Distraction Dive
Semi-scripted, occasionally well researched deep dives by two STEM background straight dudes who are too into their feelings. Expect random tangents, mild existential crises, and way too much time spent dissecting their feelings, sometimes followed up with an MLA styled bibliography about it.
Distraction Dive
Remote Viewing
Red & Del cut through the fog around remote viewing, the Stargate Project and the surprising number of credible names that once vouched for psychic research. We trace the history (mostly through Ghostbusters), explain what remote viewing claims to be, and look at why believing in these pseudoscience-backed practices can be harmful both individually and societally.
If you’re curious about the intersection of government policy, scientific credibility, and cultural myth-making, or are just a fan of Ghostbusters, this episode breaks it down with humor and research, helping you spot how pseudoscience spreads.
Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project_(U.S._Army_unit)
https://irp.fas.org/program/collect/air1995.pdf
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00788R001700210016-5.pdf
00:00:02:44 - 00:00:06:20
Del
You? Well, my friend.
00:00:06:25 - 00:00:09:15
Del
Seems like, the mics are hot and
00:00:09:19 - 00:00:11:08
Del
The dread is existential.
00:00:11:13 - 00:00:14:37
Del
The fascists are through the gates
00:00:14:42 - 00:00:18:29
Del
And we are back, my friend. This is a distraction dive.
00:00:18:34 - 00:00:20:15
Del
You know, I did that thing where I said something.
00:00:20:15 - 00:00:22:00
Del
Real for the patter
00:00:22:04 - 00:00:22:22
Del
And.
00:00:22:33 - 00:00:27:25
Red
Hahahahahahahaha. Now you have to dig your yourself out.
00:00:27:30 - 00:00:32:04
Del
Yeah. And, like, And the worst part, I think, is that I'm.
00:00:32:04 - 00:00:32:52
Del
Like, oh, like the.
00:00:32:52 - 00:00:35:37
Del
Fear I feel about this is also really. Oh. Ha ha ha.
00:00:35:37 - 00:00:39:29
Red
Ha ha ha ha. I'm. I'm scared.
00:00:39:34 - 00:00:42:04
Red
Yeah. This is. Yeah. This is not a bit.
00:00:42:09 - 00:00:45:31
Del
I'm just scared.
00:00:45:36 - 00:00:47:40
Red
Well, anyway, I am called.
00:00:47:40 - 00:00:51:03
Del
Del, and this podcast is Distraction Dive. And it.
00:00:51:03 - 00:00:53:57
Del
Is where we often me.
00:00:54:01 - 00:01:02:24
Del
Get obsessed with something and write a lot of things about it, and often unintentionally ruin the day of my best friend.
00:01:02:29 - 00:01:05:37
Del
And this is not.
00:01:05:42 - 00:01:09:39
Del
Hopefully going to be one of those. But, before I keep yapping.
00:01:09:52 - 00:01:26:03
Red
My name is Red. Currently, my emotions are that stupid fucking dance that Donald Trump does. You know, the one, you listeners, you do not need a video of it. You're seeing it in your head, right? The fuck now. You know what I'm talking about. That's how I feel. That's. That's how I feel in this moment.
00:01:26:07 - 00:01:28:37
Red
So you know that.
00:01:28:42 - 00:01:54:38
Del
This is like, like a random thing, but I watch, we've all seen we're like dimension 20 girls. And, I'm, I'm in the second chapter of Unsleeping city, and they just made reference back to, precious little dance like the arm, like the rad baby dance. And that's literally what Trumps dances. And I don't know if this is like, is a new Yorkers like rats from New York could do this like.
00:01:54:43 - 00:01:56:15
Del
But anyway.
00:01:56:20 - 00:02:04:01
The issue is though, he'll do that dance to any song, including the YMCA which has a dedicated dance to it.
00:02:04:06 - 00:02:06:36
Del
Yep, yep.
00:02:06:41 - 00:02:07:44
Red
And yeah.
00:02:07:48 - 00:02:10:13
Del
I don't know man. I like I.
00:02:10:13 - 00:02:11:18
Red
Said, they're through the gates.
00:02:11:18 - 00:02:11:45
Del
And like.
00:02:11:45 - 00:02:13:15
Del
The the fascism is.
00:02:13:15 - 00:02:17:40
Del
Both more real and way more fucking stupid than.
00:02:17:45 - 00:02:20:09
Del
You know, it's like it's the fact that it's so.
00:02:20:09 - 00:02:39:22
Del
Dumb. It's like the banality of evil, as I call this all the goddamn time on this on the show, I swear. But like the banality of evil, peace is so, like, all consuming that it's like it's so dumb. It's hard to be like, damn right, you know, grab your pitchforks. But whatever. That's not that's not this episode. We're going to address that.
00:02:39:27 - 00:02:42:14
Del
But, today we and.
00:02:42:14 - 00:02:49:10
Del
This is like, honestly so pressing in, I'm right back in the frame of mind I was in when I wrote this read. We also have this shit going on.
00:02:49:15 - 00:02:50:20
Red
I think we deserve, which is.
00:02:50:23 - 00:02:52:55
Del
This is that mindset, right? We deserve a little treat, some lighter.
00:02:52:55 - 00:03:03:07
Red
Oh, it's a little bit lighter. It's a little bit. It's just like, this is like a bit of a fun ride. This is a pseudoscience Sunday, but it's, it's a little. It's a little different. Okay.
00:03:03:16 - 00:03:09:20
I'm. I'm excited actually. Then I, I yeah, we do need a little treat. Truly.
00:03:09:25 - 00:03:14:38
Red
So, Okay. Excellent. So that is, that is your consent. That is an enthusiastic consent.
00:03:14:47 - 00:03:16:43
That is enthusiastic consent.
00:03:16:48 - 00:03:19:24
Del
Okay, everybody pay attention. Consent is really fucking important.
00:03:19:39 - 00:03:23:07
Red
Okay. So, basically, and.
00:03:23:07 - 00:03:34:10
Del
I'm cheating a little bit here, I, I told you a bit about this. A little tiny bit about this off mike beforehand. This, our topic today is remote viewing. So I know that you have heard of it, but.
00:03:34:15 - 00:03:34:51
Red
What do you.
00:03:34:51 - 00:03:36:51
Del
Know about it? Just up top.
00:03:36:55 - 00:03:44:54
Remote viewing in my in my world. And I said this to you when you said you were writing about remote viewing. Remote viewing?
00:03:44:54 - 00:03:46:16
Del
Please download any us.
00:03:46:17 - 00:03:57:18
Yeah, please download any desk and send me, send me money. But it's I you said no, it is not anything to do with that. Is it like, is it a spiritual thing?
00:03:57:23 - 00:03:58:44
Red
Kind of. Is it like an.
00:03:58:44 - 00:04:00:59
Out of body thing or like.
00:04:00:59 - 00:04:14:51
Red
A sort of yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Yes. So I would say in many ways like t like bird's eye view, I actually I'm going to tell you a little bit about it like just in general, but I would say like to me.
00:04:14:51 - 00:04:17:43
Del
It rings the bells of like these people like it, it.
00:04:17:44 - 00:04:18:30
Red
Scratches that.
00:04:18:30 - 00:04:24:16
Del
It raises red flags in the same region of these people that are like biohackers and like REM only sleep or.
00:04:24:21 - 00:04:25:23
Red
Just like.
00:04:25:28 - 00:04:26:36
Del
That type of like.
00:04:26:36 - 00:04:27:27
Red
Silicon.
00:04:27:27 - 00:04:30:20
Del
Valley incel who does this now, but.
00:04:30:25 - 00:04:31:33
Del
Remote viewing is a bit of.
00:04:31:33 - 00:04:35:40
Del
An artifact. It's, diamonds aren't forever. Maybe remote viewing.
00:04:35:40 - 00:04:38:42
Del
Is, but, we'll we'll see. Let's see if you agree.
00:04:38:42 - 00:04:39:30
Del
About that at the.
Del
End. But yeah, completely fair.
00:04:41:33 - 00:04:52:14
Del
That your take about remote viewing was that that it's like, oh, I'm, it's a, it's a software that you're going to use and then try to get me to send you gift cards, which as some type of minority, that is amazing.
00:04:52:19 - 00:05:00:13
But I just had to deal with that in my previous job. Oh, I have people falling for it. So like the term.
00:05:00:18 - 00:05:01:37
Del
Viewings for a living.
00:05:01:42 - 00:05:03:02
Red
That's wild.
00:05:04:01 - 00:05:05:06
Red
That's so wild.
00:05:05:06 - 00:05:10:10
Del
The term robot if you. Yeah I told you about this off mike a little bit but yeah. This is the thing a bit for later. But yeah. Gone.
00:05:10:19 - 00:05:36:31
Red
No that's really it. It's a very frustrating thing to when you have somebody that is promoting that you can trust them. They're advertising like hey I can help you. You just have to send me gift cards. And that doesn't raise red flags. Somehow I still don't quite I haven't quite connected those dots as to how like, sure, the remote viewing thing is a problem as far as like cybersecurity goes.
00:05:36:36 - 00:05:54:33
Red
Maybe the even this remote viewing is a problem, but I there's the solution is just. Yeah, the solution is just getting society educated on hey, people don't usually take payments in gift cards if it's a legitimate like thing, you know, like that's not usually a thing that you're going to do with a business.
00:05:54:37 - 00:05:58:40
Red
Except for me, I will take payments in gift cards if you send them to me.
00:05:58:53 - 00:06:04:50
Red
Actually, same. But like if it doesn't sound like me. Guys, please. It's not going to be me.
00:06:04:55 - 00:06:09:01
Red
Oh, so I'm going to do this as like so this remote viewing. So I will take payment.
00:06:09:01 - 00:06:11:06
Del
And gift cards, but only for this kind of remote viewing.
00:06:11:18 - 00:06:15:34
Del
So yeah. But yeah, let's so let me tell you I guess like.
00:06:15:34 - 00:06:18:43
Del
Let me tell you about it. Like, okay, so here's the deal.
00:06:18:57 - 00:06:21:26
Del
I came across this, I.
00:06:21:27 - 00:06:24:43
Del
Actually did know of it, but just not from the context that I expected.
00:06:24:54 - 00:06:25:51
Del
I came across this when I was.
00:06:25:51 - 00:06:29:25
Del
Researching a different episode that I've been working on, a different pseudoscience under.
00:06:29:38 - 00:06:31:35
Del
The name that we that.
00:06:31:35 - 00:06:35:40
Del
I knew it under was actually, well, I knew it from a movie.
00:06:35:40 - 00:06:37:03
Red
The movie is.
00:06:37:03 - 00:06:41:33
Del
The Men Who Stare at Goats, based on the book. The men who stare at ghosts.
00:06:41:44 - 00:06:46:12
Red
Dude, I don't know if I'm, I know I have. I seen this, you might.
00:06:46:17 - 00:06:48:43
Red
As I came. It's like a.
00:06:48:43 - 00:06:49:46
Del
Mid-Aughts type.
00:06:49:46 - 00:06:53:09
Red
Movie. It's terrible, but, it's terrible.
00:06:53:09 - 00:06:57:22
Del
And, and it features George Clooney, which is interesting. And I one McGregor, if I'm not mistaken.
00:06:57:27 - 00:07:01:24
Red
But, it is dumb and bad, but that's because the.
00:07:01:24 - 00:07:05:04
Del
Idea behind it is dumb and bad and also real.
00:07:05:09 - 00:07:07:37
Red
So there's this. I took it so.
00:07:07:42 - 00:07:09:43
Del
What is remote viewing?
00:07:09:48 - 00:07:14:48
Red
Basically remote viewing. Not to be confused with using,
00:07:14:52 - 00:07:16:59
Del
Desktop software or a telescope.
00:07:17:04 - 00:07:20:31
Red
It's the idea of using. Sorry, I'm just gonna.
00:07:20:31 - 00:07:23:40
Del
I guess, say what the actual definition is, even though it's stupid.
00:07:23:45 - 00:07:25:03
Red
The idea of seeking.
00:07:25:03 - 00:07:26:54
Del
Impressions of something or about.
00:07:26:54 - 00:07:28:55
Red
Something that the seeker cannot.
00:07:28:55 - 00:07:31:52
Del
See or is distant from the seeker.
00:07:31:57 - 00:07:38:13
Red
If you want to think about what that looks like, it's almost like telepathy. It's like a mix between like, like claiming to be.
00:07:38:13 - 00:07:41:24
Del
Telepathic and like, trying to do.
00:07:41:29 - 00:07:51:37
Red
Like, divination. The best example? Have you seen Ghostbusters? Oh, yeah. Okay, so there's a scene at the beginning of Ghostbusters. This is, for those.
00:07:51:37 - 00:07:55:18
Del
Of you who are listening to this that are not 900,000 years old.
00:07:55:22 - 00:07:57:27
Red
Like us.
00:07:57:32 - 00:07:59:08
Del
Like me specifically.
00:07:59:13 - 00:07:59:29
Red
There.
00:07:59:29 - 00:08:07:09
Del
Is this film called Ghostbusters, and it features a guy who used to be famous for being funny back when we were not 900,000 years old, called Bill Murray.
00:08:07:13 - 00:08:09:43
Red
And in it there's.
00:08:09:43 - 00:08:11:07
Del
The opening scene of that movie.
00:08:11:07 - 00:08:12:58
Red
The,
00:08:13:03 - 00:08:17:51
Del
So Bill Murray is like in that that psych, the psychology.
00:08:17:51 - 00:08:18:50
Red
Lab, and he's.
00:08:18:50 - 00:08:25:08
Del
Like having that research assistant read like and try to, like, basically get an impression. And guess what card he's holding up.
00:08:25:22 - 00:08:28:15
Oh yes. Yeah, yeah yeah I've heard of this experiment. Yeah yeah yeah.
00:08:28:24 - 00:08:29:15
Del
That's remote viewing.
00:08:29:25 - 00:08:52:39
Oh yeah. There's actually an entire game based around it. It's called Beyond Two Souls. Yes. I played it on stream like a year or so ago, and, Oh, it is actually like, what if it was real? What if it was like, what if they had this? They actually gave more of a, I would say, scientific reason for why it exists, even though it is, you know, all pseudoscience and it's a video game.
00:08:52:39 - 00:09:02:13
It's a lot to do what it is. But like but also the Bill Murray slander was why is because it strays on distraction. I'm a big fan.
00:09:02:18 - 00:09:05:32
Red
Oh, I'm a huge Bill Murray. Oh, okay. I it's just it's just.
00:09:05:32 - 00:09:06:38
Del
That we're old.
00:09:06:43 - 00:09:18:56
Yeah. That's fair. Yeah, yeah I see. Oh, you mean like. Oh, he was famous for being funny because he is funny, but now he's not as famous for being funny because we are old as we're old. I yeah, yeah, I understand now. Okay, I follow you.
00:09:19:01 - 00:09:20:02
Red
I mean, I'm old.
00:09:20:02 - 00:09:26:37
Del
Anyway, you know what I mean? Like, I, I am like, even for my species, I'm kind of old, but like.
00:09:26:42 - 00:09:35:58
Red
The fact that the fact of the matter is, like, what we, what we like is now old, like. Okay. Yeah. Listeners. Sound off. Let it get back to us. But,
00:09:36:03 - 00:09:45:22
Del
You know, via the usual channels. How many of you knew who Bill Murray was and or had seen Ghostbusters, and then your approximate age?
00:09:45:27 - 00:09:50:04
Red
Just. I'm doing a science experiment. I'm a fucking scientist. Okay. Anyway, but. Yeah.
00:09:50:04 - 00:09:56:34
Del
So this is really funny. So that there that it's like, what if it was real? Because it very much isn't. And it's even funnier because of this.
00:09:56:34 - 00:09:58:53
Red
So, the funniest part.
00:09:58:53 - 00:10:00:34
Del
About it is that at, at.
00:10:00:39 - 00:10:05:13
Red
Well, I guess I'm just like so many things.
00:10:05:13 - 00:10:19:10
Del
That are crazy and also weirdly well researched. This actually comes out of an unverified, true CIA program, 20 million USD back in the night, 1970s, the 1990s US dollars went into this.
00:10:19:15 - 00:10:21:01
Red
From 1975 to.
00:10:21:01 - 00:10:29:39
Del
1995, there was a project called the Stargate Project. The documents surrounding that came to light in the it, I believe, in the 90s.
00:10:29:43 - 00:10:32:51
Red
And it was an attempt to figure out the potential military applications.
00:10:32:51 - 00:10:37:07
Del
Of psychic phenomena. And no, I am absolutely not joking.
00:10:37:12 - 00:10:55:01
Sorry, I am looking up how much $20 million in 1999, 1990 to 2025 is, and it is $49 million. It's almost it's $49.5 million. That is insane. Why did we spend so much money on that?
00:10:55:06 - 00:10:58:12
Del
So that we can have freedom in places?
00:10:58:17 - 00:11:01:49
Okay. Yeah, yeah. You're right. I'm sorry. Oil. It was always oil.
00:11:01:57 - 00:11:05:10
Red
You like fossil fuels, right? You you you.
00:11:05:22 - 00:11:08:33
Gotta have remote viewing if you want your fossil fuel.
00:11:08:38 - 00:11:08:54
Red
Yeah.
00:11:08:56 - 00:11:10:10
Correct, correct.
00:11:10:15 - 00:11:11:13
Red
And that's why we spent.
00:11:11:13 - 00:11:14:06
Del
20 million 1970 or $90 on it.
00:11:14:06 - 00:11:19:37
Red
So, like, I got projects, the Stargate project from 1975 approximately to 19. No, no, no.
00:11:19:42 - 00:11:31:28
Del
I'm really glad you look that up. That's actually a really good context. It's a 40 million now or 50 million more or less now. Dollars were spent or could be more depending on when they actually funded this. But, yeah, the Stargate project.
00:11:31:33 - 00:11:33:18
Red
Is potential military applications.
00:11:33:18 - 00:11:53:04
Del
Of psychic phenomenon, CIA thing. The papers are out there. This is a matter of public record. I have done good. You know, I I'll have sources and stuff for that, obviously, but it's so much a thing that actually entered the zeitgeist as a based on a true story book slash film in the early aughts. So, you know, like, it is a known thing.
00:11:53:04 - 00:11:59:21
Del
So, like, I, I want to spend less time on the part of it. Like.
00:11:59:25 - 00:12:00:41
Red
This is not a conspiracy.
00:12:00:41 - 00:12:03:41
Del
This is documented and verified. So that's not the part about it.
00:12:03:41 - 00:12:06:03
Red
That's interesting. What's interesting, or I think.
00:12:06:03 - 00:12:11:27
Del
Worth commenting on is what remote viewing is. And then the idea that we spent real, actual resources on it.
00:12:11:27 - 00:12:12:55
Red
But we'll get to that. But really, the.
00:12:12:55 - 00:12:13:57
Del
Main thing that I love.
00:12:13:57 - 00:12:21:19
Red
Most about this is that it's the Stargate project, and it is just chef's kiss. It is. I mean, it's really.
00:12:21:19 - 00:12:24:10
Del
Got everything for like a good see, the Science Sunday they're.
00:12:24:10 - 00:12:26:42
Red
Consulting the there's a consultancy and.
00:12:26:42 - 00:12:27:01
Del
It's all.
00:12:27:01 - 00:12:29:34
Red
Grifters. It's larger than life CIA.
00:12:29:34 - 00:12:32:49
Del
Bullshit like MJ ultra type like we're going to like mind.
00:12:32:49 - 00:12:33:12
Red
Before.
00:12:33:12 - 00:12:38:35
Del
People and make Manchurian candidates. That's another very old movie.
00:12:38:40 - 00:12:40:03
Red
Like a sleeper cell.
00:12:40:08 - 00:12:41:42
Del
Like among us, basically.
00:12:41:47 - 00:12:42:59
Oh my God.
00:12:43:12 - 00:12:45:43
Del
Like Manchurian Candidate is basically among us.
00:12:45:48 - 00:12:57:05
It is, I do remember The Manchurian Candidate. I do remember that I this this is starting to feel less and less like a treat, but I'll. I'll take it. I'll take you know what?
00:12:57:05 - 00:12:58:21
Red
Oh, it's a treat. And we're spending.
00:12:58:21 - 00:12:59:27
Del
$50 million on.
00:12:59:27 - 00:13:05:51
Red
It. Goddamn, it's 100% verifiable. The CIA published all of it. They like. It's like. It's like, how dumb.
00:13:05:51 - 00:13:06:59
Del
Can you people be anyway?
00:13:07:12 - 00:13:11:38
Red
So, so remote viewing. Like I said, it's so it's I also mentioned.
00:13:11:38 - 00:13:14:07
Del
Earlier, it's kind of like diamonds are forever remote viewing is.
00:13:14:09 - 00:13:15:10
Red
This is like where it had.
00:13:15:10 - 00:13:20:26
Del
Evolved enough to be made a bit of in like a throwaway scene in the beginning of the movie Ghostbusters.
00:13:20:31 - 00:13:22:03
Red
Like that little.
00:13:22:03 - 00:13:30:11
Del
Bit about remote viewing doesn't come back at all. It's just a bit to kind of like, contextualize what kind of grifter the Bill Murray sort of is.
00:13:30:16 - 00:13:32:06
Red
And now that I've.
00:13:32:06 - 00:13:33:40
Del
Read that, I,
00:13:33:45 - 00:13:34:51
Red
I found that very intriguing.
00:13:34:51 - 00:13:42:41
Del
Because as I read more about this, I realized that was like a whoever came up with that part of the movie really understood their pseudoscience history.
00:13:42:55 - 00:13:44:25
Red
Because the idea of.
00:13:44:25 - 00:13:47:49
Del
Remote viewing actually goes back really quite far.
00:13:47:54 - 00:13:50:03
Red
So it's like the, the.
00:13:50:07 - 00:14:03:38
Del
School of thought that this comes from or is most representative of, I would say is like Western esotericism, or whatever. Like it's just like a fancy new age way of saying it.
00:14:03:39 - 00:14:03:50
Red
Yeah.
00:14:03:52 - 00:14:11:03
Del
Spiritualism. But capitalists, in the late 1800s, this was like the American spiritualist movement had a lot to do with us.
00:14:11:07 - 00:14:12:01
Red
The best description.
00:14:12:01 - 00:14:20:31
Del
Of remote viewing itself is by one of the old esotericism slash New Age writers, called Rosemary. I believe Gilly g u I l e y.
00:14:20:36 - 00:14:21:21
Red
So I want you to kind of.
00:14:21:21 - 00:14:25:28
Del
Think about it like this. 400 minutes on.
00:14:25:37 - 00:14:26:55
Red
Seeing remote.
00:14:27:00 - 00:14:36:51
Del
Or hidden objects. Clairvoyant with the inner eye or using, or employing alleged out-of-body travel, air quotes. Travel.
00:14:36:55 - 00:14:39:32
Red
So it's some mix between.
00:14:39:32 - 00:14:45:24
Del
Either depending on, interpreter of the practitioner. It is either.
00:14:45:28 - 00:14:47:03
Red
Astral projection.
00:14:47:07 - 00:14:58:26
Del
And or using one's third eye or inner eye to see information that is at a physical distance or otherwise physically occluded from the person who is getting that.
00:14:58:26 - 00:15:01:04
Red
Information. See, in the literal sense.
00:15:01:04 - 00:15:03:22
Del
Or it can be, you know, perceive.
00:15:03:27 - 00:15:07:31
Red
ESP, but like it's this is what I like, the slipperiness of.
00:15:07:31 - 00:15:11:33
Del
What it is, is part of probably why it has like some sort of enduring power.
00:15:11:38 - 00:15:14:30
Red
But this goes back to like the mid 18.
00:15:14:34 - 00:15:18:10
Del
The, the mid 1800s, mid 19th century. If you're nasty and there are.
00:15:18:10 - 00:15:19:57
Red
Actually some serious.
00:15:19:57 - 00:15:43:08
Del
Heavyweight scientists and historians who got behind it and people that I would say are well admired and recognized in the I recognize and really, really admire. And I think that's the connection I think that's worth getting into, because I do think that there's things like remote viewing, American spiritualism, and esotericism and new agey ness never really.
00:15:43:08 - 00:15:43:49
Red
Faded.
00:15:43:49 - 00:15:55:30
Del
Out. I think we treat them, at least my understanding of how we eat and the all of us, the royal we, the zeitgeist treats it, is that it was like that was like the spooky before times and it was funny TV, vaudeville.
00:15:55:35 - 00:15:56:42
Red
But
00:15:56:47 - 00:15:57:03
Yeah.
00:15:57:14 - 00:16:11:44
Del
And then we stopped doing that, but we didn't really, and I think that this has a really big connection to how we view things now. And honestly, the great American pastime of, selling and being allowed to sell like grifting, like.
00:16:11:49 - 00:16:12:41
Red
Fake health.
00:16:12:41 - 00:16:16:54
Del
Pseudoscience products to spin a buck as the great American tradition.
00:16:16:58 - 00:16:18:12
Red
And part of what I.
00:16:18:12 - 00:16:21:21
Del
Think gives it a piece of legitimacy is this thing we don't talk about enough people.
00:16:21:21 - 00:16:21:34
Red
Like.
00:16:21:34 - 00:16:22:03
Del
Michael.
00:16:22:03 - 00:16:22:42
Red
Faraday.
00:16:22:42 - 00:16:26:30
Del
And Alfred Russel Wallace.
00:16:26:34 - 00:16:32:46
Wow. All those names. I know those names. And for me to know those names, Wow. Okay. Yeah.
00:16:32:51 - 00:16:33:21
Red
I don't know why.
00:16:33:21 - 00:16:35:07
Del
You're catching the strays on your own. Show my guy.
00:16:35:07 - 00:16:40:13
Red
But, like. Yeah, but no, that's like the, like, Michael Faraday.
00:16:40:13 - 00:16:52:06
Del
For those of you who don't know, he's a very famous English chemist and physicist. Important, still enduring basis, for the research into magnetism. And he also developed the idea of the Faraday cage. And that's.
00:16:52:06 - 00:16:56:52
That's what it is, the Faraday cage. I was just about to look on. I was like, Faraday box. Faraday. That's what it is.
00:16:56:52 - 00:17:00:03
Red
Yeah, yeah. And and if you're wondering, well, what the living.
00:17:00:03 - 00:17:20:40
Del
Fuck is a Faraday cage lit? Dear listener, you know that as any time that your cell phone, basically doesn't have service because of where you are or because of the material surrounding you, that is because you're partially in a Faraday cage is a way that you could put it. It's just a blockage for, in very general terms, it blocks em signaling from going out across particular wavelengths and frequencies.
00:17:20:45 - 00:17:41:34
Del
Why am I bringing that up? Because Faraday is still revered as a big time, important scientist. And, now and his research in the mid 1800s basically informs the ability to live the way that we do with respect to our technology, anything that involves magnetism or electricity. Alfred Russel Wallace was, another person who researched into a remote viewing.
00:17:41:34 - 00:18:00:16
Del
At the time, he was an English naturalist, anthropologist, a biologist and illustrator who independently I right around right around the same time, came up with a lot of the mechanisms, or proposed them as theories for evolution and natural selection alongside Darwin. He actually published about that in 1858 with extracts quoting Darwin. Finally, there.
00:18:00:16 - 00:18:00:46
Red
Are a couple of.
00:18:00:46 - 00:18:21:55
Del
Other people that I think are really relevant to this that are also like famous, but I think I have more to the story, and I think there are perfect like pivot to getting into this here. So another person, a bit less famous, but really big in these paranormal, parapsychology and pseudoscience circles. Is Rufus Osgood Mason, surgeon, in the mid 1800s.
00:18:21:55 - 00:18:24:49
Del
So a barber,
00:18:24:54 - 00:18:25:15
Red
Who did a.
00:18:25:15 - 00:18:29:39
Del
Lot of work in parapsychology and hypnotherapy, I would say it's a mixed legacy.
00:18:29:43 - 00:18:32:44
Red
He was a Union Army assistant surgeon.
00:18:32:49 - 00:18:42:09
Del
During for the Navy, that is. Sorry. He taught in a public school in Cleveland that he actually was part responsible for the education of William Rockefeller. Briefly.
00:18:42:14 - 00:18:43:17
Red
Then he married.
00:18:43:17 - 00:19:07:10
Del
Charlotte Louise Quick, making him a part of the Harlem Renaissance. But also, he was a big piece of, like, hypnotherapy and parapsychology. Then finally, another piece of, like, people who, like, really considered remote viewing a real thing. Last person I promised and just I and I want to really highlight this because I think it is the thing we don't discuss is how much pseudoscience and legitimate, quote unquote, legitimization and professionalization of science is a relatively new thing.
00:19:07:15 - 00:19:24:18
Del
And we don't probably address that enough. And I think it gives a lot of context to why these sorts of, like, weird things are still pervasive and live in our modern days, like Geist, although it's 2025. The last guy then is Sir William Crookes, a chemist and physicist. He invented the vacuum tube.
00:19:24:23 - 00:19:25:31
Red
Oh, yeah, I know that name.
00:19:25:31 - 00:19:26:34
Del
Spectroscopy.
00:19:26:39 - 00:19:28:26
Red
Yeah. And he discovered the element.
00:19:28:26 - 00:19:30:19
Del
Thallium using spectroscopy. So, like, I.
00:19:30:19 - 00:19:34:05
Think we know him is the thallium. Yeah.
00:19:34:10 - 00:19:35:20
Red
Thallium and gallium.
00:19:35:20 - 00:19:38:07
Del
Both, I believe, are are metals in the middle of the.
00:19:38:07 - 00:19:41:42
Red
Periodic table. And they have, they're interesting because they're solid. Say it has a melting point that is.
00:19:41:42 - 00:19:44:16
Del
Slightly lower than body temperature. So you can hold it in your hand. It'll melt.
00:19:44:27 - 00:19:45:31
Red
Oh.
00:19:45:36 - 00:19:47:52
Del
It's quite interesting. Compelling visual, but,
00:19:48:07 - 00:19:48:30
Red
Any.
00:19:48:30 - 00:19:54:09
Del
Modern day, the precursor to modern day televisions and screens are based on vacuum tubes, right?
00:19:54:09 - 00:19:56:04
Yep, yep. So.
00:19:56:09 - 00:19:59:36
Red
So so this is like, you could say, like it's an all star cast.
00:19:59:36 - 00:20:04:22
Del
Of scientists and historians, current people that I would genuinely fangirl about just because of their body of work and.
00:20:04:22 - 00:20:17:56
Have, yeah, innovators, actual innovators, like, pushing. Yeah. Pushing boundaries. And maybe, maybe that's what motivated them to jump into the remote viewing thing because it was this might be the next huge thing, you know.
00:20:17:56 - 00:20:19:33
Red
So and remote viewing is.
00:20:19:33 - 00:20:21:18
Del
Genuinely nonsense, right.
00:20:21:18 - 00:20:23:56
Red
So like to be clear. But they did like.
00:20:23:56 - 00:20:26:03
So like did they.
00:20:26:08 - 00:20:30:57
Red
Know. But they tried to. Right. So and here's the face. Like there are people that did like Faraday for example.
00:20:30:57 - 00:20:33:25
Del
Great great example of this.
00:20:33:30 - 00:20:35:07
Red
He would hesitate to publish.
00:20:35:20 - 00:20:40:55
Del
A lot of the stuff really strong. Like he would hesitate unless he had a really good evidence and he never felt that he had very good evidence about it.
00:20:41:06 - 00:20:41:56
Red
But even the stuff that he.
00:20:41:56 - 00:20:42:54
Del
Kind of did believe.
00:20:42:54 - 00:20:44:34
Red
He felt.
00:20:44:34 - 00:20:48:05
Del
Precluded because of stigma at the time, to be fair to him about talking.
00:20:48:05 - 00:20:53:58
Red
About it. Because basically he really believes that the scientific.
00:20:53:58 - 00:21:02:27
Del
Knowledge base of all people is the shared property of humankind. It should be treated responsibly. So he doesn't want to put stuff into it that he's not very sure about was his thinking.
00:21:02:27 - 00:21:03:07
I think that's fair.
00:21:03:14 - 00:21:05:42
Red
Like it's yeah, exactly.
00:21:05:42 - 00:21:13:39
Del
It's his paradigm. He was a really big believer in that thing, the scientific method, as it were, and we still absorb. But whatever. So I want to give a balanced perspective.
00:21:13:39 - 00:21:15:14
Red
Like he researched this.
00:21:15:14 - 00:21:29:25
Del
And had some possible belief in it, but he considered it like an off hours thing, as far as I can tell. Like, you know, his personal thing like could be something out there like I don't, you know, the scientists, scientist who had the view that, like, I can't rule this out, but because of that, I. It doesn't mean that I can rule it in.
00:21:29:25 - 00:21:31:36
Del
It just exists in that gray area.
00:21:31:40 - 00:21:33:45
Red
So he didn't. And he kept that.
00:21:33:45 - 00:21:42:40
Del
Out of a lot of his main line work for the Imperial College of London. And then, you know, his main literature, publications for scientific literature.
00:21:42:45 - 00:21:44:00
Red
Because of stigma and.
00:21:44:00 - 00:21:51:41
Del
Also because I don't think he felt he had good evidence, from what I can gather. The reason I'm bringing that up, the stigma space specifically, is because the.
00:21:51:50 - 00:21:52:46
Red
Guy who really.
00:21:52:46 - 00:22:13:19
Del
Popularized, remote viewing, and was a big proponent of it in the United States, was also one of the people that really kind of gave paranormal performance. And studies and parapsychology into the mainstream. He gave it its birth into the mainstream, pushed it through his little book.
00:22:13:24 - 00:22:15:55
Red
So the guy, in question then.
00:22:15:55 - 00:22:18:50
Del
So I just to make sure I'm being very clear here.
00:22:18:59 - 00:22:20:24
Red
So we've talked about some.
00:22:20:24 - 00:22:40:22
Del
Legit people who looked into this and they had a more balanced take about it. But again, even without that bit of context, you don't realize. Right. And then history for this kind of picks up with the ending of American spiritualism into the 1930s in the US. When the person in question, JB Ryan, which I forgotten what his, j b stands for.
00:22:40:22 - 00:22:43:25
Del
So I'm left. It's him. It's giant bussy.
00:22:43:30 - 00:22:45:49
Red
So so.
00:22:45:54 - 00:22:52:46
Del
The great book Ryan expanded paranormal performance studies into larger populations.
00:22:52:51 - 00:22:55:53
Red
And kind of like a giant with.
00:22:55:53 - 00:23:00:11
Oh, it's a giant with a J. Threw me off. I,
00:23:00:16 - 00:23:03:34
Red
Listen, don't shave his culture, okay? He does.
00:23:03:34 - 00:23:05:07
Del
He, like, reads books and stuff.
00:23:05:13 - 00:23:17:48
I like, saw it spelled out in my mind. And a giant with a J for some reason. Not bussy, not them together, but giant with a J. Anyway, please. I'm sorry. Please continue. I could not compose myself.
00:23:17:52 - 00:23:18:24
Red
Oh, well.
00:23:18:25 - 00:23:19:46
Del
See also with the J.
00:23:19:51 - 00:23:21:01
Red
To be clear, yes.
00:23:21:06 - 00:23:25:04
Del
Move in silence like the J and I say. I hope this.
00:23:25:04 - 00:23:37:57
Red
Helps, I hate it, I hate it so much. It's fun. Yeah. So, so so the great.
00:23:37:57 - 00:23:39:18
Del
George Blizzard arrived and.
00:23:39:27 - 00:23:48:28
Red
Basically came up with this idea of taking, like, scientific method, like a large sample sizes and standardized.
00:23:48:28 - 00:23:49:40
Del
Experiment protocols.
00:23:49:40 - 00:23:50:34
Red
You know, like good.
00:23:50:34 - 00:24:02:53
Del
Things that make the scientific method capital T, capital S, capital M, TM, you know, make it the standard for good research even now. And honestly, even among people who are grifters.
00:24:02:58 - 00:24:10:50
Red
He even was a little bit hesitant to publicize due to stigma, but he did sometimes.
00:24:10:55 - 00:24:20:54
Del
So anyway, that's the bird eye view of J.B. Ryan's. I'm going to talk a lot about J.B. Ryan's right now and the history of remote viewing and how, like like kind of like his relationship to it and then.
00:24:21:03 - 00:24:21:55
Red
How he expanded.
00:24:21:55 - 00:24:24:58
Del
Parapsychology with remote viewing being a piece of this and how it connects.
00:24:25:03 - 00:24:25:49
Red
But I just wanted to give you.
00:24:25:49 - 00:24:28:22
Del
An idea of, like, this has been going on.
00:24:28:31 - 00:24:29:18
Red
People have been.
00:24:29:18 - 00:24:35:21
Del
Talking about this and kind of like getting obsessed with it for a really long time.
00:24:35:25 - 00:24:42:00
Red
So J.B. Ryan's. Basically, I think what I want you to really pay attention.
00:24:42:00 - 00:24:45:31
Del
To or like think about in the context of is the research methods.
00:24:45:36 - 00:24:46:13
Red
And was.
00:24:46:13 - 00:24:48:09
Not the book.
00:24:48:14 - 00:24:48:45
Red
Not the.
00:24:48:45 - 00:24:49:40
Blessing, damn it.
00:24:49:42 - 00:24:50:33
Red
I mean, you can.
00:24:50:34 - 00:24:52:21
Del
If you can look past it or through it, but.
00:24:52:21 - 00:24:52:58
Red
If you can't.
00:24:52:58 - 00:24:54:16
Del
Then I would. Yeah.
00:24:54:21 - 00:24:54:42
Red
It just.
00:24:54:43 - 00:24:55:46
Encompasses.
00:24:55:51 - 00:24:59:22
Del
It's it, it's large.
00:24:59:27 - 00:25:00:23
Red
I know the larger the.
00:25:00:23 - 00:25:02:47
J at the beginning. Right. Yeah.
00:25:02:47 - 00:25:06:11
Del
He's correct, not a silent J. It's large.
00:25:06:16 - 00:25:09:23
Red
But, so I think this will make.
00:25:09:23 - 00:25:20:10
Del
Clear the, the eventual inspiration for the Stargate project and how it contributed to the pseudoscience narrative in the US and its weird persistence in the mainstream.
00:25:20:15 - 00:25:20:49
Red
It's just kind of.
00:25:20:49 - 00:25:30:31
Del
Obstinate, right? It's this weird, obstinate stain. It won't come out of the fabric of our cultural understanding, and it's worth looking at why that is. And I think a really big piece of it is that people.
00:25:30:36 - 00:25:31:53
Red
You know, smarter people.
00:25:31:53 - 00:25:46:57
Del
And with a greater capacity for critical thinking, and credentialed for it than I or any of us really have addressed this and gave it some kind of time of day. We understand better now. There is no time of day, realistically, to be given to it, but.
00:25:46:57 - 00:25:47:54
Red
It's because people.
00:25:47:54 - 00:25:56:53
Del
Did work to legitimately understand that, and it didn't muddy the water in the way that I think it's muddy now. So let me talk about J.B. rights.
00:25:56:58 - 00:26:05:18
Red
So, the Ryan man, basically his contributions are he introduces the word parapsychology and adds a quote unquote.
00:26:05:18 - 00:26:06:56
Del
Methodology to it,
00:26:07:01 - 00:26:08:57
Red
Which eventually starts.
00:26:09:01 - 00:26:09:27
Del
Giving it.
00:26:09:27 - 00:26:10:26
Red
The infrastructure slash.
00:26:10:33 - 00:26:15:58
Del
Institutions that are kind of required for parapsychology, too. Heavy air quotes here professionalize.
00:26:16:03 - 00:26:17:06
Red
So he establishes the.
00:26:17:06 - 00:26:20:20
Del
Journal of Parapsychology and the Ryan Research Center at.
00:26:20:34 - 00:26:23:22
Red
Duke. The thing with this is that he did a lot of studies.
00:26:23:22 - 00:26:27:47
Del
Around remote viewing, like where he would do that sort of study, like,
00:26:27:52 - 00:26:28:51
Red
He would basically try.
00:26:28:51 - 00:26:30:45
Del
To get people to guess, like what.
00:26:30:59 - 00:26:31:20
Red
You'd have.
00:26:31:21 - 00:26:32:15
Del
Like a deck of cards.
00:26:32:22 - 00:26:35:09
Red
Functionally. And he would have.
00:26:35:09 - 00:26:54:00
Del
It, like facing him and try to get these subjects, his research subjects, to detect them using their third eye or whatever, via remote viewing. That was like his study. And what he did was he couched it in the terms and set up of good, legit science. So he would have like, you know, he would report it like the way that you do, like a good lab report and university or whatever.
00:26:54:00 - 00:26:54:14
Del
Right.
00:26:54:27 - 00:26:58:40
Red
This sample size, these are my methods. This is the statistics.
00:26:58:40 - 00:27:13:03
Del
I use to determine if the result of my study was because of like a correlation between the variable, which is ESP or remote viewing being real and the ability to use it to detect what was on the card, or if it was just due to.
00:27:13:03 - 00:27:15:46
Red
Chance. Now. And this is.
00:27:15:46 - 00:27:17:42
Del
Where it's really, really important.
00:27:17:42 - 00:27:20:00
Red
So he does this. He does these studies.
00:27:20:00 - 00:27:23:36
Del
At his institute and later at Duke for a really, really long time.
00:27:23:51 - 00:27:25:03
Red
He had very, very.
00:27:25:03 - 00:27:27:24
Del
Poor record keeping.
00:27:27:28 - 00:27:29:27
Red
And he had his methodology.
00:27:29:27 - 00:27:33:47
Del
Obviously also had problems because you can't really test for ESP, but.
00:27:33:52 - 00:27:34:30
Red
People tried to.
00:27:34:30 - 00:27:35:27
Del
Reproduce it though, right?
00:27:35:27 - 00:27:35:47
Red
So in the.
00:27:35:47 - 00:27:36:30
Del
1930s.
00:27:36:30 - 00:27:37:30
Red
And 1936.
00:27:37:30 - 00:27:38:46
Del
At Princeton.
00:27:38:51 - 00:27:39:36
Red
There's a.
00:27:39:41 - 00:27:43:00
Del
A relatively famous attempt to reproduce it by a gentleman,
00:27:43:04 - 00:27:45:19
Red
Cox with 132.
00:27:45:19 - 00:27:45:57
Del
Subjects.
00:27:45:57 - 00:27:48:28
Red
And to, 25,000.
00:27:48:28 - 00:27:53:16
Del
Approximately 25,064 trials that had playing card ESP experiments like that.
00:27:53:16 - 00:27:55:01
Red
And basically they created the.
00:27:55:01 - 00:28:11:27
Del
Conditions for that experiment the same way that JB Rines had done his. And they found no evidence of ESP or remote viewing that was observable. Although when Ryan would do it, he was able to supposedly get people like his.
00:28:11:36 - 00:28:12:14
Red
He would be able.
00:28:12:14 - 00:28:20:24
Del
To observe like 1 or 2 of his assistants actually having a statistically significant increased, quote unquote, ability to detect the playing cards.
00:28:20:24 - 00:28:22:33
Red
Now he publishes these.
00:28:22:33 - 00:28:23:31
Del
Results and mentions it.
00:28:23:31 - 00:28:25:06
Red
But, there's a way to.
00:28:25:06 - 00:28:29:58
Del
Frame this in your methods that indicate like that you might have, flaws in your methodology.
00:28:29:58 - 00:28:33:36
Red
And he was not particularly.
00:28:33:36 - 00:28:35:22
Del
Honest, I think.
00:28:35:27 - 00:28:38:37
About making so shocking.
00:28:38:42 - 00:28:39:36
Red
Yeah, I know.
00:28:39:36 - 00:28:41:35
I am steadiest.
00:28:41:40 - 00:28:43:06
Red
The ESP guy is like, God.
00:28:43:08 - 00:28:45:18
Del
Is a little bit grimy but tries to appear legitimate.
00:28:45:18 - 00:28:47:36
Red
Yeah, it's like a more like I would say he's the equivalent of.
00:28:47:36 - 00:28:52:05
Del
A used car salesman. In like, professional science.
00:28:52:10 - 00:28:53:54
Red
I don't want to say professional, like in the.
00:28:53:54 - 00:28:54:55
Del
Scientific literature.
00:28:54:55 - 00:28:55:53
Red
And basically just kind of.
00:28:55:53 - 00:28:57:34
Del
Serves to muddy the water at some level.
00:28:57:39 - 00:29:03:10
Red
But, I want to, you know, giving it it's fair to do. So his poor record keeping, basically people.
00:29:03:10 - 00:29:05:31
Del
Reviewed it. Right. So, Leonard.
00:29:05:31 - 00:29:06:00
Red
00:29:06:00 - 00:29:13:18
Del
I believe is just an excuse me, and Warren Jones are two big time historians of science.
00:29:13:22 - 00:29:15:02
Red
They would.
00:29:15:07 - 00:29:16:13
Del
They reviewed his methods.
00:29:16:13 - 00:29:17:06
Red
And noted that the people.
00:29:17:06 - 00:29:25:40
Del
In Ryan's studies would actually help checking their own result of the like, called the order of the cards that the person was holding. They would check the results of their own thing, and.
00:29:25:40 - 00:29:26:15
Red
Sometimes they might.
00:29:26:15 - 00:29:28:24
Del
Even see the correct order before the test.
00:29:28:39 - 00:29:29:42
Red
Ryan did a bad job.
00:29:29:42 - 00:29:44:15
Del
In other words, keeping subjects from being able to get hints, clues, or insight or like sometimes even being able to see the cards that the person was holding in the reflection of the glasses of the examiner.
00:29:44:20 - 00:29:44:47
Red
It's just.
00:29:44:47 - 00:29:45:49
Del
Sloppy.
00:29:45:54 - 00:29:47:36
Red
There's a phenomenon called clever.
00:29:47:36 - 00:29:49:55
Del
Hanzi, which is like the horse who can count.
00:29:50:00 - 00:29:51:55
Red
But like, allegedly. And it would.
00:29:51:55 - 00:30:00:36
Del
Stomp its hoof enough times for the correct number. But the clever Hanzi phenomenon actually has a Wikipedia entry, which is worth reading, I think for any person who's interested in this.
00:30:00:41 - 00:30:01:58
Red
What it indicates is.
00:30:01:58 - 00:30:08:12
Del
That, like the horse is able to detect people's anticipation of when the correct number of counts is approaching.
00:30:08:16 - 00:30:12:36
Red
Better than we thought. Yeah, right. And this is like a thing that goes.
00:30:12:36 - 00:30:18:07
Del
Back to like, you know, when there was not even people hadn't gotten together and decided to do a Germany, it was still a Prussia.
00:30:18:12 - 00:30:19:13
Oh wow. Okay.
00:30:19:15 - 00:30:25:14
Del
Right. Like, so we know about this. This is like right around in the 1800s. We're talking, you know, like.
00:30:25:19 - 00:30:26:33
Red
The conditions that immediately.
00:30:26:33 - 00:30:29:58
Del
Gave rise to World War one. People were asking these questions.
00:30:30:03 - 00:30:31:48
Red
Interesting. Clever. Hans.
00:30:31:48 - 00:30:32:56
Del
He goes back that far. And this.
00:30:32:56 - 00:30:33:54
Red
Is like, you know, the same.
00:30:33:54 - 00:30:35:40
Del
Thing. It's clever, Hans is just that, like.
00:30:35:45 - 00:30:37:39
Red
Somebody's basically the worst person, you.
00:30:37:39 - 00:30:40:50
Del
Know, learn science therapy, speak.
00:30:40:55 - 00:30:42:43
Red
Basically I so my problems.
00:30:42:43 - 00:30:44:13
Del
With remote viewing are.
00:30:44:25 - 00:30:44:58
Red
One of them.
00:30:44:58 - 00:30:52:03
Del
I kind of have gotten into the methodology and people who have reviewed this in many, many cases have never been able to reproduce Ryan's results, which.
00:30:52:03 - 00:30:53:28
Red
Is already like.
00:30:53:33 - 00:31:04:36
Del
Bad enough. This is enough of a smoking gun to say if this is an outright in bad faith bullshit, it is in good faith, very poorly conducted science which should not be trusted.
00:31:04:40 - 00:31:07:55
Red
But yeah, making and also like, it's not like you have to be.
00:31:07:55 - 00:31:12:25
Del
A genius to detect why this would mess things up. You're trying to say somebody could detect something via telepathy.
00:31:12:30 - 00:31:13:39
Red
And you're asking them to.
00:31:13:39 - 00:31:22:27
Del
Report on the honor system A and B, like not even doing a good job to make sure they can't see the thing beforehand.
00:31:22:31 - 00:31:22:55
Red
So you.
00:31:22:55 - 00:31:27:46
Del
Know, like, that's either fatally naive or like, in attempts to, like, frame the narrative, in my.
00:31:27:46 - 00:31:36:02
Opinion. Yeah. It's like it's like writing a dissertation on a magic trick, but trying to convince people that it's real magic through the dissertation.
00:31:36:07 - 00:31:40:12
Red
Yup. And like and like and worse, it's like you might know.
00:31:40:12 - 00:31:42:22
Del
That the magic trick is not real.
00:31:42:27 - 00:31:43:53
Red
But like, you're trying to take the.
00:31:43:53 - 00:31:44:36
Del
Position that it.
00:31:44:36 - 00:31:44:56
Red
Is.
00:31:44:56 - 00:31:49:36
Weirdly, yeah. Because you're gain to you stand to gain something from it.
00:31:49:40 - 00:31:51:42
Red
Like, are you dumb.
00:31:51:46 - 00:31:53:26
Del
Disingenuous or both?
00:31:53:31 - 00:31:54:52
Probably both.
00:31:54:57 - 00:32:00:23
Red
That's my field. Yeah, yeah. So having said that, so Ryan also did really bad.
00:32:00:23 - 00:32:05:21
Del
Math, overestimating the statistical significance of his results.
00:32:05:25 - 00:32:08:29
Red
And again, that's a really big problem. We've talked before.
00:32:08:29 - 00:32:14:24
Del
On this show about the statistical significance, the concept of validating a study.
00:32:14:29 - 00:32:16:39
Red
Using, in short, it's.
00:32:16:39 - 00:32:17:45
Del
Called a p value.
00:32:17:45 - 00:32:19:33
Red
Is you can compute a p.
00:32:19:33 - 00:32:24:29
Del
Value if you consider, an experiment model with a variable with whatever.
00:32:24:34 - 00:32:25:06
Red
If you set up a.
00:32:25:06 - 00:32:29:16
Del
Study like this, you have a variable that you're measuring. And then other everything else is set. You can compute.
00:32:29:16 - 00:32:33:37
Red
There's a set of via your sample size, a variety of things that are a.
00:32:33:37 - 00:32:40:03
Del
Bit baroque to get into here because like, I'm trying to sum up like a year of my undergraduate education to like tell you.
00:32:40:13 - 00:32:41:04
Red
What I'm saying is there's a.
00:32:41:04 - 00:33:11:29
Del
Legit way to tell using, p values, which is a statistical tool. It's a constant number set based on your experiment conditions and your study, study size, etc., that determines whether how, whether or not what you did is getting you results because of chance or because of the actual connection or lack thereof between the thing that you're studying and the effect, in this case, the existence of remote viewing and the effect, of people able to channel that on being able to report back a better score on detecting the cards.
00:33:11:38 - 00:33:12:39
Red
If you picked the wrong.
00:33:12:39 - 00:33:13:40
Del
P value, or like there's.
00:33:13:40 - 00:33:14:07
Red
Plenty of ways.
00:33:14:07 - 00:33:21:25
Del
That you can maneuver that so that you can make a correlation out of data that otherwise might not be related. That's also well known.
00:33:21:30 - 00:33:23:06
Red
That's why you have to publish these things.
00:33:23:06 - 00:33:31:43
Del
Including your methods, so that when people review, they're like, no, wait. Like this doesn't make sense. When you review a somebody's study and you put it into a publication, right.
00:33:31:48 - 00:33:32:33
Red
People have to look.
00:33:32:33 - 00:33:37:21
Del
At it first. Other people in experts in that field, and they review it and they're like, yeah, yeah.
00:33:37:26 - 00:33:39:06
Red
Yeah. You got their peer review.
00:33:39:10 - 00:33:49:39
Del
Part of it is being able to look and be like, hey, I don't I'm not sure about your numbers here. Like your I don't think they used a good value here or like you know you need to review this and make this edit or re crunch your numbers.
00:33:49:39 - 00:33:50:11
Red
With bad.
00:33:50:11 - 00:34:08:26
Del
Methods and a badly chosen, and badly chosen p values or anything else like that, you can absolutely still report it as though you have like done something correct. It's just that like, where are you publishing? Well, in his own institution, in his own journal.
00:34:08:31 - 00:34:09:39
Red
Well, it also also.
00:34:09:39 - 00:34:28:37
I don't think we've maybe we've talked about it briefly on this show, but, p value manipulation has been a thing for a long time, too. Yeah. And it's a huge problem. Yeah, yeah. And I, I can't help but think that if somebody is recognizing that the math is bad, that that's intentional. You know what I mean? It's hard to do.
00:34:28:42 - 00:34:40:19
Yeah. Like, it's sure it's easy to do bad math, but to do it in what a peer review. What would be peer reviewed that feels purposeful, that feels malicious in a way, you know.
00:34:40:24 - 00:34:41:04
Del
I agree.
00:34:41:04 - 00:34:42:05
Red
It's either it's either.
00:34:42:05 - 00:34:47:25
Del
Malicious or at the very least like, an unacceptable degree, degree of reckless negligence.
00:34:47:25 - 00:34:49:10
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah.
00:34:49:15 - 00:34:55:52
Del
At the very least, if I'm giving this guy the absolute benefit of the doubt. But honestly, I haven't even told you the best part yet. Oh, no.
00:34:55:56 - 00:34:56:29
Red
Well, I.
00:34:56:29 - 00:34:59:00
Del
Mean, like, it's it's it is actually an objectively good part, so.
00:34:59:00 - 00:35:00:33
Red
Friend of the pod.
00:35:00:37 - 00:35:04:45
Del
Historian of science, Martin Gardner from the pseudoscience study.
00:35:04:49 - 00:35:09:10
Red
Dude, that guy was the goat he studied. So he studied Ryan's history, and he's, like a big.
00:35:09:10 - 00:35:13:56
Del
Part of the pseudoscience debunking movement. Oh, hell yeah. Like, basically wrote the principles of it.
00:35:14:11 - 00:35:16:54
Red
He we briefly talked about Martin Gardner.
00:35:16:58 - 00:35:18:03
Del
In phrenology.
00:35:18:14 - 00:35:20:13
Oh, right, I do not. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:20:13 - 00:35:21:32
Red
Gardner comes up is going to come up.
00:35:21:32 - 00:35:23:22
Del
A lot in these because he's kind of the goat.
00:35:23:22 - 00:35:32:11
Red
But, so basically what he said. So he did a really thorough analysis of this and looked at his methodologies in the data, and he basically was.
00:35:32:11 - 00:35:35:46
Del
Able to demonstrate that, that is, Rines.
00:35:35:51 - 00:35:39:56
Red
Didn't like he tried to reproduce his results.
00:35:40:01 - 00:35:43:57
Del
And would like, not get that many of the times, most of the time.
00:35:44:02 - 00:35:45:00
Red
But what he would do is just.
00:35:45:00 - 00:35:46:21
Del
Not publish the failures.
00:35:46:30 - 00:35:47:53
Red
And also, like.
00:35:47:58 - 00:35:53:38
Del
Didn't report on his thing, didn't make a disclosure that the names of the names of the assistants in his lab who.
00:35:53:38 - 00:35:54:23
Red
He actually.
00:35:54:23 - 00:35:56:46
Del
Caught cheating during the study.
00:35:56:51 - 00:36:01:17
Red
What? Oh, yeah. And the Ryan's lab had a quote unquote secrecy policy.
00:36:01:17 - 00:36:03:57
Del
So, like, you couldn't mention, like, the results outside of it.
00:36:03:59 - 00:36:05:48
Oh my God.
00:36:05:52 - 00:36:08:07
Red
And then there were a bunch of people that would come.
00:36:08:07 - 00:36:14:42
Del
And, like, observe the study. There was a, gentleman Huber, a Pierce. I said the Huber, but I meant Huber.
00:36:14:47 - 00:36:28:03
Red
Huber, Huber. Huber, baby. Sorry. You bussy you see someone J yeah. Could never so so so Pierce would come and observe these and would.
00:36:28:03 - 00:36:37:13
Del
Know that Gardner never got above chance or, like a statistically significant result when people besides the experimenter himself, Ryan's or his lab assistants were witnessing the study.
00:36:37:13 - 00:36:38:00
Oh my God.
00:36:38:11 - 00:36:39:14
Red
And his subjects only.
00:36:39:14 - 00:36:47:34
Del
Would otherwise get good results if they were the ones shuffling the cards and one of his colleagues in that lab, Walter Levi, got caught falsifying data for animal s.
00:36:47:43 - 00:36:52:46
Red
Tests. And although they weren't on the same project, this justifiably.
00:36:52:46 - 00:36:55:48
Del
Did damage to the field. Overall, I.
00:36:55:48 - 00:37:17:42
Guess my question at this point is, what was it about this that had it had to be true, it had to be real. Why not just publish? Hey, I found out this is not a real thing. Like what is what is the. That is so conspiratorial. It's crazy. Like the internet. He built that up to be a secret because he wanted it to be real.
00:37:17:42 - 00:37:19:43
He wanted it to be real so bad.
00:37:19:48 - 00:37:24:59
Red
Yes. I'm so glad you asked that question. Like, why not do that? And then like and kind of.
00:37:24:59 - 00:37:29:08
Del
Also I'm hearing you ask like, so what was the basis for this thing? Like why get so hung up about it.
00:37:29:13 - 00:37:33:27
Red
Yeah because and this is the best fucking part. So another.
00:37:33:27 - 00:37:37:27
Del
Historian, another goat, fantastic writer, Ruth Brandom.
00:37:37:31 - 00:37:39:45
Red
Basically, she noted that he did not have.
00:37:39:45 - 00:37:42:10
Del
Objective or balanced research at all.
00:37:42:10 - 00:37:46:04
Red
Like because of the fact that he had the ideas behind.
00:37:46:04 - 00:37:47:06
Del
Remote viewing.
00:37:47:11 - 00:37:48:07
Red
And a lot of.
00:37:48:07 - 00:37:49:58
Del
The spiritualism stuff that he was into.
00:37:49:58 - 00:37:51:07
Red
Was motivated by.
00:37:51:07 - 00:37:53:48
Del
This other philosophy school called vitalism.
00:37:53:52 - 00:38:00:57
Red
Which is the idea that living organisms are different somehow inherently from non-living things by the presence of some force or.
00:38:00:57 - 00:38:02:31
Del
Property or power which is not.
00:38:02:31 - 00:38:03:00
Red
Physical.
00:38:03:00 - 00:38:04:59
Del
Nor chemical.
00:38:05:04 - 00:38:17:25
Red
In other words, basically it's kind of like the existence of medical science and StarWars basically like they have like basically it's like animate logic. It's like things have a life aura. It's like another pseudoscience thing, like vitalism is its.
00:38:17:25 - 00:38:19:08
Del
Own pseudoscience thing, and it's the.
00:38:19:08 - 00:38:21:12
Red
Entire basis for what he determined.
00:38:21:12 - 00:38:22:15
Del
That he was trying to measure.
00:38:22:24 - 00:38:22:58
Red
That's why he had to.
00:38:22:58 - 00:38:26:13
Del
Start up parapsychology and, like, make his own thing.
00:38:26:20 - 00:38:30:07
Red
But so I hopefully you're getting the idea. So Ryan to.
00:38:30:07 - 00:38:46:52
Del
Recap, starts his own lab is like the big guy behind remote viewing. Does these studies that whenever anybody else is around, magically don't work, doesn't publish all of the results in good faith is very either deliberately or, not, but is very vague or shitty about indicating how he did his results in research.
00:38:46:57 - 00:38:49:12
Red
You know, debunked by people with.
00:38:49:12 - 00:38:55:22
Del
Better brains, integrity and generally just overall more quality humans and researchers.
00:38:55:37 - 00:39:00:45
Red
But the thing is, the Ryan Institute existed.
00:39:00:45 - 00:39:07:12
Del
I believe the Ryan Institute still, research center still exists, at Duke, or at least it did up until the early 2000.
00:39:07:17 - 00:39:08:43
Red
And ultimately, the research.
00:39:08:58 - 00:39:18:22
Del
Research that was done there wound up being part of a, you know, 20 million 1970s, 8090s dollar project by the CIA and the Stargate project.
00:39:18:27 - 00:39:18:48
Red
That.
00:39:18:48 - 00:39:20:13
Del
You know, that's real, right?
00:39:20:13 - 00:39:23:45
Red
And it's because this guy couched his thing like, if you don't have the.
00:39:23:45 - 00:39:30:37
Del
Science background or like the, no scientific literacy or media literacy to be able to read this and be like, yeah, like.
00:39:30:52 - 00:39:32:03
Red
Because you can use all of the right.
00:39:32:04 - 00:39:40:27
Del
Vocab words, right? You're like instead of saying like, you know, I covered the results. I covered the cards from people and they couldn't see them. You're like, I participated.
00:39:40:31 - 00:39:42:28
Red
Research subjects, participated in a.
00:39:42:28 - 00:39:53:35
Del
Double blind study in which they were asked to recall a discrete piece of data based on what their sense of that thing was after attempting to channel their internal, you know, via psycho genetics.
00:39:53:40 - 00:39:56:58
Red
And, like, if you don't know that, that's like.
00:39:56:58 - 00:40:11:27
Del
Word salad and you're reading this thing or like, you know, essentially what happens now, like, you know, it becomes a fuckin clickbait article. I used to be like, let's be clickbait on something like BuzzFeed or Facebook, but now it's like literally what passes for news in a lot of places, right?
00:40:11:27 - 00:40:14:27
Red
So we see this kind of garbage all the time, right? It's why you get.
00:40:14:27 - 00:40:21:07
Del
Grifters like Doctor Oz, John of God. You get these grifters like Andrew Tate, you get like the Liver King.
00:40:21:07 - 00:40:26:24
Red
Because like, people can say this kind of thing, and if you can couch it in.
00:40:26:29 - 00:40:43:53
Del
Frame it using the correct, like, quote unquote vocab, there's not enough resource nor interest, in trying to audit that. And honestly, there's like people stand to gain a lot from keeping the waters muddy because you can, you know, take the time honored American tradition of being able to sell a grift, especially to do with health, lifestyle or like manifesting or energy.
00:40:43:58 - 00:40:44:54
Red
Like, how is this.
00:40:44:54 - 00:40:50:15
Del
Different than people being like, yeah, like you can manifest and be like, you know.
00:40:50:20 - 00:40:56:49
Red
You know, it's like it's, I'm an empath. I'm manifesting this, I can affect.
00:40:56:54 - 00:41:00:49
Del
The universe physically by my willpower.
00:41:00:54 - 00:41:02:00
Red
In some way, other.
00:41:02:00 - 00:41:12:18
Del
Than by taking action discretely to make that will what I will what I wish into a reality while, you know, not being a harmful fucking nuisance.
00:41:12:23 - 00:41:36:28
Right now. Right. What I will say about just just a little side tangent here. Yeah, manifesting for me is more of, more about a mindset shift. You know, when I was really at my lowest, Holly and I would say to each other, like, everything works out for us. Everything works out for us. Not because we expected the universe to listen, but because I had a hard time believing it.
00:41:36:28 - 00:41:51:36
I had a hard time internalizing that, but not because I thought saying it out loud made it real. Do you know, like for me, it's it's very different. Like. But I know what you're I know what you're referring to especially, you know, the empath stuff and actually like, people who believe that if they say it enough, it will happen.
00:41:51:41 - 00:41:53:18
I think most of that is just weird.
00:41:53:18 - 00:41:54:16
Del
Crystal lunatics.
00:41:54:16 - 00:42:16:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, do what you have to, to change your mindset. Do what you have to, to not be, you know, depressed or whatever it is, but to to have the expectation that the universe will just come to you because you're asking for it too, I think is arrogant. I think it doesn't serve any real scientific purpose.
00:42:16:40 - 00:42:19:21
Red
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I appreciate.
00:42:19:21 - 00:42:24:14
Del
You making that drawing that nuance and honestly, I want to I want to dovetail on that and also add.
00:42:24:14 - 00:42:29:40
Red
Yeah, I, I don't think, you know, anybody. Yeah. Manifesting setting an.
00:42:29:40 - 00:42:30:46
Del
Intention and setting yourself a.
00:42:30:46 - 00:42:34:39
Red
Target. Yeah. You know, wellness and.
00:42:34:44 - 00:42:50:33
Del
Self betterment are personal journeys, highly personal journeys. And I would not presume to comment on the way that they work for people. I think that setting a target and forcing one's will is sometimes not a thing that you do tangibly, but it's like you have to set and rearrange the way that you're, you know, reframing for yourself.
00:42:50:33 - 00:42:57:23
Del
Right? Of course, I think. And you hit upon this. But yeah, I'm talking about like the type of people that are like, I'm manifesting a certain thing, like.
00:42:57:23 - 00:43:00:27
Red
The point, the type of person who are, you know, the starter pack, which.
00:43:00:27 - 00:43:06:50
Del
Is entitled I am so are like trying hard to be like, not religious and into crystals that I've kind of lost track of the irony.
00:43:06:52 - 00:43:07:56
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:43:08:01 - 00:43:10:31
Red
Like like it's that thing, right?
00:43:10:31 - 00:43:13:37
Del
There's like a, there's like a health wellness grift that goes with this.
00:43:13:37 - 00:43:17:29
Red
And I think like, the line is slippery and you're an informed consumer.
00:43:17:29 - 00:43:17:49
Del
Right?
00:43:18:00 - 00:43:19:22
Red
So it's like your ability to.
00:43:19:22 - 00:43:30:50
Del
Draw that nuance is there because you have the media and science literacy to be able to be like, yeah, like I know the difference between that. But I also know that I have to act on my goals. But if you don't write and.
00:43:30:50 - 00:43:33:41
Red
People and nobody will, nobody. And this is the piece.
00:43:33:41 - 00:43:35:49
Del
About couching it in legit sounding things.
00:43:35:49 - 00:43:38:40
Red
It's like think tanks, think tanks and.
00:43:38:40 - 00:43:42:50
Del
Stuff like of the Rhine Research Institute, basically. Right? Serve to make.
00:43:42:50 - 00:43:45:18
Red
This look legit. It's like you're relying on.
00:43:45:18 - 00:43:59:51
Del
This idea, that thing that you're doing is legit. And so nobody's like, I'm manifesting this. And just through sheer force of doing that, for the most part, it's kind of like work. They think, right? They're like, well, I'm doing it according to this principle, which was published in a quote unquote scientific fashion.
00:43:59:56 - 00:44:30:52
Right. And the interesting thing about that is your comparison of it to religion, you know, manifesting is prayer. Crystals are the worship. You know, not that it always goes hand in hand because, like, I don't have any crystals around, but yeah, for me, it was it was one of those things where I quit my job. I had, you know, kind of truly failed at my first attempt, you know, making content because of trusting the wrong people, not trusting myself enough.
00:44:30:57 - 00:44:53:06
Not believing in myself enough. And when I had to return back to my old job, I. I was so dejected. And Holly was like, well, try manifesting. And I'm like, I don't believe. I don't believe in that. But then, you know, they're like, just try it for me. And so we would say that back and forth, and I gotta say, I think at least for my mindset for the reframe, I think it's a very powerful thing if you let it be.
00:44:53:11 - 00:45:10:12
It is not telekinetic. It is not. It is not something that's drawing in the energies of the universe. It is not something. And you know, if if this gets published and you know, this episode of Distraction Dive gets published and there's a study that disproves all of it, I will be the first to say, hey, my bad. You know, like.
00:45:10:12 - 00:45:13:49
Del
Because I owe an apology for taking a very strong stance, if that winds up being the case.
00:45:13:49 - 00:45:15:28
Red
But hey, that's scientific method, baby.
00:45:15:39 - 00:45:24:24
And that's what that's and that's, you know, that's what we're here for. But as of right now, there isn't any real true scientific basis unless it's coming out of stuff like this.
00:45:24:28 - 00:45:27:57
Red
I have something to remark upon with this, but.
00:45:27:57 - 00:45:36:43
Del
I will return to it because, yeah, I think that's a very precious thing that I want to. Yeah, that I appreciate that. That is a that's important. And I think.
00:45:36:54 - 00:45:37:12
Red
Okay.
00:45:37:22 - 00:45:38:20
Del
I have my thought.
00:45:38:20 - 00:45:39:43
Red
Now, basically what you're.
00:45:39:43 - 00:45:44:15
Del
Describing, what Holly had said and the effect of that.
00:45:44:15 - 00:45:47:51
Red
Thing that is still, I would say, kind of.
00:45:47:52 - 00:45:50:04
Del
Inarguably. Right. It's like a tangible thing because.
00:45:50:04 - 00:45:51:03
Red
You sat down.
00:45:51:03 - 00:46:00:06
Del
And said, I'm gonna do this. I'm going to change the way I'm thinking. I'm I am taking the time, the energy, the bandwidth to.
00:46:00:10 - 00:46:04:46
Red
Set my set, my mentality.
00:46:04:51 - 00:46:06:12
Del
In a particular way.
00:46:06:15 - 00:46:12:30
In a direction that is not I would rather hang myself than go to work kind of a thing, you know? Yeah.
00:46:12:41 - 00:46:14:13
Red
So that is like an actual.
00:46:14:13 - 00:46:16:13
Del
Expenditure of your energy and bandwidth.
00:46:16:13 - 00:46:18:01
Red
So I would call that like, like taking.
00:46:18:01 - 00:46:29:45
Del
Will and action, even if it's not like you know, affecting the physical world by the thought you have, you're doing so like it affects all of the actions you're then going to take because you still go and went to work and like, wound up here, right?
00:46:29:58 - 00:46:33:10
Red
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like and that's not psycho kinetic.
00:46:33:10 - 00:46:41:27
Del
That's just kinetic I mean that is psychokinetic. If you're like the psychology part of it is that like I made that reframe and the kinetic part of it is that I did the action.
00:46:41:27 - 00:47:02:20
Well, yeah, I did the work because it was also. And it's not like I just said those words over and over again. I went to therapy, I got medication, I got, you know, I stabilized myself, but, you know, not not to make it about me and to derail this episode too much. I just wanted to give my thoughts on manifestation as a like as a mental tool.
00:47:02:20 - 00:47:06:49
I would say more than a psychic one.
00:47:06:54 - 00:47:13:24
Red
Yeah. Well, and I appreciate that because I think that the important part of this, kind of gets lost in.
00:47:13:24 - 00:47:19:21
Del
The negative space. Also an important part of this, it gets lost on negative space. And I appreciate that you brought this up because.
00:47:19:26 - 00:47:22:46
Red
This otherwise is a way that we can accidentally.
00:47:22:46 - 00:47:25:26
Del
Set ourselves up to dodge accountability. Right? Because it's.
00:47:25:26 - 00:47:26:54
Red
Like I have like strong.
00:47:26:54 - 00:47:39:18
Del
Willpower and intent to do something, but I am instead extremely stressed out about it all the time. And I frees myself from doing it like I just can't because, you know, x, y, and Z reason or whatever, right?
00:47:39:23 - 00:47:42:23
Red
And that's very infuriating to me.
00:47:42:23 - 00:47:57:27
Del
Because I do this even when I'm like trying to, not even before I read this. Right. Like, I have to be. Actually, we were talking about this kind of off of like sort of unrelated to this, but, having prior to recording this episode, I have this sort of, you know, I have to be very careful about not diluting myself with that.
00:47:57:27 - 00:48:15:00
Del
And I think the line between manifesting and, and, you know, things like remote viewing. Right. The idea that if I like, really stressed out about this enough and hold myself, quote unquote, accountable by viewing it basically like thinking about it so many different scenarios, so many different ways, flipping it upside down that I'm like basically saying I manifesting remote viewing this thing.
00:48:15:05 - 00:48:25:34
Del
Then I get tired from doing that, having that real degree of anxiety. But I that's real, right? That is real. But like my effect on the actual problem not.
00:48:25:39 - 00:48:38:15
Yeah, all I did was catastrophize it, worry about it and now I'm tired, you know? Now I need a nap. Because now I'm depressed or angry or whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've. I've been there too, I get that. Yeah, yeah.
00:48:38:20 - 00:48:41:07
Red
No kinesis. That's like really taking the the kinetic out of.
00:48:41:07 - 00:48:42:40
Del
Psychokinetic, right? Yeah.
00:48:42:45 - 00:48:45:38
Yeah. Correct. Left with just psycho.
00:48:45:43 - 00:48:57:39
Red
Yeah. Which, you know, like, I hate you hate to see it and. Yeah, hate to say it. Right. It's one of those things that it almost like. It's like one of these things that is in the category of, I feel like this is so obvious.
00:48:57:39 - 00:49:02:28
Del
I feel a bit dumb saying it's like saying water is wet fork found in kitchen.
00:49:02:33 - 00:49:05:15
Red
However, maybe it's not.
00:49:05:15 - 00:49:27:52
Del
Because I think that it's not so obvious and we suffer in a very real way. Especially those of us that are, living in the United States at this time. We suffer in a very real way because of that thing. Right? It's a sort of shared understanding that is not ever been fully elucidated. And I think it's worth taking in this example and being like, okay.
00:49:28:03 - 00:49:29:38
Red
So am I actually.
00:49:29:52 - 00:49:31:06
Del
You know, for me personally.
00:49:31:06 - 00:49:32:52
Red
Am I affecting am I having.
00:49:32:52 - 00:49:44:19
Del
An attitude about solving my problem? Or like, you know, am I taking it attitude that is going to help me set an intention to solve my problem? Or am I just remote viewing?
00:49:44:24 - 00:50:17:27
Sure, I, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Or is it it like, do you say that like your for me, I guess. Is this how I interpreted what you just said? So please correct me. But, it's like if I'm having an anxious or depression spiral and I'm imagining all these things happening to me, I'm imagining all these things, whether it's positive or negative, and it's exhausting me, is that remote viewing is that, you know, instead of just saying, no, I'm just really anxious, really depressed, really mentally unwell.
00:50:17:33 - 00:50:32:44
Not to say that. And I also want to put a point put out there, like people who have faith in this stuff, like that's not what we're talking about here. Like faith is your own. That's a personal thing. I'm not going to not I'm not going to bash your faith unless your faith is in like, white supremacy or whatever it is.
00:50:32:49 - 00:50:53:51
I, I just think that, if you believe in it and it works for you, that's totally chill. But do not try to tell other people who don't believe it that you can manifest something to happen. You know, don't tell them that you can remote view when it's really just I can just have a really good panic attack.
00:50:53:56 - 00:50:57:36
Red
Yeah. Well, and it's like it's like. Yes, exactly. It's like meaningful engagement.
00:50:57:36 - 00:51:05:08
Del
And introspection, right? Versus versus like. And this is like how this specifically applies to me and why I think it's important on an individual level. Right.
00:51:05:13 - 00:51:06:45
Red
It's like the remote viewing thing.
00:51:06:45 - 00:51:26:08
Del
Really helped me kind of see it. I'm like, okay, so what is this? Actually, it's the idea that it was the definition of it, right? It's the idea that some piece of your, you know, you are attempting to see or glean information about something that is not physically there. And I'm like, you know, am I trying to remote view or am I processing my thing actively or whatever that whatever my thing that's ongoing is?
00:51:26:13 - 00:51:30:09
Red
And, to me it helps. Maybe, set one.
00:51:30:09 - 00:51:50:48
Del
End of the extreme that I want to avoid, for my personal development, but, all together. Right? It's like it's got a micro application, I guess, in that way. And it's got a macro application and a piece of relevance, which is, you know, when you're seeing all of these, like, weird pseudoscience and, like, honestly, like a lot of these, like, alpha grift courses and like.
00:51:50:52 - 00:51:52:21
Red
Like, and alpha courses for.
00:51:52:21 - 00:52:01:07
Del
People who are assigned female at birth where they're like, you want to get people to give you the princess treatment and manifest this, like, sort of thing so that you can get, you know, again, like.
00:52:01:12 - 00:52:02:58
Red
There's like a line between appealing.
00:52:03:00 - 00:52:05:22
Del
To people's sense of wanting to better.
00:52:05:22 - 00:52:09:47
Red
Themselves using things like this, that is.
00:52:09:52 - 00:52:20:58
Del
Kind of like an old tradition, because this idea of remote viewing and trying to get people into it and couching it in like real sounding language goes, obviously, as we can see as far back as the late 1800s.
00:52:21:03 - 00:52:23:00
Red
And it's not just about being a.
00:52:23:00 - 00:52:28:16
Del
Fool, very, very smart and educated, etc. people, right, have taken a good look at this.
00:52:28:21 - 00:52:29:31
Red
So I think.
00:52:29:31 - 00:52:52:35
Del
That if we don't reckon with this in some way and ask ourselves this question, for those of us who have this sort of disposition right. With regard to am I just being am I just remote viewing my problem or am I actually processing it? Then if we don't, then we don't know what we're dealing with and like everything else, you know, giving a name to that thing is the first step in being able to say, this is what the problem is, or this is what you know what?
00:52:52:35 - 00:53:12:02
Because like this version of remote viewing is saying that you can remote view something out of nothing on command. Right? Like please remote view what card I'm holding instead of like, like what we're talking about is therapy. Go to therapy. You know, men go to therapy. Yeah. Men for sure.
00:53:12:07 - 00:53:13:22
Red
Specifically. Probably.
00:53:13:22 - 00:53:14:06
Del
You all.
00:53:14:11 - 00:53:37:51
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Us. I see the demographics. Not it. Not enough. Not enough, women up in here. But, yeah, I, I think that, you know, processing your trauma processing the moment that you're in, if you have to call it something else to empower yourself, go for it. But this is a this is a pseudoscience that's being bad.
00:53:37:51 - 00:53:50:27
Science is bad and it can harm people. Yeah. And I fear that this is one of those. It's not like phrenology or IQ testing where it's directly harmful and in, in our in like very much in our sight. Geist very.
00:53:50:27 - 00:53:51:03
Red
Much like.
00:53:51:03 - 00:53:54:19
Del
In that same like concrete way where somebody is like do remote.
00:53:54:19 - 00:53:55:55
Red
Viewing and pay me a hundred bucks. Yeah.
00:53:55:55 - 00:54:12:50
Right. Exactly. It's not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Quite that. And I think because it's so abstract, like you said earlier in the episode, it's abstract bad science. And that's why it's, it can be eternal because you can't you can't disprove an abstract like that's on purpose.
00:54:12:50 - 00:54:13:31
Del
Much harder.
00:54:13:35 - 00:54:36:43
Yeah. It's much harder to do so. Yeah. Anyway, like back on track, you know, this dude just kind of wanted it so badly instead of just being a legitimate scientist and saying, hey, guys, like, I didn't find any evidence, you know, like, I can't help but think that there was something going on behind the scenes with him that really made him want to do this, you know?
00:54:36:43 - 00:54:38:33
Red
Yeah. And I'm not.
00:54:38:34 - 00:54:43:57
Del
Necessarily all the way privy or, you know, at least I didn't get into what his personal motivations were as well.
00:54:43:57 - 00:54:48:20
But he's not he's not the topic of the episode. But like, I just, you know.
00:54:48:25 - 00:54:49:30
Red
I kind of wish I did.
00:54:49:30 - 00:54:51:23
Del
Like in the sense that, like, you know, I agree.
00:54:51:23 - 00:54:52:46
Red
It's like it's like that gray.
00:54:52:46 - 00:54:56:22
Del
Area, right? Of like, did you do this out of negligence and in good faith?
00:54:56:22 - 00:55:02:20
Red
Like, how like, is this out of just pure stupidity? Is this out of a mix of malice and stupidity.
00:55:02:20 - 00:55:12:56
Del
Where like or is it like good faith? Like, I thought I had this and I thought I was only cutting a couple of corners, but I was too, like not able to be insightful and recognize that I was actually cutting a lot of corners.
00:55:13:01 - 00:55:13:21
Red
Right.
00:55:13:21 - 00:55:20:37
Del
And I think that there's like probably in his the personal reckoning of this guy, it's probably, you know, we're making an assessment of him as a person.
00:55:20:42 - 00:55:22:46
Red
It's like, you know, the most relevant point.
00:55:22:46 - 00:55:26:48
Del
But realistically, your point about an abstract, I really appreciate it because.
00:55:26:52 - 00:55:28:51
Red
It well, you know, it's like why.
00:55:28:51 - 00:55:33:48
Del
It's difficult to disprove an abstract. And it's like, so what are the concretes and even the concretes here are I mean, you.
00:55:33:48 - 00:55:34:03
Red
Know.
00:55:34:17 - 00:55:43:45
Del
20,000,019 $90 went into, Project Stargate on the basis of this guy's work. Like, that's real. That's stuff that like.
00:55:43:50 - 00:55:44:25
Red
You know, that's.
00:55:44:25 - 00:55:55:55
Del
Tax dollars, right? That stuff that we don't as a, you know, people who live in a society and have elected representatives, etc., we didn't get a say in that thing. And like, who knows if we would have been for that.
00:55:56:00 - 00:55:56:31
Red
And people would.
00:55:56:31 - 00:56:14:54
Del
Be like, well, the democratic process is, is that you vote for electoral representatives who say that, then you know, they vote on your behalf. And functionally you basically did vote for this. But we all know that those people are narcs. And like, that's not how this works, because the entire thing is extremely bloated away from the point of we make a vote and that thing results in policy that we tangibly want, obviously.
00:56:15:01 - 00:56:18:51
Del
But, separately from that, even the other tangible piece and.
00:56:18:55 - 00:56:20:16
Red
There's going to be a future pseudo Science.
00:56:20:16 - 00:56:23:45
Del
Sunday episode about Project Stargate itself. Just because.
00:56:24:00 - 00:56:24:21
Red
Or like.
00:56:24:21 - 00:56:25:49
Del
It'll might even just be like a.
00:56:25:53 - 00:56:29:06
Red
Tidbit, but, it is worth getting into.
00:56:29:07 - 00:56:31:42
Del
Because it, along with things like project MKUltra.
00:56:31:42 - 00:56:32:45
Red
Are objectively.
00:56:32:45 - 00:56:43:40
Del
Crazy. Like, everybody looks at this, they're like, yeah, you can't mind control people using LSD to get them to do what you want. And you can't like remote view to detect, like, you know, in the future, what are your enemies going to do on the battlefield?
00:56:43:40 - 00:56:45:01
Right. But why do.
00:56:45:01 - 00:56:45:37
Red
We know that?
00:56:45:37 - 00:56:52:09
Del
Like, I guess because we I guess we had to spend $50 million or whatever on this today. Dollars on it to be able to determine that.
00:56:52:13 - 00:56:55:31
Red
I don't know, van. Like I guess like it's crazy to me that we spent.
00:56:55:31 - 00:56:57:00
Del
50 million real dollars on that.
00:56:57:00 - 00:56:57:58
Red
When we could have.
00:56:58:03 - 00:56:58:59
Del
I don't know.
00:56:59:04 - 00:57:01:03
On something else with a.
00:57:01:08 - 00:57:02:11
Red
The other stuff comes to.
00:57:02:11 - 00:57:05:42
Del
Mind, like infrastructure or health care, whatever. Right. And I.
00:57:05:42 - 00:57:07:08
Red
Just just like I'm talking about.
00:57:07:08 - 00:57:10:35
Del
Politics here because this is the you know, this is like defense funding.
00:57:10:40 - 00:57:11:15
Yeah. Yeah.
00:57:11:25 - 00:57:18:21
Del
So like we could put it somewhere else. But like if you want to zoom out even more, it's like we spent $20 million on this. Like we could have given it to the NIH or whatever, right.
00:57:18:21 - 00:57:21:01
Red
Like there's just a I just how would I spend.
00:57:21:01 - 00:57:29:51
Del
That kind of capital money, any money or otherwise. Right. Well, sure is shit not on needing to prove that you're going to be able to do ESP. Really hard.
00:57:29:56 - 00:57:35:22
Right. And and also like they're almost looking for pattern recognition like, hey, can you.
00:57:35:22 - 00:57:36:09
Del
Oh, completely.
00:57:36:16 - 00:57:56:16
Like. Yeah. Just you know, hey, can if you're looking at a battlefield, what do you think is going to happen, bro? We'll test that theory if you want to. Like is that I don't know if I would as a soldier, want to put my money on a guy telling me that he saw it in his head, you know, okay, I, I, I, I, you know, what else I could see in my head?
00:57:56:16 - 00:58:10:26
A fucking bullet. If you're wrong. So, like, I don't want to, you know, put my, my, my true faith in that kind of science. I wouldn't want to, you know, throw my whole heart at that and really believe it and then just die for it. You know what I mean?
00:58:10:37 - 00:58:12:01
Del
Well, yeah, exactly. It's like.
00:58:12:01 - 00:58:14:00
Red
Do you feel like, you know, at the end of.
00:58:14:00 - 00:58:16:46
Del
The day, it's like I'm asking somebody to say.
00:58:16:51 - 00:58:27:09
Red
Hey, you know, I'm like, cool with the concept that because somebody said, I saw this or like basically like.
00:58:27:09 - 00:58:33:54
Del
It's like a dumber version of Minority Report mixed with a dumber version of ChatGPT or like, the LMS slash AI replacing thing. Right?
00:58:34:06 - 00:58:36:03
Red
Like, it's like because ChatGPT.
00:58:36:10 - 00:58:41:06
Del
Predicted that people would like this or whatever, slash like some dude was like.
00:58:41:06 - 00:58:47:49
Red
I feel it in my bones. Then I because of those two things, suddenly.
00:58:47:54 - 00:58:56:22
Del
I'm deploying somebodies very real body and life and mind and soul to possibly get fucked. For what? On the basis of what?
00:58:56:31 - 00:58:58:48
Red
And already like, ask any people if you.
00:58:58:48 - 00:59:13:30
Del
Know any actual people who are boots on the ground military in any capacity, ask them what their relationship is to the people that supply their data. I promise you, that's like they're they're going to tell you a story about how those people are disconnected from it. I don't know what the fuck is going on. And like, it's like a known thing.
00:59:13:30 - 00:59:20:01
Del
We all feel that way about people that are disconnected from real situations. This is one of those things in the biggest way.
00:59:20:06 - 00:59:23:13
Red
And all of that, I think was very elegantly captured by that.
00:59:23:13 - 00:59:28:41
Del
Tiny scene in Ghostbusters. Well, where Bill Murray was like, I think a parody version of JB Ryan.
00:59:28:46 - 00:59:31:12
Red
Yeah. Hey, you know.
00:59:31:17 - 00:59:39:06
I can't see that now. I literally that is because I if I recall correctly, his character really wanted it to work to.
00:59:39:10 - 00:59:46:43
Red
He kind of did, but he didn't like super believe it and he was just using it to get into the like. He this entire movie's plot happens because he's using trying to set the doubt.
00:59:46:48 - 00:59:50:49
Del
To make the character played by Sigourney Weaver feel special so that he can get something from her.
00:59:50:49 - 00:59:53:58
I do recall I recall that very well. Very much so.
00:59:54:03 - 00:59:55:04
Del
So he really wanted it to.
00:59:55:04 - 00:59:59:52
Red
Work, but like, it's like he had no allegiance to anything. Like ultimately it's it's something banal.
00:59:59:52 - 01:00:04:41
Del
And ordinary like that that I think goes to like, inspires it here too.
01:00:04:46 - 01:00:24:07
You know, how I feel about I it's not, not positive, but to give credit to AI over remote viewing, I would at least if you gave it the same information, the information that it needed to analyze, at least it's analyzing real info, right? Whereas a remote viewer, they're like, what card am I holding now? Do that. Do that in wartime.
01:00:24:07 - 01:00:25:45
And it's like, no, do that.
01:00:25:48 - 01:00:27:54
Red
More time.
01:00:27:59 - 01:00:45:15
You know, because it's just it would be so dangerous if, if that, that had gone unabated. Do you know what I mean? If there wasn't a CIA study that probably debunked it, did it debunk it? Did that CIA did the did Project Stargate debunk that or did it actually continue to push it?
01:00:45:19 - 01:00:57:39
Red
You know what? I'm not sure. I don't recall exactly if Project Stargate wound up making a conclusion about debunking or continuing to push. I think that it kind of like, more. They just were like, we're not.
01:00:57:39 - 01:01:00:09
Del
Getting results for cutting the funding to this thing.
01:01:00:09 - 01:01:03:14
Red
Like, it wasn't even like, oh, we're debunking it. We're just like, we're.
01:01:03:14 - 01:01:05:34
Del
Not seeing results. We're no longer spending money on this startup.
01:01:05:34 - 01:01:11:30
So they didn't say it, but not spending money on it is implying that they don't believe in it. You know.
01:01:11:34 - 01:01:16:42
Red
You could say that. I think that the truth is probably just that some paper pusher saw the project.
01:01:16:42 - 01:01:23:49
Del
Didn't even really super review it and was like not getting results that we thought, I'm saving money this year. Reaganomics, baby.
01:01:23:54 - 01:01:25:25
Red
No.
01:01:25:30 - 01:01:34:07
God damn it. I mean, even if that's the case, you know, at least it didn't continue to get funded. I'm kind of grateful for that. At the very least.
01:01:34:12 - 01:01:38:45
Red
Yeah, I agree, you know, in the end, that too is a piece of the giant.
01:01:38:45 - 01:01:49:07
Del
Apparatus that makes scientific research like clunk forward slowly in the way that we recognize it in the universe, in universities, etc.. Right. But,
01:01:49:12 - 01:01:56:09
Red
You know, I just think it's worth asking, where is this stuff coming from? And sometimes it's just like, if you look a little.
01:01:56:09 - 01:01:59:13
Del
Bit, it turns out that it's just like a really dumb thing and you can be.
01:01:59:13 - 01:02:00:04
Red
Like.
01:02:00:09 - 01:02:03:21
Del
Well, geez, I don't trust anything coming out of here.
01:02:03:21 - 01:02:09:16
Red
This guy thought that this guy tried to call it a bunch of people into thinking that, like, people could read minds.
01:02:09:21 - 01:02:29:54
Yeah. And the fact that we are still dealing with similar I can't think of them off the top of the dome, but I know that people are still trying that same shit that today, you know, it's it's a, it's a, it's a thing that just happened. Biohackers. What are the med beds? And, you know, anything, you just name it, right?
01:02:29:54 - 01:02:38:19
They're still trying to push these things, and it's lazier now somehow, you know. Oh, yeah, and that's such a crazy thing to me.
01:02:38:24 - 01:02:41:49
Red
Any person who sells crystals or artifacts or something like that, that they.
01:02:41:49 - 01:02:51:42
Del
Think like they're going to get somebody to be able to manifest and esp themselves better without like some sort of actual accountability. And people who people are very cunning about this. Right?
01:02:51:46 - 01:02:53:15
Red
That is any person that, you.
01:02:53:15 - 01:03:00:56
Del
Know, that's been caught up in that in any capacity, whether they feel or think they've been caught up in it. Right. A you know, if you know that about a person.
01:03:01:01 - 01:03:02:06
Red
Then they.
01:03:02:06 - 01:03:04:43
Del
Are they're a victim of this thing in a very real way, even though.
01:03:04:48 - 01:03:19:12
Well, and I, I say this all the time, but, you know, patriarchy is real. Power is, at least in America, white men always being able to obfuscate accountability. And this is.
01:03:19:12 - 01:03:20:10
Del
Another version of that.
01:03:20:11 - 01:03:43:45
Yeah. And then, you know, they can sell those techniques back to you, but in a dumber package. And then, yeah, you know, in some cases harm people who actually need real help. And not to say, again, like I said earlier, if crystals and meditation and manifestation and all that stuff helps you get through the day, we got to do what we got to do in the year of our Lord 2025, you know?
01:03:43:49 - 01:03:49:19
But I'm just I just, you know, at least question the things that you choose to believe in is all I ask.
01:03:49:31 - 01:03:52:56
Red
Okay. Obfuscating accountability is bars by the way.
01:03:52:58 - 01:04:04:10
Oh thanks man. I think I think about it all the time because you watch this is not this is way off topic but this is distraction dive. You just see white men failing upwards all the time and occasionally white women.
01:04:04:10 - 01:04:06:58
Red
Yeah, yeah.
01:04:07:03 - 01:04:07:57
Del
God, I could.
01:04:07:57 - 01:04:10:36
Red
Yeah.
01:04:10:40 - 01:04:13:05
Is that all you got for us, though? Do.
01:04:13:10 - 01:04:26:51
Red
You know what? By God, it is. And, yeah, that's the then that there it is about remote viewing. It's a little bit of, it's a little bit of an odd thing. It's going to lead us to some other stuff, but, I just. Yeah, I just had to. I kind of had to yap.
01:04:26:51 - 01:04:27:12
Del
About it, too.
01:04:27:12 - 01:04:51:31
You know, I, I really appreciate this one. And I'm, it's it's nice to be back. I also want to say, you know, this is so good to be back. These episodes get released out of order. But, this is our first episode that we're recording for season two, and I just. Yeah, it's so nice to be back, and it's so nice to be able to talk about things that just really piss us off.
01:04:51:36 - 01:04:54:48
Red
Yep. That. Yeah. And, you know, season.
01:04:54:48 - 01:05:10:43
Del
Two are on camera, but only for each other, which I think is a fun difference for us. And, yeah, man, it is good to be back and good to be angry. I guess. Well, that's healthy. I feel good about that. We should be mad.
01:05:10:48 - 01:05:12:22
All the time.
01:05:12:27 - 01:05:15:45
Red
Silent J
01:05:15:50 - 01:05:18:45
Well, listen. Thank you for being distracted with us.
01:05:18:45 - 01:05:21:36
Red
Thank you for taking the dive tonight.