Livin' on the Edge

Megan Comfort, Director of Business Banking at Nevada State Bank, welcomes Matthew McMurry, Director of Operations at Leading Edge Scaffold, for an in‑depth conversation on leadership, entrepreneurship, and managing large‑scale construction operations. McMurry reflects on his career in the trades and how hands‑on field experience influences his approach to safety, problem‑solving, and team development. He discusses leading high‑risk projects, including complex infrastructure and event builds, scaling a national business without losing culture, and knowing when to empower others to lead. Throughout the episode, McMurry emphasizes humility, accountability, and disciplined decision‑making as cornerstones of effective leadership and long‑term business success.

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Transcript

Welcome Matthew McMurry

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Thank you, and welcome to Through the Door: The Insider's Perspective on Running a Business. I'm Megan Comfort, Small Business Manager at Nevada State Bank. And this is a podcast where we interview business owners and business leaders and get them to share their stories, running companies, overcoming obstacles, and making big decisions. So today I have Matthew McMurray here. He is the owner of Leading Edge Scaffold. It's a national scaffolding business. Most notably, he actually helps facilitate the construction of F1 during the race week that we have in November. So thank you so much for being here.

Scaffolding a Career

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

So we typically start these off just learning more about your origin story, like how you decided or made that, you know, plunge into entrepreneurship starting leading edge.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Yeah, I think my my story is pretty simple, pretty basic. I mean, I started in the field at a young age, uh young 20s, um, and I just worked through the trades. I was uh, you know, digging ditches, uh laying conduit underground. Um I worked as an iron worker, heavy equipment operator, heavy uh high voltage lineman, um, just different trades, and then I got into scaffolding about 22 years ago, and um just kind of it clicked, enjoyed it. Um, and then I just worked my way up through the ranks um and uh just kind of uh became, you know, obviously safety project management uh operations manager. Um in fact City Center was one of my first big jobs that I ran as a project manager. Um that kind of elevated me on the next level of running a sizable job. Um but yeah, then it just I became uh as my career progressed, my niche kind of became clear to me where um I really enjoyed like the fixer. I became the fixer for the board. So the board would take me um and put me in failing branches, and they would stick me in failing branches with a clear directive of either fix them or shut them down, and I enjoyed it, right? And so I traveled a lot to different branches um doing that, and I got the nickname the Grand Reaper.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Oh, that's delightful. Yeah, that's cheerful.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Exactly. But uh just kind of a clear directive of uh find the root uh failures, right? The root cause of the failures, fix it, and um just uh d drive out the problems and and and create a

Problem Solving in the Field

SPEAKER_00 2:34

good structure.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Aaron Powell That's really interesting. What did you learn doing that? Like how did you go about identifying what the problem was and how to fix it?

SPEAKER_00 2:45

So I would just get obviously start from the ground up, right? So I work in the field with the guys and um you learn you learn the most talking to the field, right? And they tell you systematic failures, we don't get this, we don't get that, this truck's broken, everything. So you work from the ground up, and um, you know, I'd take them to dinner, and everybody would kind of be clammed up at first, but once they're they they kind of see that you're there to help them, make your life better, they open up. Um but at the end of the day, you start from the field and you just work your way up to management. And 95% of the time I found was was the leadership, right? It was the people, um, it wasn't the work, it wasn't the the environment, it wasn't the uh the market, it was generally the people or the structure that was causing the problems. And so once you find that problem, you you eliminate it, um, unfortunately, and then you replace it, and then you you build you build the team back.

Identify Management Missteps

SPEAKER_01 3:39

What were some of the main like failures that you kind of saw in the management team? Was it like a lack of understanding of what people needed or kind of that ivory towered method of leadership?

SPEAKER_00 3:51

I think I think probably the biggest um I mean it's ever every every every problem had its own issues, right? It's not one one size fits all, but arrogance was probably the biggest thing. Um Lamb leading lions, I was a constant problem. So the the the educated getting a kid out of college and having try to lead these guys who have years of experience in the field, no education, but a ton of experience, and they just didn't know how to to be a leader. They never were taught that. Super smart, book smart, educated, but just lack leadership skills. And so generally a lamb leading a lion. But I mean, I had one occasion where um a branch manager on his first day showed up to work in shorts. It's it's yeah, it was that was shocking to me, very, very shocking. But that's just the arrogance level of it.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Are you going on vacation? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

That was it. You know, it's like, but um you always eliminate the problems. And as soon as the cancer is gone, it's it's pretty consistent, then the whole team re-energizes and the morale improves and everybody's clicking and working towards a common goal.

First Line Feedback

SPEAKER_01 4:58

So I I love that you talk about working your way from the field up. I think a lot of times I notice when consultants come in or people come in, they're usually like starting with management or management's upset because they're not talking to management and they're talking to the other folks. But there's no better area to identify what might be the problem than the people that are actually doing the work that's being delivered to the client.

The Switch from Employee to Entrepreneur

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

So at that point you started recognizing, okay, I clearly have a knack for being able to turn around, you know, areas to make them profitable and have let make sure that they have more synergy. What was that moment where you're like, I should actually be doing this for myself myself?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

I don't I don't think there was a light bulb moment. I just think I always, you know, I I just wasn't a very good employee, all right? I just needed to be by myself. I mean, you sp you you talked about that in previous podcasts, and it's kind of a common denominator, is it's not that we're bad employees. We just you just it's just you need to be you just need to run your own race and and be on your own. And um it was it was tough for me to be an employee to work underneath somebody else. I needed to be because it I I think I think the biggest thing for me is winning. It's not money, it's not success, it's winning. It's it's the constant wins that it drives me, right? And so I feel personally that um if I'm in charge, uh that would give me the best chance of winning. And it's that's how I feel, and that's how I run the business. It's like, hey, let's we're gonna win just the little wins, right? And they they stack up, but yeah, it wasn't a light bulb moment for me. It was just progressing through the ranks and and I had an opportunity um to buy business, um, built them up to like 200 employees, and uh that went south, and then obviously that's when I came, sat down with you guys, and uh started Leading Edge in 2019.

One Day at a Time: Starting from Scratch

SPEAKER_01 6:53

So when you started that, did you have a clear vision of what it would turn into, or was it something that you just kind of focused one day at a time?

SPEAKER_00 7:02

It was one day at a time. I it it's like you you you always want to be the biggest and best, but um starting from scratch is very humbling, right? You're alone, you're scared, um, every day is a challenge, right? Um and so you don't look at the big picture at that time, you're just you're in survival mode. Um and at that time you're not looking to be the biggest and you know on the West Coast or the best. You're just you're you're you're just wanting to make it, right? And the first three years, you're in survival mode. And um you just try to make every single decision, a good decision, don't make bad decisions and focus on the day-to-day operations.

What To Focus on as a New Business Owner

SPEAKER_01 7:44

So tell me about those first few years. Like did you focus primarily on sales? Did you make some really important key hires in the beginning to help you with the business?

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Yeah, I think I think as a business owner for me, um, because I'm highly critical of myself, right? So I think for me, I always like doubted myself. And then for me, sitting with, and this is what I'd probably advise for any young person wanting to come and start their own business, is sit down with other business owners. And what you'll find out is there's really you you have a neat a unique skill and you just need passion and you want to win and you just want to be successful. That's all you really need. But what I what I end up finding sitting with all these business owners is it it's uh my my personality isn't good and it's not bad. It's just who I am. It's just it's just how I'm cut. And

Hire the Skills You Lack

SPEAKER_00 8:37

and what I end up finding out is you hire the the the personality traits that I lack. And so that's what I focused on. So I'm not good at sales, I'm not a good talker. Um, and so I hil hired the salespeople. And um you know, I'm I'm an operations person. So I hired, you know, the financial team and and and and I just kind of focus on operations because I I feel personally that's where the business is is won and lost is operations.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Well, yeah, it's funny how a lot of times people will just focus on the sales first and rather than the ultimate part of the experience, which is the operational aspect, but that is such a difficult part of the business. It's hard to master the client experience aspect of things, like just kind of goes by the wayside and it can really cripple a business when they're first starting

Retaining Loyal Employees

SPEAKER_01 9:27

out. When when did you get to the point where you started running teams kind of throughout the United States? And how challenging was that to kind of mobilize like projects that you've done on the East Coast when you're here or in Washington when you're yeah, I mean it's it's our our structure, our team.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

So um these these guys have been with me for 20 plus years, right? And so um I just have a very loyal group of guys that have worked with me, you know, followed me from company to company, and um, you know, I'm I'm very close to them and um they they they give it everything they have every single day. And um it's very humbling to be around the the guys I have surrounded myself with. And so um I I feel I was holding on to too much at first, right? Managing too much, and then

Trusting Your Team When You're Not There

SPEAKER_00 10:17

obviously, you know, after my accident last year, it was kind of a rude awakening. It was a good awakening, but it kind of really forced me to to step to the side and and everybody stepped up and ran the business when I was absent, right? So um that really taught me a lot. Like, hey, I don't have to be there every day. I don't have to make all these calls, they're gonna make good decisions. And so you just trust your team, and it was a very, very good experience for me.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

Aaron

An Experience To Put Things Into Perspective

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Ross Powell I know. Let's talk about that because you you are very hands-on and very involved in your business, at least that's how I've known you, is being someone that wants to make sure that you understand every aspect of the business. Um but what happened last year that kind of forced you to take a step back and realize that you had to look about the structure of your company in a different way?

SPEAKER_00 11:09

So um I I I mean, I guess that's two it's twofold, right? So the accident happened. I was skydiving and my deployed my uh my chute and it wrapped around my leg and got a pretty cool picture of it on GoPro. I could show you. It'd make you sick in your stomach.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

I'm going to see that.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

It took it took my leg um upright, my my foot was pointed that way. But so the the the chute wrapped around my leg and I was going vertically, you know, upside down, entangled in your chute. And I mean, if you ever know anything about skydiving, when you're tangled, it's it's pretty much certain death, right? So I was able to reach up, get untangled in time, uh, come under uh full canopy and then land. But in the meantime, I um just tore all ligaments in my knee, all four of them. And so I have all you know, four cadaver ligaments in my knee, my right knee. So I've been working my way back, but uh at the same time just going through the surgeries and the process, right? The team got together and stepped up. Um I was absent. I was not around. And um they stepped up and we didn't miss

Letting Go Through Recovery

SPEAKER_00 12:12

a beat.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Was that scary for you? Did you think about your business at all while you were kind of fighting through rehab and recovering?

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Yeah, of course, it's on your the front of your mind, right? And you know, I was in and out and uh surgery and back to work as soon as possible, right? And working from home and um just being as as active as I can, but not nearly as involved as I used to be. So um, yeah, it's I'm very I'm very outgoing. So for me to sit indoors behind a computer and not be able to be as active as I was was was mentally hard too. That was that that was the struggle as well. But I think on the business level, it just forced me to trust the team, really forced me to trust the team, and they shined.

Every Leader Has a Limitation

SPEAKER_00 12:59

And then I also noticed that you know I've worked under some pretty phenomenal leaders in my career, cut my teeth under some pretty good leaders, and um one thing I've realized is every leader has a limitation. I know mine very well, and I knew that I was gonna grow leading edge to a certain extent, and um I anticipated where I was gonna grow it, and once I I saw uh the projectory of where we're gonna be, and I knew I needed to bring on an executive team. And I've talked to Jim, you know, about it, and Jim Jim liked the idea, um, and so brought on a CEO and a COO and a CFO, and um I took a step back and I'm the director of operations now, and so I work for them and they just can't fire me.

Building an Executive Management Team

SPEAKER_01 13:47

That's fun.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

So, what were some of the qualities or things that you looked at to fulfill those high-level seats for your company? Did they have field experience? Was that something that was very important for you?

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Or yeah, I mean, all of them um absolutely have field experience, right? Very, very important for me to be operationally minded. But um our COO, um, he he came from the sphere. He ran the sphere, right? So um I actually worked for him. He I was a customer to him. Uh he ran the sphere. Um brilliant guy. I was very, very impressed with how he managed uh the job. And so um he he's he's he knows everybody in town, very connected, brilliant, brilliant mind, and understands construction very well, right? Um it also understands personalities and people, right? And and people respect him, and I love that about him. So um he he doesn't play in small ponds, he's a big fish, right? And that's that's very important to me. Um our CEO, um, brilliant mind, one of the smartest people that I know, but I grew up with him at a young age. He and I grew up together. And so he ran um, he was running one of the largest scaffold companies um suppliers uh in in the U.S. and actually globally, right? So but he oversaw all the U.S. And so um, you know, I he I'm very, very lucky to have him. And it's it's one of the things where you're talking to these individuals and you're throwing it out there and like with and they're entertaining it and you're shocked, like, whoa, having somebody of that caliber come on, it's very humbling. And so um, of course you don't act like that, you're in negotiations, right? But yeah, it's very humbling. You're like, wow, this is this could happen. And yeah, and and they came on, and of course, our CFO has been with me for for a while, and you know her Amy. Um, and she's absolutely great at what she does. So um very, very, very lucky, and they're taking they're taking the business to an all another level. And it's fun to see, it's

Never Hire Two of the Same People

SPEAKER_00 15:44

fun to be part of.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yeah. What about team synergy? Because you talked about, you know, identifying and understanding what your limitations are a leader as a leader, and identifying just fulfilling those other characteristics that will make a well-rounded team. What are some of the things that you think about or do to ensure that you have that team synergy?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

I I have a couple rules in business that I follow. It's like my Bible. Um one of them is never hire two of the same people, right? And so that's very important to me. Um, diversity is key, right? And I don't want two like-minded people. So their personalities are different, the way they process things are different, and so we collaborate and come up with the best idea, and that's very important to me. But that that's always a concern. You have, you know, very strong-minded, opinioned people getting in a room. Are they gonna that's that's a concern, is are they gonna get along? Um, and it it's it's working, it's working great. Everybody respects each other. Um, and we might have it out every once in a while, but at the end of the day, we're we have a common goal and everybody's pushing hard towards it. It's it's fun to be part of. It's

Honing in on Communication Styles

SPEAKER_00 16:55

very exciting.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Yeah, I I mean, I know that I've studied and learned a lot about communication styles, you know, kind of growing up in the bank and really uh moving into leadership roles. I've recognized that that is definitely important. So I love reading different types of communication styles. And I love learning about the communication style that other people have. It helps me figure out how to communicate

Seeking Diversity of Thought From Mentors

SPEAKER_01 17:20

with them. I like that you talk about diversity because that's not something that I would say many business owners think about. A lot of times they just want to find them, right? They just want to replicate themselves and other folks rather than figuring out how can I find something that complements me. Yeah. What were some of the, I guess, mentors in your life that taught you the importance of having things like that?

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Um, I mean, I've I've worked under some pretty key people and they worked on a global scale, right? So um you know, one one gentleman, he was Scottish and worked in the UK, and how they operate in the UK is very structured, meeting after meeting, and they'll have meetings on those meetings. Um Americans are different, right? Um we kind of shoot from the hip and just go with it. But I mean, i i I've I've worked underneath certain leaders and I've tried to repeat the good and not repeat the bad, right? And um I've always kind of kept a diary and I I I like to write, I write a lot. So um always kind of document certain skills that different leaders I worked

Knowing When To Step Down

SPEAKER_00 18:24

under. And it's it's always in the forefront of my mind of of what they did that was good and what was their demise. And generally um the demise is pretty consistent that I've always seen. It's just they're they're not able to release control fast enough or soon enough or at the right time. Um they've grown the business to a certain level, but sometimes you gotta take a step back and hire somebody who's smarter and better than you to run the business. And that was always um a concern of mine of when is that time to step back and let somebody else run your business, because that's what they do, right? Um and that was always a concern of mine, because if you do it too soon, you don't, you know, there the there's there's issues there, liquidity and problems of of just handing something the problems over, but and you do it too late, uh it's it's too late at that time. So it's it's always a struggle, that balance of finding the right timing of handing the business over. But I've I've I've had a lot of outreach people call me and ask me that question. And I think a lot of business owners are like, that's very interesting that you would hand over the business and let somebody else run it and take a take a lesser role. Um but it it's to me, it was it was just a a simple decision, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Aaron Ross Powell

Acting Strategically To Accomplish Goals

SPEAKER_01 19:40

But I also think you are unique in the sense of you are a very involved uh business owner that also understands the financial metrics and aspects of your company. That's a a thing that I think is a point of contention or nervousness or stress for other business owners. They don't like to strategically plan and quantify it with financial projections. So they don't like to see, okay, where can I take this business? But then systematically, how do I accomplish those numbers that I'm putting on paper? I feel like that's a unique skill that you have always started with. You've started with reverse engineering the plan through saying, I want to get here every year. Like I want to see my business grow here, or there's these impending jobs. I know what that's gonna, how that's gonna impact my top line, how that's gonna impact my expenses and my and my bottom

Small Business vs. Big Business

SPEAKER_01 20:34

line. Can't how did you learn to pay attention to that side of the equation? Because I do think that's what positioned you so well to take the business where you have taken it, and then also identify the right players to take over the reins.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yeah, I think when I was um when I was kind of progressing through my career, I worked for public tr publicly traded companies, bigger companies, where they cared more about the shareholders than the customers, right? Um that's a different when you're working off of a accrual PL, that's a different mindset. Owning your own business, a small business, you're working off of cash, right? Liquidity that's in the bank, cash in, cash out. So you're no longer on a cruel basis, you're on a cash basis. And I feel it's a complete different mindset. And yes, at the end of the day, you do gotta look at the PL every single day, every single month, and analyze are are we making money here, are we making money there, and and and and run off that budget um and forecast that, but at the same time, small business is a completely different animal than big business. And um it and I've I've been mentored by large business owners and they've always said, Well, you need to do this, you need to do that, and it's the reality check, like, oh I'd love to, but you can't. Right? It just you can't afford it. Um and um I think it forces you, it's survival. You have to constantly look and forecast. What each job's going to do and the cash is coming in. And yeah, I think that's where you know we've had long conversations, including Jim, about certain jobs coming in and um where we're going to be at. But I

Have a Business Plan To Measure Progress and Goals

SPEAKER_00 22:13

think I did I always look back and analyze what I write and my because I write a business plan every year, right? My the the year and goals and what I'm gonna be doing for next year. And I always like to go back and analyze and they're pretty they're pretty accurate, they're pretty close. And so you after you do it for so many years, you you kind of stay within your understanding of your capacity and what you're able to do, and you just trust it. And it's also it sets goals, minor goals, micro goals, right? And to achieve this month. And once you're falling a little behind, you kind of take a little bit more risk to get back in in the grain.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Yeah. I I'm kind of at that point with my uh family business that we have where we're realizing we need, in order to take it to the next level, we need to educate ourselves and get more training in certain elements so that we can become better operators, better business owners.

Know Where Your Business Provides Value

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Is that what is, I guess, a word of advice that you have for somebody that's really in that sweet spot of I'm I'm doing it, I'm in the grind, and I'm growing my business, but the growth is maybe anemic, and I really need to figure out how to elevate it and get it to that next level because they're almost feeling like they're plateauing. Was there ever a point where you felt like that in your business?

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Um I mean, you always I always feel I'm underachieving, right? And it's uh I I feel like I sh we should be bigger and doing better than we are. But um, I mean, looking back, what we've accomplished is is I'm excited, right? And I gotta look at I gotta look at the positive, but I'm always focusing on you know the next year and where can we improve. But um for for me, it's I guess it's just a different industry. So we we focus on like large jobs, massive jobs, technical jobs, high-risk jobs. And um we've we've created a niche, our that's that's who we are. That's that's leading edge scaffold, and that's what in encompass everything we do. It's it's it's built in our DNA, and if we're it's a trusted name in the industry, if you if there's a tough job out there, you're gonna call us. Complex job, you're gonna call us. And so we like those bigger jobs, and there's no short of them

Don't Scale Too Quickly

SPEAKER_00 24:34

right now. So it to scale it for us, um we don't actually technically go out and try to find the work. The work

Sharing Knowledge Through the Business Community

SPEAKER_00 24:42

comes to us, and it's about managing too much or not enough. Um and you always you can't I we just don't want to grow too fast, right? Um and we're we're growing at a rate that's comfortable. I think we've doubled our revenue every single year. Um and uh you just don't want to grow too fast.

Reinvent Your Business To Prevent Plateauing

SPEAKER_00 25:00

But if I could give advice to the younger um business owners are starting, I mean you if if if you're if you feel like you're plateauing, then you gotta reinvent yourself, right? You gotta figure out and and sit with other uh business owners and saying what have you done? But I would say reinvent yourself and try to set new goals. Maybe it's a different product. And I think like, for example, the in and out menu is very simple, very basic, right? It works for them. But there's also some uh fast food places that are what doesn't work, right? And they have to reinvent themselves. And you're constantly trying to reinvent themselves and market a new um a line or strategy of of getting a different branding out there.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yeah, I like that you talk about picking the brains of other entrepreneurs and how helpful that can be for any one business owner because business owners are unique. They curate culture, they create experience, but they are kind of off on an island by themselves and don't necessarily have the time. Was there like a group or an organization that you kind of tapped into, or how did you find those business owners that you were able to bounce ideas off of and talk to about these things?

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Just being in the industry for so many years, I I know um it's it's I always sat down with people I respected, right? Um, for example, Dielko Cranes in town, right? When it comes to asset management, talk to Dielco. He has a lot of assets. I mean, his his balance sheet is pretty impressive, all those cranes. And he's built quite the name for himself. Um so I sat down with the CFO and um, you know, they they welcome you in and we talk and uh just trying to understand depreciation and how to depreciate and you know where to depreciate and um just the multipliers on any kind of assets you you buy. And when you're done depreciating, then what, right? Do you sell the asset? Do you go buy new or you just keep it on your books? So all these questions you you sit there and sometimes I leave, I'm like, oh, I should ask this. And so um, you know, the the the owner of Pinta, you know, um just people that have you look up to and respect, and you sit down with them and they're they're eager to give you the information and their knowledge, and uh it's it's very exciting to sit with people like that, like-minded people and people that I respect.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

That reminds me of Carlos. It was it's a earlier episode that we had. Uh he owns a HVAC company out here, but he mentioned you'd be so surprised by how willing your vendors and your own customers, like the businesses that you work with, will open up and like just give you some advisement or talk to you about certain questions that you might have as a business, because if they help you and you're connected to their supply chain, then you're helping everyone along the way, um, which is important. And I agree, I don't think a lot of people recognize or know

Planning the Future of Your Business Without You

SPEAKER_01 27:59

that.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Going back to your skydiving accident, that's terrifying. I can't believe that you almost died. That's I'm so glad that you're sitting here right now. Um, but did you think about the succession planning outside of like I need to hire some folks, and if I'm gonna take this business to the next level, I need to understand that it's not gonna be all on my shoulders. I have to find folks that are going to help me succeed. But then also like life insurance and the succession planning aspect of things. Did you start thinking about that?

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Yeah, I did. I mean, it was uh it at first it was it didn't affect me, but I noticed like six months later it kind of really started settling in. Like, wow, I'm very, very, very lucky to be here, right? Seconds away from dying. And um, you're working through um just the mental aspect of of you know what what am what am I doing here? What what's my goal? And is this is this who I am? And so um, how do you want to be remembered? And um, you know, all that stuff goes through your mind. It's pretty standard, I would imagine, right? But um I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Yeah, I hope I don't know. I hope I don't go through that.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Yeah, I mean you start thinking just you know, what what what are you gonna leave your kids? And and so yeah, I moved a lot of assets to family trust and did did things differently. Um was a little bit more aggressive of setting up things like that, absolutely, but more or less just just the entire company um growing it, right? Continuing to grow it, but also bringing on the the executive team um to manage it and take it to the next level.

How Big is Too Big for Your Business to Grow?

SPEAKER_00 29:37

And we're we're probably in the next three years gonna double our business and eventually get to about triple where we're at right now. And I don't want to I don't want to get any bigger than that. That's that's kind of the sweet spot right there, is triple our size right now. Because what what what I enjoy, what I truly enjoy with what I do is the relationship I have with my employees. That's exciting. And if we ever get to a size where I don't have a relationship and employees are just numbers, I have zero interest, and that is not fun to me. I I would not enjoy coming to work every single day. So I as a plateau for me, it would be get to a level where I know everybody still. I could still at company parties sit with their wives and kids and hang out and enjoy them. And um if I ever get to a level where I just don't know my employees, like the undercover bosses, you know, that show, it drives me nuts. Like, how you got how are you not noticeable right now?

SPEAKER_01 30:36

Yeah, like no one knows who you are. I don't know if that's really true. You know what I mean? I'm like, I'm pretty sure they probably they've seen pictures or newsletters or something coming out there.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

That's crazy though, but I mean I can't imagine me standing in front of our employees, they'd be like, Yeah, Matt, what are you doing? Um Yeah, I mean, I just I that does not sound exciting to me to be to the size of where you just don't know your employees, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:00

And

Connecting With Your Employees

SPEAKER_01 31:01

and well, especially in your world. I mean, honestly, not just in your world. I I can actually translate this to any one particular industry that has people a part of it, um, which is most businesses. And there is something really special about being connected to the employees that you have. I know working for our organization, you know, being a regional institution, very, very large, you would think, you know, upwards of $90 billion in assets, our chairman would not necessarily know who we are. And he still makes it a point to reach out to different employees, no matter what level they're at, and just say, good job on doing this. You know, I appreciate what you're doing here. Or it's so funny because everyone thinks it's a prank call. They're like, this is spam or something, this can't be this guy. But he does make that a part of his culture and a part of his business practice, which it matters to people. You want to work for people that are like that, that put people first and that care about individuals. Yeah. I think you probably saw that too with all of those failures that starting with the people, that it really is about making sure that they're

Shifting Gears Back To Your Passion

SPEAKER_01 32:15

taken care of. Yeah. Is that why you took just that director of operations and kind of made that your own so that you're focusing on the part that you enjoy most?

SPEAKER_00 32:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

I I started getting to a point in leading a scaffold, is I just wasn't really clicking, wasn't I mean, I was behind the computer all day. Just it's not who I am. Um so yeah, it was time for me to kind of get back in the field and that's where I love. I love being in the field, love being in front of the guys. Um it's it's it's a it's an alarm every day, it's an adrenaline rush every day. I love love managing jobs and and operations, but um, yeah, I mean that was the main focus is being back in front of the guys. So I I mean I absolutely love our field. I mean, I adore them, they're the salt of the earth. Um and it's it's you know they're they're they're good family men, husbands, um, they they show up every single day, work their butts off, go home, and it's just uh the the pride they put in the work is is very, very, very exciting and it's fun to be around and it's contagious. Um so I have a very good relationship with our field, um all field staff, and um I I hope they respect me as much as I respect them, right?

Nurturing a New Generation of Trade Workers

SPEAKER_01 33:30

What about the trades like the work shortage that's potentially happening as far as like the pipeline of workers? Is that something that you think about in your field of not being able to find enough folks? Do you have that problem?

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Yeah, so it's a constant problem. I think uh one of your podcasts, Jared, was talking about that, right? And um it's it's a constant problem is the labor shortage. But we um we we we bring in a lot of young guys. We are unions, so they they come through the ranks and they they go through the apprenticeship program, but we do develop young guys. So we bring these apprentices on, we develop one. And a lot of our top journeyman foreman do move on to other companies, unfortunately. Um they're you know, they're they're just great at what they do and they've done very well and they've got an offer they can't refuse, and very proud of them, right? And I think that's the biggest thing. It's just it's a it's like a revolving door. We develop, develop, we grow these guys, and then um we we we keep on we keep a lot of them, um, but the top guys generally kind of move on because they're just off for something we can't we can't counter, right? And that's good for them. I always I'm I'm I'm happy for them, proud of them. But yeah, it's it's a constant bringing these apprentices and constantly developing them, and um it is fewer and far between. It's it's i I am seeing a shortage. Um you don't have the same caliber of workers. Um these data centers are sucking up a lot of guys right now, um, and it's not gonna slow down. And it's it's now it's a bidding war on what you're offering employees in regard to per diemes and and cost per day. So um it's just that's that's the kind of the driving force right now is these data centers are really sucking a lot of

Trade Worker Generational Gaps

SPEAKER_00 35:19

labor up.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

Yeah. What are some of those traits that you see that are different in the generational workforce of you know, the guys that are older, been doing it a long time, versus like the younger people? I hear different schools of thought in this area of like, are they are the younger folks way more demanding on certain things that they want versus you know, other people that have been in the the business for a long time?

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Yeah, I think I think I was told that too. Like, wow, you're demanding you know, when I was young too. So I think every k young kid is demanding. They come in and they think they're the best at everything. And I think it's uh i even though we always look back and um we weren't that way.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

You know, we were so much cooler than the younger folks.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Yeah. I mean every every young kid that comes in is the best at what they do and they try to boss everybody around and they you have to humble them. But at the same time, yeah, you're working on a crew, it's physically demanding, and I think that's I understand what they're going through, right? I was in the field. I understand what it feels like to be in 20 degree weather and you got icicles on your beard and you're standing on the flight deck of a DDG and you can't feel your feet and you're ready to puke because you're so cold. I understand that that feeling of working 300 feet in the air, a cantilever and a stabbing a leg, right? Um but at the same time, you know, these these younger kids, it's it's just a humbling experience. They they they they're they're cocky, they're arrogant, but then when you put them out there, it's they they get broken pretty easy. And what we do is we're our industry is very physically demanding, right? So um you get humbled pretty quickly. And um so it's a little different generational gap between other industries. For us, it's very physically demanding. So if there is somebody that's kind of chirping a little too much or or or demanding too much, it's it's it's a it's a quick fix. Just stick them out there and you'll be crying at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Go out to the cold weather. Hang out there for a few hours and then come back and let

Managing Generational Differences

SPEAKER_01 37:26

me know how you feel. Um what about you know just the generational gap on people training other younger people? Do you ever see that dynamic shift as far as like challenges with having that many different generational pieces in one particular company? Because this is the first time that they say there's like upwards of five plus different levels of generations all working in the same environment together because people are not retiring, and then you have younger folks kind of coming in through the ranks and then everything else sandwiched in between. Do you ever see that being a challenge managing that in the field? Or is that like not a problem?

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Yeah, for us it's a hierarchy, right? Um, and you if if you're if you're new to the industry, if you're younger, um you're going to work underneath somebody who's senior, and it's a it's a ratio, you know, it's a two-to-one ratio. So you got two journeymen to one apprentice, and um you're forced to work under these underneath these guys. And so um, yeah, I I I do see a a gap there between what's coming in and what's what's what's the the the guys that are still working, but again, our our industry is very physically demanding, and so you don't see a lot of um older workers still building scaffold, right? Your body's breaking down at that time, and um so i i it's it's I guess it's it's hard to answer that question because of our industry. Um it's just so physically demanding. So I do believe everybody has their shelf life on what we do. It's everybody's body's gonna give out at some

Industry Collaboration

SPEAKER_00 38:59

point.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

Yeah. What about friends in the industry? Do you have other industry meetups, if you will, with other folks that do a similar thing or in the same business as you, just to kind of get a pulse on what's happening in the economy or what headwinds might be coming your way?

SPEAKER_00 39:20

Yeah, absolutely. I I do talk to to several um business owners, scaffold business owners in the industry. Um and you know, we don't meet up. We we we constantly talk and um share ideas and share thoughts or new products or you try this product out. So yeah, it's it's a collaboration. I think there's also some competitors I don't talk to. But yeah, I think there's there's competitors that you talk to and share ideas with, absolutely, and collaborate with. And even um when you know they're they're hurting on some manpower, help them out, right? Because at some point I'm gonna need help

Doing Right by the Customer

SPEAKER_00 39:56

too.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Yeah, I remember hearing that story last time I visited your office. Um, your dad was just saying how you are the type of guy that if you can't do something for a customer, then you're absolutely going to tee them up to the next person that is available, regardless if they're a competitor or not. You're just always gonna do right by people. Yeah. What do you think how do you foster that in maybe an industry where you're a business owner and you don't know that if that exists or you don't have that yet? Because there's power and understanding through a community of folks that you can talk to. It could be limited. You don't have to open up your books to your competitor, but understanding the challenges that you're facing that might be similar.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Um I mean, at the end of the day, you you you have to do right by your customers. Their success is tied to your success, right? No matter what, you always have to make them successful, period. Um and if you're if they're successful, then you get repeat business. And repeat business is obviously the best business. So um in regard to communicating that to the employees, I think they just naturally pick that up, right? To competitors, um, yeah, you don't I don't I don't I don't share obviously I mean products. Um they do call, we do share, hey I saw this on on on you put posted online, what is that product and you share it. I'm not gonna share the design or drawings or but I will tell them what product it is and where I got it and who to talk to and stuff like that. So um but yeah, I mean at the end of the day, um customer success is very, very, very important to us. It's kind of what drives

Tradesperson Training and Turnover

SPEAKER_00 41:37

us.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

You I mean you talked about in earlier in the podcast just how many new folks that you have coming in through the union and things. What does your training process look like? Because it sounds like at some point you do have that level of turnover, and so you're constantly having new people in. Is that a concern that you have in your business, or how have you been able to tighten that up?

SPEAKER_00 42:02

So the the the newer guys coming in, obviously the the union does training as well, right? Um but the newer guys they they have to work underneath the senior people, um a senior person. So they're not given a harness, they're not given certain aspects, they're not allowed to climb on scaffold, they have to be on the ground, they have to work with their hands um with the material. Um and once their body is capable of enduring the physical labor, then we'll give them a harness and they could start climbing the scaffold. So there's there's different different levels we allow them to uh to escalate on on building scaffold. Um we just

Fear of Heights?

SPEAKER_00 42:38

don't take somebody off the street, uh a young cubby, and put them out there, put them a harness and say, hey, climb scaffold. Um generally what I've seen is these younger guys, once they start getting at heights, their body's shut down. Um I've had guys where we had to bring a crane over and um crane them off because he literally was talking to me, he's just couldn't move his legs, his body shut down because the height, right? So when you're working at heights, it's really strange. People don't think they have a fear of heights until you're actually up there and then your body hits you and your body goes out and you can't get down. So that's always a concern of ours, right? Is putting people in a position where you're gonna that they're gonna fail or they're gonna cause harm. So you you it's baby steps, right? And just pr progress them into the exposure. And once they give you that warm and fuzzy, that they're not gonna hurt themselves or hurt somebody else, and they could escalate to the next level.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Oh my god, yeah. I I'm thinking about all the ships that I've seen in like those shipping yards and stuff that have scaffolding on them, like the you know, the military ships like on Coronado Island and stuff like

How High Can You Scaffold?

SPEAKER_01 43:40

that. How high do people typically have to go up? Is it just uh scaling whatever the structure is? Like it could be endless?

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Yeah, it's endless. I mean, we've done I've done scaffolding 1,100 feet in the air, cantilevered out. I mean, it's it's there's really no limitation.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

What type of training do they do? Is there any like VR? training now so that you can simulate how far no I mean it's a different when you're working at that height um you don't you're not putting cubbies up there it's all senior um employees people have done that before people you trust um I like to get out there I think the one those the high risk jobs I think those are fun

No Job is Ever the Same

SPEAKER_01 44:17

but um yeah I mean you you you do it's not so much training it's the same product same processes it's just at a different environment and I think that's why I really love what we do is every day is new um no no same job is is the same right and even though the Navy boats that we do work on you know the flight decks are always the same masks are the same um but on the commercial side it's it's something new every single day yeah I know I think about that guitar that's going up right now um on the strip and how crazy that's gonna be scale that unique

Building a Reputation in Your Industry

SPEAKER_01 44:56

situation. How did you end up building that reputation of doing those complex, more complicated jobs? Was it just everyone said no and you're like, you know what, we can figure this out?

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Yeah I I guess um I mean I guess it came from just me coming through the trades, right? So as an iron worker um you're you just have a different mindset, you know, high voltage different mindset. So I think I've um worked in different trades and I learned different aspects of different industries. And so um I like the create creative aspect of building the scaffold or coming up with a a design that nobody else has thought of uh problem solving that's exciting to me. So if a hundred jobs going on I'm focusing on one or two or three right and the team's running the re rest and generally the

Working With Formula 1

SPEAKER_00 45:51

the handful of jobs I'm running or focusing on or designing are like the complex job. Like for example F1 um that was a very complex design right the we had to work around the public and it was constant meetings with hey let's just you know build this bridge and you know put the tower here and here. It's like nope can't do that because that's a gas station there or public right away. And so we were constantly submitting drawings and designs and manipulating um around the public or uh private property and it was constant design changes and that's exciting to me right trying to work through diversity and um ultimately we we figured it out and first year we had to do some design changes second year and third year. But um the F1's great to work with great great client very exciting everybody over there's um it's it's been so good for the city.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

Yeah I I don't like hearing the bad the bad the neck I don't I don't feel like there's as much bad talk about it now. The first year yeah I definitely heard some negativity around the traffic and stuff but to your point like Lori Nelsoncraft was on a former episode and she she brought up you know in context like we're technically a three year startup. Like we yes are a company that's been around for a long time but here in Las Vegas our flagship that we have our home like we are figuring this out and we're figuring out rapidly and we're making huge strides to make it bigger and better. But we were we are a startup and so when you think about it in that context you're like that actually makes sense. Like you're never going to nail it right out the gate.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

No. But they've done a good job so Lori's awesome Lori Nelson. Yeah she's awesome. But it's also F1 it's the it's the first race street race that's in a democratic country. So all the other street races they have it's they come to private property and say hey you're closing your doors for you know and here you can't do that, right? You have to work with the public you have to work with the private properties and these business owners and uh navigate around um to just just the public. And um that's I I think it's a huge huge um shot in the arm to the economy here here in Nevada. So and that's why we don't have income tax.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_00 48:09

It's strictly for events like this.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

Yeah the economic impact that that event has um is pretty it's it's very significant. And I hope it just continues and it continues to get better. I know that they just recently started a procurement division too to kind of encompass more um more uh local businesses and involving more local businesses participating in in F1 although I think they do a fantastic job with it now. But um

Stay Humble

SPEAKER_01 48:36

okay well this is my last question for you but what is a guiding principle that you have in business or in life that you would want to share with listeners?

SPEAKER_00 48:46

I mean just stay humble. Humility is probably one trait that I learned from my father and um it's kind of embedded in me and um you know obviously it's just stay humble. Like when I was in the field I I always had Steve Jobs commencement speech in my hard hat um and he says stay humble stay foolish right and so um that's kind of I always led by is stay humble.

Thank You Matthew McMurry

SPEAKER_01 49:11

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

Yes so stay humble folks and thank you for tuning in to Through the Door the Insider's Perspective on running a business