Episode 27: Outercourse: Breaking the Myth of Penetration-Centered Intimacy

In this episode of Not Safe for Brunch, hosts Coralie, Amber, and Vicki debunk the myth that penetration is the main event in sexual experiences. The conversation highlights the importance of redefining intimacy and embracing 'outer course'—non-penetrative sexual activities like touch, massage, oral, mutual masturbation, and the use of toys. They discuss the cultural pressures and the 'orgasm gap' that many women face and emphasize the need for communication and honesty in sexual relationships. This candid discussion aims to empower women to prioritize their pleasure, embrace their desires, and facilitate healthier and more fulfilling sexual relationships.

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Transcript

Amber: [00:00:00] All right, ladies, if you grew up thinking sex starts with kissing and ends with penetration, you've been robbed. Today we're breaking down the myth that p in v is the main event and showing some serious love to everything that happens around it.

Vicki: Because let's get real. Some of the best sex of our lives has nothing to do with penetration at all.

Coralie: And for most women, this conversation is long overdue. As we age, our hormones shift comfort changes, and our expectations evolve. So let's talk about what intimacy really looks like.

Coralie: Welcome to Not Safe for Brunch. In this podcast, we're here to bring sex insight and real world education to the table unapologetically. Think about it as having those important, unfiltered brunch conversations with your closest friends about sex relationships and everything in between. With over 55 years of experience combined [00:01:00] in the intimacy industry, helping individuals and couples focus on breaking down barriers.

Coralie: Reducing shame and empowering people to embrace their desires and relationships with confidence. Hi, I'm Coralie. I live in the Vancouver area. I'm a married mama, two half empty nesting, one in one out, and my secret power is I love a good rabbit hole. I love digging deep and finding the truth or the root cause of a situation.

Amber: And I'm Amber. I live in Ontario. I'm married. I'm a mom and a gma. And an unapologetic quality of mine is I weed through the fluff, and I get to the point. 

Vicki: I love it. I am Vicki. I'm in Manitoba. I'm divorced, and I'm reentering the relationship space. I'm a mom to two grownups and my magic is making meaningful connections and relationship, which of course creates trust.

Amber: Excited about this topic only because it just like enhances foreplay and you don't even have to end with [00:02:00] the main event.

Vicki: Wait a minute, who's to say that the main event even is like the thing, right? Like I, I don't know. I feel like, uh, if everyone's satisfied at the end, you've experienced the main event

Amber: Right. No matter how you ended it.

Vicki: totally.

Amber: So why does this topic really matter anyway? , There is cultural pressure that, centers around that penetration and sex, right? And there's also what we call as an orgasm gap. And p in v. Doesn't necessarily work for most women to reach orgasm. So just that penetration alone, generally, most women aren't actually climaxing from penetration alone.

Amber: So this whole idea of like outer course that we're gonna talk about today is a big deal,

Vicki: Totally. I always laugh when I hear about that because I think, yeah, penetration is not our finishing move.

Amber: right?

Amber: so outer course is a way [00:03:00] to reconnect when desire and libido maybe feel a little bit off, right? And a lot of us will, I'll go through that in our long-term relationships, especially, and we've just been told that foreplay is like the lead up to that main event, but we all know that we can climax without it.

Amber: As women and men, you don't need the penetration to orgasm.

Vicki: Totally, and it's often way more intimate. When it's not just penetration, it's closeness, it's conversation, it's really paying attention to each other's body and how we're responding to touch. It's the good stuff.

Amber: I, I would love to know, ladies, what's one thing you were taught or assumed about sex that looking back now just makes you be like, what the hell? You're listening, please share.

Vicki: Yeah, we wanna know. For me, I think it was autonomy. Knowing that I could ask for what I wanted, knowing that it [00:04:00] was about me, but that I. That I had more choice than I think I realized, and especially, coming into my fifties being single, I'm never selling for shitty sex again. And, I know the difference now, right? I, I refuse to accept anything less than what I desire. And, for anybody who wants to come at me, I also refuse to accept anything less than what my partner desires, as long as that is, consensual.

Coralie: I thought there was blowing in blow jobs.

Vicki: Right.

Coralie: That's what I assumed

Amber: I love it.

Coralie: when I was growing up. I. Like, wait. You don't go like, like that. I don't. Anyways, that was a mindblower. But also too, like growing up, and I've talked about this before, just being raised with kind of mixed messages about sex. The one thing that I felt [00:05:00] growing up was that there was a lot of shame around sex.

Coralie: And then as I became, it wasn't even like a full adult, it was even like my teen years. When you start really doing like critical thinking and I realize. Everyone does it. Why is there shame around? Shame around it? You know, and I think that shame was mostly because of, in my case, a lot of mixed messages.

Coralie: So if you are divorced and raising kids, get on the same page or at least have conversations about the other page so that your child gets the full picture.

Vicki: Yeah, and I, I agree. I think that even if we're not just talking about divorced families, where two sides are coming from a different page, we're talking about friendships, we're talking about, Potential partners, boyfriends, girlfriends, et cetera. We're talking about teachers. We're talking, we're talking about so many messages that kids in general and young adults are receiving that, I'm really proud of this generation you know, the, the kids growing up in their twenties right now.

Vicki: And, they make me so excited because they are really. Taking it on. They are [00:06:00] doing what works for them. They are shaking off that shame and they're just moving forward with, how and what they feel works best for them. I love it.

Vicki: Okay, so let's talk about what exactly is outer course. I know that that's kind of, an unknown term maybe. So it's basically non penetrative sexual activities, touch, massage, oral mutual, masturbation, toys, fantasy, et cetera. not P in V, that is outer course. And of course, some of the benefits of outer course are gonna be that there's a bit of a slower buildup.

Vicki: Buildup. It's more intimate, as I said, there's a deeper connection, there's a lot less pressure around it, right? When I remember being younger, talking about being younger, I remember, you know, the, the penis goes inside the vagina and then all of a sudden. Orgasm happens. Well, I was so disappointed when it wasn't magical like that. Where's my orgasm? Right. and I think that a lot of, young men also grow up thinking that they have this magic [00:07:00] tool. When they don't realize that it's actually on their hands , and maybe on their mouth, but not actually in their pants, right? So I think that's sort of a fallacy that they run with.

Vicki: And it's unfortunate because they desire the education too. Like I said, I think it feels more intimate emotionally, especially during, and after, of course, we know you wanna have a sex decompress. What do you like? What do you not like? What was good? What wasn't good? What do we do next time?

Amber: Right. I mean, I've always heard the term like, you know, you don't wanna, like, I would like, I would. Love to go back to my twenties, knowing what I know now., But in reality, I had so much fun in my twenties. I probably didn't wanna know what I know now, but I kind of want that with sex. Right.

Amber: Just give it to me in certain aspects.

Vicki: Yeah.

Coralie: totally.

Amber: man. If I could go back.

Vicki: Right. Like, I mean, don't, don't we wish that there was like a Kohl's notes, like

Vicki: if I could have just gotten the Kohl's notes version, I would've been so much better off but you know what? We fail forward so.

Coralie: Yeah, they should have, like, you [00:08:00] know, people in their senior years coming and giving the real sex ed talks when we're in school.

Vicki: Yeah, totally. Yes. So have you guys ever had like a time where you had like the best sex ever but it, it involved no penetration at all. Why? And why do you think it stuck with you?

Coralie: I mean, I have, especially like I've shared my, my journey over the last six months here, and so there, that's mostly what we were dealing with because. I wasn't comfortable. He wasn't comfortable but I think that the other ways that you can have sex, like without actual penetration are a hell of a lot more intimate

Coralie: than the actual physical act of like the penetration because. You don't really go there with as many people I would think. I mean, I don't know. I've been with the same person for 30 years, but I just imagine like I know us. It took us a long time to get to that point before, you know, that was happening. Penis, p in v was first, and then you get [00:09:00] more of that like deep connection stuff, right?

Amber: Yeah, I was. I was lucky when I was younger. I just met somebody that, um, damn the foreplay, like we didn't even have to have sex. Like it was just that, it was that good. Um, so I did,

Vicki: send Amber the crown. Woo.

Amber: um, so I mean it was fabulous, but then I had to teach future partners. I'm like, listen,

Coralie: Yeah.

Amber: needs to happen.

Vicki: Well, and I think that that's natural, right? And I think that, again, coming into my fifties, being single, going, wait a minute, I get to redefine. What sex intimacy, um, what does that look like for me? And then I just went forth with, this is what I want, what I need, how I need it. I'm gonna show you, I'm gonna guide you, and I expect you as a partner to do the same for me, because I don't wanna [00:10:00] be left in the dark either.

Vicki: You tell me how you like to be touched. You tell me what feels good. You want me to try it, you got it right.

Amber: Well, and I, I think now people are like listening, going, shit, I need to get divorced to have good sex. And I don't think that's.

Vicki: you need to, you need to have a communicative partner, someone who's willing to grow with you. I just didn't have that, so that's okay.

Coralie: Just, just make a date night. Listen, watch us on the big screen. It'll be a great discussion after.

Amber: Yeah. Pause. Like what do you think of talking about this? You know? Anyways.

Vicki: Yeah. Onwards and upwards. Like I said, just keep evolving inside the relationship that you're in. And that's, and that is sexy.

Vicki: That 

Amber: Hell 

Vicki: super hot. When you can be with a partner for 20 odd years like you ladies have and go, yeah, I need a, an adjustment, a modification, a tweak, and my partner's showing up for that, showing, boom. That's exciting to me.

Coralie: Well, and I think that's important too, for like any long-term relationship [00:11:00] that because you change your sexual needs, desires, your, your world opens up because you hear about other things. , And that acceptance and responsiveness on both sides is, key to long term. Long-term care.

Coralie: So let's talk about why women in midlife should embrace outer course. First of all, we're dealing with a whole lot of other issues when we get to this stage in life. We have vaginal dryness, we have pelvic floor changes, and all that discomfort that we deal with as we go into perimenopause and menopause can make PNV feel stressful or uncomfortable. When you engage in different activities, rather than just going for p in v, you're gonna get more creativity, more connection. You're gonna find other ways that you can really enjoy yourself and be able to relax more. Because when you are expecting to have some sort of discomfort or pain, it stresses you out and it tightens up your muscles and it makes it harder to relax and enjoy the moment.

Coralie: Right? So. Really important. I mean, we're midlife, we should be doing this if we weren't doing it already. It is [00:12:00] time, you know, prioritize our pleasure first, like Vicki said, she's like, I'm not settling anymore. And that's gonna help reduce the orgasm gap, which is like we've talked about before, the gap between the amount of time that it takes, someone with a vagina and someone with a peanut two climax.

Coralie: So get it closer together.

Vicki: And there's just so many ways, right? Coralie, like that's what you're talking about. You're talking about all of these ways to be intimate so that we can, shorten that orgasm gap so that we can kind of get to that place where it's a slightly more level playing field.

Coralie: Mm-hmm. Totally. Yeah. And I think it can be really hard to, especially for us as women, to fully embrace this because I feel like we. Have been raised in society. I always go back to society 

Vicki: Yeah, 

Coralie: where the man, the man's pleasure is most important, right? And his pleasure's most important. Yours is kind of secondary, but what I found, I mean, in my own marriage in talking to a lot of, you know, very happily content [00:13:00] couples, is that the woman's pleasure is a. Huge turn on for the man, right? So if we could just relax, let go and embrace our pleasure, it's gonna turn him on more too, if you are in a hetero relationship. So it all just comes back, you know, you gotta calm down, just let go be you. Like if you can't be you at this stage in life, more therapy, more therapy. but yeah, so I think that stops women from fully embracing all this stuff. What do you guys think?

Vicki: Yeah, I think it's a little bit of probably all of those things, but I think it's that fear of rejection or that fear of being judged. So I think that bringing something new into the bedroom isn't just a. I'm not so sure if we can navigate this together. I'm not. So it's literally what is my partner gonna think?

Vicki: Is this gonna be a deal breaker? Does this end my relationship? Does this make my relationship better? I honestly believe, that women just don't know how to broach the topic. And [00:14:00] even with the verbiage, they're more nervous because they're unsure if their partner's gonna be open to a tweak. You

Vicki: know, um, that's my belief.

Vicki: In my experience. And I think that women just need to decide that their pleasure is paramount. And that they can ask for what they want. And I think that we have to be more willing to ask for what we want to receive. And I think that we would get it more often too. I think that's a story we're telling ourselves is that they're not gonna be receptive to it.

Vicki: I think that's bullshit. But I think that the. Fear itself is what stands in front, because we don't know, is this gonna be a deal breaker? Is he gonna walk away? How's that gonna make me feel? I'll feel really judged. And then we go into all the 10,000 things that sit on our shoulders every other day about how we're not enough.

Vicki: And I just feel like we need to just be honest because I think that our partners are far more receptive than we believe they are.

Amber: I think this came up in another, podcast episode. I might have been, uh, Coralie's example where, you know, one partner brought, I want to try a toy, and I've been [00:15:00] thinking about it and. The other partners, like, oh my gosh, I've been thinking about this for years, and they just didn't talk. And I think that that's the, that's the main barrier here is partners, couples, they're not communicating enough so like.

Amber: Vicki's decompressed with the after sex, outside of the bedroom, I think is the main thing, before you even hop into it, is talking about it outside of the bedroom. And if you're like, oh, I don't know if I can look at them, did I go back to back drive in the car? Like whatever, bring it up somewhere.

Amber: That's a neutral kind of area where you're not already thinking about having sex or in the moment, right.

Vicki: Yeah, and I think that it's really easy too, like if you are, if you're just in the middle of doing something, maybe you're cooking dinner or whatever, like it's just easy to kind of go, Hey, have you ever seen da, da da, da? Or Have you ever thought about doing A, B, C? , If you're in the middle of stuff, it just makes it a little simpler to have sort of a, a breezy conversation, if you will, about something new and different.

Vicki: And then you can. You know, deep in that conversation, there could be more [00:16:00] depth to that as you sit down and go, yeah, let's try that. Right? , That's exciting for you guys who are in all in like long-term relationships because when you're in a newer relationship, we're just going, we see each other once every two weeks.

Vicki: Let's just do the thing. It's like, yeah, let's just like, come on, let's go. But at the end of the day, I feel like, you know, as you grow in that relationship and as you grow in your relationships, as you guys have, it's something that's kind of exciting to know that you have and a partner who's insightful, who's interested, who wants to hear what you have to say, and knows that they can also ask you for things that's fucking hot.

Vicki: Sorry,

Coralie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, 

Amber: And the answer doesn't always have to be yes.

Vicki: No.

Coralie: Just a

Coralie: discussion. 

Amber: you guys gotta be okay with that. Maybe, maybe approach it that way at first. You know, I, I was thinking about something. You don't have to say yes, however, and then start with kind of what you were thinking of maybe trying or what that looks like.

Vicki: I love that. [00:17:00] Thank you so much for saying that, Amber, because I think that just because it's on the table doesn't mean we have to ingest it. Right?

Vicki: Like I thank you. I really appreciate that perspective.

Coralie: Yeah. I like too that you said that because, a conversation I recently had with one of my clients is she was saying that she feels like her husband gets on the defense. Like when she suggests something to him, he is always just woo woo. But he, he's not actually defensive. That's just kind of how he reacts and she takes it that way.

Coralie: So my suggestion to them was like, have sort of like a safe word first, you know, before the convo, like, Hey, I wanna talk to you about something, but. I wanna make sure you're in the right zone. And oftentimes she said her husband isn't even defensive. He's just kind of shocked, but she's taking it that way and it makes it harder to approach it again. So, find some way to have that conversation. I love that, like kind of doing it in between, because sometimes it's even too just about reducing that sensation. And if you feel like you suggest something and your partner is always like, woo, that's [00:18:00] a conversation to have too, so that you can learn how to approach it together better.

Vicki: And, I mean, what do they say? Like every argument is, is it a product of a miscommunication?

Coralie: Mm-hmm.

Vicki: So it's just simply that you may be receiving that message incorrectly or in, in a different way than was intended. And it just has to, it has to be

Vicki: an open conversation. I like that. Are you in a place to have a conversation about our relationship?

Vicki: Are you in a place to have a

Vicki: conversation about, you know, something that I'm kind of interested in? I love that.

Coralie: And I would say, just phrase it in a way where it's obvious that it's a positive, because you could have someone that's like, oh shit, what did I do? They're gonna start thinking back.

Vicki: Yeah. I love that. We need to talk and then there's me. Okay, let's do it. But you know, you say that to a man and they're like, fuck.

Coralie: another point too that I wanted to bring up about this is that something that really just put more emphasis on the different ways to have this type of sex [00:19:00] is in all of the classes and books. I think like we've all attended and heard so much stuff and, you know, when I first heard about someone who. Was paralyzed still having orgasms. I was like, wow, that's like so incredibly lucky. Like totally. It's actually quite common. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but some people can, whether they've been paralyzed or they've had some sort of nerve damage so that things don't work the way they used to and, The bodies can adapt, right? So if these couples, and if these people can figure out a way to make it work, I think there's hope for a lot of us, because medical stuff is really hard to work around, and especially if sex is really important to you and it might be getting you in the totally, like a crappy mindset about it all.

Coralie: So, I don't know. That just made me think, why, why do we have this vision of what sex is when obviously it can be 50 million ways and

Vicki: Yeah. Yeah. And if you're with a partner and you're not willing to course correct, then you've got a problem. Right? Like, we [00:20:00] have to be willing to make those course corrections because today we're healthy, 

Vicki: maybe, right? Tomorrow we, we could not be. And as you've experienced Coralie, we just, like you said, this is, you've been loud about your journey, about this. You didn't see this coming. It was an overnight change. That was a massive change for the last year of your life.

Coralie: Mm-hmm.

Coralie: Mm-hmm.

Vicki: That was a big deal, and I think that that needs to be, prevalent in the conversation when it comes to a long-term relationship where you're like, yeah, like what does this look like if I'm not a hundred percent?

Coralie: Mm-hmm.

Vicki: not percent? What if you hurt yourself? What does it mean?

Vicki: How do we navigate it? 

Coralie: Yeah. One good thing though is there are so many great. Products out there. Now, if people are struggling, if, if it's like disability related,

Coralie: um, whether it's foreplay or when you're actually going for p in v, but like the liberator stuff, they have things designed for so many different body types and ways that it can [00:21:00] work with different disabilities.

Coralie: So, I mean, we're in 2025 and it's a good time to be alive, you guys.

Vicki: Sure is.

Amber: All right, let's, let's drop some tips for our listeners, for, you know, a little bit of fun outer course, but you wanna give yourself permission to slow down. I. Enjoy the buildup. Your pleasure is not a race. And that's the whole point, right? A lot of times we're like so focused on penetration. We're like, Hey, we're gonna do this and we're gonna get, we're having fun.

Amber: Okay, let's go. You know? And I think that if you just take penetration off the table, crap, you're gonna have some incredible experiences. So maybe, you know, penetrations on Wednesday night and Tuesday, Thursday, you're just outer course.

Vicki: Yeah, make a game of it, right? How long can we hold out

Vicki: before penetration 

Coralie: That's Vicki's favorite game and I love it. I think we could make that into a board game of some sort. And there's our retirement, you guys.

Amber: there you go.[00:22:00] 

Vicki: Not safe for brunch, commercial sex only. Oh my gosh, you're so funny. I love it. Something else you wanna do is of course not to underestimate touch skin to skin connection is so incredibly powerful. , Even without the main event, it can be, I don't even like that without the main event, it can be the main event.

Vicki: Skin to skin connection without penetration can be the main event.

Coralie: Yeah, I actually kind of think, um, you know, when we talk about it as the main event, I think it's like. The after party,

Amber: Oh, that's so.

Coralie: it's the private show. The private club you get invited to if you're cool.

Vicki: I love that. Get me an invite. I.

Coralie: My tip is to learn how to make yourself orgasm because you have to explore your body. If you don't know how to do it. If you don't know where your special spots are and how to make it [00:23:00] go really fast, how do you expect anyone else to? So you have to be the master of your own domain. Explore, the better you know, the more you can communicate.

Amber: Heck, explore together by yourself 

Coralie: Mm-hmm. 

Amber: And show each other what you like 

Coralie: Mm-hmm. 

Amber: is.

Vicki: I. Zach's gonna tell you that. I was just gonna say that. I was like, can you just like watch each other take turns? Be like

Vicki: you go. I go. How do you like it? Show me.

Coralie: Yeah. Or if you, one of you are at work and one of you are at home, I see the person at home. You just tease that person all day long. Okay? I'm going exploring, oh, this is what, this is what I found. Report your, like give them, I don't wanna say a play by play, but 

Vicki: Yeah. 

Coralie: get them excited. You might have a little fun when they get home.

Amber: So sex doesn't have to be linear. It doesn't have to be performative, and it sure as hell doesn't have to be all about his orgasm. Your pleasure matters. Your body [00:24:00] deserves options, and of course, many orgasms.

Vicki: And for all the women listening who thought that they were broken because they didn't love penetration, you're not broken. You're not broken. You just haven't been given the full menu. Right. The buffet is so important and you get to choose all the things.

Coralie: Absolutely. So give yourself permission to redefine your intimacy, pleasure and connection. Start today.

Vicki: Yeah.

Amber: So if there's one thing to take away from this episode. It's that your pleasure is not limited by old definitions. Sex can be whatever makes you feel connected, desired, and alive

Amber: Thanks for pulling up a chair at our unapologetic brunch table today. If you enjoyed the conversation, don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave us a review. It's like tipping your server, but for podcasts. And hey, sign up for our weekly newsletter using the link in the show notes so you never miss the juiciest, [00:25:00] most unfiltered chats we're serving up.

Amber: Remember, brunch isn't just about the mimosas, it's about the authentic connection and keeping it unapologetically real. Until next time, let's keep the brunch vibes alive and the conversation flowing.