Episode: 83 - Emotional Cheating: Is It Worse Than Sex?

Is emotional cheating actually cheating... or is it just friendship?

This week we're diving into one of the biggest relationship debates: emotional vs. physical cheating. Where's the line? Why do emotional affairs hurt so much? And are we quietly replacing our partners with someone else without even realizing it?

We talk about secrecy, texting, emotional intimacy, social media, trust, and why the answer isn't nearly as black and white as most people think.

Transcript

Coralie 0:00

Before we start throwing around words like worse and better, let's actually define what we're talking about here because a lot of people are emotionally cheating and then just calling it a friendship, which you know, like we have eyes. Um so what emotional cheating is, it's basically forming a deep emotional connection outside your relationship that starts replacing the connection you have with your partner. And it's not always obvious. It usually looks like you know, sharing personal thoughts or feelings that you are not sharing at home. That is the key difference. Um, when you are going to someone else for support or validation over your partner, if you're keeping your conversations private or downplaying the friendship, you know, you're hiding your phone. There's something you don't want your partner to see.

Amber 0:50

That's and I mean, this doesn't mean though, that you can't have friendships where you have private conversations. Absolutely. It's the context of said conversation, I feel like. Right. Totally.

Coralie 1:10

I'm Coralie from Vancouver, and I love digging deep and asking the questions no one will.

Amber 1:15

I'm Amber from Ontario. I'm blunt, cut through the fluff and gets straight to the point. And I'm Vicky from Manitoba.

Vicki 1:21

I'm all about real connection because intimacy starts with trust. Let's get into it.

Coralie 1:26

I don't know how it is for you, Amber, but um, you know, here, like I know Chad's password. He knows my like, it's no big deal. I don't have anything to hide. He doesn't have anything to hide. We just, you know, we don't go looking through each other's phones. But yeah, if we if we need to, it's there. I usually need to go through his when we're in the car. I'm like, let me answer that for you or let use his for the music so that I can record or whatever. But if you're if either one of us was suddenly like heads would roll. Yeah, heads would roll.

Vicki 1:56

It's that change in behavior, Zach.

Coralie 1:58

That's different, sudden switch. Yeah. That's yeah, because if you're deleting your messages or turning your phone away, you already know you're doing something wrong, right? Right. You know, yeah, or certainly on the line. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so there's a research article published in the Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy in 1992 that said emotional infidelity is typically defined by defined by secrecy, emotional intimacy, and exclusivity. So now with social media and texting, it's way easier to slip into it's just texting. Or just a little flirt. Like, you don't flirt, you don't intentionally flirt. And I realize that some people like their demeanor and how they talk it might come across as flirty. That doesn't mean they're flirting, right? Like some people just have that sort of more flirty sort of personality, but it doesn't mean they're flirting, you know? And I think also, too, as women, if you're friendly, you're called flirty, right? You can't even just be friendly without someone saying, Oh, she's flirting, just flirting. No, I'm just just freaking being me.

Vicki 3:03

Yeah. Right. Because if we're if we're not just being nice, then we're then we're bitches. Yeah. So it's like we can't wait.

Coralie 3:12

I know. Maybe we should be a flitch. I like that.

Vicki 3:16

That's our new name or the flirt.

Coralie 3:20

Uh, so the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy reports that 35% of women and 45% of men admit to emotional infidelity, but they don't label it as cheating until they get caught, anyways.

Vicki 3:36

Right. Right. I think that there's this um there's a fallacy that the the cheating portion only happens when there's sex. I think that there can be emotional infidelity, and I think that there are two players in that. If I know my friend who is male, is married, and we're having a deep personal conversation about their marriage, and not in a productive way, but in another phase of that, I'm walking a line. Right.

Amber 4:08

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that emotional cheating is so much worse than the physical, in my opinion.

Vicki 4:19

Mine too. And that's not a blanket. I have I have heard all kinds of opinions about this, and I'm sure you guys have as well, but lots of people feel like that physical factor is sort of the deal breaker. And for me, I would think that it would be the emotional factor for sure. Because you guys all know that in all in any relationship that I'm in, everything is a conversation. If there's a problem, let's talk about it. If you want to try that, let's talk about it. You want to add them? Okay, well, let's. I don't know, we're gonna do it, but we're gonna talk about it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. Everything is a conversation in my world nowadays because I'm 50 and here I am, right? Like I'm in my I'm not 50. I'm in my 50s and here I am.

Coralie 5:04

Uh yeah, I don't think I've ever been emotionally cheated on. I've been physically cheated on, like, but not with my husband, you know, with past relationships and we've been together for over 30 years. So it's really hard. Learn to remember that far back. But um, yeah, I've thought about it a lot and I just really can't decide. I can't decide what would be, you know, because like when I was physically cheated on in the past, I couldn't get that image out of my head. And that's why I knew like that relationship will never progress. And my husband and I had that conversation when we first started dating, because he'd been cheated on too, and it's like a major deal breaker for both of us because you can't get the image out, right? And then there's always the comparison and and whatever. Yeah, I don't know. Just both they're they're both shitty, you know, they're both shitty.

Vicki 5:48

Oh, for sure. But I have to wonder if the physical cheating portion that is always preceded with probably some emotional cheating anyway.

Coralie 6:02

Yeah, right.

Vicki 6:03

I mean, most people are not just falling into bed together. We know that that's a common excuse, but we don't, it doesn't fall in. So there's there's some lead up here, um, which would constitute probably emotional cheating. You know, I had a therapist one time, I was in a relationship where I was being accused of cheating, and and I was not. And I'll never forget it because she said to me, Do you think that you could meet with your male friends in a public space so that your partner wouldn't feel threatened? And I said, Sex with my partner is great. I can have an emotional affair in Tim Hortons if I want to. Right? So it's like it was an emotional piece that I was missing. And I was talking to my friends about it, and I was getting the male perspective while maybe there wasn't any cheating going on physically. I was definitely looking to them for guidance or questions. And I can see how it could have been constituted as emotional cheating, but for me, it was just information seeking. Like, what do I do here? How do I manage this? What do I uh right?

Amber 7:11

Well, and I think that information seek that there's a line. Like, there's a line. You could have a relationship male with a you know, male, female, female, female, whatever that looks like. Sure, it doesn't matter your sex. What matters is the context of what you guys are actually right talking about. Like you said, are you being productive? Like, is this an actual like here? I want to help you solve this problem you're having with your partner, yeah. Or is it let me fill the problem you're having with your partner?

Vicki 7:42

Right, right. Because let me tell you, in my life right now, my emotional needs are 90% met by the women in my life. And I don't plan on having sex with any of them.

Coralie 7:55

Too bad for them.

Vicki 7:57

It's possible. But no, I'm just kidding. No, no, no, no, no. But you know what I mean? Like, I just think that there is an emotional piece that we're missing, and sometimes we get that from our friendships, and not to take this in a completely different direction, but you know, look at relationship anarchy. For me, when I think look at relationship anarchy, I literally see it as everybody gets the equal amount of love, care, and concern from me, but just at different times. You know, it's kind of a love you're the one you're with sort of scenario. I'm not stopping what I'm doing with you guys because somebody else in my life needs something in this moment. They'll get me in a half an hour. Do you know what I mean? Like everybody sort of, it's very linear for me. So that being said, that's a completely different topic, but anyway, carry on.

Coralie 8:49

Well, the wild part is a lot of people don't even think they're cheating when they're doing this because it's harmless in their head. But when it comes out, it hits just as hard or sometimes harder than having actual sex. And you know, a lot of times too, when people, you're so right when you said that the emotional cheating proceeds. I mean, unless someone's just going and doing random hookups at a bar, right? There's definitely, you know, emotional cheating is like the gateway to physical cheating.

Vicki 9:17

And I think apps are making it harder, right? Oh, yeah. Um sorry, I shouldn't say harder because it's not hard to not be an asshole. Um, apps are making it more accessible to to be emotional because that connection, that conversation happens very quickly. I mean, we know from our previous episodes, I could toss that app on my phone right now and I could be in conversation in the next 15 minutes. Yes, yeah, right. That's different. That's that's made it way too streamlined. Absolutely.

Coralie 9:50

Yeah. So why do we think this messes people up so much?

Amber 9:56

Well, I think because people expect sex to hurt, like it's obvious, it's physical, it's clear, like there's no, there's no line. Like it's it's either you had sex when you were supposed to somebody else, or you didn't, right? But this emotional cheating, there's there's this weird line, like, and I feel like this could be a conversation, you know. For me, I had a client, he was male, and he knew I had a husband, and he had bought stuff off of me, and then one night he was messaging me and giving me feedback on said stuff, and then just blurted shit out about, you know, I really liked the way you looked in this video and this and that, and then like you know what I mean? And I was like, whoa, that's a test. Yeah, right? I just like right away, I have a husband, I'm happily married, and I sent that to him, and he's like, Oh, I'm so sorry, I apologize to yeah.

Vicki 10:53

My capacity as professional with you, thank you very much, sir.

Amber 10:56

Exactly, exactly. And then that next day, what because this was like late at night, and Paul was sleeping. The next day I looked at Paul, I said, So this happened, you know, absolutely, because I'm not I'm not willing to cross that line, but it's I could have just left it, I could have just left to be, and then all of a sudden, maybe like you said, Paul grabs my phone, he has my password, it doesn't matter. For what me thinking I I cut it off, it was fine.

Vicki 11:24

He might have looked at it going that will leave all kinds of question marks, right? Like he's just going, What what am I missing? What is no longer in this conversation thread? What forget it? Absolutely. Transparency and honesty are two different things, and I opt in for transparency all day long, 100%. Here's my phone.

Amber 11:44

Yeah, but I think that the emotional part of it is just it's for me, it's deeper. Like it's it's it's a huge betrayal of trust. Uh I don't know. And I can't I can't visualize things the way people do. So, like for me, somebody just having sex, like I feel like I could I could move past that. It wouldn't be easy, but I can move past that over the emotional.

Coralie 12:10

I couldn't move past any of it.

Amber 12:14

I just know I'm not telling Paul to go have sex with somebody else.

Coralie 12:17

Yeah, like I just know like the trust, like once the trust is gone, it's gone for me. Like, I can't rebuild. It would always be there in the back of my head, and that's whether it's you know, like a relationship or even a friendship. If someone betrays you, the trust is really, it's almost impossible to build back, you know? Yeah.

Vicki 12:38

Again, that's why I fall on transparency. If I'm thinking about doing something feeling away, we're talking about it because I would rather have the conversation to see how that's going to land with you, and vice versa. I would rather somebody come to me and say, these pieces are missing in our relationship right now. How do we bridge this gap? What does that look like? Now we're in a conversation. I would I for me, because I would rather rise to the occasion, I'll figure we'll figure it out. Let's work on that, let's let's do the things, or adjust and modify. I don't know, but I would rather at least be in a place of knowing than and than knowing after the fact. Does that make sense?

Amber 13:20

Yeah, like yeah, you just leave your partner going, what the hell? I just found this out. And you know, like you gave this other person your thoughts, your attention, your emotional energy. Like I was sitting right beside you, right? Or I was sleeping beside you in bed, you motherfucker. Like, you know what I mean? Like this stuff happens, yeah.

Coralie 13:45

And also, too, you know, I mean, we know this from our own lives and and our job, our businesses, but how many men don't open up to their partners?

Vicki 13:55

So then to go open up to someone else, yes, word, yeah, and I'm always gonna play devil's advocate. Here I am. This turns around. Sometimes the tables are turned. 100%, yeah, yeah.

Coralie 14:14

Oh, you're saying that women do it too.

Amber 14:17

Of course. Oh, yeah, no, I know.

Coralie 14:18

I'm just speaking from a woman's perspective. I'll never have been mad.

Vicki 14:23

Listen, listen. I know we love it when they're mad at us, but yeah.

Amber 14:31

So an interesting study that uh was out of the University of Nevada found that women reported more stress from emotional infidelity, whereas men reported more distress from sexual infidelity.

Vicki 14:44

Absolutely.

Coralie 14:45

That makes sense, totally makes sense, right?

Amber 14:49

Like, yeah, yeah, I could see that. Newer research does show that the gap is shrinking as relationship dynamics shift. And here's the part that people don't love hearing is that emotional affairs often come before physical ones. I mean, I feel that we've kind of yeah, that's common. Yeah, we yeah, yeah, you know. Um, like you said, you're not just randomly meeting up with somebody uh you've never met before and having sex with them. Maybe it's happening, but it's not as common. But they build that bomb first and they're crossing the line becomes a little easier and tie this into maybe a sex recession that you're having with your partner, or people are having less sex, less connection at home. We're connected to our phones so much, but we're disconnected from the people that are closest to us. Yep.

Coralie 15:43

Um, it makes sense too when you said that the research shows that the gap is shrinking as racial relationship dynamics change. And I just find that so fascinating from like a sociology standpoint, because as the dynamic between men and women and their relationships has shifted over time, of course, it makes sense that men are going to like tap into, oh, is my partner emotionally cheating? I I think it would almost, and this is just you know, maybe I'm wrong, but I imagine it would almost be easier for a woman to emotionally cheat because we're so emotional, because we're like we because not we're because we're emotional, but because we are so communicative about our feelings, right? Um, yeah, and I can I I just find that fascinating that the gap is shrinking because because society's progressing is basically it.

Amber 16:33

Yeah, I agree. So I think that's where people get stuck because on one hand, yeah, sex feels like the obvious betrayal, but this emotional, this feels personal, right? So, like you didn't just step out, you checked out. I mean, you could be checked out while you're sitting right beside each other, right? So yeah. Is one actually worse than the other, or are we all just arguing based on what would hurt us more? And I yeah.

Coralie 17:10

Listen, I'm gonna punch you in the fucking face and kick you out of my house regardless. Doesn't matter which one would hurt more, you're gone. Corley's line is so clear.

Amber 17:22

So clear. Like there's a hard boundary here.

Vicki 17:24

I'm like, well, yeah, yeah. And I'm over here murky as fuck. I'm like, oh, that's a conversation.

Coralie 17:33

We have strict boundaries here. There's no questions.

Vicki 17:37

Listen, and maybe it's because that's the experience that I've had that's provided me this perspective, right? Maybe my experience changes down the road and that looks different. I don't know. I have the right to change my mind. So don't come at me. I don't know. So some people say that physical cheating is worse because it's a clear boundary and it's being crossed and it's bold and it's in your face, right? Um, it's immediate, it's undeniable, it's kind of shock value, especially if you were to find out in an inadvertent way, right? Um, others say emotional cheating is worse because it's ongoing and it's intentional and it requires repeated choices. Research from the Kinsey Institute shows that people judge infidelity more harshly based on emotional investment, not just the physical behavior. So if you're prioritizing somebody else, sharing your inner world with them or pulling away from your partner, that's not just friendship anymore, right? Now we're talking about something that's a little more deep-rooted. And I think that sometimes when we look at people who are maybe in a polyamorous lifestyle, there are a lot of people where they have a prioritized relationship first. And that's because people want typically to feel prioritized. With polyamory, there can be all kinds of other things that are going on, and I think we've talked about polyamory before and different lifestyles, but I think that's kind of a big point because prioritizing is important, it makes you feel seen, and that's oftentimes, especially with women, part of the problem. So physical cheating can happen in a moment, right? It fell in.

unknown 19:17

I'm just kidding.

Vicki 19:20

Um, but emotional cheating, it really takes time, it takes effort, it takes momentum, right? But this matters too. Not every emotional connection is cheating. People are allowed to have friendships. You guys mentioned that earlier. Yeah, the difference is are you hiding it? Would your partner feel uncomfortable if they saw it? That's a big deal, right? If you wouldn't act that way with that person in front of your person, then what? Is it okay? You just you just found the line. I think so. I feel like noted. Um, are you replacing your partner emotionally? If the answer is yes, then you already know what that line is, which again, we nailed it.

Coralie 20:01

Yeah, I think you can, you know, sit there and ask yourself, would I be okay if my partner was the one doing this? If the answer is no, I mean that that's plain and simple. If your partner was the one doing this, had this conversation, had this message, slipped and had their dick fall in someone, would you be okay with it? Like if that was happening to you, you know, if the answer is no, yeah.

Amber 20:26

Hell, if the answer's maybe, I don't know. That that's also no.

Coralie 20:30

Right. Yeah, it's it's at least a conversation, you know. This is who I'm talking to, this is what we're talking about.

Vicki 20:39

Yeah, you know, I feel like that's a bit of a gray line though, because if we're talking about men are more triggered by physical cheating and women are more treat triggered by emotional cheating, then if we're really looking like it would it bother me if my partner did this. I mean, if I'm a man who's like, yeah, she slept with somebody, we'd get over it. You know, so I feel like that's kind of a that's kind of a swinging bridge. I don't want to ride on.

Coralie 21:08

I mean, you'd I guess it would be okay if you had like the clear boundaries, you know.

Vicki 21:13

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Again, which boils down to conversing with each other, right? So yeah, so crazy. So I feel like this is just one of those arguments where nobody actually agrees because it's it's gonna look different. Everyone's definition of betrayal is different, but at the end of the day, if you're hiding it, investing in it, and pulling away at home, you already know that something's off. So yeah, maybe it's not even about which is worse anymore.

Coralie 21:38

Here's the thing emotional cheating and physical cheating both break trust, but they do it in different ways. One can happen in a moment, and the other one is usually like this slow shift. And right now, with people feeling more disconnected than ever, less sex, less time, less more distractions, emotional cheating might be the one that slips in quietly and does the most damage over time. So maybe the real question isn't which one is worse? It's are you still choosing your partner emotionally and physically?

Amber 22:11

Thanks for filling up a seat at the Taboo Talk, not safe for brunch table. If today's episode made you laugh, think, or squirm a little, do us a solid follow rate, and leave a review. It's the podcast version of a good tip.

Vicki 22:24

While we're unfiltered conversations, hit the link in the show notes and sign up for our weekly newsletter. It's the stuff that didn't make it on the air.

Coralie 22:32

Until next time, keep it bold, keep it curious, and definitely keep it not safe for brunch.