Suits and Boots | The Sustainable Business Podcast

Mining the Future | Sustainability and Circularity beyond ESG

• Season 1 • Episode 19

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This episode goes beyond traditional ESG considerations to explore the evolving field of the circular economy and sustainability in mining. From recycling technologies to waste management solutions, mining companies are adopting circular economy principles to minimise environmental footprints and drive long-term sustainability. The speakers explore innovative ways to reduce waste, maximise resource efficiency, and create value from mining by-products. 

Speakers on this episode:

  • Filipe Guimaraes | Head of Mining R&D - ArcelorMittal
  • Dr Mathias Schluep | Managing Director - The World Resources Forum
  • Joséphine Quioc | Senior Sustainability Consultant - TDi Sustainability

This episode is part of the TDi Sustainability special series of podcasts produced in advance of the 2025 Resourcing Tomorrow event that will take place in London between 2-4 December. Find out more about the event


Joséphine Quioc:

Hello and welcome to this special edition of Suits and Boots, the TDI Podcast series in conjunction with Resourcing Tomorrow. In this series, speakers at this year's Resourcing Tomorrow event discuss some of the key themes that will be covered at the conference. I am Josephine Quioc, Senior Sustainability Consultant at TDI and today's podcast host. In today's discussion, our speakers will be exploring how players at all tiers of the metals and minerals value chain are looking beyond traditional ESG considerations to adopt and leverage circular economy principles that meet both stakeholder expectations and drive long-term business sustainability and corporate financial goals. From recycling technologies to waste management solutions, we'll be discussing some innovative approaches to reduce waste, maximize resource efficiency, and create value from mining by products. We'll also touch on the role of technology in enhancing sustainability within the industry. I am delighted to be joined today for this discussion by Felipe Vasconcelos and Dr. Matthias Schluep. Matthias is the managing director of the World Resources Forum, where he is responsible for business operations and the representation of the association to the public. He currently coordinates recycling and e-waste management projects in cooperation with the Swiss State Secretariat of Economic Affairs and the UN Industrial Development Organization. In previous roles, he provided expertise on sustainability issues for projects with countries in Africa, Asia, and Latin America for national and international government organizations and the private industry. Felipe is the head of mining, research and development at ArcelorMittal and has more than two decades of experience in mining operations and research across major projects. Felipe manages technology and innovation projects across laboratories worldwide, including in Spain, France, Brazil, Canada, and the US. His focus is on decarbonization of the value chain, circular economy, and the integration of the digitalization in AI to enhance mining, primary processes, and sustainability. Welcome, Felipe and Matthias, and thank you for joining us today. Let's start with setting the scene and trying to exactly understand what we mean by going beyond ESG. Over the past years, we've seen noticeable pushback against ESG, driven by political rhetoric from the current US administration and through the omnibus package, which seeks to simplify key EU sustainability regulations. However, despite the shifting tone in some policy circles, stakeholder expectations for meaningful sustainability commitments aren't going anywhere. In fact, if anything, they're rising, especially among investors. Investors are increasingly expecting companies to have clear, credible climate action plans. Why? Because it helps them manage climate-related risks, spot new opportunities in the transition to a net zero economy, and ultimately deliver long-term values for their beneficiaries. Now a question to our guests. As sustainability evolves from a moral imperative to a core business resilience strategy, are we witnessing the death of VSG or its transformation into something more strategically embedded within long-term business growth? Starting maybe with Matthias.

Dr Mathias Schluep :

Thank you, Josephine, and thank you for having me in this podcast. I I would say clearly that this is a transformation into something more strategically. Although politically, we see a changing landscape. I think that doesn't mean the long-term process of ESG, the topic of sustainability, that actually we see the death of those. I think the process has been very clear over the past decades, I would say, uh, that this is becoming more and more important for each uh of the business. Political um developments, they you know, they have bumps, you know, and then you go backwards. And I think this is also a sign that you know you have to improve maybe certain policies, and uh it's a sign that something becomes more mainstream and uh becomes more strategic strategically important.

Filipe Guimaraes:

Well, thank you, Josephine, for the invitation. Thank you uh for having me here. Well, I agree with uh uh Matthias, it it I don't think it is just dying, I think it's being reshaped in a different form. I mean, once what uh we had was uh uh instead of having uh uh a compliance report being filled just to comply with the rules, now it's becoming uh part of the strategy of the companies. Uh social uh pressure and the society as a whole are not willing to accept any more was what was uh accepted uh years ago. So the process has been evolving to a different shape, and now it has become part of the daily life of uh policies and company strategy.

Joséphine Quioc:

Thank you. I think Filipe, you're hinting at a very important point. It could have been another name for this uh podcast of moving beyond compliance. We're no longer seeing um Ease G as a checkbox exercise, but something much more important and as you mentioned, embedded into the daily lives of a corporation. Um, again, a question to both of you what are you hearing from investors today? What are their priorities when it comes to ES G and sustainability and what they're looking at uh when reviewing companies' performance? Maybe starting with Felipe.

Filipe Guimaraes:

Well, from the point of view of investors, I think one important point is uh maybe traceability. Uh I mean having a plan and know exactly the the impacts and how uh ESG measures measures are being uh taken and the impact they have in the in the overall uh performance of the company. I believe also a very important point is uh I think the term is greenwash, is uh talking without having really uh a real plan behind or uh something uh uh to sustain uh the speech. So I think investors are quite uh willing to uh to have their uh resources in a company that has a real strategy and uh a real balance on what is uh uh uh social responsibility and profitability.

Joséphine Quioc:

Mathias, if you want to add to this, maybe.

Dr Mathias Schluep :

Uh I'm probably a little bit less close to investors um from what we are doing than uh Philipe. But I think how I understand it, um investors are looking for long-term sustainable investments opportunity and lowering the risks um in what they are investing in. And I think the important thing is what Philippe has said, uh, reputational risks, I think, is probably something which uh can be added or has been added by Philippe Ross in one or the other way.

Joséphine Quioc:

And definitely something we'll be talking more about reputational risk. Philippe, I wanted to ask you something specific on ArcelorMittal's role in the responsible steel standard. Um, your company has been pivotal in establishing the standard. And so is the message from your stakeholders that there is increased requirement for responsible sourcing and that ESG, as well as broader sustainability, still matters?

Filipe Guimaraes:

Uh definitely. Uh we have our own brand on uh decarbonation steel, and we have been investing and working on the circularity as a whole, not only in mining, but steel as well. Uh the point is that the stakeholders started to listen, uh they they have been listening what the the society and the investors have been playing for the last uh few years. So this also uh helps to, as you mentioned, uh, to pivot the or turn how the company sees the future. I can say that from the the point of view of responsibility, uh we we are taking uh a path that one there's no turning back on this. I don't think that that will be a turn uh a point that we we reach already, we have reached a point of no return. So it's coming to, as I mentioned, to become part of the daily lives of the company. And it's something that we definitely assess before uh talking on any project or increase in the business.

Joséphine Quioc:

Thank you. And I think that as stakeholders are listening, as you're mentioning, um, I found that there is another very valuable document, Matthias. The World Economic Forum publishes an annual world issues report, which I found to be very helpful for my own work in taking temperature or what are the global issues that are being discussed. Um, as part of this work, what changes are you seeing in terms of awareness around ESG, circularity, and sustainability?

Dr Mathias Schluep :

Uh when I look at the stakeholders we are working with, I think there's clearly um an increased awareness of all these three terms. What I think what could be still growing is that we look a little bit above ESG just as it is defined by um regulatory frameworks. Also, circularity, I think circularity became um kind of a buzzword almost. Um, and a lot of companies uh a lot of stakeholders in general still understand that circularity is kind of a a little bit an improved recycling effort. So, actually, still not understanding completely the difference between the linear and um and the circular uh economy. Sustainability, of course, it's a it's a it's a very old term. So, sustainability, I think it's a mainstream term. Um probably still we talk a lot about more about environmental sustainability or look at the environmental part of the triple bottom line and not so much um, for example, at the social part. But overall, I think it is there's a high awareness of these terms and of the concepts. Although, maybe when I look at it as a more scientific person, then probably when it gets into detail, I think there's still some nitty gritty to do for all of all the stakeholders.

Joséphine Quioc:

Thank you. And I find it to be very interesting that you're mentioning circularity as a buzzword that may be considered as something similar to uh recycled plus, but is in fact much more um complex and you know, as mentioned, of course, circular and not linear. And I'd like to talk a bit more about circularity. Um, it is obviously a hot topic because it talks to both the environmental and social issues that can be minimized through mineral production, improve mineral production through circularity, but it also presents a solid business case for longer-term, meaningful business and supply chain sustainability. So meeting different uh goals within a corporation. Turning myself to Felipe, your role at ArcelorMittal focuses on the use of technology to improve sustainability and introduce circular economy principle within the industry with a view to enhanced resource efficiency and sustainability. Can you share how these technologies are contributing to a more sustainable as well as uh more circular practices on the ground?

Filipe Guimaraes:

That's that's a very good question. Uh we can uh split into different answers that are complementary. Uh, you have first an improvement on the current technology. I mean, I totally agree with Matthias that uh circularity uh it's uh a reshape or it's an evolution of the recycling that we used to do. So uh the first thing it's using the current technology or the improvement in the technology to improve our own process, the process that are already there. So looking for the mining perspective, if we improve our process and we improve yield uh recovery, we generate less tailings, for example, so we need less uh necessity for circularity, or we make easier the circularity itself. The second part of the answer would be like we need to stop to look at the mining, uh let's say tailings or waste as tailings and waste. We need to look at the perspective of byproducts, something that we could learn from the steel, which at some point uh recycles more than 80% of their byproducts. Of course, we're talking about different volumes here, but uh they have been investing on these for a long time. And it could be the same for the mining industry. So if we start to uh treat the waste and tailings as byproducts, we could find and finance much better uh technologies to improve and turn them into uh a useful and very uh attractive business case. To come to finish is just for that we need uh some portion of RD. So we need to invest on uh searching the technology that we will use. Uh, because believe me, we don't have use for all details and waste that we generate, so we need to find them yet. So for that, we need to invest.

Joséphine Quioc:

That makes sense, and I think that leads me quite easily to my next question. So investing in research development is is one way, but do you have any other practical example that you've seen of actionable strategies for integrating circular economy principles within the mining value chain? So looking at waste as an opportunity is one, but anything else that you could talk to us about?

Filipe Guimaraes:

All the again, as you mentioned, all depends on the strategy. If we uh invest and we look at the strategy of the company, how to use your own production, your own byproducts uh inside of your own processes. This is one. Uh we could use the interactions between the mining and the steel industry uh to leverage the the research one to another. It's uh when you talk about technology, for example, on the circular economy, you can the steel side has been investing on this for years. So we have been uh searching on byproducts and recycling for I don't know, 25 and 30 years, until we reached a good point of reuse of the material. Something that on the mining industry we're just crowding right now. And that's the point that we we should invest. Uh until 150 years ago, we didn't have antibiotics, until someone could find an usage for uh fungus, and something that nobody ever thought before. And that's uh it looks like naive, but it's the kind of approach that we we need to have here. So already investment and uh circular economy should take the lead in the next in the next few years, in my opinion.

Joséphine Quioc:

Thank you. I think that this um comment of learning from the Steel industry and what that industry has been doing for the past decade is is very valuable. Um, turning myself to Matias, a bit of a similar question and a double question. Almost so I'd like to ask you about, again, practical examples you've seen, so successes in implementing circular practices within the mining value chain, things that have worked, but also some challenges in doing so.

Dr Mathias Schluep :

Uh I'm probably the wrong person to talk about the technologies. Um, I think a person from the mining industry like uh Felipe is uh is much better to do that. Um maybe another thought on this mining industry and circle economy is almost a contradiction because per se the mining, and then talk about primary mining, is actually the beginning of a linear, it could be the beginning of a linear or where the circular economy fails, you know, where we actually cannot achieve the ultimate aim of the circle economy, not needing any primary resources anymore. Of course, that will never be realistic, so it's also not a criticism about the mining industry, of course. Um, we will always need primal resources, or at least right now we need that. But having said that, of course, um the industry itself still in their operations can apply um circular principles in their operations, and Philipe already mentioned tailings, uh slacks, so that actually we invest in technologies um to be more efficient in when we're mining, at least let's get out everything or as much as possible and not wasting resources in the mining practice. So that's for sure. But I think my and this is more vision, you know, the mining industry ultimately should become and has to change its mindset for it also a little bit, become part of a circular economy. Uh, what does that mean? So I think from the inset of business practices, um, make sure that this resources we are mining, that they actually stay in the loop. And what does that mean? If we're talking about uh mineral oil, of course, we burn mineral oil that doesn't stay in the loop, anyways. But we are now talking about um uh energy transition minerals or minerals and metals. And I think there are um policies or um uh strategies discussed like materials as a service, which actually would put the mining industry at the center of a circular economy. So, what if the mining industry has an interest in keeping their minerals and metals in the loop because they're actually maybe they keep on owning them or they keep uh a responsibility for it? So I think, of course, this is all on visionary uh level. I I think we are far away from having solutions for that. But I think this is what I see as a development which has to be happened, that the mining industry is becoming truly circular.

Joséphine Quioc:

Felipe, I don't know if you have any comments on this. I think this is very much in line with the work that you're conducting at Ursula Mittel.

Filipe Guimaraes:

No, I'm I I'm totally in agreement with what Matthias just said. And he put a very good example, which uh the the energy transition is not only uh bring circularity into a different level, but also put mining in a spotlight for uh many different reasons. In that sense, I will come back on what I said before, and I think uh in line what Matthias just said. We need to change the mindset and look uh into a different perspective since the beginning of the value chain. I mean, we mine when we mine, we take run of mine, we take waste, and we take taint in the end. Why not say that uh we produce uh uh three different products? I mean, it all starts with uh a change in the mindset.

Joséphine Quioc:

Thank you. And building back on this, Philippe, I'd like to ask you with a view of making mining more efficient, the role of specific technologies they'll name briefly, and these would be um artificial intelligence in link to um digitalization and how can these tools can enhance sustainability of mining by making it more efficient. And um, another very different type of technology, talking about decarbonization. I know ArcelorMittal is a leader on decarbonizing steel. So, again, a question on how to make mining more efficient, um, embedding sustainability practices into the very inception of how you go about your own business.

Filipe Guimaraes:

Well, that's also a very good question. I mean, you mentioned the use of artificial intelligence. Uh, this by itself, I believe it's the single biggest breakthrough that we had in the last few years. So this is a game changer in many aspects. This by itself will reshape a lot of things. But the use of technology is not only improving the process itself, but improving the the whole value chain, like uh how we ship our products, how we mine, how we depose our tails, how we uh the water tails coming from the treatment of the run of mine. So there is a lot of space in terms of technology that we're not filling yet. Uh, a lot of uh new breakthrough ideas need to come in the next few years so we can catch up with the the requirements on ESG right now. On the decarbonation side, uh you can look, okay, to make a good decarbonized steel, we need a good decarbonized iron ore coming from the mines. That is also uh mandatory. Uh high-quality iron ores. We are talking about uh there was a hype on uh DRI and uh process with hydrogen, so on, but all of these will require high grade iron ore, high grade uh minerals. We have been discussing about energy transition, so lithium, copper, uh cobalt, all those materials, they need to be, I mean, evolving in terms of technology in recycling and production uh to catch up with the requirements.

Joséphine Quioc:

Of course, and we will actually be talking about this topic of mining the gap for this critical and strategic raw material in another of our podcasts, as we know that demand is skyrocketing uh while we live in a world of uh limited resources. Something that I'd like to ask you, Philipe, just to close maybe this topic of technology, is there something that technology cannot do? And the reason I'm asking this is do you see that there's a limit in technology that where there is a gap that needs to be filled by um a real mindset shift? This is something that we've talked about, that the mining industry needs to change its entire mindset. Um but yes, curious on the limitation of the tools that we have and what might be required to further embed circularity or sustainability into mining.

Filipe Guimaraes:

Maybe uh I can start by focusing uh really on the mining uh industry. I mean, the mining industry uh for years had an aversion uh for uh development and breakthrough ideas. So this is something that we need to break the inertia, okay, and uh make the leaders understanding that uh we need to invest and improve in many different ways, and that's something that technology and cannot do. I mean, we can uh show and um and provide the tools, but the mindset has to be there. On the other hand, having that, I don't see limitations uh for uh what can be done. Uh what we need to see is the impact that it generates. We can use, for example, uh iron or tailings as uh a sand for concrete, but what would be the impact of this in the local industry or the local uh uh society? We cannot just flood the the market with a byproduct without taking into consideration what would happen with uh uh different uh small suppliers that have that the community has. So I think a broader view or a very deep assessment on the impact on the circularity needs to come before technology sculpting. I mean, it's uh just a way of seeing things.

Joséphine Quioc:

This is very interesting. I often find that my work on sustainability and circularity has a strong focus on these trade-offs. Um, you decide no longer to source from a certain region, but what happens when you disengage? And you need to understand those trade-offs. And this example on uh using iron ore tailings as sense for concrete is really a great example for that. Now moving a bit away from mining and directing this question to Matthias. Um, with regards to e-waste and secondary raw materials, you coordinate recycling and e-waste management projects with SECO and Unido. Could you share examples of how e-waste or secondary material programs have the ability to reduce pressure on primary mining and foster economic opportunities? Then maybe as a follow-up question, how can mining companies support these efforts?

Dr Mathias Schluep :

Yeah, I I I think the ultimate aim is of course that we use better um what we have as resources in our in our build environment, in our consumer products, etc., that actually we keep them in the loop, we keep keep them circular, that we actually um reduce the pressure on having the need to mine primary materials. So that's definitely the case. Um with our program, which you have mentioned, e-waste, also especially in the global south. I think e-waste is a special case, electronic waste, because it really contains a lot of these materials we are seeking for right now, for the energy transition, for new mobility. So kind of the new type of resources we we are in demand now. So and I think it's it's it's still underused the opportunity we have in this area of um of accessing these materials. Um it's a little bit different uh looking at at secondary raw material, instead of exploring geologically an area. I think you could say the exploration of an area is to actually put a collection system right, to put responsibilities for the producers right, so that we have a system in place which is efficient that we actually can access these materials. When we talk about the global south, um important is that we have to understand realities. Realities are also that a lot of this collection and also the recycling is taking part in the so-called informal economy. And I think we need also solutions to work with the informal economy in these regions because it's just not um realistic to just ignore them. So I think there's there's a lot of these um strategies which um can be improved in many parts of the world to actually get better access to secondary raw materials. Now, your second question you have to repeat.

Joséphine Quioc:

Of course, um, but this is really interesting. I think this lesson on having to be pragmatic and working with potentially informal economy is very valuable. My question was if you foresee any ways in which mining companies can support these efforts, whether it's collection system, uh improving producer responsibility, as you mentioned, or anything else that can further convey circular goals.

Dr Mathias Schluep :

Um mining companies or let's say uh different stakeholders in the in the mining value chain, I think they have a lot of knowledge how to access these raw materials. I mean, you know, refining capabilities, understanding metallurgy of the materials, et cetera. I think this somehow has to grow together. The knowledge needed for secondary raw material from the knowledge which has been created over many decades or even centuries for from the mining business, which uh which is much older than the recycling business. I think that's that's where I also see that um mining companies, if They change their minds, and I think they are becoming part of, or they will in the future not just see the primary raw material as their source material. I think the mining, and it's actually happening already. The mining industry will also see the secondary raw materials as their source material. I know that large mining companies are already now investing in recycling uh activities.

Joséphine Quioc:

Thank you. And I'd like to go with another question with you, Mathias, um, because it going back to our um topic for today of balancing sustainability as something that is catering to both ESG goals but also business resilience. I'd like to invite you to reflect on how developing nations are working to balance resource extraction with sustainability goals and how potentially global frameworks can influence industry practices.

Dr Mathias Schluep :

You mean on the governmental level in the global south?

Joséphine Quioc:

Yes. So that's both on a governmental level and an industry level. We're seeing a lot of countries catching up with um high living standards, and they may need to do so by foregoing sustainability goals. Um, so how can these countries still balance resource extraction, with which is an imperative from an economic development agenda standpoint, with the sustainability goals, which also are increasingly required from uh Western consumers? So I'd like to um invite you to reflect on this tension and how potentially circularity is one way to go about making resource extraction something that is economically uh meaningful, yet aligns with the sustainability agenda of consumer countries such as the global north.

Dr Mathias Schluep :

Um yeah, that's a difficult question. Because mining per se is actually you could argue it's not it's not a sustainable business in a way that whatever we do, there will always be an impact, no? And and uh this again is not a criticism about the mining industry, it's about us as human beings that if we want to have access to raw material, we will have an impact on the environment, we'll have an impact on social. Uh so this always has an impact on something. But of course, how can you mitigate this impact? And uh it reflects a little bit on the discussions we had so far. Of course, you also um countries in the global south, I think they have to tighten their policies also when they are working with the international industries who eventually mine their resources, so um that they tighten the policies, that um the level playing field is clear in these countries, that they have the same standards as are um somewhere else in the world, etc. I think circularity also plays a role um in the sense of that also in this in these countries, as I said already, you know, you have secondary raw materials, and I think they can have maybe rather than having policy just on recycling and mining, maybe they have the integrative uh policy view on uh what that means for circular economy in the country. Yeah, I mean but I think I staying a little bit general because I find it quite tough, the question. Uh, there's probably not one recipe just to tell you how how they do it. But uh in in the end, it's it's it's all about policies, enforcement, uh governance in these countries, which uh still in a lot of countries it's kind of weak.

Joséphine Quioc:

Thank you. I do think this is a really good answer, and also a really good introduction to uh my final question before we move to closing remarks. Um namely, would you be able to name one action or one policy which you think could have the biggest potential impact in accelerating circular economy principle in mining and um the entire value chain globally? So maybe starting with Matthias, because we were just talking about uh policy, but if there's really one that comes to your mind.

Dr Mathias Schluep :

Yeah, it's it's something I mentioned already. I think if we start to think towards material as a service, what does that mean? So we are not just selling materials and then they are sold and they are belong to somebody else. Um we are maybe leasing materials or we are we are providing materials as a service. I think this is probably, or at least in this direction, a policy which can change a lot because this changes the mindset. We we have we have seen that in the new economy already. I mean, there is services which is already mainstream in some areas. Um, the leasing of chemicals, this is happening already. Of course, in an older economy, everybody bought the car, and now we are sharing cars, we are renting cars. Um we we also receive a lot of services in our daily life, um, not by owning something, but just by accessing materials or products as a service. And I think that is something which has to be thought further also for primary raw materials.

Joséphine Quioc:

Thank you. I will definitely be uh living this podcast with this idea of materials as a as a service, as a very interesting food for thought. Felipe, same question. Um, what one action or policy do you think could have the biggest impact in accelerating circular economy principle in the mining value chain?

Filipe Guimaraes:

Well, again, for me, as uh it's a very difficult question. Um I don't see one single policy uh doing all the job. I think that there will be different impacts. Uh if I may uh uh if I allowed myself to go a little bit further uh on the question, Josephine, is uh I think common sense is uh is the best is the best tool that we have. But besides that, uh uh tools that like uh life cycle assessments and and so on may move uh into the direction that what Matthias just mentioned. I mean, it doesn't make sense to go for uh electrification or to produce electric steels or uh electric vehicles uh in in a place or in a country where the energy matrix uh it's coal-based. So uh I believe what we need is actually a global standard or uh uh a common sense on what would bring benefits in terms of uh the mining industry and secularity itself. So on this point, uh we we already have a lot of policies, uh uh ICMM uh and many others. But what we need is actually something that makes sense for everybody. So I know that my answer was uh kind of diffuse, playing Switzerland I uh uh here, but it's uh it's because I don't have one simple answer for that.

Joséphine Quioc:

I think this was also a really good answer, common sense. Um it is it is it is a very useful remark. Thank you to our speakers for joining us today. Please check out the rest of this special series of resourcing tomorrow podcast on the TA Suits and Boots Podcast channel. Hope to see you at this year's event where the conversation on circularity and sustainability beyond the SG will be continued, and you will get to hear more on today's topic from Matthias and Philippe. Thanks for listening.