Lez Say More Podcast
Welcome to Lez Say More: the podcast where your favorite duo of best friends—together for over 20 years—gets real about the queer community. Join us every Wednesday as we dive into everything from health and wellness, to fashion, relationships, sex - and even the occasional celebrity gossip. With our trademark humor and brutal honesty, we’re here to share stories, laughs, and insights about the (queer) modern life and all the fabulousness it has to offer. Whether you're part of the community or just curious, grab your favorite drink and join the conversation—because we promise to keep it funny, relatable, and absolutely unfiltered!
Lez Say More Podcast
Non-Birthing Mom Tales: IVF, Tantrums & Triumphs in Two-Mom Families
This is part 2 of Amanda and Jackie's IVF story, in this weeks episode we sit down with Jackie and explores the intricacies of navigating IVF and same-sex parenting, focusing on the emotional, relational, and developmental challenges experienced by both partners. Insights are shared on communication, patience, and the process of bonding with a child, alongside the importance of couples' therapy in maintaining a healthy relationship throughout the journey.
• Discussing the journey of IVF and its challenges
• Supporting a partner through hormonal changes
• The role of communication and therapy
• Bonding with children as a non-birthing parent
• Navigating parental insecurities
• Balancing intimacy and romance parenthood
• Celebrating growth and love through the challenges
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I remember our friends because we were the first of our friends, our gay friends, to be pregnant, and so when they started to get pregnant, after they were asking questions and all that stuff, and one of them was the non-birthing mom, just like me, and she's like hey, how did you deal with the? You know, I feel like I'm doing everything wrong. I'm like, oh, you are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you are, you're breathing, you are, if you're. Oh, you are, yeah, you are You're breathing you are.
Speaker 1:If you're breathing, you're in the wrong. I said you just you got to do it.
Speaker 2:You kind of got to grit your teeth through those times that it's like that, and I found myself often being like she couldn't say it loud because she said it too loud.
Speaker 3:Welcome back to the Less Say More podcast. I am Solange, I'm Ava and if you haven't watched the previous episode with Jackie's wife, we are here doing part two. This is why we're all in the same clothes, just FYI of the previous episode talking about IVF and all that stuff. So here today with me is my really good friend who I've known forever. And today, jackie, hello, jackie, jackie, applause. So, jax, hi, how are you?
Speaker 1:I'm good. Yeah, I'm good. Yeah, it was fun watching that episode with Amanda, yeah.
Speaker 3:Did you have a lot of thoughts going in the back of your mind Like, oh, I want to, no, but it did?
Speaker 1:It did bring back like flashbacks of certain, Because I have a very good ability to just block things out. Well, I mean after she explained how she was.
Speaker 2:I would hope you knew how to block things out, because that's scary. Yeah, I would hope you knew how to block things out because that's scary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that was fun.
Speaker 1:So what she was talking about, where I don't know what word to use, but I used succumbing, so like I succumbed to learning patience because I was not very good at it in the beginning but, yeah, through the hormone cycle I was forced to grow a lot as a person, as a patient person, and become a very good. I think that's actually where I became a better partner though and she's not even paying attention but where I became a better partner because then you really have to control your own triggers or things that upset you and all that kind of stuff and remember that there's someone carrying your guys' baby and there's medications involved, and sometimes she had to remind me that she was on medication because I was like what, why? And then once I remembered or she reminded me, I'd be like okay, so let's give a little context here.
Speaker 3:So you have, you are currently the baby mama, the baby mama, the the baby mama.
Speaker 3:I was trying to figure out what we were going to call you and then I was like no, she's the baby mama. She's the baby mama of two babies, of which currently uh, we saw amanda is pregnant with baby number two, yeah, which happens to be your actual uh embryo. So let's talk a little bit about your experience going through the process of being Amanda's partner through the first pregnancy, and then a little bit about your own process going through IVF and how you felt, because it sounds like you had a very different experience than she did, like you sneezed and had embryos.
Speaker 1:You had a whole podcast episode on Amanda and mine took 30 seconds.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like what the hell? Yeah, let's summarize this.
Speaker 1:Okay, so the first round experience. So, yeah, I mean she did a really good job explain, because on the outside I can only tell you how I felt and what I saw, you know. But, um, I did my very, very best to uh, you know, I was at every single appointment, except for one. That was one of the ones that she had to have a shot that hurt, which made me feel bad, but just one appointment I missed.
Speaker 1:Um, and doing all the research with her, um, it was very important to me because, especially in a same sex female relationship, I could have been the one to carry and I didn't want that's just not how my body wants to be. You know I'm not very pain tolerant and all that stuff. So there is a huge sacrifice that she has taken on and there has to be, you know, a partnership in that. There has to like I can't just ride on the side while she goes through all this stuff. Anyways, so it was, it was fun and exciting to, because I didn't have all of the feelings that she felt with things not working, the IUIs not working and all those things. I didn't have those internal feelings.
Speaker 1:So for me it was mostly exciting getting to pick the donor and looking through all that stuff and learning about everything the doctor's appointment, seeing I'm very interested in like how the process of stuff works. I'm watching it, and then there were the times where the transfer wouldn't work or this, and then I would honestly just do my best to be supportive and remove my own feelings from things. One of the hardest things about it was was keeping my own feelings in check and not letting them outweigh her needs or how she was feeling. You know, because when you're going through something and there's something doesn't work if there's sadness or hormones and there's a lot of high emotions it took a few tries conversational tries for me to really get on the page of like. Okay, I need to up my game of like how I'm responding to things, how I'm waiting and listening, and you know I think I'm going way off topic of what your question was.
Speaker 3:But no, it's okay what your question was, but no, it's okay, no, because it's honestly, I think what. What we want to know is, like, your experience as her partner, as a supporting person to somebody who's going through all of this like she. She talked about how you know she was a raging bitch and how she would have all these hormonal issues like going on right, like her hormones are raging and she felt like she couldn't maybe be the partner she would normally be to you because she wasn't obviously fully herself at that moment in time. So how did that affect you as her partner?
Speaker 1:So that that, I guess, is where the growth came in, is not immediately getting defensive if she was acting not her normal self. Yeah, you know, taking reminding myself that this is not her normal self if there were arguments or stuff like that.
Speaker 3:Did you name her other?
Speaker 1:You know what I might have. I might have For a time Her other. What would you call her Alter ego? No, I don't even know, but I guarantee that I did Just to separate it out in my brain that they were two different people. Two different people and I joke about it a lot, but the whole time wasn't like this.
Speaker 1:It's just you know, when a hormone hits or you do shots or something like this. But I remember our friends because we were the first of our friends, our gay friends, to be pregnant and so when they started to get pregnant, after they were asking questions and all that stuff, and one of them was the non-birthing mom, just like me, and she's like, hey, how did you deal with the? You know, I feel like I'm doing everything wrong. I'm like, oh, you are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you are, you're breathing, you are. If you're are You're breathing you are. If you're breathing, you're in the wrong I said you just got to do it.
Speaker 1:You kind of got to grit your teeth through those times that it's like that, and I found myself often being like what the fuck, what the fuck. And she couldn't say it loud, because if she said it too, loud and she heard, right, but it's then a different fight, right, and it's so some of the reactions when people are flooded with hormones or it's clearly out of character.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know like you can see it. We know it just by PMSing too, but it's like you know. It can be PMS content, but it is clearly so far from that person's like normal acting or character, how they treat or their logic disappears in some ways because their brain's getting flooded with a lot of stuff. So I guess I'll just say it's a growth period unless you're already a fantastic person. I mean, I have my flaws, I have my selfishness and my defensiveness and like all these things. So it kind of just shines a light on the things within me too that I need to work through to be a better partner and then actually it's a good step to then pre-parent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, because the kid's going to be all of those things right off the bat. Yeah, Because they don't know. You know their brain's not developed. So yeah, I mean it was. I did better the second time, oh. The second pregnancy than I did.
Speaker 3:the first pregnancy Is there going to be a third? No, no, no, no, no, she's done?
Speaker 2:No, she's done, not me, amanda's done, oh, Amanda's done. I was like she's done, getting beat up. Yeah Well, I haven't gotten beat up the second time. The second time Because we both I mean really Because it's your embryo.
Speaker 1:Not even that, it's just, it's the I mean the fear of what's going to happen. All the tests, all the appointments, all the stuff Work is you know, you're off work, your income's lowered. It's just, it's everything all balled up. Yeah, that is crazy, and the second time. Sure, that still happens, but you have a better handle on it. It's happened before and like you know what to expect, yeah, yeah, and like she.
Speaker 2:And therapy.
Speaker 1:Therapy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hashtag help to your therapy.
Speaker 3:Your wife emphasized therapy a lot.
Speaker 1:And it did. And I mean we were good before but we had our normal couple fights and all that stuff. But we did get into couples therapy pretty soon after she got pregnant, maybe even a little bit before, like a not a precursor, but preemptive way, you know, so that we could form lines of communication, so that when we did, one of us did get upset or tired or frustrated because your life changes, you know, and overnight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's well, especially when the baby comes, but even before that you know, it's just the minor changes, but open lines of communication so that you can kind of set aside an hour a week and you can talk about stuff and then you don't, you know, carry on with it and stuff. So I think that helps a lot too.
Speaker 3:Did you know that you always wanted to be a parent? Or like did you always want to be a mom, or was that something?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I did. I always wanted kids, but I never only child and I don't really have a lot of cousins that I grew up with, so I don't have a lot of experience with kids. I don't know how to talk before you know you talk to an eight-year-old and they stare at you. I'd feel really uncomfortable. Yeah, I remember this.
Speaker 3:For those that don't know, jackie and I used to work together at the Dirty Bird I called it the Dirty Bird at Red Robin when we were like 20 or 21 or something, I don't know but every time we had kids at the table, this one would come around the corner and be like fucking little rug, rat, rat. And I was always like, oh, jackie's not having kids, jackie's not having kids. And now she's the one with kids and I'm the one that's like, nope, no, thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's because I didn't know how to deal or talk to kids, but when it's and it doesn't even have to be your own, but when you're around, a child enough you know, and you're kind of forced to learn how to interact with them and yeah, so I always wanted to. I didn't know how to, I knew that I didn't want to carry. Um, I think some people, just like some people, grow up and they're like I can't wait to have children and be pregnant.
Speaker 1:Um, that wasn't for me. If I, if I needed to, I would. Uh. So you know, the first pregnancy she had preeclampsia. If there were any complications that would make her either not want to carry or couldn't but we wanted to then. I would have, but I didn't have to.
Speaker 3:Nice. So if you decided that you wanted to have a third, would you carry for that third, third.
Speaker 1:So Amanda would make me care, yeah, if we wanted a third. But I think, through having one I've realized I'm not the type of person that can have three.
Speaker 2:She's good with the two yeah.
Speaker 1:So she hasn't even had the second one yet.
Speaker 2:So first, we wanted three. We had the first one.
Speaker 1:I was like no we're not having done at one, not having three and Amanda's like we could do twins, because I want to be pregnant only twice and I'm like I'm not having twins, I don't want three. I think I would be a bad parent. You know, I just I can do. I could do one, I'll learn to do two, and then we're just done. What's the hardest thing about about parenting for you? It's the same thing as it was, I guess, with like the whole process of going through the pregnancy is the hardest thing about parenting for me is keeping my reactions in check and how I should be talking to Rowan or you know the kindness and the patience and all these things that I'm really. You know I think I'm doing really good at and trying to do, but it's not an innate response for me it doesn't come naturally Right, and so it's really hard to.
Speaker 1:I don't know, rewire yourself to do that, yeah, and keep myself in check, so I'm not pushing any of my you know stuff onto this little tiny baby, because she's two and doesn't want to brush her teeth and I, you know, I'm like, oh, I'm so tired and then you have to just kind of like calm yourself down and yeah, you know, that's been really a growth for me.
Speaker 2:Do you find yourself arguing with her and? Then realize that she's only two, yes, so we actually have a funny story. She's a smart two year old.
Speaker 1:So she's been since she. She climbed out of her crib and then just face planted out. She's never gone back in her crib. So we had to switch her back to a bed right or a toddler bed and it's been tricky. So we did that in October and she would not stay in the bed, she would just come back out. So we'd stay in her room with her, but then it was like two hours we were in the room. We're like we can't. You know, it's been two months of this. We can't do it anymore.
Speaker 2:I'm exhausted, we can't do anything, and you both do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one would do it until you couldn't do it anymore. Yeah, and then switch, oh my God, and we're like we have no idea what we're doing. Yeah, you look up all the stuff about it. Some people are like chair in the dark and I'm like so You're just there. Don't look at the baby.
Speaker 2:Don't make eye contact.
Speaker 3:I see Jackie in the corner, facing the corner, like she's on timeout. They do, they're like, don't speak.
Speaker 1:Just stay there and I'm like that's weird. So we did a compromise where we put a baby gate in her doorway. So we go and we put her to bed and we say, you know, we'll come back in 15 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever, if she doesn't fall asleep. But she would still come and run to the gate and just like Mama, Mommy.
Speaker 1:And so Amanda had given her a shower. You know, an hour before and I'm downstairs and I'm trying to get her to stay in the bed and she comes out and she's crying for mommy. But I want Amanda to be able to sleep, so I'm like mommy's in the shower. You know mama will be up there in 10 minutes. Mommy's in the shower and Amanda hears her talking to herself at the gate and she's like mommy's in the shower, Mommy's shower with me, Mommy, not in the shower, and I'm standing down there, yeah, and she yells down mommy not shower.
Speaker 2:And I'm standing down there, yeah, working through it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she yells down mommy not shower. And I start laughing and I go back.
Speaker 2:I'm like that's not the point. Mom's not coming. Mom's not coming, okay. The point is your ass needs to get in the bed. Just go to bed.
Speaker 1:You go to bed and I was like what bed you go to bed? And I was like what damn you're two. You were just on a bottle.
Speaker 2:I feel like yesterday, oh no not, that's gonna be tough for you, so she's quick, she's quick yeah, you gotta be quick.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so those are the tough. It's like pre-planning how I have to be to be ahead of this kid, yeah you know, it's like the quick-witted comebacks, the logical answers, the answers to why and all that stuff.
Speaker 3:That's what? Yeah, that's what I would think.
Speaker 1:But why?
Speaker 3:Yeah, but why, but why?
Speaker 2:I would always say why?
Speaker 3:Oh, my God, my mom's favorite answer was because I said so yeah.
Speaker 2:You can get away with that sometimes, yeah. Not all the time Once in a while yeah, not all the no, that's fine. How did you manage bonding with a child that you didn't birth?
Speaker 1:So that's a good question. I did think about that. We talked about it. I mean, it's strange. You grow up in a heterosexual society. All the books are mom and dad, everybody says mom and dad, all these kind of things. So you first have to figure out what you're going to be called. What does she call you? So she calls me mama and she calls her, all these kind of things. So you first have to figure out what you're going to be called, you know, and the different names.
Speaker 1:So she calls me Mama and she calls her Mommy, okay, and that's worked out really well. So she knows exactly who we are. If someone messes up our names, even I will mess up our names once in a while She'll be like no, that's Mommy. Okay, so that works really well. The bonding with her is I don't bond to anything, right away. Yes, we know this Despite DNA. Even with this, we had a conversation today and Amanda said something. Amanda said something about the baby number two.
Speaker 2:Oh, alright, there you go.
Speaker 1:It's full of blood you know, you know he said full of blood.
Speaker 2:Oh, she threw up there, you go. No, it's not you go.
Speaker 1:no, it's not like that it's not like that, like with the man she said this we were talking about this second baby and she said something about how do you feel? Do you think you'll love this one more than rowan, or something? Who?
Speaker 2:said this, amanda, you know we're talking about feelings and I'm like therapy.
Speaker 1:I'm like, honestly, I didn't even like rowan until she was four months. You know what I mean. I'm like I don't know this next baby yet.
Speaker 1:I have to get to know the baby, you know, it's just, it's kind of and I feel like I would feel like that, the same way if I was the birthing parent until the pregnant, because I don't have that extra hormonal kick. So a lot of people feel guilty if you aren't immediately like I'm in love. And don't get me wrong, I loved the baby and like the protectiveness was there, the like coddling, the taking care of anything she needed. I was there, but I didn't feel like that immediate attachment. Yes, yes, yes, yes, and it did start to grow and I think part of that too was just the experience of it being the first time and then all the other anxieties and fears and worries and stuff, just everything together.
Speaker 1:And then the next part that made it a little tricky for me, that took me a bit to get past, was because we know which egg is whose right and so you know when you have family or grandparents, anybody wants to see themselves in their box. Right, and I have wonderful family, wonderful in-laws. But in the beginning, when I'm already feeling a little insecure, I'm not the birthing parent, you don't know your place, you don't know what your name's going to be, you don't know what you're doing, if you're doing it right, and then you just constantly get these. She looks like Amanda, she has these traits of Amanda, just every you're erased Right, sort of you know, and so then that throws in another kind of hit to like where your spot is, yeah, and that's more of just kind of a personal struck, you know, insecurity, something that went away fairly quickly, okay, because that's when she was little right.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like newborn stuff. She can't show their personality. As she started to grow, she loved me. Yeah, yeah, that's the favorite part, and you get to kind of talk to them and play with them, and even when they're, you know, six months and so on stuff like that. So once, the anxieties of not knowing what I was doing, the fears that she was going to be kidnapped while I was putting her in the car at the grocery store, you know, all that stuff.
Speaker 1:Once that kind of died down, I could breathe a little bit and enjoy it, and then that's when the bonding came in, so when I could breathe a little bit and enjoy it, and then that's when the bonding came in, so when I could kind of tackle all that other stuff, and then from there it's just been like sailing. You know, because she's, it's baby one, baby two, embryo one, mine, hers, it doesn't. I really don't even see anything. It will. And I don't fault the people in the beginning. First because it is kind of cool to be able to see traits pass on, you know, like something in you, but at the same time I can see so many traits in Rowan's personality that I've instilled just by being a nurturer.
Speaker 1:You know, like the nurture versus nature, and Amanda points it out all the time, you know. So she has Amanda's cleft chin and her grandma's blue eyes, but she has, like my kind of stubbornness and my don't tell me what to do and my you know what I mean. So, yeah, it's once you.
Speaker 3:Her learned behavior.
Speaker 1:Yes, mimicry, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:That's cool to see, though, too, like when you see them do something that you do. It's kind of rewarding in a sense, right you're like yeah, that's me right there. Yeah, that's my kid, that's my kid what would she do?
Speaker 1:a lot. She doesn't do anything super cool yet because she's so little, but she would do um, I sigh, a lot, I do a heavy sigh, a lot, yeah. And so she was like a year old, baby, year and a half, just walking around going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can see that Life is so tough.
Speaker 1:Life is so tough.
Speaker 2:That's when she wants the Diet Coke and cigarettes. This is insane, no cigarettes. I stopped that a while ago. The nicotine is strong, the nicotine, the nicotine is strong. Do you chew the gum?
Speaker 1:I wish I could.
Speaker 3:No, but I'm a vapor. No, she's not allowed to Vapor.
Speaker 1:I need the streamlined. Got it Okay.
Speaker 3:So we have a couple more questions because we're going to wrap this up. This is going to be a short episode because they got to get home to their baby. So how do you keep the romance alive? How do you do it while you're going through the process of IVF, but also how do you do it thereafter having a baby?
Speaker 1:This would have been a much better question for Amanda.
Speaker 3:But I want your perspective, because she's very good at that.
Speaker 1:She's very good at that. But so for me, you just take different forms of intimacy, you know through, because you can still have sex during pregnancy. But aside from that, the pregnancy, the baby, you're tired, there's new responsibilities, so you have to find pockets of it. So, whether it be stealing 25 minutes during a lunch break to sit and talk or play a card game or, you know, hold hands at dinner, cook together, so it's just kind of stealing moments where there are none, and then planning like one big thing every once in a while, like we did the first time. Amanda's parents watched the baby. We did a whole weekend in Santa Barbara. That was just us.
Speaker 2:So like no baby, just us.
Speaker 1:And you can't do that all the time because it's expensive and there's school and all these things. But just that. So like kind of expanding the idea of intimacy to be all kinds of different things. We would love the idea of like a date night every Tuesday or something, or you know, maybe shifting it to day dates, I think is what we're thinking about. So it's just kind of that.
Speaker 3:I think that's when people start planning things.
Speaker 2:Right Put it in the calendar yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But it comes to Sexy Saturdays, yeah, it's easier when you remember Wild Wednesdays, wild.
Speaker 2:Wednesdays.
Speaker 3:Wet.
Speaker 2:Wednesdays.
Speaker 3:We're talking about babies here I Wednesdays. We're talking about babies.
Speaker 2:Here I'm just saying you want to talk about that stuff, goodness.
Speaker 3:I'm talking about keeping the spark alive Morning Mondays. Oh see, go ahead, jackie, continue. Sorry, jackie.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh Day dates. But I think it starts with keeping the lines of communication, remembering that you're both doing your best, because it does get overwhelming and it can be really easy to fall into a not a blame game but I'm doing this, yeah, you're not doing this, like that kind of stuff. So making sure that you don't fall into that trap, yeah, um, is first and foremost because if you fall into that, then you're never even gonna get to step two with the day dates and wanting to do that because you're angry, reminding each other that you're doing your best and let's go celebrate you are doing your best.
Speaker 3:I get those christmas cards. They are the cutest thing in the world makes me want to have a baby just looking at the little picture of this cute little family everything's making you want to have a baby.
Speaker 1:Well, and if these sounded scary, these conversations, because we were just telling you the nitty gritties, all this stuff but it is a wonderful experience, all the stuff that we went through. I would do it again in a second oh, that's good, and amanda would too, and the and having rowan is one of the hardest things I've ever done, but's you fall asleep and she wants to hold your hand.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a rewarding moment, yeah, and it's like the day you forgot anything bad that ever happened. Yeah, I love it. Bye.
Speaker 1:Mama.
Speaker 3:I love it. So we're going to play a little game with you. Oh yeah, we're going to round out the episode by playing this little game. We call it Boo or Snooze. This little game, we call it Boo or Snooze. This is Celebrity Edition. You tell us whether you are going to boo her or you're going to snooze her. Ava's going to read them to you.
Speaker 2:Sydney Sweeney Snooze. I like her shows though. Natalie Portman, boo, adriana Lima oh, we hear the sighs in the background.
Speaker 3:I don't know, we might have to play this with Amanda off camera.
Speaker 1:You could do a good one with Amanda Adriana Lima circa 2004 when I was in high school, for sure. All right, boo, I'm sure now too. What am I talking about? Anne Hathaway, oh, I love her so much. I don't know if I'd sure now too. What am I?
Speaker 2:talking about, but Anne Hathaway.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love her so much I don't know if I'd boo her, but I want to be her friend, so you'd snooze her.
Speaker 2:Mila Kunis Boo, love her.
Speaker 3:Yeah, love her. You kind of remind me of Mila Kunis a little. That's great I think that's why she boos. She's going to boo herself.
Speaker 2:Megan Fox no, no, not my type Shakira.
Speaker 1:No but.
Speaker 2:I love Shakira too.
Speaker 3:Ariana Grande oh she's cute, she's little, she's little for me, kind of gives me pedophile vibes no.
Speaker 2:She's little for me, eva Mendes.
Speaker 1:Oh, she might be too spicy for me, but I think I would boo her. All right, the last one Last one.
Speaker 2:This could stir up some controversy. Blake Lively Boo, I love Blake Lively.
Speaker 1:I love Blake Lively. I'll say it straight to the camera. She's like I don't care what anyone thinks, I don't care if she's being sued.
Speaker 2:I don't care if she's a mean girl. I'm booing that mean girl. I'm booing her up. I'm booing her, all right.
Speaker 3:All right, All right, guys. We're going to wrap this episode up. We hope you enjoyed it. Thank you so much for listening and watching, and we'll catch you guys on the next one Later. Booze See ya, booze. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the let's Say More podcast. If you can, please show your love and support by writing a review on Apple Podcasts, rating us on Spotify and, of course, spreading the word and sharing us with your community, we would greatly appreciate it. The let's Say More podcast is produced by yours truly, Solange Aurelio and Ava Mozaffari, and edited by myself as well, Solange Aurelio.
