This Constitution

Season 4, Episode 5 | The Fourth-of-July Question America Needs to Ask

• Savannah Eccles Johnston & Matthew Brogdon • Season 4 • Episode 5

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0:00 | 30:44

Are Americans Declaration People or Constitution People?

The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are two of America’s most important founding documents, but this episode asks a deeper civic question: which one actually defines who Americans are?

In this Fourth of July episode, Savannah Eccles Johnston is joined by Dr. Leah Murray, Brady Presidential Distinguished Professor of Political Science and Philosophy and Director of the Walker Institute of Politics & Public Policy at Weber State University. Together, they explore whether Americans are more emotionally shaped by the Declaration’s ideals or more practically shaped by the Constitution’s institutions.

The conversation examines the Declaration as the “heart” of America and the Constitution as its “head.” The Declaration gives the country its moral purpose: equality, liberty, natural rights, and the pursuit of happiness. The Constitution gives the country a structure for living together despite disagreement, ambition, self-interest, and competing visions of the good.

Tune in to learn why the Fourth of July is not just a celebration of independence, but a reminder of the truths America is still trying to live up to. Johnston and Murray discuss civic education, local politics, legitimate disagreement, the meaning of equality, and why Americans may need to recover the founding ideas they have forgotten.

In This Episode

  • (00:00) Podcast Introduction
  • (00:39) Introduction to Dr. Leah Murray
  • (01:17) Are Americans Declaration people or Constitution people?
  • (01:32) The Declaration as America’s heart and the Constitution as its head
  • (03:02) Why Americans connect more emotionally with the Declaration
  • (05:25) How the Constitution responded to the failures of early American government
  • (07:30) Rights, civic behavior, and the Bill of Rights
  • (10:24) Do Americans still believe in universal truths?
  • (13:00) Why citizenship has to be taught
  • (13:59) Equality, opportunity, and America’s unfinished work
  • (15:51) What “the pursuit of happiness” really means
  • (18:03) Do Americans actually like representative democracy?
  • (20:00) Whether Americans still believe disagreement is legitimate
  • (22:19) Why constitutional government depends on local relationships
  • (24:32) What happens when the Declaration and Constitution clash
  • (27:18) Why America needs both founding documents
  • (31:19) What every American should do on the Fourth of July

Notable Quotes

  • (02:23) “To me, the Declaration is the heart, the Constitution is the head, and both of these are right.” — Dr. Leah Murray
  • (09:12) “The Constitution is my favorite... but when you ask me what America is and where we resonate, I think it’s the Declaration.” — Dr. Leah Murray
  • (13:07) “Citizenship has to be taught. It is a habit.” — Savannah Eccles Johnston
  • (17:35) “It’s not just I get to do whatever I want. It’s about being the best version of myself in the community I find myself in.” — Dr. Leah Murray
  • (18:34) “It’s not a concierge planet.” — Dr. Leah Murray
  • (22:21) “A return to local to be able to save our ability to be a constitutional people.” — Savannah Eccles Johnston
  • (27:29) “The Constitution is nothing without the beauty of the Declaration, and the Declaration is just noise without the vehicle.” — Dr. Leah Murray
  • (31:30) “They need to know the Declaration of Independence, and if on the Fourth of July all they’re doing is lighting off fireworks and not reading that document, they are doing themselves a disservice.” — Dr. Leah Murray

Resources and Links

This Constitution  

Dr. Leah Murray

Savannah Eccles Johnston

Intro:

[00:00:05 - 00:00:10]

We the people, do ordain and establish this constitution.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:00:18 - 00:00:44]

Welcome to This Constitution. My name is Savannah Eccles Johnston. And today we have just a great guest from here in Utah. This is Dr. Leah Murray, who's the Brady Presidential Distinguished professor of Political Science and Philosophy and the director of the Walker Institute of Politics and Public Policy at Weber State University. She's also one of the co-hosts of the Inside Utah Politics podcast, which you should check out, especially if you like Utah politics, because it's the greatest state.

Leah Murray:

[00:00:45 - 00:00:46]

It is the greatest state.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:00:46 - 00:00:52]

It is the greatest state in the union. Thank you for agreeing with me. So today we're gonna talk about. This is our fourth of July episode.

Leah Murray:

[00:00:52 - 00:00:52]

Okay.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:00:52 - 00:00:59]

So today we're gonna talk about, are the American people a Declaration of Independence people or a constitutional people?

Leah Murray:

[00:00:59 - 00:01:00]

Okay.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:01:00 - 00:01:03]

And before we talk about anything else, I just want your quick gut reaction.

Leah Murray:

[00:01:03 - 00:01:05]

Can it be both?

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:01:05 - 00:01:06]

And yes, you're allowed to give that.

Leah Murray:

[00:01:06 - 00:02:08]

Okay. So what I want to say to you as someone who probably has read everything from the founding and I am same, there is an excellent letter to Maria Cosway from Thomas Jefferson called the Head and the Heart. This is not the short answer you were looking for, but I am a college professor, so I apologize. And basically, Thomas Jefferson, he was, like, flirting with a woman in France. It doesn't work out. And he's writing her a letter about his broken heart. So just so you know the context, but he basically is the head talking to the heart and saying, we really wish you would stop falling in love with these people. Cause actually, as it turns out, it hurts. And the head saying, you know, you should really behave. And the heart saying, but we are the passion. Right? So a little bit when you ask this question, what comes to my mind is Thomas Jefferson having a conversation between his head and his heart, where the head says, we make all the right decisions, and the heart says, we are the organ that saves the country. Right? So to me, the Declaration is the heart. The Constitution is the head. So we are people of both of those. We are both the heart and the head of this country 

Savannah Eccles Johnston:[00:02:08 - 00:02:10]

In some important way. It doesn't make sense to speak about one without the other.

Leah Murray:

[00:02:10 - 00:02:11]

Correct.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:02:11 - 00:02:29]

So they're doing different things linguistically. The Declaration is speaking in terms of principles, correct and beautiful, grand statements. And the Constitution much less so correct. It's talking about institutions and channeling self interest and. And all of this kind of more structural stuff, and yet together they form the basis of the American identity.

Leah Murray:

[00:02:29 - 00:02:30]

Yeah, that's right.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:02:30 - 00:02:45]

I like to talk about it as vehicle and destination. Right. Constitution is a vehicle, and Declaration is a destination for us. But first, let's go back to this heart thing. So which of these two do Americans emotionally identify with, do you think?

Leah Murray:

[00:02:45 - 00:03:46]

Oh, I think that's so interesting. It has to be the heart, right? So the fact that this is the 4th of July episode, and the thing I always say to my students is, although Utah's a little interesting, greatest state. I grew up in New York State, so I will say another great state. And in New York State, the big parties in July were July 4th exclusively. So when I moved out here, I was like, what is this July 24 thing? And, like, Weber State tries to strike the balance. And we do a big celebration on, like, the 18th of July, like, in the middle of the two of them. So little it lands wrong here. But the answer is we do fireworks, we have hot dogs. We do all of the big American things on the 4th of July. We don't really do that on September 17th, which is Constitution Day. So to answer your question, and September is a good month, too. You know, you could have a hot dog in September. Right. Baseball is still playing. So to answer your question, clearly we identify more with the Declaration because that is the holiday to which we have, you know, that we pay homage in a way that we do not for the other document.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:03:46 - 00:03:58]

That's true, though I sometimes wonder if when people are celebrating the Fourth of July and in their minds, they're not thinking about the Declaration of Independence. Maybe some people are, but they're probably also thinking about the Constitution because these two things aren't actually separated in the American mind.

Leah Murray:

[00:03:58 - 00:04:49]

Right. Or something. Right. About that. So you, like, argue with me. I have a real. And you didn't ask this question, so I apologize. I'll just answer a question I have in my head. But I have a real distinction between who are the people, who are the major players at the Revolution, and who are the major players at the Constitution. And there's a generation gap. And if you had it like today, it'd be like Gen X and the Millennials, right? Like it is. Absolutely. There's a difference between them. And to a certain extent, I think now, 250 years later, we collapse them. Because looking back through history, right. Time kind of collapses. So the answer is, you're not wrong. But also, it's wrong. Ben Franklin is July 4, Alexander Hamilton, James Madison is September 17. And those are two distinct, I think, moments in American. In the American origin story, and they should not be conflated.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:04:49 - 00:05:14]

Okay. Although I think maybe we're separating them too much here. Right. There's a great continuation between the Declaration and the Constitution. I simply don't accept this idea that the Constitution is a conservative reaction to the Declaration. No, it's a continuation of its principles. It's a how can we actually make this work in a long term basis? And we should also just make sure people know Benjamin Franklin was at both. He was just old and gouty and a little tired at the convention.

Leah Murray:

[00:05:14 - 00:05:15]

I'm like a thing when he.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:05:15 - 00:05:16]

Right, right.

Leah Murray:

[00:05:16 - 00:05:53]

No, your point's well taken. And I would argue Alexander Hamilton also fought in the Revolutionary War. Right. So I think that is fair. I don't see it as a conservative reaction a little bit what I see the Constitution is people going oh, this actually didn't work. So the story that I tell is the Declaration of Independence is a real reaction to a fear of executive power and the assumption that if you had local control and if you had full on legislative power, everything would work out okay. And after 10 years they were like, oh, as it turns out, as it turns out, local control and local government can be as naughty.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:05:53 - 00:05:54]

Right.

Leah Murray:

[00:05:54 - 00:06:22]

And legislative power can be as problematic. So I read the Constitution. It's not a conservative reaction, but a. Oh no, as it turns out there were more boogeymen than we accounted for right at the original. So what we're gonna do is design this thing that helps us navigate the more perfect union we wanna be. The ideals that we wanna have, that we wanna live up to, that we never actually do, but we strive all the time. And this document, the Constitution's gonna do that better, right?

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:06:22 - 00:06:56]

Agreed. Agreed. So the Declaration again going back to this is giving us this destination, this goal, this something we're reaching towards. And our first vehicle is Articles Confederation. And it fails and the state constitutions fail because there's this fe. So you get the Constitution. It's a vehicle that works for us. These two things are connected. But you're right, these are different generations and they have very different experiences, political experiences that mold their thinking. So I asked which one are Americans emotionally attached to? And you said obviously it's the Declaration. It has the beautiful flowery language which one actually informs or shapes civic behavior.

Leah Murray:

[00:06:56 - 00:07:13]

Okay. So I want to push on the both and too. But the answer is like children in this country would say that's unconstitutional. Right? Like they would use that language, that kind of shout out to that document. But I'll tell you what, if we had a word cloud of what America was like, the biggest word, don't you think would be rights?

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:07:14 - 00:07:14]

Yeah.

Leah Murray:

[00:07:14 - 00:08:29]

And to me, those live in both places. But even if I'm talking about rights like it is, we have these inalienable rights. The Declaration talks about that. It is not until we get the add of the Bill of Rights to the Constitution. So a little bit in the. Maybe we went a little too dry. We gotta bring the heart back into this thing. Let's write these rights back into this document. You know, so I, I don't know. Like, I still say your civic self is the person that is pursuing happiness and your civic self is the person who believes in freedom. And your civic. If you ask an American what your constitutional rights are, they're never gonna say, hey, be it's corpus. They're gonna say right to free speech, right to bear arms. And they're gonna list rights that are a call back to the original grievances listed in the Declaration. And don't get me wrong, I'm a huge James Madison fan. Alexander Hamilton's one of my favorites. Like the Constitution is my favorite. Montesquieu checks and balances beautifully put into place in the Constitution. My favorite thing to talk about. But when you ask me, like, what America is and where we resonate, I think it's the Declaration, I think it's the Bill of Rights. And the Constitution's super important, but we are a declarational people.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:08:29 - 00:08:33]

Okay, well, this is my answer too, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you to make this more interesting. But first, so let's.

Leah Murray:

[00:08:33 - 00:08:34]

We should have planned.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:08:36 - 00:09:20]

I think we're a Declaration of Independence people. And there's this great article that's between Harry Jaffa, who's this kind of titan of Western political philosophy guy out of California, and the Claremont Institute. And there's Harvey Mansfield, who's East coast Harvard, very fancy. And there's this article comparing the two and Harry Jaffa's the a declaration people and Harvey Mansfield is that we're a Constitution people and we hold these truths to be self evident. Is a great half truth. Right. Not a full truth. And as I read this article, I came down, no, we're a declaration people. Right? There's the heart to it. There's the soul of the project. It's what we're constantly pushing towards. Constitution is a great vehicle, but in the end is ultimately a vehicle without the Declaration, the Constitution doesn't make America right.

Leah Murray:

[00:09:20 - 00:09:20]

Doesn't have life.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:09:20 - 00:09:28]

In fact, look at the Confederacy. Right? The Confederacy is just the. The Constitution with some updates for political fights and a lot more slavery.

Leah Murray:

[00:09:29 - 00:09:29]

Right.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:09:29 - 00:09:30]

That's Not America.

Leah Murray:

[00:09:30 - 00:09:31]

That's not America.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:09:31 - 00:09:52]

Okay, so, but let's kind of push back then on. Are we actually a Declaration of Independence people? Do Americans still believe in universal truth? Because the Declaration is asserting a universal truth here. We hold these truths to be self-evident, and they mean, like, these truths are true everywhere, in all times, in all things and all places, all people. Right, right. Do we still believe that? Are we a universal truth kind of people?

Leah Murray:

[00:09:52 - 00:11:57]

I think we are. And maybe we need to whisper it back into our soul. Okay, so like, the thing that I talk about, and you asked the civics question, like, earlier a little bit, right? And the answer is we have spent, I don't know, almost 70 years in this country with wanting our citizens to be scientists, right? So in the late 1950s, we decided the most important thing we can do is challenge Sputnik. And so we put all of our money into science classes. And I just say this as a social scientist, but like  STEM, right? Like, so all the money was in STEM , the early part of this century. All the money is like, the end of level testing is reading and math and then science. And then I ask you, right? It's like last year, Utah said, how about we have three years of social studies? Why don't we have three years of civics, right? And I'm asking the legislator who passed that bill, well, what's the end of level test? He's like, well, we haven't really. Right. But we would never not end of level test math. We would never not. Right? So a little bit, what I want to say to you is it is our soul. But like, we forgot and our education system stopped teaching it and talking about it. And in many ways we have been taught. I would argue for 70 years, like, you are not supposed to talk about politics. You know, off the air, before we started chatting, you were like, don't you get tired of listening? Like, the answer is no. Like, we should always be thinking about these big questions and talking about these big questions. And we've taught our children not to talk about it, right? We have said, don't talk about these controversial issues. So I think we are a still believer in universal truth. I think when you ask Americans, do you have the right to life, they're probably gonna say yes if you ask. And this is my favorite one to talk about. If you talk about, like, what values the most important, freedom always lands. If you are a liberal or conservative and if you are an American, freedom is up there. The way you define it might be different how you see it playing out might be different, but you absolutely land on that universal truth of freedom. So I am going to say I think we're there and like, we forgot to talk about it.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:11:57 - 00:12:07]

Well, this is such a key point. We had this really incorrect idea that civic thought citizenship could be passed on without teaching it.

Leah Murray:

[00:12:07 - 00:12:08]

Correct.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:12:08 - 00:12:16]

That it would just happen in the blood somehow. And you didn't have to say it, it would be instinctual. And it's not. Citizenship has to be taught the founding ideals. It's a habit.

Leah Murray:

[00:12:16 - 00:12:16]

It's a habit.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:12:16 - 00:12:23]

Right. And the ideals of the Declaration have to be taught. But we can recover them because they're still there in our DNA. They just have to be recovered.

Leah Murray:

[00:12:23 - 00:12:36]

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Right. Like the idea is Americans know kind of instinctively. Right. And it's. They might not have the right language for it, but we just. I like how you just said that we just need to recover it.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:12:36 - 00:12:43]

Wouldn't it be helpful, you think, to healing some of our deep political divisions? To recover truths that we all agree on?

Leah Murray:

[00:12:43 - 00:12:43]

Yes.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:12:43 - 00:12:55]

Give us a civic foundation again. Yes, we all agree on this thing. We can fight about the particulars. Okay, next question. You say we still believe in universal truth. Do we still believe in equality? Have we ever fully believed in equality? Is it something? Tell me about that. 

Leah Murray:

[00:12:55 - 00:13:48]

Oh, that is such a good question. So again, I feel it depends on how you define it. I do think that we have always believed in inequality of opportunity. I think we argue about whether that equality of opportunity should actually be equality of outcome. And I kind of think that's a political argument. Argument. We could totally have that argument. But then I also think we, and I wanna like, be really clear on this. When the American moment happens, it is. We be careful not to read back on history, especially about equality. Right. Like, so pre America, it's a very aristocratic world. There is no notion of equality. So what you have in this American moment is a very post aristocratic, pre Democratic world. Small D democratic. So the idea of people governing, the idea of people having equality, which is we are starting at nothing.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:13:48 - 00:13:49]

Right.

Leah Murray:

[00:13:49 - 00:14:09]

Like, so, you know, the way I talk about this with my students, 6% of Americans were eligible to vote the first time we had elections. That doesn't feel like equality. Like 6% of Americans are eligible to vote today. It's like 67%. Just so you know, we've gotten better over the years. So obviously you and I would not have been equal.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:14:09 - 00:14:09]

Right.

Leah Murray:

[00:14:09 - 00:14:33]

Like had we been around then we would not have been seen as equal. But. But if you look at it in that moment compared to zero , 6% is still a huge leap forward. So a little bit, I wanna say equality's a tricky one and we're always like talking about it, but if you look at it through the lens of coming forward through history and not looking backward on history.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:14:33 - 00:14:40]

Absolutely right. So it's useful to compare free white males voting in Great Britain versus free white males voting in the United States. And then there's a dramatic difference.

Leah Murray:[00:14:40 - 00:14:40]

Correct.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:14:40 - 00:14:42]

Between the two, especially in those first 20 years.

Leah Murray:

[00:14:42 - 00:14:43]

Correct.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:14:43 - 00:15:17]

Okay, so last thing, if we're a Declaration of Independence, people, do we read that document incorrectly? So for example, when you get the life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness stuff, when I bring up pursuit of happiness, you can just see these like 19 year old boys, their little libertarian eyes light up in joy. Right? But pursuit of happiness doesn't mean you do, you do what you want. It's a more ancient understanding of a pursuit of moral excellence. You have a right to become excellent, to fulfill the telos or the end of your life, your creation as a human being. Is that understanding just completely lost? Are we misreading our fundamental document today?

Leah Murray:

[00:15:17 - 00:15:22]

No. I feel like again, we have forgotten it. All right, so let's pick on Thomas Jefferson.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:15:23 - 00:15:24]

This is my favorite sport. Let's do it.

Leah Murray:

[00:15:24 - 00:15:37]

Let's pick on him and the other document he writes around the time of the Constitution, which is the Northwest Ordinance. Right. And in that document he says, as we build out territories, right. What we need to have are schools and churches.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:15:37 - 00:15:38]

Right.

Leah Murray:

[00:15:38 - 00:16:28]

Because if you're going to have this democracy, you think you want to have the people have to have good character. Right. So he's very clearly talking about we need religious underpinning, we need educational underpinning to make sure that people understand what they are searching for again. And so I like how you're like the 19 year old boys, like when I'm talking I'm like, what is the point of general education? And I think you all think it's like the Chinese smorgasbord, right. Of like, I gotta get to these 30 credit hours and I might move on. And no, the answer to general education is to make you someone who is an excellent neighbor, who is someone who you would want to have on the PTA with you, Right. And that is all about that pursuit of happiness, right? What you just said, it's not just I get to do whatever I want. It's about being the best version of myself in the community I find myself in.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:16:28 - 00:16:49]

Yeah. So it's relational, it's outward looking right. And again, our need to re educate Americans on what that founding document is. Almost remake a Declaration of Independence. People. Okay, let's go to the Constitution side here for a second. So Constitution a little bit more bland. I mean, it's not actually. But in comparison to the flowery language. Right. And we're gonna exclude the Bill of Rights for right now. Just gonna talk about the seven articles. Okay.

Leah Murray:[00:16:49 - 00:16:50]

Let's make it easier for you.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:16:50 - 00:16:52]

Yeah. So we the people is what we're doing.

Leah Murray:

[00:16:52 - 00:16:52]

Yeah.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:16:52 - 00:17:10]

And you create these institutions that determine how are you going to divide up power? How are you going to make decisions together as a people? The question I have is, are the American people actually that committed to the constitutional order? Do we actually like democracy or representative democracy is what I mean. Before someone's gonna throw something at me.

Leah Murray:

[00:17:10 - 00:17:10]

Yeah, yeah.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:17:11 - 00:17:15]

Or do we just like getting our way? Is that what we actually like?

Leah Murray:

[00:17:15 - 00:17:23]

No, I think the answer is we all like getting our way. And we all know we can't all have our way. It's not a concierge planet. Right. So the answer is.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:17:23 - 00:17:25]

But do we know that? I'm not convinced we do know that anymore.

Leah Murray:

[00:17:25 - 00:17:26]

I think we do.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:17:26 - 00:17:27]

You think so?

Leah Murray:

[00:17:27 - 00:18:04]

I think the most core civic unit is the neighbor. And I think when you are talking about, like a community you might live in, for the most part, when you are talking to that human face to face, like we are right now, you know, I am aware that in this conversation, I don't get my way. I don't get to talk you down. I don't get to talk over you. I don't get to stop you from talking. This is a relational exercise we are having right here. So a little bit, I think we know it and then we forget. So again, the narratives we are telling ourselves right now, like every political conversation is a national conversation. And the answer is that's actually not right.

Savannah Eccles Johnston

[00:18:05 - 00:18:05]

Right.

Leah Murray:

[00:18:05 - 00:18:27]

The reason why federalism exists is because the local is actually more important. And we should be having conversations. What's good for this great state of Utah that you said is the greatest state. And as someone who grew up in the state of New York, I'm going to tell you there are differences, and those are beautiful, and they should be different. And the people who are having conversations in New York should not have the same conversations as we do here. And we know that. We just have to remember it.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:[00:18:28 - 00:18:35]

So I'm going to push a little bit more here. The Constitution assumes disagreement, and it assumes big and kind of permanent disagreement.

Leah Murray:[00:18:35 - 00:18:38]

It assumes big questions we will never answer fully right.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:[00:18:38 - 00:18:40]

That no one gets a permanent victory.

Leah Murray:[00:18:40 - 00:18:44]

Correct. Legitimate opposition. Right. It's one of my favorite pieces. Yeah.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:[00:18:44 - 00:18:49]

Well, so this. Do you think Americans today still believe that disagreement is legitimate?

Leah Murray:[00:18:50 - 00:19:19]

I think they do. And again, I feel like I just keep saying the same thing. There is political bank in the information economy we find ourselves in. We are winning, winning, winning. Right. But the answer is, and I, you know, the Knicks won. I will just place this podcast right in a time. They won the last game that before we recorded this. But you know, we still need the Spurs. Right. Basketball doesn't happen unless there are two teams playing the NBA final doesn't happen unless there are two teams. Everyone knows that.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:19:20 - 00:19:20]

Right.

Leah Murray:

[00:19:20 - 00:19:27]

So you can root for your team and it is legitimate for someone else to root for their team. And we still all love basketball.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:19:28 - 00:19:43]

Yeah. No, I think Leah Murray really believes this. I'm not sure if you're like average Democrat or Republican today actually thinks the other side's disagreement is legitimate in 2026 or at least some significant portion. I'm concerned they don't think that's true. I think it's illegitimate because it's morally wrong.

Leah Murray:

[00:19:44 - 00:19:52]

I think that is a fair statement and I don't think you see it in the one off conversations between people.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:19:52 - 00:19:53]

True. Oh, right. I agree with you.

Leah Murray:

[00:19:53 - 00:20:59]

I agree what I'm trying to say. Right. So my dad's best buddy and I will just kind of air my dad's politics. He doesn't live here. None of you will know him. So it's fine. He's a pretty libertarian, kind of left leaning. So very like left. If you think of libertarian as there should be no government and then no one should tell anybody he's a hippie what to do. Oh my gosh, he's a hippie. Thank you. That's exactly the right way to say it. And his best friend is not okay. And they basically have these conversations over a beer. I was chatting with him on my way down here. He's like, oh, Brad's downstairs. I gotta go. They are best friends. They disagree. If they were on social media in some kind of like national conversation, absolutely. They would both say the other one was not legitimate. But in their face to face, they are best friends. They are legitimate. So I think it's like we have to. The scale is wrong or something. Like we know it intuitively when the unit of analysis is in our relationships locally and then we kind of forget it when the unit of analysis becomes a national party that's so alienated from us anyway. So like a little bit why that's driving the way we think about it.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:20:59 - 00:21:01]

Right. So what you're calling for is a return to local.

Leah Murray:

[00:21:01 - 00:21:01]

Correct?

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:21:01 - 00:21:11]

A return to local. To be able to save our ability to be a constitutional people requires legitimate disagreement. Looking your neighbor in the face and saying, I don't hate you because I disagree with your politics.

Leah Murray:

[00:21:11 - 00:21:15]

That's right. We are all still playing basketball. But I'm mad at you right now because you won.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:[00:21:15 - 00:21:37]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think you're right in that you do still see that at the local level. The problem, I think, is that communities themselves are decaying. There are fewer interactions with neighbors, less community spirit. And so you have fewer chances to look your neighbor in the eye and be like, hey, I really like you. I know you voted the other way, but I still really like you. We have fewer of those opportunities, but you're saying it's time to pull it back to local politics.

Leah Murray:

[00:21:37 - 00:21:54]

And by the way, it's on us to make those opportunities. So the New York Times, I don't know if you know, they had this whole series on love. So they were like, modern love and, like, talking about, like, okay. And then they did a reboot of it, and they did civic love. And one of the questions they asked people were, have you asked your neighbors for help? Have you offered help to your neighbors?

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:21:55 - 00:21:55]

Right.

Leah Murray:

[00:21:55 - 00:22:00]

And I thought, oh, yeah. Like, the point is, I could just walk outside and be like, chat with people.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:22:00 - 00:22:01]

Right?

Leah Murray:

[00:22:01 - 00:22:13]

That is on me to do it. And I spent a lot of time sitting on my front porch and chatting with people when they walk by my house. Very specifically, intentionally making that behavior to be available to my neighbors.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:22:13 - 00:22:23]

Yeah. Okay, here's a question. I know you've been out of New York for a while, but I just. I need to just indulge my state pride for a second. Which state is better at neighborliness, Utah or New York?

Leah Murray:

[00:22:23 - 00:22:32]

Oh, it's really interesting that you ask that question. In New York, they would help you and not be nice about it. I can't.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:22:32 - 00:22:32]

Right?

Leah Murray:

[00:22:32 - 00:23:06]

Like, so they'll be like, I'm gonna shovel your car out of the snow. Cause you're an idiot and didn't do it. And here I'm gonna help you. But your car is gonna get out of the snow. In Utah, they're gonna be nice to you and be nice about it. They're gonna help you and be nice about it. So, like, in Utah, they're like, I'm gonna help. While we're doing that, we're going to chat. And by the end of the conversation, we'll be best friends. So I actually think in both places there is excellent neighborliness happening. It's just in New York, it is under a crusty, like the love is very much like, I'm going to help you and probably give you side eye while I'm doing it.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:23:06 - 00:23:06]

Yeah.

Leah Murray:

[00:23:06 - 00:23:07]

I don't know if that.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:23:07 - 00:23:25]

That was a very diplomatic answer from someone who owes loyalty to two states. Well done. All right, let's pull it back to the Declaration Constitution question. So what happens when these two documents clash as they have multiple times in our history? Does that clash, show us which people we are?

Leah Murray:

[00:23:25 - 00:23:28]

No, it shows us where the tensions are.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:23:28 - 00:23:29]

Oh, okay. Tell me about that.

Leah Murray:

[00:23:29 - 00:23:39]

Right. And how. Where the work needs to be done. Right. So. And I like how you've been saying the Constitution is a vehicle and I'll have to like, think about that. It is a work in progress.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:23:39 - 00:23:40]

Right.

Leah Murray:

[00:23:40 - 00:23:43]

Or something. And I like how you're thinking about the declaration as in the goal.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:23:43 - 00:23:43]

Right.

Leah Murray:

[00:23:43 - 00:24:58]

So that's like the work to the goal. So a little bit. I think the Constitution lays it out as perfectly for the moment that it can. And then something happens. Right. And so I will just be someone who is a woman. So I'll just kind of use this very specific case in point. And I have hanging on my wall my great grandmother's first ballot. So when she was allowed to vote in 1920, she had a master's degree, was 27 years old, right. And was finally allowed to vote because someone decided women could vote. And they came around and there's like, Mrs. Murray, here is the ballot and how you'll fill it out. So this ballot that I have framed at my wall has the X's and then her pencil marks because she goes through and goes, I'm not voting for that one. So some. Right. But she was like, she was a Republican and she county Republicans showed up to show her how to vote. And she's like, I will make my own choices and most of them will be Republican, but some of them will be other parties. And then so I have like the practice ballot. Like, I don't have the ballot she turned in and it's in a frame and it's on my wall. So I am like always aware that there was a clash very quickly for an identity that I am, like I said earlier, if it were 1776 today, I would not be allowed to vote. I think I probably would have been as intellectually curious. I probably would have maybe have read.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:24:59 - 00:25:02]

You wouldn't be speaking in a public manner. Right now, I probably would not be on this podcast.

Leah Murray:

[00:25:02 - 00:25:26]

You wouldn't be either. But I imagine I might have had feelings about it. And then women spent over 100 years asking the Constitution to acknowledge the goal that the Declaration set out for them. So the clash is never like a 90 degree angle. I think the clash is always when we're like, no, this is a conversation maybe we tabled.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:25:26 - 00:25:26]

Right.

Leah Murray:

[00:25:26 - 00:25:34]

This is a conversation we should have had earlier, but maybe we weren't politically ready for it yet. And then the Declaration calls the Constitution into account.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:25:35 - 00:25:39]

Right, right. So we're constantly pushing the Constitution towards the Declaration.

Leah Murray:

[00:25:39 - 00:25:39]

That's right.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:25:39 - 00:25:47]

Right. Okay. We've done that many times. Good. So final answers here. Your answer at the beginning was, we're both. Is that your final answer?

Leah Murray:

[00:25:47 - 00:25:48]

That is my final answer.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:25:48 - 00:25:52]

We're both, and we're not leaning more heavily on one side or the other.

Leah Murray:

[00:25:52 - 00:26:11]

I think we're both. And. And I think sometimes we forget that they both matter. Right. And I think the problem is if we leaned into one or the other, because the Constitution is nothing without the beauty of the Declaration. And the Declaration is just noise without the vehicles you call the Constitution.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:26:12 - 00:26:19]

All right, I think that's a good answer. But I've got a couple quick pop quiz questions for you. All right, so I need one thing that makes you hopeful about America.

Leah Murray:

[00:26:19 - 00:26:35]

Oh, I think people and neighbors, we have these whole conversations around how polarized everybody is. And I always say, yeah, Congress is, but me and my neighbor down the street, we did not vote for the same presidential candidate, maybe ever. We are just fine.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:26:35 - 00:26:36]

Yeah.

Leah Murray:

[00:26:36 - 00:26:40]

So I am hopeful. What gives me hope about America is the fact that people are still here.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:26:40 - 00:27:01]

All right. Oh, good. Okay, number two, pop quiz. The average American does not have, like, two hours to do politics every single day, but they need to be informed about local. You emphasize local, about state, and about national. Give some random man living in Orem, Utah, United States, some media that they can go to to get news about local, state, and national.

Leah Murray:

[00:27:01 - 00:27:47]

Well, my goodness, I have to say Inside Utah politics on ABC4 as like, you know, that's the team that I'm on. So I think that. And you and I discuss, like, offline a little bit. I also think it's, like, which medium you think is the most compelling way. How do I say, I like to write with a Sharpie pen? Cause writing with those pens just give me some joy. So I would not want to say to someone, you have to write with a Sharpie pen if your favorite thing to do is to write with the pen. I see you writing. Some people really like pencils. Right? So the answer is, pick the medium that resonates with you. Like, so if you like listening to podcasts, it should be that. If you like reading newspapers, it should be that. But then it's, like, always choosing one from, like, both sides of the political aisle.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:27:47 - 00:27:59]

So give me an example of that. You love podcasts, you said. I despise podcasts. Except for this one, which is a great podcast, and Leah's, which is also an excellent podcast. So, Leah, give people some podcast examples.

Leah Murray:

[00:27:59 - 00:28:05]

Yeah, so like, I would say, if I'm listening to Tucker Carlson, I need to also listen to Pod Save America.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:28:05 - 00:28:06]

Oh, okay.

Leah Murray:

[00:28:06 - 00:28:57]

All right, so the answer is you have to have in your media diet all the food groups. Okay, so you want to make sure. My favorite podcast I ever listened to recently, so I just. That sounded very big, but let me, like, make it smaller. Was Ezra Klein interviewing Ben Shapiro after Charlie Kirk? And if you've never listened to it, you should go find it. It is a lovely conversation between two people who deeply disagree, you know, on, like, what color the sky probably is. Right. And very much found common ground in the grief and the tragedy of what had happened here on your campus. And grappling with, you know, how to recover from that. That conversation gives me hope.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:28:57 - 00:29:06]

So the food groups, which one is this podcast with Ezra Klein and Ben Shapiro? Is it your vegetable, your meat? Is it, like, steak, or is it chocolate cake?

Leah Murray:

[00:29:06 - 00:29:18]

Oh, well, I don't eat chocolate cake, so I'll say, like, I'm sorry, I'm allergic to chocolate, so chocolate is never a food group I get to have. But. But it was savory. So let's go like it was steak. 

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:29:18 - 00:29:19]

Yeah. That's the worst thing you've said on this podcast.

Leah Murray:

[00:29:19 - 00:29:19]

I know. I'm so.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:29:20 - 00:29:33]

Okay. All right, so last question. Last question. One thing. If every American listened to this episode of this podcast, you can tell them one thing. One thing they need to know. The 250th anniversary of the United States.What is it they need to know?

Leah Murray:

[00:29:33 - 00:29:50]

They need to know the Declaration of Independence. And if on the 4th of July, all they're doing is lighting off fireworks and not reading that document, they are doing themselves a disservice. So every year, 4th of July, take a minute, read it, understand what it is we are trying to do here. Embrace it.

Savannah Eccles Johnston:

[00:29:51 - 00:29:55]

Preach, Leah, preach. All right, well, thank you for your time today. We so appreciate it.

Leah Murray:

[00:29:55 - 00:29:55]

Thank you.

Outro 

[00:29:58 - 00:30:39]

The Constitution is more than parchment under glass at the National Archives, it's a blueprint for American self government that shapes every part of our civic life, from the rights we cherish to the laws we live under. We explore the ongoing battle over the meaning and relevance of America's founding document. This Constitution will equip you to engage the most pressing political questions of our time. Join us every two weeks as we hash out constitutional questions together. This podcast is ordained and established by the Center for Constitutional Studies at Utah Valley University, the home of Utah's Civic Thought and Leadership Initiative.