Season 1, Episode 2 | An Elected Monarch? Creating the American Presidency

An Elected Monarch? Creating the American Presidency. 

Have you ever wondered how the Founding Fathers managed to create a powerful executive branch without sliding into dictatorship? 

In this episode of This Constitution, host Savannah Eccles Johnston sits down with Greg Jackson, a professor of national security studies at Utah Valley University and the host of the podcast History That Doesn't Suck. Together, they dive into the fascinating history and theory behind the creation of the American presidency. 

They tackle the tricky balance between a republican government and the need for a strong executive who can act decisively in a crisis—a challenge they call the "Hannibal dilemma." The conversation touches on Thomas Jefferson’s time as governor, the flaws of the Articles of Confederation, and the aftermath of Shays' Rebellion. By the end, they emphasize how crucial a solid executive branch is within a constitutional framework to handle emergencies and keep order. 

In This Episode: 

●      (01:19) The Hannibal dilemma

●      (02:10) Constitutional dictatorship

●      (02:54) The risks of power

●      (04:01) Theoretical foundations

●      (04:37) Montesquieu's separation of powers

●      (05:50) John Locke's influence

●      (08:02) State constitutions post-revolution

●      (09:22) Public sentiment towards executives

●      (09:39) Key features of state constitutions

●      (10:26) Outlier states: Pennsylvania and New York

●      (12:09) Lessons from state experiences

●      (13:14) Thomas Jefferson's experience in Virginia

●      (13:26) Jefferson's governance challenges

●      (14:21) Investigating Jefferson's conduct

●      (15:19) Fear of executive power

●      (15:41) Jefferson's mixed feelings on the Constitution

●      (16:17) Constitutional powers vs. crisis management

●      (17:15) Jefferson's legacy

●      (17:59) States vs. national government

●      (18:18) Articles of Confederation overview

●      (19:26) Independence of states

●      (20:53) Weaknesses of the Articles

●      (22:10) Challenges of taxation

●      (24:21) Debt and economic issues

●      (25:10) George Washington's leadership

●      (26:03) Military limitations of the Articles

●      (26:27) Shays' Rebellion and constitutional reform

●      (26:52) The creation of the U.S. Constitution

●      (27:00) Hamilton's experience

●      (27:44) Crisis government

●      (29:43) Constitutional context of rebellion

Transcript

Various Voices [00:00:04]:

We the people. We the people. We the people do ordain and establish this constitution for the United States of America.

Matthew Brogdon [00:00:15]:

The constitution isn't just a historical document. It's a blueprint for American self government that shapes our past, guides our present, and defines the future of our country.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:00:27]:

In every episode of this Constitution, we dive into the decisions, debates, and stories that are still unfolding at the center of American civic life.

Welcome to This Constitution. My name is Savannah Eccles Johnston, and our guest today is Greg Jackson. Say hi, Greg.

Greg Jackson [00:00:52]:

Hello. Pleasure to be here.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:00:54]:

Greg is a professor of national security studies at Utah Valley University. He has a PhD in history, and he is best known for his most excellent podcast, history. That doesn't suck. And we're very lucky to have him with us here today.

Greg Jackson [00:01:07]:

I don't know if you're very lucky, but I'm happy to be here.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:01:09]:

So we are going to be speaking about the iterations leading up to the republican executive or the creation of the american presidency today. But first, let's back up just a moment and speak about what I call the Hannibal dilemma. This is an age old problem, and it's just this. How do you simultaneously maintain republican systems, a representative democracy with deliberative capacities, such as a senate, with an individual who can respond to a crisis. That is, an executive who can handle a crisis and can embody those key characteristics that allows him or her to do so. Decision, speech, dispatch, decision making ability. This is not easy.

Greg Jackson [00:01:54]:

No, it is not.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:01:55]:

No. And the Romans had a system by which they attempted to handle this dilemma or solve for it. It was called the constitutional dictatorship.

Greg Jackson [00:02:07]:

Yes.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:02:07]:

So what does it look like?

Greg Jackson [00:02:10]:

Basically, I mean, very broad strokes. Basically we're a republic until it's an emergency, and then we're just going to super hook this one guy up with all the powers. He's going to do his thing. He's going to make everything all right. So then you have a fast acting executive. Right. It's, we can address the problem, and then when it's done and the power's back over, everything's good, we return to republican ness. That didn't exactly work out, though. At some point for Rome as we know it turns into an empire. Right. So again, it gets to this dilemma that you see set up. How do you actually maintain that in perpetuity? That's a hard thing to do because once you hand that sort of power over to someone. Yeah, people like power. I'm just dropping really profound new truths that never dawned on anyone before this moment.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:02:54]:

This is great. But also, this is coupled with serious problems inherent in a democracy, which is that democracies are liable to crises, and particularly civil crises, which is yet another reason for an executive to step forward and take more permanent power, which, in the end is kind of how the transition happens. Two key features of this constitutional dictatorship. And the first is that it was legal. This is a legal system, transfer of power. And the second, you had to transfer power because they could not see the two things coexisting. That is really key for our story. You had to have either a senate or a dictator. You couldn't have both. And it's that switching back and forth that ultimately gets them in trouble. A millennium and a half forward, and you have the iterative creation of the republican executive. Here in the United States. It is. I think we maybe agree on this. Our most profound contribution to political thought is the republican executive. Or at least that's my opinion.

Greg Jackson [00:03:57]:

I mean, it's. I'm not going to disagree with it. How's that?

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:04:00]:

Good. Yeah, I like it when people don't disagree with me.

Greg Jackson [00:04:03]:

I can't promise to keep doing that, but we're off to a great start.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:04:06]:

Good. So it's a combination of two things. Here you have theories coming across the Atlantic and this practical lived reality in the colonies and then in the states, both under the state constitutions, which are written at the beginning of the Revolutionary War, all the way up until 1787, and under the articles of Confederation, what Akhil Amar calls USA 1.0, which is an epic failure.

Greg Jackson [00:04:32]:

Absolutely.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:04:33]:

So, first, theories. Who are some of the theorists we should know?

Greg Jackson [00:04:36]:

Bail de Montesquieu is a name that you gotta know. French guy, but he's thinking deeply about the British, and he doesn't really interpret it. He doesn't interpret the british constitution. They love to say they have a constitution the way the brits do, but his interpretation is loved by the colonists, who then kind of take his interpretation. And that's part of what starts to sow the discord, the misunderstanding between London and the colonies, basically, the separation of powers. That's his. Well, it's one of his big contributions. The idea that the executive, the judiciary and the legislature should all be divided up. That sounds so bread and butter to us because it is so deeply american now. But that had to be a novel idea at one point. And he's the guy.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:05:20]:

You have a millennium and a half of experience of power concentrated in one hand.

Greg Jackson [00:05:24]:

Exactly.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:05:25]:

Because that's what kept you alive. That's what kept you safe, was a king can keep you safe. He might not keep you free, but he can't keep you safe. That's the trade off. So it's a separation of powers and a terribly radical idea, that power should be separated and given to different groups of people for the protection of the people. Another radical idea, that people have inherent rights. So then we jump across to John Locke. What do we need to know about this guy?

Greg Jackson [00:05:50]:

Life, liberty, property. He's almost quoted in the Declaration of Independence. And, I mean, what you just said, I mean, the idea that we have these natural rights in the enlightenment itself, even if I can get really broad, a lot of the ideas that we take for granted today are first coming out. They seem radical. So today we talk about the value of human life, human rights, civil rights, and these are things that we just assume people have or that they should have. Hit pause for a minute and realize that when we're talking about the 17 hundreds, the coming forth of the United States, the Enlightenment, this is when people are making these radical ideas, making these radical suggestions, that human life matters. That is novel.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:06:32]:

I tell my students this all the time. It is so difficult to imagine a world prior to the individual right, but we can only think of ourselves as individuals and as rights bearing individuals, rights bearing creatures. That was not the reality. Even during the roman times. There was no individual as we would imagine it today. So.

Greg Jackson [00:06:54]:

But it's so deeply stamped in the DNA of America that we. I think we fail frequently when we, if we don't understand our history to grasp that that's the experience of the vast majority of humanity.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:07:06]:

Yes. Right. Okay, so we have Montesquieu. Yes, we have John Locke. And one other thing we should probably say about John Locke is John Locke expands upon Montesquieu's theory of separation of powers. He brings in the federative power, which is that fourth political power. It's the power to deal with other countries. And he says, this is a unique and distinct power, but it ought to be folded into the executive. So the executive is actually two parts. It's the administrative power, and it's that federative power, the power to deal with other countries, that's really important. By the time we get to article two of the US Constitution, which that federative power component is absent from both the articles of confederation and the state constitutions. So we have the theories.

Greg Jackson [00:07:50]:

Yes.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:07:51]:

Then it jumps across the Atlantic, and Americans kind of skim read this stuff. No American is deeply reading John Locke, but we're kind of reading a bastardized John Locke, if you will.

Greg Jackson [00:08:01]:

Sure.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:08:02]:

So the lived experiences we have broken off from the British. It's 1776. We're in the midst of revolutionary war.

Greg Jackson [00:08:09]:

Yes.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:08:10]:

Now each of the states are going to, or at least eleven of the 13 are going to redo their state constitutions. In fact, one of them will redo it twice, and that's South Carolina. Only two will refuse to do this. That's Rhode island and Connecticut. Rhode island, because it was the worst state during this period, always dragging their feet. Right? Yes. And I can say that because I once worked for the senator from Rhode island, which is now a very nice state, but back in the day was the worst. So what did these state constitutions look like?

Greg Jackson [00:08:43]:

Well, broadly, a common theme was an extremely weak executive. Part of the experience that's brought the colonials to the point of revolution is their perception that power centralized held in the hands of King George III. And when I say centralized, I mean the british monarchy was already a weaker monarchy compared to others out there. But this is the colonials perspective, that concentrated centralized power is very dangerous. That's what's creating their problems. So what are we going to do? We're going to keep the executive from being terribly strong. We're going to make them very incapable.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:09:22]:

So it's safe to say that during this period, Americans are not in love with the executive. They have a deep reaction.

Greg Jackson [00:09:28]:

Correct. Even when we get to the constitution. Not to jump ahead, but it's all about the legislative. I mean, look at the articles of the US Constitution. What's article one versus article two?

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:09:38]:

Right. But we will learn to fall back in love with executive power just a little bit, and these experiences will teach us to do so. So a couple, a couple more things about these state constitutions. They're going to share some key features. The most important you've just pointed out, but they all do have separation of powers. They're going to have a legislature, an executive, and a judiciary. They will be independent of each other, though not co equal. I think that's an absolute key. That won't come until 1787. This idea of co equal branches with defensive weapons to use against each other in case of encroachment, the checks and.

Greg Jackson [00:10:10]:

Balances, as we put it.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:10:11]:

Right. That's not going to come till later. So you have these really kind of debased executives and judiciaries, and in fact, one state, Pennsylvania, is an outlier. They've just eradicated their executive altogether.

Greg Jackson [00:10:26]:

Who needs that, right?

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:10:27]:

Yeah. And said, Congress, you can do it. We don't even need an upper house because Pennsylvania will never be ruled by an aristocracy. So they got rid of the upper house and gave all executive function and all legislative function to the lower house.

Greg Jackson [00:10:38]:

Then Franklin loved himself a single House legislature. No.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:10:41]:

So Pennsylvania being weird, there is an outlier here, another outlier on the opposite extreme, and that is New York. This is so important. New York has a powerful executive and, okay, put this in context. By powerful executive, they mean a president, or, sorry, a governor who serves three year terms. Whoa.

Greg Jackson [00:11:05]:

Crazy.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:11:05]:

Can be re elected on an ongoing basis.

Greg Jackson [00:11:09]:

Well, let's just contrast that real quick. Virginia, one year term, can only be elected for a second term without sitting out for another four years before you could ever be elected again.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:11:20]:

Right.

Greg Jackson [00:11:20]:

So that is, that's quite a contrast.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:11:22]:

Huge. And elected by the people of New York and not by the state legislature.

Greg Jackson [00:11:28]:

Which is also crazy for the era. This is wildly crazy.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:11:32]:

What you're doing in the eyes of everyone else is laying open New York to the threat of demagoguery and to dictatorship.

Greg Jackson [00:11:39]:

This is, again, to things that are forgotten and totally overlooked these days. The founders were just as terrified of direct democracy as they were of the tyranny that they saw in King George. So representative government. Yeah, they're all about it, but that's why they're always talking about republic, republic, republic. To them, there was the sweet spot. They didn't want to, if it was a temperature, if you could think of that way. They didn't want to freeze to death. They didn't want to burn to death. There's a nice, sweet Goldilocks middle space. That was the representative form.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:12:08]:

Right. But we do kind of trial with it a little bit during this critical period where we get very whiggish, we get very anti executive, lots of legislative powers, and really runaway legislatures, where, again, we learned, one, oh, my goodness, we need an executive. And two, turns out the people can be just as dictatorial as a dictator can. So these are the two lessons we're learning during this period. Okay, so, New York, he also has key crisis powers. The New York governor has powers over the state militia. That's something that no other state has granted their governor, even if they have a governor, unlike Pennsylvania.

Greg Jackson [00:12:47]:

Yeah.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:12:48]:

So military powers, a veto power. That's significant. And the power to call in secession, uh, their state legislature, and to tell them to get out of session, basically go home. We're sick of you.

Greg Jackson [00:13:00]:

Yeah. This is way stronger leaps and bounds.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:13:04]:

So this reminds you of the royal governors?

Greg Jackson [00:13:06]:

Yeah.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:13:06]:

Much more than it does anything else during this era. Now, let's contrast that with Virginia.

Greg Jackson [00:13:11]:

Let's do it.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:13:12]:

What is Thomas Jefferson's experience, like in.

Greg Jackson [00:13:14]:

Virginia, this is where our boy Tommy learns that maybe possibly the executive actually needs a little bit of power. He is one of the foremost leaders in this whole. Yeah, down with the executive. Right? He's very much. I mean, Jefferson's known as Mister Liberty, if you will. Right. But some of that gets a little caricaturized, especially when we get later down the road. I'll hold myself back from doing that. But at this point, and he's elected governor, which he doesn't want to be. He's come back from Congress. He's back in the Virginia legislature itself. And to contrast it, as you pointed out, with New York, it's the Virginia legislature that says, hey, Tom, we want you to be the governor. He's like, ugh, that sounds terrible. There's a war going on. I have zero military experience. Also, I hate governors, but they elect him anyway, so he's in first term. It's okay. Uh, second term is where crap really hits the fan, when a gentleman by the name of Benedict Arnold shows up and just burns through large parts of the state, raids. Tom comes under serious scrutiny for this. Now, he. He deserves it. Okay? This was not his moment of shining anything. He totally dropped the ball. But even as he dropped the ball, the legislature decides to investigate him. So here's the great Thomas Jefferson we think about, right? And he's being investigated for his poor conduct as governor. They conclude that, one, he wasn't to blame. I think historians kind of disagree with that a little bit, but they look at their own structure of the governor and say, we didn't give him any power. He can't really do anything. So, yes, he should have called upon the militia in this emergency situation. Virginia actually does talk a little bit about kind of a setting up a dictator esque moment. But again, Tom, he never wants to invoke those powers. Right? He's deathly afraid to do it. He should have and he didn't. But they look at their structure and go, okay, the executive can hardly do anything. All right, this isn't Tom's fault. We actually need to give a little bit more power to the executive.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:15:19]:

By the way, this is yet another reason, among the many reasons, why I'm so glad that Thomas Jefferson was not at the constitutional convention, because of his ongoing fear, his lack of willingness to learn from crisis as a governor relative to executive power. And we do get a powerful executive out of the convention. Over his dead body.

Greg Jackson [00:15:41]:

Yes. Have you read some of his letters describing his thoughts as he reads the constitution? He's over in France, and it's getting mailed to him. And, yeah, he was kind of like a very. Okay, guys, I guess we can maybe try this almost verbatim quote. I recall he says there are many good articles and many bad articles. So he sees that as a super mixed bag. He's not excited about it. He's not like, he's not framing himself as anti. I don't want to overstate it, but, yeah, he does not read the constitution. Go, wow, what a work of brilliance. He's like, this has problems.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:16:17]:

And one of the big concerns is the executive.

Greg Jackson [00:16:19]:

Yes.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:16:19]:

Which is interesting, because by the time Thomas Jefferson becomes president, he will simultaneously deny that the executive has lots of constitutional powers and then willingly and openly, in his own mind, disregard the constitution to handle crises, because he still doesn't understand that those things have to be the same.

Greg Jackson [00:16:39]:

I mean, beyond crises, things he likes, you know, making that little land purchase from France. He has a letter to Madison where he's basically like, we should just not talk about the constitutional nature, or lack thereof, in my super making this happen.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:16:57]:

Which is yet another example of him not learning the lesson of this era, which is you need a strong executive. Someone's got to be able to handle a crisis, and it needs to be constitutional. That's key. It cannot be illegal or you undermine the very structure of the document.

Greg Jackson [00:17:12]:

Yep.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:17:12]:

And you find yourself back in Rome.

Greg Jackson [00:17:14]:

Yes, you do.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:17:15]:

So enough Jefferson bashing from me. I have to pull myself in or rein myself in.

Greg Jackson [00:17:22]:

I very much appreciate. We'll give a little bit of love to Tom to call it a self evident truth. To return to our point earlier, a self evident truth that all men are created equal. And again, so many problematic things with Thomas Jefferson and that sentence. Yet he has contributed one of the greatest sentences ever written in the english language.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:17:43]:

So that. And what is it? The Virginia freedom of religion laws. He can have that, too.

Greg Jackson [00:17:49]:

He can have that, too. We're basically naming the things that he put on his epitaph. I mean, we'll just throw the university in there. We're done.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:17:55]:

So even he knew what he was going to do.

Greg Jackson [00:17:56]:

Yeah, he knew he didn't put president on his own tombstone. It was fine.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:17:59]:

That was okay. We need to look bigger than the states now.

Greg Jackson [00:18:04]:

Yes, we do.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:18:05]:

So first, the states are going to experience some disasters, but so is the national government, and it's not going to be able to help. So our first form of government, USA 1.0, is the articles confederation. Give me an outline of the articles.

Greg Jackson [00:18:19]:

Weak sauce okay. Super weak sauce it. In fact, even calling it a national government. I'm not taking issue per se with you using that term right now, but I. It is. Well, first of all, let's talk about what a state even means by definition. A state. That's a synonym, more or less, for country. The colonies becoming states. They don't see themselves as provinces. They're not united in that sort of way. They are independent, sovereign states. And they put it that way in the articles of confederation. Between article two and article three, they say that they are independent, sovereign. The only things are given up are what are specifically stated in the articles. It's basically the 10th Amendment, 1.0, if you will. And they call themselves, I'm quoting here, a league of friendship. League of Friendship. That's not a country. It's a league of friendship. I think one of the best analogies ever given is by Gordon Wood, a famous historian of the American Revolution. He likes to compare the United States under the articles of Confederation to the European Union. Independent, sovereign. Definitely working together on some things. We got this body that kind of gets together. But again, we're not gonna call that. You're not gonna go to France and find someone saying, yes, I'm european. No, I'm french.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:19:35]:

This is such an excellent comparison to the European Union, because the European Union also finds itself at this weird hitch point where it either needs to break up and become independent or become a federation like that.

Greg Jackson [00:19:46]:

That's exactly what happens.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:19:47]:

And that's what happens to us during this critical period, because we learn we either got to break up or we got to get married. We can't live together anymore.

Greg Jackson [00:19:53]:

Precisely.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:19:53]:

Right. So the articles confederation, the actual structure is very interesting. It lacks a lot of the innovative features, the radical features of the states. You don't see separation of powers. There's just a legislature, even if.

Greg Jackson [00:20:07]:

Is that the right term, you know, it's because what you have are anywhere from two to seven representatives from every state. Every state gets to decide how many they send and how that, and how they're going to elect those representatives. They're independent, sovereign states, right. Not Congress's business, how they set it up, how a state wants to send people. And it doesn't matter if you send two or seven, though. It doesn't change the fact that you only have one vote. It doesn't matter if you are dinky little. No offense, but dinky little Rhode island. We're just going to keep picking on them or, you know, massive. It's fun to think about the numbers today. Right. The population, Virginia, was less than half a million, but massive. Virginia, you're going to get one vote in this congress, which is part of where it's going to be so weak because Virginia's not interested in giving a whole bunch of power to. To this thing where they are equal to Rhode island. That sounds crazy to them.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:20:53]:

Right. So you have this one chamber, this one cameral unicameral quasi legislature with extraordinarily limited powers.

Greg Jackson [00:21:03]:

Oh, yeah. I mean, they've got small issues. They need a small majority of seven. Bigger issues need nine. There are a few things where they actually need unanimity, which. Good luck. Right.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:21:13]:

Such as amending this thing to give this national government any kind of significant or just naturally national powers. Yes, you'd need.

Greg Jackson [00:21:21]:

I think it's interesting to note that some of the states actually referred to their delegation going to Congress as their embassy. That doesn't highlight how the states thought of themselves as independent and sovereign and what this Congress was. I don't know what does. Like, I can't make the point stronger or more ardently than that.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:21:39]:

I did not know that, but that is brilliant. And also, if you are a deeply ambitious 27 year old male, unfortunately, you do not want to be in continental Congress. You don't want to be in the national government. It's like a stepping stone to the cool jobs in the state. Such a reverse of how you see it today.

Greg Jackson [00:22:00]:

Yes.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:22:00]:

Right. Okay. And you're subject to recall. So you can be fired at any time.

Greg Jackson [00:22:04]:

Yes, you can.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:22:04]:

Okay, so this is the articles Confederation. Let's just list out some things the national government cannot do.

Greg Jackson [00:22:10]:

Oh, my favorite list. It's long, but we'll go with the highlights. Yeah. Congress cannot raise a tax. They can't tax. So it can say, hey, we need money for things. We're going to form an army. Here's a continental army. George Washington, please go lead this army. Great. Now, will everyone please chip in? I think of it almost like when you go to dinner with a big group of friends, like a massive group, right? We're talking, well, let's say 13, just to grab a random number. And no one really talks about who's actually paying for it, but everyone's going to order some stuff. And then there's always the friend who's, you know, going to be pretty indulgent. The foodie. There's the one who's like, tap water's fine, thanks. Salad. Salad will do. And so it's very, you know, the costs have been very different from plate to plate. And then out comes the one bill who's going to pay, and there's always that one friend who pays a little extra, right? Rounds up, and then somehow the bill comes up short and everyone's. No, I mean, I put my money in there. I'm assuming most people have lived through that sort of experience at some point in life. And that's exactly what Congress sets itself, sets itself up to do, is they're trying to do things, particularly run a freaking war. Wars are expensive and constantly they are behind. You have soldiers and officers who are up to half a decade by the time the war is over. Half a decade behind in pay. So think about your typical soldier. These aren't all. I mean, George Washington sacrificed immensely. Okay, I'm not downplaying his sacrifice, but he is an elite. He can absorb five years without, you know, without pay. In fact, he rejected pay. He refused to take pay. He would only accept compensation for his own out of pocket costs. He refused a salary. But if you are, say, a Massachusetts farmer, how do you live for five years without. Without pay? And of course, I'm hinting at, you know, Shays rebellion. That's how you end up with soldiers going, what do you mean I can't vote? Well, you're not rich enough to vote. Well, but I'm not rich enough because I wasn't paid for half a year for bleeding and dying for the nation.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:24:14]:

Right. So this becomes a collective action problem, not just during the revolutionary war, but once the revolutionary war is over, we're in debt.

Greg Jackson [00:24:21]:

Congress is buried in debt.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:24:23]:

Yeah, we have no way to pay.

Greg Jackson [00:24:25]:

This off, domestic and foreign. It comes to. I got around. Sorry, I can't remember the exact number. It's about $80 million in debt. I, uh. Most of that's foreign debt.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:24:35]:

Okay, so we're going to have serious economic problems here. We also don't have a single entity that can negotiate trade agreements with other countries.

Greg Jackson [00:24:43]:

Let me just add, that greatly exceeds. Even when taxation starts, it exceeds the total income of, uh, of tariffs. So I just realized 80 million. It's. It's like, what does that even mean, translating it today? So I'm sorry.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:24:56]:

No, no, this. Thank you.

Greg Jackson [00:24:57]:

It's a massive number. It's devastating.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:25:00]:

No, it's a great clarification. Okay, so they can't deal with other countries. They can't deal with debts that are domestic. And to compound problems, nearly have colonial.

Greg Jackson [00:25:12]:

Officers march on Congress and basically set up a military dictatorship. George Washington barely stops that from happening in 1783.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:25:20]:

A reason to love George Washington by the way. And there are so many.

Greg Jackson [00:25:23]:

Oh, I know. No. The Newburgh conspiracy. That moment. I'd love to nerd out on that, but I know we don't have time. He saved the. Of the many times that was one day, yet again, where he single handedly saved the american republic from death.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:25:38]:

I also tell my students this. There are three times when George Washington walks away from total power. And because of those three things, he is unimpeachable. I don't care what else he did that is contrary to human nature. To walk away from power that many times, it's just so historically.

Greg Jackson [00:25:52]:

Yeah. He's such an outlier among.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:25:55]:

Right.

Greg Jackson [00:25:55]:

Our species.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:25:56]:

So moving away from the excellence of George Washington, though, we could stay here forever.

Greg Jackson [00:26:00]:

We could. Just like. We could rip on Tom for quite a while.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:26:03]:

The articles of Confederation have one super glaring problem, and that is they do not have any military capacities. None. Which means you have no way to deal with the British who haven't left. They're still around, and who's gonna make them, right? Yeah. Right.

Greg Jackson [00:26:26]:

That's basically what it comes down to.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:26:27]:

You and whose army. Quite literally.

Greg Jackson [00:26:28]:

Yeah.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:26:29]:

And also domestic crisis. And this brings us to what you were hinting at. Shay's rebellion.

Greg Jackson [00:26:35]:

Yep.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:26:36]:

So right before Shay's rebellion, you have the Annapolis convention.

Greg Jackson [00:26:39]:

Yes.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:26:40]:

Which is basically, hey, guys, we need to make some commercial changes to the articles Confederation and maybe, maybe amend it. But it's Shay's rebellion that tips us over the edge to a second revolution. Some people would say a counter revolution. The creation of the US constitution. Because it's about crisis.

Greg Jackson [00:27:00]:

Well, let's also remember that Madison gets a lot of credit, as he should. Alexander Hamilton, though, is pushing right there with him. And Hamilton's experience. He was an aide de camp to George Washington during the war. So he, like George, he saw every day we're trying to run this army. Congress isn't sending money. Men are starving to death. They are freezing to death. Valley forged about 2000 soldiers go to their graves, not because of british musketry, but because they starved and froze. That is insane. And again, for numbers, Washington never led more than 15,000 men meaningfully, I'll say, at a time. So we're talking a major percentage of his menta dying, going to the grave simply because they're not funded.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:27:44]:

Right? Right. Okay, so crisis, government, and Hamilton's understanding of it, you have all leading up to this crisis in the states who cannot themselves handle domestic crises, who are.

Greg Jackson [00:27:56]:

Oh, and they're fighting with each other too.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:27:58]:

Fighting with each other. And are becoming actually dictatorial little legislatures. And then you have problems with other countries who we're not paying our debts off to. We have a debt crisis domestically. We have the British, who are still on american soil, and then we have Shays rebellion. So give me the brief contour of Shays rebellion.

Greg Jackson [00:28:17]:

So, basically, you've got. I mean, Shay himself was a captain in the Continental army. You've got a number of farmers who, according to the way Massachusetts functioned at that time, basically, there's a financial threshold, being able to cast a vote. Okay, so they're white, they're male, but you've also got to have the funds. Well, they're all going broke. They're a bunch of western farmers. And you've got some of them who, like the good captain here. They're broke in part because Congress owes them for years of work. Now, they've gotten their IOU from Congress that many of them had to turn around and sell for pennies on the dollar because it was never going to come about. And they needed to eat today because they're just average people. They aren't, you know, rolling in the dough. So what happens when you have a bunch of discontent farmers who know how to soldier, who fought for their rights, and then you turn around and say, oh, you know what? You're not elite enough to vote. Oh, they're grabbing the brown best, and they're right back at it. So we have this terrible situation, which you've got hundreds of farmers who know how to soldier going, and basically it's a civil war against the Massachusetts state government. And you now got Massachusetts sending Benjamin Lincoln, I believe it was. I'll put a. Believe. I'm, like, 99% sure. But a former continental general, he has the displeasure of having to go meet in the field. Former continentals is they're fighting for their rights that they already fought for in the war, but Massachusetts dictates who votes, so.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:29:44]:

And let's. Let's put a. Let's put this in constitutional context here. Massachusetts, the governor of Massachusetts, you would expect to be able to handle this crisis, has no military powers. It's ultimately, I believe, a series of mercenaries hired by wealthy Bostonians who are able to put down this. Right. So you see.

Greg Jackson [00:30:04]:

Yes, thank you. How I spaced putting that in context. Barely forgivable. Thank you.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:30:09]:

No, no. So we have state constitutions that are failing because they lack an executive who can handle crisis, and you have a non existent national government that has no executive, no crisis powers, no military powers whatsoever, and is completely impotent to do anything about shays rebellion, which is that last step to the death of democracy. Literally, it's a brewing civil war.

Greg Jackson [00:30:32]:

It is.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:30:33]:

Which is exactly what Aristotle warned us about. That is the last gasp of democracies. So this is enough of a spark to make us fall back in love with even the slightest idea of a powerful executive. We now learn not only do we need separation of powers, which most states had, but we need a strong congress with a co equal and strong presidency and also the judiciary. But they're really focusing here on.

Greg Jackson [00:30:59]:

Yeah, no, it's to say exactly that. Also there will be some judges and also them.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:31:03]:

Yeah, right. So. But the executive. And this executive has to be imbued with powers, powers that he can use in a crisis so that you don't have a Shays rebellion 2.0.

Greg Jackson [00:31:17]:

Yeah.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:31:18]:

This is the american solution to the Hannibal dilemma, is not just separation of powers, but checks and balances which allow for three co equal and strong institutions. I think that's so unique in historical development and so important. We don't just have a strong congress, we have a strong president, and they have weapons to use against each other to keep each other from becoming either a dictatorial congress or an actual dictator.

Greg Jackson [00:31:44]:

The idea is that they are going to clash intentionally. That's another thing that I think is often forgotten, is that some of the slow moving gears of our government, yes, some of it is problematic. It's party games and whatnot. But much of it is also intentional. It's supposed to be slow, deliberative checks and balances.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:32:07]:

Yes, I think this was helpful. How did the articles confederation, how did our experiences under the state constitutions lead us to 1787 and the creation of Article two, which I think we're going to need another episode to speak about the creation of article two and what it looks like both at the convention and in its earliest applications. So for now, Greg, thank you so much for your time. This was delightful.

Greg Jackson [00:32:31]:

My pleasure. Thanks.

Savannah Eccles Johnston [00:32:32]:

We're just beginning to explore the rich legacy of America's Constitution. If todays discussion deepened your understanding, share this episode with a friend or student and subscribe to continue learning with us. For more insights and exclusive content, visit uvu.edu ccs thank you for joining us, and we look forward to exploring more with you on this constitution, brought to you by the UVU center for Constitutional Studies, home to Utahs Civic thought and leadership initiative.