The geopolitical environment is one that, you know, we are not going to be able to influence or control. So it's, how do you work within that? Which are the industries that you want to focus on that are going to be successful, they're going to be hiring that are, you know, going to be growing? So really looking at the landscape and, you know, assessing, where do I want to put my chips? No firm has a moat where they could say, like a pharmaceutical company, where, okay, we have a patent for 20 years, and if you even come close, you know, you know, we'll see you in court. So there's no moat. And so it's, it's culture and that data driven management that they think are the big differentiators.
Andy Weiss:Hi friends and welcome to this episode of now hiring, the podcast about talent, staffing and recruiting, brought to you by the good people at Ceipal. I'm your host. Andy Weiss, Chief Marketing Officer at Ceipal. This is a bonus episode of now hiring, recorded recently at Ceipal Connect, where I was joined on stage by Mark Roberts from techserve Alliance. Together, we delve into the current state of the staffing industry. We cover technology, the economy AI and operations. So without further ado, let's dive into the session. Hello and welcome everyone. I am Andy Weiss, Chief Marketing Officer here at Ceipal and thank you all for joining us today at Ceipal Connect. I'm joined by Mark Roberts, CEO of Techserve Alliance. If you're not aware, TechServe is the premier organization dedicated to the IT and staffing engineering and solutions industry. And Mark and I have had this conversation a couple times over the last several months, and each time it's been dynamic. And Mark, I think we've kind of uncovered at every turn, some nuance, some shift that today, I think it's going to be as fresh and as exciting as every other time we've had this, you know.
Mark Roberts:Andy, I thought we solved all the challenges out there in our discussions, or at least in our minds, we did, but I really always look forward to the conversation with you.
Andy Weiss:Awesome. Well, thank you for joining us and joining me again today. So the last time we sat down and talked about this, the words choppy, uncertain, stagnant kind of came up, and some of this was in direct correlation to tech serves annual study. And so we were kind of doing some extracts from that, but to kind of ground our conversation today, what's changed? What's changed? Definitely landscape. Yeah,
Mark Roberts:so I think what's changed, I think we've seen mild improvement in many quarters, and some more optimism. But you know, uncertainty still abounds. And I think really what's happened is there's been a shift in the key factors that have contributed to the uncertainty. So I think through certainly much of 2024 tail in 2023 you know, there was the fear of the economic downturn, the recession that, fortunately never came. So that was, I think, first and foremost in folks mind. Then there was the overhang of the election, and, of course, geopolitical tensions and complications. And now, of course, we, I think you know, pretty much everyone feels comfortable we've moved past the threat of recession and the economic downturn. We've moved past the election, but there's, you know, continued uncertainty in the overall business environment, you know, and some of that has to do with the shift of administrations, I know we'll talk about has kind of caused some shifts in policy. And, you know, I think businesses are struggling in terms of trying to predict what will be the policy, you know, things like tariffs, immigration policy, things along those lines.
Andy Weiss:So I'm going to, I'm going to put the elephant out there, or the 800 pound gorilla out there, and we're going to address it head on. And here's, I think, here's, as we talked in preparation for today, I think you offered an important insight, and I'd like you to kind of reprise it. And I think it's, it's one where, you know, politics can be polarizing. Presidents and administrations come and go, and the fact in the matter of the business that we're in is we need to chart a pathway through that. And so I think, you know, you gave some good counsel in terms of we, you know, how do we? How do we navigate this kind of, the geopolitical, kind of climate, and what kind. Guidance. Have you been giving your membership that you can kind of surface to this audience today? Yeah,
Mark Roberts:I think first, it's staying informed through attending sessions like this. And you know, some of the information we put out and your organization puts out, Andy and stay informed and and then recognizing those elements that you can change and those elements that you can't but responding, you know, businesses, you know, at bottom, they're all in the, in the in the business of solving problems, of overcoming hurdles and challenges. Certainly successful businesses are, you know, the geopolitical environment is one that you know, you know we are not going to be able to influence or control. So it's, how do you work within that? And I think it's certainly to make sure that you've got you do scenario planning, you know, step back. You know, many in our industry have a have a habit of, you know, working incredibly hard on the day to day in client relations, consultant relations, you know, obviously motivating the team, but I do think it's always important to step back and have strategic discussions with the leadership, maybe even bring in some outside, you know, thought leaders, to do some scenario planning. What, what will happen if our you know, key clients pull back or accelerate. What will happen if you know the you know, the adoption of AI is accelerated within a given industry that has implications, obviously, for those that supply them talent, both for good and for ill. You know, these things are never usually, you know, one sided. They have many dimensions to them. Yeah.
Andy Weiss:So for anyone that has their bingo card and is playing along at home, Mark was the first one that mentioned the word AI, so please put your chip on that, on that square. And I'm going to use, use that the the door that mark just opened around AI, because one of the themes that we've been talking about a little bit today is AI, but also AI, in conjunction with with the human side of it. So I think Mark, you know, as you think about AI, we're not going to get away from it. It's going to, it's going to, and is a continued, continuing to be a major force that's shaping staffing, whether we like it or not, so in your conversations with your members and stuff have, how are you seeing some of the some firms starting to kind of use it in a successful fashion or or playing around with it? Are there any kind of insights that you can extract from, from your base. Yeah,
Mark Roberts:so just talking to folks, I think we really are at that experimentation phase. For most folks, you know, it's just, I mean, if you just think of, you know, how you know chat GBT has not been around for that long, and, you know, really sort of this broad, even though AI and machine learning have been around, of course, for a long time, it's, you know, it's really entered, you know, sort of the popular culture, I think, within last couple of years, and in a big way, but kind of talking with them, a lot of folks are experimenting, you know, you know, allowing A recruiter that may not be super strong in terms of their written communication skills, you know, being able to, you know, redraft their their email communications to candidates. Obviously, it's used in marketing. It has, you know, tremendous potential for really creating leverage in terms of a you know, marketing effort. But it is folks are really trying to figure out, you know, where to spend both their time and their money on AI. And it's, it's early days. I think we have to recognize that and trying to figure out, you know, where are the efficiencies I can capture now? Where do I need to be investing for the future? Well, and
Andy Weiss:I also think it's, it's important not to make it too bright and shiny be and treat it like any other tool, any other system, process, etc, that you have in your in your business, you know, you've got your your financial system that you're using to be a QuickBooks or something else that you're using to kind of manage on the financial side of your business, you've got, you know, other kind of ATS, VMs, workforce, CRM systems that you're using to manage things. But then you're also, you also have printers and phones and other things that are fundamental and so not trying not to put too much weight on it. Yes, it kind of transcends all of those. But it's, I think, a healthy attitude is not to put too much stock into it, but to balance it and look at it across those lines.
Mark Roberts:I. I think that's, that's great advice, because I think if you make it too big, then I think it chills decision making. You know, you're like, you know, where, where should I put all my chips? And I don't, I think you're right. I think it's a tool, particularly at this stage. And, you know, feel free to experiment with it. Fail in terms of things that don't work well. It is not the answer for everything, but but really empower your team to use it in different ways. We recently had a our team had a strategic retreat, and it's like, well, how are we going to continue to evolve in terms of our utilization of AI, how are we going to train our team in terms of use cases? How do we communicate it to others in terms of what works well, what doesn't work? And so really thinking about it strategically. But to your point, don't be afraid. Jump in. There's, you know, obviously, any number of different platforms and ways to use it and, and, of course, you know folks, you know, you know, such as Siebel or, you know, working it into their, you know, into their product line. It's, it is going to be used, ultimately, you know, in our industry, to create greater efficiencies, I think, particularly on the recruiting side.
Andy Weiss:Yeah, I totally agree. And I think you've, you've also kind of opened up a little bit of the door on, kind of the the operational efficiency side of the house. I think, you know, you touched on it a little bit with you, with the retreat that you had, as with your own team, as an organization, but also thinking about it just in terms of, you know, time, effort and resources as we think, as we think about the market and the changes that are that we're all kind of facing from from that standpoint, where are you seeing firms spending most of their time and or potentially wasting time and resources that you know, could be better served in other areas as they're trying to kind of navigate their way through whatever's happening and to their business at this particular moment.
Mark Roberts:Yeah, I, you know, I guess I go back to the recruiting piece that seems to have the greatest opportunity to create some efficiencies, automations and things of that nature. I don't know if I've heard much in terms of lack of success. It's all about experimenting. So I don't think folks have reached a verdict at anything. And of course, these tools are continuing to improve, you know, continually, and so they're not static. So what may not work great today may be totally different a month from now, it's moving that fast, but, but I really do see the recruiting side of of things is presenting the opportunity for for greater efficiencies to taking out a lot of those you know, those tasks that you know have been performed by recruiters and allowing them to be more you know, candidate facing, you know, where, where they Really, where they really provide value.
Andy Weiss:Got it the the so as we look, as a firm looks at at their book of business, and maybe they're, you know, we talked a little bit about uncertainty, some challenges, kind of, maybe some areas are are feeling a little stagnant. Maybe they've got opportunities, but the candidate pools are drying up, like we had earlier. We had a conversation around healthcare, and I know you don't directly deal in the healthcare space, but one of the challenges that they surfaced was, we've got opportunities coming in, but then there's this, you know, there's, there's a talent gap. We don't have enough people to fill those roles, and so they're having to manage that. And I think in in IT and engineering, they're also, you know, different pockets of that as as well. And so as you're thinking about that, and and any kind of thoughts or guidance that you would have to to firms in terms of how they're looking at their portfolio and kind of being able to, to weather some of the that, those ebbs and flows,
Mark Roberts:yeah, no, you know, it's always interesting. You know, it's, it's never, you know, the supply demand, you know, kind of see saw is never perfectly in balance, right? I mean, you know, you'll have, you know, lots of demand and in short supply, and then, you know, it'll shift. And we've seen, you know, I've been through many industry cycles, and certainly see that, yeah, it's really staying attuned. So, you know, we through our event, we partner with a, you know, CIOs, for example. Example, with an organization, CIOs, you know, listen to the technologies that are evolving, you know. So to try to plan, you know, maybe even pipeline, you know, candidates in you know, hot skill sets. So you're totally right, even though it has been, you know, growth was anemic last year, and we're certainly not seeing a hockey stick type recovery. There are absolutely pockets around AI, cyber, things of that nature, that you know, you know healthcare, it that remain very, very strong, where there is a dearth of candidates, and that's kind of in the short term and in the long term. And we, you know, had a phenomenal speaker at our at our event, talking about the demographic challenge we have ahead and and, you know, we and his, his takeaway, which was just phenomenal, is technology is actually going to save us from this absolute labor crisis that we are confronting. And you and I don't have to guess it, you know, I often say, you know, economists, three months out, you know, a flip of a point, demographers, those who specialize in talking about the working age population, they are incredibly accurate 2025 years out, because they know how many babies were born on a certain day, and how many of those will work into the work. It will make it into the workforce. And we know there is a labor, you know, basically a labor crisis coming, and so we're not going to have enough workers. And that includes, obviously, technology has always been an area that has been, you know, under populated in terms of domestic power. So, yeah, it's coming.
Andy Weiss:Yeah, yeah. And that was a phenomenal session for those that did were not at Tech serve. We will, I will find a link to this professor's information. We'll, we'll get, we'll let you, we'll give you information to look up some of his writing and stuff. Very, very interesting, very eye opening. Mark, I have continued to quote that that keynote in multiple conversations, even outside of this space, which so it's really phenomenal. But for those in the audience today, some of the things that Mark's talking about are, are not just US centric or domestic challenges, but these are, these are global things, where you know, this individual and other demographers have looked across populations across the globe. And to Mark's point, these you know, birth rates aren't changing day to day there. There are long, more longitudinal trends declining, and so it's creating challenges and opportunities for those in our space. And this individual had a, had a really cool hypothesis or thesis for, you know, AI and technology being able to save us and stuff. So really, we'll, we'll drop that in, in the
Mark Roberts:show. Totally, really eye opening for me as well.
Andy Weiss:So in addition, like, delving into that a little bit further, like, if you were to, and I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit mark, but if you were to start your own staffing firm today, yeah, knowing what you know, yeah, what? How would you go about building that, that instructuring, that staffing firm?
Mark Roberts:Yeah, well, first I a couple of things, you know. First, I would, you know, ask the question, How am I going to differentiate myself in a crowded marketplace? And probably I would not start just, you know, just, you know, come one, come all kind of, you know, putting myself out, but what's my specialty? Is it an industry? Is it a skill set? What, what's, what's something special I bring to the table, and then I playing off of what we talked about, I would be, you know, super invested in technology and seeing, you know, especially, you know, the problem that you know, folks have, if they currently have certain, certain tech stack, they're, they're, you know, change happens, but it's, it's, it's a process. But if you're starting a new you can really evaluate and, you know, try to leverage, you know, sort of the latest technologies to create efficiencies, operational efficiencies. So those are some of the things I would do. And, and then, you know, the key is, you know, what is your go to market strategy? What? What? What do you bring that's special, you know, to a client? You know this? Yeah, there. A lot of you know it engineering staffing firms out there. So what, what differentiates it? Do you have strong relationships you know that you know would certainly be something that you would want to take stock of. And we see new firms pop up all the time, folks who are typically veterans of the industry, and maybe they work for someone else, and they, they have, they have certain relationships, or maybe they work for a larger, larger staffing firm, and they open up their own operation. So, so those are, those are some of the things that I would look at, you know, what is? What? What differentiation in the market?
Andy Weiss:Yeah, so you talked a little bit about seeing organizations continuing to come into the space, which is, which is really positive, and it, I think it's an indicator of continued optimism and growth. Are you seeing, are you seeing things happening on the reverse end of the spectrum, where, where firms are exiting, or consolidation, what? What's your what's the temperature on that end, yeah.
Mark Roberts:So we, we actually have a M and A, we help facilitate M and A in our industry. So you always do see exits. And a lot of that tends to be, you know, where you are in your career from a, you know, career life cycle perspective. And so we always do see, we always do see folks exiting because, you know, they're ready to exit. So you do see that, and, you know, and, and the other thing that we are seeing is because, at least for the last year, plus, organic growth has been hard. We we actually seeing some increase in terms of the interest of inorganic growth, even among medium and smaller firms, just because it's really hard to open new logos, to certainly open a new market, if you don't have a presence there, to hire an effective sales team. That's, you know, continual challenge in our industry to hire effective sales people. So if you can potentially acquire it, it makes it certainly easy. And so, so we are seeing folks who exit because they're at that point in their career, and then we are seeing new folks come into the space.
Andy Weiss:Great, great, one question that came up from the audience, and I'm just going to read it to you. So what role do emerging technologies, for example, AI, agent, agent, AI automation, play in reshaping staffing operations, and how can organizations stay ahead of the curve in that, in that realm?
Mark Roberts:Yeah, yeah, great question. I mean, the one of the challenges here is it, you know, the word emerging is very appropriate. You know, it's and so this, you know, these, these new products, new services, new add ons to, you know, to existing products. They're coming at a breakneck speed. And so, so it's kind of hard to have a simple answer, but it's, it's to make sure you stay attuned educate, you know. So, you know, webinars, you know, we put one on with X, you know, we'll put experts on, you know, in terms of the, you know, the evolving different technologies, you know, the you know, the problem is, there's many out there, and so you have to have some strategy to even evaluate them, you know, because most people don't have the ability to, you know, you know, basically, you know, evaluate new potential, new products and technologies all day. I mean, they have kind of a day job, you know, which is, you know, servicing clients and consultants and so. So I do think, look for sources of information, talk to others. You know, we're big about the community of sharing. So we have, like, for example, executive roundtables, and the executives share insights. Hey, this worked. This didn't work. This. You should really check this out. So that's often a very good way of at least narrowing the field in terms of some things to look at. So I don't, yeah, go ahead. Do
Andy Weiss:so when you're in your community, are you seeing kind of still an interest in, like people leaning into these emerging technologies and kind of wanting to learn and understand? Or is there, you know, the other end of it is, okay, I, you know, I, I, I've had enough of this. It's overhyped. And, you know, as you're thinking about your own programming and content for for tech serve, it's like, you know, okay, we can over index on the, on the educating people around the emerging stuff, but then we need to back. Balance it with the human side. And so are you seeing that kind of play out in your community? And if so, what does it look like? And how are you how are you navigating that,
Mark Roberts:you know, I you know. Andy, I don't think there's one simple answer, because obviously different folks have different perspectives. I think there may be some sense that elements are overhyped in the short term, but perhaps under hyped in the long term, in terms of the disruptive impact of it, and so that's kind of my take on it. So I think some of these tools are nice to haves and they're creating some efficiencies, but they're not game changers yet. You know, they're not fundamentally altering the landscape yet. So that's how I think, but I think folks are leaning in. But, you know, again, you know, given limited bandwidth, you know, you have to kind of balance it against the day to day and and to your point, this is still fundamentally a people business, you know, it's funny. This is not the first new technology, as you can appreciate. I mean, you know, you know, obviously your product is, was, you know, at one point, you know, ATS is, had not evolved to anything like what they are these days. I remember, you know, sort of dating myself, when the job boards were going to be this great disintermediator. Why would anyone need a staffing firm if you have a job board, you know, because the client will just go to the job board. It was a great accelerator of the industry. And, you know, our industry moved from literally classified ads to job boards, and then systems integrators, and then, you know, you know, obviously technologies like LinkedIn and, you know, so it's, it's, it's really interesting, how you know new technologies to get adopted by the industry? Are there always winners and losers as those shifts happen, there always are, and that's why I think, you know, the stuff you do here in terms of educating folks. The key is, I think that to stay attuned and talk to people, talk to, you know, attend formal things like this, but also talk to people, just have conversations,
Andy Weiss:agreed. And I think it's the challenge for me is, you know, wearing the marketing hat as well is, how do we ensure that we're not over hyping every new thing? Because then it starts to, kind of, it gets drowned out because it's, you know, a little bit of the boy who cried wolf in that. It's, this is new? No, no, this is newer. No, it's the newest. Newest, newest. And it just, it's got a diminishing kind of return on it, which is, which is unfortunate, but it's all super exciting. You know
Mark Roberts:what I analogize it to? Andy is breaking news. I mean, everything is breaking news these days, and it's kind of the same thing. If everything is breaking news, then when it's really breaking you know, you don't pay attention as much. And so I couldn't agree more with you, which is, and it's hard because, you know, I think a lot of companies feel the obligation to have aI worked into at least the marketing material and hopefully the product, but you know it's if you don't invoke it, then you know where you you know you're offering old technology if you're if you're not invoking it. But I couldn't agree more that. I think it would be being more discriminating and really highlighting true innovations, true things that take things, a product, to next level, as opposed to, you know, smaller, smaller chains. Yeah, there's,
Andy Weiss:there's, there's a little organizational FOMO. I think that goes on that if we're not out there saying something that we're not we're not advancing because we missed out on this particular this week's cycle. This
Mark Roberts:this week's Exactly, exactly from from
Andy Weiss:time to time to kind of ground myself. There's, I go back in the way back machine. There's a, I'm completely dating myself now. There's an at&t at Andy commercial that came out there was voice over by the voiceover was by Tom Selleck. So the old Magnum PI for folks, great voice. And it's a, probably the long version of it is like a, probably a two minute TV commercial, that spot. And basically what he does in this at Andy commercial is he's sharing all the technology that came out of Bell Labs. That was the precursor to the commercial version of at Andy. And so he's going through and talking about how one day soon, you will be able to start a TV program on your television and then continue watching it while you will be on your commute and you will be doing, you'll be able to, you know, start a video. You won't have to fly across the country or around the world to meet with somebody. You'll be able to do it, you know, virtually, and have a session where you have multiple people in different locations participating in a conference or a meeting, and then it concludes with, and you'll be able to send a fax from the beach. And the facts, yes, this is breaking technology, but it's, but it's the little things that. And this was, you know, the late 90s when this, this came out, and it was, like, a lot of aha things. But I go back and watch it, and it's, it's things that, I mean, we're doing half of that, you and I today. And, you know, it's so for me, it kind of helps ground myself in the Get out of the breaking news cycle. Get back to the fundamentals, back to the, you know, the question that came from, from the audience, about emerging technologies, understand it, break it down, figure out how it works, right? But ultimately, stay true to the fundamentals of your business. How are you making money? Where are your clients and customers? What sectors are they in? Understanding, you know, the human side of of that equation. Because at the end of the day, the technology is just going to help you, maybe be able to do some of that better, faster, smarter, but without the relationships, we're all out of business. I
Mark Roberts:couldn't agree more. Andy, and I, like a lot of what you said, in terms of go back to the fundamentals. So it's always, certainly in our industry, about the people. It's always about the people, whether it's your internal team, the consultants or the clients. And then the business fundamentals, you know, technology, as to your point is, is it an accelerator? It's can create operational efficiency. But business fundamentals are business fundamentals. And you know, you know where you know, what is your differentiator in? You know, a crowded marketplace. You know, are you a volume shop, you know, playing in the BMS, MSP space, or are you more direct client relationship? How have you structured your team accordingly, you know, and it has implications for margins and profitability and all of those things related to the business. So I agree with you, don't lose sight of the, you know, I think you referenced the bright, shiny object. It can be very distracting, but stay true to the business fundamentals, and then continue to look, how can I create greater efficiencies? Where is my ROI on a particular investment? It's not only investment in dollars, it's investment in time and mind share. You know, we can only focus on so many things. Well, you know, we all like to think we're great multi taskers, but you know, that's, you know, that's usually for things that are important and complicated. That's usually not the case. I mean, so where are you going to focus your your time, your energy, and your dollars for maximum ROI? And then I think you have to have both, you know, a short, medium and long term perspective. So there are investments you may need to make in the for the medium and long term and then, but you also have to stay in the in the near term, you know, to keep the business operations and to pay for all of those things that you want to do in the future.
Andy Weiss:Agreed. And I think here's a, it struck me as you were talking about this, there's, there seems to be, there's a, there's a lot of truisms that that have surfaced in what you were sharing. And I was thinking about our audience today, and your membership, and how you've, you get to talk to a lot of different people, a lot of different and a lot of different firms and stuff, and I'm wondering you know, as you think about the leaders in these organizations, are there common traits, common characteristics, or their ways of thinking that you find as In talking to these folks that have emerged over time that hey, this set of characteristics these types of organizations, because of the leadership that these individuals provide their organizations, they tend to be more successful these on. On the other hand, tend to be to struggle, or have faced more challenges, if you will. So are there kind of clusters of those or common themes?
Mark Roberts:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, what's always fascinating about the industry is, I describe the industry, it's a big pyramid, not unlike a lot of industries, and if you think about it, you know, no one really has any IP. I mean, you know, you get some of the margins with, you know, solutions, but, but in staffing, there is no IP. So basically, every staffing firm has the same tools at, you know, a given point in their life cycle. And why are some firms, you know, maybe don't make it, you know, past 10 million and then we have billion dollar firms in our sector. Yeah, what's the difference? And I can really, I can really sum it up. It is comes down to kind of what you alluded to. It comes down to leadership and management, and so those firms are more strategic. A big differentiator we see, too, is reliance on data driven management. So are you kind of a seat of the pants? And don't get me wrong, I think there's a place for intuition and instinct, but fundamentally, you know, you see the sophisticated firms, and often the firms that grow, and certainly all of the large firms are incredibly data driven in terms of how they manage the business, in terms of all of the key metrics. And so I see that as a big differentiator. And then the last thing I would say, which is the exact opposite, right left brain, is culture. Is culture. You know, you know the you know the you know the famous quote, you know culture, you know you know, each strategy every day, and then is so true in our industry. Again, there's no IP. We don't have no firm has a moat where they could say, you know, like a pharmaceutical company, where, okay, we have a patent for 20 years, you know, you know. And if you even come close, you know, you know, we'll see you in court. So there's no moat. And so it's, it's culture and and that data driven management that I think are the big differentiators with no
Andy Weiss:that's, that's a great, some great insights there. And I think you know, if you're, you know, head of a staffing firm listening today, I think you know, doubling down on your on your culture, and understand and the data side of it, like taking a look at those things, it's easy to get caught up in the AI stuff. AI can help you understand some of the data in your business, but, but that culture piece, I mean, that's going to be, you know, a significant portion of your growth, and kind of a pathway there so great insights. Mark, thank you. So as I'm, you know, sitting here with you today, and I'm kind of, we've, because we've had this conversation multiple times. I'm thinking, okay, inevitably, you and I are going to have this conversation sometime in the next again, sometime in the next several months, I'm assuming so. So I'm going to ask you to pull out your crystal ball, oh, you know, shine it up, and you can pick the time horizon, okay, but at least needs to be, you know, more than I'm gonna say that, you know, three months is probably too short, okay, right? But at least six months or further out, you can pick the time horizon from there. What, what are you and I talking about? What are some, you know, what are some of the adjectives? What are the things that you know are starting to kind of percolate at that time that maybe some, some folks here need to, you know, start thinking about or, or as they're doing their strategic road maps and plans, you know, to pay attention to,
Mark Roberts:yeah, well, I think within that time frame, the big change, to me is what's happening on the policy front, and you know, in so some of these proposed changes, are they? Are they all enacted, or are they rolled back? Whether you know, you know, through, you know, the administration themselves rolling it back, or through the courts, you know, so what? What does that look like? Because I do think it has it settled down from a an ability to has, it has some of the uncertainty been removed, and so that. Yeah, I think is, you know, a question, and regardless of where it lands, you know, and you know, not you're weighing in on one side or the other. But where does you know is, does the business community, because the clients of our members, you know, are the ones who are deciding, do I green light this project, do I put it on hold? You know, you know, what's my, you know, my, you know, capex, you know, for this year? Do I pull back? And all of those decisions, you know, are often influenced heavily by, you know, the perspective of the macroeconomic environment, and obviously, for the specific industry. And so the thing i'll be looking for is whether a lot of that has settled down in terms of, we know what the playing field is looking like, and clients of our members have a better sense of, you know, what they're dealing with. You know, you can just, just look at things like the auto industry, you know, you know, the auto industry, understanding what the landscape looks like will go a long way towards, you know, I think encouraging them to continue to invest in technology
Andy Weiss:well, and I think there's a lot of it. You know, geopolitically, there's a lot of interconnectedness. So regardless of where your focus of business is, regardless of where your clients are in this world, everything's interrelated in some form or fashion. And so I think taking this shorter term time horizon and kind of watching and understanding how things kind of shake out is super important. But then also thinking about, you know, there's another election cycle in the US, in midterm elections, in 2026 and then 2028 there'll be, you know, another major election. And kind of, what, not taking it out of the political side of it, but thinking about it from an organizational standpoint. And what do you want your firm to do, be, act like, look like in 2020 at the end of 2026 and then again in 2028 and how do you connect the dots between here, now, in March of 25 How do I get there? What are the kind of in, you know, external, macro influences. But then there's a decent amount of things that are, you know, within our control mark, you know, I got you to start your own firm. You're navigating now from from 2026 and 2028 I'm assuming you want to be successful and growing in 28 so you're, you know, you're charting that path, and it kind of helps maybe lift out of, you know, all the heavy AI conversation or better, maybe informs some of that and some of the other kind of news worthy or headline making kind of political and geopolitical things. So,
Mark Roberts:yeah, wow. I'm glad you love the easy question towards the end. But I first, I'm very bullish. I mean, I think we sit at the intersection of, you know, talented technology. I mean, it's a great place to be, but it kind of goes back to what we were saying earlier, really mapping out your your clients, and, you know, which are the industries that you want to focus on that are going to be successful, they're going to be hiring, that are, you know, going to be growing. So really looking at the landscape, and, you know, assessing where do I want to put my chips? Obviously, I do think, certainly, 2026 2028 I'm really looking at technology and how it can accelerate my business. And then, you know, continuing to do those things that we know are differentiators, managing by, you know, data, making sure I have data, you know, benchmark against the industry. Where can I improve? You know, that concept of continuous improvement, you know, how can I continue to improve? Because these are, you know, these are, you know, fairly narrow margin businesses, and being attuned to how I can maximize, you know, my business, both in growth and profitability, are critical for the future. Awesome.
Andy Weiss:Well Mark as as build, I think we, we we crushed another phenomenal conversation around this topic, and I'm looking forward to I enjoy these with you. They're easy and fun to prepare for your I love catching up with you and talking about, you know, the trends and stuff in staffing and talent. So I just want to say thank you for joining us. Us today. And yeah,
Mark Roberts:thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. And I hope there's not a recording of any of my predictions, because I really don't like to be accountable, you know. So, you know, it's much easier just to pontificate so but really enjoyed the conversation. Andy,
Andy Weiss:thank you, wonderful. Thanks, Mark. And thank you to everyone else, take care. A big thank you to Mark for joining me on stage. It's always an enlightening conversation when we get together, be sure to check out the techserve alliance and all the great resources they have to offer. And if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out the now hiring newsletter for more industry insights and strategies until next time we are now hiring you.