Suits and Boots | The Sustainable Business Podcast

CMIF: Banking on Change - How Transition Finance is Redefining Mining

• Season 1 • Episode 20

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In this episode, we unpack what “transition finance” means in practice—moving beyond mere labels to the hard levers of industrial decarbonisation. The discussion dives into financing pathways for steel and mining: electrified and biofuel haul fleets, trolley-assist, renewable Purchase Power Agreements, and designing new projects for net zero from day one (not retrofitting later). 

We explore how credible ESG performance links directly to investor confidence and permitting, why showing “what good looks like” on site can reset perceptions of modern mining, and where circularity and recycling may scale next. The talent challenge also takes centre stage—how automation and AI change the skills map and why early, hands-on experience still matters. Finally, we connect geopolitics and tariffs to risk, valuations, and cost of capital—arguing for pragmatic, fundamentals-led finance of real, needed hard assets.

Speakers on this episode:

  • Catriona Bell | Director - Transition Finance | Standard Charter
  • Assheton Stewart Carter | Executive Chair & Founder - TDi Sustainability

This episode is part of the TDi Sustainability special series of podcasts produced in advance of the Critical Minerals Innovation Forum (CMIF) event that will take place in London between 5 & 6 November 2025. Find out more about the event here.

Assheton Carter:

Hello and welcome to this special edition of Suits and Boots, the TDI podcast series in conjunction with the Innovation Forum. In this series, speakers at this year's inaugural Critical Minerals Innovation Forum event discuss some of the key themes that will be covered at the conference. I'm Ashton Stewart Carter, Executive Chair at TDI, and your host for today's podcast. This episode is all about transition finance, and we unpack what transition finance means in practice. Moving beyond mere labels to the hard levers of industrial decarbonization. The discussion dives into financing pathways for steel and mining, electrified and biofuel haul fleets, trolley assist, renewable purchase power agreements, and designing new projects for net zero from day one, not retrofitting later. We explore how credible ESG performance links directly to investor confidence and permitting, while showing what good looks like on site can reset perceptions of modern mining and where circularity and recycling may scale next. The talent challenge also takes center stage, how automation and AI change the skills map and why early hands-on experience still matters. Finally, we connect geopolitics and tariffs to risk, evaluations and cost of capital, arguing for pragmatic, fundamentals-led finance of real needed hard assets. Katriona is currently the director of Metals and Mining Transition Finance, a standard chartered bank, where she focuses on sustainable investment and funding for critical minerals, a topic that's becoming increasingly vital as the world accelerates towards net zero. Her career path is as fascinating as it is diverse. She began as a geologist exploring and modeling all deposits before moving into private equity, investing in early and mid-stage exploration projects. She later joined Rio Tinto, where she served as principal advisor for energy and climate change in the copper group. Chief was staff for CEO and worked in the ventures team on battery metals, mergers, and acquisitions. Beyond her corporate career, Captioner has also been a champion for the next generation of mining professionals. She co-founded Young Mining Professionals UK and helped build the Young Mining Professionals Global Network, creating platforms for young leaders to connect and grow within the industry. It is a pleasure to have Captiona with us today to unpack the evolving role of finance in the energy transition, explore how capital can drive responsible mining, and discuss what it will take to deliver a just and sustainable transition for the metals and minerals that underpin it. Welcome, Catriona.

Catriona Bell:

Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.

Assheton Carter:

So I've I've just introduced very briefly your career, but it sounds like a really interesting career. Fun, in fact. You seem to have covered many different um parts of the economy from private equity to corporate strategy and now transition finance. Tell us a little bit about how you got here and why why you got here. Tell us a little bit about your journey.

Catriona Bell:

I think it all started um back in my childhood, really. I grew up in Cornwall, and that was a great place to be exposed to mining history. I was running around the coastline uh with all the old engine houses, and I just had a very strong exposure during my childhood to the um impact of mining, the history of it in terms of how Cornwall uh developed. And as I went through my school years, my aptitude in science really forced me into thinking about that for university, and I decided that actually going down one single avenue in science would be not as not as interesting. And I discovered that earth science and geology actually brought together all the sciences and applied them to the real world, and that is um that was most interesting to me. So I ended up going to study geology at university. And when you're in geology, then typically in the time that I did it was sort of three career paths. One was academia, the second was oil and gas, and the third was mining. And at the time, um I didn't quite fancy going to live in an offshore rig and log mud for two years, which was the typical graduate role for a um a geologist in oil and gas. Uh, and mining, you you uh could stay on land, and also the rocks would be uh a bit more interesting to look at. Interestingly, I kind of had an interest in the finance sphere as well, um, both through A levels in economics and maths, um, and so wanted to get exposure to that. So during my university career, I had one experience which was working as an underground exploration geologist uh in Manitoba and Canada in an underground nickel mine. And the second one was sitting on the Golden General Fund at Black Rock, so two absolutely completely different experiences, but they gave me a sense of the full value chain of mining and who funds it and also how does it start at the very at the very beginning. So that's how I ended up going into mining. And the mentor I had at BlackRock, who is currently the chief development officer of BHP, she said, take advantage of having a technical background and go and get your boots dirty. I went then to Australia and became an exploration geologist out there for two, two to three years, um, came back, did resource geology, and then had this feeling like, well, I wonder what the mining finance roles look like now. I've got a good body of technical experience. Um, I did a conversion sort of course at Imperial in metals and energy finance, um, and then worked my way into private equity through Rio and into a standard chartered bank as um in a transition finance role. So again, mining was prompted by my interest in the rocks, and that still is what grounds me today. And then um the commercial aspects are kind of how we tangibly apply that real real-world sort of application and the importance of mining in the economy is is kind of what sparked that.

Assheton Carter:

Well, I think that resonates very strongly with me on a couple of things. One thing is is Cornwall, you know, it's not just um surfers and beach bums, but you've got the Eden Project and that great history of mining down there, and I absolutely um that resonates so strongly with me. And I spent quite a lot of time in the early days of Eden Project and the post-mining alliance and developing that, and I agree it's a great, must have been a great backdrop. And your very kind of diverse background, I think, is a great advertisement for the mining, getting a career in mining in the minerals value chain. It is multidisciplinary, you can grow into many different areas, exercise your different skills. So that's that's tremendous to hear, and we'll hear a little bit more about um perhaps women in mining as well. But tell us a little bit about your job now at Standard Charter, Transition Finance. I think I know what that means, but perhaps you could tell us a little bit what it means for you and what it means for Standard Chartered.

Catriona Bell:

Yeah, it's a great question. Transition Finance, when I came into the bank, it was it was um a small team of industry, like a bit of an industry task team, right? So um bringing together individuals to help facilitate the bank's um ambition of net zero financed emissions. And what that meant from a metals and mining nexus was the lending into the steel industry and how the steel industry can decarbonize. So instead of just putting it on our clients that the industry had to decarbonize, we said, okay, how can we help them do that? And by getting industry experts in, they can provide the insight and the support of the decarbonisation, both the technical solutions as well as enabling the financing of those. So that's what we really look to do within transition finance within the bank, but broad more broadly than just steel, I mean we have experts from carbon capture and storage, uh, alternative fuels, uh, the battery value chain all coming together to understand the best solution for our clients in terms of their decarbonisation journey. So very much focused on industrial decarbonisation. Whilst there is broader lending to the business, the transition finance team itself focuses on supporting our MA product group as well as our project finance uh product group with industry insight and deep connectivity within those spheres. I think it's a it seems unfortunately a bit of a buzzword and people aren't quite sure where it sits. Um, and I think that's a shame because it is not something that is just a tag, it's actually a real committed effort to assisting the world's decarbonisation through the lever of providing finance. In terms of how it differs from traditional project finance, if the project itself will go some way to reduce the carbon emissions of that industry or that particular operation, that can be transition finance. Additionally, when you consider apply to the metals and mining sphere, if a mine is mining a transition metal, for instance, copper or something that goes into the battery value chain, we also consider that transition finance.

Assheton Carter:

So transition finance then is a um you'll choose your projects or your transactions because of the intent. There's got to be something there about decarbonisation. That's one description. You could also say that it could be a project which has a mineral that is going to contribute to decarbonisation because it's uh can be used in electrification downstream. How about the modalities? Are the is it this is all project finance or can it just be corporate finance as well?

Catriona Bell:

Corporate finance of a company that our sole objective is to be providing decarbonisation solutions. So let's say it's a it's a technology company that is solving a problem within steel, or it's a carbon capture and storage manufacturer, or something like that. So that is that is what we consider also transition finance. So any corporate lending into that space would be.

Assheton Carter:

Excellent. I I have um some of my backgrounds in finance, and I seeded a private equity fund in um in mining. And one of the difficulties I found there, this is going back a decade, was actually kind of raising capital because the attitude towards mining was um, well, not very welcoming, let's put it that that way, partly because it has seen to be a very specialist thing and partly because there's alternatives to mining which make more money. Um, and also around the kind of ESG things. I'm just wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you see the attitude as changing now that I think it's fair to say people realize that minerals are going to be important for coming into um a more decarbonised economy. And you I guess what I was picking up on what you were saying beforehand is is it fair to say that for standard charter you need an access point which is around transition finance? So you're saying we're not going into mining directly, but we're going into it in order to decarbonize. Was that sort of a justification? Um and does that tell us anything about the changing attitudes towards mining from the finance and investment community?

Catriona Bell:

I think the answer is you know, across all the aspects of financing there is a strong ESG performance uh expectation. So transition finance is one element of our of our lending, and absolutely any any other lending is covered by a very detailed framework that is strongly held to. I think the broader question is sort of how is the how is the investor attitude changing towards mining with the energy transition race for critical minerals? I think there's an interesting dynamic here because there's a sense of urgency around developing these mines now, and a lot of that has been um caused by shifts in political rhetoric and the need for resilience outside of uh a strong uh reliance on China from a processing perspective, and how we as a as an industry kind of consider ESG metrics there, given some of the countries are let's say politicizing that that term. Um I think mining in general has always been focused on ensuring um and evolving and better better ESG standards.

Assheton Carter:

Yeah, I think what you're saying, if I'm hearing this correctly, is that investors and finances financiers uh look at and um expect that ESG standards, sustainability standards are continuously improved, and that's a good metric for understanding um whether this is a responsible mine or not. I guess what I'm asking is does that give investors more comfort that mining is a an investment that they can have in their on their books?

Catriona Bell:

I've mentioned about the the tension between getting the mines developed quickly and the ESG credentials. Um I think there's always going to be a very strong understanding that mining can be a solution to many of these um sort of broader uh environmental um issues with the race to net zero and the criticality of these metals as they go into the battery value chain. So there is a necessity, but it's also a need to do it responsibly. And typically the narrative has been quite negative on mining, as you well know, uh given your background and it an issue and um And do you think that do you think that investors and financiers believe that there is such a thing now as responsible mining? Yeah, there absolutely is responsible mining. There's there's there is you know exceptional um examples of responsible mining out there, and there's a lot of there's a lot long way to go in in in a lot of areas. So I think, yes, well, you're absolutely right about the attitudes and and the backdrop and the evolution of that. And I think you know, prompted by the heightened scrutiny um and also visibility of minerals and mining in the in the in the media, it's become it's become more of a um topic of conversation. Um I think you know, I I've always been a mining advocate, having been on well-run sites where I know the lengths and uh work that goes into trying to reduce a footprint as much as possible by being a good responsible actor, by engaging with communities, but but I'm also cognizant that that isn't necessarily the experience of every mining um operation globally and throughout history. So obviously there have been poor actors in the past. So I think what's important about how we communicate mining uh is that you know recognition that we've we've come from um not so uh great and not so great operations um to definitely uh you know some of the highest tech technologies and the involvement of communities, it's a constantly evolving space. There's uh much more um you know, the consolidated mining framework initiative that is taking place has just enabled uh the industry to collaborate on how mining is done responsibly. You know, investor perception um is clearly coloured, but is is evolving towards um as the need for these minerals and the communication from the industry outwards in terms of what good looks like. Um but you know, unfortunately, we are we are um for every one negative, you need seven positive to sort of outweigh. So we're sort of or we're quite much on the back foot when it comes to this. But I think our challenge is how we bring it to the um forefront of people's minds, like what good looks like and how that is being implemented. Because in some ways it's a it's a kind of out of sight, out-of-mind reality, um, in that people day to day, whilst they use their minerals, they don't see the, they don't see the mines, they don't see good minds, they often see poor performance that has been brought up, and that it's obviously something that we have to recognise and and deal with. Ultimately, permitting and a lot of the mines have been held up in permitting because there's a lack of trust and a lack of uh, and that's being caused by a broader the narrative of mining being not as um not as strong. So I think it does stem from showing what good looks like to the investors, to the communities, so that the permitting process is easier, and therefore the investor community have confidence that the what they're investing in will be brought to you know to production um and be done in a responsible way.

Assheton Carter:

Yeah, you're so right. As humans, we're kind of wired to look at the negative side of things. The whole of the kind of the risk industry picks up on adverse news. That's what we seem to enjoy of the negativity bias. Um, so I think it's great that you're there to be the ambassador to convey what the reality is on the ground. And one thing I picked up on there was um back in the day I worked with Walmart, the big US store, and I did a fully traceable gold supply chain. And to convince the Walmart executives that it was okay to have a fully traceable gold supply chain up to a mine, um, we had to leave it there program, which was called um eat what you cook, which means that they they always have to go and experience what they're selling to their customers. So we did exactly that. We put 10 Walmart executives onto their executive plane, flew them to Nevada, took them around the Carlin trend, and looked at some mines around there, and so they could actually understand what it is because visualizing that, seeing what it is, and going, oh, that's what a mine is, that's not what it looks like on Google. So I think you're absolutely right. Um part of your background, I think must be very useful in um standard charters, is you have a technical background and you were part of the or led the copper group's energy and climate change effort at Rio Tinto. Could you give us um an idea of some of the the steps that you took there or mining companies can actually take to decarbonize? Um it seems such a big job. So, what are the the practical things that you ask and potentially finance?

Catriona Bell:

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think for uh for the copper group, it was um very much a scope, um, scope one and two of their emissions. When it came to um scope one, it was around um the mining trucks. So, how do you solve for uh diesel-run haul trucks? And there are a number of technical solutions that were being explored there, you know, including the likes of um trolley assists or electric haul trucks, but also using biofuels, which I think they've gone gone on to uh implement. The other, of course, is procuring renewable energies insofar as one can from um the grid, so negotiating um renewable energy private PPAs. The other areas are considering how um you can leverage carbon credits. So obviously that's a sort of stepwise solution, but that's something that you can make a sort of nearer-term impact, positive impact, whilst the technical solution um comes to fruition on the mine site. So those were some of the some of the things that uh the Corporate Group explored. Um, but it it is a an absolute effort, and given the not only do you have to have the technical solution, you have to be able to allocate capital in the most efficient way across their portfolios. So, how does that compete with sort of ongoing business as usual capital? And then, of course, when you um are putting sort of retrofitting mines, you've got to consider how how you're developing new mines. So when uh you're looking at your project portfolio, you've got to consider designing those for net zero rather than doing it a traditional way. Um, and so it's all sort of in the planning process when you're thinking about the you know the the width of the whole um hall roads, for instance, are they sufficient to uh employ trolley assist or any innovative technology? So, yeah, there was a number of different um levers we looked at pool, and obviously when it comes to the financing aspect of those, it's trying to articulate what the value proposition is. So not only are we were we considering you know decarbonized solutions and net zero solutions, but what was the financial benefit to doing so because ultimately it has to be sustainable. So any way that there was a uh you know a positive economic return, that that obviously is a is uh is one that could be can be financed.

Assheton Carter:

The biggest contributor to CO2 for mining, I think, is commutation. So the reducing the size of the ore, um crushing essentially. Um and that absolutely and that obviously needs to have um a connection to the grid or or uh very considerable um power generation from elsewhere. Is that something also that standard charter would finance underneath the transition financing, so the auxiliary and ancillary industries that um allow the transition to happen at a mine?

Catriona Bell:

It's something that that sort of kind of falls squarely within a transition finance framework. It's not something that we've had opportunity sort of brought to us or you've explored at the moment, but it's definitely we'd be interested in in thinking through what projects exist in that regard. And uh yeah.

Assheton Carter:

Yeah. And and I I bring it up because um another conversation we're having is around decommissioning enclosure and how that could potentially in some places be an opportunity for um you know planting renewable energy installations, whether that's a topic maybe for the conference. Changing subjects a little bit is uh a part of your background is that you co-founded Young Mining Professionals in the UK and you helped build YMP Young Mining Professionals globally. Thinking about talent and um you know, as long as I've been doing this, the search for talent and to attract talent in the mining industry has always been um a tough one. Uh but things are now changing because there's great automation and you can plant these facilities nearer to um urban centres. Tell us a little bit about your view, your personal view, I guess, on how to get people like you into the industry, um, and whether that's something that the bank looks at as well when you're doing your due diligence on a mine.

Catriona Bell:

So this is a perennial problem, and um I'm pretty sure throughout my 15-year career so far, every year in the conference, there's a there's a panel on talent crisis and the uh the you know the wave of retirements that are expecting and the the leakage of um of of you know qualified engineers. So, how does one look to solve for that? I think by founding We Unlined Professionals in the UK, that was very much about trying to find fellow peers and create a platform for them to both identify career opportunities, but also as a as a sort of collective, be a bit of an advocacy group, sort of looking externally and going into schools and trying to promote the industry. Um but I think this is also very localized and sort of different jurisdictions are facing different issues. I think in the sort of developed West, when you can consider the uh you know Europe and um the USA and Canada, this is a this is a problem. It hasn't been the most attractive of careers, there's limited number of um schools sort of producing those technical skills. And so there's there's the gap sort of in the West. But I would say the opportunity um to source really strong talent from the likes of Latin America and and India, there is a lot of people who are who are definitely interested in working in mining um just in those jurisdictions. I think that has to do with the prominence of mining within those countries, the I I guess the career opportunities that are visible. So from a UK perspective, there's there's virtually no mining here, um, and it is evolving, yes, but uh you'll probably have to go abroad um to get a to get a job. But then you also have the cyclic cyclicality of the industry. So okay, you're in it, but what I'm saying, you know, the industry, uh the commodity cycle turns and there's all of a sudden uh limited jobs. So it's it definitely have to have a sort of either be exposed to it when you're young, like I was, or have um fall into it by accident, as many people who I talk to have done. So, how do we make it more attractive? I think you mentioned very um well that the kind of skill set is changing, right? So you can have remote um automated mines that you're running from a city, um, it's very high tech. The use, I'm sure the use of um AI will proliferate throughout the industry very uh in in relatively short order given its potential. So, you know, trying to harness those technical skills that are not purely um mining technical skills, um I think will provide uh a great great diversity and and and opportunity for the the young people to be interested in in mining. The other um aspect to this is of course that there's a lot of a lot of tech and software, etc., is intangible and there seems to be a bit of momentum to focus on hard assets and what is what is real and if AI is going to take over all the all this the software, the intangible, how do we how do you position yourselves um for the hard assets? And uh I think that we could sort of capture um those those eyes that are turning and try and um provide the the the industry that that kind of looks to solve for those tangible things and um create, of course, or the bedrock of of all that that comes on and is developed from from mining mining's products.

Assheton Carter:

Yeah, I think that's very well said, and I I think we're gonna see how this plays out. But my big worry is to have effective people like you um in different parts of the value chain and mining, you have to have your early career actually going out to mine, looking at a rock, understanding what that rock is. If those early stage opportunities aren't there because they're replaced somewhat by AI, then you're not gonna have the critical thinking, that intuitive sense of what works when you take a different role later in your career. So I've got a feeling that youth employment is going to be something we we all need to look at, not just in mining, but across many different sectors. Another topic, um, and this could be a short answer to a question is around uh circularity. So you could say that the transition is obviously about kind of mining, but also there's all that stuff which happens after mining, and um there's end-of-life products, and there's you know remining and there's um recycled um economy and so on. What part do you see that playing generally in finance? And in particular, is that something which standard charter looks at as well? Some of those downstream, if you want, post-mining, post-consumer um opportunities?

Catriona Bell:

Currently, the it is a relatively immature space, and um recycling tends to be quite um fragmented and localized. And I think there's a big opportunity in terms of what consolidation might do, and uh maybe technologies that are going to be more agile in terms of being localized to the source of um of scrap or of uh recycling feedstock. And then the circular economy itself is is definitely an area that that standard charter is absolutely um looking to support and And we've got clients exploring solutions in this space. And you know, it we see it as absolutely a key emerging sector in metals and mining, right? So the products that use primary origin minerals will be eventually have an end of life. And I think there's also a strong push for manufacturers to develop products that are have um recycling in within their sort of DNA as and how they're how they're constructed to make that an easier process. So I think when the whole value chain can work in sync, then the um financing opportunity becomes um becomes uh larger and that there's there'll be more appetite for that.

Assheton Carter:

Yeah, no, that's a big hurrah for me. One of the one of our clients that we work with is Fairphone and very, very early on developed um a modular phone so you can break it into seven or eight different parts. Essentially, the end in mind. I think that's exactly the way to go. One more one more topic before we um prick up, um before we wrap up, rather. Um, so we're talking at the moment where it's very difficult to take your eyes away from the rolling news coming in around um tariffs and international trade and responses to tariffs and so on. What does all this mean for um for financiers and investors? How how do you navigate all this?

Catriona Bell:

I think it's a it's a pretty tricky one where um markets move on tweets rather than um on sort of traditional fundamentals that one's been used to uh looking at. And I think navigating it, uh it all it does, it's sort of it increases it increases the risk, risk profile. So when we're looking at uh you know the the impact on in the near term on commodity markets, we it's it's it's obvious um the the swings in in um you know the copper price, the and of course rare earths, you know, back and forth on that. So when you are investing in these mines, like what is a long-term price you're looking for, and how can we, you know, how how do we back solve for that? And is this a structural change or is this a whim? Or so there's a huge amount of uncertainty, and that brings that unfortunately sort of breeds a bit of paralysis as as people kind of trying to understand and what what the read through of all of it is. To be able to predict, I think, is is not necessarily a fool's game, but it's something you just have to sort of navigate around and think about what are the what are the pragmatic assumptions and go back to the um supply-demand fundamentals and sort of hope that that will be uh what transpires because ultimately you'll have to, with higher risk, you know, financing becomes more expensive, and then that um in turn creates a um higher need for uh you know higher grade in the in the in the mine or the a better return. And ultimately that will kind of stifle investment. So I think there will be um what will transpire is a set amount of privatism here that should uh hopefully unlock financing going forward.

Assheton Carter:

Yeah, in some way, so all this all this movement on geopolitics and tariffs is going to affect the MPV and valuations as that sort of risk is factored in. And so it's even more important to focus on the fundamentals and as you were saying earlier, on the hard assets part of this. You know, um, have you actually got something on the ground that somebody wants and can it be moved? Yeah. That's um that's tremendous. I'd love to just wrap up with um a little word game. This is very good fun, Katriana. So you're going to enjoy this. Um, and there's no right answer. So the game is I'll just read out um a word or a phrase, and you just respond with whatever comes to mind in a single word or a sentence. Got it. Okay, here's the first one. Mine of the future. Sustainable. Sustainable. Okay, very good. Perfect answer. Here's the second uh phrase. Just transition. Fair. Fair, as in there's equitable, no one left behind. And you can answer and then the final one to end on, and you can expand this into a sentence. It doesn't have to be a one-word response.

Catriona Bell:

Oh, okay. Sorry, I thought I was like sticking to one word.

Assheton Carter:

Well, no, I think that's very efficient. Um China.

Catriona Bell:

Ooh. China has a lot of what the West requires in terms of engineering and processing capabilities. So pragmatic engagement with them is prudent.

Assheton Carter:

Interesting, very good circumspect answer. I was wondering whether you're going to say they have a lot of finance, and so they might be competing, but you didn't. So we'll so we'll close it there. And um really thank you so much, Katriana. That was very interesting. Really interesting to hear about your career. I do think that you are a poster for people who want to come into the mining minerals value chain and carve a career out of there. And it's uh we're very lucky to have you on the podcast and we'll see you at the Innovation Forum.

Catriona Bell:

Great. I really look forward to it. Thanks again for the chat. It's been it's been fabulous. Thank you.

Assheton Carter:

Sadly, that brings our podcast to an end for today. It leads it to me just to thank our speaker for joining us and spending time with us. Please check out the rest of the special series of Critical Minerals Innovation Forum podcast on the TDI Suits and Boots podcast channel. I hope to see you at this year's event where the conversation on the practical realities of a just transition will be continued, and you can hear more on today's topic from Katriona. Thanks for listening.