Inside Tier4’s Blueprint: Recession-Proof & H1B-Savvy || Season 2 Episode 7

From Tech Stacks to Talent Wars: Tier4 COO Robert Bouchard on Future-Proofing Staffing

In this no-fluff episode of Now Hiring!, Tier4 Group COO and “H1B Guy” Robert Bouchard joins host Andy Weiss to pull back the curtain on how a boutique staffing firm is navigating massive transformation—technologically, operationally, and globally.

You’ll learn how Tier4 blends automation with human intuition, why they say “no” more than “yes,” and how they’re building a recession-proof business by doubling down on hybrid work, niche verticals, and ethical immigration advocacy. Robert doesn’t just talk about the state of staffing—he shows you the frameworks, pitfalls, and mindset shifts that make the difference.

Plus, we unpack the H1B gold card debate, explore what employers really need to know about immigration in 2025, and spotlight why 92% of Tier4 placements are still thriving two years later.

If you care about scaling sustainably, leading with clarity, and winning the global talent game—this one’s for you.

If you like the Now Hiring! podcast, we think you'll enjoy our newsletter, also called Now Hiring! You can sign up for the newsletter here. 

Transcript

Robert Bouchard: 0:00

In this industry, we want to say yes to everything and everybody. Ultimately, our leverage in terms of taking on what we deem as the right business is our ability to say no. Do we utilize technology to close those gaps, or do we utilize our people to close those gaps? Or is it both? What it immediately does is monetizes us residency, and that, ultimately, to me, is a very slippery slope.

Andy Weiss: 0:42

Hi friends and welcome to this episode of Now Hiring!, the podcast about talent, staffing and recruiting, brought to you by the good people at Ceipal. I'm your host. Andy Weiss, Chief Marketing Officer at Ceipal Today's guest is Robert Bouchard, the COO of Tier4 group. He's also known as the H1B guy, and we'll be getting into that one. Robert and I also dive deep into what it takes to build a future proof staffing firm, from balancing Tech and a human touch to navigating immigration policy and even learning how to say no strategically. So. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Robert. Robert, welcome to Now Hiring!

Robert Bouchard: 1:21

Hey Andy, thanks so much for having me and really excited about our conversation. Awesome.

Andy Weiss: 1:27

Well, to to help kick us off, why don't you share with us little bit about Tier4. I know you guys recently were recognized as one of the Q4 rock star recruiting firms, so congratulations on that. But why don't you share a bit about Tier4 for us?

Robert Bouchard: 1:44

Yeah, absolutely. We are a woman owned and diversity certified staffing firm located in Alpharetta, Georgia. We do have what we like to call hubs throughout the East and Midwest, including here in Atlanta, Boston, DC, Central Florida, Milwaukee, Chicago and our Dallas and Austin, Texas locations. We have been in business for a little over 11 years, and was founded by Betsy Robinson, who is our CEO and and President. I came to Tier4 starting in 2021 and what we like to call the post pandemic emergence in staffing, and we've just been on a really wild ride Andy since then, we specialize primarily in technology, but some finance and accounting administrative professional services, focusing primarily in financial services, insurance, supply chain, manufacturing, healthcare and E commerce and retail. And we have the saying where we like to say we love to blend and balance technology and automation with human touch.

Andy Weiss: 2:58

So what does that? Let's unpack that. What does that mean? Yeah, for

Robert Bouchard: 3:02

those of us in the staffing industry, the last five years has really been what I would call an arms race in the tech space. We've seen really the evolution of generative AI, adaptive, adaptive cognitive AI that has really taken over our space, and that means a lot of different things to a lot of different folks, but for us, what we we like to think, is it helps us create an opportunity to serve as a centralized point of contact. The applications that exist right now in the current market are, on average, we see anywhere between three to 4000 applications a month across our postings. And if we look at what that means for a normal human recruiter, which, on average, can get through 150 to 200 of those a day, it's created a lot of bottlenecks and issues for us and identifying the best talent that's available, not only through the application process, but through general outreach and communication as well. We love to hire senior folks Andy, and so what that allows us to do is bridge the gap with industry veterans as well as some of the latest technology and an organization like Tier4, where that's benefited us is we've been able to be on the front or leading edge of adopting tech or, as we like to say, fail, fail fast, learn faster. We've tried a lot of things that have worked, and we've gotten rid of a lot of things that haven't worked. So finding that balance Andy is what I really meant by the comment. Okay,

Andy Weiss: 4:38

so walk me through that, if you will. Like, how do you talent and recruiting coming off the pandemic, things are exploding. You want to automate. You want to bring tech in there. What's the not an uncommon problem, but it sounds like you guys have cracked the nut a little bit. So. What? What's that vetting process like? How do you decide what to bring in? Because you talked about, kind of the importance of the human component in here. So where do you bring the tech in? How do you evaluate it? What's, what's that process been like for Tier4?

Robert Bouchard: 5:18

Yeah, that's a great question. I think for us, we started on this journey, I'll say two and a half years ago at this point, and through word of mouth and a lot of research, reviewed and evaluated, I'll say, about 100 different platforms that currently exist, not only in the ATS CRM space, but also in the AI and agentic space as well, and also platforms that create automations and connectivity between all of those entities. And what we did is we started out with a very small group within our team, where we brought to them the technology that we were giving really heavy consideration to, and asked for their thoughts and opinions, not only to gain their buy in, but also for them to help see and realize that this is not only investment in the business, but an investment in them, because we're all searching for more time Andy. And the beautiful thing about technology is, if leveraged correctly, can create opportunities to focus on outputs that create more results. And that is something that we've really focused on, is creating buy in amongst our team, which, when we've gone through the implementation phase, allows for buy in past that. Okay, so

Andy Weiss: 6:47

what was their initial reaction? Because it sounds like that was a little new to them. Yeah,

Robert Bouchard: 6:56

I think the initial reaction is excitement. But how you envision this perfect Utopia environment to exist, and what happens in implementation are two different things completely. And so I think setting honest expectations that what currently exists is not perfect, but as long as we're progressing and really looking to get it right over time versus get it right the first time. So it is about trial and error and iteration and figuring it out, which sometimes can be very frustrating for the team and for us as leaders to go and say, This isn't right. Let's solution or reverse engineer backwards and then leveraging those that can advocate on our behalf to help move that because our scenario is different than others that exist and what our workflow needs to look like to create perfection for us may not be the case for for others that are looking to do similar or the same types of things that we are. So I think ultimately you have to have champions within the team that really creates buy in amongst the rest of the group. And so we've identified what we call subject matter experts, or sort of pod leaders, that have helped us not only identify those gaps, but solve and create solutions for those so

Andy Weiss: 8:26

with the champions and andor pod leaders, I have to imagine, you know, the rest of us listening to this conversation and and having myself been through other kind of tech evaluations, like you want to bring, you know, the larger constituency into the process, but then the risk is you have a lot of different voices, and finding something, a solution or an approach that answers every question, solves every need, as you alluded to kind of It's, you know, that silver bullet does not exist. So Did, did the champions or those pods kind of help quiet, kind of the or not quiet, but manage all the different voices and kind of the the different groups or different kind of needs and kind of help you as an organization coalesce behind here's the direction that we ultimately need to go, and the hows and whys. Yeah,

Robert Bouchard: 9:26

I think some of the things we've learned along the way is that it's okay to not have a clearly defined process and workflow, but working towards that, that progression that I mentioned earlier, and identifying what needs to become our best practice for our processes, we have to rely on the folks that are doing it day to day, and I am absolutely indebted to our leaders that have helped us get to the point that we are and they know who they are. And. Uh, without them, we, we wouldn't be where we we currently are today, which is on this two and a half year journey. We're seven, eight weeks into our tech transformation from from post implementation go live. But what we've realized in this last six to seven, eight weeks Andy, is that it's okay if it isn't right today, but at future state we want to be progressing towards getting it right. And I know that sounds repetitive, but it really comes back to a mindset of gaps are going to always exist. And our choice becomes, do we utilize technology to close those gaps, or do we utilize our people to close those gaps? Or is it both, and we've taken the approach that a balance between the two is the key to what our future state as an organization looks like, not only in technology and staff augmentation, but just in the people and talent acquisition business as a whole.

Andy Weiss: 10:58

Yeah, well, it has to help, I imagine from not only the adoption but also retention of your own staff. But then I saw on the Tier4 site that you guys have a what is it? A 92% kind of placement ratio, success rate, where 92% of your candidates who yes, are retained, get the job, are there for at least two years after that. So balancing that people side and being able to kind of have this path forward sounds like it's doing wonders for for Tier4.

Robert Bouchard: 11:35

Yeah, as you alluded to in terms of the certification, another thing that we are really excited about and brings validation to everything that we're talking about Andy is our net promoter score hovers around 96% and when we look at a net promoter score of 96% in a service based industry that deals with people, is really an impressive number, and honestly, I have to give all the credit back to our team, and that's because they're the ones day to day that are finding commonality, building trust and rapport, to ultimately create relationships and partnerships that last This business and industry as a whole can become very transactional, and that is one of the things that Betsy and I have been very adamant about that, that our industry and how we operate need to be viewed completely different, and we'd rather take a short term loss to create a Long Term win, not only with a candidate, but also with a client. And ultimately, the validation in that is our repeat return customers, our candidates and clients that come back to tier four group because they know that from a service perspective, there is transparency. And what we want to do is help them solve their problems. And that's what what really, if you look at staffing as a whole across our industry, the underlying purpose of our industry is to help organizations solve talent gaps, and so that's something that we honestly work every day. We like to say we ruthlessly prioritize those things that are most important daily, and getting that 1% better on the day to help those, our clients, and help our candidates. And that's one of the things about this industry that has always kept me coming back Andy, is that there is fulfillment in it. There's fulfillment in changing careers, changing lives, changing organizations, and the direction of those organizations because of the talent that they can acquire. And then the other side of that is we get paid to do it, and

Andy Weiss: 13:58

that's aspect of it, right? Yes, I love it. I love it. I love it. So one of the things that excited me about having you as a guest is you bring a passion area, some experience to your role at Tier4, and some of the other things that you do around immigration. And I think, you know, we're in this kind of interesting kind of time period now where the job market and kind of openings and stuff, even before 2025 what, there was a lot of volatility, and now there's seemingly even more. So what's you know as you wear your your different hats, and we'll kind of delve into your, your personal passion stuff, and the H 1b, Guy bit in just a second. But it but from a from a Tier4 lens, like, how are you guys looking at the market and opportunities and managing your way? We've talked about the technology. Stack side of it and maintaining the people side, but now you've so you've got that in place. How are you guys driving through and evaluating and looking at opportunities in the marketplace? Yeah, that's

Unknown: 15:10

a great question. I would start with being intentional with who our ideal customer and our ideal candidates are and those verticals that they operate in. So we're really intentional about we do financial services technology, we do insurance technology, supply chain, manufacturing, healthcare and E commerce and retail. That's what we do, not that we don't have clients that we support that are outside of those industry verticals, but that's where our subject matter expertise comes into play. Those are the pools that we draw from on a daily basis. And so I think what we've decided collectively as an organization is to get very intentional with not only our verticals, but then our locations to which we support within those verticals, and as we evolve with the market, it becomes a matter of diversification across the portfolio. And what I mean by that is Tier4 Group, as it started out, was primarily a boutique business, meaning most of the work that that Tier4 Group did pre 2021 was on the perm direct hire. So over the last four years, we've been very intentional in creating a fairly even split between our what I would refer to as our boutique perm, direct hire initiatives, and then our contingent, temporary staffing that falls within more of the mid market to enterprise level organizations, and so creating that diversification across the two Betsy and I have a saying where we like to Say we're creating a staffing firm that is pandemic proof, and now that term could be a staffing firm that is recession proof. And the reason for that is how important that contingent aspect is to our business well. And I

Andy Weiss: 17:12

think that's a great insight, and I want to double click on that a little bit, because I think there's some nuances in here, I think also coming off of the pandemic that has been seemingly very deliberate and focused for you all. And you talked about kind of this, you know, this focus and being intentional. But I think it's from whether it's direct, higher and contingent. But then I think it's also, I'd argue, in the verticals that you're playing in, that you've added and created a larger portfolio. So it's not you've, in essence, insulated yourselves from any volatility in any one particular vertical. So you've got some some variety there, and you've got the variety of direct hire and contingent. So it's you've created a little bit of a matrix organization. And I think the what was really fascinating from listening to you talk about it is, that even though you've developed this, you know, larger portfolio or diversified approach, you're you still understand here's where we want to play and trying to stay focused, still laser focused on those areas, and not continuing to potentially dilute yourselves too far so that you're, you're nothing to anyone, and you can't deliver on your value proposition. So, yeah, is that been a strategic focus, or how did, how did you evolve to this point? Yeah, I think it's, it's

Robert Bouchard: 18:59

really both strategic and organic, and I would say strategic in the sense that holistically, when we look at it, we realize the things that we do really well, and we also realize where there's opportunities within those verticals that we have had a lot of success with. The organic component is really following our customer and client where they are too. And so that's created an opportunity from a territory, geography space, where Atlanta was our, where we were founded, where a large percentage of our customer base existed pre 2021 but now, when we look at our geographies as a whole, in Atlanta as a percentage of that, it's created, kind of, to your point, a diversification across our portfolio, and ultimately, that's where the organic play is has come in.

Andy Weiss: 19:57

Okay, so are you in s. It's drafting geographically off the relationship so with your clients. But is that also taking you into other verticals or, like, with, okay,

Robert Bouchard: 20:10

yeah, because I think

Andy Weiss: 20:12

okay, because I think for a lot of folks, it's okay. I'd like, you know, I'm really good. I've got a sweet spot in this particular vertical or this particular geography, but what do I add next? What bet do I place? What? How do I if I want to be or aspire to be, like a Tier4 Group, how do you know what's the next thing? Where do I put my time and energy, and what bets or bet do I play? When

Robert Bouchard: 20:39

you asked me that question, there was something that came to mind immediately, and this is in our industry, one of the hardest things to do Andy is tell prospects or clients No. In this industry, we want to say yes to everything and everybody, and that's something for us that we've realized in the last few years is that not all clients and candidates are created equal, and ultimately our our leverage in terms of taking on what we deem as the right business is our ability to say no, and I think that's something that in a shifting market, as you alluded to at the beginning of the question, can create really opportunities for you to say yes, because you're in a situation where the no maybe hurts more than the yes Does.

Andy Weiss: 21:40

Hey everyone, I hope you're enjoying this episode, and if you like what we're doing here at now hiring, I invite you to check out our newsletter, also called now hiring. You can find registration for that@sequel.com and now back to our episode. So if you come, have you developed a process for saying, No, like is it? Does it go up the chain and somebody gets to play the note card. And then, how do you, you know, what does that look like? Yeah,

Robert Bouchard: 22:05

I will have to tell you that this is something that I know Betsy has worked Betsy Robinson, our CEO, has worked very, very diligently on, and it's following a framework, a framework with an if then, and sticking to that if then, framework becomes key, because if the if is no, then the then is no, right, those two things go hand in hand. And so look, there's a lot of different sales frameworks that exist out there. We follow. Medic is the one that we utilize and leverage. And I think if you are intentional about what your ideal client profile is, your ideal candidate profile, and you have those, if thens with the flow charts related to it makes it easier to make that decision quickly. Yeah, because the longer that you dwell on it, and the more that you allowed what we like to say kind of fester, if you will, the more difficult it is to say no. Yeah.

Andy Weiss: 23:11

Well, it strikes me that having a framework in place, and I imagine the first couple times saying no was was a challenge that, but now that there's a framework or you've adopted, you know this, this what if, and kind of more of a scenario plan side of it, there's some comfort level in it, and there's some consistency in we're saying no for the right reasons. And so you in essence, there's going to be some natural remorse, but it helps you kind of navigate through it and stay consistent. We said no to this for this reason, so the next time this type of option or situation comes up, we need to stay consistent with that, unless other things around it have changed.

Robert Bouchard: 23:57

Yeah, it's the justification, right? And it allows reason to take over. And I think when we look at I had an analogy of 2022 in our industry was an account executive in the staffing industry in 2022 could open their front door and catch 10 job orders. But a recruiter in 2022 could walk around their entire neighborhood, bang on every door and ask every one of their neighbors, and that would all be, no, I'm not interested. And we've seen a swing go from the other side of if we look at 2024 data and and what that looked like compared to 2022 it was the opposite. You could open your front door and you had 10 neighbors lined up looking for opportunities, but you could walk around the entire neighborhood asking if anyone's hiring, and no one was why, because of economic shifts, market conditions and. Factors. And when we look at there was a talent acquisition race that happened in 2022 where there was a lot of remote hiring that took place. And as we've seen, the return to Office trend go from one to two days to three to four days now is the norm. We've also realized that most, most professionals, are looking for some sort of hybrid type arrangement. And the data tells us that that number is around 60% which is really crazy if you think about how quickly that's happened in the last 18 to 24 months, where folks would not even consider a hybrid type arrangement. But now the data tells us that that it's 60% of candidates are looking for a hybrid type arrangement where they have a couple of days in office, but then the flexibility to have a work from home, remote office setup as well.

Andy Weiss: 25:54

Yeah, it's, I think some of it is the realization that as an employee, you're we are less in control of the situation, but as an employer, you know the other side of it is, it's hard to put the remote piece back in the bottle, because, You know, for through the pandemic, that was the norm, and we got used to some of those ways of life. And so there is, there's benefits to each side, and there is, and I think, you know, the next several years are going to be interesting in terms of what that, what that looks and feels like. And I think

Robert Bouchard: 26:37

employers that are getting it right are offering the right blend for the individual based on the need of the role and the responsibilities. And I think that solution, or what that policy or best practice looks like varies depending on the organization, the location and the individual specifically and that team collaboration that has become so important. The other shift that we've seen in our industry as a whole is the amount of in person that's taking place. If we go back just a couple of years, I mean, we look at all of the events that are happening, and all of the user groups and meetings and those things are really back to what I would call 2019 era happenings that That, to me is in the last six months, we've seen that just dramatically change, where the in person, being out in front and being out in the community is is key, and If you're not doing that, you're missing out on opportunities. And I think that, along with the return to Office, really has been a dramatic shift Andy in the last 12 months,

Andy Weiss: 27:51

yeah, I would agree. And I think staffing is versus a lot of other industries, is so heavily influenced by macro and micro economics. We've already talked about technology, we've talked about kind of the relationship between employer and employee and in remote and hybrid work. I think the other kind of component that comes into play is the globalization of industry and the workforce, and this is my way of delving into immigration. And immigration has fueled a lot of those job opportunities before, and now, you know it's we're seeing some shifts in terms of immigration policies, not only in the US, but in other countries around the globe, as economies are trying to adjust to this post post pandemic world and marketplace. So what are you seeing, you know, putting your your immigration, your H, 1b guy hat on, you know, what are you seeing in the crystal

Robert Bouchard: 29:03

ball? The war on talent globally has never been at a higher level than it is today. And if we go back and look at the data specifically around birth rates, 1.9% across the population here in the United States. And what that means we look at the aging population of the workforce, we look at the male demographic number, that male demographic number between 22 and 32 that isn't working. And when we look at what where those gaps currently exist, and how are we going to continue to lead innovation and the technology arms race that we've prided ourselves on as a country since our founding comes back to immigration as a solution. I. Um, it's not the only solution for that, but it is one of the primary ways for us to go about identifying and winning that war on talent is to create opportunities and pipelines. From a global perspective, we look at the emerging economies that that exist, or countries like India and China that have the highest population rates in the world, but also looking at their advancements in technology, their advancements in education, and how that when we peel it back and look at how we compete here in the United States, we still are the number one destination globally in the world for advanced education, in order for us to continue to be that, we have got to identify and offer pathways that lead to work authorization. Here in the US, there are a few avenues that currently exist, but those avenues that currently exist, most of which are built on laws that were written in 1990 Wow. If we think about technology in 1990 and compare that to technology of 2025, two completely different entities, right? Andy, so I think when we look at what is the current immigration system look like as it relates to high skilled employment based immigration? There are a lot of areas of opportunity for us to improve the system that currently exists. It's always

Andy Weiss: 31:37

prohibitive. Yeah. So is a solution. So is a solution monetizing?

Robert Bouchard: 31:42

That's a great that's a great question. My answer on that is no, and you know, I'm assuming you're asking that question based on I'm

Andy Weiss: 31:53

leading into a gold card. Yeah, Gold

Robert Bouchard: 31:56

Card news, right? So I launched the H 1b guy.com and the H 1b Guy YouTube channel in on June 29 of 2020, okay. And when I launched the platform, I had identified that most folks that were talking about high skilled employment based immigration were immigration attorneys, or they were immigrants themselves. And my background has been in technology, recruiting and staffing. And I built and managed a very large immigration program for a large staffing firm here in Atlanta. And through that, became a subject matter expert, expert in H, 1b, visas and other work authorization statuses. Through all of that, I gained exposure to the Green Card backlog. And for those who aren't familiar with what the Green Card backlog is, there are caps based on country of birth, for employment based preferences. Each year, 140,000 employment based green cards are issued in the United States to individuals who are sponsored by an employer, or there are some that can self sponsor from an employment based perspective. But I won't muddy that waters, but know that there is a 7% cap that is put on country of origin. And when we look at international students as a whole, India and China lead that in terms of the percentage of individuals that come to the US to get their US, Master's degree or higher, they're the highest percentage the demographics for international students. Or India and China lead that race. They also make up a little under 90% of the total number of H 1b visas that are issued annually through the H 1b lottery. And so, because of those two aspects, when you look at employment based green cards, which is, there's three steps to the the employment based Green Card sponsorship, permanent labor certification, being the first of those steps. Ultimately, if you are an individual from India or China, and you're looking at there's four different categories within employment based preferences, EB one, EB two, EB three and EB four, the majority of individuals fall on either EB two or EB three, from an employment based sponsorship perspective, and we look at wait times for individuals from India, specifically 15 to 20 years Andy, wow. We're talking about the individuals in the Green Card backlog have to have to wait in order for their date to become current, their date, meaning their date that their perm labor was filed and subsequently certified. And so I share all of this, because ultimately, what happens is those individuals are living and working in the US on an age. Visa, and it is restrictive in the sense that they are tied specifically to their employer. And some of these individuals have lived and worked in the US 1012, years and are still waiting in the Green Card backlog. Their children have aged out of their dependency status, and it's created another gap, which is referred to as documented dreamers, and ultimately that is a talent gap to where we're losing out on as well, because we're telling kids that were brought here as legal immigrants, that are US educated, that they no longer have authorization to live in the US.

Andy Weiss: 35:44

Yeah, these are not, these are not, in essence, short term stints, but these are individuals who have come and built careers and lives and livelihood. Have had families, homes, you know, built communities.

Robert Bouchard: 36:03

They're your neighbor. They're my neighbor. And I think that the biggest thing Andy, that the average American like you and I thinks that immigrants on work visas go to the DMV to renew their visa. And that's not the case. It's very complex. It's very complicated. It's very expensive, from a legal and filing fee perspective, not only having an immigration attorney, but also the filing fees for the government as a whole. And you know, as at the time of this recording, we're on the back end of the H will be lottery for fiscal year 2026 closing, which closed back on March 24 selection notification started and went out around March 28 and continued through March 31 and the H 1b portal application portal is Now open and will run through June 30. USCIS raised the filing fee to $215 the registration fee to $215 per individual this year, but still, demand seems to be relatively high. I've not seen final numbers. I've speculated that there would be somewhere around 400,000 registrations this year. Some of what I'm hearing is that number is going to be significantly less. I think they're expecting it to be somewhere under 300,000 actually. But I think that's because when you look at a $215 non refundable fee with no guarantee of selection for 85,000 available visas, 85,000 H, 1b visas that are made available each year, 60,000 for individuals with an international advanced degree, and then another 20,000 that are have a US, masters or higher. So when you look at the total pool and the probability, it's extremely low, 18 to 20% selection probability,

Andy Weiss: 38:01

and like, how many of us would go and spend $215 on a lottery ticket that has no option for winning, let alone whatever the Mega Millions are power or 20% chance

Robert Bouchard: 38:12

of winning, right? And if that 20% chance is to occur, I've had the saying that, look, the value of an H, 1b, Visa has never been higher. And so, to bring it full circle, back to the Gold Card question, you know, that's why, when you look at what was put out, ultimately offering 1000 gold cards at $5 million per the value of that is extremely high. And I think what that ultimately starts to create, though, Andy, which is a very dangerous and slippery slope for us, when we look at our immigration policies and immigration reform as a whole, is it's creating a pay to play system. Well,

Andy Weiss: 39:00

that's where I was going with because, like, so the gold card, my understanding is, the gold card is for you. You talked about the different EB levels, and the gold card comes in at EB five, which you did not mention. So that's kind of reserved for fast tracking, you know, especially given the price tag on it. But it's a, you know, you're talking rare air, but for and a lot of exclusivity there. But if that's what's coming in at this EB five kind of investor level, then does it have the potential? Let's say it, let's say it works. And policy takes, takes time, but maybe there's a way to kind of accelerate some things, and, you know, opening up Pandora's box on the pay to play. But does that cascade down? Is there a price tag on an Eb, 432, A, one, that it's less of a, you know, right? Random lottery. Or, you know, does it, does it help normalize and solve the issue? Or, in your mind, does it create more risk and chaos to the system? Yeah,

Robert Bouchard: 40:10

I think what it immediately does is monetizes us residency, and that, ultimately, to me, is a very slippery slope when we talk about monetizing us residency versus creating a pathway for skilled based immigration, and when we look at what employment based preferences are intended to follow, are the best and brightest, and in order for us to continue to attract the best and brightest, monetizing us residency, to me, is not the path for success. Now, is there an opportunity, as you mentioned, the EB five investor visa when we talk about goal cards at $5 million per I would assume that individuals that have the liquidity to be able to afford a visa or a gold card at that range have some sort of entrepreneurial or investment background. But I think the difference between those two Andy is that we are commoditizing a visa or residency, versus it being a privilege well,

Andy Weiss: 41:25

and I think, yes, agree with you. And I think the the important, an important piece that we have not brought into this part of the conversation, but we've talked about earlier, is the global economy. And you mentioned the birth rates and stuff. And you and you touched on kind of the US and and the birth rate here, but birth rates globally are also in decline. And so, you know, trying to commoditize or put $1 value on us, residency or citizenship, it's, it sets aside or ignores the challenges that other countries and other regions are having in terms of their own demographics. And so now it's a well, where do I want to live? Where do I want to pay to participate? And now you've got this. It's, it's, there's not a single economy of residency, but there's a, you know, we've, you potentially have other countries, other regions, kind of trying to monetize their own and you've exponentially exploded this thing,

Robert Bouchard: 42:33

right? Yeah, I go back to, like, the Nomad visas that exist in Central and South America, which are really intended for the Nomad tech worker, not only the Nomad us tech worker, but the global Nomad tech worker. And so quality of life is key. And the thing about our immigration system, when we look at how h1 Bs are issued annually, how they are restricted to a limit of years, six years total, and unless there is employment based Green Card sponsorship that allows them to then extend their time, we don't make it easy for high skilled immigrants to establish their roots as it already exists, and ultimately it creates this, like I said, the difference between monetization and privilege, the commodity and the privilege aspect to it. And so for me, what I would love to see is a cleaner pathway for international students who come to the US, who are US educated. President Trump hit on this earlier in the election cycle, but pre election cycle where he talked about establishing employment authorization documents for those that do have a US masters or higher, and one of the things that I've talked about a lot in my reform recommendations is creating what I'd call an H, 1b, E, A, D, which is for individuals who are US educated, who do graduate and then identify opportunities where they are working in a perm full time capacity that then give them a pathway to longer term residency. Because what happens right now when we look at the way op T and op T STEM work is that it's a very finite period of time, between 12 to 36 months, depending on the type of degree that those individuals obtain. And once that period of time is up, if they have not identified a sponsor, if they were not selected in the H 1b lottery, we give them a wave and tell them see you later. And I think to me, when we look at talent gaps that exist. Business and the talent that we're allowing to come into our country, that we are educating, but then we're turning our backs on and saying, but you can't stay here. Yeah,

Andy Weiss: 45:09

well, it's, it's the equivalent would be, if you are new hire, and I spent time and energy training you to do your job, and then as soon as you finish the onboarding, Bucha, bye, yeah. And letting that, letting your, letting my time and energy, and you walk out the door, that's an interesting challenge. So we've been talking about immigration, kind of at the 50,000 foot level, and we went really deep on this. What I'd like to do is kind of bring it back to, you know, firms like Tier4 or others in the space where they may or may not have somebody like you on staff that you know understands immigration and the challenges and stuff. What, what should those types of firms? How should they be thinking about immigration? What should they be doing to, you know, on a day to day basis, to kind of stay abreast of what's going on.

Unknown: 46:12

I met with a client a few weeks ago, and they asked me a very similar question, and my response to them was a question in return, and it was quite simply, you have to ask yourself, is the cost of acquisition or the cost of losing this individual greater than the cost to do a new recruitment? And ultimately, it comes down to if you're going to pursue work visas, H, 1b, specifically as an avenue to do staff augmentation, because you can't identify talent that already exists, you need to do a cost analysis, and that cost analysis is not just your legal and filing fees Andy, it's the time spent where maybe that individual is not working, the time spent in the recruitment that exists, and then the time spent, as you mentioned, you know, onboarding and training that individual and getting them up to speed. So it's time and money. There is an analysis that has to take place. And if you're an organization, whether it be a staffing firm or an employer, and you're looking at really, what is the overall cost analysis, not only just from a true monetary expense, but also from a time expense. And you look at those two things, if it is justified for you to create a sponsorship opportunity, then that would be where I would advise you to seek legal representation, and you need to have an excellent immigration attorney. While I may be an immigration expert, I am not an attorney, and I don't pretend to be one, and I am very adamant about I help employers and individuals solve complex work authorization issues in the recruitment process, but a legal representative helps you with the documentation and the legal and filings of those and if you need a representative, because one of the things I can tell you is that if you get into this space, the government will come looking, and they will do their audits, they will do their site checks, and you need to have everything above board, and if you cannot, or that is not something that's feasible or possible for you in terms of justifying the recruitment of the individual, justifying the cost and the legal prevailing wages that go into employing an individual on a work visa, then don't consider it.

Andy Weiss: 48:50

Got it? Great advice, great guidance. And I think Robert, you've shared with us today a bunch of insights, not only in terms of how to think about tech stacks, but also you know how to say no, how to navigate, navigate immigration, and H, 1b sides of things, and you've really helped unpack what, what the current landscape is. So thank you for that. And I, you know, one more question for you, kind of a little bit lighter in tone, but you know what's curious? What's the most important book that you've ever read?

Unknown: 49:25

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think for me, it's evolved over time. But I have to give my sister in law some credit here, as she gave my wife a book, and the name of the book is subtle art of not giving a bleep. And I read that in 2020 when the world was really crazy, and it changed my mindset on a lot of things. And ultimately, I have a saying here in our environment, and it's we have to. Control what we can control. And ultimately, I control my attitude and my activity or my effort. And I think when I peel it back to that book as a reference guide four plus years ago now, it really had an impact on me. You know, he has a blog, and I know that there's been a movie put out. I've not seen the movie, but I've read the book two times now in the last couple of years, and I think it just comes back to understanding who I am, and really the pursuit of trying to leave this industry, the staffing industry as a whole, better than I found it. I've worked for and with a lot of great people in my journey in this business. Going back now, I hate to say it, almost 18 years I've been in this industry, actually more than that, if I go back to my pre staffing firm days of where I was recruiting for a technology based company, a lot has changed in that time. Andy, but I think I come back to knowing who I am and what I'm looking to accomplish, and how I do that through my platform and my people awesome.

Andy Weiss: 51:17

I love that. I love that answer. And I haven't read the book. I think it's a, it's a great recommendation for for our audience. And I think I love how it also, you know, we've talked about saying no, and now we've talked about, you know, how to not give an F. And, yeah, I think that's, it's kind of a great kind of synthesis of of our conversation today. So Robert, thank you for your time and the wonderful conversation. And everyone, please connect with with Robert on LinkedIn or through the H1B guy or at Tier4 Group. And until next time we're Now Hiring!