Episode 23: Redefining Masculinity

Welcome back to Not Safe for Brunch! In this episode, we’re unpacking toxic masculinity — what it looks like, how it shows up in our relationships, and how we can move toward something better: modern masculinity.

With stories, and real talk, Amber, Coralie, and Vicki explore how society’s expectations of what it means to "be a man" are shifting, and why that matters for everyone.

💡 Spoiler: There’s nothing sexier than a man who empties the garbage without being asked.

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Transcript

Vicki: [00:00:00] Welcome to Redefining Masculinity. As a woman, I've had countless conversations with brothers, friends, partners, and even strangers about what it means to be a man today.

In this episode, we're diving deep into the complex layers of modern masculinity and its counterpart toxic masculinity. These aren't just men's issues. They affect all of us.

Coralie: Welcome to Not Safe for Brunch. In this podcast, we're here to bring sex insight and real world education to the table unapologetically. Think about it as having those important, unfiltered brunch conversations with your closest friends about sex relationships and everything in between. With over 55 years of experience combined in the intimacy industry, helping individuals and couples focus on breaking down barriers.

Reducing shame and empowering people to embrace their desires and [00:01:00] relationships with confidence. Hi, I'm Cor Lee. I live in the Vancouver area. I'm a married mama, two half empty nesting, one in one out, and my secret power is I love a good rabbit hole. I love digging deep and finding the truth or the root cause of a situation.

Amber: And I'm Amber. I live in Ontario. I'm married. I'm a mom and a gma. And an unapologetic quality of mine is I weed through the fluff, and I get to the point. 

Vicki: I love it. I am Vicki. I'm in Manitoba. I'm divorced, and I'm reentering the relationship space. I'm a mom to two grownups and my magic is making meaningful connections and relationship, which of course creates trust.

Okay, so before we dive into it, it's always important to define things in what we're talking about. So let's get clear on the terms. So, toxic masculinity is that praises dominance, emotional suppression, and aggression as [00:02:00] manly, whereas modern masculinity is an evolving concept that values vulnerability, empathy, and authenticity.

Aren't the more modern masculine men, like way hotter anyways.

Whoa, whoa.

Amber: I mean, it depends what you.

Coralie: Well, I just mean that personality, I don't mean like in physical appearance, but I mean when someone, is that like. Comfortable in their masculinity that they have no problem being empathetic and expressing feelings. Like, I think that's a turn on, and I don't necessarily mean in a sex way, but you're going to just see that as someone who is more, someone that you would want to be around, get to know, you know, even as a friendship, it's a personality bonus, you know?

Vicki: Personality bonus. I like that.

Coralie: Mm-hmm.

Vicki: know, I think that as I get older, the more. I appreciate some real modern masculinity, the, the softer [00:03:00] side. I think that men hold a really strong position in a lot of the places in their lives, and I think that they need a place to know that they're safe and can decompress too.

like. I love men. I love all kinds of men. I see the value in every one of the personality styles, but I think that the one that as a woman who is aging and dating. I appreciate a masculine man who can. Have that softer side, right?

So in my life I definitely have seen, men take on many different rules, as I have been in a few marriages. A couple for sure. And we know it's the going joke. It's okay guys. But I do. Think that what I have witnessed, especially recently with friends with younger children now, I see men in softer roles with their kids. And I'm not saying we let our children get away with everything. I'm not that parent either, but [00:04:00] just saying to really recognize them as a living, breathing, emotional human being and allowing them the opportunity to emote. I don't know about you, but there is nothing sexier than that, and. Hold my beer,

Amber: I feel like sometimes I have that toxic. In myself. , So for me it's like, if a man's too emotional,

Vicki: Mm.

Amber: ick, don't,

Vicki: Oh, that's really interesting.

Amber: I appreciate the dominance. Let's be real.

Vicki: say more Amber Taylor.

Amber: Just tell me what to do. I don't wanna.

Vicki: That's fair. That's fair. But that, I think, sorry. I think that that is also where men get really confused as to what their role is. Right. So we want them to take control. We want them to take away some of our decision fatigue because as women, we've been experiencing umpteen years of decision fatigue. But then we still want [00:05:00] them to be softer and in tune with themselves and trying to. more and listen more.

Amber: Right.

Vicki: I mean? So, I pay homage to the man. I don't think your job is easy.

Amber: No.

Vicki: told you that was gonna be the case. I just think that, that it can be worth it to be

Coralie: I think it also too, it's so woven into our society and it's been that way. For thousands of years. Right. And think sometimes we don't realize how many different ways it affects us and the men in our life until, it kind of hits you in the face And feel like, my husband, I can't speak for you guys because I'm not close with your men, but knowing you, I'm going to assume this is true, that they. Were or are a little more, um, progressive than a lot of the other men in that generation, [00:06:00] but that they're still so far to go because even as a mom who's raised a man, I thought I was doing, like so much to help kind of reduce that bubble of toxic masculinity, but. Now that he's a young adult, I'm just like, oh, I could have done this.

I could have done that. Because those are things I didn't realize then, because we were still younger and growing and evolving, it's been here for thousands of years. It's gonna take thousands of years to, to get rid of it, you know?

Vicki: Yeah, I agree. 

Coralie: So let's talk about what healthy masculinity looks like. And I think there's, a whole bunch of different answers , but something funny that just happened in my own relationship the other day is we have like this outside garbage can, we haven't been outside. We're just coming outta winter.

And um, and I just noticed like a couple weeks ago that it was full. It's the backyard one. You don't have to empty it all the time. And I remember thinking, oh, I have to, you know, remind my husband to empty that 'cause I can't lift. And the other [00:07:00] day I went out and it was just changed sent him a text and I was like, that was so hot.

Vicki: Coralie's Really easy to please.

Coralie: I think it's the, that whole idea of it's the thought that counts.

Right.

Vicki: It was just my birthday and uh, I had seen these old wicker chairs you guys on at, it was online. I saw it at a thrift store and I was gaga over these chairs like I needed these chairs. So, and I showed them to my guy and I was just like, oh my God.

Did you look at these? These are so cool. he left here, went to that thrift store that he had never been in before and walked up and people were looking at it and he basically went, thank you. And he just picked them up and then proceeded to follow the lady around for a while and try to get her down in the price. 'cause thrifting wasn't enough. But the fact that [00:08:00] he literally left here, he said, I saw the sparkle in your eye. I knew that's what I had to do. Now, not only did he have to go get them, but then he had to take them home and he literally, that basket weaving course he took in high school worked out well because he had to re-weave some of the chair and, make it stronger because it was, one of the chairs was really, really worn. gift. I don't know what it cost him. I have, I don't even have a clue. They didn't have a price online. I have no idea. It could have been of dollars. It could have been $20. I have no clue. But the thought went into that, the fact that he saw how excited it was and he did that, that's modern masculinity, right?

Amber: That's so important to have that in a relationship though. And not just, the big strong brooding, man where they can actually think about you and your needs, right? Or just go a little bit over and above without. Even spending a ton of money, right?

Like I, I think I had mentioned on another [00:09:00] podcast where, Paul had left me a bunch of notes all over my office one time. And even just this week he knew I had had a rough night and the next morning I woke up to coffee and a smile cookie on my, on my table when I got out of bed. So, um, just little things like that where they.

see things and then they actually act upon them to make sure that you're feeling good or you are, you know, feeling appreciated.

Vicki: Yeah, you're right. It's the little touches, and again, it's that recognition that there was something Then to go one step further with that, right? Sometimes we're just so busy in our lives, we don't notice. We don't see, and again, that goes both ways. I also think that women can, experience some toxic masculinity traits of their own being pretty hyper independent.

Myself, I definitely notice that there are times when someone will ask me if I want help with something, and then I'm like, no, I've got this. No, I'm good. No, I'm fine. I can do this by myself. That's also toxic masculinity, this isn't just pinned on men. I [00:10:00] definitely know that throughout my life, my experience has taught me that I need to be hyper independent, which is definitely a piece of masculinity.

It's something I work on every day. I try really hard to let people help me .

Coralie: one of the funniest lessons I got in modern masculinity happened, I wanna say, around 2008, 2009. I was doing a shopping event and it was for couples. And typically, a lot of times I would experience when I would do a couple shopping event. If I talked about anal stuff, the men there would just kind of freak out a bit, get a little insecure, uncomfortable, maybe make some inappropriate comments. the way that you would expect, they're thinking that if you like it up the butt, you're gay, all that stuff. And so it's kind of just what I expected. I had some tactics to switch the vibe, but at this particular party the couples basically looked like kind of motorcycle gangs and the guys were like big, burly guys [00:11:00] with leather vests and jean jackets and full beards and, just very masculine, manly men. And when I got to the anal stuff, everyone was excited, everyone shared and three or four of those couples, there was only maybe five or six couples in there, and three or four of them came into the shopping area. And the men were just so excited about the backdoor stuff, and they just, for me, it was like, I would've never guessed that. I would've never guessed that, and that stayed in my brain. So much because I just thought, those are truly manly men because they understand that just because they enjoy backdoor play, they're comfortable with it.

They know it doesn't mean anything about their masculinity or who they are or their sexuality, and I just, I think every man learn something a situation like that, you know? It was just, wow. I still think about it.

Vicki: Yep. And it's funny too because we as a society, Believe [00:12:00] based on sight.

Coralie: Mm-hmm.

Vicki: of things about people, and we know nothing about what's really going on in their brain and in their bodies and in their hearts. And, I always laugh because I'm just like, yeah, men get cringey until they try it.

And then they're like,

Coralie: Mm-hmm.

Vicki: yeah, who's your new best friend? Mm-hmm.

Coralie: Right. Mm-hmm.

Vicki: But, I also love the fact that, when we do events like that, that sometimes if we have couples there, that, you can always see who has a really communicative, collaborative relationship. Because what I've noticed is that oftentimes, the men will be like, did you see how much she loved?

She was so interested in that. I don't get that. Put that on the list. We're getting that, that's modern masculinity.

Coralie: Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And I can understand how it would be hard for some men to up to the idea of toys being in the bedroom because they've been raised to believe that if they can't do it all.

Vicki: Yes,

Coralie: not a real man, and it can take some time to break that barrier.

Amber: Who wants [00:13:00] to use a hands saw for all the jobs when you can have. A power tool, right?

Like it's the same thing. It's just a added tool for the job

When it comes to adding sex, toys and stuff into bedroom, right?

Vicki: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Coralie: Penis isn't the end all be all. I'm sorry. If the roles were switched if women were the ones who climaxed easier. Men were the ones that took, you know, 20 minutes compared to five, this society would be totally different.

There would be vibrators beside the gum when you check

out Yes, yes. true story.

at the gas station and,

Vicki: Yeah.

Alright ladies, let's talk about how traditional masculinity can hurt men. It can hurt women, families, really. Let's talk about the expectations. Where people raising people and that certainly has a ripple effect. 

And I think that a lot of the negative shit we see in the world is generational. It's just because that's how our [00:14:00] parents felt and did and saw and experienced something and we just. Perpetuated it, right? So I think that, growing within that and within ourselves and within our own family construct, we get the opportunity to create whatever kind of change we want. If we're walking into the world road raging and goodness gracious, have you noticed how much road rage there is this spring? It's wild. It's just wild. I don't know about where you are, but it is crazy here. that's toxic masculinity. Whether you are a woman or a man doing it, it does not matter if you are getting out of your car to yell at somebody, I am not exempt. I have been a very angry person in my time, so I, I identify, I can absolutely connect with that, but I just think it's so important to make the choice to try to be a little different sometimes.

Coralie: I think that is from never learning about your feelings or how to talk about them or how to identify them, because a lot of times they don't even know what they're feeling because 

People have never learned to [00:15:00] identify 'em. I used to be that way too, and I was a lot angrier when I didn't know how to identify my feelings.

Vicki: Yes.

Amber: I don't think it's just the outward. Rage part of it. Either it could be the silence, the not talking, the pushing it all down, the, everything's fine. It's just fine. I think that that's detrimental to any person, let alone a relationship.

Vicki: agreed.

you have to make the choice to make a little bit of a shiftsometimes our partners are not necessarily going to be on the same page with us because we've been away. For umpteen years, and then all of a sudden we're emoting. Right? 

Amber: Yeah, that just, that comes back to what we say all the time, right? It's that communication. just. Having that safe place being able to emote right without feeling judged like you're doing something wrong.

All right, so we're gonna dive into some comments that we've been getting on YouTube. So if you haven't been watching us on YouTube, you may [00:16:00] wanna go check that out because man, especially This BJ episode, it's getting all the comments, but we wanted to dive into these because a lot of them are from men.

And it just kind of goes to show some of what we've been talking about today. So this first comment that I'm gonna read, states notice that when a group of women get together to talk about anything intimate, they smirk, giggle, laugh, mock, and humiliate men.

Vicki: Well now. I'm giggling now, sir. I'm giggling now. You got me. I love that. First of all, thank you for commenting 'cause that just is wonders for our algo. But, I think that's a really interesting comment and I feel. Sad that, um, maybe they need to watch some more of our episodes because they have not picked up what we're putting down. And again, I think it's experience, providing perspective and, I hope, [00:17:00] he's all right.

Coralie: Well, first of all, thank you for the comment. 'cause every comment helps like Vicki said, I also feel like that's projection. to be honest, I feel like that's probably what this particular person does with his friends when they talk about women and. I think it's very normal. No matter whether you're a man or a woman, you're having these conversations.

And I don't mean even with your partner, I mean like girlfriend conversations, guy friend conversations, sex is funny. You're gonna giggle, you're gonna laugh. It doesn't mean you're giggling and laughing at your partner or at your friend's partner. just how it goes. No one's putting anyone down or making fun of them. And I find it interesting that. Someone would listen and think that's what we were doing.

Vicki: Yeah. It's like what happened there? Yeah. But again, what Coralie, you have a statement, uh, the message is only received. Say that.

Coralie: Oh, that [00:18:00] communication happens when the message is received, not when it's said.

Vicki: I think that applies here.

Coralie: yeah, I mean, it could. And if this particular commenter wanted to tell us what particular thing we said that. Led to that line of thinking, I would actually be really open and interested to hear, because I'm always open and willing to learn. But I also think sometimes just wanna bitch.

Vicki: Yeah. I agree. I think sometimes people are just angry and then of course they just take to the keyboard to say whatever, and maybe they just wanna be seen. Um, we see you. see you.

Amber: Now we did get others on the other side of it, right where somebody else stated, hi ladies. Nice discussion. It's many times hard to get into a discussion like this with your significant other, especially for older people. But I enjoyed the discussion and I like Vicki's views. Thank you so much for your presentation.

So there's two sides of the spectrum here.

Vicki: [00:19:00] Yeah. Someone who wants to be a communicator is appreciating the thoughtfulness of the conversation and wants to figure out how to make that happen. Yeah. I love that.

Amber: Absolutely. I just wanna read one more comment and if you guys have any others, that you wanted to say. But this one I thought was really cool because they're looking back, but at the same time I feel like they're like, oh, like they're learning. Do you know what I mean?

So he says, Vicki. I wish somebody would've given me a swift kick in the ARS when I was younger, that it's okay to ask after the experience what the likes, dislikes, and expectations were. Too much guessing and no communication 

Also, I was always afraid to admit I had very little experience. I just stayed silent. Looking back, I should have admitted it upfront to minimize the guessing as to what pleases my partner.

Vicki: Hmm, you, me, both. Brother, friend.

Amber: Damn right,

Vicki: Yeah. I mean, level of awareness does not come [00:20:00] from my twenties.

Coralie: That's modern masculinity right there.

Amber: right. Absolutely.

Vicki: I love that. I love that. We just have to be more afraid of living a life where we're not heard than we are of losing that we want to hear us. I think that's a pretty powerful one. Thank you for sharing that.

Coralie: Mm-hmm. One of the comments that I found interesting was. I wonder if they are so understanding if their husbands had so many guidelines on cuing us and, and that's like another example of that what we were talking about, like taking it in a completely different context because of course we do have guidelines for that too.

Just because we were talking about what our guidelines were to perform oral sex on our partner doesn't mean that we expect them to. the same for us with absolutely no [00:21:00] holds. Bar doesn't matter if you haven't showered in eight days, you're on your period, whatever. Like of course we have guidelines.

Vicki: Yes. 

Coralie: No oral sex after Taco Bell, like there are rules.

Vicki: There are rules. There are rules, yeah. Yeah. And I think that as women, we hold ourselves to a standard. And hear this, I think most men do too.

Coralie: Mm-hmm.

I think a lot of times when you see those men that are perpetually angry and are, you know, commenting angry things, on not just YouTube videos, but on TikTok, whatever. I think a lot of times that happens, and this isn't my own thought, this is from reading and stuff that I've done, is that they've been raised in this society that says. You're a man. You're gonna get all this because you're a man. If you're a manly man, and if you do all the things and you have the job and you, you know, you're gonna have a wife and you're gonna have kids and you're just, you're the man. And so they've been raised to think that they're just gonna get all this [00:22:00] stuff.

And when that doesn't happen, maybe they don't have a partner, maybe they haven't been able to find a partner, maybe they've never found success in a career, whatever. Again, they. Take that out on everyone around them. They comment on people's social media, angry things, usually with, you know, a hiding face or, or maybe not.

But all just goes back down to not being able to process those feelings and being told that they're just gonna get this because they're a man. Or being raised in a society that says they're gonna get this because they're a man. And so I can understand how it would lead to anger over time. Like I really can.

I have a lot of empathy for it.

Vicki: Yeah, I agree.

Coralie: my

Vicki: And, and you know, I would just encourage anybody who's angry enough to go on to our podcast or anybody else's and be a keyboard warrior, you should probably seek some help for that because it's gonna make you happier. But I.

Coralie: Mm-hmm.

Vicki: just me. And that's modern masculinity, ladies and gentlemen.

Amber: All right, so we're not here to bash masculinity. We're here to [00:23:00] evolve it to hold space for men as they shed old layers and step into something more real, more compassionate, more free. Thanks for listening, and if this sparks something in you, and we'd love for you to share it with us in the comments or send us in the email at not safe for brunch@gmail.com.

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