Inside a Level 4 Prison: How Gangs Turn Boys Into Killers

We sit down with Rudy, who served 25 years for a gang-related murder, to unpack childhood abandonment, prison politics, heroin addiction, riots, and the slow, stubborn work of change. He explains how sobriety, accountability, and compassion opened a path to parole and a life of service.

• moving homes, motel living, and a father in prison
• third-grade violence, shame, and no coping skills
• juvenile hall as status and belonging
• the drive-by, denial, and a 50-to-life sentence
• county indoctrination and heroin as anesthesia
• Level Four yards, assets vs detriments, stabbings
• riot video, disillusionment, and mindset shift
• laws like SB 260/261 and a door to board
• programs, education, and dropping the gang identity
• daily cell reality, lockdowns, hunger, workouts
• GP–SNY integration risks and culture clash
• a roadmap for lifers to build parole readiness
• machismo, asking for help, and living amends
• e-bike commutes, quiet freedom, counseling others
• compassion at home as prevention

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Transcript

Meet Rudy: Childhood Roots Of Chaos

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to our channels, Warriors. We are still growing. Today, another banger for you guys, man. I have the privilege of talking to a man who served 25 years behind the California State Prison beginning in the year 2000 all the way up until 2025. We have none other than Rudy. What up, Rudy? Hector Bravo unring. Yes, sir. How are you doing, sir? All right, man. Thank you for taking the drive and the time to come and talk and tell your story, dude. For sure, bro. As we were saying earlier, your story is going to help people, bro. Thank you for having me. I think you know that. I think your story is going to help you.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Um, you know what? My whole positive message is to help, and if I can share my story to assist someone from changing their perspective, and then yeah, that's that's what I'm here for.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Let's do it, man. So where did you grow up at?

SPEAKER_02 1:00

I grew up in San Fernando Valley, Los Angeles County. Okay. San Fernando Valley in the 80s. I was born in 78. Um I was constantly moved around a lot. Uh my father was in prison, so we constantly kind of followed him. And um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Your father was in prison. From the beginning, that you can remember, was he always in prison? Um, no. No, he didn't go to prison until eight 1986. So he didn't go to prison until 1986. You were born in 78. Yeah. Do you remember what that what your emotions or thought process behind that was?

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Yeah. What was it? I I didn't understand it, and and I couldn't identify my emotions at that time. I just knew that I missed him. Oh, I feel like. And so so when when I was with him, I always felt attached to him and I felt like I was safe with him. And when he went to prison, I felt like a little of that was was didn't exist anymore. And I didn't feel safety. So, but yeah, I remember I just I really couldn't identify what it was, and and and now understanding it, it was abandonment. I felt abandoned when he left. And so it took years for me to identify that. But that's huge. Abandoned, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

That's huge. Because by being able to even identify abandonment, that's like a trigger, also.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Would you go visit your father in prison?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Yeah. Yeah, we would. My mom would uh uh get me and my older brother, my middle brother, and uh we would we would go visit him. And he he was in uh in whatever prison he was at, we kind of would live in that town he was at. Like we lived in in in um um Colinga because he was in Solano. Okay, or or one of the prisons. Then he we lived in uh Baccaville because he was in uh Baccaville. And so yeah, wherever he went to, we kind of just traveled over there to stay with him and visit him.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

What would you guys like like were you guys just going from apartment to apartment or where were you guys going?

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Yeah, well initially what what we would do is we would get a motel. And so we didn't have very much money. So what my mom would do is she would clean the motels and then give us free uh rooms. Interesting. Yeah, so that's how we that's how we lived, and so we lived in motels for months at a time. And uh and we would even go to school and and come back, and that's where our house was at the motel. So where did you go to different schools? Yeah, yeah, I went to like 20 different schools. Damn, dude. Yeah, I went to 20 different schools, and the only reason I know this is because I I had to do a timeline for parole board, and I had to identify like where did it begin and where did it end. And I counted from the first from kindergarten all the way to the 12th grade was 20 different schools. And and that was what there's no stability there. There's no stability there. No, there wasn't. No, once my dad went to prison, it it it the instability it was is there there wasn't any. There was, I mean, then my mom was permissive. I used to be able to do whatever the hell I wanted, and I mean she wouldn't enforce no rules, and so I mean I was ditching school from the first grade.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Damn, that's wild, dude.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Yeah, so in the first grade, and I mean, and it's funny because I used to forge my report cards, and my brother used to help me forge my report cards, and um, and and I turned uh F's into Bs, and I mean, so yeah, so I was doing that at five, six, seven years old. So very criminal-minded at a very early age.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

During this time, was your father establishing any parental guidelines or foundations upon you or trying to instill any? Um while he was with us, yeah. No, no, while he was incarcerated.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Um, a lot of it was listen to your mom. Okay. Um however, I knew that that once we left that visit air visiting area, I mean, I didn't have to listen to her no more. It was only while he was he was present. And and it was almost like the the meanie was listen to your mom while I'm around. And that's kind of how I took it. Because and that was the only time he's mentioned it, that was the only time I heard that was listen to your mom. So it was mainly just listen to your mom when I'm around. And for me, it was like, okay, well, when you're not around, I'm just gonna do what I want. And essentially I did.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Wait a minute. Weren't didn't you tell me earlier they they they they used to bring contraband in there?

Early Violence And Coping Without Skills

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um I remember my mom used to bag up little balloons. No. Yeah, and and we'd be in the motel rooms, and I asked your mom, what are you doing? And she's like, Mio, get away from me. Don't she was very, very uh um distant and very um short with me a lot a lot of a lot of uh times growing up. But um, but yeah, that was something that I used to see. I mean, and uh so I mean that's something that I normalized and and eventually something I ended up doing.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

And we'll get you that, we'll get you that down later on this massive story, dude. So when did the trouble with the law begin?

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Um it began at a very early age. Yeah, probably when I was maybe like in the third grade. Third grade? Yeah, maybe the third grade.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

What do you mean third grade, dude? Like what does the third grader do to get uh law enforcement called on him?

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Yeah, um, well, I pulled out a knife on uh I pulled out a knife on a on a little girl who was teasing me because I have long eyelashes.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

And she was Do you have long eyelashes? Well you did at the time. Let me say that. Yeah, I did at the time. That's actually a good thing, though. It's a good trait, man. Girls love that shit.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

So so I was being teased, right? And she and I was being teased like that that I smelt like pee and I was having long eyelashes, right? And uh so and at a young age I was used to wet the bed, and I was very shameful for that, right? So I knew that that was something that that she hit me, right, with like where it hurt. So I remember I went home and my older, my oldest brother, he had came to visit us and uh he brought a butterfly knife. And I don't know how I ended up keeping it, but I ended up keeping it. Yeah. And uh, and I remember where it was at, and and I went and grabbed it and I took it uh to school. And I remember telling myself, if I get teased and she teases me again, I'm gonna pull this knife out. And and I didn't know what I was gonna do with it, but I eventually stuck it to her neck and I told her, You better leave me alone and stop teasing me. The cops were called and I ended up going to counseling, and and um I was um discharged from that school, and I had to find another school, and and uh, and and I believe I went home and my dad whipped my ass for that. But that was before he went to prison.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

I want to thank you, and I appreciate you being open and honest, bro. Like that can't be easy to share, but I know that that's the reality of certain people, man. And the world needs to hear that. That every not every motherfucker grows up in a white picket fence, motherfucking perfect lawn. Right. Hey, it's it gets real out there. Yeah, and that was my normal.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

That was my normal, bro. Yeah, I didn't, I mean, I I didn't I didn't know no other, and then being teased about it, and and I mean just being teased and then getting bullied as as I aged, and I mean, and and it just and it just evolved to to to me getting bullied to me turning into the perpetrator, and it starts at a very early age, bro.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

So looking back in hindsight, can you see that it was lack of coping skills, which is automatic because you were only in third grade. Could you see that it's lack of coping skills that would lead to such behavior?

SPEAKER_02 7:55

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And and so and when you say coping skills, I I look back at at my life at that age, and and I mean, I know my my my mother and father they loved me, right? And so, but there was no coping skills instilled, right? And and there was a few emotions that that I I remember um witnessing, which was anger and and happy, a lot of it was anger, right? Right. Um, so I mean my my daughters, my my excuse me, not my daughter, my father, I remember him um sh being able to show the emotion of anger easily. So that was a coping skill that that I witnessed him showing. When he gets angry, he lashes out. And it definitely was instilled in him.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Hey Warriors, if you haven't already signed up for our all new website, HectorBravoshow.com, make sure you sign up at the link below, Hector Bravoshow.com to watch explicit, uncensored, never before seen prison footage. With that, love you. Keep pushing forward. Knowing what you know, man, and there's a lot of men still behind the walls, still with life sentences. Knowing what you know and your experience, how would you uh describe what a coping skill is to them?

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Yeah, for me it's uh it's a way to deal with something, right? So if I'm feeling humiliated about something, um, my coping skill would just kind of maybe positive self-visualization, positive self-talk, maybe talking myself down. Like, you know what, I might I'm I might not be that bad of a person, right? A coping skill is uh maybe someone that disrespects me, right? And a coping skill will maybe be positively just talking to myself, or or maybe even kind of maybe talking to him in a maybe in an assertive way, in a way where just kind of de-escalated, or just giving them that, right? I mean, coping skills for me, I mean, I use them throughout my day, right? I use them throughout my day, and it's it's just talking to somebody, talking to somebody about what I am dealing with, and that's definitely a coping skill that I use today.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Now let's be I appreciate you that let's be realistic as possible, knowing what you know, knowing what I know about the prison setting. In the prison setting, it is derived as respect is huge. And if you feel disrespected or slighted, the expectation is to act upon it. What good message or advice would you give knowing those that situation and reality, bro? Reality, like, hey man, that's for the birds. You should probably try to go get the fuck, go home.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Right, yeah. So a lot of it for me, it was immaturity. And and for me, it was it was the persona of how someone's gonna view me, right? So if someone disrespects me, I gotta, I I feel like I have to react because I don't want this person to to see me as that, right? I mean, even though I didn't believe it, and and and or maybe for a long time I did believe it. So it, I mean, it's it's it it it wasn't worth it, bro. When I think back, it's all bullshit, bro. Like, like the cause that I was fighting for, the cause that the that that I invest in, the cause that I got a life sentence for. When I think back, and after I was sitting in the shoe and and sitting in solitary, and I'm like, what the hell am I doing? But yeah, it was it wasn't it wasn't worth it, bro. What's worth it is being home, being with my family, being with my wife, and and and just building myself up, bro. And and I mean, it's it's I just got out six months ago, and I mean, and and I feel like like I've accomplished so much, and so yeah, bro, there's so much life is so beautiful out here. We just had a Carnasala burrito, bro. Exactly, bro. Doesn't get much better than that, dude. Thank you, bro. And and it does, and it's and it's like the prison is for the birds, bro. And and it's and it's strange because and and I mentioned something to you about manifestation, right? Right. We manifest our destiny, bro, because when I used to go visit my dad as an eight, nine-year-old kid, I told myself that's exactly where I want to be, because that's where my father was, and I looked up to my father. I wanted to be accepted by him, and for me to be accepted by him, I gotta be in prison. So I manifested that and and I went full circle with it, right? But yeah, you man, you can manifestations for real. And now I manifest a happy life, a positive life, a wife. I'm I I manifest now just being productive and I love it, bro. I mean, I ride an e-bike to work, and it's no nothing freer than riding my e-bike in the rain.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

And that's Oh, you got an e-bike, dude?

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Yeah, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

How fast does that shit go? Do you ever max it out or no?

SPEAKER_02 12:17

No, yeah, max it out. It goes 35. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's it's the the adventures and the journeys that I take it on, bro. Like if we can sit here and talk for hours about it, bro. But but yeah, it's it's it's you ever rode through some sketchy parts? Oh, absolutely. I live in a sketchy part. So so I always tell my wife, right? Like, like, I don't stop. And and every I ever I mean, I I kind of slow down when it when I'm getting to the red lights, yeah. But I don't stop, bro, because it's just so I I'm living in Oakland right now, right? Yeah, yeah. And it's just like seedy, and then there's a nightlife all in itself. And I get off work late, bro. So when I'm driving down uh in Oakland, I don't I don't stop. I hit I hit full pedal and and it goes 35 miles per hour. So I mean it's an adventure every night I get home.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

You ever stumble across one of those sideshows?

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Um yeah, you know what? I have. You did? Yeah, and and and and for the most part, like I don't I won't stick around. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and it's and it's very triggering because because I've talked to my wife about this, it's hella triggering because that lifestyle, I used to be intrigued by it. And there's a whole nightlife out there. And I don't even give it a second thought because I if I know I start having those reservations, yep, yep, yep, I could easily get pulled in. Exactly. So I look at it and I just reflect a little bit, and I might I may reflect in my mind, like, damn, I remember how when I was a part of that at one time, right? Yeah, but I keep it going, bro, because my main goal is is is getting back to uh to to my living and waking up and and and seeing another day, bro. No, I hear you, bro. As a free man, bro.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

That's priceless. Back to when you were whipping around a butterfly knife at uh in third grade, dude. By the time you got arrested for your commitment offense, I would land you in prison, did you have a lengthy rap sheet at that time? I did. You did? Yeah, I did.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Um so at that point, um, the the officers picked me up, they took me to a station, my mom pulled me out, and uh, but that's essentially where it started, right? And then after that, the next time I got arrested after that, or actually went to juvenile hall and and and and did six months in juvenile hall was in 1993. And that was for uh for vandalism and terrorist threats, and and that's kind of where it started in 1993, and and and once I went, once I got incarcerated, the first time where I stayed there, I mean it's it's it's it's it's horrible to say, but I enjoyed it. And we talk about camaraderie. Correct. And and I felt that little camaraderie that that that I wanted growing up, like that acceptance, and it was like we all accepted each other. We were all troubled, and we accepted each other, especially if we were from the same area. Okay, and that's that was the part that I that I gravitated towards.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Let me ask you something, because I really want to know this, man. I really want to know this. I want to use this interview and your story to like figure all this stuff out, dude. How is it possible that you guys enjoy Juvenile Hall when you don't have the Nintendo, you don't have your bike, you don't have like you don't miss any of that shit, dude?

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Um, I don't I don't man, I had a bike, I I might have had a Nintendo. It wasn't necessarily missing any of that. It was what I was gaining. What are you gaining? What I felt I was gaining was status and reputation at a very early age, right? And and I felt like if I'm going to juvenile hall, the more heart, the more the more heartache, the more I'm suffering, the more I go to jail, the more respect I'm gonna get.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

I never knew that that was the mindset, bro, that you're looking at your pro well, you're looking at the cons, but you're looking at them as pros.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Yeah, like like I really didn't, I really didn't worry about not having a bike or or I didn't value freedom, bro. You didn't value freedom? Uh-huh. Like the fucking be just to be able to open the door and leave. No, I mean, I it's sad to say I didn't value human life, I didn't value my life, I didn't value freedom, bro.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

I can guarantee you you did not like authority. Is that an accurate statement? No, no, I didn't. But Okay, then riddle me this. If a man doesn't like authority, he has to not like juvenile hall. Is that an accurate statement or it's not?

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Uh well that that's that's accurate, right? And and so I mean, it's it's it's difficult to explain it. I mean, for me, when when I was going through it, I enjoyed it, right? I I really did, and and but I enjoyed the attention that I was getting. From who? From the guys, right? From I mean, I'll I'll say from the homeboys. I get it. And so, and then and then, like, if you had a one or two homeboys in juvenile hall, we'd kind of group up and and and and kind of bully the other guy that didn't have no homeboys, right? That was from another side of the the town, right? So I I I I gravitated towards that, and and that was what what what I enjoyed. That's what what drove me was that status reputation from that one person just telling me, like, damn, okay, I mean you're you're you're cool and and you're down or whatever it was, that was that that was appealing to me. And so I didn't really worry about school or or or I mean going to 20 different schools.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

I I didn't really care about school. Knowing what you know now, and in hindsight, and I'm sure you read a lot of books in the shoe, yeah. I'm almost can guarantee it. Do you think that it's a system that the government has in place that it's kind of like a cycle?

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yeah. Yeah. So so with that, I've done some studying on that, and and a lot of it I can see is is it being filtering as far as like the low income places. So I mean, there's for me, I I I don't know exactly how the government works, but I think that, yeah, they're involved. I would think they are involved in some way or another by just kind of suppressing minority and maybe elevating the majority, or or maybe the other way around, suppressing majority, because now Mexican Americans are probably the majority now, right? Yeah, we're pretty we're rolling deep over here in Central California. So, yeah, I I can see that having a straight pipeline of juvenile hall to YAs and to prisons, bro. I can see that. Because it's money, it's your warehousing man for money.

Juvenile Hall, Status, And Numbed Values

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Absolutely. So juvenile hall. Oh my goodness, dude. This is a trip, bro. Like it gives me anxiety talking about juvenile hall or incarceration because that lack of freedom just I feel like I would asphyxiate. Or what's that when you feel like the walls are closing in? Claustrophobic. That shit. Did you you don't you don't suffer from that or you never did? Um, you know what?

SPEAKER_02 18:31

I I did. And and and at that, like taking myself back to that 13, 14, 15-year-old kid, that was horrible. But once we got out of the room, because we were used to be lousy in Silmar Juvenile. Once we got out of the room, it was almost like like like I would forget the way the room was, and I lash out, go to the box, and come right back and and just and and remember how the room. So it was like really short-term thinking. Because when I think about it, I didn't think long term. I didn't think like, oh, if I attack somebody, if I get into a fire and I'm gonna go to the box. Correct, correct.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

I didn't even think about nothing. You're fucking spontaneous, whatever's in front of you, you're gonna go.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Yeah, it's like very impulsive, right? So, but once I'm in the box or once I'm in my room, I'm thinking about it, damn, this shit sucks. But once that door opens and we go to school, we walk to we walk to uh to the to the um to the chow, yeah, we walk to medical, whatever we're doing, like I don't even think about the room. So it's yeah, very impulsive, very, very immature. And I think Which is normal, which is normal for youth, young men. Yeah, I did not think about consequences or or yeah, I didn't, bro.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

And I didn't think about consequences that at all, bro. You did not think about consequences. All right. Now, are you allowed to are you able to talk about your commitment of fans? Sure. You are? Yeah. So you didn't think about consequences, like what led up to that?

SPEAKER_02 19:45

No, no, I didn't think about consequences at all. Um, what led up to my crime, to committing the crime?

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Yeah, so I was a part of a gang, and and what happened is they came, uh the gang came by earlier that day to shoot up, to shoot one of my homeboys up, right? And um, and they missed, he didn't get him, so he comes and he tells us, hey, he just got shot at. So instantly, I'm instantly pumped up. I'm like, oh shit, okay, like we're gonna go retaliate. And one of my other homeboys that ends up um being the trigger man, he goes and gets the gun and he tells him, we're gonna go back. We're gonna go back and we're gonna go back to the to the gang and we're gonna go put in some work. So I instantly I was like, all right, I provided my car, I have my car. So now we get in my car, and the first person we seen that appeared to be a gang member, we got out and killed him. And we went to another neighborhood, and the same thing with him. Went in and we yeah, and so another victim? Yeah, well, well, well, these victims, there were four females sitting in the car, and what he did is he opened fire on in the car, not knowing that there were females, and so none of them died. They they they definitely got hit with gunfire. But um, but the one that died was um in in another in another vehicle.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

So I mean the you initially stated that you guys drove around for somebody that look appeared to be like a gang member.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Now, did it matter what gang they were from, or you were tar or it the target was that that opposing gang?

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Yeah, we were targeting two separate gangs at that time. Two separate gangs. Yeah, yeah. And they they're right across the street from each other, so it was very convenient for us to drive by, and this is very convenient or very inconvenient. Right? Right at the at the time, but the way I seen it, it was like, oh, this is a convenience, right? This but right, it's hella inconvenient.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Correct. Now, mindset, bro. Mindset how how old were you? 20? I was 21. Mindset, dude. Uh you've already kind of described your thought process and growing up. Were you were you were you wanting that? Did you know what was gonna lead you? Did you know that it was gonna lead you to how many years? 50 to life? Yeah, 50 to life.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Uh uh initially I didn't I didn't know it was gonna lead to that. And so I can I can I want I will give a little backstory, right? In 1998, my my oldest brother was killed in in a similar drive-by. And I seen it and I was there. So so after that happened, that kind of numbed me. And and and internally, I wanted someone else to pay for that. Like I wanted someone I wanted someone else, this family to pay for that. Because I seen how my family suffered, and I seen how I suffered witnessing him getting gunned down, right? So when after that, I was like just just heartless towards human life. And if it happened, I mean I was totally okay with it.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Hurt people, hurt people. Absolutely. That's what they say. And again, these are not excuses, right? We're not excusing your behavior and you've taken full accountability, but we're literally diving into the process of how something can happen.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, and hurt people, hurt people, absolutely, right? And I mean, for me, it stems as a child. It stems as a child from from being bullied, from being molested, from just being um abused. I and and I mean, when I say abuse, I don't want you to think that my mom and dad abused the shit out of me, but just the abuse comes in many forms, right? Comes in neglect, it comes in abandonment. Correct. Right? And and those are the forms of abuse as far as with my family. I I'm talking about, right? And and I was seeking something and and I was seeking attention. And at a very early age, I knew I could get it. And it was it was it was getting in trouble. Dopamine, dude. Oh yeah, absolutely. Dopamine's firing on all cylinders. All cylinders. Yeah, when I when I get that that that that rush or or when I know I'm doing something I'm not supposed to be doing. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Does everybody scatter go their own ways after all these shootings?

SPEAKER_02 23:45

No, we kind of um that same night we just went we went back to our apartment buildings and and we laughed about it, and we drank some beer, and and I mean I was smoking crack cocaine at the time and and and drinking, and and all we did was just continue just to get high and just kind of laughed about it and really didn't take it serious. And I and I didn't at that point I didn't know exactly um um who were the victims or if they even died or not until the next day. And then once I found out that there was females that got shot, like I felt like like horrible about it, bro. And and because I mean my intentions, I mean it's it's sad to say, but my intentions was to facilitate in the killing of a gang member, right? And then when when I found out that I facilitated in the shooting of a 15-year-old girl at that, that right there, just that it it fucked me up, bro, because now I know that not only if I get incarcerated for this, because now I'm going to prison for shooting a 15-year-old girl, and that's just all bad, right? And but not only that, is I have females in my family, and so just I can just think about if that would happen to them. So there was a little empathy, but there's I wanted to detach too because I know that if it that if I have to confront it, I'm gonna feel it both ways, where it's gonna be emotionally draining, and then I have to accept it, which that means that I'm gonna go to prison for it, and I'm most likely to be a victim for it because that's serious, right? So I just detached myself from it mentally. Um, I detached myself from it through the through the court system when I got arrested for it, of course. Like I did not want to agree, I didn't want not want to confess, I did not want to admit that I had anything to do with it, and I didn't. For the for 15 years, I denied it.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Who picked you up? Local PD or was there like a task force?

SPEAKER_02 25:28

No, it was uh Devonshire and Van Ice because there was happened two separate jurisdictions because there was two multiple drive-by's. One happened in San Fran um Van Nuys jurisdiction and one happened in Devonshire jurisdiction.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

How how many days after the shooting did they get you?

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Um it was it was relatively quick. It was like maybe a month. Yeah, it wasn't that long. Yeah. Yeah, it was it was quick.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

What ultimately led to like people talking?

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Yeah. It was uh well, the driver of the vehicle he ended up getting arrested for uh for for some other offenses, and and it was my car that was used. So my car was linked, and then they just had my car. They had um one of my homeboys telling on us or actually confessing. I mean, to this day, it's that he did the right thing, right? I mean, and and so then for a long time there was an animosity there because I was like, man, I'm fucking in prison, my homeboy snitching on me. But you know what, I deserve to be in prison. So, so I commend him to this day because he was young too, bro. He was only 17 and um he was a young kid. He they they they hit him hit us with the whole gauntlet. They scared us, and I just didn't I just didn't bite because I knew that if I admit to this shit, I don't want to admit to a 15-year-old getting killed or shot. So I just didn't say nothing, unfortunately, or fortunately he did, and and they relied on his testimony and and I got life for that. Did he go to prison? No, he got immunity. He got immunity, yeah. Was he present?

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Uh yeah, he was a driver.

unknown 26:52

What the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Yeah. How many total people were in this case? Um suspects? It was four initially. Four suspects? Yeah. To include that dude.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Yeah, it was yeah, me, and then hit him and then my brother and the um actual shooter.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

Where did they put the cuffs on you? At the pad?

SPEAKER_02 27:15

Um, no, no. They ended up raiding my dad's house at that time. And uh so what what happened is I had just left my dad's house. They pulled me over. Um, they they kind of disguised it as a regular traffic stop, and I stopped. And uh, once I stopped, there was just they just closed down the street, and like 20 police officers came out of nowhere with guns. They drug me out of the car, and to to the to the last minute, I was and they had pictures of me, they were looking for me, they were trailing me. For the last minute, I was denying it, saying that it wasn't me, that that picture's not me. And yeah, I was I was just at such a lot of people. Were they talking shit to you? No, not at all. They were actually being really respectful, and they were being really respectful, and and and well, they wanted me to cooperate because there was not much corroborating evidence, right? Okay. So no, they were being hella friendly. Uh, they're interrogating me for three days before they finally booked me. So I was sitting in the station, they're constantly coming back. And so what I did is I just I I I didn't plead the fifth, but I told them, yeah, I'll talk to you. But I was bullshitting them, bro. Right, right, right. Yeah, I was just like, I don't know what you guys are talking about. Just playing the game, bro. I mean, I was I was in denial, I was young, I was scared, I was like, I'm not going down for this shit. I already know that there's girls getting shot, somebody died. That's a life sentence. At 21 years old, I realized that's a life sentence. You ain't getting out. So I just played the game, bro, and went to trial three years later and got convicted and got sentenced to 50 years to life for it.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Your trial was three years? Well, it took me three years to get to trial. That's a long time, dude. I was in the county for three years. That's a long ass time, bro. Is that normal or is that abnormal or that's just the way it is?

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Uh well, the given the seriousness of the case, okay, it it was uh it was uh it was that long because it was a a murder and five attempted murders, so there was a lot of victims involved. And so yeah, it took a long time. Preliminary hearings, uh pretrials, and waving, and and yeah, it was a it was a long time.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Did they have the gun?

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Yeah, they had the gun? They did.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Yeah, they had the gun in my car. So the t the time you're kicking it in jail, are are you amongst other inmates?

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Yeah. GP. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Um, how was that how were you feeling there in comparison to Juvenile Hall? Were you feeling the same risk?

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Yeah, no, I'm feeling like this is it's so sad to say, Mr. Bravo, but I'm feeling like this is where I belong. Oh God, dude. Yeah, because I was embraced. I'm I'm in I'm in prison for for for the murder of a rival gang member. Oh, God, dude. And so, I mean, my all my homeboys were there, all the older homeboys were there. There was homeboys that I really looked up to, they're embracing me. Giving you props for, bro, they are, and and and they're giving me drugs and and and I mean, unfortunately, I was where I got strung out on on using heroin, was in the county jail. And yeah, so they're they're treating me like really good, bro. It's it's enticing. And and and and it's almost like um they're what what what you what you call is is they're um um not molding me, but what it is is uh Indoctrination? That well, not that, but is um they were just uh um man, I can't think of the word, but yeah, they're just molding me into be a soldier for them. You were right there, dude. And and yeah, and I and I was for it. And I knew that that I was gonna get life. I mean, I had a little possibility, oh I'm gonna beat this, but I figured like, you know what, I'm gonna get life, I'm gonna really indoctrinate myself into this into this gang. And and I mean, I was like, you know what, I'm gonna like really just be all in, be all in, and and and I looked up to older homies, I looked up to Mexican Mafia. So y'all was like, you know what? One of these days I'm gonna be a Mexican Mafia member, right? And I mean, it's all fantasy, bro. I mean, you you don't never just become one like that. But so I mean, my my my mind was all fantasy, bro. So so I was like, yeah, so that's this is what I'm gonna do, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:02

And so I mean, yeah, it was all foolish, bro. I was I was an idiot. I mean, what's crazy is that we have the beauty of hindsight and experience to look back on that and be like, dude, that was just a trajectory to hell, dude. That was a path of destruction. Yeah, yeah, in the way. And that was the early stages.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Yeah, it was. I was 21 years old, I mean, getting ready to get a life sentence. Um, so yeah, in 2000.

The Drive-By: Mindset, Loss, And Denial

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Yeah, that was the year 2000. Okay, so you get convicted, you're you're in the courtroom. I forget how because I've talked to numerous people too, and they say that they already you already know what you're gonna get sentenced, and then they just read it out, the judge reads it. Yeah, I knew what I was gonna get. And how did you feel when they said 50 years to life, 5-0?

SPEAKER_02 31:45

I wasn't sure if I heard it right. Because um, because I I I ran in and I asked, like, like did you say I asked the judge, did you say life like I'm never getting out? And she says, that's exactly what I said. 50 years to life. You'll be eligible in 50 years. She told me just like that. And I asked again, I said, So I have to do 50 years. I asked her that. So I have to do 50 years. And and she and I mean and I'll never forget this judge. Her name was Katherine Ann Stoltz, and today she reminds me of Judge Judy because she was just like very like just intense, like Judge Judy. And and so so and I I had to ask like three different times because I was just like perplexed, like 50? I have to do 50 years? And she was like, Yeah. And then it was like common, like just another day at the office, right? And just the detachment that she had, that the system had, that my DAs had was like everyday occurrence, like no big deal. And then and in my mind, I'm thinking, like, damn, I'm doing I'm gonna have to do 50 fucking years.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

How do the jury, the jury, did they seem emotional? Yeah, one of them did. Yeah, one of them did. How could you tell?

SPEAKER_02 32:46

She was crying. Oh, fuck. Yeah, yeah, she was crying, and and so so what it is, I was in a joint trial, and so uh my Cody fan, and he got found guilty instantly, like like within 10 minutes, he was guilty. They deliberated for me for five days. So every day I was going back for five days, and they deliberated him on the same day. So every day I would go back, and and I used to had that little installation of hope, like, okay, this might be the day. Because they say the longer that they take, the more uh you're gonna have action, right? I mean like a hung jury or something, or I was hoping for that. I mean, my criminal mind, I was because I was what I was gonna do, I was gonna get out and and and and be a continue be a criminal. Yeah, you can do it all over again. I was, bro. I mean, I already knew it by the way. 100%, bro. I'm gonna go right back to the neighborhood. I'm gonna, yeah, I was I was then I'm gonna end up killing somebody, I'm gonna end up getting killed. I was gonna jump right into it. I mean, I wasn't I wasn't going to treatment, I wasn't doing no self-help. My self-help was with the guys and using drugs. So yeah, I mean, I I'm I was where I I was where I was at for 25 years because I needed to be there. And uh, I mean, the CDCR did a lot for me, bro. They educated me, so I mean, I was right there where I needed to be. Where'd you go to reception at? I went in uh North Kern.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

How was that? Um it was How was that your first experience in the big house?

SPEAKER_02 34:02

Um it it was uh it wasn't too bad. Yeah, um I remember just uh being out there in the yard with jap flaps and boxers on and uh playing basketball and hanging out with the guys and and and and trying to figure out where we're gonna go and and just trying to find my place in on the yard, trying to find my place in the organization and the structure. So I mean I went to the yard every chance I got and and and just try to get to know anybody everybody I could just to At that point in time were you trying to like just survive or were you trying to function politically or you didn't have that mindset? Well, I had a mindset of survival and and I knew very early a at a very early age that that if you become an asset, okay, then then you're gonna be able to survive fairly well because I mean the the assets are are are are accepted and the ones that are detriments, the ones that are that are uh no counts, you you you're pretty much not gonna I mean you you're just gonna be disposable. Well we all are, right? Right. But um I learned at a very early age, if you become an asset, you'll be kept around and and and we'll be good. And I instantly became an asset by being able to provide drugs and and always having drugs and and and I was cool. I was for like the first fifth fifteen years. For the first 15 years.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

It worked, yeah. Would you agree with me? Because you said if you become an asset, you're you're gonna be worthy, right? You're gonna be you're gonna be all right. But would don't you think that it's a double-edged sword now? Like if you play the game, you're playing the game. Oh yeah. And now you're in the game. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And you can lose in the game.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Yeah. And ultimately I lost, right? And and and it's it's yeah, it's the game because I mean, now now you're you're dealing with people's money, you're dealing with with people's drugs, and and I mean, it's not gonna last forever. And I mean, the mindset I had that it was, and and that mindset I had is like this is my life forever, so I'm gonna continue to do this forever.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Oh, because you had that lifer mentality. This is what I want to get. This I was waiting for this interview, bro. I I've interviewed a lot of former lifers, right? I need you specifically to explain to the crowd what being a lifer back in that day meant in your brain. Like you weren't fucking going home. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Um being a lifer um as a especially as a as a Southern gang member, that was just what it was. You're you're gonna spend the rest of your life in prison. And I went to prison with that mentality that this is the rest of my life. Like, I mean, when she told me I'm gonna have to do 50 years, in my mind, I was like, I'm not doing 50 years. I'm gonna end up dying in here, whether it's OD or whether it's stabbing to somebody or get shot. I'm not, I'm not gonna do 50 years in prison. And that was something that I kind of like I kind of preached to myself, like I'm not gonna do 50 years in prison. I'll do 25, but I won't do 50. And that was something that I told myself, and and I was gonna live by it because it was it was just that mentality, like, like I was never getting out. So, like, what what what what am I doing? Just it was whole it was hopeless, bro. It really was. It was very hopeless.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Was there a warrior ethos behind it? Like, oh, I want to fucking go out a warrior. Uh I want to go out and battle. Initially, it did. It was that.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Yeah, initially, during that that yeah, initially it did start like that way. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, bro. And uh, and and so I was willing to die for that cause, right? I mean, I got a life sentence for the cause. I definitely was willing to kill for that cause. I definitely was gonna die for it. However, perspective starting to change once I start seeing reality and I s I start seeing that warrior mentality, like warrior for what, right? When you open up and you say, Welcome warriors, those are the real warriors, right? Warriors for what? I'm in prison, like what the hell am I doing? Like a warrior for nothing, bro. So yeah, perspective started to change, bro.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

And and so 2000, after Kern, after North Kern, where did you touch down? Like, what was one of the first prisons you touched down?

SPEAKER_02 37:54

I went to Satiff, to C Yard?

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Yeah, I I'm pretty sure it was Wilder.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

It was a 180, yeah. Yeah, it was it was it was a violent, it was a violent place, bro. It was uh 180 C Yard uh shoe kick out. I mean, it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

What was the dynamics? Was it violent because there was a power uh were people trying to establish themselves? Was it a power? Was it just fucking race? What was it?

SPEAKER_02 38:18

No, it was already established. Fortunately, when I got there, the yard was established already. However, I was there for five years. During that time, there was a power struggle. There is there was and and when I say violent, when there was no, I had never seen anybody get beat up there. I've only seen people get stabbed. So so when I when when I say violent, yeah, so you can think of of a violent, you can think of somebody getting beat up. No, it was you were getting stabbed, then you were getting shot because there was two people.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

I don't mean to be laughing, but that's the reality, bro.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

Yeah, that's exactly what it is, bro. So so while I was there, uh two inmates were killed by cops, right, for shooting them. And then um, and I think it was like two or three inmates killed with weapons by other inmates. And this is from 2004 to I left in two thousand three and I left in 2008. So from 2003 to 2008, bro, that shit was Level 4 GP 180?

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Yeah. Oh God, dude. Yeah. Oh God, bro. Yeah, I learned a lot there, bro. I I I learned I learned a lot about myself. Within your 25 years of incarceration, did you hit all levels?

SPEAKER_02 39:25

Three, no, four, three, two, where did you No? I went, I I stayed in uh level four for uh about 23 years. Okay. And then my le 10 months right before I went to board, I went to Avanall, and I I went to board from Avanaugh, got pro from Avanall.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

But it but it's safe to say, right? Because I also like to give uh the the crowd, especially because we have a lot of viewers that are not from California, and I think they by now they understand that California moves different, especially California prisons. Could you explain like level four yards? Because you're like, yeah, bro, there was no fist at all.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, well, California prisons, it's now it's a little different, but it's just it's uh separated. Oh yeah, it's separated from four different levels, and then they have a like a fire camp. However, I was never gonna see that. And then level four and level three was was probably the most violent. Uh level four, where I was at, was a 180. And the reason why they call it a 180 because of the way it's designed, it's designed as a as a half of a 360, right? Uh of the the triangle. So it's a 180 the way it's designed. Each doors are locked and closed, and there's sections. There's like um, I think 12 cells in the bottom, 12 cells on the top. And each section has 12 cells in the bottom, 12 cells in the top. And it's just constant lockdown. We're never leaving anywhere. We're in our cells all day, especially if we are on lockdown. And every time we leave, we got a walk through metal detector. When we come back, we got a walk through metal detector. We go out and and and just a pair of boxers and uh and shoes and whatever we're taking out there with us, we can have on our hands, and everything gets searched. And when we come back, everything gets searched. And um, yeah, it's just the design and then the population. Uh, everybody at that point when I was there were all lifers. It was it was you were you were there for some serious violence, or you were there just because you just got kicked out the shoe and you're a shoe kick out pending transfer, or you're a shoe kick out, and that's where you're gonna be housed. So it was a considered shoe kick out yard.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

When individuals got kicked out of the shoe, did they just did it like was there a pattern it would get crazy after like they got kicked out, or it would be like it wasn't a big deal. I mean, what do you mean? Thinking about like and not to get too political, but I know back in the day, if you're getting kicked out of the shoe, you're coming with a message.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. You're coming with either a kite, a verbal. I mean, verbals only take you so far unless you're gonna really like implement that verbal and and and take action on that verbal. But a lot of the time, yeah, you are coming with the message. And when you're going to prison to prison, you're pretty much going with the message. Um, so that's that's the way that our system works. We're going to a prison, someone's gonna find out where you're going. They're gonna ask you hey, we we need this over there, and and we need you to contact this individual over here.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

So you know you're you're gonna tell that was at that time frame because now you can just fucking FaceTime from the cell. That's true. Uh yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm talking that's why I want to give the the mindset to capture history of that time frame. Now, these are not political questions, but what I wanted you to dive in was like metal. What is the mindset behind using steel weapons as opposed to just punching people, kicking them around?

SPEAKER_02 42:43

You're trying to you're you're trying to kill them, you're trying to send a message. Um, and I mean, there will be times where plastic was used because there was no metal that was able we were able to get. And uh then you had some very ingenious people able to cut up lockers and and bunks, bro. Those are nasty weapons, dude. And and and I and I seen that in and and I mean, not not to uh use the race or anything, but there used to be some whites that used to not know how to cut the bunks up. Facts. And so we we were easily grab gravitating and grabbing them in, like, you're gonna cut these bunks up for us. Like, we need some of those. And I don't know how they were doing it, but I do now, I do know now, right? But at that time, I was like, how the hell they it was just like like it just seemed unreal. Like, how's there a piece of metal this big from the bunk? And then yeah, they were using that shit.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

You're 21, you're 22, you're probably 23 years old, you're a north current level four GP 180 killers. Earlier we were having breakfast, and you said you didn't feel yourself while you were doing prison because that you kind of had to put on a persona. Looking back in hindsight, was that the time frame you were putting on a persona? Absolutely, bro. What was the persona?

SPEAKER_02 43:51

Well, to be tough. Well, my my persona was to be tough, right? And and so personally, I know you probably can't tell now, but I'm engaging, I'm social, I'm Always talking to people. I'm always feeling people out. And a lot of it's because of me. In order for me to feel comfortable around somebody, I want to talk to them just so I can feel them out. And so a lot of it is for my protection. I'm talking to people because it's it's a way for me to emotional. Yeah, it's me for me to feel safe around them. However, in in a prison setting, you can't just go around and just talk to people because the fuck is this fucks up with this dude, right? And then you easily become a target, or someone's probably thinking you're too nosy, and then you that's that's the last thing you want to become is someone that's nosy because now you're either becoming a detriment and no one's gonna want to tell you anything, or no one's gonna want to pull you in because there's gonna be something wrong. So I felt like I had to put up a facade. Like I didn't give a fuck, right? I don't give a fuck about what what what I didn't just I just didn't care, bro. I didn't care about about, I mean, if if I was gonna be asked to do something, I was gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Um so Were you gonna be asked, were you gonna do it because you w A, wanted to do it, B, had no damn choice, or C, what was the right reasoning? Or because you were a lifer and you were not getting out.

Arrest, Trial, And A 50-To-Life Sentence

SPEAKER_02 45:02

It was a little bit of it was a little bit of all of them. And so initially, when I went to prison, I knew that that you gotta put in work, right? That there's there's gonna be two ways. There's gonna be two people that they're keeping on the yard, right? People that are assets or people that are detriment, right? So if you're not an asset for them, then then you're gonna be first one on the list to go put in some work, bro. And we're not talking about beating someone up, we're talking about stabbing somebody. We're talking about getting another life crime, right? And essentially that's what it ends up being. You get another life crime, right? So so I learned very early that you know what, I want to become an asset because not only that, but you kind of, I felt like you get more politically power, you get more political power with with bringing in money, bringing in drugs, right? Because you can stab somebody, and I mean what what what yeah, you're gonna be known as all this dude's down, this dude's crazy, but okay, and then that's gonna go down. There are dime a dozen crazy. That that's that's gonna go. And I mean, where where are you at after that, right? You're just gonna be up next to stab the next person. Yeah, right. So, so me and I learned that those people are the first ones back in the shoe, those are the ones you you hit you hit the yarn, they're the first ones gone. You learned that from observing? Yeah, I learned that from observing. And uh, and I noticed it because I I was uh I've learned that from just early on in in gang culture and in the county that they're not gonna want to get rid of the person that's bringing in drugs and supplying. So I learned uh, you know what, I'm gonna start bringing in drugs and I'm gonna start supplying and and they're gonna keep me around, and then that attention that I would get, right? I I I enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

This was uh around the time of the three strike laws as well. And I remember, like, uh if if two if if do you guys remember remember having these conversations or thinking about this? Like, hey, my homie has two strikes, he has a piece, like he's about to get struck out. Were you having those conversations? Yeah. Were you thinking about that?

SPEAKER_02 46:55

Yeah, yeah. There there was there were those conversations we're had, right? And and at that time, I remember there was a there was a chance for the three strikes to get overturned, and Arnold Schwarzenegger kind of did something and he didn't. And I remember at that time there was there was homies who who weren't trying to get in trouble with anything. So me being young, me being a new lifer, I was taking responsibility for stuff. Okay, like I was holding on to weapons. So yeah, it definitely because it was an act of like, you know what, yeah, that maybe this homie will get a chance to go home. Okay, he won't get struck in out, or even if it's somebody that's going home in a couple years, and I got life, and we both get caught with something, I'm gonna take the rap for it because I'm a lifer. They're not gonna press charges on me. Right. And they never did. So and and they would instantly press charges on him because he's going home soon. Right. So yeah, I would take that.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

In your 25 years, did you ever see people in prison that were not in a life uh sentence, but that caught life?

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Oh yeah. You did, dude? Absolutely, bro. Yeah, absolutely. One of my one of my uh one of my cohort guys, right? Um, I went to the, I don't know if you're familiar, but I went to the OMCP program to educate myself as a substance abuse counselor. Well, one of my cohort guys that I was in the court with, that happened to him. And the funny thing about it, that happened to him in Saddiff when we were in Corcoran together. And that's exactly what happened. He had three years left. No. Yeah. He had three years left. They were stabbing somebody. The sh the cop shot and killed the the inmate. They charge him with a money. And they charged him with it, and he got life for it and did like 27 years for that shit, opposed to three.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

That is fucking horrible, bro. To me, that's almost more horrible than just catching a life sentence from the street. Do you see it that way, also?

SPEAKER_02 48:35

Um, yeah, I mean, it it is. Like, I I can see it if if me being in denial, I can see that because it's like, man, how in the fuck am I getting life? I'm not I didn't pull the trigger. The fucking cop killed him. Like, how in the fuck am I getting life for it?

SPEAKER_01 48:47

But in that aspect, I can see that being horrible. Well, I'm not saying like they're just that particular incident. I'm talking about like people that are go on a stabbing mission and then end up catching fucking life.

SPEAKER_02 48:55

Absolutely, bro. That's horrible. That that's a dime a dozen, bro. That happens so much. I mean, that's one of the instances I can like I can talk about that I personally know about. But yeah, that happens all the time, bro. Like they'll they'll come in with a couple years, and and you know, there's a there's that need of acceptance, there's that need to prove ourselves, and you know, what are we gonna do? We're gonna pick up a knife and and and prove ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

Were you were were you ever involved in any major race riots?

SPEAKER_02 49:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:21

You were? Mm-hmm. What's a mindset or mentality when everybody is just beating the fucking stabbing the shit out of each other and beating each other up?

SPEAKER_02 49:31

Initially, it's kind of just uh I've been in two, two, two uh um race riots where there was weapons used and and uh uh unfortunately it was Mexicans against the blacks. And and and the thing about that is it I didn't grow up racist. I grew up loving all everybody, right? However, being in prison, I kind of I kind of felt like I was forced to be racist and forced to separate, right? And and it did happen that way. So when I see homeboys jumping on the blacks, I mean, unfortunately, I'm uh I I followed suit. But yeah, that's that that's it, it was it's crazy, bro. It's almost like real, I mean, there there's nothing compared to real life war that you experience, but it actually feels like that because there's like hand-to-hand combat kind of it is because there there was bombs falling, right? Tear gas, uh, block gun, and and and it it really does feel like and they're and and and and it energized me when I see all that. It it motivated me to keep going. Adrenaline. Adrenaline, yeah. It did. And and so I mean, I didn't stop until I ended up getting knocked out and uh by what? By a black dude. He ended up uh co-cocking me, knocking me out. Came from the side or behind or yeah, from the side, and and it's crazy because I I seen a video of this when I got my 115 hearing. The lieutenant let me see the video of of what happened. Were you on somebody else? Yeah, no, me and somebody else were fighting. Okay, and he just came and he just he hit me from the side, and next thing I know, I woke up in a stretcher and I didn't even know what happened, right? And I'm like, oh, but I'm in the I'm in go, I'm going to the um ASU. So 90 days later, I go to my hearing and and and I know I got knocked out because someone's like they told me, and you kind of know, right? So but I didn't know like the exact how it happened. So when I go to my 115 hearing, I'm like, yeah, I want to see the video, right? Because we have a right to view footage evidence. And I seen it, right? And and it was like reliving it, bro. And and and it's like like after that, this was like in 2000, this is 2011. 2011, 2012, right? Matter of fact, there was a day that uh that uh um um that one singer, she died, I forgot who it was. Um Rivera. What was what's her name? Rivera? Yeah, some um um some Spanish singer. It was the day she died, right? Because I remember um I woke up and that was kind of like the talk of the town, aside from the riot. But um I seen the video, and sure enough, this this one big old black dude just came up and just punched me from the back or from the side, and uh, and yeah, and I was out, bro. And I was out and and did he kick you in the head afterwards? You got lucky? You know what? You know what? No, no, no, I didn't, right? And no, I didn't.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

I'm saying you got lucky, bro. We could have stomped your fucking head in.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

No, it happens. And and but you but when you say that that that happened a different time. Oh, to you? Yeah, I got kicked in the head. And uh, and so yeah, it was and I I laughed and I'm thinking about yeah, that didn't happen that day, but I got stomped on my face. Fucked. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:22

During another riot?

SPEAKER_02 52:23

Yeah. Or yeah, and and it was like the same thing. I was I stumbled and I'm felling, I'm trying to get up. So and I get stomped on my face.

SPEAKER_01 52:30

So you're in the lieutenant's office, you're watching the video, what what what's happening in your brain? What are you seeing? What are you seeing?

SPEAKER_02 52:36

Well, I I I I wanted to watch it just because I wanted to see what happened, right? Um, but it was actually not healing, but it actually helped me because I was like, man, what the fuck am I doing? Like that dude could have killed me, right? As hard as he hit me, and and the way I fell, and I just I just crumbled to the floor. But but that that changed my perspective because because during that riot, I seen a lot of my homeboys who I thought were my homeboys, they took off running. And I was able to see that in that video. And a lot of homeboys were able to see that. So that created an image in my mind, like, well, these this is these dudes are bullshit. Like, yeah, so so that that helped me change my perspective because yeah, during the riot, we were able to we were able to see what happened, and even the lieutenant was like, man, where's your homeboys at?

SPEAKER_01 53:20

And the lieutenant's a dick for saying that, bro.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

So I'm looking at it and and and I'm like, man, you're right. And and I seen it, bro. Like, like once it happened, a lot of homeboys took off running, and there was a few of us that stayed, and I ended up getting knocked out. So I I kind of blame them for that, right? In my mind. And then, but yeah, there was there was like a lot of people. Was this on the yard? No, this is in the chow hall. This was inside the chow hall? Inside the chow hall um on um um I think it was A Yard. Yeah, the 270. What prison? In uh Calipat. I believe there's a video. There might be a video. No. Yeah, there's a video of it. There's a video? Yeah, you'll be able to find it somewhere, yeah. Where it just blows up? No, no. The the the the lieutenant had it when he showed it to me. I don't know how he'll get, I don't know how it's just.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

No, but I'm saying it's a chow hall. It's in the chow hall and the child hall explodes, meaning like everybody starts fighting.

SPEAKER_02 54:09

Yeah.

unknown 54:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:10

Well, it happened in the yard. It happened in the yard, and and we seen Mexican blacks fighting in the yard. So we we we that's the the first order of business. Oh, that's a different video then. Yeah, the first order of business is is is going to to um attack the whoever we see in the chow hall. It just kind of just escalates that way, right? And but when I've seen the video of everybody in the chow hall of how it happened, because the chow has cameras, and I I I was able to see how they ran out the door. Instead of being in the chow hall, they ran out the door. They can't down because that video caught showed me down. That video, yeah. So that there was video outside, and there was video of the chow, so what happened.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

But there was of an investigation all that. That was probably the first time in your life you observed cowardice. Cowardice by definition. It was, bro. It's cowardice by definition.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

It changed my perspective, and it made me believe like this ain't all what I thought it was supposed to be. Like, where the fuck are the homeboys at?

SPEAKER_01 55:05

But here's the thing, though, because I was former Green, I was a right, it's the same shit. Like it we there's COs that will run the opposite direction during a fucking riot. Or staff assault, even worse, bro. So it's just it's not isolated. Cowardice is not isolated to just anything. And it just goes to show you the different levels of caliber of individuals. Meaning it's not smart to get involved in the racial riot, right? Right, but it shows you who's who, what's what when it's fucking go time. Right. Right. So there you are, dude. Adsa watching your fucking video, dude. And then, bro, like I really need to know it changed your perspective. Did you think fuck this?

County Indoctrination And Heroin Addiction

SPEAKER_02 55:47

Fuck him. And I mean, it's it's uh, it's it's the way it happened, bro, like at that point in my life, the way it happened, and then and and then not only that, but I ended up getting out for that, right? And I committed another crime in the yard and got sent back. I was constantly and um, but but there was a that was in 2012, right? And then there was uh a book that I read, and then my wife came into my picture at that time. So once I read that, the book, and and then my wife came into my picture, and I started like and she started instilling hope in me. And I started like like seeing myself, and this was before the law changed. That was what I was about to ask you. This was before the law changed, and I started seeing myself not as as uh as as who I was who I was anymore, bro. Excellent. And and and I just didn't want that life anymore. I just couldn't get out of it. Excellent. Yeah, I couldn't get out of it. And uh, and and when I read that book uh by uh by Enriquez, and I just I I seen his story and I was like, man, this was the this was a fucking uh a big homie that actually was able to to to deflect. And I mean, like he like that was a message, bro. And and after reading that book and like everything falling in place at that time for me, and then just people having compassion and and my wife having compassion, and that was it started changing me a little bit little bit, right? I started changing perspectives, like, no, this ain't cool, like this is this is bullshit, like there's better than this.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

How does that work? You still have life, your the law has not changed. How does that work? You no longer want to function like that, right? You have now enlightened your your brain. How does that work, bro? Is it good, is it bad, or is it?

SPEAKER_02 57:34

No, well, it was a struggle, right?

SPEAKER_01 57:35

Because you're still trapped in hell.

SPEAKER_02 57:37

Yeah, I was. It was a struggle because I didn't know, like I didn't know like there was prison, right? Like we're like, where what what do I do? Where do I go? I just knew that like like I wanted to get myself right. I wanted to stop what I was doing and and and think clearly because at this time, all this thing was going on, I was high, right? I was high for 15 years.

SPEAKER_01 57:57

You said the first 15 years you were self-medicating.

SPEAKER_02 57:59

I was I was bro, and and and if I wasn't high, I was finding a way to get high, and and I was gonna get high.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

How many how much percentage of the first 15 years were you under the influence of something?

SPEAKER_02 58:09

Fuck about 80%. You serious, dude? About 80%. Yeah, hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah, about 80%, bro. I was from 2001 when I got introduced to heroin, like that was like, like, that was my gateway. Like that was my gateway to freedom, to feeling better, and everything after that, it was like, how am I gonna get more heroin?

SPEAKER_01 58:31

They say that that effect goes away after you do it the first time and then people chase the same high. Is that the truth? Um, essentially it is.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

The first time it's I mean, it was amazing the first time. I mean, it it always felt good. I mean, and and and to this day I know I gotta stay away from that shit. Cause it helps me. 100% good, right? And and and and I enjoy how it feels, but it feels too good, so I have to stay away from it. So I do, right? But yeah, it was uh That's the devil, bro. It is, bro. And and and and that, and and I wanted to stop, bro. I I wanted to stop doing that because I wanted to stop getting high because I just it wasn't bringing me pleasure no more. I wasn't getting satisfaction out of it no more. I seen a lot of bullshit going through it. I was going through a lot of bullshit with it.

SPEAKER_01 59:12

Were you seeing a lot of inmates getting caught up in wrecks as a result of dope?

SPEAKER_02 59:16

Absolutely. Absolutely. And and and I was that person, like, oh, it's not gonna happen to me. And I got caught up in a wreck, right? I was stabbed, I was victimized. You were? Yeah, I was yeah, yeah, and I was victimized. I ended up, yeah, I I got in trouble a lot, bro.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

W when you got stabbed, did you know it was gonna happen?

SPEAKER_02 59:36

Yeah. You knew it was gonna happen. Yeah, it was, yeah, because I ended up uh it was this was in uh um in Lancaster. Yeah, I was in Lancaster on B Yard. And um, so yeah, they they they told me you you you're gonna have something coming, and um, this is what it is, and and the big homie wanted I mean make an example out of me. And so that was what happened. And and they it was there the thing about it is it they weren't gonna kill me, they just wanted to put me in my place and check me, right? So they stabbed me with a weapon that wasn't gonna do much harm. And then after that, now I'm supposed to go stab somebody else to clean up the what I need what I need cleaned up. And and and in my mind, um this is big homies making these decisions, and these are people that I looked up to at a very early. I didn't know who they were, but I just know big homies. Mythical figures. They're mythical figures, they're gods, right? And then when when I get attacked because of this is what hat this is what they want, I'm like, yeah, it was just like, yeah, I I didn't want to deal with that no more.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:33

I'm gonna ask you this question. And you don't have to answer if you don't want to. But you said cleanup, right? Cleanup. Like you got in trouble, you had this coming, now you have cleanup. Is a person ever really clean up? Does a person ever really clean up or are they always just gonna owe for the rest of the time?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:49

No, you can clean up. Yeah, you can clean up. However, you're you're you're kind of gonna be on that list to always be cleaning up.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:54

I mean Well, that's what exactly what I just meant.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:56

Yeah, you can clean up and for six months, you you you you're you'll be good, right? But um, but yeah, once you But you're never gonna escape that. Yeah, once yeah, once you're like once you get hit, bro, and you're considered you won't you're not considered no good. You're just considered hit. So now, I mean, you definitely ain't gonna most likely move up on rank. You definitely ain't gonna be running any facilities or or having any positions of power once you get hit. I don't fuck, dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

I I because I respect you, right? And I don't want to fucking uh like cross any lines, but uh were you able to see like political things where dudes got hit that didn't have it coming?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:33

Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure, bro. Yeah, and and and I mean I totally didn't agree with it. I mean, I mean, who I wasn't the one to to to voice it. Right. But yeah, absolutely, bro. I mean, there was people getting hit for for dope money for 50 bucks, I mean, for for dumbass shit, right? I mean, once once they started releasing the Mexican mafia members on the yard in 2014, 2015, I mean, for me, uh it's it's double-edged because it's almost like unfair to keep someone housed and brought in solitary that long. I mean, however, when when once that started happening, and I'm nobody to make decisions, however, I started seeing a a a trend, a different type of trend, right? And and for me, I was like, once that happened and I started seeing what it was for for for myself, and I started like like like experiencing it, bro. I was like, yeah, I gotta get up out of here. This is not the business, bro. I mean, they're they're definitely not who I thought they were. Like, I mean, just I mean, not not to belittle anybody, 100% and not to disrespect anybody, but I looked at them as mythical figures and then once seen them for real life and and I mean they're but that even goes for the green side too, is that you just hear these things, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:45

Yeah, bro. Um and you know, not to be disrespectful, they still do hold that power. They hold that fucking power. Absolutely, bro. Absolutely. Um when it comes to the laws changing, dude. When AB 109 hit, you remember AB 109? Remember AB 109 when they released everybody to the freaking Yeah, to the jails, to the city jails, jails, the counties, did that give you hope? Different type of hope. Oh what law was it that gave you the hope or I got action?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:18

Yeah, um SB 260.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

That's the one that you got out on or no?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

No, I got out on SB 261. SB 260 was if you're under 18 and you got a life sentence, you're gonna be reevaluated and you're gonna you're gonna have a chance. Or if you got uh um what was it, juvenile life, or or you're gonna in instead of having 50 years to life, you're gonna end up being eligible in 25. Or if you have 25 years to life, you can go to board in 15 years. So that was the that that was kind of the hope that the life didn't mean life. And then the first When did you hear about that? Um it was in Lancaster.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

How did you hear about that?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:54

Uh well, they were having a group. We were in Yard and uh in and we I was in Bard and and I was chasing drugs. I was on the Hamble Court. Yeah, yeah, it was like in 2014, right? I was still involved in my bullshit, right? So I remember they had a meeting in Lancaster, right? And there was a lot of people that came in from um from some organization. Kairos or something. Yeah, and I had a celly at that time, and he was a young kid, right? And he had life, and he got life like at 16. And um, and I asked him, hey, what was that about? And he said, Oh, well, anybody that has life and they're under 18, we're gonna have a chance to not have life anymore, some shit, right? So I was like, Oh, okay, that sounds cool, right? I mean, I didn't really think of it after that. I was like, all right, well, cool, maybe you'll get out, right? Right? So that that kicked in and I started seeing people getting out, or at least going to board, right? But go to the board. Yeah, that was their thing, right? Right, right. I always like, damn, like my thing was like, shit, if I can go to board, I will, I'll go. But Yeah, because you had 50 years to life. Yeah, so I wasn't supposed to go to board in 50 years, right? So, so the first time I actually seen someone, a lifer get out was in 2017. And I already made that transition. Yeah, I already made that transition to stop using drugs. Right. I dropped out of the gang. Right. I didn't want to live that lifestyle no more. So I made that transition to changed my life around, right? Right. So once that happened, and the first life I ever seen was two years later in 2017. And once I seen that happen, and this dude was 32 years in prison, he got a life while in prison. What race? He was uh he was another. No, no, he was a NF. He was he he he was uh he he he was like an Asian dude, but he was NF. And um, so or ex-NF because we we were in the SNY yard. Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

So once that happened, he ended up uh um getting out. You were on the yard with him.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:39

And it everybody talks, and you know the dude got bored, and then he came back and he said, Hey, I got fucking granted?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:44

Yeah, yeah. Well, I used to go to group with him because we used to have a group, um well, a youth defender group, and he was in the youth defender group because he was a youth defender when he got arrested.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:53

So I was What did that do to your brain when when he said uh I got it gave me hope, bro.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:58

It gave me hope. And and and I had a little Hope and still at that time, and there was my relationship. I wanted it to work out, and I know it wasn't gonna work out if I was using, so that already seized. I had stopped out already. And but now that now I have hope to get out. Now I hope now I have hope to to to to be paroled one day because now I seen what happened to him. And and this guy was only like 17. He wasn't even the um or no, maybe he was, I don't forget what it was, but um, but he he was he was uh um incarcerated for over 32 years, and I'm at that point, and then I know he killed somebody in prison. So I'm like, man, if this guy can get out, and I used to hear his story, and he was a former NF gang member, and I used to think, like, man, I was a nobody. So look, if if if this guy is a former NF and and he kills somebody and he's getting out, I was a fucking nobody, a fucking wannabe. And man, why can't I get out? So I started working towards it, bro. I yeah, I started like like just like really applying myself and and and getting into college and and and really applying myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:00

You started working towards it, uh CDCR, California Department of Correction and Rehabilitation. They were offering programs, but when you say you were working towards it, were you taking advantage of programs they were offering? School, what were you working on? Uh self-help? What were you doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:14

Yeah, I was doing every self-help group that they offered, and and they offered a lot, bro, at that time. They really did. And they offered like every any group we could think of, a youth affinity group, um, victim impact. They they offered pretty much anything that was kind of curtailed to your case. And I had a gang-related case with with drinking and drugs.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

Did they give you a gang enhancement when they charged you?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

Convicted you?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:36

Yeah, I got a and the gun enhancement? Yeah, yeah, I got a 250 life for the murder and 25 of life for the gun enhancement. And the gang enhancement ran together with the gun enhancement because they couldn't um do them to g um separately or whatever it was. Some technicality that prevented me from getting another life sentence, right? And then the attempted murders, they ran those concurrent with the murder.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:57

Well, you're lucky that they ran those fucking concurrent with a murder. Yeah. Because they imagine if they would have hit you with two life sentences.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:03

Yeah, uh, well, uh uh I probably would have still had opportunity to if I would have got life without, I would have been fucked. Because those are the ones that are that are fucked. They're not getting no problem.

Level Four Yards And The Politics Of Violence

SPEAKER_01 1:08:12

Some of them have gotten action, some of them gone home. Yeah some of them. Oh. But they go from L WAP. I mean, look at the Menendez brothers. They went from L WAP, resentenced, to 25 to life. Okay. Then you go out. Okay, yeah, that seems like an upper heel to to to to conquer. So but even even you being a lifer, bro, and that's what I want to portray to the crowd is like, dude. That's a one in a million chance. I understand that. Like, do you understand that that's a one in a million chance? A lifer from California going home. Oh, yeah, it's it's rare. It's extremely rare, bro. It's almost damn near impossible. Like from what we've seen during that time frame, it should not have happened, but it did happen, right? It's a miracle.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:53

That's why every day I wake up grateful, bro. Every day, because it's almost like I'm not even supposed to be out here. I am. I mean, I'm taking advantage of it in a good way, not in an exploitative way. Correct. But I'm really just I'm really just like embracing it and just loving every day of my life because this this this shouldn't happen, but it is, so I'm embracing it, bro.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:15

Yeah, bro, it's a blessing. What is it like to wake up in a California prison cell, bro? What is it like? Yeah, it sucks, bro.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:26

Yeah, it's it sucks. I mean, if if you want to talk about like the appliances that we have, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:30

I want to talk, I want to know. Uh uh, give me a day in the life of waking up in a fucking cell, bro, from the time to your celly, cleaning, yeah, coffee. What does it look like?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:42

I mean, it it becomes repetitive. It it becomes repetitive and routine. And and for me, I mean, I I I was always a uh uh a celly who who who who wanted to always interact with my celly. So in the morning, I'm always engaging. Like if we're gonna do something, it's kind of how early? Um at that point, depending on what I was doing. I had jobs where I was having to get up at 4 30 in the morning. Um right before um I left prison, I was getting up at 6 to be prepared by 7. So it all depends, bro. But um, yeah, there is times I was getting up really early, depending on what my schedule was, but it can be really repetitive. And it can, I mean, consistency is it's always the same thing. It's it's you're doing the same thing, so you're kind of prepared for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:25

What is that feeling at nighttime, bro? 2100 hours, 9 p.m. The cop goes around, does his last count, it's dark in the cell. Sometimes you guys got the TV on, you're kicking it. Sometimes people are writing a letter. What is that feeling like at that time? It's lonely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:46

It was really lonely. Um, I mean, depending on what I had going on at that time, I I tried staying busy, but but it was really lonely. I mean, I had people in my life, I have people in my life that that's still to this day, but yeah, being in the cell, I mean, no matter how much you got going on, how many people are in your life, bro, it's lonely as fuck, bro. Like, being in the cell is not the business, bro. I'm like, I look at it now, bro, and I'm like, man, I'm so grateful. Like, like the cell sucks, bro. Like, just being in prison, like that shit just fuck is not the business.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:16

It sucks. Now that's a regular prison cell in a regular housing unit. What about in the shoe? Because when you go to the shoe, that's not really your cell, bro. You're just there temporarily and it sucks.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:24

Yeah, it's it it sucks, bro. Everything's fucking concrete. I mean, yeah, everything's concrete. You'll you'll have the the the thing in front of your toilet that you can probably maybe look at yourself a little bit because it unless you buff it. I mean, depending on on if you're ASU, you you you have a bunky, you're kind of just waiting for him to come down, or you're maybe looking at your bunky because you guys are side by side. I mean, the toilets are constantly flushing, loud as fuck. You're always hearing voices, echoes of people's voices, keys jangling.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:55

Yeah, it's just cold, the dark, and and and and I mean, I just What about the food, man? Because it's not you're getting fed three times a day. Is that enough? Is that sufficient or insufficient? I mean, when when when you ask me, I say yeah. I mean, so they're feeding. No, realistically, bro. Not when I'm asking you, but you're gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:11

So so yeah, I mean, you're you're able to survive off it. I mean, you're not gonna die, right? Yeah, you're s you survive off the food. I mean, however, you're you're hungry as fuck, bro. And and and you're able to go$40 a canteen. I mean, that that ain't shit, bro. And so, yeah, realistically, the the food's gonna keep you alive, and and that's probably all it's gonna do. I mean, working out, it's you're you're you're gonna work out and and be hungry for food. You mean so yeah, you feel that shit, bro.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:38

How important was working out in prison during that early time frame that we were talking about?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:42

Oh, it was very important. Like my whole life was was working out. Like I was I would work out. I was working out every day, bro. I I worked out for eight months straight one day without a day off because it was like I'm I'm like, yeah, I'm not gonna be victimized. I'm gonna I'm gonna stay in shape and and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:59

Did you get did you get blasted in there tattooed?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:01

Yeah, I did.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:02

All over? Yeah was that that like during like the lockdowns or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:07

I had a I had a Sally who who ended doing all my tattoos uh and like in a six-month lockdown. We were on lockdown for like 18 months, but like in six months he completed and uh oh yeah, it was in Corcoran. Yeah, in Corcoran, and and and at that point when I got there, we were on lockdown. And then we something happened. We got off for a little while. And back then, that's when we were going lockdown for at least 16 months at a time. 100%, bro. Yeah, I was there for five years. I probably, I mean, probably seen the yard, maybe a couple months out of those five years, but yeah, we do long ass lockdowns there.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:42

So, you knowing what you know now, I mean, you're an experienced former convict, right? Uh, what works and what doesn't work? Does long period lockdowns work for the California Department of Corrections?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:55

Uh man, you know what? That's uh that's interesting because I'll be honest with you, there's some motherfuckers they deserve to be locked up because there's some crazy motherfuckers that need to be locked up, right? However, I mean, if if if if someone is gonna put the effort in and and and and maybe wanting to to improve, then lockdowns are not gonna work, bro, because you're not gonna have no room to improve. I mean, you you want to improve, but what where are you gonna improve to? There's there's there's a law library you can go to once every Tuesday, but like aside from that, I mean, you're right back into the sale. There's no there there's no improvement unless you get books mailed into you. But for me, improvement comes with interacting with other people in in in that sense. So lockdowns, long lockdowns, it's not conducive to rehabilitation.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:40

No, it's not. What about group punishment? Mexicans, blacks, whites, others. Is group punishment effective or not effective?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:51

I mean, for for the time being, it's effective because I mean it's it's everyone has a group mentality, right? So depending on where you're at in the system, if if I mean if if if they see a a Mexican getting off, they're gonna get off too. They're gonna get off, regardless. So so that that's the group mentality, that's the herd mentality, right? So depending on where you're at, I mean, it's effective because I mean the next thing that happens, that they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna attack somebody, right? I mean it's yeah, it's it's it's rare that someone don't retaliate, right? Especially if something something serious happens. I mean, to for me, it's all it's all depending on where you're at, group punishment. Um for me, I never personally I didn't like it because I'm thinking, but but you know, but if you if I'll be honest with you, if if if um during that time, I'm gonna respond as the group with the herd, right? And and so we needed to be on lockdown.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:43

Earlier you said you would eventually go to the SNY side. Yes. But that's what you said. The CDCR began to integrate, meaning mixing GP general population and sensitive need yards inmates in around 2019, 2020, definitely 2021. What's your stance on that?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:02

Um, yeah, that that's that's definitely not conducive to rehabilitation. When when I was I was in the SNY yard from for for a few years, and they would bring GPs there, right? And I mean, they wouldn't stay long. The ones that weren't gonna stay, they weren't gonna stay. They'd get off right there in front of the program office, or if they were if they really wanted to hurt somebody, they'd wait a little while.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:23

But could that have been you? If you've been in the wrong place, if you had been standing in front of the program office, could that have been you that the GP got off on?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:29

Definitely. Yeah, there was plenty of times where it could have been me. And just and that that's kind of where my mentality's at. Like I'm gonna work out hard, I'm gonna look intimidating, I'm gonna put on, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna gain some muscle because a lot of the times they kind of they I put myself in that position. I mean, a lot of the times they're gonna try to pick on someone that maybe that they really is not gonna put up a good fight, right? So I mean my whole thing was I mean staying in shape because I mean you never know. But yeah, there plenty of times it could have been me, and and unfortunately it never was. And however, yeah, there is plenty of times where they went another direction and and not towards me.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:06

But you did observe GP's assault SNY as a result of the integration.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:12

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:14

Yeah. The the public has a hard time understanding why inmates should be separated instead of mixed. Do you have an answer for that? Why should SNYs be separated from GPs?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:31

Um, I mean, if if if if you want to lean more into inclusion, right, to just include all the inmates, I mean, that's not gonna be a good recipe for for the CDCR, right? For for staff, definitely. I mean, I I can see why they would probably want inclusion instead of exclusion. However, for CDCR, there's there's a there's a culture there, bro. And and and it's gonna take a whole lot more than than what what what some city legislature or some state legislation person wants than to make it work. And I mean, look how many years it's it's been to where we're at now. I mean, I would think it taken that amount of years for it to get where they want it. I mean, and if they're gonna start now, I mean, if that's what they want, I mean, they have to start somewhere. So, but yeah, for them to to to want to include, like for all the inmates to get along, I mean, I'll be honest with you, that ain't gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. Yeah, it's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:24

It's just not gonna happen, dude. I don't know why people have a hard time grasping that concept, dude. It's prison has a different culture, man. It just rocks different.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:32

Yeah, it does, yeah, it does. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:36

What advice do you have for the current lifers that are still behind them walls, dude? And in reality, they still have action. Up until now, right? Because I've talked to certain people, including uh Renee Enriquez, and he's like, dude, we feel that that window's gonna close. We feel like that gate's not always gonna be open for these dudes. What advice do you have for them if they're struggling or they don't know how to parole? How would you walk them through that path?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:01

Yeah, I mean, they they got they gotta do some major reflection on themselves because someone that that's gonna make it and that's gonna do that process, you you you have to you have first of all, you have to remain sober, right? You have to find uh who you are, and and but yeah, you gotta work, bro. You got you gotta put the work in. And and what I mean by that is is you gotta discover who you are, right? And and discovering who you are, and just uh man, educate yourself. You gotta, I mean, well for me, that's how that's what worked for me, bro. I I I surrounded myself with people that that were sober. I surrounded myself with people that that wanted to go home. I surrounded, I no longer surrounded myself with people who were gonna keep me in prison. And and and it's all about it's all about detaching, bro, from your old lifestyle. I mean, it it's it's I mean it's it's it it works, it it happens, right? Where where someone can still be in the lifestyle and still find a parole date. Correct. I've seen that too. And I mean, I think that's more rare, right? Right. However, I mean that that if that's their thing, then then that's what's gonna happen, then maybe it'll work from however for me, someone that that really wants it, bro, they they have to start really reflecting on on what they want and and work towards it, bro. And for me, I mean I would have never been able to go to board and and still be claiming a gang and still be a part of a gang. It wouldn't have just worked, huh? Hell no, it wouldn't, bro, because because with that, that there where's the change, where's the accountability? I'm still trying to pr to portray I'm a gang member, I'm gonna get out and and still do gang stuff. So it's it's just all detaching, bro, detaching from that old lifestyle and adopting a whole new perspective and whole new value system.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:42

Is a gang member is a gang member an identity?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:46

Yeah, yeah, it it's I mean a lot of it's culture too, right? What you grew up with. But yeah, it was my my identity, and and it was an identity I I adopted. I mean, I didn't grow up to be a gang member. I wasn't supposed to be a gang member. It was something that I adopted because of what I seen. But yeah, you you adopt it for protection for whatever reasons. I adopted it for that and for the persona for for what what it what I perceived it to be. But yeah, definitely you can adopt a gang member um mentality.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:17

Had you continued using heroin, yeah, you would have uh dove into self-help. Do you think it would have been effective or not effective?

Riots, A Knockout, And Cracks In Belief

SPEAKER_02 1:21:25

No. Why? No, it would have never worked. And and it would just be me going through the motions. And so there there's no true internalization if you're using, right? And what I mean by that is is internalizing triggers, coping skills, I mean internalizing um just where we come from, right? We're internalizing what why was I so shameful when I was a kid, internalizing the shame I grew up with. And and if I'm you if using getting high, I'm not internalizing any of that because using and getting high is gonna be number one. I'm not really caring about any of that other shit. But yeah, there's for me, I you you can't do both. You can't use drugs and seek self-help at the same time. No, that just does not that just does not work.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:09

It conflicts, it's like an oxymoron.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:11

Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's that's I mean, it's there there's there's no internalization there, bro. I mean, maybe it might work for now, but you're gonna get out and come right back.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:20

You said you needed to spend 25 years behind bars to grow. Yeah. Or that it that right, that's what the realization it took for you to be the man that you are right now. How do you feel as far as like, all right, you were charged with this crime, you were convicted, you did your time. Do you feel like you've paid your debt to society?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:42

I have. I do feel that. Um, and you know what, there a little a little of me still feels like like you know what, prison was the place for me because I mean someone did die and and I feel remorseful for it. However, 25 years in prison for it, I mean, I went through the whole board process, I went through the whole psych evaluation and and and I was totally open book with them. And I felt like if I can be totally open with them and whatever decision they make, I'm gonna accept it. Right. If they would have if they would have told me, you know, if you're gonna spend another five more years in prison, I would have took it and I would have accepted it. However, for me, I did a lot of work. I mean, I did a lot of a lot of uh self-help, self-reflection. And for me, it's it's now my purpose is guiding the next person and whether it's supporting them, um, guiding them, educating them, and to find their their their place in this world, right? To find their sobriety. And that's what I do now is is I guide and and and I try to help people find sobriety because for me, sobriety was everything. And with sobriety came criminal um because mine was different. Some people you do crime first, and then they start doing drugs. Me, it's like everything at a very early age. I started I started doing some substance or another, and I noticed that substances drove my behavior. So if I can help somebody stop using drugs or at least identify why they use drugs, and and that's my debt to society, is continue to pay it forward by continuing being of service. The living amends. Living amends, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:21

Well, I was telling you earlier, dude, that I'm very glad and grateful that you guys, and I say you guys, man, time the guys that did your time have the opportunity to tell your story, bro. Because I was telling you, like in the past, it seemed like people shunned felons. Like, oh, you apply for a job, oh nah, you work, you work, you are a felon, I don't need you here, right? You're gonna steal shit. Have you feel that you've been uh you've received that type of feedback since you've been out by society? Maybe that's what some inmates fear. Fuck, I fear going out to the real world and seeing how people treat me. How has your uh experience been?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:58

Oh man, you know, my experience has been very welcoming, man. It's cool, huh? It has, bro. I mean, I mean, I don't I don't think, I mean, you probably couldn't tell I was in prison just by looking at you. I could not, dude, not at all, bro. So, I mean, I I I work in the in the addiction field, and and and I don't think any of them know I was in prison just by looking at me, and and that's not something I lead with, right? And so, I mean, they've been very welcoming, the the my support network, my support community, and and so that that's who I rely on. So, as far as like employment, employment's been great, bro. Like, like they're they're non-judgmental. Um, what whether they know I'm in prison or not, I mean they do, right? Because they they ask that question and I tell them, yeah, I have been in prison.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:40

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:41

But yeah, so that's not something that I'm gonna shy away from. However, I don't feel like they treat me any different. I feel like they treat me with the with the same respect as someone with a a master's degree will be treated. Correct. They're very welcoming and and accepting of me, and and and for me that's important, and and something that I still strive with with being accepted today, right? And being accepted by my sober community and and my employment and job, for me that's important, bro. And and I'm I'm I'm taking that and running with it, bro.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:09

It just sounds like you've been fucking thriving, bro, and I'm happy for you, man. I can see the happiness, I can feel the happiness in you. Like, what kind of stuff have you been doing since you've been out? Like, like trying different food, seeing different places. What have you been doing, dude? Um, I I really not I really haven't been trying different foods.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:26

You haven't? No, I mean I I tell my wife, like, I'm not really I just eat to survive. I'm not even really into food like that. I just eat just so I so I so I can survive and I can. Have you had enchiladas?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:37

No. Oh, you're fucking up, dude.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:39

I mean, I have burritos. Chile? No.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:43

Bro, come on, man. I know if I spent 25 years in prison, I'll be starving for some good food, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:51

I mean, she usually makes me pancakes and I eat cereal. I'm very basic, bro. Yeah, I respect that, bro.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:57

I respect that, dude.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:59

Now that you mentioned that, we probably could go eat something like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:01

But I'm not really fond on it. Ceviche, like you're just not. I think it's because you trained your mind, bro, to function off of basic needs. I do, bro.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:10

And and hey, bro, and and I'm frugal as hell, bro. So like I have the basic needs, right? And and I mean not that, not, not that like like I I lack money, right? So I'm I'm almost feeling like like I have so much money, what the fuck do I do with it, right? Yeah. And and not not to sound like an ass, but I'm like, like I'm I'm working and and I have like so I don't know what to do with my money, right? So my wife puts it away and and and like I don't know what to do with it. I I really don't. And it's so yeah, I I don't really, I'm not, I mean, we went to a dodger game, that was awesome as hell. So I mean, um, that was pretty much all I did.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:46

How was that experience for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:47

Oh, it was amazing. Yeah, it was amazing. I proposed to my wife again and gave her a new ring, and and that was that was awesome, bro. So yeah, that was probably one of my highlights of of um being out was going to a dodgery. Game in San Francisco. The stadium's amazing over there. Yeah. That was cool, bro.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:05

What plans do you have for the future? Like, man, where do you see, or you do you don't project that far ahead? Oh, absolutely. You do? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:13

I think five years from here. Okay. 20, I think. Yeah. So so within the next year, we're gonna we're gonna save enough money and and uh we're gonna end up uh buying some property somewhere. I don't even know where, bro, but I'm gonna continue to work. I'm gonna I'm gonna be a director of a facility one day. I'm gonna own my own facility one day, and I'm just gonna continue to help and give it back and and and just continue to be of service. I mean, I I have plans that they're they're they're pretty basic and and uh um detailed, but yeah, so I I wanna I I I would love to be able to like live in an area where I can have plenty of animals. I love animals in the front yard, the backyard. Me and my wife are probably thinking about moving to Oklahoma or somewhere nice like that, somewhat out of the city.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:56

And um, yeah, just dude, they got tornadoes over there in Oklahoma, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:59

There's a place where they don't, though.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:01

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:01

Yeah, I don't know where it's at. I think it's Tennessee. Yeah, it might be Tennessee. That's later on down the line, though, after, yeah, but once once it's I start becoming retirement age, yeah, I'll start moving out that way.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:18

So you mentioned you're a substance abuse counselor right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:21

When you're helping these young men or these men, do you see yourself in them? Oh, absolutely. You do? Absolutely, bro.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:28

And and that's what that's what continues me to to to drive and continue me to do what I'm doing because I actually see myself in them. And and the compassion comes easy when I do that. And so for me, that's what it is, is is having that compassion because I'm I was exactly where they were at, bro. And and and they don't know that because I don't tell them like, oh, you know what? I used to do drugs. I mean, once in a while I I'll let it slip if it's gonna kind of benefit what we're doing or what we're talking about. But yeah, so I definitely see myself in them, their struggle, the struggles that they're going through now. It was like the struggle that I went through before I went to prison. So yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:07

Let's talk about that because struggles are struggles. You're sober, I'm sober, and we still experience struggles. I mean, I I experience struggles.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:14

Do you experience struggles in sobriety? I do. I do. I I I my my struggle is navigation. I have a horrible sense of direction, so that's my struggle. I'm kind of still lost.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:26

What would the 47-year-old self now tell the 21-year-old Rudy?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:32

You know what? Um I will tell him that you know what you're special and you're awesome, and you don't need drugs, you don't need gang to validate you. And so my message will be talk about what's troubling you, because that's essentially what it was, bro. I mean, I didn't talk about what was troubling me. I that's just not what I did. I I suppressed it and I acted on in violence. And my thing will be talk about it, whether it's talking to a friend, a psychiatrist, counselor, facts, and I didn't talk to nobody about my struggles and about my hidden secrets, right? Or about just stuff that I grew up with and and just the way I felt. I I didn't, bro. I just I'm gonna act, I'm gonna act out in violence and I'm gonna just kind of put a band.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:17

You think being a man and being Mexican had to do with that machismo?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:20

Oh, it did. Yeah, it it did. I I grew up at a very early time where we don't talent anybody. Me too, bro. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:28

And that's why I brought it up. Same shit. Yeah. That's what prevented me from seeking help for my post-traumatic stress disorder and alcoholism, the bullshit machismo.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:35

What do you have to say to motherfuckers that actually believe in that machismo still that prevents them from asking for help?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:41

Yeah, I mean, that that for me, that's that's a character defect, bro. That's a character defect. Um I'm not wanting to ask for help. But I get it though, because it's culturally, bro. It's culturally based. That's the culture we grew up on. Like, I mean, I I couldn't cry to my dad and and tell him um, oh, someone's bullying me or or or or oh fucking someone's fucking molesting me while you're in prison. I couldn't tell him that shit, right? So I have to suck that shit up, right? And so for me, it's it's all about talking to somebody, bro. I mean, and and it sounds as as simple as, eh, what the fuck's talking to somebody gonna do? But you gotta let someone in, bro. You you gotta let them in. And that's the only way we're gonna be able to heal or at least start the process. Right. Start the process. You gotta start the process. And how you and and I mean, uh fortunately, bro, this right here, it this provides me healing, bro. Facts. And because I'm healing every day, I'm growing, healing, I'm not totally healed. Being able to talk to you about my story, that's healing for me, bro. So I appreciate that. And I think that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:39

Well, that's healing for me, bro. Thank you, bro. 100%. Do you believe that asking for help is weak? Hey, can I open this? Handle it, bro. Drink water. You could have drink throughout this whole entire episode, bro. It's brand new, huh? Yeah, man, you do. You are basic, bro. Nah, homie. We there's three of them. Go over there. What I'm asking you right now was do you believe asking for help is a sign of weakness? Because sometimes men misinterpret that. Today it's not.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:14

I don't even think it was back then. Today, today, why well I back then, hell yeah, I thought it was a sign of weakness. Asking for help, like I would have never asked.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:22

No, no. I want you to answer in today.

From Asset To Target: Consequences Of Dope

SPEAKER_02 1:33:24

Oh, no, absolutely. No, absolutely. I have I ask for help all the time, bro. I'm at work, I'm asking about how to do something. I'm new, I'm new in the field. I mean, I I've dealt with people my whole life, so I feel like I'm comfortable dealing with people, but but my my actual work deals with a lot of stuff on the computer, it deals with documentation. So, so it deals with like a different aspect of dealing with people. However, like I can engage with people all day and feel comfortable doing it and be happy doing it, but but there's things that I don't know. And and I have no problem asking my manager for help. I have no problem asking my supervisor, how do you document this? Where do I document? Where do I I'm still trying, I still struggle with emails, attaching emails. I ask my wife all the time, how do you do this? She walks me through a bunch of shit. Even when I'm at work, it's it's it's something. Yeah, so so I'll to today I have no problem asking for help. Like, like I will, I'll I would do it, bro. I have no problem with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:22

Do you have any closing words? The floor is yours to the crowd, bro. You came all the way down here, shared your story. It's definitely gonna help people. You have anything you want to get off your chest or say? Damn, you know what, Mr.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:34

Bravo, for me, um it's it starts at the home, bro, inside the home, right? And and what I mean by that is is is is we can we can want our uh our our young our youngsters to grow up and and and want them to do good, but if if we're not showing them that compassion, and I think a lot of it starts in the home, not when they're already in prison. So, I mean, the the the population in prison, not that they're a lost cause ready because they're not, correct. But but I mean they're they're they're they're gonna have a chance.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:03

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:03

But I think that that it starts in the home at a very early age, and it's just giving that compassion, bro, that compassion to to to to our children, our people that were and for me, if if I would have grown up and and I would have had compassion or encouragement, the the the tap on the back, like you know what, you're doing good in baseball, continue playing baseball or or or continue going to school. And and it starts in the home, bro, and it's just as simple as giving someone that encouragement and that compassion at a very early age. And because once once I I got it already at 35 years old, I had already struggled fucking all the way my whole life. When my wife first started showing me compassion, like, why couldn't I get that compassion when I was younger? I wouldn't have had to deal with all this shit, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:47

Everything happens for a reason.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:48

Yeah, and I feel like me being able to, me experiencing maybe empathy, compassion, um, some encouragement at an early age, like like I I definitely would have probably did it, I wouldn't have seeked it elsewhere. And and it's and it starts. I mean, so I mean, and and then the encouragement for the ones that are struggling still behind bars, bro. I mean, it's there. Opportunities are there. I mean, I used my time wisely, I used it reading books, educating myself, exercising, building myself up, gaining a trade, uh uh, not only a trade, but uh a certification. But yeah, you it's it's it's this. Do you have faith?

SPEAKER_01 1:36:29

Faith, yeah. You practice faith. You have you believe in God? Yeah, absolutely. Because I know we didn't cover that at all during this whole entire That's what faith does, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:36:40

It it it's it that's what it is, right? Faith, I believe, uh I have a higher power, absolutely. And that that definitely guides me through. Right, absolutely, right? Yeah, we didn't cover it on. Maybe we can cover it next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:53

For sure, bro. No, but I just want to say that he's real, man. It's real. This whole thing is real, dude. It's just two people from different walks of life, but same experiences, dude. Same message, same message. Show companion uh compassion, seek help, help the next man.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:10

Yeah, just reach out, bro. Sometimes that's all it takes. Sometimes that's all it takes to make someone's day. Hey, how you doing today?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:16

Probably save somebody's fucking life by doing that, dude. Somebody could be on the ledge or having on their last moments or their wits ends, and you could just save their fucking life by telling them good morning. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:25

And and that's what I do, bro. That's that's that that's how I operate every day, just being compassionate to people, and being opening, being being open, and and just understanding and definitely listening, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:37

Damn, bro. Now I want to go get you a chile de reno or something right now, Max. Really? Come back to that big ass burrito. Good, bro. But uh, I want to thank you, dude, for coming down, bro. Appreciate that shit. We can do a part two, man. I guarantee you you're gonna help people with your story, dude. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you, bro. Thank you for believing in me, man. 100%. There you guys have it, folks. Another banger, man. These are the only stories that you're gonna hear here that's gonna help you through life, man. Make sure you share, make sure you like, and if you like what you see, make sure you hit that subscribe button. Love you, keep pushing forward.