Distraction Dive

Burnout is a Structural Failure

• TrueRedRevenge & Naam del Apiz • Season 2 • Episode 3

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Red & Del discuss and reframe burnout as structural failure with heavy stats and personal anecdotes. This dense episode covers everything from staffing shortages, to the job market, to why teachers and doctors feel the pressure of this failure the most. 

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00;00;02;15 - 00;00;17;17
Red
You. Hello, hello hello, everyone, and welcome back to Distraction Dive. My name is read and I simply don't believe anything the voices are telling me right now.

00;00;17;19 - 00;00;22;15
Del
My name is Del and I am the voice. So he's right to do that.

00;00;22;17 - 00;00;22;29
Red
Oh.

00;00;23;02 - 00;00;25;04
Red
Fuck!

00;00;25;04 - 00;00;47;15
Red

Del, we're we're fresh off of the episode of Remote Viewing. And we got, we started talking a little bit about, like, work and burnout. And I wanted to talk to you today about how I don't think burnout is a personal problem. And I think that burnout is a structural failure. Dale, I already know the answer to this.

00;00;47;15 - 00;00;51;17
Red
But for our dear listeners, what is your experience with burnout?

00;00;51;20 - 00;01;04;12
Del
Never had it in my entire life. I have, and blessedly recharged 100% of the time by everything I've ever done, especially the things I enjoy and do as a day job. Why do you ask?

00;01;04;15 - 00;01;09;07
Red
That was not the answer I had anticipated. Sorry, I autocorrect.

00;01;09;11 - 00;01;23;22
Del
I've been burnt out. I've been burnt out within the last. I've been burnt out within. There should be like a fucking bar. Like burnt, burnt out peoples anonymous like thing. Because like I, you're always. Once you get that way, you're always burnt out. You're always a burner.

00;01;23;24 - 00;01;45;20
Red
Yeah, yeah I've been burnt out a lot in, in my life and you know, I, I want to talk about, you know, we talk about structural failure a lot actually, not in so many words. Not as like a and I think maybe we've talked about it a little bit on this podcast, but I want to get more specific today.

00;01;45;20 - 00;02;00;07
Red
Actually not big picture. I want to tell you I want to tell our listeners that burnout is not a personal or a moral failure. And it is actually, in fact, a structural one. Do you find that you blame yourself for burnout?

00;02;00;10 - 00;02;32;15
Del
I think inadvertently, I think probably, yes. But I never would say that, you know, like, I am here, I am feeling burnt out and it's my fault. I think that probably, I struggle to mix up, like, when I'm feeling burnt out, justifiably in my mind. Right? Like justifiably, quote unquote. Versus when I am maybe like, you know, I'm having a bad day or like, I'm being lazy or something, right?

00;02;32;15 - 00;02;50;19
Del
And like, maybe it's like the language that I'll use in my head, like my burnout. I feel like I just like, let things like, percolate too long and then I get too stressed out to manage them. And then I'm like, this is my fault. I'm doing so bad. But, sometimes I, you know, that's often, I think more often than I, I don't know.

00;02;50;19 - 00;02;59;08
Del
So I think that maybe that's like what my I know that that's what my burnout looks like in many cases. So, it's like. Yes, but unless I until it, unless I mean, reframe it.

00;02;59;10 - 00;02;59;26
Red
Gotcha.

00;02;59;29 - 00;03;01;08
Del
If that answers the question.

00;03;01;09 - 00;03;19;00
Red
So like when you're resting, for example, you're like, I should be doing something. I should be less lazy, I should be less, you know, whatever that that's like how you, you kind of blame yourself or like, guilt yourself about, burnout or maybe not even recognizing that it's burnout, but maybe you've gotten better at it. But like, I, I certainly that's not true.

00;03;19;02 - 00;03;50;11
Red
Yeah. Okay. I, I'm the same way. And I wanted to look at, this like an engineering problem. In engineering, a structural failure is defined as when a structure or component of a structure loses its ability to ability to support the loads it was designed for. Which leads to issues like bending, fracturing or collapsing. And so I wanted to ask myself, what, why and how is our current structure bending, fracturing and collapsing?

00;03;50;11 - 00;04;08;01
Red
And in this little essay, I've written, failing, let me frame it up real quick. Let me tee it up so that we can kind of, get the snowball effect going here. I want to define what I mean by structure. So for our purposes today, the structure is the United States specifically, because that's where I understand the most about burnout.

00;04;08;03 - 00;04;25;27
Red
And it's, it's the US specific mix of corporate leadership and, capitalism's need for constant growth, workplace culture and the institutions that we all pass through, the how the system is set up and designed to to take care of us or not.

00;04;25;29 - 00;04;26;25
Del
You got my attention.

00;04;26;29 - 00;04;53;10
Red
These are the load bearing frames that, you know, this is how we live and this is how we work, and this is how our work informs how we live. It's that structure. Right? So one thing I found super fascinating was that the term burnout is actually very recent. It was introduced in the 1970s by, Herbert Freudian Berger, and it was added to the World Health Organization's International Disease Classification, ICD 11.

00;04;53;13 - 00;05;06;21
Red
For anybody that's curious to look that up, but it's defined as an occupational phenomenon and not a medical condition. That's a quote. They did that and that that happened in 2019.

00;05;06;24 - 00;05;09;28
Del
Where they said it's an occupational phenomenon, but not a medical condition.

00;05;09;28 - 00;05;14;29
Red
And added it to the World Health Organization's, international Disease Classification.

00;05;15;02 - 00;05;15;29
Del
Interesting.

00;05;15;29 - 00;05;39;19
Red
Yeah. So while burnout and added stress have led to a lot of, like, actual medical issues, which I'm not getting into today, it isn't necessarily something that can be treated medically. According to the W.H.O.. It. Yeah. So the only conclusion you can come to is that means it has to be treated systemically, or structurally.

00;05;39;21 - 00;05;44;04
Red
And so our question maybe. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Prevention is.

00;05;44;04 - 00;05;45;04
Del
Primary prevention.

00;05;45;05 - 00;06;03;21
Red
Right. Like like like a virus almost. And so our questions about burnout should change to suit the nature of the problem, not the symptoms of it. You know, in your professional life. I know you understand this. Yeah. This is what you do.

00;06;03;23 - 00;06;05;01
Del
Allegedly.

00;06;05;03 - 00;06;25;01
Red
Allegedly. So let's let's talk about scale. And as I go, I'm just going to keep going. Dale, you interrupt me when you have when you want to chime in. Okay. Because this is going to be very dense. And I'm going to repeat how dense this is a lot because listeners and, Dale, if you need me to slow down, let me know.

00;06;25;04 - 00;06;25;22
Red
Right. Yes.

00;06;25;23 - 00;06;29;02
Del
Clarification. Now we got I got you okay. Yeah, yeah.

00;06;29;05 - 00;06;48;02
Red
So scale there's going to be a lot of numbers in this episode, all of which are cited in the description of whatever platform you guys are listening to this on. And numbers are just they're are scary and also very good at embarrassing us in in March of in March of 2020.

00;06;48;05 - 00;06;49;12
Speaker 3
Yeah that's.

00;06;49;19 - 00;06;50;02
Red
True.

00;06;50;02 - 00;06;52;02
Del
They are in this picture and I don't like it.

00;06;52;06 - 00;07;17;00
Red
Oh I'm in March of 2020, Forbes reported on a Gallup poll that showed that 76% of employees experience burnout on the job, at least sometimes, and 28% said that they are burned out very often or always. So that was back in 2020. That was, you know, that was at this point six years ago. And I can't I couldn't find anything where the numbers had changed like that.

00;07;17;00 - 00;07;22;01
Red
I could trust the numbers, on on how they've changed. But I imagine that they've changed in 20.

00;07;22;04 - 00;08;02;19
Del
So this is very interesting. I wasn't expecting necessarily this angle or to have something about this to say so early because of my day job, I actually, burnout is a really, really, really, really common. And, important theme in it. Specifically, the physicians commit suicide a lot, at a rate that is above the, average, people in their age and demographic basically across demographics and ages because, basically, yeah, the job, and burnout is the one of the most commonly retroactively assessed reasons for people that are doing the postmortems on this sort of thing.

00;08;02;21 - 00;08;26;04
Del
Physician burnout is like a particular that. Yeah. That's just in this particular sort of sector. So it's very interesting. It's so commonplace. There are huge numbers by specialty that I, you know, like the lowest number of people that are reporting burnout, it's like 45% is the lowest and it's as high as, like some degree that people are going to like.

00;08;26;04 - 00;08;31;00
Del
I've read most recently, the highest fields are reporting as high as 80% of people.

00;08;31;03 - 00;08;33;00
Red
And, physicians specifically.

00;08;33;06 - 00;08;35;08
Del
Yeah. At a particular set.

00;08;35;10 - 00;08;57;02
Red
I'm so glad you brought that up, because we're going to talk about that a little bit later. That is part of the structure that is, that is failing and not physicians failing. Physicians are being failed. The top reasons like, like so, so kind of in a weird way that the suicide, the suicidal ideation is very common as a burnout symptom.

00;08;57;05 - 00;09;08;14
Red
And relatable. Right. And so and I'm really sorry to hear that. I wish that were not the case for you. That's a very, you know, it's a hard thing to hear. You know.

00;09;08;17 - 00;09;17;23
Del
It's kind of like. Well, I appreciate you saying that, honestly. It's like one of those things I just I just kind of feel like I'm that kind of it, you know? I'm just like. I'm like, oh, like having a bad day, a little bit of passive, you know?

00;09;17;23 - 00;09;20;19
Red
It was like, I guess I'll just kill myself.

00;09;20;21 - 00;09;21;23
Speaker 3
Right. It's like, it's.

00;09;21;23 - 00;09;30;18
Del
Not even like, this is like, this is just on me. I'm like, this is just in my toolbox. I'm like, I'm hungry. I don't want to eat. What if I just died? And you know what I mean? Like, it's just like, you shouldn't do that.

00;09;30;25 - 00;09;31;16
Red
And listen.

00;09;31;21 - 00;09;33;02
Del
It's not a path to walk.

00;09;33;05 - 00;09;50;01
Red
No. And and listener like, if you are feeling this way, please seek help. I will there will be resources in the description about this because I, I get into this a little bit more later. Just to kind of give us more of a foundation to work from so we can understand what these numbers really, really show.

00;09;50;01 - 00;09;55;24
Red
The numbers are the numbers, but the effect of the numbers is what I'm most interested in.

00;09;55;24 - 00;09;59;07
Del
And the narrative as spelled out by the numbers. Basic.

00;09;59;07 - 00;10;25;16
Red
Correct. And, you know, so to continue building that foundation, the top reasons for burnout in that, survey across all ages in that study were kind of exactly what you would expect. Like 24% say they don't have resources or the right tools for the job. 20% cite the poor economy impacting their well-being at work. 19% say that they're taking on too much, due to labor shortages, which we will also get into that here in a little bit.

00;10;25;21 - 00;10;28;29
Red
But so is this tracking for you so far? Are you. Oh, okay.

00;10;29;00 - 00;10;33;19
Del
Big time. Oh, yeah. I was just about to ask, is there an all of the above?

00;10;33;21 - 00;10;54;28
Red
I'm. I assume that there probably was. Maybe. But I think they probably had to. I didn't get to see what the survey looked like, but I assumed it was like, hey, ranked choice voting guys, who do you want to elect? And it's the top one is I don't have the right resources or tools. The city of Townsville, we're doing ranked choice voting.

00;10;55;00 - 00;11;23;10
Red
If only. And then one thing you might find interesting and not something I necessarily want to spend too much time on because of the, again, the density of this episode, in that same Forbes article, the piece quoted, Jason Gammel and I hope I pronounced that right. Gammell, he's the president and CEO of Ardagh, who stayed on their website of us who stayed on their website that their mission is to, quote, connect, protect and effect the timeshare industry.

00;11;23;12 - 00;11;26;12
Del
That's so vague and ominous.

00;11;26;15 - 00;11;35;10
Red
And here's the thing. I actually did a little bit of digging on that website, and I do not know what it stands for. I could not find an answer of what RDA stands for, but they always.

00;11;35;12 - 00;11;39;24
Del
Recommend a resource to development association. I was right to be nervous.

00;11;40;00 - 00;11;44;20
Red
I literally googled that and it did not give me an answer. I'm so glad you found the answer. Thank you.

00;11;44;20 - 00;11;47;07
Del
Oh, I hate this. Sorry. Go on.

00;11;47;09 - 00;12;20;27
Red
And his quote was this, quote, employees should make a plan to maximize their existing vacation benefits. And the timeshare industry plays a key role in supporting this. By encouraging more frequent and extended vacations, timeshare owners typically enjoy longer and more regular trips compared to the average U.S traveler. End quote. So not only are they in blaming the employee for their burnout, they are giving them an ad for the idea of a timeshare, which I may I might write an episode on timeshares, by the way, but like that's a different topic for another time.

00;12;20;27 - 00;12;21;17
Red
But wait.

00;12;21;18 - 00;12;32;08
Del
Wait, so you're telling me they're basically like, you would be able to enjoy your life more if you could take a vacation? Here's a flexible way to do that. Sponsored by me.

00;12;32;10 - 00;12;33;11
Red
Correct? And you.

00;12;33;11 - 00;12;33;25
Del
Said.

00;12;33;25 - 00;12;44;10
Red
Poor bitch. Yeah it was. And he didn't like, you know, that wasn't explicitly said. But I mean, that statement is so, cause of marketing that it. Right.

00;12;44;15 - 00;12;46;02
Del
That's proper grimey.

00;12;46;05 - 00;13;05;01
Red
And this is after they give you all these numbers about how many people are burnt out in 2020. And this isn't the article, this isn't the only article of its kind either. It was it was a consistent thing. Before you and I were even born, to blame employees for burnout. Right? Like, they would just call it laziness.

00;13;05;03 - 00;13;16;01
Red
They would call it like, oh, you're not showing up to work. You're showing up late. You're you're lazy. You're the shame. And this is a logical fallacy that will get addressed with the remaining information I have for this episode.

00;13;16;04 - 00;13;18;11
Del
Children don't want to work these days.

00;13;18;11 - 00;13;19;24
Red
Over the decades, baby.

00;13;19;24 - 00;13;20;13
Del
All over the.

00;13;20;13 - 00;13;21;21
Red
Decades, every generation.

00;13;21;21 - 00;13;29;16
Del
Should be required to see the oldest known mention of that in a newspaper article, like, as a part of their education. But anyway, yes.

00;13;29;16 - 00;13;33;19
Red
Wasn't it like the early 1900s? Wasn't it like 1920 or something like that?

00;13;33;24 - 00;13;37;18
Del
Late 1800s and early? Dude, is like the oldest one I have seen.

00;13;37;24 - 00;13;39;21
Red
Yikes. Yeah.

00;13;39;23 - 00;13;46;18
Del
The dangers of nostalgia. It'll be a, it'll be a topic for me one day, but. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I'm on the hook. Please continue.

00;13;46;21 - 00;14;04;14
Red
No. All good. So I really had to struggle with finding an angle on this episode that wasn't just me venting about how burnout sucks and how capitalism sucks and all that stuff, so I, I decided that I had to ask myself a lot of questions, the first of which was, how did the structure lose its ability to handle the load?

00;14;04;21 - 00;14;10;21
Red
So out of curiosity, before I give you my what, I think my answer is, what do you think the answer is?

00;14;10;23 - 00;14;38;19
Del
Well, within what I feel comfortable remarking on, to give a concrete answer, it's going to be just into my own field. So health care for physicians, it's a combination of negligence and willful ignorance. Driven by people. Just like chasing the bottom line. What do I think it is specifically? You know, we sell health as a product, as a service, as a as a privilege, not a right.

00;14;38;21 - 00;15;07;24
Del
And in the case of that, basically you subject if you add secondary gain like profit as a motivation to do something like this, like selling anything, ultimately you get these like optimizers that want to cut cost or do whatever, but that cost on a spreadsheet is, you know, the resources, you know, it's staffing ratios. In a hospital for, nursing nurses, nurse assistants, patient care techs, and everything on, you know, a respirator, everything.

00;15;07;24 - 00;15;30;02
Del
Right. That's just in a hospital, let alone, like, staffing the same positions, and their analogs in clinics and stuff like that. Right. So then you basically are trying to get the next, so, you know, less one less person. The stuff still needs to get done. And so you're getting a bunch of people that are in their job out of a sense of like some sort of, like internal motivation to do something good.

00;15;30;02 - 00;15;52;05
Del
And so you're basically either through negligence or through deliberate design, playing on their sense of guilt to do that thing and not let it fall through the cracks and spending less money on it from the top angle. If I am to summarize as best I can what I think causes physician burnout nowadays. Yeah. And then like, more people doing less things.

00;15;52;08 - 00;15;52;17
Red
Yeah.

00;15;52;17 - 00;15;55;20
Del
So sorry. That is, less people doing more things, I should say.

00;15;55;23 - 00;16;11;00
Red
Yeah. Carl, I'm so excited for your your insight in this one, because we'll get to the physician and clinician stuff, here shortly. Basically, what you're touching on is, first of all, I would argue that it's by design. I would argue that, capitalizing on people's guilt is by design. But what you're.

00;16;11;02 - 00;16;11;18
Del
I agree.

00;16;11;19 - 00;16;18;08
Red
But in big picture, it's like capitalism's insatiable need for only growth and only profiteering.

00;16;18;10 - 00;16;20;07
Del
Unsustainable.

00;16;20;09 - 00;16;40;28
Red
It it is what it is. And all you have to do to see this is look at any any earnings report from any public company. And you will see the words growth and loss. A lot. So I looked at a, I actually looked at a quite a few earnings reports for this episode. Okay. Okay.

00;16;40;28 - 00;16;42;21
Del
And sorry.

00;16;42;26 - 00;16;51;17
Red
Me too. I stuck with one example that I'm familiar with, much like you are with, the physician burnout. I took a look at my former employer. That's by.

00;16;51;20 - 00;16;53;20
Del
The Ben. Ben.

00;16;53;23 - 00;17;06;13
Red
And one thing I found interesting is that BestBuy noted that, fiscal year 2020, fiscal year 25, which was technically 2024 for them because they work their fiscal years are one ahead.

00;17;06;15 - 00;17;17;00
Del
They do their years the way that, like Madden and FIFA released their video games for 20 FIFA 24 comes out and, yeah, the end plus one basically. Right?

00;17;17;03 - 00;17;43;17
Red
Yeah. And they said they said, fiscal year 25 had 52 weeks compared to 53 weeks in fiscal year 24. The company estimates the impact of the extra week in quarter four of fiscal year 24 added approximately $735 million in revenue. Not entirely relevant, but a single week bringing in almost $1 billion shook me to my fucking core.

00;17;43;17 - 00;17;44;26
Red
Dell.

00;17;44;29 - 00;17;58;23
Del
That's so like, like. And then I just know some absolute dipshit in that company unironically is like, man, if we can only lobby to make the year not end, then we could make Q4 even more profitable by adding more weeks to the year.

00;17;58;25 - 00;18;17;07
Red
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And, you know, like it was just how the calendar landed, right? There was an extra base based on it because the the fiscal weeks always start on like the first full week of a month or what have you. And so you know, it, it did add there were an extra seven days I was there during that year.

00;18;17;07 - 00;18;40;25
Red
I was working there during that year. And I remember they were talking about this, and I just kind of sat there with it and I was like, that's, that's crazy. And then I decided to remind myself how crazy it is. But I digress, from, bring me the News.com and also from my firsthand experience, the retail giant announced its first sales growth in three years as it revealed its second quarter results on Thursday.

00;18;40;28 - 00;18;44;04
Red
This was published back in August of 2025.

00;18;44;06 - 00;18;51;10
Del
Okay. It's approximately December 2025 right now. At the time that we're recording this, listeners, for.

00;18;51;10 - 00;19;10;01
Red
Context, yeah. And this will be released in January of, 2026. So, they notched $9.4 billion in sales from May to July, which represented a 1.6% increase compared to the year prior. And what they did, what did they do to go up?

00;19;10;04 - 00;19;10;16
Del
Yeah.

00;19;10;16 - 00;19;12;20
Red
What do you think they did to maintain that kind of growth?

00;19;12;20 - 00;19;14;15
Del
Dell lay people.

00;19;14;15 - 00;19;24;22
Red
Off straight up, straight up. Another series of layoffs, which, they always, always when I was there, they always sent out an email calling it restructuring.

00;19;24;24 - 00;19;32;07
Del
Yeah. That is the work of one Jack Welch. Neutron Jack. Don't worry, he's dead.

00;19;32;10 - 00;19;46;29
Red
And in 2025, Best Buy said it, quote, incurred 114 million of restructuring charges. End quote, in the quarter that coincided with, an enterprise wide restructuring initiative.

00;19;47;01 - 00;19;49;29
Del
We fired a lot of people and saved money. Number go up.

00;19;50;01 - 00;20;08;14
Red
Yep. With much of the costs coming from employees, termination of benefits. And then I was there when they did it the year prior. There were three years in a row where they did a restructure because they didn't profit as much as they did in 2020 until I think, 2025, I think they might have actually bought out. Right.

00;20;08;17 - 00;20;27;05
Red
And then this is a quote from The Verge. A similar kind of restructuring occurred in 2024. And that that, you know, The Verge reported that. But I'm also reporting that because I was there, I watched I watched good people that go that year. I watch people that, you know, we're keeping me in that building lose their jobs.

00;20;27;05 - 00;20;30;26
Del
And their health insurance and like their immediate prospects.

00;20;30;26 - 00;20;49;01
Red
Now, these are these were very, you know, skillful people. So they were able to bounce back and they I've checked in with them and they are all doing so much better than they were at Best Buy for what reason? There's they have the support they need. And here's the thing. I also know that Best Buy is not the only example of this, right?

00;20;49;01 - 00;21;08;15
Red
You you hear about larger layoffs all the time, especially in the tech industry right now with the advent of AI. We we hear about it from Microsoft, Apple a little bit. Stuff like that. And I only dug into Best Buy as one example, not because targeted villain of the week is fun, but because the numbers show the pressure, right?

00;21;08;15 - 00;21;18;16
Red
They got $9.4 billion in sales from a may to July, so they were cool with spending 114 million to restructure to get rid of all those people. Right.

00;21;18;18 - 00;21;48;05
Del
And I this always blows my mind when it happens. But I'm just curious how much did they spend on corporate retreats and stuff like, like this is like a more rhetorical question, unless you, like, have the finger off hand. Obviously, I don't, but like, you know, like more than or equal to that, a bunch of fucking garbage that they didn't need for them to go and like, be able to book first class flights sponsored on the company dime to go to their retreats and stuff, to go to fucking, Minnesota and to back to their, various micro and macro markets on that.

00;21;48;10 - 00;21;54;19
Del
Yeah. But okay. Yes. Operations costs though, where we recouped from restructuring.

00;21;54;21 - 00;21;55;17
Red
Right, exactly.

00;21;55;17 - 00;21;58;14
Del
I'm, I'm making a jerk off motion with one of my ten to.

00;21;58;16 - 00;21;58;27
Speaker 3


00;21;58;29 - 00;22;23;13
Red
That is true. Can confirm, and, you know, the lay off defenders will say that it's to save the company and to ultimately, protect more jobs than it's lost. But these are people who won, I don't believe are real. But also to the psychological effects are being completely ignored in that argument. The stress, the instability, the the service failures when stores are understaffed.

00;22;23;16 - 00;22;38;23
Del
It's a dumb business argument for those reasons. Plus also it's like, yeah, you're saving that. This is like doing chemotherapy to somebody that is like already mostly burdened by a lot of other illnesses. And is 95 years old. It's like I'm saving the other jobs. I'm like cutting off the limb to save it. I'm like my guy.

00;22;38;23 - 00;22;42;25
Del
You only have four limbs. Like, how many times are you going to do that?

00;22;42;27 - 00;22;53;09
Red
And all of that stuff, having, employees constantly burned out, undercuts even, like, their bottom line, right? They're not selling.

00;22;53;09 - 00;22;54;15
Del
Down quality down.

00;22;54;15 - 00;23;06;26
Red
Right. They're not going to be making as much sales. People are going to walk out more people are going to be less happy with the service. And, you know, and it and then it makes the experience of the people who survived the Thanos snap unbearable.

00;23;06;29 - 00;23;08;14
Del
Until we do it again, until.

00;23;08;14 - 00;23;10;16
Red
We do it again and again and again and.

00;23;10;16 - 00;23;12;10
Del
Same time next year, boys.

00;23;12;12 - 00;23;21;13
Red
Right. And so you know that that is how the structure is losing its ability to handle the load. That that is the answer I came to anyway.

00;23;21;14 - 00;23;45;16
Del
So so you're what I'm hearing you say is basically each time that they cut people do the Thanos snap and, restructure. So if they fire a bunch of people, right, to raise the the to raise investor confidence, the stock value at the end of a financial year, every time they do that, it is eating away at the company's structure, or ability to actually accomplish its goal, sell its product to do so in a way that actually functions.

00;23;45;19 - 00;23;46;11
Red
That is correct.

00;23;46;11 - 00;23;55;29
Del
And so, yeah, eventually that is going to like butcher's bill comes do and eventually the thing will fold like you can't. It's like playing Jenga. Eventually the tower is standing on nothing.

00;23;56;01 - 00;24;26;04
Red
Right. It's it's it's what you said earlier. It's unsustainable. And what you said even earlier about, staffing issues with for physician burnout. Right. Like that is that that cutting people's jobs, not letting people do their jobs or not supporting people in doing their jobs is how the structure of start begins to, crumble. And and this is also how we start getting what I, what I'm calling cultural bending, which is the glorification and incentivization of, oh, right.

00;24;26;04 - 00;24;26;26
Red


00;24;26;29 - 00;24;29;27
Del
Yes. This is such a fucking thing in medicine, too.

00;24;30;03 - 00;24;44;15
Red
Yeah. So, you know, I, we grew up in a place where people quantify their worth by how many hours they were spending at work. I work 80 hours a week, so I don't have time for X, Y, or Z. I don't have time for my kids. I'm working really hard.

00;24;44;17 - 00;25;00;26
Del
I reverse the maximum to the X to the exclusion of all other things, and that is to be admired for some goddamn reason. Like that's a win for me, and you should be proud of me. And the that's what you should observe. Unless and not that. Like structurally this is it's very odd that we're opting to do this.

00;25;00;28 - 00;25;23;01
Red
Right or it's it's worse. And you tell me if you've heard this one and I'm sure you have, people will say something like, well, when you've worked 2,000,000,000 hours in a week, come talk to me then like that. Yes. Shit. Right. We do this to each other. Nobody benefits from this keeping. Yeah, nobody benefits from your overwork more than your corporate overlords.

00;25;23;01 - 00;25;35;11
Red
No one. I don't respect you more for it. And you should respect me less. In fact, if I'm saying shit like that, I don't care how hard your grind is, you're not taking care of yourself. And it's making you a worse person to be around.

00;25;35;13 - 00;25;51;25
Del
And, like, I don't like it. It's just so weird to say that. It's like. It's like so like this bad thing. Like you have to have suffered before you can, like, I don't know, like I always come back to this comparison, but I'm like, this is like an arguing. This is like later arguing against seat belts by being like, well, like people before died in car crashes.

00;25;51;25 - 00;26;08;10
Del
And it's kind of unfair to them. Or like, talk to me after you died in a car crash, and then you can talk about if seatbelts are worth having. And I'm like, right. But like, do you get how like we could just not have car crashes, right? Like if we can choose to like instead restructure things to not have the car crash in this case, this is,

00;26;08;12 - 00;26;10;21
Del
Anyway, yes, I have heard this bottom line.

00;26;10;21 - 00;26;29;12
Red
Yeah. One of my favorite to your to your, point there, one of my favorite trolley problem means is it's the trolley. But behind it is a bunch of bloodied bodies. And it said, would it be fair to the people who already died to divert the trolley? Now? And I think about that all the time.

00;26;29;12 - 00;26;31;03
Del
Right. Rent free in my head. Yeah.

00;26;31;03 - 00;26;56;16
Red
You should you should divert the trolley because people suffered after Covid, the influencer economy slapped, like a glitter filter on that kind of talking and called it the grind or the hustle. And, you know what? It fucking sells. How how often have you seen somebody where like, I'm on the grind shirt or like, or even somebody say that unironically in a video somewhere online.

00;26;56;18 - 00;27;20;29
Del
Oh, I so I am a person that does a lot of, like, like I will watch or consume a lot of, like, Penguin zero content, like, I was like, I was like, as like a background thing. And one of my favorite topics to just separately from that is like alpha related people. Bro. Yeah. And it's that like, and I just find it very funny.

00;27;21;01 - 00;27;38;06
Del
Got so many things about it that I find, like, funny because you're like, oh, you know what a high value person if you're not making a certain amount and like therefore you have to be grinding in the pursuit of that anyway, like, I just that kind of quantitative or quality thinking really kills me for a lot of other reasons that I'll tell.

00;27;38;06 - 00;27;52;03
Del
Like that would be revealing some personal information about me that I don't want to put on the mic. But remind me, I will come back to that thing. But yes, bottom line. Absolutely. I know people who do this, and I think that it's so stupid in, I think, a similar way to what you're describing.

00;27;52;03 - 00;28;05;01
Red
And I'm kind of glad that you brought up alpha male terminology, because being a high value or high quality person and, and tying that directly to overwork is insane, because being over.

00;28;05;01 - 00;28;12;09
Del
Worth as a person is your net worth fiscally. Like you're just skipping straight to there. I don't think you're supposed to say that part out loud.

00;28;12;12 - 00;28;33;15
Red
Well, right. But it's not even just that, right? It's it's you're damaging your body, your family, and other systems. And, you know, while there are some C-suite folks that might also be on the grind, they're grinding in a completely different world where they can have private health care and a golden parachute. And for the rest of us, the reward of our overwork is a pat on the back.

00;28;33;19 - 00;28;42;21
Red
And then months later, a restructuring announcement. That's not something I have a study on, but I it is the perception of people for years. Yeah. Now people will say that.

00;28;42;21 - 00;29;14;00
Del
That's wage theft. But yeah, yeah. Honestly to that I have a weakness for one type of sports ball and that is soccer. And as you know, my Tis research indicates that I must absorb as much as I possibly can about it in any possible context in any time, because, you know, so over many years of doing that, I have like noted and like especially after having, you know, part of my job necessitated my training necessitated 80 100 hour weeks for some years on a fixed income kind of deal, as you know, that's an impossible challenge.

00;29;14;00 - 00;29;38;04
Del
Stop saying, as, you know, dull. Okay. So, basically, if you are doing the kind of work that professional athletes are putting in, like training hours, like your work week is that many hours, take a look at, like, fretting for forgetting about compensation. And these people are making like the at the top most level in like England at the highest level, the bottom tier players are making 50,000 pounds a week.

00;29;38;07 - 00;29;39;11
Red
A week.

00;29;39;14 - 00;29;46;27
Del
A week. That's the bottom tier players, right? Like the there are players like at Real Madrid. I know that there are people who after tax are pulling down like a million a week.

00;29;46;27 - 00;29;49;02
Red
Multiple holy shit.

00;29;49;03 - 00;29;50;23
Del
Pounds, pounds.

00;29;50;25 - 00;29;51;27
Red
Oh my god.

00;29;52;03 - 00;30;29;16
Del
So whatever. Right. But they're whatever. Like but all of this infrastructure is around them. LED sports, physiotherapy, massage therapists, then nutritionists, exercise scientists, data scientists, overhead views, cameras, angles to like, you know, load bearing, load management, injury management, sports psychologists, all this stuff that goes into optimizing the condition so these people can bounce back and basically sell you the, the bread and circuses of the, of the Premier League at Wigan, worth more and more and more and more and more matches that are shown and less and less rest less and less rest for the players, which is a huge problem with player burnout and, physical injury rate occurring in sports

00;30;29;16 - 00;30;49;15
Del
ball. And this is where these people have huge amounts like multi-billion dollar industries are around, just like keeping these people supported in optimal performance condition. So if that is the case for people who are doing who are still like wealthy and have all of the access to the privileges and benefits and stuff like that, and honestly live in civilized parts of the world where their health is also guaranteed, right?

00;30;49;15 - 00;31;13;14
Del
Even if it's, you know, whatever. Right. If those people are having noticeable measurable effects, increase injuries, more burnout in every capacity. Where do you rank most of us who are quote unquote, not high value people or whatever? That is such an eerie thing to me. I just, I find that thing so worrisome. Like, you're just not like, this is such a wrong ass lesson to take from this.

00;31;13;16 - 00;31;27;19
Del
He's like, oh, I should grind more. And like, I'm a high value because I, like, was willing to suffer more. I don't know, like, you've heard me talk about the mouthwash analogy where I'm like, it's like people want to have mouthwash with alcohol in and out because it's it actually doesn't help and has like risks to it that are whatever, like cons.

00;31;27;19 - 00;31;31;08
Del
So people just want it to burn because otherwise they don't feel like it's working.

00;31;31;08 - 00;31;32;21
Red
It feels clean. Yeah.

00;31;32;23 - 00;31;46;07
Del
I'm like you. You just sound dumb to me, I guess, because like like if you want to do that, that's fine. But, like, why is it that it is becoming such a thing that you're marketing and making part of your domineering ethos and as a society, and how does it make you.

00;31;46;09 - 00;31;50;09
Red
A better filter? Other people. Yeah. Like how does it make it that. Yeah.

00;31;50;11 - 00;32;10;00
Del
Yeah, exactly. Like exactly. Perfectly. But like like this doesn't make you better. If anything, this maybe like, this ad vest doesn't change. Like, we're on the same level at worst. Kind of makes you dumb or worse, because at least, like, I don't know, like, I'm not putting it all into, like, I'm just, like, pilled on the idea that my value is my net worth.

00;32;10;00 - 00;32;26;17
Del
My value as a person is my net worth. The concept of net worth, which has existed for far less time than the actual concept and history of people who presumably still had value at that time. I don't know, like, it's like it's easy to say and obvious and all of sounds dumb, but then I hear people talk about this grind setting.

00;32;26;17 - 00;32;30;08
Del
Sorry, this like absolutely set me off. Yes, I completely.

00;32;30;11 - 00;32;31;10
Red
Know they connect.

00;32;31;10 - 00;32;31;28
Del
With, like you're saying.

00;32;31;29 - 00;32;55;23
Red
This is exactly the kind of, conversation I was hoping would spring for this. Because the next thing I wanted to talk about was the next question I asked myself, which was who funds the structure, who keeps it in demand? And the assholes that. But also the answer, the right. The answer is all of us who are working all the way up to the very top to a degree.

00;32;55;25 - 00;33;09;15
Red
And what happens when good workers get caught? They tend to have to find another job right? Yeah. So, Dell, tell tell me, what do you think the job market looks like now?

00;33;09;18 - 00;33;18;08
Del
Well, despite the amount of labor, the Labor relations and Labor Board people that have been fired, relocated or otherwise pressured bad. It looks bad.

00;33;18;10 - 00;33;20;15
Red
They tended to be. Look at infinite.

00;33;20;17 - 00;33;23;06
Del
Infinite growth is not infinite growth thing.

00;33;23;09 - 00;33;24;01
Red
No, I.

00;33;24;01 - 00;33;42;26
Del
I guess we all saw this statistic at the start or recently at the end of 2025. But it was like if you take out the growth of the, the United States economy, energy, if you account for AI data center growth, and remove that as a business like for what contributed to the US economy's growth. It did not grow.

00;33;42;26 - 00;34;13;25
Del
It shrank by about 1%. Or like point one or it only grew like, oh point 1%. All of the growth, like 99% of it was AI data centers that drove everything. And it's inflating the it's inflating the numbers in a way that is very obvious when it was reviewed by the, labor relations. Sorry, not liberals, but yeah, the Department of Labor, like that hired and labor and everybody whose job it is to basically look at this, in an official capacity, crunch the numbers and say, this is what you're going to say, and this is what the state of the Union is like.

00;34;13;27 - 00;34;17;27
Del
It's it's bleak. Yeah. The job market is particularly fucked.

00;34;18;00 - 00;34;54;10
Red
Right. And we I have a lot to say on the AI stuff. There's, there's an app for me too. I'm still working on an episode, about that, because there's so much to talk about that it might be a pretty long one, but, you know, to get, I digress. LinkedIn's Workforce Confidence Index survey surveyed over 30,000 U.S professionals, and they used a scale that ranges from plus 100 being the most confident to -100 being the gloomiest, for workers actively seeking jobs, the overall response in January of 2023 was positive 36 in May.

00;34;54;12 - 00;35;08;09
Red
In May of that same year, it slipped to plus 27. Okay. And they didn't they did not have any 2025 numbers. But I even the even the 2023 numbers weren't that great. I have to assume that there was 36.

00;35;08;09 - 00;35;09;09
Del
Is not good.

00;35;09;14 - 00;35;13;13
Red
If you take a look at LinkedIn right now, which I had to do to find this.

00;35;13;13 - 00;35;14;14
Del
I'm so sorry.

00;35;14;15 - 00;35;32;23
Red
Yeah, it is. Everybody is using AI to write their posts to, to to do all these things. It is a bleak and and and hollow place. It is not. There is there is no warmth there. It is very cold to assist with getting people into jobs. There were there were like there were two very clear approaches, but we'll start.

00;35;32;24 - 00;35;59;23
Red
Yeah. There were progressive organizations that would offer real job openings with flexible schedules and counseling in order to get people into work and stay in that work. Other organizations will look the other way and fail to tackle systemic issues like, presenteeism and toxic work environments. And this isn't even mentioning the ghost jobs phenomenon that's still going on today and is made easier by what.

00;36;00;03 - 00;36;03;21
Del
What is presenteeism? And also ghost jobs is the thing. I was about to.

00;36;03;21 - 00;36;17;08
Red
Bring up some present presenteeism is, your attendance, your, like, if you show up, are you showing up to work? Are you, are you staying at work? Are you on time? Are you, you know, stuff like that, like recidivism.

00;36;17;08 - 00;36;19;22
Del
But when it's not describing crime and.

00;36;19;24 - 00;36;35;26
Red
Yeah. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. Like our, like, what's your turnover? What's your like? They'll ignore all of that, which all translates into a toxic world work culture which they will also look away from. Right. All right. Just a reminder, listeners, H.R. Is not your friend in any company.

00;36;35;26 - 00;36;44;00
Del
Oh, H.R. is an absolute fucking op. And if anybody is telling you that that they're not, they're either a fool or an HR person or both.

00;36;44;02 - 00;37;02;20
Red
Right. And, you know, the media will then throw that responsibility back on the individual and, and they'll I can't tell you how many of my search results about these topic came back with articles that were titled, like how to prevent Job Search burnout, or this is how you can manage your job search anxiety and employee.

00;37;02;21 - 00;37;14;21
Del
Journal opinion article Opinion it is absolutely fine to not find a job and to feel good about that, and you should keep doing it. Please keep manufacturing things I need. I want more money.

00;37;14;21 - 00;37;31;09
Red
Yeah. And like, you know, as if the stress of this exploitative job market isn't a fucking it, like they're they're acting like it's a fucking personal hygiene problem. It's just for you. Yeah. Just brush your teeth, bro. Use it. Use the mouthwash with alcohol.

00;37;31;09 - 00;37;36;10
Del
Don't. Don't fucking start this bullshit.

00;37;36;12 - 00;38;06;22
Red
I'm triggered. Well, so. So we have the answer about who funds it, how we keep it in demand, how we keep it built. And they're cutting people and not allowing them to find new jobs easily. So the next question I had was, how did we learn to navigate within the structure? And the other simple answer I have for that question was we went to school, we were taught these things from the moment we could understand them, and then some, but they're there.

00;38;06;22 - 00;38;17;13
Red
Can't possibly deal. There can't possibly be any sort of issue with the American school system. Right?

00;38;17;15 - 00;38;19;15
Red
You're not going to break my heart, are you?

00;38;19;17 - 00;38;21;26
Del
I don't know, man. That depends on.

00;38;21;26 - 00;38;31;00
Speaker 3
How serious this question is, bro. I, I want to manage your expectations. I'm going to say.

00;38;31;00 - 00;38;32;14
Red
McGraw Hill is my.

00;38;32;14 - 00;38;35;27
Del
Answer to that question. Hahahahahahahaha.

00;38;35;29 - 00;38;56;14
Red
You know, answer accepted. To, to be honest with you, I broke my own heart when I wrote this. Teachers are actually burning out at ridiculous rates. Forbes reported in June of 2022 that 44% of K-Through-12 teachers say they always, or very often feel burned out at work. And 35% of college and university professors say the same.

00;38;56;16 - 00;39;19;02
Del
One of my best friends, and, she is a grade school teacher in, our, the state in which I grew up. And, yeah, I definitely can appreciate this thing. It's the. Yeah, it is fucking holy work. It is spiritual work. And I cannot say enough or, like, salute hard enough at the people who do that.

00;39;19;02 - 00;39;24;06
Del
And, yeah, I'm not surprised that they're burnt out. That's like a fucking definition of less resources, more work.

00;39;24;09 - 00;39;47;23
Red
Hard work. Yeah. These are the people who need 50,000 pounds or dollars a week, in my opinion. Truly. But, they cited the causes as excessive workload as the number one lack of support from their administrators, poor working conditions, challenging student behavior, negative relationships with parents, lack of appreciation and isolation from colleagues, and high emotional demands, and the negative relationships.

00;39;47;23 - 00;40;04;15
Red
The negative relationships with parents stood out to me. I didn't find anybody talking about this, when I was researching it, so I wanted to talk, briefly about it with you for multiple reasons, because I think teachers, teachers are now basically expected to take a bullet for their students. And, you know what?

00;40;04;16 - 00;40;08;15
Del
Basically, Uvalde cops made it. So basically is literally sorry.

00;40;08;15 - 00;40;12;14
Red
Yes, they are expected to take a bullet, for their students.

00;40;12;14 - 00;40;17;00
Del
And yes, I'm adding you, Uvalde PD. You can keep waiting outside. Don't worry.

00;40;17;02 - 00;40;28;24
Red
And secondly, some of these parents are just bad. But obviously some of them are also, in all likelihood, after reading the other stats, burnt the fuck out too.

00;40;28;26 - 00;40;29;20
Del
Yes.

00;40;29;22 - 00;40;44;29
Red
So we are taking this is a cycle of burnout that we're taking out on each other. It's causing a degradation in our schools. It's causing a degradation with our relationships with our teachers. And it's making, yes, destroying the students and the economy itself. Like from the jump.

00;40;45;02 - 00;41;05;05
Del
Yeah. And it's like, as in maybe in some respect, it's no wonder that we're having this culture of like alpha value mindset grind set, because that's the message that we're sending to the generation of people that grew up in it. You like people who are kind of like 25 or less, grew up never knowing anything except this sort of way of living.

00;41;05;07 - 00;41;22;11
Del
And in the United States. And yeah, I mean, what message are we sending? Yeah, it's just like, that's what your value is. And just like, you know, yeah, it's just like a burnout milieu at all times. No, I that's true. It's my biggest problem about consumer and value based culture in that way.

00;41;22;13 - 00;41;22;19
Red
Right.

00;41;22;19 - 00;41;27;09
Del
And because it's not true, it's among my biggest problem.

00;41;27;12 - 00;41;49;02
Red
And burnout, you know, it's hard to start empathizing with people, right? Because that's part of what's burnt out. It's it's you have to preserve yourself to maintain your job and your job performance so you don't have time to just be like, well, these parents are probably burnt out to no, fuck that shit. Just teacher, treat your teachers with respect and dignity and you might have a good time.

00;41;49;06 - 00;41;55;25
Del
And it's like, where is the line at which I'm like, I empathize with the fact that you're burnt out, but you can't just keep acting out by pooping on the table.

00;41;55;27 - 00;41;56;27
Speaker 3
Right? You know what I mean? Yeah.

00;41;56;28 - 00;41;57;23
Red
Like yes. Yeah.

00;41;57;25 - 00;42;08;24
Del
It's it's like there's like a degree in which you're like, I have to ask a legitimate question, which is like, I get that you're burnt out and like, we're all victims in this situation. On the other hand, like, you gotta stop pooping on the table.

00;42;08;26 - 00;42;11;00
Red
Right? And nobody wants.

00;42;11;03 - 00;42;13;28
Del
Burnout. It's not a good reason for that.

00;42;14;01 - 00;42;27;19
Red
I want to get into more numbers because that's all I do. These are more recent. So as of 2025, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, 34% of fourth graders lack basic reading levels 34%.

00;42;27;22 - 00;42;28;16
Del
In the US.

00;42;28;19 - 00;42;36;13
Red
In the This Is Us. Sorry, this is specifically the US. These numbers are all U.S based. I did not look at international numbers,

00;42;36;15 - 00;42;38;18
Del
And it would only have broken your heart more.

00;42;38;21 - 00;43;07;10
Red
And here's the thing. I decided to go even further. Because if it's at 34% of fourth graders right now, it's at 21% of adults right now that struggle with it. The low literacy, the low, the low, this this level of low literacy costs the US economy an estimated $2.2 trillion. I believe the loss of productivity, higher health care costs, reduced economic participation.

00;43;07;12 - 00;43;20;22
Red
43 million Americans face daily challenges with text based information. Like drug warnings, instructions, job applications, all of it. And before I let you respond, Dell, because I see that you you have something to say?

00;43;20;24 - 00;43;21;21
Del
Oh, I totally don't.

00;43;21;21 - 00;43;55;08
Red
I am just I'm in awe. Okay, I well, I have a final tidbit here. U.S born adults, make up 67% of the low literacy population. Foreign born, 33%. White adults make up 35% of the low literacy group. Black adults 20%. Asian adults 8%. Hispanic adults 34%. These are numbers that are directly tied to historical inequality in this country, and are also unsustainable because of how we have started treating our teachers.

00;43;55;11 - 00;44;01;29
Del
White people think they can read much better than they can and are actually terrible at it. Who is surprised whom?

00;44;02;02 - 00;44;14;28
Red
I honest, I was so not you know, I was surprised by how high the numbers were. Yeah. But I was not surprised by who was at who. Who was number one, baby number one.

00;44;14;28 - 00;44;19;28
Del
Maybe that's fucking. Yeah. That's fucked.

00;44;20;00 - 00;44;27;19
Red
The only thing that whites are supreme at is illiteracy, apparently. Sorry, but it was that. Was that too spicy?

00;44;27;19 - 00;44;30;21
Del
And creating the conditions to foster more of it.

00;44;30;28 - 00;44;49;03
Red
Yeah. Correct. But yeah, the biggest point I wanted to make in this section, though, was how can anyone thrive in a system that they aren't educated about, and how can we educate them when we put our education in a pressure cooker? You know, you start with change at the source, right? The structure, we all choose to exist with it.

00;44;49;06 - 00;45;11;03
Del
Yes. Well, I agree with you. And I think that that structure is the problem. And I think that that structure is. Yeah, rooted deep in the source of everything that is problematic about most things, at least that about our data, about that are problematic in our daily lives and in the larger meta. And for the just everybody who lives on the planet.

00;45;11;05 - 00;45;31;27
Del
But I don't know what is the solution beyond that. Like, obviously like we need to, you know, capitalism is rot and overrate. Overrated is the gentle way I can put it. But, the thing I think that really stands out to me about the literacy thing, it's relevant to a lot of this stuff that we've talked about.

00;45;31;27 - 00;46;02;12
Del
We recorded another episode today, to do with Grifting and, media literacy and critical reading ability and eventually I think this will dovetail with your future, large language learning model I episode that you're talking about, I guess, like, I don't know how what ameliorates this in the big picture, but I do know that not making it worse by perpetuating a culture of burnout and putting increasingly increasing weight on a creak on the creaking backs of people like who are doing inherently what what in a system like this constitutes an altruistic job?

00;46;02;12 - 00;46;21;04
Del
I have issues with the idea of altruism, and I'm not saying, like, not capital altruism. Okay? Like philosophy, people relax. This is not a, statement about altruism. This is a statement about like, it is a relatively selfless job within the system to do teaching or something like that, and you're putting more and more strain on people to do something which is essential.

00;46;21;06 - 00;46;42;25
Del
Yeah, yeah. Unappreciated, being unappreciated and having this kind of, strain and difficult working conditions ultimately for a jobs like this is that's pretty easily, rectified. Well, I mean, you could repurpose so much money that's being used to bomb orphans in Palestine to improve the situation. If you wanted to do that, if you felt that it was really a problem.

00;46;42;25 - 00;46;48;23
Del
But I anyway, like, I know that you feel that way and I know that I feel that way, but, you know.

00;46;48;25 - 00;46;49;09
Red
Yeah, I mean.

00;46;49;15 - 00;46;50;10
Speaker 3
Am I am I making.

00;46;50;10 - 00;46;54;00
Del
My point clearly without being here, without shoving it down your throat?

00;46;54;03 - 00;47;26;13
Red
Yeah. You said that you didn't know what the solution is, but the big picture of it is you do, you do. And in this, in this specific case with classrooms and teachers, it's you fund the classrooms, you reduce the class sizes. You stop treating teachers like free therapists, and you fucking keep guns out of schools. I really liked how you, constructed that because, you know, we do spend a lot of our money in this country on bombing other countries and, you know.

00;47;26;13 - 00;47;28;04
Del
Sporting illiteracy ultimately.

00;47;28;08 - 00;47;48;22
Red
And also exporting illiteracy. Right. We're not funding people so that they are, they're doing well. You know, we're not helping the people who keep the structure going, who teach, who teach us how to navigate. So the next question I asked myself was, who do you go to when your burnout has reached its limit? You know, you've read doctor, right?

00;47;48;23 - 00;47;54;11
Red
Right. So you've read all the, see me. Yep. You do. Allegedly.

00;47;54;14 - 00;47;55;03
Del
Allegedly.

00;47;55;06 - 00;47;56;07
Red
You've read nobody's ever.

00;47;56;07 - 00;47;57;23
Del
Actually seen me.

00;47;57;25 - 00;48;19;05
Red
Right? Not alleged. Not alleged. Yeah. That's fair. Because, you know, after you've read all of the articles about how to manage your anxiety with your job search, you've tried to change jobs, you've tried to get a raise, you've tried everything. You go to your doctor, sometimes a therapist, or really anyone who could take you off work for a while.

00;48;19;08 - 00;48;27;12
Del
Anybody who can try to help and can give you a documented reason to say, hey, I need to do this and be away from work. Please don't fire or kill me.

00;48;27;15 - 00;48;39;28
Red
Adele, you touched on this a little a little bit ago, but my friendly with an MD, there can't possibly be something wrong with our health care in the United States, right? Right. It's perfect the way it is.

00;48;40;01 - 00;48;52;18
Del
Obviously, it is. I you know what? It's not like there are 37 models that are better than it. Measurably on the.

00;48;52;18 - 00;49;01;23
Red
List. No. Couldn't be couldn't. Because, you know, it's America is the best American exceptionalism.

00;49;01;25 - 00;49;11;04
Del
It's really good. It's actually really cool because, like, we don't have long wait times. And also everybody gets the thing that they need.

00;49;11;07 - 00;49;13;21
Speaker 3
Super cool.

00;49;13;23 - 00;49;25;25
Red
So I, we already know and I already know that I'm preaching to the choir on this, in this section of, of my writing, but it's basically the failure of the support system for the support of the system.

00;49;25;25 - 00;49;34;23
Del
Yeah, I yes, I have words about this, but I want you to finish a thing because once I start rolling down the hill, I feel like I'm going to start. It's going to be a big snowball.

00;49;34;23 - 00;49;48;06
Red
And actually this I hope, will build that snowball even bigger. So there's a 2024 paper that I read, titled Physician Burnout Evidence based Romance, Super Prioritizing and Supporting Personal Well-Being. But I read that paper. Did you?

00;49;48;08 - 00;49;52;18
Del
Yeah, I there's a there's one that comes out every year and it comes. Yeah. Anyway, continue.

00;49;52;20 - 00;50;23;19
Red
This one was by, three, three authors. And I'm sorry if I get these name wrong. Louise, under Dahl, Mary de and, Luna. Tita. Deathly. It reports about a 63% of us physicians report burnout at least once a week. Oh. Yeah. And the consequences of which were emotional exhaustion, depersonalization, adverse clinical outcomes, and reduced institutional financial performance, which is what you discussed a little bit ago.

00;50;23;22 - 00;50;49;17
Red
And Covid 19 really slammed that into overdrive because hospitals realize the same thing a lot of other companies did, which was we can do more with way less less staff, less pay, less resources. But read I hear you say, dear listener, I do, I hear you. 62% of hospitals in the U.S. are nonprofit. And I would say to you, dear listener, you've clearly done your reading on the American Hospital Association's website, just as I did.

00;50;49;18 - 00;51;02;04
Del
Dear listener, if you're saying that, I want you to know that if it's on site, if you're making that, if you're making that dumb ass fucking argument, ironically, if I ever meet you, it's on fucking site you're on, moron.

00;51;02;06 - 00;51;03;07
Speaker 3


00;51;03;10 - 00;51;12;02
Red
The only reason I can make that joke is because I know there's nobody listening. That's, you know, going to say that, but, so then if you read that same one hour discord.

00;51;12;02 - 00;51;15;25
Del
Mod, listening to this, a bigger slice on their algorithm is, like, so.

00;51;15;25 - 00;51;37;24
Red
Upset right now. I'm so mad. Anyway, sorry, I continue. Well, then they, you know, if they read that same, article on the website that I did, you must know that 20, 2551 hospitals and health care systems announced layoffs affecting tens of thousands of employees, citing a decline in Medicare and Medicaid reimbursement rates, inflation impact and post pandemic that the.

00;51;37;26 - 00;51;44;24
Del
CEOs of which are the ones who lobbied really hard for that big, beautiful bill to change that reimbursement rate.

00;51;44;27 - 00;51;47;15
Red
You are reading my fucking mind and.

00;51;47;16 - 00;51;49;00
Del
I'm living with you. Nightmare.

00;51;49;06 - 00;52;07;29
Red
Yeah. Sorry. Yes, you're reading my fucking nightmare. And in order to fix those issues, what did we do? We allowed our government to place Doctor Mehmet Oz and Robert F Kennedy junior in charge across the fucking board. And. Well, I really hope now you have a beautiful rant. Please. I, I do.

00;52;07;29 - 00;52;25;13
Del
I do I don't know if it's beautiful, but it's a fucking rant. Let me tell you, brother. To add to that, I, I work in a major, a major metropolitan area of one of the largest cities in the United States. That is where I did most of my training and most of my practice. Allegedly.

00;52;25;15 - 00;52;44;20
Del
And I have now I my employer, by the structure, the place that I work is it's private equity. There's a lot of money in. It's an already pretty, affluent area compared to where I was before. The problems are the same. They have laid off people and are underpaying compared to the market for everything from nursing patient care technicians to physicians in every capacity.

00;52;44;24 - 00;53;03;05
Del
This is just the hospital that I know about 90. But this is a trend that you can see across the system, across the nation. They're not paying. They're not keeping up with market rate for anything like that. They're lowering the amount of people that they're hiring, increasing the amount of work that goes to people. These jobs are basically what you're describing with grade school teachers completely undesirable, in many, many, many ways.

00;53;03;07 - 00;53;20;24
Del
So the people that you're getting, doing them are either people who are just, like, very burnt out, but they're with good intent or people that are not necessarily as much they're in good faith, but it's a worse environment. It dissuades people from entering it, because it's already difficult to get into, and then it's toxic. On top of that, it's like, what is the point of doing something like that?

00;53;20;27 - 00;53;25;19
Del
Not to mention the absolute, the system is working against you in many ways. I work.

00;53;25;19 - 00;53;25;29
Red
Up.

00;53;26;00 - 00;53;45;17
Del
I opt to work only at night so that I can interact less with the structure of like the administrators and basically people who cheated off me in math classes when we were in university together and then failed upwards into these fucking jobs. To tell who are not physicians, are any by any means are ones who are telling me how I'm supposed to do my job in a very real way.

00;53;45;17 - 00;54;22;01
Del
And oftentimes it's like the system is more and more evolved, too, as a result of lobbying, value, you know, pitch somebody to get that surgery, put money into getting somebody to generate, to do a procedure because we can bill more money for that. And all of that adds up. And now, like the people who have lobbied for this for a really long time, have successfully gotten the biggest con artists, RFK yeah, and Oz in there who like, basically got their bag, preaching the need for this and doing couching it a nice official words, and basically dissolving, basically taking a blender to all of our parents brain who are watching it

00;54;22;01 - 00;54;37;04
Del
on daytime TV or, you know, some of our own. In many, many ways, we are all fucking suffering because of it. I know so many good people that are leaving and quitting their jobs that are such fucking good physicians. We would all be so lucky if we could be under their care who are leaving, because nobody can put up with this.

00;54;37;04 - 00;54;56;19
Del
It's called moral injury. It's why I work at night. Because I can't like, I, I can't manage the idea that I am I just I have too strong of a like it bugs me like I can't. There's an amount I can do with playing the game, but, it exceeds the amount that people can manage and still be like, jeez, can I go home and sleep at night?

00;54;56;19 - 00;55;12;07
Del
Like, you know, at some level it's like I'm doing something gross and I can't look past that anymore. You know what? It does make everybody's job worse. The common wisdom is that, like, if somebody you're talking about one of our colleagues, one of my colleagues is like, oh, they made a bad decision or something bad happened. The first thing is like, well, I'm sure they're really burnt out.

00;55;12;07 - 00;55;25;29
Del
And everybody's like, and if you say that like, yeah, in the ass, I'm like, what's been going on that? Like, I've just really burnt out everybody. It's a mark. It's a mark of how endemic and known this thing is. People are like right now. It's totally understandable. It completely fucks you up. Like being on a narcotic like it is.

00;55;25;29 - 00;55;44;26
Del
It warps your judgment. You get empathy, burnout. It messes with your sleep. It messes with the way that you think. It messes with the way that you reason. And yes, like I know many people, almost every 100% of people that I know that I've trained with or work with now have at least passively reported at some point that, yeah, I'm so burnt out that I wish I did a different job or just fucking off myself.

00;55;44;28 - 00;55;46;20
Del
Please seek help if you're feeling this.

00;55;46;24 - 00;55;49;12
Red
Yeah. And or in some cases they do off themselves.

00;55;49;14 - 00;56;15;11
Del
Oh yeah, I know some people or knew some people that did. It is absolutely the idea of commodifying and selling something and commodifying and selling wellness is a fucking American industry in a really big way, has been for a really long time. And this is just the ugliest face of it. And more burnt out people hollowing out the support beams of the structure, as you mentioned in your analogy, is going to have a very real cost and human lives, and we are headed toward that singularity at all times.

00;56;15;11 - 00;56;31;11
Del
And that's what keeps me awake at night. Just getting other things keep me awake at night. But, yeah. Burnout. Burnout is a really big fucking piece of this. People with really good intent that are in there trying to do it are fewer and fewer and further between and being injured by this sort of thing in a very real way.

00;56;31;11 - 00;56;43;22
Del
And all of us are suffering for it. It is bleak and real. And the and I agree with what, your, analysis of what the source of that burnout is and what the remedy is.

00;56;43;24 - 00;57;03;25
Red
Yeah. The preciate you bring it up. Oh, it's it's it's super important because this is, you know, these are the systems that we go through to help keep the structure supported and to help keep our way of life going. And the one thing that shouldn't be capitalistic is health care. In my opinion, nobody should want that for their health care.

00;57;03;28 - 00;57;27;11
Red
Even if you don't believe in socialism or whatever, you should not want this system at the very least. But, you know, to to get back a little bit on topic, the burnout drivers for clinicians were, were really obvious, right? Long working hours, high patient volumes, additional admin tasks, limited control over their schedules and even like stuff like electronic health records, which were meant to improve efficiency and safety.

00;57;27;14 - 00;57;34;15
Red
They often increase documentation burdens and reduce patient interaction time, like, there's so many sources of that.

00;57;34;18 - 00;57;54;14
Del
It's two things the the record, the health record thing. One of those features very predominantly that makes everything worse is the fucking, yeah, the health record. It's like clicking through buttons and also like who like standardizing a health care, electronic record would be so much more helpful for everybody. But they don't because that too is big business.

00;57;54;20 - 00;57;55;12
Red
Yeah, huge.

00;57;55;12 - 00;58;16;02
Del
So they have like a time they have like a Warner Brothers Paramount Universal sort of like, you know, AT&T level of like territory like cartel territory blocked out. And it's like dog eat dog world. It's not for the benefit of anybody except for these bottom line people, number one. And number two, fewer resources and people like administrative like administrators getting in the way of that same thing.

00;58;16;03 - 00;58;30;25
Del
This is all the same thing. It's like it's a it's just that they're not staffing this sort of thing, and they're asking people to do more and more with a narrow and narrower, narrower and narrower scope where the goal is not about like it's to sell more, it's to keep the business of the hospital or the healthcare institution solvent.

00;58;30;25 - 00;58;50;24
Del
It's not about people's wellness, in my case, like the place that I work. The big thing is people's satisfaction scores, their Yelp reviews, basically. And that is not that's how you get measured for performance, which ultimately means that that's how you get reimbursement from the government or from Medicare or whatever else they pick. The performance metric, and that's what you.

00;58;50;26 - 00;59;13;08
Del
So at what point did I stop doing my job for the sake of doing my job of, you know, trying to make the world a slightly like make my immediate world like, do not not to do harm, to make it like at least at the end of the day, break even. When did I stop doing that and when did it become that I'm trying to keep the fucking business solvent or whatever.

00;59;13;08 - 00;59;18;19
Del
And because that's not what I consented to. And I know that lots of people feel that way.

00;59;18;22 - 00;59;38;07
Red
Yeah, well, because, you know, we just talked about education to everybody has to go through education. Everybody has to go through health care at some at some in some way. And so much like how it is with education, burnout is very real, for, for the medical world. And it has an impact on every single person and suicides listener.

00;59;38;10 - 00;59;57;13
Red
Right. And to be blunt, if you think the health system collapse is a specialty problem, you should also remember that primary care gaps mean undiagnosed conditions. And mental health burnout means longer wait times and emergency emergency department strain means worse outcomes for everyone.

00;59;57;15 - 01;00;10;08
Del
If you think this, this doesn't affect your listener and you think it's a specialty problem, I want you to think about your back pain. I know you've got it. What if it got worse and you couldn't move and you couldn't go to work and do your thing? Where would you go? And if the answer is E.R. and you're like, what?

01;00;10;08 - 01;00;20;27
Del
I'm not going to do that unless it gets really bad because the wait time is really longer than I would have to do X, Y, or Z. Or like, when was the last time you saw your primary doctor? And the answer is I don't have one under the wait is too long, then yes, this is already affecting you.

01;00;20;29 - 01;00;30;17
Red
It's already hit you like just because you aren't set up. Even without insurance, it doesn't matter. Like you do eventually have to see somebody or talk to somebody.

01;00;30;17 - 01;00;33;18
Del
And yeah, you think it's not your problem. Just wait buddy, it will be.

01;00;33;26 - 01;00;56;21
Red
Michaela Auld said it well, in an article for brains with a Z magazine quote, burnout happens when people's values and energy are consistently at odds with the demands placed on them. It's a symptom of a system. It's a symptom of a system that prioritizes short term productivity over long term sustainability. And, quote, and this that is the foundation of the structure that we're currently working within.

01;00;56;21 - 01;01;03;26
Red
And if you accept the structure as is, you accept the consequences of continuing to build on that rickety ass.

01;01;03;26 - 01;01;05;28
Del
Found a rickety ass foundation.

01;01;06;04 - 01;01;35;23
Red
Yeah. And, you know, I, I can acknowledge that there's a problem and that there's a, a plethora of solutions. I could spend another hour listing here, but unfortunately, until the US of a wants to change or wants better for themselves or their communities, this is the structure that we will continue to exist within. There are much smarter people than I who have come up with many, many scalable solutions to these issues, and I highly recommend you educate yourself about them.

01;01;35;23 - 01;01;36;05
Red
Listener.

01;01;36;05 - 01;01;51;23
Del
Let me quote one of them, I guess. And I think it's a doctor. It's this should be, I think, the doctrine that underlies that underpins these things to each according to their need, from each according to their means. That's what I've got to say about that.

01;01;51;25 - 01;01;58;14
Red
Well, though, there is one solution I can tell you that doesn't work. Fucking time shares. Yeah, okay.

01;01;58;16 - 01;02;03;04
Speaker 3
I forgot about that. Yeah. All right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, right on.

01;02;03;06 - 01;02;06;03
Del
Controversial. Controversial. Take that time. Share. It's not healthy. The bubble.

01;02;06;04 - 01;02;07;01
Speaker 3
Gone.

01;02;07;03 - 01;02;20;10
Red
But that's. That's all I have. For for you today. And I would I would love to hear, final thoughts on the, the whole, on the whole basically, now that I've given you the information that I had going in.

01;02;20;12 - 01;02;46;05
Del
You know, I have this is near and dear to me. I really appreciate the way that you have framed it and that you the analogy of the building and its supports, I appreciate your insights about it from the and providing numbers. I trust that kind of thing. Ambiguity outside of that is annoying because it's imprecise. And it's part of the problem is the narrative I think surrounding, like the way we talk about these things is what perpetuates it in many ways.

01;02;46;05 - 01;02;50;09
Del
So I, I really appreciate the way that you work around work around that. So thanks for that.

01;02;50;11 - 01;02;52;13
Speaker 3
No problem, I guess.

01;02;52;13 - 01;03;11;06
Del
Yeah. As a, you know, just wearing it on my sleeve for a sick burnout is a thing, that affects a lot of people I know I struggle with this personally. My relationship to the field. I'm very passionate about the work that I do, and I love it. And I got into it because I love that idea.

01;03;11;06 - 01;03;14;24
Del
I like that there's a certain spiritual element to I don't know.

01;03;14;25 - 01;03;31;16
Red
Yeah, it's it's it's a calling for sure. You know, I, I see it, you know, when I see the game. Yeah, yeah. You, you just want to help. And the structure that you work within doesn't allow you to help at the capacity in which you want to. And that's that also would cause burnout, I would imagine, you know.

01;03;31;19 - 01;04;04;23
Del
It's hard because, well, I view my job a lot more like it's kind of like higher education in its best form, like somebody is teaching you something and you're kind of working with them like it's like in the shared pursuit of something more about greater understanding and then trying to take a piece of that and try to make something measurably, slightly better as, the result of two people or whatever, like a team of people trying to agree to do, you know, it is the ultimate, in my opinion, representation of what makes life and people like the things in the world and the universe that are beautiful.

01;04;04;23 - 01;04;30;17
Del
It's like we could all be doing something for secondary gain and like, we kind of are to have a better system and more people doing well. But in the immediate, it's at least not short termist. And it's better than this. Like nihilistic, everybody gets maximum value and either or die trying sort of thing that we're doing now, I find it very challenging, because of the way that health is like, basically it's like a thing, a product that you people sell and consume.

01;04;30;17 - 01;04;40;03
Del
And it's a big business, right? It's a thing that is, yeah, I sensitively approached and I appreciate the structure for sure, near and dear to my heart. So, felt.

01;04;40;08 - 01;05;08;02
Red
Yeah. I'm, I'm I'm glad. I think that really at the end of the day, in a very abstract way, I empathy is the way out of this. Yes. And it's instead of competing with one another to feel like we are greater than somebody else or better than somebody else, in whatever way. If you can let that part of your ego and pride go, you couldn't make life on earth so much better for so many people.

01;05;08;02 - 01;05;21;25
Red
And, you know, to the people who aren't burnt out, you're either one of the lucky ones, right? And you know, to the people who say they aren't burnt out, you're either one of the lucky ones or you're a fucking liar.

01;05;21;28 - 01;05;30;29
Del
Or you need to. Yeah. Or, you know, I would encourage you to like, introspect about that and make sure that the answer to that question is still that you're not burnt out, I guess.

01;05;31;01 - 01;05;47;07
Red
But thank you all for listening to this one. This one I, I poured my heart and soul into and I, I hope that it if it changed your mind. I would love to hear about that in the comments below. Otherwise, please don't forget to share the podcast around with people who you might feel benefit from it, and take care of yourselves out there.

01;05;47;07 - 01;05;50;11
Red
And most importantly, thank you for being distracted with us.

01;05;50;15 - 01;05;52;26
Del
Thanks for taking the dive tonight.