Suits and Boots | The Sustainable Business Podcast

CMIF: Artisanal Mining in the New Minerals Era

• Season 1 • Episode 17

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The rush for critical minerals increasingly requires sourcing from artisanal and small-scale mining, raising concerns about potential human rights abuses, land degradation and conflict, yet at the same time offering potential opportunities for economic growth, employment and vital contributions to supply chains if properly regulated. 

In this podcast, our speakers explore what the new minerals era means for ASM, taking a pragmatic look at formalisation of the sector, drawing on examples from the DRC. They examine how stakeholders at all stages of the critical mineral supply chain can and should navigate the intersection of high mineral dependency, geopolitical uncertainty and human and environmental risks. Finally, they take a look at how large-scale mining and ASM can potentially come together - exploring parallels from other industries.   

Speakers on this episode:

  • Daniella Savic | Head of International ESG Compliance - Eurasian Resources Group
  • Ian Welsh | Publishing Director - Innovation Forum
  • Assheton Stewart Carter | Executive Chair & Founder - TDi Sustainability

This episode is part of the TDi Sustainability special series of podcasts produced in advance of the Critical Minerals Innovation Forum (CMIF) event that will take place in London between 5 & 6 November 2025. Find out more about the event here.

Assheton Carter:

Hello and welcome to this special edition of Suits and Boots, the TDI podcast series in conjunction with the Innovation Forum. In this series, speakers at this year's inaugural Critical Minerals Innovation Forum event discuss some of the key themes that will be covered at the conference. I'm Ashon Stewart Carter, Executive Chair at TDI Sustainability. Artisan and small-scale mining is a topic which is actually very close to my heart. I went down my first artisanal mine or digging or shaft or pit back in 1995 in Venezuela, and I've been visiting and studying artisanal mines ever since. In fact, I founded an organization, the Impact Facility for Sustainable Mining Communities, which was set up specifically to invest and formalize small mines in Africa. One of the reasons for doing this is because artisanal and small-scale mining is very often overlooked as a sector, as a formal category, and especially in the mainstream critical minerals discourse. Yet it's become central in both mineral supply and corporate sustainability narratives. Artisanal mining sources of minerals do fill supply gaps materials in some supply chains, gold, mica, cobalt, to a degree, and is emergent in others, such as lithium. They are very often buffer stocks too. When markets are tight, artisanal mines can produce rapidly. From a corporate risk point of view, however, this has raised concerns about potential human rights abuses, money laundering, and so on, land degradation and conflict. Yet at the same time, there's this extraordinary opportunity to serve many of the underserved communities in Africa, where it's the second largest employer after agriculture, and in many other regions in the world, in Southeast Asia and South America as well, where employment is vital for the well-being of these communities. So in this podcast, we'll be exploring what, in this new minerals area, what does this mean for artisanal mining? We're taking a pragmatic look at formalization of a sector and drawing on case studies from our speakers' practical experience, both within mining, but also more broadly examining how experience of formalization in informal sectors apply in other supply chains to explore if lessons can be learned. So I'm delighted to be joined today for discussion by Daniela Savik and Ian Walsh. Daniela is the head of international ESG compliance at the Eurasian Resources Group, ERG, which is a global metals and mining company supplying products for over 40 countries. In this role, she's responsible for shaping and managing ERG International's Overarching Sustainability Programme, overseeing the implementation of initiatives and strategies, ensuring a regulatory compliance, supporting regional ESG reporting and actively engaging with the multi-staker community to foster partnerships and share practices. So quite a full day of work. And she's also had diverse roles across the private, public, and tertiary sectors, including at UNICEF, at the Global Backtrade Alliance, which we talked about a little bit. And in 2024, Dana received the most influential ESG Women in Metals and Mining Award in recognition of her hard and good work, passion and commitment to making a lasting positive impact in the industry. Ian is publishing director at Innovation Forum, which is an events and insight business focusing on sustainable business issues. He has two decades of experience in communications and business specializing in corporate ethics, sustainability, and environmental issues. Ian hosts the Weekly Innovation Forum podcast and shares the company's conference series. Innovation Forum hosts conferences worldwide every year on business critical issues, including critical mineral supply, commodity value chains, and sourcing landscapes, sustainable apparel and textiles, and responsible sourcing and procurement. The company publishes regular content and podcasts and has a weekly newsletter with 30,000 subscribers, of which I am one. In addition, Innovation Forum works with companies to engage and communicate with their stakeholders through webinars, workshops, and in-person seminars. Welcome, Daniela and Ian, and thank you for joining us today. Hey Ashton, thank you. Looking forward to the conversation. Great. Well, um, I thought I'd start with a a bit of a basic question, um, just to get us all and the audience on the same page. I I can't help but think that the term ASM has lost some of its definition and precision. It's become a little bit vague. People have heard about it, they've heard about it before, and they have a sort of a sense of what it might mean, but it's almost like ESG or NGO or CSR or LTO. It's kind of lost some of its form, it's lost some of its shape. So, from your perspective, Daniela, what is the best way to think about ASM as a category?

Daniella Savic:

Yeah, um, and I think that's a great way to set the scene, Ashton, um, because I mean it is indeed a sustainability paradox, and I'll explain later what do I mean by that. But um, as you rightly saw, I think um we should take a step back and ensure that we have the all the same understanding of ASM. So um, according to the World Bank database, I mean, uh, we know that there are 15 million people based in in India that worked um as ASM miners in previous years, followed by China with 9 million people. And the DRC comes on the fourth position after Indonesia with an estimation of 2 million people involved in ASM. And uh this includes all commodities, with gold being the most prevalent. Then I also believe we need to differentiate between what we call legitimate ASM and illegal mining activities. So at ERG, for example, we operate in areas where ASM activity is often the major source of income for many people. Therefore, even though we do not have ASM within our own supply chain, we do acknowledge the important role that ASM plays in supporting much-needed livelihood. And in this context, we support a range of external initiatives to help improve the lives of local communities near our operations. Um, worthwhile noting that ASM often uses basic tools and methods with minimal mechanization and is performed by local individuals and communities. And in parallel, uh, there is what we call the illegal mining activities. And these um often corrupted and criminal organizations could invade LSM concessions or industrial mining concessions with industrial machines or armed groups to block the access and use violence, smuggling, and other illicit practices, um, including universal human rights violations. So now to answer your questions or to come back to what I mean by the sustainability paradox, is that with the global push for the energy transition, uh, which has intensified competition for minor resources, which are in one side essential for um producing low emission technologies, um, this push has renewed a demand, which has reshaped the world uh extractive sector, and in some cases exacerbated uh the governance challenges and reinforcing the illegal evict uh illegal activities which too often use children in vulnerable communities as human children.

Assheton Carter:

Absolutely. So the the idea of or the definition for autism or mining is really kind of on a scale on how mechanized it is when autism mining being released mechanized. Um you mentioned one thing there is that autism mining is carried out by local communities, but in this new minerals age when there's this rush for minerals, as you pointed out, won't that encourage um migration? So is there a lot of movement in the autism and small-scale mining sector, if we can call it a sector? Or is the dampening of international commodity prices preventing that um influx? Daniela?

Daniella Savic:

Yeah, well, no, definitely uh the in we can see the influx on the ground, um, and that's another added issue that we need to uh we need to we need to mitigate or manage uh in collaboration with authorities and different development partners, uh, because as you may know, also in certain regions there is also the ethnic um or tribes issue that also comes to place, and basically this would usually also fuel conflict among communities. So yeah, I think uh it's a very valid point that you're bringing here.

Assheton Carter:

Great. So that's sort of a little bit about the local context. But Ian, you're you're a um you have a podcast every week, and um your podcast, you speak to many decision makers, and uh geopolitics and critical minerals, I'm sure, comes up in your podcast quite often. Um, and we know that geopolitics are certainly less stable than they were a couple of years ago. How does this play into ASM? What are you hearing about geopolitics and how it has um affect ASM and governments and international corporations' appetite for um engaging or taking seriously the ASM sector?

Ian Welsh:

Thank you. I mean, I think it's inevitable that companies will need to engage more closely with all potential sources of the minerals that are going to be required for the clean energy transition. Perhaps they've ignored the ASM sector in the past, but I think going forwards it's inevitable that every potential source of supply is going to be uh important. As Daniela outlined, there's a real scramble to meet demand right now. A report from the International Institute for Sustainable Development last December, 24 concluded that artisanal mining sector has high potential for a greater role in sourcing for many of the key minerals that we're talking about, for renewable energy and electric vehicles, cobalt, lithium, copper, zinc, etc. etc. So there's a real, I think, move towards accepting that the ESM sector is going to be very much part of the supply, overall supply shed for these minerals. Global politics, as you said, uh clearly a time of uncertainty. And that does mean that, well, can have two two two implications, I think. Firstly, inevitably, in a time of uncertainty, uh business tends to pull its horns in, less investment, just uh CFOs hang on to the money uh because they you know they don't like investing in uncertain times. But and transversely, I think also there is a requirement for, as I said, to really diversify supply. In uncertain times, if there are uncertainties over where supplies of critical minerals will come from, I think companies would be would be very wise to ensure that they have as diverse a supply chain as possible. Now, we're obviously we're seeing impacts from uh the Trump tariffs, inevitably impacting all uh global trade flows. There do appear to be some, of course, uh deals to be done uh to bypass tariffs or exempt some minerals and metals. I think uh perhaps there's a bit of an unforeseen, an unintended consequence rather, of uh what Trump's been doing is that suddenly uh he was pointed out to the US administration that um these tariffs might mean that uh all the critical uh uh minerals and metals that are required uh in the modern global economy uh and in the US economy may well not be as easy to get into the country if they are subject to tariffs. So we'll need to see how that all plays out. Something else that's interesting, I think, is the sort of sense of a rolling back of some global commitments to net zero and decarbonising of the world's energy supply. If there is a slowing of energy transition, then that may impact, of course, demand for critical minerals and the timing of when that demand peaks and troughs. So we'll see, interesting to see how that goes forward. I'm also going to be looking out for what's gonna come out of the COP 30 meetings in Brazil, just coming up very shortly. Energy transition is one of the key pillars of the action agenda for the meetings, as ever. There's a good game being topped up ahead of the conference, but uh let's see what comes out of it. Um interesting to see that.

Assheton Carter:

When it comes to ASM, there isn't a specific ASM regulation, um, but that's implied through the various risks that people link to ASM. So I guess, Daniel, I mean, in your title, you're also head of compliance. What are the drivers that are driving attention on ASM in supply chains? And in particular, to actually formalize it? I mean, you said that some of this is legitimate, some of this is illegal. Why didn't we just say that it's all illegal and there isn't such a thing as legitimate? What's the driver and how can you actually distinguish what is legitimate from what is illegal or informal?

Daniella Savic:

Yeah, uh, and and maybe here I will bring my past experience into the table uh while I was living uh in different countries with UNICEF. But I mean, bringing ASM into the formal mining value chain is a complex matter, yes. Um, but formalizing ASM could offer multiple benefits for various stakeholders, sorry. Uh but first of all, it would allow hundreds of thousands of people to get out from poverty. And so by taking this as a basis, I think we can then better understand the indirect advantages that it could bring, such as for governments, uh, this would mean integrating ASM into the tax systems, for the financial sector, that would mean more customers for bank loans and investments. And broadly, um, I think it should also drive some fairer prices for critical minerals. But with that being said, um, I think we should also take into consideration the trade risks that unformalized ASM poses, since eventually all minerals get mixed together at the midstream level of supply chains. So, for example, I can give you a concrete example. Um, a recent US Department of Labor report highlighted uh significant issues of forced labor in the DRC cobalt mines, um, which could have put the DRC cobalt at risk of import restrictions or even vettors from the US government. Um and this would naturally potentially affect the global clean energy supply chain.

Assheton Carter:

So we made the case, I think, or um Ian and Danielle have both made the case that formalizing informal sectors, in this case artisanal mining, can be a positive thing. But there are risks associated with these small-scale mines, and by that I mean there are um negative social and environmental aspects that are linked to artisanal mining that can then translate into risks for companies who source these minerals. Daniel, can you give us a little give us a little bit of background or uh a bird's eye view of what some of those risks are, and then perhaps talk about what are the models for formalization?

Daniella Savic:

Um so socially and I would say globally, not only in Africa, uh, the most pressing risk is definitely addressing the human rights violation we see on the ground. Um, and those are often being committed by those armed groups that I have previously mentioned and who are supporting illegal mining activities. I mean, if if you go and see what is happening, sometimes you will really see uh children and women where they're being not only being exploited but raped while men are being tortured uh for not following orders, etc. So I mean that's definitely the most pressing and urgent risk to be mitigated. Um then in pure ASM context, um, there is naturally the unsafe working conditions leading to hundreds of deaths yearly, and I would say also the ability to uphold the legal protection for these workers um operating in an in an informal sector. Um but as you've mentioned it, uh Ashton, uh there is another set of risks that we tend to underestimate, and those are the environmental adverse impacts that ASM is causing, and which have led to environmental disasters and in some cases even irreversible environmental damages, such as water pollution and soil erosion. Um I think here the example of mercury um being used in the gold ASM processing is a very good reminder. But then maybe to also have a positive note uh in terms of the number of initiatives uh who have uh supported ASM or the livelihood. Um, I think uh research has shown that child labor in ASM context um decreased, which I think is an important outcome and which reflects the industry and multi stakeholder mobilization about this issue.

Assheton Carter:

Tremendous. Um as I mentioned in my opening remarks, I founded an organization called the Impact Facility. And there we have a couple of models we are working with ASM, on which we're working with ASM, one in the Congo called the Fair Cobalt Alliance, and there we are focusing on uh training uh workers on the ASM sites to essentially behave more um safely and ensure that there are infrastructure that prevents some of the accidents that happen. While in in East Africa, over in Tanzania and Kenya, we actually have an investment-led model where we're investing into the ASM as legitimate organizations. And I'm just wondering, Ian, from your point of view, have you seen in the cocoa industry with companies like Mondalise who are working with um smallholders, what models actually work? Is it the investment-led model, um, which I know they actually do use out there, or is it more the capacity development and training model that can help us to formalise and make these informal sectors, including artisanal mining, safer?

Ian Welsh:

Um, I think it's a combination, actually. I think that there's something that's um important is to find a way of uh legalizing it in whatever sense of the word, uh, the sector in context. So I I referred to land tenure earlier. So find a way to ensure that the um smaller farmer or the artisanal miner, you know, has security of tenure over there um over where they are, where they're working. They know that it's theirs to work with, and they know that they have some security there. I referred to a double ISD report earlier from December last year, and then they see they conclude that some legalizing the ASM sector is is key to moving it forward. And they actually suggest some some solutions, the licensing particular areas um and then guaranteeing uh to those that are prepared and willing to work in that in those areas, guaranteeing their their job security, and then in turn being able to work with big business that are looking to source from these areas, giving them a sense of security that the supply is going to come from them. And I think collaboration is very important, collaboration with peer companies and collaboration within sectors is vital. But I think it all comes down to ensuring that the artisanal miner or the smallholder farmer ensuring that they have a viable income. So many of the problems that you have with these sourcing areas uh does come down to the farm or mining uh minor income. In a small older farmer context, why do you have a child labour problem? Well, it's because the smallholder farmer has no choice but to um seek support from their children to help them get the harvesting, to help them on the farm. You do not find many smallholder farmers who say, I wish my children to be working in the farm rather than go to school. They'd much rather they were going to school. So I think what you're seeing is a lot, and the Mondeleese uh in in uh West Africa is an example. The companies are working together with smallholder communities to enable the farmers to have sufficient income and to have the infrastructure around them that enables their children to go to school rather than being rather than staying home and working on the farm. Another commodity example that uh I think is worth considering is the uh palm oil sector in Southeast Asia. Um, Museum Mass, a very big palm oil business. Uh, it works with its small older suppliers to enhance livelihoods, to increase yields and prevent further deforestation. And it collaborates with other peer companies, for example, Bungi in the Indonesian province of West Kalimantan. I mean, in fact, the palm oil sector in Southeast Asia has done an incredible job of sorting out its deforestation challenges. 10, 15 years ago, uh the sector was subject to horrendous um, and rightly so, pressure from uh many stakeholders to really get to grips with this deforestation risk, and it has done so. If you look at the deforestation now in many parts of Southeast Asia where palm oil is sourced, in Indonesia and Malaysia, deforestation rates are now very low. You might say that's because they've cut all the trees down already in some places, and there's an argument for that, but certainly now that it is no longer uh further uh uh deforestation. A lot of the deforestation was driven by smaller farmers who were simply rather than enhancing and working with the land that they had cleared and were cultivating for palm oil, they simply just cut down more trees, more forest to plant more palm oil, um, uh palm oil or palm trees. Now you find that the sector is working with those farmers to ensure that they are getting the best possible yield from the land that they have currently cleared. That's a you know, a really good way to uh ensure that deforestation rates come down. But to get back to your question, what are the models that work? I think it does come down to uh finding a way to accept that when you're working with smallholders or small scale mining, you can't treat it the same as you could a large-scale plantation or a large um mining uh facility. Necessarily it's going to be treated differently, and you have to you have to accept that and then take an approach that is appropriate for the um growers or the miners that you are working with.

Assheton Carter:

Right. And um there's actually uh a nice connection between palm oil and artisanal gold mining. It's been found actually that in West Africa, a place like Ghana, the one thing that can actually compete with artisanal mining is palm oil, um, because you can generate revenue from a palm oil very, very quickly and reliably. And so when you're reforesting distressed land, which has been disturbed by artisanal mining, palm oil is very often the way is the way to go. So maybe there's a win-wind there. So look, great, thanks. That's been um really interesting. We've talked about some of what the negative impacts which turn into risks are with artisanal mining. We've looked at some of the modalities that that can work. I want to turn now to whose job is this? Whose responsibility is it um to address some of these risks? Um, is it really within the mandate of um companies like ERG, or is it the government, or is it a combination in talk a little bit about um collaboration? What's the approach here? Where's where's government and um who should be doing what?

Daniella Savic:

Um and here I'm very much aligned with uh what uh Ayan has said. Um I think one of the biggest challenges that we are having here is the legal statue of ASM, uh which is determined by the laws of each country. So basically, there is no universal global recognition or prohibition of ASM. Um, so for example, in the DRC, ASM is recognized in the mining code, but the restrictions um lead to most ASM operating informally. So a good example of those restrictions is the creation of a limited number of uh legally designated artisanal mining zones. Um and those are not uh too often not used by min by miners due to uncertainty over the available resources. So no geological surveys have been conducted on those zones, and um very few are close to large concessions with proven resources. So I would say here um again, a multi-stakeholder approach um would help in addressing those challenges. Then I would also say that another challenge is to bring the existing solutions at a sufficient scale that is commensurate with the magnitude of the issue. Um there are plenty of very good initiatives worldwide. However, if there is no political will to strengthen institutional capacities, if potential buyers are too afraid to take risks because of the consumer's pressure, and if ASM miners themselves do not understand that formalization requires a long-term commitment in order to offer tangible benefits, such as what Ayn said, uh, sustainable income and improved living standards, um, I really fear that our efforts will remain at the pilot stage. But basically, I think we need to take a holistic approach, which is again based on legitimacy and professionalization. And so what I mean by that is legitimacy emphasizes the role to be played by governments in fostering legal and regulated ASM frameworks, um, while professionalization highlights areas critical to ASM entities to meet the legal and ESG obligations. And this is where a multi-stakeholder approach could support, um, and that would be mining companies working together with different initiatives, NGOs, and et cetera.

Assheton Carter:

Right. So I think we're in agreement. Sometimes that's difficult, but that's really the only way it's going to work. Before I move on, um, Daniel, a quick word on the effectiveness of um standards as a tool to improve conditions at artisanal minds. Do you think they they work? And uh are they the same sort of standards you would apply to the ERG um operations, or is there another way to help ASM improve their practices and show to the world that they are in fact meeting appropriate practices and standards?

Daniella Savic:

Yeah, and I think that comes back to what I was saying, right? Um it would tremendously help if we had standardized um and uh universally accepted frameworks or standards. At ERG, we don't have ASM formalization standards per se, because I don't believe it's our role to dictate them or to establish them uh in silo. But yeah, um I think what would really help is to have one set of standards where they stop contradicting each other, because this is what is happening actually.

Assheton Carter:

Right. And in many other sectors, and we now have consolidated standards in large-scale mining, industrial mining, which are coming onto the market, those normally start with an industry association. Um, and of course, there isn't really an industry association globally for informal, because they are by nature informal um sectors and artisanal mining. But Ian, just turning to you on this, like there's the standards, which is sort of the the stick. How about the carrot? How about the the premier that has been a model of things like kind of uh fair trade that if you can demonstrate you prove at a higher standard or a standard that is um admired by the consumer, that can attract higher prices. Is that does that play a part in here? And I know you've had lots of experience with this in other sectors as well.

Ian Welsh:

It can do. Uh, I mean, I think you're you're right that um when you're thinking about engaging consumers, then look at the coffee sector, for example, that's where fair trade has been involved for years. Um, it's quite hard to find um coffee in the supermarket. It doesn't have some form of label standard certification. You know, it there's a clear link there between consumer demand for you know fair trade coffee or certified reinforced alliance or whatever it is. Um they you know they feel that comfort from uh making a purchase uh something that that has been more responsibly sourced. Um yeah, premiums can work, but it's it's important that the premiums get back to the um other end of the supply chain. We've talked a bit about collaboration, and industry associations can play a really important role. I mean, looking at palm oil, for example, the round table on sustainable palm oil um has its own certification system and scheme. It's been quite smart at establishing specific rules and regulations for smallholder farmers. It realized, as I said earlier, there's a difference between dealing with a massive palm oil plantation and a smaller, you know, a one hectare, two hectare plot. Uh so they have different and establishing rules that are different for smallholders. And that means that you're not excluding smallholders from global markets. I mean, the beauty of um of some certification schemes and standard schemes is that they enable and open markets up for smallholder farmers. So that increases the viability and comes back to my income point because these things will only work if everyone accepts that the important thing is that ultimately the grower or the miner has a viable income. That then solves an awful lot of the problems that are associated with small-scale operations, whether in commodity supply chains or in mining. So, yeah, that's the thing that's really important. So industry associations collaborating with cross-sector uh stakeholders, but not forgetting that the key thing is income for uh growers or uh uh miners at the end of the day.

Assheton Carter:

Um but before we, Daniela, before we go to the final questions on what does the future hold, is there anything that you'd like to add about how companies like yours, like ERG, can be encouraged to or can make Make their life easier to help artisan or miners formalize and become more responsible without taking on some of those risks, which are very real in trading chains.

Daniella Savic:

And as you have mentioned it, I think traceability is really key here because this is exactly where responsible supply chains can make or break ASM formalization, I would say. And again, LSMs cannot achieve this alone. We need, as we have discussed, aligned standards and multi-stakeholder partnership convening all parties at the same table, and this would include the beneficiaries themselves. I think the key is to balance risk management with support for miners' livelihood instead of just disengaging, as we have seen in some cases. And yeah, as Ian has mentioned it, I think as consumers, we really understand the complexity of knowing and mapping supply chains. And this is where traceability plays a key role. I would say the GBA battery passport tool, which was piloted by ERG, among other partners, members of the Global Battery Alliance, I think tools like that could really help us, as I said, mitigate risks and but also support more and more parties to take proactive stance on that. And so maybe just to uh explain what is this battery passport tool, uh basically this digital tool tracks and verifies um the battery lifecycle information for uh transparency and circularity, and basically you could retrace the minerals uh going there. And I think that's a great uh voluntary global initiative, and um it would be awesome if one day it could integrate responsible LSM sourced minerals.

Assheton Carter:

Great, and maybe I can have ask you to have a uh make final remarks in response to this question about the future. You you mentioned earlier on that you didn't see any or many initiatives working on autismal mining being scalable. If you fast forward a few years, five years, six years, seven years, what models do you see as being scalable or at least replicable? Do you hold some hope that there can actually be some progress? We must have learned something. We've been working on ASM for 30 years now. Give us some hope, uh, Daniela.

Daniella Savic:

Right. Um, I mean, again, there are a number of very good initiatives. AFCA is one of them. I mean, as ERG, we have also been active um through the GIZ uh led Coubble for Development initiative and et cetera. But um, yeah, again, uh ASM environments are very complex, uh, and that's globally, with unique governance issues, vested interests, and varying levels of government engagement. Um, so I think standardizing the definition of ASM and creating universal standards um would really help us. And yeah, finally, supporting also minor cooperatives, building the capacity to meet sustainability standards could facilitate the participation in the market. Um, but also I would say commitment to longer-term funding that would also help uh the different great initiatives on the ground uh being scaled up.

Assheton Carter:

Great, thanks very much. And the final word to you, Ian. In future, I think this is the inauguration of the Innovation Forum's Critical Minerals um conferences. In future conferences that you hold on this topic, are we going to be talking about ASM or are we just going to be talking about industrial mining and large-scale mining? Um, well, I think we'll be talking about both, really.

Ian Welsh:

I mean, as as we said at the beginning of the conversation, there's enormous potential and it's recognized by the sector for the uh growth in uh sourcing from uh artisanal miners. So I think we'll see, certainly see um significant uh amount of conversations about that at the Innovation Forum's uh critical minerals conference in London. But I think my key takeaway is really that um the mining sector has a lot to learn from others who've engaged with small scale suppliers. And I think we've talked a lot about the kind of transference of learning from dealing with small-scale suppliers because there's so many of the challenges are the same. The labour issues, the income issues, the damaging of the environment, whether it be deforestation or impacting biodiversity, all those issues are similar in agriculture and in mining. So I would say that uh the sector needs to certainly um come together and standardize, uh it's standardized standards. It's really important. Um there's no point in having different parts of the sector asking for different things. Think about data, not something we've talked about today, but data is ever more important. Companies require data to be able to enable the uh transparency and traceability that we've talked about. But if you have data points you're asking from suppliers, let's just make sure that everyone's asking for the same data. It it it you know it can drive um small-scale suppliers uh you know, drive them away from engaging in these matters if you don't make things easy for them. So, yeah, think about what you're asking from suppliers and learn from other sectors. And I think Danielle made a great point, but don't disengage. If you want to work with your supply chain to improve and to you know move things forward, as we've been talking about, don't disengage if there are challenges at the start of the process or indeed at any stage of the process. Engage with your suppliers, work with them to enable them to achieve uh what it is that you're looking for on them. And that is the uh that is the route to success and success at scale.

Assheton Carter:

Well, very sadly that brings us to the end of this podcast. Um, you've heard that this is a very complex topic, and I think many subtopics to those topics. I feel we'd pulled out a lot of threads, but there's many more, there's much more we can do to unravel this complexity, and hopefully we'll get a chance to do more of that at the Critical Minerals Innovation Forum later in in the year. Please check out the rest of these this special series of Critical Minerals Innovation Forum and TDI podcast, Suit and Boots, on the TDI Suits and Boots podcasts channel. I and I'm sure Ian and Daniela very much look forward to seeing you at this year's event where the conversation on ASM and in the new critical minerals era will be continued. Um and you can hear more about today's topic from Daniela and Ian. Thanks very much for listening.