33. Between the Frames: Editing Truth from Chaos w/ James Barker

What does it really cost to chase success?

To further explore this idea, we sat down with James Barker—filmmaker, editor, and founder of Edits Etc.—who opens up about his journey through filmmaking, mental health, and personal growth, sharing the lessons behind his philosophy of making it in business without killing yourself.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:16

In light, there is darkness. Sometimes hope disappears. But in our search for light, we grow, persevere, sleeping at the bottom, still dreaming of the sky. Experience the best teacher, the butterfly of Why.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the Butterfly of Why. I'm your host, Jamie Weddell, and we are here to explore the why behind every first step that leads to growth, resilience, and perspective. And there is a version of success that we are taught to chase. One that asks for everything, and sometimes it takes more than we can actually give. But what if? I mean what if? What if there's another way? So today we sit down with James Barker, filmmaker, editor, and founder of Edits Etc., an all-in-one post-production company. And he's been exploring a different kind of idea. How to make it in business without killing yourself. So today we're gonna dive into the highs and lows and lessons learned along the way because sometimes the path to success is a beautiful shit show of cosmic proportions that really just comes down to self-worth, integrity, and companionship with all the people around you to create a better tomorrow. Coming to us from Jersey City, New Jersey, James, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

How's it going? Good to be here.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Nice to have you on, man. Just by the sheer fact that I am still a 201 area cold holder, like it's a special place to have you here today. Uh West Side Avenue in Communipaw, and I believe you're Communipaw.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

I'm right off Communipaw. There we go. Right off Communipaw.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

There we go.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

So I've been in Jersey City for God almost six or seven years now. I love it here.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

Here's what's really interesting about Jersey City. It's not the most amazing place, but it's a special place when you live there. And for anyone that lives in Jersey City, that that grew up there or have have been transplants, you know what I mean. Just once you once you live there, it is unlike any other place in terms of the people that you're around, the experiences you have, the culture, the food, the music, the everything. So it's uh it's it's special to have you here with me today. So I appreciate this.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

No, of course. Yeah, I love Jersey City. I my always fun fact they tell people is that I live two blocks from where cool and the gang got started. So that's always a fun little little you know, tidbit I share at store at uh parties or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

That's nice. I didn't even know that. Um so let's dive into this, shall we?

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

So you weren't always in Jersey City. Uh, and correct me, you were from Annandale, Virginia, correct?

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Yep, Anandale, Virginia.

SPEAKER_03 3:20

And also known as Nova.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Nova, yeah, Northern Virginia. We call it Nova.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

I want to open things up by by learning more about you and your upbringing. Like, what was that like for you as a kid growing up in that part of the country? Uh what your relationship with your parents, your family, school, what was that like for you?

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I loved living in Annandale, Virginia. I don't plan on living there again, which is like a kind of a funny uh you know duality, but no, I mean I lived there my whole life. My parents just moved from the house that they bought in '89, so they were there for 36 years in the same exact house. Um, so that really was home base for me, even though I've been in New Jersey for over 10 years, like actually 12 years now. It Annandale and specifically our street that I lived on uh was always home base. Uh I have three older siblings, um, my two parents, and my parents met in that area. They're not from there originally, but yeah, it just kind of Nova kind of became where we all grew up and kind of came into our own. Um I spent 11 years in private school, um kindergarten through eighth grade, and then transitioned into public school, uh, Annandale Adams, H E O M S, like where like literally like an atomic, like nuclear atomic, you know. And uh it was I to me it's like I always think about the high school itself. I mean, high school, I'm so glad I'm out of that. Like I was never like someone who liked school, like homework, and all that. But the actual like environment and the culture of that high school was so awesome. It's always in like if you look at the rankings, it's always in the top 10 most diverse high schools in America. Um if I remember the numbers correctly, my graduating class had like 85 countries represented. So lots of immigrants um from all over the world. Like Anandale's known for um all of its Korean food, like Korean barbecue spots in Anandale are amazing. Lots of Vietnamese restaurants, so pho is my favorite food. Like I grew up going to Vietnamese spots. Um even like I did theater, so like the theater would be like, you know, uh a white mom, a black dad, a Vietnamese son, like, and that's just how it was, right? That it was we were all just this kind of mishmash of people, and that really started to open my eyes in terms of perspective of other people and other stories. Even today I was thinking about I have a friend who I won't say their name, but I know their their father came over from Venezuela and all everything going on in the world right now, it's been interesting, like seeing his perspective, right, of like what it's like being the child of an immigrant. So without going too deep into the weeds on that, I loved the Northern Virginia region because it's such a it's a place where so many people come to live. A lot of it is for the work for the government, so it's very government focused there. But that just, you know, uh expands into just people living their lives. But anything and I mean kind of like New York, but anything and everything, food, culture, music, whatever you want, it's in Nova.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

So, what point growing up did you sort of start feeling the pull from the creative mediums of filmmaking, screenwriting, editing? Like when when did that come into your world? Were you a theater kid that started acting and then transitioned there, or were you a kid that was just making home movies? How did you kind of get into that world?

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Yeah, I mean, to explain it, honestly, I have to explain my dad a little bit. Uh so my dad and I have the same name, but he goes by Jim. Uh so when my dad was a kid, his grandfather brought out an old, like little 16 millimeter, you know, uh projector, and he would show these old videos. This is in the you know early 60s. And my dad never worked in film, but it was something that he was always super interested in. He thought it was cool. So then once he has kids, he gets you know classic 80s, 90s dad, he has the video camera everywhere. He would record everything, and then so my older brother is almost seven years older than me. And when he was a kid, he when my parents got their first uh PC back in probably like 99, 2000, kind of in that era when people started getting that. The windows came with a free uh editing software. It was terrible, it kept crashing. But my brother was like, this is kind of cool. So he my brother actually, Alex, was the first one to get really interested in this. And so he started to mess around with that. Now, when you're the oldest sibling, who do you cast when you make your movies? Your younger siblings. So my first uh when I think of like my first interaction with film, it's my brother directing me and like and his friends in these silly, funny videos, and like I can still quote them, like we'll still quote them to each other. Uh, you know, they're hilarious, like there's all these really silly characters we invented. Um, so that was where the it got rolling for me, and then once I hit about fourth or fifth grade, I started to do it on my own. At that point, my dad's like, You're old enough, we trust you with the camera, here you go. So I started making these uh terrible stop action Lego movies. Um mostly like Star Wars stuff, because obviously I was obsessed with that as a kid. And we made all the sound effects with our mouths, like we would rip all the music off of YouTube. Don't sue me, John Williams, but uh it was so fun to kind of like that was the first time again for years doing with my family, which was a blast, but having that chance to just me and my three other friends just in my basement in the summertime, just like making something of our own. Um and I remember even the having our little uh premiere we had in the family room, and all the parents and our siblings showed up and everyone laughed and it was fun, and um yeah, so that's kind of where it got started. And I I was always that kid if you know if there were some sort of presentation for for a homework assignment or for a class assignment, I would ask, can I make a movie instead? And they always said yes. So I never presented, not that I'm not bad at public speaking, I just wanted to make a movie. So every year for basically until then through high school, I was always making stuff for class.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

So you you you knew your strengths when it came to how how you were going to show that you've learned something.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Yeah, absolutely. But it and it's funny too, I find that I mean getting an A on one of the videos, and the teacher said, I think she said something like, All the facts are wrong, but this is super creative. Like, like it was kind of my like I was a I was not a great student. I love to learn, but I was not a great student. And it was kind of my way of like doing what I wanted creatively and not doing the homework and kind of just you know rebelling. I mean, youngest of four, I guess the the rebel, like rebelling a little bit, kind of doing whatever I wanted instead.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

As a former communications major, one thing I learned when I was an undergrad was sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it. So I can give a presentation when I was an undergrad, and I might not have all the facts, but if I said it well, if I presented well, then I would get a better grade than someone that's just reading off the index card. So to your to your effect, like, listen, you're wrong in many things, but it was entertaining, so it goes a long way.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Yeah. And if anything, I mean, not that I was something I was processing, but it's kind of the intro into fake it till you make it, which, like in a lot of industries, film industry, you have to sometimes. It's you gotta just figure it out as you go along.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

Staying on those lines, uh fake it till you make it. So you went to film school, so you transitioned from Nova to Montclair State in Montclair, New Jersey. Uh, what drew you to that particular college? And when you got there, what was that transition like for you? Um, in terms of was it a lot of excitement? Was it terrifying? Was it just a lot of fake it till you make it? What what was that process like for you and what kind of drew you to Montclair State in particular?

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Yeah, so when I having three older siblings do the whole college experience, you you definitely uh you're lucky as the youngest because you kind of get to see the not the mistakes, but the the you you learn from them, right? And so for me it was like I knew I had decent grades, not amazing, uh, so I wasn't gonna go to NYU, nor could I afford NYU. And I just like I don't really want to go to California, I didn't want to do all that. So I essentially I literally just Googled film school East Coast and I made a whole list looking at what the grades were and if I could afford it. So I applied to five schools and I got into five four waitlisted at one. And I when I visited all of them uh you know during my senior year with my parents, my mom would take me there. Um it's funny because Montclair, you know, great school, and I'm happy I went there, but it's state school, you know, it's a good state school, it's nothing, it's not some huge Ivy League, you know, famous NYU type school. But there was something about the fact that it's 17 miles outside of New York City. You can see the skyline from the campus, which is really cool. And again, as somebody who did not grow up outside New York, it was still like Disneyland to me. I didn't I didn't fully process what New York was really like yet. Um and there was a senior that I met when I was walking around, and my mom being my mom was like, hey, go talk to that guy because he's in the film program. And he essentially said, This film program can be great if you put the time into it. And he's like, But at the same time, this film program will be really bad if you do nothing. Essentially, like the teachers are gonna be the teachers are good, it's not some big top school, but if you really put in your time into it, it's gonna be a great learning experience. So hearing that from him and seeing kind of like the equipment we get to use that day one a camera is put in your hands. There's some programs where you just study art for a couple years and then you do film. I was like, no, no, I want to go into film now, like that's the only thing I've ever cared about. Um, and so that to me was what drew me to Montclair, and I'm really glad that I did. The whole it's like 97% New Jersey when I was there, so everyone was like, Why are you here? Like they were so confused. Um, but go Redhawks, you know, it was a good time. But it's it's funny you asked like what it was like when I first started. I was really excited as I was going. Um, you know, being the youngest of four, I'd been alone at my house for three years after my sister had gone off to college, so I was definitely ready to get out. Love my parents, but I was like, get me out of here. Too much attention just on me. But at college, I don't really think it was exactly what I was expecting it was gonna be. Um not that I wasn't like prepared for it, but I definitely was I mean, I was a kid still, but definitely immature, definitely not fully processing, like I don't know, that that that that transition, again, is that you know that initial transition you have when you first leave your family, right? Like everyone goes through that who goes to college. If you don't go to college, whenever you move out, it's that initial kind of band-aid rip. So that was kind of a shock to my system. Um I loved all the film stuff, like I was obsessed with it. I like the library had an endless DVD supply, so I was watching things every weekend. Um But I don't know, I uh and you know, the kind of the theme of tonight's chat, I I started to kind of feel weird and I didn't really know how to describe it. Um uh like two weeks before college, my my high school girlfriend and I we broke up, which in the end of the day was a good thing. But obviously, as like an 18-year-old, that's devastating. It's heartbreak. And so it's heartbreak. So it was that two weeks and then going and knowing literally nobody, um, like not knowing anybody. And so, yeah, it was definitely an adjustment for me. And I kind of felt like I was getting on my feet, and then fall of my sophomore year, one of my closest friends uh was killed uh riding his bike. He went to Virginia Tech, he it was a total accident. Um, it unfortunately, like it it all just happened very quickly. And again, it was kind of like this other like just you know, just kept being like pushed down. It was like all the feelings I was already feeling, and it was like being smacked even harder. And so I felt like the first like two to three years of college was literally just me surviving, like like getting by, again, not fully understanding why do I feel this way, because I had a relatively you know happy childhood. Nothing, no childhood's perfect, but it was you know, it was felt very functional, and I couldn't process like what was going on mentally. And um for me when it all really started to to hit was about my junior year, I started to get coming really paranoid, and I literally thought someone was trying to break into my apartment to kill me. Like I thought I was gonna be killed, and I remember knowing something was wrong, and then I communicated enough to know there was something wrong, and I called one of my friends because I knew she was around, she was like 30 minutes away because it was in the summer, and I was like, hey, I've locked myself in the bathroom, you need to come over here right now. And so she came over, which I to this day I'm so thankful she did. I didn't go to the hospital or anything, but she basically just called my brother who lived in Brooklyn at the time. He came and got me. I spent a week with him and his wife, which was great. They hosted me. But that was my first kind of like what's going on moment. Like I didn't I didn't understand because, you know, uh my that generation, my family, we didn't really talk about mental health, like things like depression, anxiety, those were not words used in my household. Not that they were hiding anything, it just it wasn't the vocabulary, so I didn't understand what was going on. So during my senior year, uh on campus, they actually have like free on-campus uh counselors, like therapists. So I went and saw this uh doctor for eight sessions, and that started kind of getting me into my you know, advocacy and openness about mental health. Again, it was a long journey. It took me years to be able to open up about this kind of stuff, but that's kind of how it developed into it. So it was strange in college because one part was loving the art, loving the film community, learning, understanding all this stuff that I've always been obsessed with since as a kid. But then like inside I was just like being eaten alive. Like it was just I was just crumbling internally.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

There is uh a difficulty for young people if they're not exposed to it, but emotional fluency and understanding how to speak what is happening emotionally. And it's difficult if if that isn't a part of the environment growing up and and most families haven't been that way up until the past fifteen some odd years. That's that's it's relatively new thing where families are now talking about it. It so to be an 18-year-old and then you're feeling this, it's like you feel like an alien. Because you don't know that what's happening is just chemical overload. Uh they are uh there's a biological factor that's happening. There's so many things that's happening inside the human brain, but you're looking around and you don't know how to say what's happening. You're looking around as if like you want someone to know what's happening, but you don't want anyone to know what's happening. So it's this sort of tangled web. But having that that understanding to go, okay, something's not right. So calling the the friend when you're in the bathroom, it's it takes a level of courage to go, okay, this isn't right. I got I I I have to express this. Let me just let me make a call. Um, because there is that feeling you had, that is a tremendous level of fear. And when you have that heightened level of fear, because it's not as if anything was happening, but there's such a fear where your brain cannot tell the difference. So that being a first part of the process was probably a huge step for you just by having a friend come over that that night, and then seeing you're then then going to counseling are critical steps that I could see that that started to lead the way, but that wasn't quite the end of things, was it?

SPEAKER_00 19:17

No. So yeah, so I told every pretty much any time I talk to someone who's in college, you know, nearing the end, I say, regardless of any sort of mental health, anything, the transition from college to being like a working adult was the strangest thing I think I've ever experienced in terms of like transitional period. Um but so at that point I was on a very low dose of an antidepressant, which I hadn't told my again, at that point I was an adult, so I hadn't told my parents that I was taking this. Not, you know, whether it's the shame of it or it's not like you said, not disgust or or whatever it was. And again, me being the young, dumb, not educated in this, that summer I was like, ah, I feel better, I don't need this stuff anymore. So this is right after I graduated college. Uh to anyone listening, never do that. Do not go cold turkey on medication, any medication, but especially antidepressants. So I told myself, I feel better, I don't need this anymore. So slowly, and it hit very slowly, I started to kind of feel that funny feeling again. And again, I didn't understand what was going on. I should have been understanding what was going on, but I think part of it was this, you know, I'm early 20s, I want to be like, I can do it on my own, I don't need, you know, whatever, I I I can do this. And again, maybe that's the the younger sibling rebelliousness that I have. And so I started feeling terrible at the end of that that first September. I just had my first job, I've been in the new job for like two months, so I also thought it was like stressed out, nervousness, anxiety of having a real job for the first time. Or not a real job, but a desk job, I'll say that. In my in my career that I want to do. And um I just remember starting to kind of have these crazy, like not it's not bipolar, it's the wrong way to say it, but crazy emotional like waves where I would be like giddy, so happy, laughing, like running around like crazy high energy, and then just like I'm on the floor like crying, like unable to like contain myself. My roommates, um, at the time I I was living with two friends, they didn't know how to deal with it, which again it's not their job to deal with it. Obviously, they were great roommates and they cared about me, but they're not trained, you know, they're my age, they don't they weren't trained mental health professionals. And when I look at it, it's like the time that I finally knew I needed to really get help, because at that point I started figuring out what was going on. Is I remember being in the shower and having a lot of suicidal ideation that had been going on for a while but become so overpowering that I was like, if I Don't do something this very second, I'm going to kill myself. Like I knew I had that just that feeling of just like I my I didn't want to be in my body anymore, I didn't want to exist anymore. But they're still in the back of my head of like I don't want that. I don't want to put that on other people, especially my my family, my roommates, like all that stuff. So I remember coming out in the like from the shower that morning, and I looked at my roommates, and I just said uh I said to one of them, I was like, hey, if you don't take me to the hospital right now, I'm gonna kill myself. Like it was just straight up just that like community, just like saying exactly what it was. And it was kind of like a oh shit moment. Like, okay, let's go. So we get in the car, we're driving to the hospital. At this point, my parents had no idea I was dealing with any of this stuff, right? So I'd been going for years of being super depressed, anxious. I was self-medicating with smoking a lot of weed, drinking, like they had no maybe make maybe there were signs, but you know, I wasn't opening up about this. I'm in a different state. So I text them on the way there and I say, hey, just so you know, I'm away to the hospital. Uh basically I just came clean. I was like, I'm feeling very suicidal right now. Like, my friend's taking me there. This is the hospital we're going to. And I knew this from TV and movies, they're gonna take my phone. So we go up and uh we, you know, sign in, I tell them what I'm feeling immediately, because I said that, immediately protocol goes in order, so that I'm not waiting. They take me into the back immediately. Again, my friend sat there for me with seven hours as I was being like had the intake, so I will forever be grateful to them. And yeah, and it was it was that without skipping too far ahead, but like that week that I was in the hospital was equally the most terrifying week of my life, but one of the greatest weeks of my life because it was terrifying if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 23:55

You were you were learning a lot about yourself. I mean, you you were experiencing what sounds like some manic episodes, and and again, the emotions are up and down, your logical brain cannot make sense of it because everything else that's happening around you is just it's fine, it's relatively fine. And there you are on the inside, and you can't figure it out. And it's the emotional yo-yo, the up and down, and it's overwhelming, it it overloads the nervous system. And even for the sheer fact that in the back of your mind, there it's almost like a secret, if you will, of say from from I wouldn't say hiding it, but just not sharing it with your parents. Um, I mean, for anyone, you were about 23, right? At that time. At the time, yeah. So about 23, and for most people, it's like that's the prime of your life. But I mean, decades ago, men in particular would get a uh a midlife crisis. But now we have the quarter life crisis because there's all this pressure to succeed, probably because of the the amount of internet information, seeing other people. There's so much that goes on to that that at 23, you're essentially having like a quarter life crisis, and again, chemically imbalanced because of all the the different things that are going on inside. And it it kind of brings me up to the to the next thing I want to talk about because it's we look at resilience. I think in many ways, resilience is important, but I think it's oversimplified. Um, there's this analogy that that gets used a lot. It's either the rubber band analogy that you can stretch, but it goes right back to its shape, or there's like a bouncy ball analogy. It's just you gotta bounce back. And I think of a bouncy ball being akin to to a childhood memory of you you take that sucker and bounce it anywhere. But then based upon the environment, it doesn't mean that it's actually going to bounce. So I I can just imagine if you're outside in the rain and you're standing in mud, is that ball going to bounce? No. But what happens when you're 23 years old and the ball is no longer bouncing? There's a level of fear that takes over to go, oh my god, I'm stuck this way forever. And it's really difficult for for certain people at any point in their life to understand, wait, the rain's gonna stop. All right, the ground is gonna solidify again, I'm just gonna pick the ball back up. But that's really, really hard because when the when the fight or flight takes over, it just runs amuck. Again, I just want to stress that because I I do believe that resilience is important, and I know all humans have a high capacity of resilience, but it's not as easy as just like, you know, just having some positive quotes and and you know, just eat getting lots of sleep because again, to be 23 and you're emotionally hijacked, it's extremely complicated. Now, that being said, you move forward in life, now you're at a point where you're like, oh yeah, the ball does keep bouncing. I just have to kind of ride out that storm. Because inside of you, what was happening, you basically had like this torrential downpour that was happening, you know, when when nothing necessarily externally was happening, but if you have a breakup, as trivial as it might seem, it's still a level of hurt that happened that you might not were able to discuss. You had a friend that passed away. That's a big that's a big thing. There is the the the exodus of of self from from college, and you're like, who the hell am I? Identity crisis happening. There's so much going on, and then you hit this moment where it's just like there's noise, there's noise, there's noise, all of a sudden it's like be and you're like, there's the panic that happened. But I think it's remarkable for you that that bee kind of went on, and there's nothing else happening, and there's just sheer panic, and you're like, I need help. Which I think is a really, really big thing that you had that courage to walk out there because there are plenty of people that we know statistically from from dying by suicide because of that tremendous level of fear. So having that moment just to walk out, that is a significant thing. And and and with that being said, I I think it's I get the sense that you moving from that situation, it gave you an understanding that there can be a purpose on how you can share messages, whether through filmmaking or even just sharing messages just by virtue of being here, that if you were lucky enough, fortunate enough to make it through that type of situation, then it's really important that you can sort of step back and go, all right, well, who else needs help? Because maybe not everyone else has that same level of courage to like open up and say, I'm struggling right now.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

A hundred percent. No, I I remember when I, you know, that year after that all happened, you know, I'm I'm back on medication, you know, in uh in therapy, and you know, kind of working on myself, going to the gym regularly and kind of focusing on eating and eating healthy and everything, but kind of opening up to some of my friends about it and them then opening up about what they've been going through. And it's kind of that like it's again, lots of people, but especially men in our society, are told to shut up and get over it, essentially. Um and I think being I that's now when I started realizing, like, oh, one talking about it makes me feel better because it's getting it off my chest. But two, it's like, oh, other people might need to hear this. So anytime that I can, in if I'm in some sort of like I don't know, this is a like when my sister got married, when I had a film at a film festival, I gave us we won an award, so I'm giving a speech. Not that the whole thing's about mental health and about, you know, woe is me, but I always try to put something in there as a way of like it really is a way of like I don't know in the crowd who's gonna need to hear something, right? This idea of like you're not alone type situation. And but I remember sitting in my basement, we had we had a a fun party at this house we were renting, and we were in the basement, and I remember like late at night, it's like 2 a.m. and just talking to like three of my college friends about like medication, what therapy is like, you know. Because the hardest part of therapy is going to the first time. That first time is absolutely horrific, it is so scary at first. Then you start talking and it's way better. But I I think kind of what you're getting at as well is like I realize that like I love filmmaking, I love storytelling, I love writing scripts. How can I put that into what I'm creating? Um and that was something that was like, you know, uh not that artists should be depressed or in a negative mindset to write good art, but sometimes when you're in those mindsets, incredible art can come from it because that's when you're most vulnerable, and vulnerability leads to honesty. And that to me was a kind of this like awakening of like, oh, I can really funnel this into like I can instead of it being jumped in my head, I can put it on paper and then put it on the screen.

SPEAKER_03 31:27

Before you had mentioned about when you were in the hospital and it being the sort of best and kind of worst week. And I was understanding that really as there was a no-exit strategy. We have to, we have to grow right now. But kind of touching upon what you were just mentioning, when you were in that hospital, you were seeing other people struggling with a variety of different issues. So I I could imagine, and you could speak to this, I could imagine that being there, it kind of gave you that that perspective of wow, there's there's all the I'm not alone. You're you're seeing all these other people that that might be struggling a lot more. And and all of a sudden you find yourself, I don't want to necessarily call it camaraderie, but there's something to go, oh, like we we're all kind of on the same wavelength right now, and that that it takes away a level of isolation. Uh, it it allows for a calmness to sort of settle in. Now, I know it's not that way for everyone that that ever has to be hospitalized, but I'm I'm gathering that that is kind of what you experience in that situation.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

No, absolutely. Uh, I mean, even before that, and to this day, I I am an incredibly uh personal is the wrong word. I love community. Like I'm a community-based person. I I need to see people, I love, I love my friends, I love interacting. It's that's just who I am. And so when I first went to the hospital, my my brother was the one who was the first one to there because he was in Brooklyn. And I remember just being like absolutely terrified. I don't think I've ever been so anxious. I like felt like I was gonna have like a heart attack, like it was that level of anxiety. And I remember I think we played Stratego or something just to get our minds off of you know whatever what was going on. But over the week, and it's funny, I can still see their faces, there are these like four or five people that we were all kind of like hanging out together, anywhere from there's one woman she was 18, and then up to like this you know guy in his early 40s. Anywhere from anxiety, depression, bipolar, this one guy uh had a meth addiction because uh he was schizophrenic and he lost his meds because of insurance, so he went back to meth, and it was this whole thing, and like and again, it's like you're with this group of people who, you know, as you know, maybe in like society you wouldn't normally interact with or or have the opportunity to interact with because different jobs, different areas where they live, and you kind of have to hold on to each other. I I remember I would I would have it was funny, I remember that having panic attacks in the middle of the day, I don't know why the middle of the day, but I would have panic attacks in the middle of the day, and I'd go from being more chatty to just being completely silent. And if I in my journal I wrote it down, whatever the young woman's name was, who was you know a few years younger than me, I remember her just like putting her hand on my shoulder and being like, Are you okay? And just that like simple touch of just like, you know, very friendly, like, are you there? Or are you okay? I'm here for you, and then um getting the and then going to get the nurses for me. Like that level, and we would do the same for each other, right? And it was it was that level of like, you know, giving me, you know, hope in this crazy, messed up world that people as individuals still care about each other. Again, I have no idea where these people are in their in their lives now, but having that group of people to interact with, you know, gave me hope, I guess. And and but yeah, it was like that week I was like I could barely keep food down. Like again, the anxiety had just completely taken over. Like I was just a walking panic attack. So I basically wasn't eating for the first few days I was there. Um they also don't allow caffeine because it's a drug, so I was also quote unquote detoxing from coffee, so that was a huge thing for me. It was like all these things, so like my body was just like so um tense, but being able to interact with others started to kind of ease that for me. And I think, like you said, that was the beginning of me learning. That was the beginning of my growth, right? It's like the idea of like once you hit rock bottom, the only way is up. That was by far the lowest I've ever been in my life, and it was kind of like a I can go up from here.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

The the empathetic bonding that was happening was tremendous because I just imagine all right, you you you don't say I have to go to the hospital, but you just stay with your roommates. It's a different thing when a roommate's like, Are you okay? versus someone else that you know is in a also troubling emotional situation going, Are you okay? As a person who grew up in an alcoholic household, I can't walk on the street randomly and go, so what was it like for you to have alcoholic parents? Not everyone has that experience, but I can go to Al-Anon and I don't have to even say anything. It's just hearing other people that sort of speak, it's almost like everyone sort of speaks the same language, so to speak. You're like, okay, there is a level of insecurity, there's a lack of control, there's a lot of anger, there's there are these common things you're like, okay, I could listen to people that have different experiences than what I've had. But there's just something about I grew up with an alcoholic, or my my brother is an alcoholic, or my ex-husband is an alcoholic. There's just something about hearing people like that going, oh, it I I have found going to Al-Anon being such a very calming and settling place, despite the circumstances of why anyone would go to Al-Anon. I just walk out going, okay, because in my own little world, I'm not interacting with many people that grew up the way that I did. So there's a part of me where I'm just around people going, all right, I'm just gonna give you this version of me, but it's a different version of me when I'm sitting with people that that could understand those that same emotional experience. So I I I just wanted to kind of share that in liken to to probably what you were feeling at that point in time.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

And thank you for sharing that. Um it's I I find it to be um incredibly beneficial to everyone involved to be open about in a safe space, of course, but be op being open about your life and and the ups and the downs. Um, I think if anything, becoming more open and discuss like being more open about it and discussing it more, I've become way more empathetic towards people in that regard. Again, no one's perfect, I'm not perfect, but you know, I'll have like a friend of mine, you know, sometimes can go into these like months-long depressive lulls. I don't hear from them, you know, I know they're okay, but like it's just they just kind of go off. And because I understand what that's like internally, I don't hold it against them, right? It's it's that understanding of like, hey, I know you got this thing going on, I'm here for I'm here for you, just reach out when you're ready, kind of thing. Um, and I think having people that you can, like you said, speak that same language, I think is so important. I mean, I I always find it to be kind of kind of fun to uh uh compare what what everyone's antidepressants are, like, oh what are you taking? Uh and but but it's like I don't know, it's it's it's you kind of open up and you start connecting with each other on that level, and then you you can use dark humor or whatever it is, but it's still that connection of like I am not alone. That is the biggest thing to know is you are not alone. I always tell my therapist that I'm like, is this normal? And he's like, I mean, yes and no, right? It's not like it's quote unquote normal, but you're not alone, right? It's com, it can be common.

SPEAKER_03 39:19

My dad had passed away when I was 18, and it was something I was very open to talk about. But as I got older in life and I started meeting other people that had lost parents, I found again a sort of a kinship, but to your effect about the the humor of it all, there was a a friend of mine that I have, and we make light of it calling it, Oh, you're part of the dead dad club. And anyone else that doesn't have like a dead dad, it's just like it feels like should I laugh at that? You're like, Yes. But you can't quite make a joke about the dead mom club, it just feels different, you know. Yeah, but it's you have to find a way to go, this is reality. And again, I said at the top of this, sometimes reality is a shit show. And I could sit here and try to put a pretty painting canvas over this, but behind that canvas is still a shit show. So it's like if you could just embrace it and go, All right, I'm embracing this thing, but I'm embracing it, but I'm also working on myself, I'm embracing this part of me, I'm putting in the work. I'm trying my best to be my best and grow every single day. Therefore, I don't have to regress. And along the way, I'm gonna do my best to try to help some other people, which makes me want to segue into the remnants of Nova. Yes. Art imitates life. So watching it today, and now having made up to this point in the conversation, I could see probably a lot of parallels within how you were writing that, directing that, editing it, and everything. Uh, but for the listeners, could you give just a brief synopsis of what the remnants of Nova is about? And then let's sort of peel back the layers, really, because this short film it sheds a huge light on mental health and sometimes how many of us can get caught up in our own little worlds, and we sometimes are sort of short-sighted to look at people that are around us and check on them. So brief synopsis on the remnants of Nova, uh, almost kind of like the what was the genesis behind creating that? Yeah, and and really what you've seen positively from that since releasing it.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

No, thank you. Um I'm glad you enjoyed it. It was between the initial idea to actually writing it and raising money and then making it, then being festivals was a four-year experience for 14 minutes, which is crazy. Uh filmmaking is not easy, I'll say that. Um But no, so uh the initial I guess the the surface uh synopsis, sorry, my cat is gonna jump through here very quickly. Thank you very much. Um the synopsis of Remnants of Nova is the uh a queer artist named Danny uh is gonna be performing her first one of her first big shows with a live audience. And the morning of the show, her romantic partner and the band's guitarist essentially comes to them and is like, hey, I'm I am not here, I'm not doing well. And to me, it set up this kind of dilemma of like, well, do I go after this thing I've been working on for years, or do I deal with this person who in the past has dealt these experiences already? And so the whole film takes place in one day leading up to the concert and uh leading up to Nova is one of the care her uh her partner, uh Nova attempts suicide. And it's kind of their rekindling and connection after the experience. Um to me, the I knew I wanted to make as someone who identifies as queer, as someone who has lots of queer friends, a lot of lesbian friends. I remember talking to my friends, and she said, I'm she's like, I'm always happy for the work. Sorry, she's an actor. She said, I'm always happy for the work, but I'm really tired of playing like heterosexual women with like husbands. And I was like, and that was like I was like, Oh, I'm gonna write you something. Now that friend wasn't in the film, but that was the that was the initial like I'm gonna write something. And one of my closest friends from college, Kimmy, um she is a singer-songwriter out in uh Tennessee, out in Nashville, and um, and she's a queer woman. And when initially I had this other idea, she was gonna write an original song for it, but that film fell fell through. And then we're calling her and telling her that, like, hey, sorry, film fell through, like, we're trying to figure something else out. In that moment, I was like, Do you have any ideas? Just kind of throwing that out. There and she says, actually, yes, this thing just happened, and she tells me this story where essentially um she has a pretty big following online, and all of a sudden she saw a notification that said someone is calling you on Instagram, and she's like, excuse me. She's like, That's that's weird, I didn't know that that's a thing. So she answers, and it was a fan who essentially was gonna take their own life and like just didn't know who else to call because Kimmy is very open about her mental health journey, especially for other uh lesbians and queer women, and it this person just seemed comfortable, and that was like their last resort was Kimmy. So Kimmy was up all night trying to figure out this where this person was. Again, Kimmy is a singer, she is a lovely human being, she is not a mental health professional. And so it was like six to eight hours, I forget exactly how long, of basically talking this person down, trying to figure out where they were to call the police or mental health providers to go and make sure this person's okay. Thankfully, that person was okay in the long run. And I'm glad Kimmy was there for to do that. But that's a traumatic experience. Like that, as someone who's not trained for that or or or educated in that, that's a lot to deal with. So that was the initial pitch to me was like, what if we did something along these lines? And I was like, okay, that's really interesting. What if we made it instead of a fan, a romantic relationship? And that's where the idea blossomed from. Again, lots of drafts. We wrote for like a year and a half to try to figure this thing out. Um, but to me it was always about um that dilemma that you have that no one's right and no one's wrong. We're all just trying to do the best that we can with what we have. But what do you do in these intense situations?

SPEAKER_03 45:42

Towards the beginning, you the you we as the viewer, we find Danny, uh sorry, we find Nova lying there in bed. And Danny is just getting ready. And when you realize quickly that that Nova is is in a bad place, and then when you hear Danny because she's caught up in her own world, being somewhat dismissive, as the viewer, you're like, no, don't do that, and you just see Nova being like, I just can't. She's like, just take just take your meds, just just go, just you'll be fine, you'll be fine, you'll be fine. And you can imagine for someone like Nova that sinking feeling, being like, you don't see me, you don't see me. So it's it works to how the tension is built in in the the short film because then Danny goes and she's too busy with everything that's going on before performing, phones ringing. And you as a viewer, you're like, oh man, no, don't do it, don't do it. So it's successful in regard to like to to provoking the the necessary emotions to go, damn, because Danny's just busy. She's you know, her her mic has to get checked, makeup, hair, the the new guitarist comes in, it's chaotic. And then and then it's like then she gets that that final like afterwards, and it's like then you then you sort of find yourself in Danny's shoes to go the the amount of guilt that you would feel. And and you could see from both parties that Danny didn't know, so there's no reason for Danny to feel terrible about herself, and there's a part of Nova who's just trying her best to really figure it out and still figure out how to communicate really what she needs. Um I do also love the fact that it's called that she's called Nova. Nice little time with the uh the the celestial part of Nova, but also the uh tribute to uh Northern Virginia and that one as well.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

I I didn't process that until like years after I wrote it, and someone was like, hey, do you know that that's I was like, oh my god, I didn't even think about that. It's just it's just uh the unconscious. That's amazing. Yeah. So the way that I remember describing this to the actors and to the you know, the the creative, everyone's creative on set, but the you know, the creative leads of the different departments, one of the things that I said was, in terms of like I don't want either one to be a villain or to be the good guy, right? Both have issues, both are dealing with what they're dealing with. To me, it's like the way I the analogy I gave of if I was in Danny's shoes, is what if the morning of the first day of this shoot, of this short film right now Nova, this thing that I spent two and a half years building to, that I raised over$30,000 over this like month-long campaign of emailing and stressful late nights and all this stuff. What if my wife came to me and she said, Hey, I'm gonna kill myself? Like, like, how do you deal with that? Because obviously you wanna you're gonna be there for the people that you love and that are closest in your life, but like how do you deal with all of a sudden, like, holy shit, there goes two years of planning, there goes two years of all this stuff. And I don't think that's inherently selfish to feel that way. I think that's just very human to be like, I just put all this time and energy and this is what I care about. So to me, it was like that was the dilemma, right? Like that's this moment that I feel like can happen sometimes in life where it's like, what do I choose here? Because both not that both are the wrong answer, but like it's you're putting a what is it, rock in a hard place, right? What do you what do you think?

SPEAKER_03 49:18

Life is complicated. Yeah, yeah, it's it's the real life being complicated of what would this actually look like for for some in your position? And it just shows the messiness and the difficulty of just being a human being who just trying to do something that you're working really hard towards. And I'd imagine Danny in real life is when she's standing there and seeing Nova who cannot make it, she's somewhat pushing Nova's feelings aside because she's just like, I just want you to be better. Even when she says, like, of all days, today has to be the day. That's that would seem like a terrible thing to say, right? But it's it feels more like a natural thing because you're just like, there's so much again. If it's if it's you, it's two years of build-up and build up and build up and build up. And as a viewer, we're seeing Danny for the first time, but we have to understand the process that she's been through to understand her words, are not just shallow and and callous, it's it's just her going, Oh man, because she knows she knows that's that that her partner is struggling with this. She's just going, can you can we just have a bit of convenience today? Like, I'll deal with your depression tomorrow. Yeah, you know, and it's going like, and it's just it's the the rock in a heart play, saying, Well, you know, I've seen this, I've seen depression from you before. You it's fine, it's gonna be fine, I'm gonna go. And then of that of that day, it's not fine. So it's it it really just goes to show the problematic nature of mental health. And sometimes we just have to do our best to be open to listen to someone with what with what they are saying.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Yeah, no, absolutely. It's um yeah, I I think it mental health is messy. I mean, even like we don't understand why meds work the way they do. Like we don't, like scientifically, it's like uh so I I think doing this film, it was never like we have the end-all answer of how to deal with this situation. That wasn't I mean it's also 14 minutes, so there's no way you can explain that. But it really was just to kind of give a look into this moment in this couple's life in the and individuals' lives. And and going back to it, it was a way for me to express everything that I'd gone through, right? And I the whole time I was writing and directing uh when I was writing and then when I was on the scene directing it, when Danny ends up and going seeing Nova in the hospital and you see the bandages on her wrists, um I was writing and directing it as if I was my family or my friend's perspective coming to see me, and I was like, what would that be like? Like, is that that sounds horrifying? Like I'm like I I I'm always incredibly grateful for that because I can't imagine how difficult that is for them. Um and so seeing again, seeing it from both sides of like you know, what they're both individually going through. Um yeah, everyone's messy. Like it's there's no black and white, everything's gray. That's how I think, at least.

SPEAKER_03 52:31

Was there a part while making while writing this and making it, was there a part of it that was therapeutic for you or even like very revelatory for you?

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Yeah, so it helped me normalize a lot of what I went through. Um, one of them being uh I have a friend of mine who's a nurse who's worked with in the ER, has worked with patients who have been on uh Suicide Watch. And I just straight up called her and was like, hey, walk me through logistically what happens. Because again, I would when I what happened to me, I'm so emotionally out of it that like I don't remember everything. So even things like that, like getting that insight of like, oh, that's what that's like, and then being able to write it and express some of the things that I was feeling, or then directing it and and uh the actor uh Gabrielle goes by Gabe who played Nova, um, and telling her, like, you're wearing a 40-pound backpack of bricks, like that was their whole that was a lot of their direction, was like you literally are wearing, and it's like you're just being sunk into the ground. That was so therapeutic on set personally, but then as I started going to film festivals, um, and you know, a lot at festivals there's always like the QA afterwards, the directors, the producers, or whoever comes up and answers questions. The film is personal, it comes from these very personal stories, so of course I'm talking about it. So all of a sudden I'm in a room, there was we had we were at the Philadelphia Film Festival, we're in a room with 300 people, and I'm straight up talking about suicidal ideation and depression and anxiety and therapy and all this stuff, and I'm the way I'm talking about it comes across very normal, but like just this is what it is, this is what I was experiencing. I wasn't ashamed or guilty or anything, and it really started to help normalize that, and I I can't think of any moment where someone was like, wow, thank you for doing that, but just being able to like I don't know show that and discuss it and normalize it, I think is so important. Um I did actually I did, I will say at one festival we had we were at the Beverly Hills Film Festival, which is actually a really fun one, but uh this older woman came to me and just said something along the lines of like thank you for being like so open. And that's it, that was all it was. But even just hearing that of just like, hey, thanks for being open about it. Great. She didn't say she liked the film, but that's okay. But but like to me, you know, that's just like the it was refreshing in that regard, and it definitely helped me process more and think about it differently. Again, I'm I'm a pretty naturally funny person. I like to use dark humor to quote unquote deal or cope with what I'm going through. And yes, the film was you know a serious film, but it it was a it was a fun experience. Like it was fun. We had a good time making it.

SPEAKER_03 55:15

I was just thinking about your your your moment in time at 23 and essentially having a quarter life crisis. It's it's a part of identity, of being terrified about who you are, how you can get through things, and learning more about yourself by going to a hospital, and learning more about yourself by by creating this this short film. And I think that's one of the coolest things that when it comes to filmmaking, filmmaking in many ways, it is an exploration of identity. And we could see that Danny is as the character, her identity was I'm here to succeed by any means necessary, and that is the goal. And and sometimes it's it's for someone like Danny, it's it's well, if I don't succeed in this, I might not ever get my big break. So who am I without the music? I understand that her character is a lot more complicated than that, but it's it is very interesting when we look at how different films really shed light for us as the viewer with how we even struggle with our own identity issues.

SPEAKER_00 56:37

Yeah, and that's the power of film. I mean, the one that comes to mind right now uh was the film Hamnet that came out last year, uh the Chloe Jiao film, and that film deals with grief. I'm sobbing in the movie theater. Like, I'm not like not even like being sarcastic. I am like absolutely sobbing watching that movie because it deals with grief, and that's something you go through. And film is this amazing art form because it combines so many art forms as a way of releasing this catharsis you have, whether it's anger, sadness, laughter, like if it's something that could be humorous, then that's great, and it's just that that light, the weight that comes off you. And but the idea of identity is super interesting because I I even look back at in college when I'm making my student films. I wasn't purposely writing him this way, but I'm like, oh wow, that's me. Like the character, my junior year film, the th it was a film about a man living on parole. I have not living on parole, and I wanted to talk about that world. And again, this character is very much not like me, but I look at that character and I'm like, oh, that guy is suicidal because he's in a rock and a hard place. He doesn't know what to do with his life. And then the next film, my thesis film, was this like apocalypse, you know, post-apocalyptic world. And it was a character that her mom dies and she has to go and like figure out her own life on her own. And it was like me dealing with one, the fear of my parents dying, which is a common, which is very natural fear, but also this idea of like I'm about to go on life on my own. I didn't write it that way, but it's like when you're writing, you can't help but put yourself into these characters, and like that's what makes them real, right? It's like you can't just write these, you know, AI slop characters that don't mean anything. You need real human emotion being poured into it.

SPEAKER_03 58:20

Well, working on this episode, one of the movies that I thought about was The Sound of Metal. And the reason why I even thought about that was I know the director of that film is is one of your sort of favorite directors. Yes. And I it's a phenomenal movie, and that was another movie that made me think about identity. And for anyone that hasn't seen it, simple synopsis is you have a drummer, and his whole life is being a drummer, and his he starts losing his hearing, and he's dealing with the fact that if he if he can't hear, he can't be a drummer, and he's in denial of it, and eventually he has to go to like I don't know what to exactly call it, but it's like uh a deaf community.

SPEAKER_01 59:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:12

To really for him to transition and accept this reality, and there's this really amazing line in there where uh he's talking with God, I wish I knew his name. Um I'm gonna blink on this one. But but the the drummer is talking with the uh the character that runs this deaf community, and he says something to the effect of you need to figure this out, and he points to his head, and not figure this out, pointing to his ears, because the the drummer his all he's trying to do is I need a solution for the hearing. He's like, the only solution you need to find is the one that's between between your eyes, between your ears. But that reality of identity of who am I without this, and ultimately I think he gets he gets a hearing aid, and then it doesn't even work. And then he just has to accept silence.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

Yeah. That film I it's still one of my favorites. I love that movie. And what I find so interesting with it is that one, the character, um Ruben, that's his name, that's the character, he's an he's an addict. He's sober, but he's an addict. So he has this kind of like very like he latches onto things and he just like goes all into it. And so, like you said, like when you have that identity rip and all of a sudden he's in this place he doesn't know. There when he first gets to the community, everyone's signing at the table, and they don't the I love that filmmaker doesn't put any subtitles because Ruben doesn't know what they're saying, so we don't know what they're saying. Uh and then as time goes, obviously, subtitles are added. And yeah, it's this, it's this it's it's a quiet, simple movie, but it's such a deep emotional story, and I think that's the power of filmmaking, and that that one honestly excuse me, that one ex inspired me a lot for Redance of Nova. Obviously, the plot is not even remotely the same, but just in terms of like this idea of like growth and finding yourself and even just tonally how it feels, and um and and like losing something. Yeah, losing something. And I think what's interesting, like you're saying with that line with the film, is that Ruben goes, he gets cochlear implants, which obviously there's nothing wrong with if you want cochlear implants, great, like that is your your choice. But he's not doing it for any other reason than he has to go and play the drums. It he didn't he didn't fix what his what's quote unquote wrong with his head, or or not wrong, but what's what's you know, this kind of this this wall he keeps hitting it hitting up against, right? And so I I love the end of the film where he's sitting in Paris after going and finding his ex-girlfriend and realizing he needs to move on, and he just takes out the implants and it's just silent. The film ends in silence. And what I love with that is that to me, that's not the director saying, Hey, you know, hearing aids are bad. That's not that's not what that says to me. All that's saying is to me is this character is finally accepting silence internally, and we're using the visual medium of film to represent that, right? This idea of like the turmoil and the the the anxiety and the ADA or uh the just the restless thoughts. He's finally just saying, I am here. Uh I forget the mantra, but there's like that mantra where like I am here, you know, idea, right? Like this is the reality. And so again, that's the beauty of that film and just film in general. Like, I look at like my favorite movies in life, and most of the time the characters are nothing like me at all. Like, I love the film Moonlight, I'm obsessed with that movie Moonlight because it's such an intimate look at a specific person's life. Again, so opposite of anything I've had to deal with in my life. But that's the beauty of filmmaking, is you get to relate and empathize with people all over the world who are completely different from you.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:04

We've talked a lot about anxiety throughout this episode so far, and uh earlier in your life, the level of anxiety you were dealing with was more crippling. And I think there's something very interesting about how with work, with growth, therapy, etc., all the above, that we can get older in life, and anxiety actually becomes something that is a fuel for us with properly managed. And I I was thinking about the the famous line from the movie Wall Street, where uh the the capitalist, you know, deviant Gordon Gecko says, greed, for lack of better word, is good. I like the idea that anxiety, for lack of a better word, is good as long as it's managed. Because the anxiety managed, we need it. Because it lights a fire for us to go, I have to get this done. For you to make a short film, there's a tremendous level of anxiety, but you're managing it in a way where you're like, it's driving you. It's not it's driving you forward, it's not driving you into the ground. Me working on an episode, I have a ton of anxiety, but it's a positive use of my anxiety. It's not driving me down, but it's driving me forward. So, where do you see yourself now in your life with how you're you're working with anxiety compared to what it was like at you at 23 with your anxiety?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:36

Yeah, no, great question. Uh, and 100% I agree. I think I've always liked to describe one of my way as I describe this with my uh one of my therapists was that before I was a you know, I was a ship captain, but the anxiety was the entire ship, right? Like, and it's just I'm just doing what I can trying to you know spin the wheel with the sails and everything, but nothing's happening. Um but now the anxiety is the parrot on my shoulder. It doesn't shut up, it's always there, it's never going away, and it's just always talking to me, but I'm no longer, it's no longer directing my life. And I think I mean anxiety uh as a science history nerd, like I think anxiety itself is a fascinating emotion. It literally kept us alive. It's like when we were the majority of human history, we were running around in like you know, in Africa hunting, dealing with like saber two tigers and crazy animals that were trying to eat us. So the anxiety literally kept us alive because it can't become um you become hyper-aware, your adrenaline spikes. Now, obviously, in the 21st century in America, it's kind of we don't, you know, the amount of times I've actually felt like my life was in danger is very rare, but the feeling is still there. So learning to use it to your advantage, um I think is the best way you can deal with it, or like funneling. Into something, like you said, funneling into a creative uh task or you know, or even just processing like you know, one of the like I mentioned before, like many people, I had a lot of anxiety of my parents dying. I'm not exactly sure where it came from, other than just life and aging and everything. And I could have let that just sit and just become this like anxious wreck. But instead I remember having the conscious decision of okay, or not a conscious decision, the conscious conversation of like, my acceptance, my parents will die one day. That is not a fun thing to say, but my parents will die one day because everybody dies. That's a fact. What do I do with that? I could sit around and just be like, uh, that's scary and sad and do nothing about it. What I like to do is I specifically I talk to my parents at least once a week. I we my wife and I go visit them, they come visit us. Like I keep, I keep, and they're all the way in North Carolina, like they're far. But we keep that relationship going because to me, I'm like, why just sit in this anxiety? Why sit in just this fear? Because it that the reality isn't going away. So how do I make the best of my time here?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:08

It's using that anxiety and morphing it into a way where there's a purpose, and that purpose just allows for you to be present. That's the tricky thing with anxiety because anxiety is built upon what has happened and what we worry is going to happen. And that's where all of us get stuck in the anxiety. But when your anxiety can be present, again, when I'm working on an episode, I'm extremely anxious, but it's what's happening right now, anxiety. Get the questions, do the research, do the focus, focus, focus, focus. You the time consuming when it comes to working on a set, you have to be you have to be very anxious to get things done in a timely manner because time is money in the film business. But I love what you said, even about your parents. It's about all right, well, why be anxious about this? Let me just channel it to be present. Therefore, if you're with them, you're just treating it as if it's the last day.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:03

And I think it's a beautiful really way to really treat many aspects of life to go, it's gonna happen invariably. I can worry about it and it's still gonna happen. Or I can call them up and go, I love you. I can I can go visit them and go, God, I'm so happy. I can I can try to like take snapshot moments with my eyes and hopefully it locks into my brain that if I'm lucky enough that I can I can recall this distinct memory 20 years from now. Like if I'm if I'm lucky enough, I can do that. So again, it's it's a beautiful way that I think a lot of us need to figure out more healthier ways to look at anxiety because we hear so much about it. It sort of feeds this dragon, so to speak, and then the and then we're just scared of the dragon, and all we do is avoid the dragon as opposed to like, well, how can I ride this sucker? You know, how can I be more of a Targaryen, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:57

Yeah, literally. There are times where you, like you said, you have to just ride it through, and and you know, there's times where I'll go if I'm feeling like a lot of anxiety panic coming on, I'll go and look in the mirror and I look at myself and I literally say, like, this will pass. Like I say, I will say that out loud, like this is going to pass. This is temporary. And yeah, it's that like again uh I I've joked before that the the only bad part, a bad part, but the only uh annoying part of being more aware of your mental health is the realization that you're gonna still have bad days. Like it's like a funny thing, it's a funny state of, but like you're like, oh wow, okay, this isn't fully going away. Obviously, you can improve your life, right? Like, I'm no longer uh, you know, suicidal and I've I'm much more content. I don't have this anxiety that I used to have, but there's still plenty of days where I feel depressed or I get anxious or sad or you know, whatever it is, it's a very human thing. So understanding like what is too much and what is the healthy amount.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:58

Yeah. For years I was waiting for a movie like Epiphany that would just happen, and then all of a sudden everything would change, all of a sudden I'm just calm and cool and confident. No, I'm better because I do a lot of work. But there are certain days where I wake up and I'm like, oh man, I don't remember going to bed feeling this terrible. And then I have to go through a morning process of speaking something positively in my mind in repetition for 30 minutes to an hour, or I'm just breathing, or just reminding myself, like, this is gonna pass. Even panic attacks, like I learned early on, because I've had a bunch of panic attacks in my life, that like a panic attack is like a wave in the ocean. If I fight the wave, I'm going under. Whereas if I accept the wave and I ride the wave, well, it's just most likely gonna crash me on the shore, but I'm gonna learn something on the ride there. So there's two ways to handle that panic, but it's it's again when our emotional brain gets overstimulated and we go, and we we're not looking in the mirror to go, nothing's happening. I'm not gonna fall off this earth, this will pass. And you just breathe and get through it and go, Alright, and then ask yourself, why'd that happen?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:14

And what can I do next time?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:16

Yeah, how can you work through it? I I had a one of my therapists a couple years ago. She said, um, she's like, give yourself like what you're saying, she said, give yourself permission, put a timer and put the timer on, say, for 30 minutes. And she said, feel as terrible as you can. Like feel every single like all the depression, anxiety, panic, whatever is just sit and wallow in it, right? Just really just sink and just feel it. Don't fight it, just like feel awful. Timer goes off. Get up, wash your face, drink some water, whatever it is, and keep moving.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:45

So like you give your body, because that's one of the reasons why, again, especially in men, why anger becomes such a uh a go-to emotion, is because we're told don't be sad, don't be weak, don't be, you know, don't be anxious, don't be worried, like none of those feelings. And so when you hold all that back, you feel terrible, and that can make you angry. And I've gotten that way, I get angry sometimes when you the you're too depressed or whatever it is. And so by accepting it and like genuinely sinking into that feeling, it sucks. That 30 minutes is not fun, it is not a good time, but it like afterwards you feel so much better. Again, it's not perfect, it never it's not, but it it it you're not gonna be like this like tense ball that like is gonna explode at some point.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:31

You learn a lot about yourself. I there was one time, like I said, I've had so many panic attacks. I just learned, I'm like, all right, here it comes because I know it's it's repressed, and my mind is trying to do something with those those intense feelings, so it's gotta go somewhere. So I feel it coming up, I go, all right, let me hunker down. I was at Disneyland of all places, and one came over. I was like, oh man.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:57

And I remember I walked into a little aid station, and I'm just like calm as can be. I was like, Oh, I'm having a really bad panic attack. I need to go lie down. The lady's like confused because I don't look like I'm having a panic attack. And I went, I lied down. I remember calling my uncle, and he was just talking me through it to your effect. He's like, Alright, now it's gonna happen. You're gonna take three breaths, you're gonna hang up and get up and walk out.

unknown 1:13:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:21

And I remember just like and then third one going, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:27

Still shaky. I wasn't like great, but like I was fine enough to go, like, alright, I'm human.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:34

Yeah, the sense of impending doom is gone.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:37

I'm one of eight billion, like on this tiny little rock floating in nothing, like it's fine, you know. So it's it's sometimes getting the um the fear-based brain that is running away from a saber-tooth tiger to go, we're okay. There's no imminent danger.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:54

We're good. I'm at Disneyland, it's okay. All is well.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:58

Um, James, let me get one last for one last question for you before we get you out of here. So you being a uh a filmmaker, screenwriter, and now a business owner of edits, etc. How to be successful in business without killing yourself? If you were meeting with someone today and they were about to start their own business, what level of experience, of advice, of steps would you give? I know it's not just one thing, but what is what is the thing you would tell someone about what it means to succeed without necessarily feeling that they are going to sink into the abyss when things don't go well or the pressure gets too big?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:51

Yeah, I mean that's a question I'm still honestly figuring out myself as well. But I think the biggest thing for me is communication. I I've always felt that way. Um having people in your corner, whether it's you know, not the whole company, but whether a couple people maybe who you very much trust, or you know, outside your friends, your family, your spouse, whoever it is, being able to have a place to vent and to get all this emotion out and to realize that you are not alone in these feelings. Because if I've learned anything in the past two years or running this company, is that forget all my other mental health struggles and issues I've dealt with, starting a business is fucking hard. Like it is so hard. And uh it's like, you know, because you're I went to film school, I didn't go to business school, so all of a sudden I'm looking at like like what are these accounting, like what like you know, CRMs, like all these things that I'm like, what am I looking at right now? And so I think the I don't know how to honestly I don't even know how to answer this. It's communication, trusting the process, knowing it's not gonna be perfect. I I've had client experiences that were terrible. I I you know I had a client on the phone directly telling me to fuck off. I didn't know how to deal with that situation. I I I'm not a confrontational person, I didn't had no idea how to handle that. And I was anxious for a couple days after that because I just that affected me. And it was my wife who uh essentially she was like, you know, don't let this one person, you know, ruin this whole thing you've created, right? And it was this one small project, and it's that again that realization of like this will pass, like it it is growth, it is part of the process. And I've also connected with a number of other entrepreneurs, business owners in totally different sectors of the industry. Um like I work with a business coach, um Marianna, and and you know, she's been such a great way of like opening my eyes to like what is the normal process of starting a business outside of my personal story, if that makes sense. And so kind of knowing you're not alone and again having these connections, I think is important. And also humor, like the whole like how does this eat a business without killing yourself? Like to me, that's like again, it right place, right people, but like having that kind of like humor back and forth to joke about stuff, it's great. Like my my friends, my friend who passed away, my closest friends to this day we still joke about it. Again, it is very much only like the four of us can say this stuff. Other people you're like, hang on a second, like only we can say that. But again, going into it with as much openness in general.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:39

There's humility in in just understanding like what's the reality of something and well, can we laugh at something? And I also love that you you had commented on trusting the process, which I think is so key because we look at I'm air quoting from an audio standpoint because success. Success is the process. Yeah, it's obviously people need to make money, we need an outcome, but the process is truly where the success happens. If you are successful in your process, then whatever happens in the outcome will be positive, regardless.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:18

Yeah, one of my mantras is uh eaters eat eaters. One of my mantras is leaders eat last. So the way that I run my company is it is a collective base, so I am technically the only employee on a legal perspective. Everybody but everybody I hire is a like a 1099 contractor. We have over 35 members of the collective now, editors, sound designers, colorists, animation VFX. And again, these are pe collaborators I've met from past jobs, people I know from college, uh, people I've met through just running this company. And to me, success is if my team is paid fairly, isn't overworked, and is treated with respect by the client, that's success. Because I've been on the other end of that where you're treated like crap by a client from some some producer who doesn't care about you. You're just a moneymaker to them. And so to me, it's like I wanted to try to run a company the best that I can that encourages collaboration and community and kindness. Like I always literally kindness is in like my like the three main culture archetypes of the company. Like, genuinely, like, not just like, oh, let's be nice to each other, corporate, like genuinely, like I don't which no one has dealt with it, but I would not abide by people just being blatantly rude or mean. Like, that is not like I I want that community that we have.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:46

And I think we accidentally stumbled upon an expanded way of the saying, eaters will eat, but leaders eat last. Which is a great differentiation between being a leader and someone who's just only going to eat. I'm I'm of the same mindset of I'd rather have everyone eat and I'll and I'd rather eat last because that just that just feels better to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:09

I I would rather make less money up front and have people that trust me, that like working with me, that want to collaborate with me and stick with me and support the company, and then in the long run have these collaborators that want to stay with me versus taking as much money away from them and just burning people out, and then they hate me. That sounds awful. Like, no thank you. So it's a longer process to in terms of financially financial success, it's a longer process to get there. But I like I said, I trust the process. It it's I believe it's gonna be better in terms of uh the company culture, in terms of my own sanity and well-being. Um yeah, so that's kind of my thought process on how I run this.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:53

Last uh last movie reference for me uh from Remember the Titans. Attitude reflects leadership. And that's exactly what you're showing right now. Yeah. Um attitude, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:07

It's hey, here we go. This ties us all the way back to the beginning. Remember the Titans takes place at TC Williams High School, which was down the road from where I grew up. There is one scene when Sunshine, whatever that character's real name is, shows up to camp, and the coaches say, Well, we already got a quarterback, but you could go to Langley or Anandale.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:26

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:27

They say Anandale. So the fact that that Anandale's in there, like that was it, we would always cheer my family whenever we heard that. Again, that's our little 10 minute or 15 minutes of fame as an Anandale, Anandaleite, Anandalian, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:41

Oh you you put a bow on this episode, uh, James. Dude, thank you so much for the amazing, insightful, fantastic conversation. James, this is this was a treat. Thank you so much, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:57

No, thank you. I I love this experience. Um, thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about my life and my story, and hopefully some people were able to connect with it.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:06

Absolutely. And and please, uh I want to have you back on the show on another day if we can if we can do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:11

Love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:12

Let's do it. Cool. All right, man. And and with that being said, uh, this is the Butterfly of Y. I'm your host, Jamie Whittle. And my only goal with this show is to leave the world a little bit better than I found it. So please, let's share that together. I'll see you on the next episode. Peace.