a fucking cop. You were a CO for the fucking 29 whole years, bro. And I give you credit to that because I've heard you say it numerous times, like, oh yeah, well, I didn't promote, but I'm like, nah, bro, my hat's off more to you the fact that you stayed a fucking cop, dude.

SPEAKER_03 6:50

Well, I mean, now that I'm retired, I kind of wish I'd promoted, of course. It would be nicer to retire at a higher pay grade. And like I said in the the previous um podcast we did, I, you know, newer guys coming in when I kind of figured out I'm never gonna promote, um, I'm gonna retire as a CO. A lot of the newer guys I thought were sharp, I recommended to them, hey, promote, man. You know, get somewhere where you can affect a change, maybe, or at least not have so many idiots over you making decisions that affect your life. So I, you know, the whole process is there for a reason. It's just sometimes the validity of it is circumvented by the way it's done. And and you know, they you know about the cars. Yeah you know, everybody has their little cars and these groups of people take care of each other for various reasons. Right and go into detail, you know, and it's like that that whole thing is is a it's a big part of the the you know process of people promoting in California Department of Corrections, period. Like people getting into positions of serious power, homie hookups. Yeah, but some of these guys get all the way to the top with that. Yeah, the secretary. But anyways, yeah, no comment. I hear what you're saying, bro. Yeah, I'm not talking about specific people, you know, but it's just like correct. I mean, we all have seen just how things work, and um, you know, now it's been like that a long time.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

When you were able to recognize what cars were, right? Because when you're new, you don't know who the hell you don't even know who the fucking lieutenant is, right? You're so brand spanking new. When you were able to identify cars, how many cars did you see change throughout your career at CSP Sec? I'd say most of them were pretty temporary. Temporary? Yeah. Where would they go though? What was the headquarters? Since it's so close. You know what?

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Some of those people were just kind of hooking everybody up on like their level. They were maybe a sergeant or lieutenant, they just wanted to have their little crew of people that they liked or whatever. Um, I remember when I was a pretty new officer working in the dining rooms and beef facility on Third Watch, the sergeant uh they had choir practice where they would all like go to a bar on a certain night after Third Watch and drink.

Experience Over Rank In Life-Or-Death Work

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Hey Warriors, if you haven't already signed up for our all new website, Hector Bravoshow.com, make sure you sign up at the link below, Hector Bravoshow.com to watch explicit, uncensored, never before seen prison footage. With that, love you.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

Keep pushing stuff or whatever. I just never that was never my I never went. I never wanted to go, you know. So probably why I didn't get good jobs.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

I was just about to ask that did you like did that hurt you or help you? But you're saying you didn't get good jobs. Yeah, but like But you still you stink true to yourself.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

It's a good job anyway. You're still in the prison, you know. I mean, like, yeah. I mean, I had to wait till post and bid to get a taste of weekends, a taste of second watch. And I think post and bid started like maybe 93-ish around then. So my first six years, man, I was just ass out.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

I know on our last episode, you said that you ended your last bid on a level four GP 180, and you said you wanted to go out the way you came in. Prior to that bid, were you also in a building?

SPEAKER_03 10:07

So prior to that bid, I was in a um yard gun that got eliminated, which was uh B7 yard gun, which overlooked the area of Beef Soldier main yard were the Crips, Bloods, Bay Area, the black inmates had their exercise area, um, their tables and everything else. Um which watch were you on? I was on second watch. So I was in that job for about two years. Incidents or no incidents? Uh quite a few incidents. Nothing super serious, you know, nothing that the 40 couldn't handle. It's now with that being said, what RDOs did you have?

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Saturday, Sunday, I'm assuming. Yeah, I think had weekends off. Did was there incidents when you were not there, whether it be on Third Watch or the weekend?

SPEAKER_03 10:55

Well, not uh, you know, like try to make myself sound like I'm all that, but yeah, like I take vacation and there would be but so there is a certain way, even though I was a yard gun, I interacted with the inmates out there. Like I knew a lot of the inmates already from working from the tower you interact with. Yeah, what did that look like? Working in the blocks. I'd have the windows open, I'd talk to them, you know. Yeah, they'd come by. There's like certain influential inmates on that yard that would come by and come talk to me. Well, say what's up, John? Yeah, they want to see who's up there. Oh, 100%. So if they knew I was up there, I mean, look, they're gonna do what they're gonna do. I don't think like I, you know, I'm Superman or whatever, but they knew they knew what to what to expect from me. So, and it was cool. Like, I mean, you know, they know I'm I'm gonna do my job. You guys are down there doing your thing, you know, it's it's all good, man. But like there'd be times when I wasn't there and I know that's why some shenanigans kicked off because they came by and they looked up and they didn't see me, and they they feel a little more comfortable with it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Well, let's talk about predatorial behavior and feeling comfortable and violence. All of that is relevant in a prison setting. Overall, what would you say the consensus of the inmate languages? Would you say it's violence? Would you say violence is a prison language?

Yard Gun Stories And Influence

SPEAKER_03 12:19

Oh, it's definitely part of like, yeah, just the underlying culture of how things are done. Yeah. I mean, it's there's a lot of inmates are pretty sophisticated with it, though. They're not they're not as like openly like, you know, trying to threaten people or whatever. They have their ways of of trying to basically circumvent all that so you can get something done and not really get caught up in that kind of stuff. And one of the things I was gonna bring up too is that, you know, the riots and the violence and stuff that people hear about going on in these level four, you know, these GP prison yards. One of the reasons I liked working on a GP was the inmates that were all gang members and they functioned by sets of rules. And there's people that were influential to every group. Right. Those people influential to the groups don't want a bunch of crap happening. They don't want a bunch of violence, they don't want the staff assaults if they can be avoided. They don't want the riots if they can be avoided. Um, because most of them at the top of those organizations are making money from the rest of the organization with drugs, uh, cell phones, whatever else they have going on, having free movement around the facility, you know, able to interact with other groups because they are making money with other groups, they don't want that to stop. I mean, correct. Back in the you know, 80s and 90s, we had lockdowns that lasted six months. Longer than that. So at some institutions. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it I'd say it's SAC, you know, maybe certain groups locked down longer than that.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Centinella, like like with a year to two-year lockdowns.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

Oh, yeah. I mean, I remember, you know, after riots, we would uh all the staff would be in there making the food in the chow hall for like a month before they figured out who could even come out and work, you know. I mean, so the inmates that are influential don't want that. Correct. But they can't necessarily control everything that happens within their group. And there's there's certain rules too that you know what, man, if those rules get broken, all that's out the window. Oh disrespect. Yeah. Uh you know, debts that go on too long, disrespect, um you know, things with staff, staff disrespect, uh a lot of things. I saw a lot of things create giant incidents from where staff could have prevented it, but they just you know, they kept pushing on something, you know, thinking that it wasn't gonna explode on them one day, and it did, you know. You're a badass, bro, by definition.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Is it okay for correctional officers to say whatever they want to inmates?

Violence As Prison Currency

SPEAKER_03 15:08

I mean, if they want to go home with a busted mouth. Yeah. I mean, it's it's you know, and here's the thing. Um you you learn pretty quickly like how to navigate if you're if you're smart, you know. There's people that didn't. And how to navigate all that. There's some really you know highly disrespectful, confrontational inmates. You know how to you just have to learn how to deal with it, you know. It's and it takes some time, you know, it can be intimidating. I'm not gonna lie. There's you know, I'm not gonna say like there wasn't times when I felt intimidated by an inmate, you know, being aggressive or whatever, or just thinking, okay, I want to diffuse this, you know, and deal with it later, maybe. I mean, you're supposed to be smarter than that, right? That's why they send you to that academy and pay you a hundred thousand dollars a year. Teach you all these techniques, man. Don't, you know, just over there. Most of those guys in there grew up fighting in violent environments, man. Gang members, been locked up since they're kids. Like, honestly, dude, they're gonna whoop my ass, most of them, you know. Even the little dudes, they're just gonna catch you slipping it and blast you, man. And like, you know, I knew that. You have to be a realist about it. But the main thing is I don't want to start something that gets me hurt, but also gets other staff hurt, my friends, you know, my partners. Facts, you know, and that that was another big factor of like how like when I was new, the the older officers kind of molded you, they kind of tested you a little bit, molded you, maybe embully you a little bit to make you realize the environment you are in and to hopefully you know want to be a better CO, be stronger, you know.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Talk to me about the staff that trained you. You mentioned that they came from old prisons that had the tier setup.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

So, yeah, like New Folsom, most experienced staff, if not all of them, came from an old-design prison, like San Quentin, old Folsom, Soledad, um, places like that, with you know, Tracy, which were really violent prisons. And, you know, these guys were tier officers and they have to, you know, bust the tier. You got 60, 70, 80, however many inmates coming out. Like you're not gonna, if you you're running your mouth at that door and all that kind of you know, stuff that was going on at the new design prisons, like most of those guys weren't about that, like because they had learned how to communicate with inmates and learned that like you know what the limits are. Like you gotta know your limits, you know, the boundaries and you know what could happen if you, you know, move too far with something.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

So, from your recollection, now this is gonna make you think way back. What were some of those OGs noticing that the newer cops were doing at the newer institution that they were not they were saying, hey dude, stop, don't do that. Can you recall if they were doing anything?

SPEAKER_03 17:59

I mean, I was young. Yeah, I think they just kind of they would they would kind of pick on me a little bit because I was young and skinny, like yeah Johnston, it's against the law to lift weights in your neighborhood, you know, like kind of talk shit, you know, to try to now to try to get you thinking like, okay, uh, like, you know, there's a physical aspect to this job.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

Let's talk about the following topics bullying, hazing, and uh character development. To me, they're all the fucking same, and they were coming from the military, we're coming from the same background. What are your thoughts on that and how is it utilized in a good effort to make you a better correctional officer?

De‑escalation, Respect, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_03 18:40

To a certain degree, some of those things helped me. They helped me. Like they don't help everybody, you know, and I don't I don't espouse bullying, hazing, any of that stuff because obviously it's led to people, you know, committing suicide, people getting hurt, all that. But to me, it it kind of made a challenge for me. Like, hey, I don't want these guys talking shit to me all the time. So I'll just go get in the gym, man. I'm gonna start, you know. I'm gonna go, oh, look, go find that big tub of protein powder and go start working out, man. Like, you know, I mean, right? I it's like tough love almost. Well, and the inmates were on the same, you know. When I first started, those everybody there's weight pile, man. Hey, how big dude? How big, bro? Big. There's big giants. There's some giant dudes, man. And um, you know, mostly the the bigger dudes were actually pretty like mellow and just like all they cared about was the weight pile program, and most of them were programmers, but still, you know, it can be intimidating. I mean, I was like 21 years old, 6'4, 185 pounds when I started, you know. Pretty skinny, 180 at 6'4. Yeah, and these dudes would walk in the chow. When we fed in the chow hall, these dudes walk in the the chow hall like damn man, you know, it's it was intimidating. I mean, you know, but you have to you have to be able to take that and and turn it into something that you can work with. Like, okay, yeah, I see that, man. Like, you know, but I'm smarter than to get into something where that's going to be a factor if I can help it. I mean, sometimes shit happened and you just did what you had to.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

So from what I've heard from you, you entered an environment where there were some big, muscular, mean, violent inmates, and you came to the conclusion I should probably get into good shape and I should probably figure out a way to successfully navigate these waters.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Yeah. I didn't take the alternative route of going and getting my arms sleeved with tattoos. I decided to work out and eat protein and try to physically make myself better.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Back in the day, in the 80s or the 90s, you can open up a strongman magazine, you have Arnold Schwarzenegger, you have uh Venice Beach, Muscle Beach, and you're like, damn, that's a man, right? That's like alpha. That's what people do. That's if you want to be big and buff. You were aspiring to be become physically fit. What year-ish did you see the change where people started neglecting their physical fitness and getting more tattoos?

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Once again, probably the early 2000s. It was I think it was just more of a trend for younger guys, the whole tattoo thing. Yeah, it's a trend thing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

It was a trend that evolved into something else, so because it can almost be like fake toughness.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

I think there was a huge factor of that. Um it's you know, it's not even really be about being tough, it's about being prepared. Like, like I said, even all the time I spent in the gym and you know, all the protein I took and all this, you know, creatine, all this crap we did, you're still like at the disadvantage in there if you're gonna get in a fight. You just you just are. I mean, there's so many factors. First of all, you have The the initiative is always in the inmates' hands, you know, 100%. To take the initiative and you're defending yourself. Um, these dudes, I mean, man, some of these guys, they're just like non-stop, they work out all day long. Burpees is bad. Yeah, 500 burpees a day, just jumping up, yeah. Bar work, you know, every lunges on the track, walking lunges. And so it wasn't about like, yeah, I'm gonna be just like them or be as strong as them or whatever. It's just, hey, I'm gonna be the best version of me I can be. So if I get caught up in something that's that's like life-threatening for me or other staff members, I want to be the best I can be. Right. Regardless of what ends up happening at the end, man. I mean, you can't control the outside factors of other people, you just gotta be the best version of yourself.

Getting Off First And Reading Cues

SPEAKER_02 22:49

I'm so fucking glad that you clarified the it's not about being tough, right? And I don't think that I preach like be a hard ass. I think I want you to help me tell it the story that we're trying to tell of experience. Like, you seen that video recently of the female correctional officer that is having a verbal artification with a black inmate, and it seemed to be another state. Yeah, what were your thoughts process on that? Because ultimate the re the result was the dude stomped her out. Stomped her out, man. And this isn't Monday morning quarterback, it's just like what mindset should officers be having entering those walls?

SPEAKER_03 23:31

Well, so I did see the video on Instagram or Facebook or something, and you know, the first time I watched it, I had no idea what this video. And so I was watching it, I was watching the inmates' body language and what that staff member was doing, and it was all wrong. I mean, this guy was basically letting her know, like, hey, I I'm not, I don't want to go to the next level. I mean, he's basically begging when somebody like that, I guarantee you that dude has a long history of violence in his life. If he's begging you not to take it to the next level, you should probably listen. And second, like she wasn't physically up to the task of of handling that guy by herself. I don't know, it sounded like it's a pretty petty violation of whatever was going on. He was mad about his cell getting searched, maybe, and he didn't want to leave you know the officer desk area. Just call for help, call for a supervisor, get the I mean, like, honestly, you know, strategy. Yeah, I mean, I would I feel like maybe if she was a better communicator with those inmates in that unit, she might have been able to talk him down. But I mean, from watching the whole results of it, I would guess that she wasn't a very good communicator with the inmates in there. Now, what happened in the end, the sickening, right? You know, like, man, hey, that dude, you know, there's nothing justifies any of that. Like, that's just animal animalistic behavior, man. Like facts, you know, like yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

Now, now help me teach these youngsters because they refuse to listen. One instance you just said, hey man, de-escalate the fucking situation. The dude is telling you back off. How does that vary when you have an active motherfucker aggressively closed clenched fist in your fucking face about to pop you in the mouth? You better get off first.

SPEAKER_03 25:21

Yes, bro. Yay! That's one of the first things I learned in prison. Get off first. Like if you see something is imminent, don't wait for it to happen. Like, you know what I mean? Do something, be proactive. But man, that never needed to go there, really. I mean, facts, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

I hope the young crowd is grasping everything we're you're telling them because like it almost seems like Chinese arithmetic was these fucks, bro.

SPEAKER_03 25:49

I you know what? I think sometimes people just can't help themselves. Maybe they get in that environment. Um, like you know, maybe that individual, maybe that CO was having a bad day or something, but you can't come in there with your mindset like that. I don't care how bad your day was, you just made it a hell of a lot worse.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

So, would your advice to correctional officers be, hey, you're gonna have to make a lot of decisions in your head while interacting with these guys?

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Yeah. Oh yeah. And you just have to learn how to communicate and have to learn how to read the room, you know. I mean, you know, like it seemed obvious. I mean, it's almost like it's almost like it was a dog and she just he's growling and she just keeps pushing him and pushing him, and she's got his bone or whatever. He wants to, and and like you then the dog bites you and you're the victim. Right. Like I said, man, I can't justify anything that guy did. But man, you know, you got yourself bit. Like you that didn't have to happen.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

I think I just identified something, man. It's maybe it's because they grew up on on the iPad, they are unable to read cues.

Old‑School Training And Tough Love

SPEAKER_03 26:55

You know, my thing is they have the screening process for correctional officers, right? They do a psych, you know, they do all these interviews, they have an academy where they train people. And for someone, you know, that was another state. I think it was Ohio, maybe. I don't even know what it was. Indiana, it was one of those states, and I have no idea what their standards of training are, but like, I mean, you you you shouldn't have people walking into she that could have caused a riot. I think the other officer got beat up too. Somebody could have got killed, the whole unit could have gone off, you could have had a hostage situation. So many things could have happened that were even worse than what happened, which was pretty bad. Right. So it's like, you know, to me, that's just it's it's unconscionable that you have staff members, she's not being supervised adequately either. Right. Like if she has a sergeant or whatever, uh and he sees her. I mean, me as an officer, we would put other officers in check for that kind of stuff. 100%, dude.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

There's several times we did that. Let me ask, give us an example or a scenario where officers would check another officer for being out of line.

SPEAKER_03 28:06

I can think of one that that happened. Um, these inmates were coming back from the dining room, right? And they had some burritos they made up there, you know. And actually, what they did is they took whatever was for chow, chopped it up, and used their own tortillas made burritos, right? They came back to the block. It was the block next to me, not my block. And that officer grabbed the bag and took it from the guy, right? And the guy started arguing with him, and he basically just started arguing with the guy and escalating the argument, right? And being disrespectful. So I came over, I'm like, hey, I got the inmate to leave, and I'm like, look, if you're gonna confiscate it, which hey, we're out there with a wand, right? We have we have a metal detector. Wand it, you know. I'd want it, hey, there's no weapons in there, inspect it. I don't care, man. Why do I care about some dude making burritos up in the chow hall with his own tortillas and whatever shit was left over from chow because it was just like, you know, the slop they fed everybody, but you know, he wanted to hook up his friends or maybe sell them on the tier. Right. But okay, so it's con, you know, it's technically contraband. Um, so I can't tell him, you know, what to do on that level. I'm just another officer. But I'm like, man, you can't disrespect these guys like that. It was on BR. And I'm like, you disrespect these dudes like that. And he came down and he, a couple of his homies were with him, a couple of his, you know, his guys, man. Like, okay, now you're gonna get in a fight with this dude. These other guys are gonna jump in. I got to jump in. These guys may have a weapon. Who knows, man? It may not go the way we want it to go, you know. So, over what, some burritos? Like, come on, man. And he kind of listened. He ended up getting his ass whooped by an inmate like months later. Like doing over time somewhere. You end up getting beat up by an inmate later, you know, like in another situation. And it's like, it's one of those things like, man, you know, you guys just don't listen. And then I actually talked to him after that, and he was a little bit more understanding. And it's just like, man, you gotta pick your battles, dude. You could be in there if you were in there sweating every little rule violation, every little unimportant thing that happens in there, you man, you can have a long ass day, and you're probably gonna end up getting retired early, you know. But it's almost seemed like he got lucky getting his ass kicked instead of getting stabbed, bro.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

But you have to do it.

SPEAKER_03 30:31

It could have been worse, you know. He was able to go back to work, but uh yeah, and he wasn't the first one. I mean, and that was kind of like the officers that I associated myself with that were kind of on the same page with me. That's how we were. We would check officers for that. Check them for disrespecting inmates in a certain kind of way, you know, because it's like, hey, what are you doing? You know, like you can't talk to someone would come from these other facilities and they'd be working there for the day. Oh, like working on an SNYR, hey, you fucking child molester come here, and they go to a GP. Or they were used to like working on CR and they're level one. Yeah, they they had their little tier tenders that they like jaw jack and you know, all that stuff. And I'm like, man, you can't like these dudes over here, you don't know them, man. You can't just disrespect these guys like that because some of them are waiting for an officer to give them the green light to assault them. Right. Like that's you know, they got all day and they're being cool, they're just like doing their thing. Most of those guys are the guys that don't talk. But then you come at them with that stuff, they're waiting for that. They're waiting for an excuse to fuck you up, you know.

Fitness Versus Fake Toughness

SPEAKER_02 31:43

I think no, I know that God put you in that chair right there, bro. And I say that because there is nobody else other than you saying the truth to help these youngsters. Like at the academy, what they're teaching them is like, hey, these inmates are your friends. This is a California model, shake their hands, play video games with them, uh, play softball, but they're not teaching anybody how to be a fucking correctional officer.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

I'll say one thing. I maintained good rapport with the inmates in my block. I mean, there was always people that, you know, whatever. There's inmates that didn't, you know, didn't like me, don't like guards, whatever. We didn't talk. Um I maintained good rapport, but I'll tell you what, in 29 years, not one single inmate ever asked me to bring some shit in. Facts. Like never nobody ever, hey Johnson, you know, bring in a phone, or nobody ever even brought that shit up. Because they, even though we had a good rapport and I joke around with them and stuff and whatever, man. Um they knew there was like a there was a boundary, man. It's kind of like what we talked about before, you know, with the the Ralph Wolf and you know, and the and the uh and the sheep, Sam the sheepdog. That would have been an excellent example. Yeah, like they they like we had this boundary that we didn't pass, but we could like be be you know on a level, a certain level. Yeah, man, there's still dangerous bringing in contraband. If something happened on the yard and all right, they'd probably stab me. 100%. So and we had those discussions. One of my one of my uh workers, man, and I got along with this dude really good. You know, he he was a Serenal, you know, he was fairly high up, and and he's like, Hey Johnston, man, if I was stabbing somebody out there and you were on the gun, what would you do? I was man, I shoot you, you know. So you guys had those discussions, but it was like I said, in the same token, I go, What are you gonna do if we're in a riot and it's us against y'all? Oh, he goes, I'm gonna stab you, bro, if I can get you. I'm like, so I said, I don't take that personal, you know, and he didn't either. It's just like that's the way it is, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Dude, it's like memory going down memory lane, man. Uh, can you talk to us? Can you tell us about the timeline resulting in the time you got assaulted by the Crips and the dynamics behind that?

SPEAKER_03 33:54

Yeah. Um, as I I mentioned it to you, it's it's interesting because that happened on a week when two things really kind of changed my trajectory in my career. So it was a Sunday, there was some kind of uh a war between the Crips and the Whites from Sacramento, the Sacramaniacs. And so at that time, the whites weren't really unified on B Yard, they were in different cars, and like there was some kind of beef between them. They had this little ongoing war. So they they called this guy, he was like, you know, supposed to be like the main dude for Sacramaniacs. Called him to go to visit. I got done working in the chow hall. I didn't have any of my equipment, of course, and I'm just kind of hanging out, and he's walking down the track and he walks through the Crip area. Somebody runs up on him, just stabs him, right? Gets him good. Well, while that's going on, another group of three Crips is walking up towards where the whites are playing handball. So I see that a bunch of staff sees it because the towers tell them to get down over and over again. It's it's in September, man. It's who stabbed the white? Another white crip. No, it was Crip. It was a it was like a a war kind of going on, but it wasn't really a riot because why wasn't it a riot? Because the other whites were like, eh, you know. What do you mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You had like the sacramaniacs, you had like the Cocoa County car and some other dudes. And back then there was just a lot of like old white dudes programming.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

And like I've never heard of nobody jumping.

The Crips Assault And Aftermath

SPEAKER_03 35:27

Yeah, it was it didn't happen, man. So they were probably just not, they weren't organized, they're kind of weak, you know, like so they're just getting picked off. But um, so but these three dudes were going up to the handball court because the inmates stabbed his celly and another dude were up there that they wanted to get. Um, and so whatever, they're gonna go up and stab him. It was a hot day, they're wearing all state blues, their boots, they had gloves, beanies on, and stuff. And so the blacks. Yeah, the three crypto going up. Um, and they get about to Central Tower and they finally get down. And so when I come back to the watch office, there's about 10 staff members there. And I said, Hey, did you guys see like those dudes didn't get down? You know, I mean, I wasn't like a new cop, I had like eight years in, but I was pretty inexperienced. You know, I've just mostly been in chow halls on third watch and stuff. And uh, you know, the sergeant goes, Yeah, we need to go get him, right? So I take off with the this very senior yard officer, really good yard officer. He had like 15, maybe 18 years into that time. Um good dude, always on the yard. So we start walking up the track towards inmates, and I remember, man, like it's quiet and everybody's looking at us. So we get about another 20 steps in. I look back, ain't no one coming with us. It's just me and him, right? So fuck. So they're all just like watching us, right? So then I'm really like, man, this is not a good idea, you know. But I'm just kind of along with this dude. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, you know, hey, he's going up there, I'm going with him. Right. More is more his thing than mine. He's going up there, I'm going with him. I don't know about these other guys. They all found something better to do or whatever. Right. Conveniently. But everybody's watching. As soon as we get up there, I don't know why. He told he told this guy to stand up. Well, all three of them stand up, and I see this dude has a piece. He has a weapon, right? In his glove. And I tell him, hey, get back down. And this other guy hits me, right? Just, you know, like there's a guy here, guy here, one in the middle, one in the middle hits me in the jaw. And uh, I remember, I mean, I can see it to this day. The weapon, I think he had it in his hand, but he punched me instead of stabbing me. Because they just needed to like they they messed up, they didn't really get where they're supposed to be, whatever. They had to do something or they look bad. So he socked me and he dropped the weapon. So I thought I got stabbed. I remember the weapon like clear as day. It was about a six-inch rod, and the where the handle was was bent down. And um, I actually know exactly where it came from because we had these sheet pans that had a metal, uh steel reinforcing rod all the way under the the the rim of it. It was about eight feet long. And so we how long? About eight feet long because the the sheep is a big, like the sheet pan they put the cinnamon rolls on. Eight feet? Yeah, because you're looking at like it's probably a big sheet pan. It's probably like two and a half, two and a half, one, so yeah, probably about eight feet. Eight inches. No, eight feet long and about half inch wide. And so these inmates were prying them off. Oh, sure. We had kind of somebody had figured it out, so we were trying to get rid of all those sheet pans, but that's where that piece came from. And it like all that kind of clicked in my head, right? I got knocked down. I didn't get knocked out, I got knocked down. I got up, the mini, the the tower shot the mini over our heads. Shot? Yeah, yeah. You shot the mini right over our heads.

SPEAKER_02 38:53

Hold on, timeout. What year was this? 95. 95. Yeah. You're a you're uh CO, you get punched in the fucking kisser right on the mouth in the yard, and your country and your gun. My partner's getting assaulted too. We're getting assaulted, and your mini 14 fires. In your humble opinion, do you think that prevented them from progressing?

Navy Reserves And Mindset Shift

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Yeah, because they got down, then we were like all on the ground fighting, like little kids at that point or whatever. Right. Like, you know, nothing, whatever. I was mad. I was just trying to get some get back and whatever. And uh, you know, some officers ran in, and that was kind of it was a wrap, you know, it wrapped up pretty quick. Um, so I remember, so I get up, man, I'm walking in, and all the black inmates are cheering, you know, because they saw me get knocked down or whatever. I'm like, oh man, what the fuck? All right. So, you know, I go down to medical. Um, they send me and the other officer out to uh Folsom Mercy to get x-rays because he got he got hit in the head. I don't know if he got stabbed or punched or what. Um were you pissed when the other inmates were cheering? Yeah, oh yeah, I was pissed. And so I remember me and the other officer were sitting there at Folsom Mercy. And actually, one of the inmates was in there because somebody broke his leg with a baton. And so he was in the other room screaming or whatever. And I look at the other officer and I go, Hey man, you going to work tomorrow? He goes, I don't know, you I go, Yeah, I'm gonna go to work, man. I said, them fools were like cheering, like I got took out, man. Fuck that, you know. Yeah, so I came back to work the next day, man. I got overtime out of it, you know. I was like, you know, I'm not gonna, you know, I mean, you know what my some dudes get like assaulted like that, and you like they'd be gone for a month or waiting or milking it. I'm like, nah, I'm coming back tomorrow, so these motherfuckers know they didn't do shit, right? So interestingly, in that chow hall, my my lead cook was a crip, very influential crip, and um uh the assistant cook was as well. So I think we had like I man, I think that we had northerners on the yard at that time. So they didn't slam the Crips as a result of a step. Oh yeah, they slam, they slammed everybody. We had like bulldogs and Indians in there or something like that, right in the chow hole. But we were up on the tier feeding, so I went up to my my lead cook cell. And I'm like, man, what was that shit all about, dude? He's like, Oh man, well, you're taking that shit personal. You just in the wrong place at the wrong time. He said, Hey, those guys had to do something. Like, you could have been worse. You didn't get stabbed, you're here right now, right? Like, yeah. He's like, he goes, Man, you can't you can't trip on that, man. None of that was personal, dude. You just, you know, they had to get off. I was like, all right. You know, I started thinking about it, and it's like it that's just the way it is, man. Like it wasn't nothing personal. We just went up there, those guys had to do what they had to do. I never let it really bother me again after that. But I'll tell you what, that's when I got really serious about getting, you know, going to the gym more. Like I kind of like go a couple days a week, whatever. Right. I got consistent, man. It got consistent after that. I got really consistent after that. Then three days later, I swore in and joined the Navy Reserves. So that kind of like changed my kind of my trajectory as well. Like going into the reserves, it it kind of helped me refine my mindset to to a certain extent. Um, I mean, it kind of ruined my life in other ways, man. It just but how did it refine it? Like give you more, give you discipline? Well, because I started training and doing something different, like working on like learning tactical operations, all this kind of stuff. And I was like, well, you know, it just made my mind, I think it just matured me. It just matured me, you know, yeah, in a different kind of way. It was a good influence for me. You were a little warrior in the making, bro. And you had just got tested. So, dude, I actually joined the reserves because this is a 95. There was nothing really happening. Yeah, I'd see all these other guys, they'd get one weekend off a month, yeah, but you get paid to go get off. And I'd never had weekends up to that point. Um, they'd go to like Hawaii for two weeks, all this cool shit, you know. Oh man, I just came back from England or or whatever, right? So I'm like, yeah, that would be cool, man. We go into Hawaii and San Diego, you know, and you know, we go down to TJ, we'd come down here for two weeks, we go down to TJ and party, all this stupid shit, right? Yeah. So um that's really why I joined the reserves, man. I mean, to be honest, I never never been in the military. I just thought it'd be cool. You know, where'd you end up? What different locations? Um, so I was in that unit. The unit I first got put in, it was at Naval Weapon Station Concord, and we loaded our job was to load ships with bombs and ammunition and build these like wooden structures that hold it from moving around in the ship, right? Which is cool. Like they'd show us these movies from like the ship, like you know, during Vietnam and whatever the bomb got loose and a blue hole in the ship, all this stuff. Man, they hadn't been loading ammo on ships like that for like 10 years, dude. Like, so they basically were teaching us a completely obsolete job. Sound about right. Yeah. So I did that for like three years, and they eliminated the the the The unit just you know did you ever reach like a supervisory rank in the Navy? I was in E6, E6 class gunners, mate. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

I mean, I was LPO in a lot of units, which could you tell didn't you tell me about a time where another supervisor tried to get crazy with your your sailors and you had to check them? Well that is more than once. It happened more than once.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

So as a result I almost got kicked out of the Navy because of that. On my last deployment, man, I had so that was in 2016. I retired in 2017. I had 19 years in the Navy. Damn. And um I volunteered to go on a deployment, and it was what's called an IA. Okay. Individual augmentee. So they just take 135 people from all over the Navy reserves, stick them in a unit to do a job, right? I didn't know any of these people, man. I didn't know any of them. And um yeah, like we got caught up. It's super a lot of details. Basically, it got caught up in a situation where I had a team of six of us that had a specific job that really was not um what the rest of the group was doing. And but the chiefs and the officers, you know, of the unit tried to shit on us, and uh but it didn't go well. And you stood up for your yeah, I probably went a little too far. But yeah, like they were like, Yeah, man, dude. It in the in the end, I ended up on a conference call with a navy a Navy captain, my OIC who was uh lieutenant commander, and me on a conference call, or because this lieutenant commander wanted me kicked out of the Navy because he's afraid of me after this.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

Right before you said this Navy story, man, I want to go back to how the staff assault you were involved in, and I want you to somehow make this make sense to me. It was a staff assault in which resulted in an inmate getting his leg broken, the mini 14 getting fired, and getting put on a lockdown. How in the hell did we go from that to 2020, where they stab the shit out of COs, and then you give the fucking inmates barbecue plates an ad sig and reward them, or a watermelon field in Ironwood State Prison after a massive staff assault.

SPEAKER_03 46:21

What were the changes? Yeah. Man, I don't even know how it got to that point because we didn't really like that when I left, but man, we had long lockdowns and we like we would bust out all the inmates if we thought, hey, this group of inmates, fuck them, you know. The administration bust them all out to some other joint, man. It just I think all the lawsuits and stuff like that. Lawsuits affected that? Yeah, yeah. A lot a lot of stuff affected it. But it's funny you bring that up, man, because I go to a Rayleigh store that where they do the when they do the food sales at the prison, the guards come and pick up the food. And they every time I go in there, they're getting food for a food sale. Yeah. Like that stuff used to be a couple times a year, like, you know, for like a special occasion or just, you know, whatever, like kind of a morale booster. Now they do it like it seems like an almost like an unending basis, like a just part of canteen or something.

Lockdowns, Food Sales, And Policy Drift

SPEAKER_02 47:19

So if I'm an outsider, I should be able to say, hey, Jimmy, well, then then that that means prison's perfect. That means there's zero violence. If we're giving them uh foods from Rayleigh's and we're giving them outside food, prison should be perfect. Is that an accurate statement?

SPEAKER_03 47:34

You know what? I think I really think that in the past we punished the violence with group punishment. And I think that they've gone away from that. And maybe there's like specific, you know, um strategy of why they do it. I don't know. You know, the that was litigation when they got away from the group punishment. Yeah, I mean, the group punishment, let's face it, you know, it's not always the best way to do it. You know, I mean, you don't want to reward bad behavior, but you don't want to like make make the toxic situation worse.

SPEAKER_02 48:13

I don't mind the group punishment because even though the Sureños will say you mess with one bean, you get the whole burrito. They'll all jump you if they have the opportunity. Well, cool, I'm gonna slam all of you. That's why I don't mind it. You want to play by those rules? We'll play by those rules.

SPEAKER_03 48:28

And that's pretty much what we did. Right. You know, what they're doing now, though, I don't know what the the whole strategy is, and I I don't understand like the 50-50 and all the stuff that's going on now. Like they're taking like active gang members and putting them on yards with dudes that are no good. Right. But they just figure if you have even numbers, it's just gonna be cool. Kind of like it's like you got a fish tank, you know, and you got some Oscars over here, and you got some Jack Dempseys over here. Like you think it's even numbers, like they, you know, man, it's I don't understand how they how that even functions. Like these dudes have to be on some kind of uh protocol to get off with a certain amount of time. So um maybe because of those dynamics, they can just keep running the yard because a lot of the inmates are not really, you know, they're just reacting to the violence. They're not necessarily creating it. I don't know. I don't know how that even works. It doesn't work.

unknown 49:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:30

It doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

So, in uh order of priority, what would your advice be or what priority would you put um if you were a new officer joining this department? You got the academy instructors telling you one thing, you got the IST managers telling you the same thing, you got administration telling you this, you got Hector Bravo on the internet. What should your priority be? Safety?

SPEAKER_03 49:58

100% safety. I mean, that's why you're there. I mean, but man, that's such a huge umbrella. You know, safety could be anything. Safety is learning how to communicate and avoid things from happening that never should have happened. That's safety. Yeah. Um, so how do you do that? How do you learn that? Uh not everybody can learn it. Like you can put it right in front of people, man, and they just, you know.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

What about now that we're getting we're getting to the juicy part? What about a sergeant or a lieutenant or a captain or an AW giving an officer a lawful, uh, unlawful order, which we see it all the fucking time. We see, we tell, we see managers give officers uh unlawful orders that violate local operating procedures.

SPEAKER_03 50:47

I'd say this you better know the rules if you're gonna you know go against that, if you're you know gonna try to push back on that. And I hope you have somebody strong in the union in your in your chapter that's gonna back your play because it's happened and people have uh pushed back on it and been able to you know reverse some of those things.

SPEAKER_02 51:07

But I'm not saying lit that's one way. That's one way. But you you said you've done it when the sergeants were refusing to come outside when Cortez smashed, uh stabbed that officer, right? I'm saying those that type of like, hey man, what can you what can a correctional officer do to save themselves?

Safety First And Unlawful Orders

SPEAKER_03 51:26

Don't be scared, man. I mean, hold your mud. Sometimes you gotta confront them. I mean, that's just me confronting that sergeant, like I talked about. I'm sure afterwards, you know, he was bad. He probably thought, man, that guy's a fucking asshole. Excuse my language, or that guy's, you know, out of line. I just think about writing him up or whatever. But eventually he probably got the hint, like, you know, hey man, I I should be doing my job. I hope so. I mean, I hope that like the dude learned something from it.

SPEAKER_02 52:01

Like, um, but you also don't strike me as a type that would be a crybaby and just cry about everything. There'd be too much shit to cry about. Exactly. So would you relay to an officer, like, hey man, you're gonna have to sometimes fight battles against your supervisors, confront them, but fucking pick battles worth fighting.

SPEAKER_03 52:20

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I mean, the whole picking your battles is just a major part of working inside a prison, but yeah, like being married, yeah. Pick your battles and everything, relationships, um shoot, like pretty much everything, every aspect of life. And you know, I I think you just like I said, I was a young kid, and I just developed a certain kind of way over my experiences, you know, and things that happened and things I saw and what made sense to me, what seemed like the right thing to do, smart thing to do, right thing to do. Um, and I guess that varies by individuals, you know.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

Is there any body worn camera or administrator that would ever keep you from defending yourself?

SPEAKER_03 53:10

No. No. Why? Because that's your inherent right of self-defense. Every animal on this earth has that. Every animal on this earth has an inherent right of self-defense. If something is trying to kill you or harm you, you have the right to defend yourself against it.

SPEAKER_02 53:29

Should at the moment of being attacked when your life is in danger, should the logic be, well, I'm gonna get in trouble if I defend myself.

SPEAKER_03 53:36

You shouldn't even be thinking. You should just be doing. Elaborate on that. If you're thinking about it, you you're already, you're already done. You're already done. Violence of action. I mean, that's if it's coming to that point, like the way I looked at it, like, okay, when we go these code threes and whatever, and these inmates would be rioting, stabbing each other, beating on each other. It's like I'm taking over. I'm gonna bring more violence until you stop your violence. Overwhelming violence. Yeah, and I mean, obviously, you know, I can only do so much. Hopefully, everybody else around me is doing the same thing. Right. But I'm taking charge. You know, I'm like You're gonna dog. I feel like I'm robbing a bank and I got I got the gun. You know what I mean? Like, I'm gonna be in charge, you're gonna do what I tell you to do, or we're gonna use force on you until you stop doing that. I mean, that's your job in there. You know, I'm not trying to, I don't have like, you know, fantasies about hurting people. I'm not, I don't think it's some badge of honor to hurt anybody, including inmates. Correct. Um, but there has to be some order, man. And and you're supposed to be an engine of order in there. You're supposed to be a a a part of this machine that keeps order inside the prison. Public safety outside of prison as well. Yeah, yeah. And it's, you know, like the whole week link thing you hear, like, man, all it takes is a couple week links and everything breaks down.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

Then that is what they're not teaching them in the academy to bring order to be the motherfucker in the storm, right? To bring that controlled chaos, to restore order.

SPEAKER_03 55:16

I think there needs to be some kind of mechanism in the academy where I don't know if it's a a council or a group of instructors or like where they can pull people out at a certain point and go, hey, you're just not you're just not built for this. You know what? And we're gonna put you in. We have all these other state jobs, like maybe sit them down in a room and offer them like some other state positions, like, hey, you we just feel and have like you know a blueprint for it so you're not just using that on people you don't like. That makes sense. It's kind of like the military, but that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

Yeah, like I mean So you're still keeping a candidate that's passed all your application processes, right?

Self‑Defense And Overwhelming Force

SPEAKER_03 55:58

And it's like I I know they need people to man these positions and do all this stuff, but it's like they there has to be someone there that goes, man, this person should not be going to work in a prison. And there they are graduating. And and it's like there should be some way where they take some of these people and just hey, you know what? It's just not a good fit. You're you're probate. I never saw anybody get released off of probation. Remember, you know, you're on probation and apprenticeship, right? In the prison. Did you ever see anybody get fired off probation, even though they sucked? I didn't. I never saw anybody. Some sergeant would like check off some shit or whatever. Right. And it's like for a job like that, that's that demanding, um, that dangerous, you should have some mechanism where people go into the academy and if they're not suitable, they're sent somewhere else. They're offered a different position.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

I think we're a fuck. I mean, I said I think we're a long way away from that. I think the whole thing is screwed up, man, from everything from the academy, what they're teaching, right? Because what good is it if you bring solid motherfuckers through the academy, but you're teaching them shit. Are they smart enough to fucking identify what is shit and what is not?

SPEAKER_03 57:12

I don't know what their curriculum is, so I can't really say, you know, I mean, like that's one thing is I know some people are pretty high up in training and in CDCR. And I they're good people that kind of came up with us, and um, I believe that they mean well, and they're trying to build, you know, programs that that teach people the right things and train them. But you know, I I man.

SPEAKER_02 57:40

Let's be realistic, Jimmy. The facade of rehabilitation is a scam. It's a sham, right? So we're here to teach these cops how the fuck not to get killed, to utilize their fucking brain housing unit to get in the best shape of their life. But you're like, hey, some of these motherfuckers just ain't cut for the job. I mean, uh, pretty much, dude.

SPEAKER_03 58:03

I'm sure you saw that too. 100%. Yeah. Well, there were like there was like at least three. And I don't think the officer's job is to rehabilitate. I think that there's there's staff and there's programs that assist with rehabilitation if an inmate is really trying to make a positive change in his life. You know, what I saw, you know, on my level when they started doing that thing with the wobblers on the three strikes guys. Uh-huh. It's not like these guys, like all of a sudden we had Toastmasters, we had anger management, we had all these programs, right? And I, you know what? I as an officer, I was supportive of it. Right. Because they're do-I mean, they're doing something positive. Right. They're not kicking your ass, yeah. But they're just in there trying to get like checks on the box to get out. Does that necessarily necessarily mean they want to get out and go be some productive member of society? I mean, maybe, possibly most likely not, because you know, some of them were gang members and uh we offered them, well, hey, if you want it, you know, to be considered. I remember the counselor telling one of my porters, like, if you want to be considered, you know, and and and help yourself, we're gonna move you to CR. Oh, I'm not going to CR. I'm not going to CR, you know. Right. Yeah. Right. And and he could have, but you know, right. But he decided he didn't want to do it because it was kind of, you know, he was proud of he was an active gang member, man. And so it's like you're clinging to that gang member part of yourself, and you're trying to get out at the same time. And I guess those kind of inmates have to have to figure out what's most important.

Who Should Wear The Badge

SPEAKER_02 59:46

Well, they have to, it's that's a whole identity crisis. You actually have to kill off the old version of yourself and then they'd have, yeah, they would have to. So rehabilitation, like, so I don't know, man. Real quick. These new officers don't know what they don't know, right? So they need to understand exactly how dangerous their environment is right now. Considering at one point in time we had levels one, two, three, four. You had condemned in San Quentin. What about now when there's all these level four overrides onto level twos? You have condemned inmates, you have male, condemned inmates in female housings. How dangerous is it for the staff with just the way the rules have been thrown out the window?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:29

Yeah, I don't know how they even manage some of those programs. I mean, like what the written rules are or like just the written rules are the written rules. The whole theory of like how this is gonna work.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

You know, I I it like Well, you tell me if I'm on a level one yard or if I'm on a level two yard and I have a condemned fucking killer on there, how dang how much more dangerous is it for that new CO with no gun coverage? When policy states there should be gun coverage.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:56

Yeah, it's definitely not being made safer. And I'll tell you something too. The department's not gonna take guys like me and put me training COs, right? Right. Where, like, honestly, it would be good for them to have the influence of even guys that are retired to be like, hey, you know, here's like the basics. Here's the basics. Maybe it's different now. I don't know, but like you have to know the basics to to run these kind of like a prison, man. It's like it's so what are the basics? I mean, security institution, doing your job, being vigilant. Um man, you know, communication, of course, but not to be complacent, not to be asleep on the job, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:42

But the mindset now, and I've seen it, is eh, I'm not gonna do anything, I'm gonna sit right here because they're gonna fire me. If I do anything, I'm just gonna sit right here. Why is that not a good idea?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:51

So I remember an officer told me there was a riot, and and people were shooting the mini, inmates were getting shot with the mini. There was a lot of this this officer just shot the the block gun. Whatever. And afterwards, people were like, oh, you know, kind of talking shit about him. And he's like, You're never gonna get fired for what you don't do here. You're gonna get fired for what you do, you know. And then he's like, I didn't see anything, you know, to shoot with a mini, so I didn't do it. And like people, you didn't care what other people thought, but his basic tenant was like, you're never gonna get in trouble for doing less. That you're gonna get in trouble for doing more.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:35

That statement is no longer true in 2026, and I'll tell you why. The two officers that let inmate Hernandez escape from Kern Valley State Prison, they got fired. Right? What they didn't do was fucking capture him. What they didn't do was assure that the ensure that the restraints were on properly. So by them kicking back, just whatever, right? And it's not a Monday morning quarterback, the motherfucker went to Tijuana and killed a cop. The Salinas Valley State Prison Grinch murder, where she was fucking stabbing in the eye, or the the vic the inmate was stabbing the that correction officer did not shoot that mini 14. They're occurring under fucking federal litigation right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:14

Well, yeah, people have to think like they don't listen, man. There's a reason why when you go to the academy, they have range, and they teach you about the mini 14, they teach you about the 40 millimeter launcher, you know. They basically run it all down to you when to use what, you know. Well, use this one for that, use that one for this, don't use that one. And yeah, you can use the 40 as lethal force. You know that you could aim, you could target the inmate's head. Right. Um, say all you had was a 40 and it popped off in your first shot, shoot him in the head if he's killing somebody. If it meets the anti-force question. I mean, it's like the the thing is, okay, you're probably gonna get sued. You know, say you shoot the say they shot the inmate that was doing the stabbing with mini 14 and he died. His family's gonna sue. 100%. But now the guy that got murdered and nobody did their job, he's gonna sue you. And you you, you know, litigations, uh, you know, it's it's like, look, what do you want to get in trouble for? Doing your job or not doing your job, you know?

The Hidden Toll: Divorce, DUIs, Suicides

SPEAKER_02 1:04:19

Right? Bro, we are uncovering, we are digging every layer. I'm not giving these assholes any room to question us, to question you. You had some correctional officers that threw chemical agents, they're gonna say, bro, we did our job, we threw chemical agents. What is the mentality, the mindset between like being realist, being real? Like, come on, bro, there's a mini up there. That mini should have been fucking used.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:42

I would say if there was a clear shot during that incident, that that inmate should have been shot with a mini. I mean, it's that's my opinion. 100%. But like going by the the use of deadly force policy that existed the whole time I worked for the California Department of Corrections, I'm sure has not changed to because if it changed past that, then just don't have a mini 14 up there. There's no point, you know, like it's more of a liability.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:10

It's safe to say that if an inmate stabbing another in me in the eyeball, that would meet the deadly force criteria.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:15

Yeah, I would say that you're pretty, yeah, you're pretty good on that one.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:20

I'd say you, yeah, you could probably do it. Now, oh bro, I'm a master at what I do. Is CSCR a good job just to put food on the table and put Nikes on your kids' feet without going to work, not expecting to do a fucking thing to or to defend you or your partners?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:40

No, I mean it's a mindset job. You have to have the right mindset. You have to go in there with the you have to go in there every day, like, hey, I might have somebody try to kill me, or I might have to kill somebody. Okay. That's what those inmates think every time they come out of that door out of their cell. To go anywhere, right? And rightfully so. If you're going to go in that environment, you're going in their environment. You are not an inmate, you know, but you're in an environment where that's the rules. So you should do your best. Like I said, I never consider myself any kind of badass or whatever, but do your best to be as prepared as possible for the eventualities that are going to occur. I mean, it's obvious from looking at what's happening in the department. Still, it was like that when I was there. It's still like that. You know, there's a lot of violence, a lot of people dying. You shouldn't be looking at it like, oh man, you know, I got 20 years to go. And, you know, I just come in there and, you know, like, like I said, man, these dudes coming into work with a big box of donuts or big bag of greasy ass burritos, you know, and get the greets like the bags all wet. Like, man, you got you you're thinking the wrong shit, man. Come in here, get your work done. Try to be somewhat of like a warrior in this environment, because you have to be, you know. It's it's just where where you chose to be. It's not a state job. You're not like, you know, out there, you know, picking up paper and putting it in printers or whatever. I don't know what other people do in state jobs, but it's not what prison guards are supposed to do, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:30

Why is the environment violent like that? Why do inmates think when they come out of their cell, I can get killed or I'm gonna get killed? Why does that environment function like that and will always be like that?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:46

It's just the culture of look, like, first of all, they didn't get in there for singing too loud in Sunday school. You know what I mean? Like, these guys, by the time they get to that level, look at look at the courts now, too. True. These dudes are like bailing out, bailing out, bailing out on probation, bailing out, then finally get caught for like some heinous shit, right? But like for the last two years, their whole trajectory is leading towards this. They're just a fucking criminal, man. They're like, you know, they got full automatic weapons, they're stealing shit, they're jacking people, they're killing people, they finally get caught, they go to prison. Well, what do you think's gonna change, man? If anything, now they're like in this enclosed environment with a bunch of other people like them, like they're gonna be more violent. It's just part of their culture. And I'm not saying a culture like how some people are saying it, because it's all races of these dudes going in there. It's oh, it's the whole show. I'm not talking about like it's the whole show. I'm not talking about the culture or whatever. It's just like I hear what you're saying. It's a prison culture. Yeah, it's it's just criminal life culture. Criminality. And like you're you're you're go you're you're agreeing to go into that. But you should know that. Like you're when you're swearing in to be a peace officer, when you're filling out that application for department, or I guess you do it like this, now you don't do it with a personal. Correct. Oh, no, no, you do it on the cell phone now. Yeah, whatever. But um, when you're doing that, you should be thinking about that. Like, not just like, oh man, look at this. It starts off at$47.95 a month and it caps out at 9349. Well, that's a lot of money, you know. It oh I mean, it's cool. I'm glad they pay COs decently. Absolutely, you know, and and um it's just man, you know, and I think I think a lot of guys come in, or say people, men, women, whoever works there, come in knowing the environment they're going into, but maybe not completely. And hey, I didn't know. Like I said, I was just a dumbass kid that you know wanted to get a job of benefits.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:51

Right, nobody's gonna be able to do that.

Coping Skills And Side Hustles

SPEAKER_03 1:09:51

But I went in there, but I already knew like this ain't no joke. Like you're going into like a dangerous environment, you better watch your ass, you know, like and and and do whatever these other officers are telling you to do. I learned everything. Man, you know, we used to have IST, OJT, all that crap, right? Somebody check off some boxes. Everything I learned from experienced seasoned officers and experienced seasoned inmates is like how I learned how to be a CO.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:20

They're gonna say though that they're no longer around.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:23

Well, which is true. Maybe so, but I you know what one of the things I I felt like I was doing, and I saw other officers doing it the last few years of our career was trying to like school some of these guys, like, hey man, this is the way stuff should run. Like, you know, don't do it like that, and don't you know, don't do some of these stupid things that you know cause problems or or just teach about the whole dynamic of how things work. Um but you know, eventually it it's it's like that game where you tell someone a word, right? And it goes around the room, but telephone. Yeah, by the time it comes back, it's a different word. You right like word of mouth stuff only lasts so long, and um it yeah, it definitely is not the same for new employees to come in there and to learn how to do it. And I don't know if things have really changed fundamentally with the inmate culture as far as a way to communicate with them. I would think not, you know, I would think it's pretty basic.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:25

Fundamentally, I mean when you're dealing with EOPs, that's a whole nother fucking world, dude. That's a whole nother world. That's like trying to talk to people on Skid Row and having a conversation while they're high on fucking bass salts. That's dangerous, bro.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:36

Yeah, even on an SNY yard, right? Whatever, it's the same principles. And don't think that on some 50-50 or SNY yard, there aren't some dangerous dudes, there's some dangerous individuals on every level. There's guys in level twos that are dangerous, very dangerous. There's guys that start as level ones. There's like a lot of politics in level ones, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:00

Yeah, because they're getting the dope into the main institution.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:02

And a lot of those dudes are like, you know, more down than some of these dudes that get up to level four and get all goofy or whatever. But like it's at all levels. Um man, you know, it it'd be a tough career to get into now. That's how I feel about it. Like if I was 21, I would I mean, obviously, if I was on the same path, I'd probably do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:23

But hey, Jimmy, I see I hear what you're saying. Like it would be a tough career to get into, right? But I also see the reality of things. And I think even if it was a tough career, which it is, I think approaching it with the right mindset would assist him.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:39

I mean, to me, that's everything with everything you do in life. Once again, that's like a life lesson. Proper mindset for being married. Facts. When I was in the military, I learned the proper mindset, like the things to be, the things to be focused on, the things to not worry so much about. Um, but yeah, you should be going into a prison every day thinking about you're going into a prison every day. Not scared, not worried, but just like, okay, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:07

Hey, bro, not scared, not worried, but also not burying your head in the sand and laughing and masking. What do you have to say about the how they're masking the realities with alcohol? Staff suicide rates are up, uh, marijuana usage.

From CO To Real Estate

SPEAKER_03 1:13:23

There, there's always been a lot of staff suicides, man. I mean, I don't know if it's up or if they're just maybe it's getting more publicized. We had a lot of bad shit happen. People, you know, killing themselves, their families. Their fucking families? Yeah, all kinds of stuff, man. I mean, even when I was a newer CO, some things happened where you're like, and I don't necessarily put that all on the job, though. Like, I, you know, some of those guys were fairly new. I just think they're they're just fucked up. Like they were just good. I worked with this one guy, I shouldn't laugh, man, but this dude was whack, man. I mean, he was a youngster. He was like our age, um, a Hispanic dude, and he carpooled with us a little bit, me and my buddies. And um man, he would do stuff like with inmates.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:14

I'm like, yeah, like what?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:16

Uh he's just like over the top, you know, with like uh putting inmates in check. Let's put it that way. Did he end up offing himself? So what ended up happening, his wife became a CO at an at Mule Creek. And so she started going carpooling to Mule Creek or something. She ended up with another CO from Mule Creek, right? So how often did that happen in the department? Man, you want to get rid of your wife? Go go get her a job application for the department of corrections, dude. This is gonna happen. You get yeah, you're gonna get a divorce. That's why I tell people, like, oh, your wife don't get along. She go get her application, get her, she can become a CO, man. You don't have to worry about it. You guys get divorced, you make the same amount of money, no, you know, no alimony, you're good, right? But um it's sad, man. Um two small children, and he went to her house, and I think he was trying to like make up or you know, but it all went bad, and she pulled a gun out, and um they start wrestling for the gun, and she she I don't I don't think the guy intentionally shot her. I really don't because I knew the dude pretty well. She got shot in the stomach and she was dying. So he took the gun, he shot himself in the neck, and died. And I and babies, like two and a three-year-old, right there, no stand there watching. Yeah, and it's you know, does did the California Department of Corrections do that? I don't know. I can't blame them for that. Like, I think just sometimes people are messed up, and maybe that environment, though, that environment did influence the chain of events that led to that. But I can't no, bro, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:56

That environment did induce the chain of events. Yeah, she joined the department, she went to Mule Creek, he was a CO, right? So it has a nexus, it has a nexus, yeah. It may not be the contributing factor. There may be some underlying factors and mental health issues, but let's we got a little bit more time left. Let's talk about that environment being what I would consider toxic. Is it a positive environment or is it a negative environment?

Closing Thoughts And Resilience

SPEAKER_03 1:16:21

Oh, it's definitely a negative long-term environment. I mean, just watching my own trajectory as where as well as my friends and other people I've worked with, um few have escaped the the like the you know the suction of of working in a prison and what it can do to your life. Very few have escaped it. I mean, some of them have most of us have dealt with it in a way to like, okay, these things happened. We're young, we learned a lot. It's too late for some of these things to make them right, whatever. But you have to move on in life and realize your place and what happened. You know, take your ownership of what you did. Um but yeah, it's just I man, I can't blame the Department of Corrections, but that environment. It it's my experiences and the people I saw when I started, a lot of young COs when I started, we were all youngsters, most of us. You get caught up in the way inmates are too, as well, because it's kind of the way staff like we have our own, like had our own parallel cultures going on, right? Kind of that were influenced by each other. And um, you know, some people would take too far certain parts of these other cultures, right? Oh, yeah, like bringing in contraband for the image. Well, or just like wanting to be violent with other officers or you know, just taking things to the next level, or yeah, sometimes I mean I know I know officers that got went in inmates' cells and got tattoos. No, no way, dude. No way.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:03

Yeah. In your history, in your experience of working, you actually know of correction officers that got tattooed by inmates? Are we talking about the inmate in their cells? Are we talking about the inmate tattoo machine?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:16

Yeah, yeah. Oh god. I mean, I worked, yeah. He got caught and he admitted it, you know. But he keeps that job. Nah, he he ended up so man. I I forgot about man. This is bad. Every time I talk to you, I remember shit that I forgot. You probably forgot on purpose. I forgot on purpose, and it's so I yeah, I had a couple years in. This dude, uh he kind of looked like a mini Hulk Hogan. Kind of a little little like kind of a biker type dude, and uh he was funny, man. He's actually pretty cool, but yeah, he he got caught up in some stuff, man, and this inmate tattooed, like he showed me a tattoo of work, right? So it was a skull with like the crossed Folgers Adam Keys on his calf, right? And uh, I was up in the control booth, man, and um he's showing it to me. I'm like, what I mean, okay, cool, man. Like, what the fuck is this guy doing? Is what I'm thinking. And I made the mistake of telling another officer, you know, I was young. That officer went and ratted on this dude. Because this officer I didn't know was a was a big time snitch. Yeah. And so he told on them. They had like this meeting, and the program administrator, supervisor was there. He's in there and he goes, Yeah. He pulls up and he shows it to him. He's like, I did that, you know. So what he said he did it with his own, you know, he got the pattern from the inmate or whatever. Um he ended up getting fired because there was like this bus that used to go to the casino and Reno's, like a gambling bus. And him and his wife went and like they're taking the bus back, right? And he fell asleep. And he woke up, and him and his wife and some dude were messing around or something. So he's like hit his wife and hit the dude. I don't know, hit him catching a domestic violence or something and getting he's gone. I don't know what happened to the dude. But yeah, there's there's like, see, there's guys that were just like a little too far over on the on the other side of that boundary.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:22

Like is domestic violence amongst correctional officers uh common in CDCR? Yeah.

unknown 1:20:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:30

Is DUI driving under the influence common?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:33

Yeah. Amongst correctional officers. I would say probably more than average you know, people out there. Is divorce common amongst correctional officers? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I would say in most law enforcement, but the people I was around, yeah, a lot of divorces.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:50

Maybe people just needed to hear that. Just that. Just that. Ain't nobody ever fucking told me that prior to fucking becoming a CO.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:59

It it is kind of like you'd see guys come in, they're younger dudes in their 20s and they're married and stuff, and you you'd almost see that they're kind of innocent, right? And like probably had a fairly good life. Then they'd come in there and just over time, their whole their shit would just fall apart. Banging whores, banging whores into the body. Their life would fall apart, like all kind of stuff would, you know, and like they'd get divorced and the unhappiness, and then you know, there's drinking, they're putting on a lot of weight, whatever. And um now, can you put a price tag on that? No, there's I mean, I could never be like I've been through some shit in life, man. I'm not even gonna go into details. I've been in some pretty low spots, not gonna lie. And uh, you know, you I'm I've always like took a minute, resolved it to the point I can resolve it to, then move on because there's just too many other things in life that hey, I have kids, so I have people depending on me, man. So I can't just drop everything and and crawl up in a ball and you know, suck on a bottle of vodka for the rest of my life. It's like, hey, this happened, it sucked. This is my part in it. Like, you know, take ownership of it. The other person, man, that you just forgive them as much as you possibly can and move on and try to like focus on being healthy and and you know, like no victim mentality, man. You cannot have a victim mentality and work in a prison. And it's like victim mentality to me uh comes in different forms. It's not just you know, the outward part, it's the way people hurt them. You know, they're victims, they're they're hurting themselves because they they feel guilt or shame or whatever else. I mean, I saw it in the military too. Self-medicating, yeah, and just you know, destroying themselves knowing they're destroying themselves and they don't even care, you know. And um, yeah, I I mean I've seen that happen to quite a few people in both the military and in corrections, and it's kind of sad, like is it's extremely if you met them when they were like happy and you see them at that point, you're like, you know, what happened? But it's like the cumulative, all this these things cumulatively affecting you, and you don't have um a mechanism in place to deal with it. Like, you know what I mean? I would go to the gym every day for two hours after work, work out hard, man. You know, and then when I when I would leave to go home, I wouldn't be thinking about work. I would just be thinking about what I'm gonna do at home. You know, get home, I want to eat, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:37

Let's cover some positive coping skills. So we covered a whole shitload of fucking negative. I mean, what you said hitting the gym, therapy, eating healthy, having hobbies.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:46

Hobbies, yeah. I mean, another thing I think a lot of these officers should do, my opinion. I wish I had done. I'm kind of figuring it out now. Have a side hustle, man. Fuck. Yes, have something that you really like to do. Maybe you're really good at something, maybe something mechanical or you're artistic or you're uh you know, man, you just autistic or artists. Well, autistic CEOs, bro.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:11

They're already there.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:12

Whatever. That's part of the test, I think. But no, but you know, like something that you're good at that you can like first of all, kind of um do something that makes you feel good about yourself, maybe make some money. And then also when you retire, have something that you're interested in. Like, hey man, I've been doing you know, restoring cars or something, or you know, I do real estate now, you know, I'm retired. Um, if I'd been doing it when I was a CO because other COs were doing it, facts, and they were making money doing it. I was just never interested in it. But now I think, man, if I had so I kind of had taken a little bit of this, because we all waste so much time. Like if I take a little bit of that time and done started it doing it then, like, where would I be now?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:52

You know? Let's dive into that, man. I've really appreciated this conversation. It's been totally different than the last one. I actually feel like you've been just schooling me, schooling us, giving us life lessons, life lessons that we can apply in not only corrections, but in all aspects of life. You've since been retired and now you're a a real estate agent, dude. Yeah. How the fuck, bro? Were you nervous to try something new like that?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:16

You know what? I I've always been interested in it. Um, I actually got my license when I first retired from the Navy. Okay. So I retired from CDCR. I did my last deployment for a year, then I retired from the Navy and I got my license. And um, my sons were young, man. They were it was just, I was going through a custody thing. It was just, it was too much for me. I couldn't really, and I had the idea, I'll get this license, and you know, I thought like business was just gonna fall on my lap. It's nothing like that. Super competitive. You really have to be driving the business. You can't just have a license, it doesn't mean anything. I got a couple deals under my belt, then I decided not to do that anymore for various reasons. I started bouncing at a nightclub and doing executive protection. Yeah, you know, kind of just reverted back to my, you know, experiences in the CO world, military world. Right. Um, did that until my sons graduated high school. Were you happy doing the executive protection? Is you know what? It actually wasn't bad, some of the jobs. Okay. Me and you've discussed like different jobs that like I don't like sitting in a car for 12 hours peeing in a bottle, dude. Correct. Like, you know, I don't like doing those kind of things, but I had some pretty cool jobs, but they were like they're contract jobs. Like you might just work there for that day, go, you know, drive this like high-level CEO around, whatever, make sure he's safe, get them from the airport, back to the airport, his meetings, whatever. Those are cool, but like you can't live off them. They're not it's not constant work. Being a bouncer in a nightclub, man, is dealing with bullshit, huh? It was a lot. I mean, the people I worked with were cool, so that's why I did it for so long. But at the end, it's like, yeah, man. It just dealing with drunk people and just all the crap. And you know, you get caught up in a lot of violence too. And it's like, it's not like when you worked in the department, you don't have like the, you know, one thing about the department of corrections is if you get into something and get sued, you have the department, you have the attorney general's office, the union, all these people that are kind of buffering you as an individual. So doing private security, you get caught up in some of these lawsuits, man, and it's like you're out there on your own. Um it was cool while it lasted. I I actually wanted to run a business, an executive protection business, but the state changed the rules for how you get the license. And it was just it was gonna be too much for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:46

So you're a successful real estate agent, realtor, uh, former correction officer, and you said right now in hindsight, your advice to correction officers now is like, hey, dude, it's almost mandatory that you find another. Line of work andor side hustle to survive.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:03

War, yeah. And another thing I wish I had done is deferred comp. What is that? I don't know if they do they still have deferred comp where it's like the 40147. Oh, yeah, yeah. 100%. 457. They pull out before taxes and whatever. Um, I remember I probably had like a year in. This older guy's like, hey man, you're doing deferred comp? I'm like, what's that? You know, and he ran it down to me. He goes, put in just a hundred a month. He goes, with taxes, it's only gonna be like sixty something dollars, right? He goes, You're never gonna notice it. But I'd like to live paycheck to paycheck. Right. But man, imagine if I'd done a hundred a month back then, then I slowly increased it with every raise or whatever. Like so I did do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:46

And it is a good starter, right? If you're just fucking straight from brawly and don't know shit about investing, like that is a great starter, right? But if knowing what I know now and probably what you know, I think it's utilize that money to invest in other things: stocks, gold, silver, real estate, boom, you capitalize on that motherfucker big time.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:06

Yeah, I mean, you should be investing in something because when you retire, that check is not gonna cut it, man. It's not gonna cut it. It's it's actually if you do your full Monty, well, now you can only retire with 75%, right? Like, that's it. You I don't think you can retire with more than that. I retire with around 87%, something like that. So now is it true what they say that you're making more money than you retire? I was, yeah. I mean, a little bit, like not noticeably more, just like the taxes are different and the deductions and stuff. But um yeah, you need to plan for that, especially these guys are gonna be doing it until they're 57. It gives you time to like figure out some kind of a plan. Like they should be going to, but it's tough, man, because once again, it's like it's like that vicious cycle. Because I'm saying that, but I'm also saying this knowing that you're gonna get probably get divorced and being paying, you know, at one at one point, I I volunteered to go to Iraq in 2004 because I was paying half my take-home check in child support. Half. Child support and alimony, half. That's like when we made$3,800 a month. So I had like$1,900 a month. I've been living in the single one-bedroom apartment for like two and a half years. I mean, it's on me. I got divorced, whatever. I owed like$30,000 on credit cards, man. I was going out every weekend drinking.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:33

I'm gonna throw up.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:34

Yeah, and it's like I did this. I I volunteered to go over there for a year because I'm like, man, this is my only way to get out of this. And honestly, when I left, I didn't care if I came back. It was that bad. Like, I was like, whatever happens, I'm not even tripping, man. Like it just whatever happens, happens. I'm I'm you know, I'm going with it. And it worked out well. I ended up paying off my bills and whatever. Then I then I came home and I met my twin's mom. Yeah, you know, and just that just started the cycle all over again. You know, it's like yeah, just um, you know, we're gonna man, we're gonna do dumb shit. Like it just gets in our own way, like we are gonna do dumb shit. Maybe, maybe like listen to people like me and think, okay, this is probably gonna happen to me, so how do I plan ahead to somehow survive it? Facts, yeah. Dude, where uh did you just recently get a Nevada license?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:30

Was that different? An addition? Yeah, I'm still waiting for it on you know to get it in the mail, but yeah, just recently. So where can people find you on Instagram? How can people contact you if they're interested in buying a home? Is it only for uh Sacramento area people? Give your spill, dude.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:46

Oh no, I mean all of Northern California for sure and northern Nevada. Jimmy J Property Plus on Instagram. That's me. Follow.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:56

Well, thanks, dude, for coming all the way down here again, bro. This is one of my most favorite fucking episodes, bro. Definitely history, dude. Locking it in the time capsule, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:06

The good thing is, like, we didn't even a lot of this stuff we didn't even really talk about in advance. It just flows like you know, the way it came out. It's the truth. And and like like I tell you, man, my meaning is not uh I'm not trying to tell like I'm I'm super cool for my whatever happened in my career, any other stuff. I I just hope that like some of my experiences helps other people get through that career and just like life or whatever, just paying forward, yeah. Or you can just say, okay, you know, see some commonality in it, and maybe like, hey, I've been through some shit, man. The real low spots, it's gonna be okay. It's gonna, it's gonna be okay. You just gotta be resilient, you just gotta get through it, man. Believe in yourself a little bit, you'd be all right.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:55

Appreciate you, dude. There you guys have it, folks. Man, couldn't have said it better myself. If you guys are struggling or going through it, rewatch this episode. If you like what you saw, make sure you hit that subscribe button. Love you guys, keep pushing forward.