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Jordan Sorcery and Stu from Miniature Realms are reading the original fiction published by Games Workshop for Warhammer, 40k, and Dark Future.
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Revisiting Warhammer Armies: Undead | GW Book Club
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The Undead were a combined force to be reckoned with in Warhammer 4th edition, but how does their one and only Armies book hold up?
Stu from Miniature Realms and Jordan Sorcery chat about their latest read in the GW Book Club - a regular podcast talking about classic books published by Games Workshop and the Black Library.
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Hello and welcome to the GW Book Club where I am joined by my good friend Stu to chat about classic Warhammer and Games Workshop books. This time we're going to be taking a look at Warhammer Army's Undead from the fourth edition of Warhammer Fantasy. Stu, how are you doing, mate? Are you alright?
SPEAKER_00Really good. Always good when we're covering a fourth edition book because these are just brilliant.
SPEAKER_01Love them. It is like the era of Warhammer Fantasy Army's book that's just like perfect in many ways, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I I think at the time I would have looked on the covers as a little bit too cartoony. I can remember thinking, oh, having enjoyed third edition so much, I kind of missed some of the darker elements of it. But nostalgically looking back on the covers now, I love them. But it's the content that's amazing. They they set up everything we know now. And every time we review one of these, we end up saying something very similar along the lines of this was the initial time that they told all these stories that evolved into the lore that's repeated again and again now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I know what you mean about those covers, right? Because they are absolutely amazing, like really beautiful. Um, a lot like very actually very colourful, right? There's a lot you get a lot of like quite bright colours, even for the undead, you know, and there's obviously a lot of black on here, but there's also like purple and red, and there's like blues. There's like quite vibrant, I suppose you might say. It was Dave Gallagher's cover for this Army's book, and he did a lot of other amazing like covers as well. But yeah, it is it is uh yeah, cartoon. I know what you mean by cartoon, it's not quite cartoony in in one sense, right?
SPEAKER_00It's but it is not a cartoon image at all. That's a terrible thing. No, but it is there's a certain something to that.
SPEAKER_01I know what you mean.
SPEAKER_00It's it's red era, it's it really signifies that red era games workshop, and uh and I love it now and I love looking back on it. But there was a point in it shows you can be a a grognar even in your your your teens. I can remember when these the second uh when fourth edition started to kind of bed in a bit more and more of these books came out. Uh, it was a case of I love this, but also I kind of miss the uh the feel of third edition. Looking back on it now, um I love it, love it completely, but I makes you makes you understand why people get to different eras within the game and go, oh, I used to love it with um and I found I was doing it myself even as a like 15, 16-year-old.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I can I can understand it. I think it's interesting as well, looking back at second edition or third edition rather, where you can actually see like you know some of the colour plates that they would have in some of the supplements, like Warhammer Armies, then they are quite colourful as well and quite cartoony in the same way, like not exactly the same style, but some of those layouts do have some similarity with this era of armies book cover, so there is a bit of continuity there. Yeah. I mean, I think what I find really interesting about Warhammer and the and the Army's books in particular, is like I really I love fourth edition. I think if anybody were to say like what's what's your favourite set of armies books, I would say fourth edition, but then also I really love like sixth edition armies books as well, like because they they take it in a completely different direction but it and and it is amazing, and it's probably my favourite version of the Warhammer world, like for like that I inhabit, if that makes sense. Like fourth edition is the is the version that I grew up with, which was like really important, which is all the foundational kind of view for me, the kind of foundational view of the the lore and the world. Fifth edition obviously is basically fourth edition, just continued. Sixth edition does something very different and is and is a world that I like to return to to like tell stories in. So I enjoy telling, like, you know, playing games in that era as well. And then 8th edition has other things, you know, like I really I think that those armies books are really beautiful objects, and like they're they're they're really nice as well, just like as they so it I I find it really you know, I basically love all armies books, I think, is the is my problem. But yeah, I think the the this era is a very special era for me, and I'm sure for a lot of other folks as well, not least because it is the first era of like dedicated Warhammer Armies books. For these guys, for this faction, Undead, it is the only dedicated armies book that exists, right? This is the only time it's the collective Warhammer Armies Undead, because for the next set of uh armies books that will come out, they will be vampire counts and Tomb Kings. So you know, you kind of get something really interesting and and quite unique with this one as well. What's your sort of general you know, think about the whole book in its entirety? Like, what's your general feel about it? Are you like a fan of this version of Undead in Warhammer?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I was because it's still it it still reminds me of what was there before, which was that that skeleton horde box set. It still feels like that lives within it, it's not just because some of the minutes just still exist. Um, it just feels like it's that evolved. Um, it's like this thing works. Um, it's beforehand it was almost like undead. Every fantasy game has undead. You you you get this, you don't need to be taught what sort of shambling skeletons are. You you see this in loads of different um media films, whatever. Um, so undead are undead, but this starts to sort of bring it into the Warhammer world, and you've got characters being born and and rules for them, and they start to feel um like it's on that path to what we know today. And even though uh it goes into vampire counts and to Tomb Kings, those core characters that we now have in those separate armies are all here, and that intertwining story of of uh Nagash and and and the Tomb Kings and the areas of the vampire counts in the old world are all kind of melded together here. It's the origin story for for most of it. So uh it it it does everything for me. So it's still got the old feel inside the book, and it there's all the paths towards the the stuff that we we know now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I think there's something in this book that is lost for me in later versions of of Undead. Not that I don't love vampire counts, I I think vampire counts are great, actually. Tomb Kings, I I'm not as keen on, just generally. I think they're so like hyper focused on a particular aesthetic that that isn't necessarily for me. And what you get in here is the kind of third the third way of undead, which is the kind of like it is the ghosts and and like you know, it's the barrow whites from like from Tolkien, it is just like weird supernatural stuff just hanging out in graveyards in the old world, and I think a lot of that comes from like I think reading through this book, there is loads of like cinematic influences. I think no other Warhammer book is owes quite so much to movies as this one because of the two the sort of twin horror icons of the Universal Monsters and Hammer Horror. And I think both of those filtered through like the Citadel range that got you two here, they are they all find a place here. So you do you get your like you know, you get all of the mummies and from classic hammer horror stories and from classic like universal monsters mummy movies, they're here, but then there's also literally like Boris Karloff vampire guys they're running around, you know. And yes, we're moving, we're already moving towards what will be vampire counts, and you know, Manfred von Karsten's here, they're all here already, but there's still shades of the like tuxedo cape wearing vampire. Like they're still uh they're still just in about, and that's because they were in the earlier Citadel Rangers as well, right? You know, you had all of the stuff that that were were those Draculas, like 20 different Draculas running around, and and Frankenstein's monsters and ghouls and all of those kind of like different types of ghosts and whites and stuff like that. So all of that's still here. I mean, I love the idea, you know. We get Krell, we get an updated version of Krell here. I love the idea of Krell because he's this continuation of like the chaos skeleton warrior, which was a bigger thing in earlier Citadel uh miniature ranges. Because that's just wild, that's just like a completely other different thing. That's a cross, you know, as Warhammer becomes more sort of distinct and kind of sorts itself out into these different categories over time, you lose these weird things that exist in in the in-between. That's the reason you lose the sort of skeleton horde and the the you know, the old sort of shambling Ray Harryhausen style skeletons. Yeah, they kind of get lost because they don't neatly fit in a Tomb King's sort of Egyptian undead army, or really, you know, they don't quite fit in a ghoul-based, you know, wet undead army of vampires as well. So this is a this is a great era for me because you do you do get all you get all of it, you get a bit of everything. It's a smoggers board of just like undead delights, I think.
SPEAKER_00True. Of course, though, they kept those skeletons for both ranges and used the same skulls.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, but the feel wasn't quite the same, I guess.
SPEAKER_00I know you mean it's how you paint them, isn't it? I guess, in some ways, but I know what you're guessing at. They don't look like they're you don't imagine, you no longer imagine them as a scene from Jason and the Argonauts when they're kind of clinking along. Yeah, exactly. They're either kind of crawling out of the ground or they're um they're they're they're dusty. Um there's a different element. But I do know what you mean, and and you explained it far better than than I did when I was bumbling around. But the the the the the all of those key players are there from every horror you can imagine, and it is quite charming in the world. It is charming.
SPEAKER_01That's the right word, yeah, yeah, completely, yeah. But yes, this is also so and and part of that journey to sort of creating these distinct flavours of undead that we'll get later on starts here with the introduction of Nagash, right? Now, I I've I've tried to double check this, I haven't fully confirmed this. There may be a reference to Nagash somewhere else, and I've not sort of nailed it down yet. But I believe this is the first time we sort of get proper introduction of Nagash, who this person is, what their lore is, and the positioning of them as very central to Warhammer's sort of concept of necromancy and and undead. Um, you know, essentially they created necromancy themselves after learning elements of it from the Dark Elves, which is really interesting. Obviously, Nagash, great character, has some really fun stories in the Warhammer world. It's a lot of power and a lot of like lore to put into the hands of a single character. Um what's your feeling on Nagash here? Like you know, just this this era and and knowing what Nagash will go on to become for Warhammer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I don't know really. It's just I I I've always loved uh Undead from a visual point of view. I've never been hugely into their lore. Um I don't get as excited reading about Nagash as I as I do reading about Empire Electric Counts or something like that. So I've always had a slightly um distant relationship to them. They are the bads, and I'm happy for them to be the bads. I I don't really have any emotional connection to Nagash. Um I've in enjoyed the the more modern stories with him, and he's obviously so pivotal at so many different points throughout the Warhammer World's history, including the end times. Um, but I still have never been super excited about that whole story arc. They for me they are the background to the big bads that hopefully my armies will come up against. Um so I don't I don't really know. I don't as I said there's nothing stands out about the way he's presented here that that makes me think, oh wow, this is really different. It just feels like this is our first sighting of him, and maybe that's clouded so much about how much I know he's going to form so many of the future stories within the the the Warhammer world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, it's hard to get away from that long shadow that he he will also be first. I think it's dead interesting to me how I've talked, you know, obviously there's a lot of cinematic elements to to to the undead as they're presented here. Nagash, though, is despite being like aesthetically like Egyptian, and and we'll go into all of the the stuff on that around Kemri and Nehakara and all that, I think that Nagash himself is probably the most Tolkien thing in this book. So he represents Warhammer's Sauron, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01This it it is uh you know the dialogue is between Priestley and Tolkien, and he's saying this is I I'm giving Warhammer its Sauron equivalent, and that is why he's got thousands of years of history, that is why he always comes back, he has his own magic crown in which an essence of him exists and exerts influence on people who wear it. You know, he he will always come back and will always be the thorn in the side of the good people of the old world. But one thing that is really super interesting to me, at least, is that in the TV show Rings of Power, which is based on Tolkien's work, broadly speaking, they they introduce a concept in that in that show where Sauron and and spoilers for Rings of Power, and it's a flashback, hopefully it's not too spoilery, but Sauron, you see an earlier version of Sauron who gets betrayed and killed, and then spends centuries sort of re-coalescing as this kind of black goo that kind of all comes back together and then reforms into the body of Sauron so that he can return and do some bad stuff again. And that that scene, almost identical, which was created for Rings of Power. I don't believe it's in the Silmarillion or any of Tolkien's actions. That scene is almost beat for beat, exactly how it is described, that Nagash reformulates after getting destroyed. So that's a really interesting like circle of inspiration. Now, I don't know whether the Rings of Power writers are like big Warhammer 4th edition undead armies book fans, and they were like, we've gotta do that. Or maybe it's just parallel thinking and it's a you know, it's just a common idea. But it's so similar that I found it dead interesting that if Priestley and and the Warhammer writers were inspired by Tolkien to create Nagash in the first place, and then he operates in a certain way and comes back from the dead in a certain way, and then the writers of a later Tolkien-inspired work would then take inspiration from this or at least create something very similar to this. I thought that was really I thought that was a wild coincidence at the very least.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sure. I haven't I hadn't made that connection actually, but uh it's it's a good one. Um I wonder if that um idea of of of reformation comes from somewhere else as well.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and that's probably more likely, actually. You're right. Yeah, maybe it is maybe there's some like biblical story or other story, some older story, maybe it's in Beowulf or something, I don't know. Uh and and everybody's referencing that same thing. That could that probably make even more sense, yeah. Yeah, but yeah, I I think the the the fact that Sauron, you know, and you even have Mordor, basically, right? You you know Nagashazir as as his sort of homeland. There's lo there's just loads of stuff that says to me like this is how we're gonna get Sauron into the Warhammer world without him being actual Sauron. And as they always did when they did the great the greatest work of of Warhammer, they were like, Okay, well, we're gonna reference or we're gonna be inspired by or homage something else, you know, and oftentimes that was talking, but we're gonna we're gonna do that to something else, but we're gonna find a way to make it ours, and we're gonna give it our own like Warhammer flavor, and I think they do do that here, not just through his sort of Tomb Kings relationships, but also his like relationship with the Skaven, which I think is fun. That there's all Nagash and the Skaven are just these like like bitter, like I kind of see them as like I don't I they're both villains, obviously, but they're almost like villainous next-door neighbours who just never tend to they never actually sort of kill each other, they're just always squabbling, which I think is fun.
SPEAKER_00I think that's fair. I think that's fair.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, so you you get so Nagash being this kind of big important character, I think is really interesting. We obviously have read in the book club uh the Drakenfels stories, you know, we've we've sort of got that story, and it kind of feels it's always felt a shame to me that Draconfels was kind of dropped from Warhammer lore because I think it's a very cool character. And I think ultimately the reason Draconfels doesn't exist after those books is because Nagash quickly comes to exist. So it's only a few years that Nagash appears, and all of the same sort of mechanisms that exist for Draconfels, you know, he he lingers in the darkness, he always comes back, there's always these curses. I mean, and this is true of a lot of undead characters, right? They all come back. But as the sort of great big band, yeah, Draconfels is kind of displaced by neck. You can't have two guys who are both since the dawn of time have been the most evil necromancer that's ever existed, really. So yeah, we we we had to sacrifice Draconfels to get Nagash, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_00I think um the fact that undead don't die is is is is probably the most important point there, but um, but yeah, I know you I know what you mean. They would fit very much into the into the into the same space narratively, because uh uh Drakenfels is is he's more powerful than than the other vampires we meet, the uh the von Karstein family. There's a different level, so you don't need another level in between him, him and and Nagash, or them and Nagash. So it is a shame though. I would have quite liked a world where it was Drakenfels instead of Nagash. But we probably wouldn't have Toon Kings then. I don't think it would have evolved off into that into that sort of direction.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and and that is, I suppose, the thing of Nagash is that and and this is what you do, this is where again the writers of various Warhammer books do great work, is by giving lots of relationships. It's kind of like creating RPG characters where you want all of the hooks into different like like dynamics, so you've got a reason for this character to spend time with that character to fight this army or that army. Nagash, obviously, his big story is is around the Tomb Kings, but then you also get Nagash went out and fought Sigmar, and so he's kind of got an ancient grudge against the Empire. He's he's fought against dwarves at times, he hates the Skaven because they're constantly stealing his warp stone and stuff like that. So you kind of get like some nice elements there. I do think it there I don't want to say it's like a Mary Sue kind of situation with Nagash, but he's so he's so powerful. You can see why he became a god in Age of Sigmar. Yeah, because he creates necromancy, but he also created the vampires, and that was a completely different thing, like that was a different project. He he did he did both, and he did them for different reasons in different ways. Uh and it it's it's kind of I mean, I guess it makes thematic sense with like undead armies collapse when you destroy their leader, so the entire like undead faction and race, as it were, they're all tied to the same foundational being. I guess that's quite an interesting sort of thematic choice. But it does it does it puts a lot of eggs in the in the Nagash basket, I I guess.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess so. I mean he's even before he came became a god, he was demigod anyway, wasn't he? Above so many other characters, only chaos characters will be that kind of power level within the the Warhammer world. So I I do I think it it probably is fun that you bring both dry and wet dead together under one unifying factor, but they are both different, they do work mechanically different, but like you said, they're very much the the same way. It's probably a bit like rugby union and rugby league, they're both playing with the same shape balls, but the the rules are slightly different. Uh but the end the end result is very, very similar. Sorry, rugby fans who hate what I just said, but it's um to anyone outside of the UK who haven't got a clue what I'm talking about as well. But um I I I think it works actually, as much as um as I unlike you. I prefer the vampire undead rather vampire count than I do the Tomb Kings. I think that the fact that he connects both those story arcs so well and is the origins of. both sides, I think actually makes it really, really interesting, much more in-depth, complicated, believable actually, because it's more so many layers to it. Um narrative for Warhammer and gives it some of that real gravitas that we know of the the the Warhammer story. So I think it's important. As much as he's not my my favourite characters or my favourite stories. It it's so detailed there's so much going on that I think it just adds to the the the fake reality of the story that's being told.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I think that's that's a fair point. And I suppose he is one of the few like characters who has that that level of epic story like mythological storyline. I suppose you've also got like you know Malaith or Malarian as he is now like also has a thousand year history tying into all of these different factions and events across time. There's not many others I suppose now I guess we're in the old world we also have like the the Dragon Emperor and and some of those characters. Yeah yeah true like you know because even like Teclas and Tyrion are much much younger.
SPEAKER_00You know I don't I don't know that there's any dwarves that are as old regardless I think no they don't live that they they live a long time but they're not they're they're not that they don't live as long as elves and they're not ultimately as as powerful because they're not innately magic are they? And I think that's what it boils down to even with the gash is it's all about magical power.
SPEAKER_01Yeah although you know self-made man he pulled himself up by his bootstraps and in and invented necromancy I like that story of you know within the two within the ancient empires the most ancient human civilization you know I and I guess the slam actually they are old right Lord Croak and those lads are all will predate Nagashi even I imagine. But yeah in the earliest human civilization uh in Kemri and in Nehekara they you know it was Egyptian in in style in theme in aesthetic they create created these mortuary cults who become obsessed with death and there's kind of an interesting mirror with like the cult of Moor in the Empire and that sort of stuff. But then with the creation of Necromancy having learned it from the Dark Elves Nagash goes on to then like supercharge this obsession with death and death magic and then you know eventually creates into he becomes a living Lich essentially yes he he gets defeated and then all of or everybody he leaves behind in Nehekara they all become Liches and Tomb Kings and whatever else so now there's a whole civilization of undead leaders with lots of undead armies just hanging out in pyramids basically and that's what you get you know you get the introduction of cetra as well which I know I know a lot of folks love etc. Yes yeah and and that that's first time in this book isn't it I think I believe so yeah I think so yeah and and probably was just a you know we need a we need a character because we've got a load of mummies that we've made so we need a character for that which which maybe was the the birth of what was later to be that the the Toon game faction must must be. I think yeah I think a big part of it yeah I think absolutely um I like Manfred von Karsten I you know I I think the um vampires for me are just cooler anyway as like a as an undead creature I think ghouls are pretty cool as well but having that nestled within the empire and the old world is really fun as well and the fact that you get this kind of you know like there is this little thorn in the side of the empire it just gives you an excuse to have undead against everybody in the old world and there's also this kind of very cool you know Sylvania is just this it is hammer horror like in fantasy it's it's the setting of every hammer horror movie a sort of Eastern European shady kind of place you go into a tavern and it all goes silent and everybody looks at you and you're not supposed to talk about the lord who lives up in the castle on the hill it's that vibe as an army and I think that's very cool. I quite like that.
SPEAKER_00I I love anything that's there's empire anyway so that's probably why I prefer the vampires more just like you said that kind of that the the proximity the proximity to to normal human life and the fact that it's kind of kind of accepted or ignored out of fear um sometimes um liable with out of necessity um it's that element that you we can deal with these people sometimes um but they're also really really dangerous and at times they will there'll be war other times we'll cautiously kind of almost deal with them trade with them etc and I like the way that that's changes a little bit over the the eras of of Warhammer history and yeah it's it's more fun it's more my flavour of of of dead as well I prefer wet dead like you to to to dry dead um I'd rather watch a vampire film than the mummy you do get I mean really interesting actually I think and and kind of ever present but not explored in in quite so much detail I suppose so you get in this book a fair bit relatively speaking about uh Moussillon or Moussillon in Britannia like and it very much sets up okay the you know yes you've got Sylvania which is where the undead are in the empire you have got uh Nehekara where the undead are outside of the empire and then you've got Moussillon in Britannia as like a big potential source of ghouls and and like all kinds of weird undead guys there.
SPEAKER_01And and it's the amount of word count that that covers it is quite surprising given that we don't then get a Britonian army for the fourth edition of Warhammer Fantasy. It's really strange.
SPEAKER_00And and also that we never get museum dealt with in any detail whereas if you think of the two kind of starting points in the book or many starting points the cetra bit well we know where that goes we know that we end up with a whole new faction Musulom never really grew if I'd if anything shrunk beyond this it was always just a footnote in in in timelines isn't it if anything in your main rule book in your timeline mentions the fall of or in your Britannia um army book when you get it there's a little note that says this area went a bit bad but there's not really any character's development or rules for for that era and it just shows that these are lots of ideas and some things will remain background stories and footnotes and some will end up being big story arcs in the in the future.
SPEAKER_01If memory serves there might have been like a sizable section on Moussian in the Warhammer Fantasy roleplay books. So it could it could just be carrying you know that's already established some undead law let's bring it in and reference it I I think that's the case. The other the other sort of carryovers that I'm very pleased were retained and got more detail were were Heinrich Kemler and Krell. You know I've mentioned Krell already but just you know these are characters who are amongst the earliest Warhammer fantasy special characters there are a couple from that era in second edition and you know they who's still around you know Goldpag the Ogre is a is another example but yeah Kemler and Krell they have a really fun story they have this intersection between undead and chaos and all of this sort of stuff and and you you get that here and you get this continuation but they're not quite as closely aligned here as they were prior to this. I think in earlier stories you get you you still get here that Krell is like a lieutenant who works for Kemler but I feel like there's a little bit more distance maybe between the two of them here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah maybe I bet maybe it's just so that people feel they could use them on their own a little bit more but it was nice to see them here and they they obviously endure as well in fact as much as we we're both not huge enjoyers of the end times story arc but I did enjoy their parts in the end times books.
SPEAKER_01They were very enjoyable those characters to sort of always be alive again in many ways to uh to tell that tale but uh it's nice to see them in here it it's it made me think oh yeah of course of course they're gonna be in here but when I was flicking through it I they didn't immediately expect to see them for some reason I'm not sure what that was but yeah yeah and actually Drakenfells himself sort of returns in the end times as well doesn't he and and also has that overlap with chaos in the same way as Krell so you know there's a little there's a little bit of that the the other I mean there's a couple of other characters but I think Dieter Helsnick is pretty is pretty cool on his ridiculous manta court um and he also gets like a scenario in there with like a a very interesting scenario in the back of the book where it's like you you fight two separate battles and one of them informs the other like it tells you if this if the reinforcements make it to the main battle I think that's pretty cool. Like logistically bits like that in games yeah I'm I'm I I imagine that would be a nightmare to play unless you played the small battle first yes but it kind of presents it as like do these at the same time that's the fun way of doing it.
SPEAKER_00There's a it's not for Warhammer but there's a something exists that way with middle strategy battle game where you're right when you're you're doing different parts of Helm's Deep so you're you're you're you either do the ride out bit or you do the to try and defend the gate and and you can do it there's lots of little bits that it's quite cinematic isn't it so and I think if you get your head round this is a cinematic game and you and you work work it out with your opponents that way then it can be really really fun it's already a good way of doing it.
SPEAKER_01That's neat yeah yeah that is good and then the the other thing that is pretty cool in this and it's present in a few fourth edition books a William King fiction uh so we get we get a Gotric and Felix story essentially a small Gotrick and Felix story.
SPEAKER_00I don't think it actually fits in with the Gotrick and Felix continuity though no it feels like it's uh just using their characters as a way of uh these these are popular I I know how to write these characters let's let's put them in a scene it's not even a story is it's more of a scene um of vignette of a of a of a of a tale to to add flavour um it it it works from that point of view it's fun because it's uh it's about the resurrection of Manfred von Karstein so he's back he's he's gonna be out and about I think I think I thought going into because obviously I was familiar with this from this book going into Vampire Slayer the Gotch of Felix book that it that that story would like link in and you and you would find the sort of framing of this scene but obviously it doesn't it it kind of supersedes this scene you go to a different vampire's castle and deal with a different vampire instead um it is quite cool to have to for Gotrick and Felix to have been there at the resurrection of Manfred von Karstian that's pretty neat. But yeah I mean again it's one of these things that could make the world a little bit too small if like everybody's always around together for all of the most important moments true yeah there is an element to that I think he they I think they get away with it I think oh they do yeah they do I think they get a free pass with with with a lot of a lot of things you I mean talking more about King's writing in these books I think it adds to for me adds to the consistency even though that there's they're not all written in a lot of these books these fourth ever books are written by by Rick they're not all um including this one um but I think the format of them is is very clearly got Rick's um thumbprints all over it and the the the the sheer amount of information in these books are very similar there's everything you need it's this is the foundation lore as we've said so many times and in the intro as well but also getting back to my point King's stories in these um are are really consistent as well and they um add a flavour that's consistent across all those those fourth edition books I think and uh you just feel more of that here they're not amazing stories they're not going to win any awards they they but they do what they're designed to do is break up big chunks of heavier drier text and be that rules or or law or whatever with little bits of story here and there like reliefs um and I think they they do it better in these books in my opinion than than any of the little sort of narrative story bits you get in in later um army books or codexes including 40k as well yeah there is a quite a nice one I think with Nagash just sort of sat he's kind of been sat for centuries on his throne sort of repowering himself and then some some thief comes in and tries to steal some stuff and Nagash is like I guess I'll see how this plays out before obviously vaporizing this guy but yeah it's quite that's quite a fun story of just the the just the disconnect that Nagash now has with his humanity because he's so far removed from it.
SPEAKER_01I should correct myself I I've misled you when I said it was Rick Priestley who wrote this one. It's actually Jervis Johnson primary writer yeah so apologies for that I've I I've just double checked but yeah I think that overall it is a great book I think there's so much fun to have here I think I should actually we we ought to mention the amazing art throughout it uh loads of awesome Mark Gibbons pieces in here just just really really characterable I I was thinking of like which is my favourite piece in this in this book and it's hard because there's so many great illustrations obviously there's a load of really cool John Blanche ones but I think for me it's the Mark Gibbons art that kind of takes this one even further. I think Blan Blanche does some really nice like land of the dead art like with these kind of like necropolis looking places that are amazing. But I think possibly that properly iconic Nagash image that Mark Gibbs did it's so good. Not just because of Nagash obviously he's he he looks incredible it's the best possible version you know obviously the miniature there are some people who hate it there's some people who love it I quite like the miniature now I think at the time I wasn't too keen on it but I've grown to love it because of its placement yeah from an almost nostalgia point. But like taking that same broad design and making it into like a scary like 10 foot character and then in front in the foreground you get all of these zombies and they just you can tell that they're like even though it's a black and white image you can tell that their eyes are soulless and there's just this magic eminence coming from their eyes amazing absolutely incredible piece it is awesome yeah and I I I struggled to choose a favourite actually um there's on page 18 is a Mark Gibbons piece which I really like um similar kind of style obviously it's Mark Gibbons style but I really like that um and it's it's it's a nice crossover between his style but some of the more pencil art that you the rougher stuff that you get I really like that one.
SPEAKER_00There's there's something on I'm picking too many things here. That's not my favourite I think that might be third place. On page 27 there's a a beautiful piece that just got so much going on and that's that's more your what you were talking about with these big sort of vista and loads and loads of stuff going on Blanche my favourite actually is that page 51 and it's a smaller image I'm gonna skip to it now so I don't describe it incorrectly he says I'm skipping through it.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's just on the the top of the um the undead battle tactics section I just really like it you've got the the undead army lining up against the the empire army I'd love to see this bigger and you've got your empire wizard I can see this bigger I think this was the same piece that was on I think I'm right in saying this might have been on the arcane magic box set.
SPEAKER_01Oh right and if it's not on that then I'm pretty certain it's on a Citadel journal cover as well. Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I didn't picture it from that but I just love it in black and white there just looks it's great looks looked really great. It's actually one of my favourite little sections of the book actually it's in the middle of the the what was obviously White Dwarf the Revenger of the Doomlord you've got this narrative scenario in there that's almost sort of it tells you what army to pick if you want to but you can play this battle you can read the story of the battle because the law's in there unlike modern versions of the game where they just lead you up to the point this actually tells you what happened in the historical version of it and you've got tactics you can use but then you've also got the rosters if you want to use the armies for it all in this weird kind of amalgamation of a section of a book which is it's quite weird that's partly because it's obviously a magazine article that's been placed into an army book but I I really quite like it. It does multiple things. If you want to just a scenario to play the game you can just take the scenario out of them if you can't play the game well you can still get a feel for it look at the maps but then read the this the story of it and then read about undead tactics as all part of it I just think it's in a really unusual way to present that within a it in an army book and it's very different you wouldn't see that in an army book now.
SPEAKER_01No I think you're right and it is it's neat it because it it does give you different flavours of the game it allows you to sort of tackle the same idea the same battle in a couple of different ways however you might like to play it you're right of course you know part of the way that these books worked was that they literally would republish stuff in White Dwarf because that would cover the cost of actually creating it in full colour. That's why most of the book is is black and white so that that's that's the reason that there's loads of like repeat repeated stuff because when you did it in White Dwarf as pages for White Dwarf and then that sold enough copies that actually that paid for your colour pages you got them for free to put them into the armies book so it's the economies of of how you know this was this is it wasn't full colour because they couldn't afford it back in the day. There's also an interesting point there actually around you get Vlad and Isabella von Karstein the vampires they're they're dead dead at this point in Warhammer history. They're probably dead because they were killed many centuries earlier Manfred is the only von Karstein left. That's right yeah yeah but this was a really interesting thing around and it sort it sort of still happens but like because Warhammer was a setting and not a story much more so at this time that you would get these historical characters that you could you were sort of essentially could play historical games and and rec recreate stuff that had already happened using these older characters and that was just a cool thing you could do. And it could and I think that came from the fact that you know a lot of the writers of Warhammer at the time were historical gamers. They played historical games so they were always playing games that had already happened and you're recreating them. So there's quite an interesting thing there I think that kind of has died away a little bit as we've moved to you know the the distinction between setting and story has kind of closed a little bit and we're closer to there's a continuing story across these games and the characters who are around are all the characters who are alive and and I they are active agents in the story now more often than not I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I think absolutely that's something that I I see it now in in arguments on in forums and in on Facebook or in comments on videos about um well they used to they didn't care about timelines before they used to just have the characters in the books and they wouldn't all be alive at that point when you could play whatever you want as an argument for well why don't they do it now? Why don't we have some of these old characters within the new old world timeline because it shouldn't matter we should just be able to play with them. And I I kind of it's nice from a historical point of view I'm not sure um I'd want things from the future maybe but yeah we don't have absolutely now problem isn't it it's a now problem rather than a a then problem because they were always at the definitive point of the of the timeline then um whereas now we're looking back at uh uh uh or looking back and forwards at uh at timelines but I think you yeah you're right it they used to do it a lot it didn't have any real impact negatively I don't think anyone even thought about it I don't think you wanted to do an army based around that you'd just do it and and it wouldn't matter you'd just play the game based on that um yeah it's interesting isn't it yeah and and I I quite like it I think I I'm probably the worst type of of gamer though for when it comes for games workshop at least because I want my cake and I want to eat it.
SPEAKER_01So I want the historical characters I want the choice to be able to go oh yeah this is set 400 years before the current timeline and we're just playing a load of elves who have long since died off but I also like a continuing story so I kind of want I want both things at the same time but you know I I I think it would be really cool to have some, you know. I would hope that we will get we and we have had some characters in the old world who are around by the time of Warhammer Fantasy's end times. Yes. You know, you get kind of younger versions. I personally think it would be really cool to just have like, okay, can you know, can we have Kemler and Krell? Can we have Nagash and Manfred von Karstein? You know, and they're just they're just around. You could have Vlad and Isabella even though they are dead, even before the old world takes place. But like it would be cool to see them and to be able to use the old world rules with new like stats for those characters. I think that would be cool. I'd be I'd be up for that. You know, if an opponent came to me and said, Oh, I want to play play with Grom the Paunch, I'd be up for it in the old world, I think. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00100%. 100%. But yeah. So not everyone's like us, Jordan.
SPEAKER_01Is there anything else, Jew, from the from the undead armies book, fourth edition, that's like uh, you know, a another extra thing that you wanted to call out?
SPEAKER_00I one other bit of the book I absolutely love, it's incredibly simple, it's the inside cover. And it's just an heavy metal page. And uh and as much as I I said at the beginning that we were edging into that red era, um, this for me is uh it is it has the right balance between the the the third edge sort of visuals um and and the the red era stuff. It's just a beautiful image. Um the scenery the the scratch-built terrain is really, really cool, and it just sums up the era for me perfectly. A lovely bit of scratch built terrain that just sums up the way I feel about Warhammer, the way my nostalgic look of Warhammer, I think.
SPEAKER_01It is, it was great, yeah. It's so good. And it's because it's I mean, I say it's simple, I'm sure it was not simple to make, but it's relatively simple. But the it that yeah, the scratch built terrain's awesome. You've got bits of miniatures in there as well. There's like the imp like uh familiar holding up the top. Is that Mortarion from Epic in the background as well?
SPEAKER_02Uh on the statue, I think, which is just great.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's so cool. Uh, and then yeah, you've got these whites and you've got vampires. It's it's fantastic. I love that vampire count. That that's such a classic miniature, it's so good. Stu, I'm sure we could keep talking about all the cool stuff that's in here, but we've got to draw it to a close. I apologize to you and to everybody else for some of the technical issues I've been having with my internet whilst we've recorded this. Hopefully, folks didn't even know that had happened, and and we've edited around it and it was smooth and fine. But we're gonna come back in the future with more book clubs. We're gonna look at other Warhammer Amis books and codexes from from lots of different eras in the future. Until then, where can people find you online, Stu?
SPEAKER_00Follow me on miniature realms um on YouTube and social media and stuff as well. Fantastic.
SPEAKER_01And I'm Jordan Sorcery pretty much everywhere if you want to check out more of my stuff. Until next time, thank you very much for watching. I'm Jordan, and this is Jordan Sorcery.