Suits and Boots | The Sustainable Business Podcast

Mining Indaba: The Capital Shift | Examining Mining’s Alternative Funding Sources

• Season 2 • Episode 1

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 24:23

This podcast discusses the shifting sources of capital surrounding mining, considers ESG risk and responsibility in terms of mining finance and looks forward to discuss what financing innovations - whether structures, partnerships or instruments - are most promising in delivering both speed and responsibility.

Speakers include:

  • Assheton Stewart Carter | Executive Chair & Founder, TDi Sustainability
  • Heidi Sternberg | Mining Investment Specialist, Public Investment Corporation

This episode is part of the TDi Sustainability special series of podcasts produced for the Mining Indaba event that will take place in Cape Town between 9th – 12th February 2026. Find out more about the event>

Assheton Stewart Carter:

Hello and welcome to this special edition of Suits and Boots, the TDI Sustainability Podcast Series in partnership with the Investing in African Mining in Daba. In this series, speakers at the 2026 Mining in DABA event discuss some of the key themes that will be covered at the conference. I'm Ashton Stewart Carter, Executive Chair at TDI Sustainability. Welcome to today's episode where we're taking a hard look at the evolving world of mining finance. With traditional lenders becoming more selective and new sources of capital stepping into the gap, the industry is facing questions about speed, responsibility, and who really controls access to funding and finance. Joining us today is Heidi Sternberg from the Public Investment Corporation to explore whether ESG linked finance is making mining smarter or slower, and what innovations and investor expectations will shape the sector as we head into 2026. To introduce Heidi briefly, she has over 20 years' experience in South Africa's investment and mining industries, holding positions in research and equity analysis and investment strategy. She's also held positions as an exploration consultant and a trainee geologist, so a mining industry value chain veteran. At the PIC, she is a specialist in mining and minerals beneficiation. This is influential as PIC is Africa's largest fund manager. She develops long-term investment strategies and identifies key thematic opportunities that align with sustainable development. So she is an investor with a purpose, being dedicated to harnessing responsible mining investment as a transformative force for national growth and development in her country. A commitment that I'd say is much needed at the moment, I feel, in a world that feels ever more self-serving and transactional. So welcome, Heidi.

Heidi Sternberg:

Thanks, Ashton, and thanks for having me.

Assheton Stewart Carter:

Great. Well, um, I'd like to start, if I may, by you setting the scene a little bit and um talk a little bit about yourself and your journey and maybe what is your investment thesis at PIC and the mandate um regarding mining and minerals investment.

Heidi Sternberg:

Thanks. So yes, I've been at the PIC for almost a decade now, and over this time we have done a lot of research looking at different aspects of mining and where we think that the key investment opportunities will lie in the future. Um and from a South African perspective, we have just to give you a little bit of history, I suppose, um, and what our research has found is that um mining or exploration investment in South Africa has declined significantly over the last 35 years or so, declining by about 77% over this time. And most of this decline has come through as the larger mining houses have left South Africa and with them they have taken their exploration teams and their exploration budgets too. And even though the South African government is making a big push towards increasing exploration and mining exploration in South Africa, there just hasn't been as much focus on this area as they possibly wanted. They are wanting to see at least 5% of global exploration focusing on South Africa, and it's probably currently sitting well below 1% at the moment, with very little of that going to greenfield exploration. And as I'm sure you understand, if there's no greenfields exploration, then there's no mining development and there's no long-term mining projects to invest into. And I think that's what we're seeing from a South African perspective at the moment is that there are only a handful of projects actually currently coming up the value curve in South Africa because of this lack of investment in the early stage. Um, more on this is that um the IDC and the Department of Minerals Resources has put together an early stage fund, which is a very welcome um development in the space. It's only 300 million Rand though, so just a drop in the ocean of what South Africa probably needs. Um and over and above this, um, the PRC, which generally doesn't invest in early stage or mining exploration, has put aside 1.35 billion Rand towards investing in mining projects that are post-feasibility up to and including bankable feasibility because historically the PRC as an institutional investor and investing in behalf of the government employees pension fund, we haven't been able to invest in that space and could only invest in projects that are post-bankable feasibility studies. So I know that this is quite technical, but quite important in the South African context to see that there has certainly been a little bit of movement in the earlier stage space so that they can be further on developments and investing in the later stage projects to bring them into production and into fruition. Certainly, we are open to investing in developed mining projects in terms of our EC Bio Fund. They will look at any project that has a bankable feasibility stage, very much like the banks, um, and that has got off-take agreements and all its licenses in place and obviously makes an attractive investment for the company.

Assheton Stewart Carter:

Thanks very much, Heidi. And you raise a point which you know we we ran these series of podcasts last year, and I think even the year before for the Indaba, and the same problem arises each time is that is early stage um investments into expiration, the junior mining, um, and also the kind of a long-term view of mining seems to be absent in the traditional finances of mining projects. So it's good to hear that there's been some movement, or albeit it sounds quite a small commitment relative to what is needed and what is the um capital allocation more generally. I mean, are we saying that banks are stepping away permanently and organizations like PIC are stepping away permanently from this early stage investment, or are we seeing other models replacing them? And I'm thinking also kind of private equity, which I have some involvement in as well. You read globally that private equity is a little bit out of favor, but on the other hand, there are some more funds arising um now around critical minerals and critical minerals value chain. So maybe you can reflect a little bit on whether there's a little bit of innovation coming in now into the market to meet this challenge that you've identified.

Heidi Sternberg:

Yeah, I think that the the question is is has got two parts to it. Certainly the banks or institutional investors have have never really invested in early stage mining and exploration projects. That has been the realm of your junior miners that are generally listed on the ASX and the TSX, and some of them dual listed on the JSE. But countries like Canada and Australia have got incentives for retail investors to invest into these companies and take a punt on the upside, um, you know, that can be generated by these early stage investors from taking an early stage project up the value curve, which often produces significant returns. From an institutional perspective, and that's where the PRC lies, we never have looked at early stage investments, and banks generally don't look at anything that's very early stage either. As I noted before, they generally will want a bankable feasibility study to be in place, and often those bankable feasibility studies cost hundreds of millions of Rands to get to. So certainly there has definitely been a gap in the market. The banks have historically been the main funders of those projects that do reach bankable feasibility study and then need developmental um um investments to get the holes in the ground and to put up plants and infrastructure and so forth. Um and your question is are those traditional banks stepping away from mining permanently and are they being replaced? I think that they are not stepping away from mining. Um they're just becoming much more selective in what they they focus on. So we have we've seen historically that a lot of the banks said that they wouldn't um fund coal-fired power stations, for instance, um, and some of them even came to the party and said they wouldn't fund coal mines. I know there's been a little bit of a pullback from that, but I do think that banks are now going to be focusing more um specifically on projects that tick more environmental boxes that have got all the ESG parameters in place that are much lower risk. And I think it all comes down to uh a risk mitigation because banks obviously um are very risk averse, um, as are institutional investors, and there are key constraints in South Africa, so such as power constraints, logistics, bottlenecks. We've got long permitting pipelines and social licenses, um, license risks in place in South Africa. So these all need to be priced in and priced in properly before a bank will be looking um at a project. Um and I don't think that ESG's um a side note anymore. I think it's really uh been embedded in any investment framework in South Africa and and globally. Um and most of the large institutional investors globally are now committed to looking at principles-based, responsible investment codes. And um all of these um these ESG integration mechanisms are are integral to any um institution making an investment in a mining company. And and remember, investors in South Africa, maybe not the banks so much, but but more the the companies like um developmental impact investors and companies like the PRC are looking for both uh social and um financial returns. So we look at projects that create jobs, create good jobs that uplift the environment and the and the societies that they operate in that will develop lots of infrastructure around them. And mining companies often tick a lot of those boxes. So, as much as banks in established mining centers are still, uh we still see them being willing to write sizable checks, these are increasingly via green loans and sustainability-linked facilities, um, often focused on decarbonization, energy security, and things like tailings upgrades rather than just looking at pure green field volume growth. Um and that has opened the door to all sorts of um different uh financial vehicles and financial companies stepping into the gap that has been left for your more pure um project development.

Assheton Stewart Carter:

Great, and I want to come on to ESG and responsible investing and response production in just one minute. But um before we do, just going back to the different types of capital coming into the market, um, it sounds like what you're saying is that the the banks and the traditional institutional investors are picking, being very selective and picking the best in class projects once they reach a certain phase um on the value curve. Um, but going back to those earlier stage and perhaps the more risky ones, I mean what I'm noticing is that there are some unconventional investors, such as um the downstream off-takers, for example, are beginning to invest into mines. Um, some of the traders as well are beginning to kind of pair up and gather funds and um investing into mines as well. Do you think those guys are a significant um entry? Um have always been there really, but just not known about, or would you see that they could be in partnership with organizations like yours going forward to get more metals and minerals development um into the pipe?

Heidi Sternberg:

Absolutely. I think they have been there, but in in much smaller quantities than we are seeing at the moment. I mean, almost every um mine or project that's been developed in South Africa at the moment has some sort of streaming or royalty company that's come online or strategic off-takers or even majors. We've seen one of the major mining companies back some of the smaller projects that are being developed in South Africa to secure off-take. And this is a really interesting way to ensure that the projects are fully financed because each of those different um investors has got different risk appetites and different needs. So if you look at something like the PRC or other sovereign wealth funds, for instance, we've got we've got quite close ties with what the South African government is aiming for in terms of the national development plans and the critical mineral strategies and exploration strategies and so forth. So we would like to align ourselves with projects that that cover those mandates. But a lot of those projects often still are lacking funding, and that's where you do see your DFIs coming in, taking equity stakes or strategic off-takers and majors ensuring that there is off-take for their products, because often a company like the PRC will have to have somebody a verifiable company that's going to be signing an off-take agreement with whatever project we are going to be looking at at funding. So that at least then ticks a box there.

Assheton Stewart Carter:

Interesting, yeah. So there is emerging, you know, new potential partnerships and alliances that can be formed, which perhaps haven't been seen before. And we'll come on to, I'll ask a question a little bit about whether they see ESG in the same way as you do. Um, and you know, what's lovely interviewing you is that you are very clearly a practicing advocate for mining as a contributor to sustainable development in your country and more broadly. Do you feel, I have to ask, do you do you feel that some of the signals coming out of Washington and the response from things like the EU regarding deregulation, um, especially on supply chains, is that going to affect the the passion that you have or that you're unable to exercise within your mandate at PIC for sustainable development and ESG practices?

Heidi Sternberg:

Yeah, so I think that there is a lot of noise in the in the market at the moment around this, and certainly the rules are changing. But from a PIC perspective, we have signed up to a number of different institutions, and we we are fully committed to only investing in in projects or in companies that that have ESG um intertwined in their DNA. And we've seen this coming through quite strongly in in most of the, and I'm focused on the South African listed mining companies, all of them, when they are are reporting and their annual results, will bring a strong ESG theme to the table. They are now even reporting separately in terms of having a separate ESG report, which is quite significant. It's hundreds of pages long. It details what each of their different operations is doing in terms of reducing their water usage and their carbon dioxide emissions and all sorts of emissions, air quality, water quality. So I don't think that it's going to disappear overnight. And I still think that it's it's going to be essential, not only from a PRC perspective, but other institutional investors for any project that that is seeking investment to still not only tick the boxes but to really live the principles of what that means. That means taking your the society in which you operate into account, perhaps even looking at um having partnership or equity schemes that that benefit those societies that they operate in, offering good jobs, um highly skilled jobs, especially in now that technology is coming to the fore. And those those kind of things are certainly not just going to drop away because there is a little bit of noise in the market. Um so no, I I do think that that we will still be um definitely looking at all the uh the ESG principles, um, especially for critical minerals like copper, lithium, cobalt, nickel, um, all of those um commodities that are going to be used in supply chains.

Assheton Stewart Carter:

So yeah, so the ESG factors associated with mining um present a potential um market access risk that needs to be managed, I think what you're saying. But in the European Union, the regulations that were to be put in place this year and next year have been pushed back and somewhat um softened, I guess we can say. Um but you think that that doesn't matter? There's still from the individual kind of off-takers and the end users and the parts manufacturers and so on, they'll still want to make sure that their supply chain is de-risked.

Heidi Sternberg:

When Amman is being developed, it should be developed on the best possible principles. And we've seen that renewable energy, even though it is greener than conventional coal-fired power, is now coming in cheaper. So not only are these companies looking at the greenest options, but also the cheapest options. Lining your tailing stand is the right thing to do.

Assheton Stewart Carter:

Right. So a part of the you know, being selective about the project is what you're saying, is it's not a side note that is a part of what a quality project is, and you guys are after quality projects, and in the long term, whatever's whatever noise is going on now, that's not going to change. It's a sticky, it's a sticky requirement, I think is what you're thinking is what what you're saying. Yeah, exactly. One question I do have is you know, one of the risks I think with mining, and that certainly goes to my background for the last 30 years, is around the local license to operate and showing benefits to local communities. And of course, what we're seeing is greater automation at mines, and some of these mines are, you know, 60-70% automated, and there's less need to hire local people. And with Africa, in particular South Africa, 60% of people under 26. Um, it's going to be the fastest growing continent, in fact, the only growing continent in terms of population, um, indigenous population globally. How are mining going to demonstrate that they are benefiting local communities and reduce that risk for investors on mining community disruption?

Heidi Sternberg:

This is a multifaceted answer. Um, number one, young people don't want to go underground in mines anymore. It's just not, you know, the fun thing to do. And you've seen um the mining companies push quite significantly into the technology aspect of mining because that's obviously much more interesting for young people to get involved in. So, yes, mines are going to be much more automated in the future, they're going to be using a lot more technology, and that is where I think that the locals can or the local young people can be uh you know incentivized into joining the mining industry. Um, South Africa, unfortunately, its gold and platinum mines are very narrow reef and very deep, and that doesn't really lend itself to. Technology advancements and automation. So the mining industry in South Africa is still a key employer of low-skilled workers, but that is going to change in the future as mines become much more technologically advanced and automated. And that's certainly, I think, where you're going to be getting, you know, the pool for young people to be joining mining companies historically, and over and above that, obviously, we've seen now in South Africa we've got um black economic empowerment um uh regulations whereby mining companies need to have 26% of the ownership initially held by a black company. A lot of these companies are moving away from just having those partners to having ASOPs that are are are that take the the local communities into account. And all of these um things do go a very long way in uplifting the local communities and ensuring that they do have the social license to operate in the areas that they do.

Assheton Stewart Carter:

No, I'm glad you said that kind of reinforces my kind of view is that we should be looking at when we're sort of assessing the contribution of mining to sustainable development, we should place it in the context of greater industrialization and urbanization of a country, not just around the mine itself or the metal it produces. Um so that's great to hear. So so finally, kind of looking looking forward then, um what sort of financing innovations you you touched on some of them, I think, but what financing innovations do you see in the future over the next five, ten, fifteen years as the industry moves to meet the need for minerals, critical minerals in in particular?

Heidi Sternberg:

One of the m more interesting things that we've been seeing in South Africa is that there's a strong momentum behind sustainability-linked loans or the use of proceeds, green facilities for minesite renewables. Um, a lot of the mining companies have been putting up their own renewable plants just because um of all the load shedding that South Africa's experienced over the last, say, five years. Um another thing that we're seeing is that funding is being phased. Um, a lot of the big projects are now being broken into smaller, sort of modular sizes, um, which makes um investors a lot more comfortable rather than putting in a couple of billion rand all at once. Um they're putting in it's it's a much more phased approach, um, and different investors are coming in at different phases, which is also quite interesting to see.

Assheton Stewart Carter:

Is it now time for the investing community, the investor community to be more prominent and vocal?

Heidi Sternberg:

You're going to find countries that um have that that have got the best permitting systems, that have got security of tenure, um, uh being much more um investable than countries that don't. Even though some countries might have world-class geology, but they but if they've got if they're slow and they've got opaque permitting, etc., etc., you see you're just not going to see the capital flow to those countries. So I think the capital in many ways is ready. The real question is which host communities um are going to be attracting these investments. Um, and I think that a lot could still be done from a South African perspective to improve the investability into mining projects in the country.

Assheton Stewart Carter:

On that very clear um message, I'm sadly gonna have to bring our conversation to a close. Uh I feel we could talk a lot more. It's been very enjoyable talking to you, and thank you so much, um, Heidi Sternberg, for sharing your insights uh with our listeners today. And we look forward to hearing more on those at the Mining and Darber in 2026 in Cape Town next month.

Heidi Sternberg:

Great. Thank you so much for having me on your show.

Assheton Stewart Carter:

And for our listeners, uh, please check out the rest of the special series of Mining and DABA podcasts on the TDI Suits and Boots Podcast channel. And I look forward to seeing you all at the event in February, where you can hear more from Heidi on this topic and other speakers in this series. I'm Ashton Stewart Carter, and thank you for listening.