Episode: 28 - Unrealistic Expectations: Penis and Labia Myths Explored

In this episode of Not Safe for Brunch, the hosts dive into the pervasive shame and unrealistic expectations surrounding penis size, labia shape, and other aspects of body image. Coralie, Amber, and Vicki bring unfiltered conversations about sexual confidence, body diversity, and the harmful impacts of societal standards. They explore shocking statistics, debunk myths, and emphasize the importance of self-compassion and genuine human connections. From discussing the average penis size to the rise in labiaplasty surgeries, the episode encourages listeners to challenge harmful myths and celebrate body diversity.

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Transcript

Vicki: [00:00:00] We live in a world where bodies are constantly judged, policed, and compared to impossible standards. But what happens when society tells us that certain bodies are wrong? Today we're gonna dive into the shame surrounding penis size, labia shape, and other unrealistic expectations and why it's time to challenge these harmful myths.

Coralie: Welcome to Not Safe for Brunch. In this podcast, we're here to bring sex insight and real world education to the table unapologetically. Think about it as having those important, unfiltered brunch conversations with your closest friends about sex relationships and everything in between. With over 55 years of experience combined in the intimacy industry, helping individuals and couples focus on breaking down barriers.

Coralie: Reducing shame and empowering people to embrace their desires and relationships with [00:01:00] confidence. Hi, I'm Coralie. I live in the Vancouver area. I'm a married mama, two half empty nesting, one in one out, and my secret power is I love a good rabbit hole. I love digging deep and finding the truth or the root cause of a situation.

Amber: And I'm Amber. I live in Ontario. I'm married. I'm a mom and a gma. And an unapologetic quality of mine is I weed through the fluff, and I get to the point. 

Vicki: I love it. I am Vicki. I'm in Manitoba. I'm divorced, and I'm reentering the relationship space. I'm a mom to two grownups and my magic is making meaningful connections and relationship, which of course creates trust.

Vicki: Let's start with some shocking stats. 67% of men worry about their penis size, yet the average direct length is only 5.1 to 5.5 inches, and I use only loosely, uh, which is again, it's far from the [00:02:00] exaggerated porn standard, right?

Amber: Yeah, but I feel like, like the word only should just be moved out of there. Like the average length is 5.1 to 5.5 because that is great.

Coralie: Yeah, somewhere in history there was this myth perpetuated that like the average is six inches. So there's so many, you know, sayings or things you hear about, you know, six inches here, six inches there. Like, well , that's larger than average actually, so,

Vicki: Yeah. And I also think that we'll dig into this, but of course the psyche that happens behind being told only

Vicki: or being told that this is an expectation, it's not just women who, have self-esteem around that. Like we men are worrying about that too. They're worrying about whether or not it's. What their partners are looking for. Everyone is comparing themselves to everyone. We shouldn't be, but we are. And I think that that's just realistic the next shocking stat that we've got is that over 50% of women report feeling self-conscious about [00:03:00] their labia, despite the fact that there is no normal when it comes to genital appearance. So there we go. We are all just worrying about we do or do not have, and none of us need to be.

Coralie: One thing that I think is interesting, and I just really believe this in my soul, is that most of this stuff is perpetuated by, um, either people who wanna feel superior, but then more importantly beyond that is people who wanna make money.

Coralie: Like how many companies do you know that are advertising like Labiaplasty and all this other stuff, and. It's advertising that makes us feel less than, and then society latches onto. Anyways, it's just a, let's 

Amber: Right

Vicki: yeah. Yeah

Vicki: I totally agree and I think that, , historically when people are trying to hurt someone else's feelings, and of course now with the presence of social media, I think that it is louder. Than ever before because [00:04:00] people will quietly behind the keyboard with a fake name, say all kinds of horrible things about another human being, without, considering the repercussions of that and the ramifications.

Vicki: And I just, I wish people would just love themselves the way they are, because trust me, someone's gonna love you just like that. So,

Coralie: Absolutely. 

Coralie: let's get into some body shaming. We kind of already, launched into it a little bit, but it's interesting how, media has, on what they focus on. And I know a lot of people. That I've spoken to over the years, like they didn't know that there's vaginas that look like this and V and Vulvas and all that stuff that look different ways because everything that's been presented to them has been their own or what they see in porn. And as someone, you know, I consume, I consume, I, I still don't often see. A wide range of different types of labia.

Vicki: And you know what, on the flip side, I know I just poo-pooed [00:05:00] social media and its influence and how people utilize it in a negative way. What I love about social media too is that we are seeing so much more. Amateur style pornography. , We're also just seeing people who are loud and proud about their bodies, and we're really getting a really good buffet of what's out there.

Vicki: And a lot of those, visuals can look much more like one or the other. You know, someone who's viewing it and go, oh, oh, I kind of look like that. I love that about how loud we are now.

Amber: Yeah, because I mean, a lot of times if you're watching mainstream porn, you're seeing like these perfect Vulvas and you're going, oh, what's wrong with me? If yours is different than the perfect shape, perfect size.

Vicki: I'm also a consumer and some not so perfect Vulvas, just say and Peace Girl. Like have at her. I don't care. Like, I just think that variety is [00:06:00] what provides a really good perspective. But,

Vicki: I don't know, but I agree. I think that it's just, it's all in whatever it is that we're the content that we're consuming.

Coralie: Yeah, and I think with social media too, another big benefit to it is I wonder if social media never happened, if the internet never happened, I. Would we have progressed like this? Because I think that the internet and social media gave people maybe even starting anonymously to be like, but my penis is less than six inches, is your, you know, like anonymous conversations, or My inner labia is longer than my outer labia.

Coralie: You know what I mean? And I think those conversations happened and then more and more people realized, wait, that's not the norm.

Coralie: Every, there is no norm.

Coralie: You know what I mean? And I don't think that. People would've been comfortable enough to have those conversations if there wasn't an anonymity to it or, , a screen or something behind it.

Vicki: Right. And I think that any person who has had more than one partner has had a decent sampling of what is available in the [00:07:00] world. And it really is much more about how you, manipulate the situation, physically, manipulate your bodies, what you do, how you connect, what you know, creating the perfect scenario for the two of you when you're together. , As opposed to it's to this or it's to that, or it's different or it's whatever. It all works fine. You just have to find it. You just

Vicki: gotta figure it out, right.

Coralie: Yeah,

Vicki: We're gonna just have a little judgment free zone here. We're gonna unpack some myths, with some empathy because we get it. We are human beings walking on this earth through this world with you, and we all have our own experiences that give us perspectives that we're gonna all weigh in on here.

Coralie: All right, let's go into the first myth. The myth of the ideal penis. The perfect penis. 

Vicki: Yeah. 

Coralie: Only, only 5% of men have a penis over seven inches, yet porn society, whatever, portrays larger as the norm. We kind of touched that a little bit. I know a lot of women I've spoken to, I mean, you guys too, we've talked [00:08:00] to hundreds, if not thousands of women over our combined careers, and it's very common for a woman to say, I don't like something really large.

Coralie: It hurts, and it's. Portrayed out there as this is what every woman wants and every woman desires. But I have sold a lot of product to women who can put like a short kind of sleeve on their partner so that they still get the penetration sensation, but they aren't going in all the way because of the pain.

Coralie: So I think the amount of women who want over seven inches is a lot smaller than what. Society and media would lead us to believe.

Vicki: I.

Amber: I. Completely agree, and I've heard the same thing, sold the same product. So yeah, definitely. Absolutely a hundred percent.

Vicki: I have also sold a lot of bumpers.

Amber: yeah.

Vicki: Yeah. I always say just because it feels great when the head hits our cervix, right. It feels good to them. 'cause that's where all their nerve endings are. But we don't have any nerve endings up there except the ones that cause us [00:09:00] incredible discomfort. So yeah, back the truck up friend.

Coralie: Yeah, well, some women do. Some women get enjoyment out of that. But again, small. You know those women and the over seven, they need to form like a Facebook group

Vicki: that's actually that, that, that could be the best speed dating event ever.

Amber: How many of you think would.

Coralie: Yeah.

Vicki: laughed a little too hard about that.

Coralie: Oh yeah. Well, let's talk about why small penis shame is so pervasive. Like, and I will say, I'm someone who's learning and growing. I have made penis sized jokes in the past. I have insulted men with penis sized jokes in the past. And, you know, I'm not ashamed of it. I am glad I've grown from it because. It just makes you think, , put the shoe on the other foot. It doesn't matter if, they insult us [00:10:00] with vagina sizing and stuff, and if we're saying that's not fair, we can't do it back. Sometimes you have to go full circle to realize that it's wrong. And just because historically women have been the more suppressed gender, it's almost like a fight back at first.

Coralie: And then you realize, wait, we're not gonna go anywhere if we do that.

Vicki: I'd have to agree. And I think that, it's always been something, honestly that I think men tease each other about

Vicki: too, right. So I think that there's so many layers in that. And yeah, we are all, like I said, living and growing and building human beings in this world. And, we get to be better every day.

Vicki: And in my past, if I've ever made anybody feel terrible about their member. Yeah. Like that sucks. I'm, I, I was a shitty human being in that moment. Sorry. Uh, but now we're here. Right? 

Coralie: Yeah. And also too, I mean, we were having this conversation, a week or two ago about the growers versus show. Like, you can't even comment on someone's penis size unless you've [00:11:00] seen it erect and soft because you don't know. I mean, didn't you read a stat or something about that Vicky?

Vicki: Um, yes. I don't have those numbers readily available, but I would still like to do an entire epi on that. But, uh, I'll tell you, that whole conversation for me was born at ladies night at a strip club, , and I was like, wait a minute. Tell me what do you know about like, anyway, and it was a whole thing.

Vicki: And then all of a sudden all of the women started jumping in and I recognized how very different, not that I didn't recognize in general, but with my friendship group, how very different their experiences had been. And I was like. I am so intrigued. So, um, again, I think that opening up the conversation, it wasn't a, this is better, this is worse. It literally was a tell me what you know about your experiences. Share that with me so that I can put that into my bag of tricks and of knowledge. Right. So that's all I want. I just wanna consume all the knowledge I can.

Coralie: [00:12:00] Mm-hmm.

Amber: I don't know about you, but I don't necessarily talk about any of, I had never really talked about any of my partner's penis size or anything. I didn't even realize that was a thing, even though I've seen it, like I was like, I just thought it was normal.

Vicki: Right. That works. That goes in here and it seems fun, so

Vicki: Right.

Vicki: like why, why are we, why are

Vicki: we. 

Amber: think like, well, if my Vulva was different than other people's wells, than penises are different than other people's penises and whatever. It didn't even didn't even face me. 'cause I've seen both so.

Vicki: Well, I'll tell you, I was shocked because I have never seen. A grower. It's just like, I was like, what? What? Uh, I'm like, how, how do I get to 53 years? I have not been a saint. I know, I know. Contrary to some of our viewers' beliefs. I've seen some things and that was, I was like, oh, wow.

Vicki: I was, I was. Genuinely interested. [00:13:00] It may have sent me down a rabbit hole. I'm just saying.

Coralie: Well, and also you know too, whether people are grower show. There is this myth that the size. Is relative to the amount of pleasing that person can do, and we all know it literally has almost nothing to do with it. I'm not gonna say I, I don't believe in absolutes. So there's always, you know, an extreme on either end, but I think most things are fixable.

Coralie: You know what I mean with, if you're comfortable like buying a girth enhancer or buying a bumper or buying an extender, there's always ways around it. And there's other body parts. Most women aren't climaxing from penetrative sex. Most vagina owners, so they're climaxing from finger play, from oral, from toys, and then the sex is kind of the grand finale, a lot of the times.

Coralie: So I think, yeah, I don't think it's related for the most part.

Vicki: I'd agree I would. I would say the [00:14:00] same. Like I said, everything else, everything is figure 

Vicki: figureoutable. Everything is figureoutable. I don't know. I just think that there's, there's a way to make all of the body parts work if the human that they're attached to is important to me.

Vicki: That's it. 

Amber: I love that. That's great.

Coralie: Mm-hmm. 

Amber: let's, let's jump into the next one. So, uh, this next myth, labia size and the perfect vagina myth. Labiaplasty surgeries rose 45% between 2015 and 2019. Often driven by insecurity and porn, aesthetics, I don't know, but I don't think I would even want anybody touching that.

Coralie: I would be so scared, like

Amber: Right.

Coralie: I don't, don't mess with my nerve endings down there.

Vicki: We have all had some sort of a women's health, procedure at some point, and if I told you that I didn't go into one of mine worrying that it was gonna change sensation or feeling or my experience, I'd be lying. I [00:15:00] am surprised, not shocked. I am surprised, that so many people fall under that umbrella of wanting to be different, better, I'm assuming better. If you're paying for it, you're obviously looking for better,

Vicki: um, than, than what they're experiencing. I get that there may be some medical conditions that may have happened that could have created something that they want to, try to bring it back to ground zero. But I feel sad that, people want to change how they look, just from a, from an aesthetic

Amber: Like, I mean, I, I guess maybe if you were like a porn star and you were showing it off, maybe I, I mean, I don't think it's necessary, but you know what I mean? If it's for your job,

Amber: but I don't think

Vicki: Sex work is real work. Amber. 

Coralie: And I don't have any judgements towards anyone who's had that surgery. I mean, I know none of us do. I can see why some people would want to have it done [00:16:00] if it's affecting their mental health because we've all, we all have been in situations or know people who something with their body has affected their mental health.

Coralie: And you'll do anything to make yourself feel better. To me, if I was in that situation, the risk I would be weighing is what? Is more important to me right now, my mental health or the possibility of nerve damage and affecting my ability to orgasm. You know, that's a big thing and I can understand

Coralie: how mental health would win.

Coralie: If you don't have your mental health, nothing else is gonna matter anyways.

Coralie: So I can understand that, I hope everyone who has done that for a mental health purpose has done some form of therapy

Vicki: I wonder if that's even a requirement. Do you think that's a requirement of accessing one of these kinds of procedures when it is not necessarily for medical purpose? Is there some sort of pre-conversation that is required to happen? Should be when you are literally changing. I. But I mean, I'm guessing not, but

Vicki: the mom in me says, please hug them.

Vicki: Tell them they're wonderful. , I feel like [00:17:00] that stat of 45% is, is also high. That an increase in 45%, that that can't just all be sex workers. 

Vicki: Right. 

Amber: No, absolutely not.

Coralie: social media, you 

Vicki: Yeah. So that is, that is us worrying, , about what somebody is thinking about our body too.

Vicki: That's not just necessarily our own internal thoughts. That's possibly somebody else may have said something and that's why our words are so important. 

Vicki: Someone may have just made a flippant, comment or, whatever, just in passing. Or maybe someone is really telling you that you need to change your body for them and. That's no bueno. Um, hand me their number.

Amber: Well, and if you wanna see the Great Wall of vulva. And you could see pictures online and this is a thing and it, I, I believe they move it around. But, , if you wanna go to the great wall of vulva.com and just find yours, there are so many I'm like,

Amber: looks like me.[00:18:00] 

Vicki: Um, have either of you ever been to the Museum of Sex in New York?

Coralie: No.

Vicki: Wow. I think we need to go on a field trip so that I've spent hours, hours there and everyone in my group was ready to go and I was just like enthralled. It was the best field trip ever. Just saying that was

Vicki: off. I went. I went on a road trip.

Coralie: I remember when, 'cause I was in New York on the same trip with you and I remember being very regretful that I didn't choose that adventure that day.

Vicki: Yes. It was so great. I would go back again. If I went to New York, I would live. That'd be the first thing on my to-do list.

Coralie: Mm-hmm.

Vicki: So something else to talk about of course is how do we think this affects sexual confidence and or access to healthcare?

Coralie: Well, I think, um, any sort of negative feeling we have towards our body, whether it's our face, our underarms, our labia [00:19:00] is going to affect our sexual confidence, and that's why I think it's so important to learn to accept yourself. Learn. Learn to like yourself. If you can't, learn to love yourself.

Coralie: You know, if you don't know how to love yourself, start with liking. I think that's a big difference. And what I wonder about healthcare, and we're in Canada, so this doesn't affect us so much, but we know America sneezes, we get a cold. So it could be something that's in our future. But I have to wonder, and this is a point I saw on social media, I didn't think of it myself, but it's been in my head a lot.

Coralie: If people are having surgery to transition from one gender to the other, and that is gender affirming care. Is this not gender affirming care? I. If so, if something is gonna come along that's going to affect that sort of gender affirming care. Should we even have these on the table? I mean, we know that this will never change. They'll still allow this because society is a double standard. But it's just, isn't it ironic, like our Canadian queen Alanis [00:20:00] said, Hmm.

Vicki: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. I actually wanted to talk a little bit about the idea of some of this, and maybe part of that 45% increase was gender affirming,

Coralie: Very. Mm-hmm.

Vicki: curious, very curious. We need to dive deeper into that one. I.

Coralie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I haven't seen a lot of vaginas in my life. You guys, like, I'm, more of a penis gal myself, so I can't speak to seeing a bunch of different labia in person, but. With everything I've seen online and in my work over the last 20 years. I mean, they're like a fingerprint,

Vicki: Yes. 

Amber: Yeah.

Coralie: and I think penises are the same. You know, they're, they're all just like a fingerprint. I think that we need to be celebrating the diversity of the labia and the penis.

Vicki: I agree. I think that, uh, when we don't celebrate the diversity, um, we amplify the angst around it and all of that comparison. And I don't wanna be a part of that.

Coralie: Yeah, absolutely. Love your [00:21:00] labia hashtag.

Vicki: That's a whole other topic too. Is the foreskin no foreskin debate?

Vicki: Like that's, that's another whole thing that in our group of moms and friends that we've talked about, and I am so interested in the varying degrees of. Yak and Yum on that one, and it just blows my mind. I'm like, oh, I never thought about it,

Coralie: Whether we're talking about, foreskin or penis size or. Labia, whatever, so one thing that's really important to say is it's okay to have preferences. Like, it doesn't mean you're a bad person. If you have a preference,

Coralie: that's okay, and that's

Coralie: normal, and, and saying you have a preference is fine, but when you say it in a way that disparages someone else's body, someone else's preference, that's, that's where it draws the line, you know?

Amber: I think though, it depends on your age, right? Because they really did stop the whole circumcision [00:22:00] thing at a certain year. You know, they just stopped doing it. So now, like the younger generations are probably like, that's all I see.

Coralie: Mm-hmm.

Amber: Right. For the most part, unless they were really religious and they wanted to, um, do the circumcision.

Amber: But like, other than that, most of the younger people, younger generations, so they're just seeing uncircumcised, so they don't really know

Amber: any different. 

Vicki: Also, culturally and demo.

Amber: Yeah. Yeah, like myself, uh, it's mainly been circumcised

Coralie: Mm-hmm.

Amber: preference. Nah, I don't care

Coralie: Yeah.

Amber: as you know.

Vicki: Just bring it home. I.

Coralie: Well, I. Only been with circumcised partners. And what I think is this is something I didn't know because I'd never been with an uncircumcised person, like I didn't know this until early into this career, is that if they're erect, you wouldn't know anyways. You know? So if you are sleeping with [00:23:00] someone and they, you know, you didn't see it at the phallic stage, you might never know, right?

Amber: That's not always true.

Coralie: oh, 

Vicki: was gonna say, yeah. 

Amber: You gotta pull that.

Coralie: Oh, does it like hang out like a scarf? Like, I dunno, I gotta go find some uncircumcised porn to watch. That's, I'm gonna homework. I dunno.

Vicki: Search history is gonna be this week, so if anybody wants to search anything,

Vicki: she's already in the rabbit hole. Ask her.

Coralie: I've been with person for 30 years and I just don't remember much from before that.

Vicki: That's fair. So funny. Yeah.

Vicki: I have been around all the penises and, yeah, Amber's right. As long as we can make the things work together. Does not matter to me.

Vicki: Mm-hmm.

Coralie: Bodies are not problems to fix. Make sure that you're practicing self-compassion and remember that bodies aren't trends. [00:24:00] Avoid casual jokes about size, shapes, and if you are in public and you notice things like that happening, make sure that you are saying see something, say something.

Coralie: And celebrate diversity in private and in public conversations because the real issue isn't how we look. It's the unrealistic standards we're held to. So let's stop the shame one honest conversation at a time.

Amber: Thanks for pulling up a chair at our unapologetic brunch table today. If you enjoyed the conversation, don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave us a review. It's like tipping your server, but for podcasts. And hey, sign up for our weekly newsletter using the link in the show notes so you never miss the juiciest, most unfiltered chats we're serving up.

Amber: Remember, brunch isn't just about the mimosas, it's about the authentic connection and keeping it unapologetically real. Until next time, let's keep the brunch vibes alive and the conversation flowing.