Episode 54 – The Hidden Power of Asking for Help with ADHD

What if the secret to thriving with ADHD isn’t about more discipline—but about asking for help in the right way?

In this eye-opening episode of Grandma Has ADHD, host Jami Shapiro welcomes back ADHD coach, podcast host, and thought leader Jeff Copper to share his groundbreaking concept of the “Intangible Accommodation Axiom.”

Jeff reveals how ADHD is really an executive function impairment, why clarity—not motivation—is the true driver of action, and how direct, out-loud problem solving can change everything. From his own journey with dyslexia and late ADHD diagnosis to 15 years of hosting Attention Talk Radio, Jeff breaks down why talking it out is not weakness—it’s a natural, science-backed way to boost focus and productivity.

Whether you’re over 50, newly diagnosed, or simply tired of “trying harder,” this conversation will give you permission to ask for help without shame—and the tools to make it work.

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Grandma Has ADHD! We hope Jami's journey and insights into ADHD shed light on the unique challenges faced by older adults. Stay tuned for more episodes where we’ll explore helpful resources, share personal stories, and provide guidance for those navigating ADHD. Don’t forget to subscribe and share this podcast with friends who might benefit. Remember, Make the rest of your life the best of your life.

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Transcript

Have you ever thought, is this just me? When struggling to stay organized, start tasks, or manage time, for those of us over 50, these challenges might not be just aging. They could be ADHD hiding in plain sight for decades. I'm Jami Shapiro, host of Grandma has ADHD, and I'm building a community where your experiences matter.

Whether you are diagnosed, questioning or simply curious. You are not alone. Our Facebook group is filled with vibrant understanding. People over 50 who share their stories, strategies, and yes, even their struggles with plenty of laughter along the way. Ready to find your people. Join our growing Grandma has ADHD Facebook community.

Please like and subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and share it with someone who might need to hear. They're not alone because ADHD doesn't have an age limit and neither does understanding yourself better. Together, we're changing the conversation about ADHD after 50 come be part of the story.

[00:01:29] Jami Shapiro: Hi, and welcome to this episode of Grandma has ADHD. I am very excited to introduce you to a guest who has been here before and one who I am very appreciative of because he is,quite respected in the ADHD space. I met him at the International ADHD conference where he was a thought leader presenter, and he has been wonderful in introducing me to a lot of people who are, in the older adult, ADHD space.

[00:01:59] Jami Shapiro: But he reached out to me because he has something, really exciting that I'm excited to learn about and wanted to share it with you. So today I have the privilege of speaking with Jeff Copper, a credentialed, ADD, ADHD, and life coach, whose personal journey is as inspiring as it is relatable.

[00:02:18] Jami Shapiro: Jeff's story begins in childhood when he was diagnosed with dyslexia and learning disabilities. Challenges that would shape his entire approach to helping others, but his challenges didn't end with school. In the corporate sales career he faced familiar struggle of meeting goals and quotas while dealing with the isolation that comes from feeling different.

[00:02:39] Jami Shapiro: Like so many of us, he searched everywhere for professionals who truly understood his specific needs, only to find that there really isn't a one size solution. So his breakthrough came, when he was trying to fit into everyone else's box and started doing things. His way when other coaches were writing books and starting blogs, he created Attention Talk radio, and it's been far more successful than many traditional approaches.

[00:03:06] Jami Shapiro: He does not like labels. He coaches people. He focuses on understanding and natural processes, and showing how your way of thinking can become your greatest strength. So Jeff, there's a lot there, but I wanted to especially bring you on first to hear your story and then to talk about accommodation Axiom, and I'm for anyone who is watching on YouTube.

[00:03:30] Jami Shapiro: I have a dog, Benji, who has been properly walked and fed, but has decided that you know, when I am doing something that is kinda like a 2-year-old, that's when he needs my attention. So if you saw him pop in, what it does is, because I have ADHD, it throws off my attention and because I keep it real.

[00:03:48] Jami Shapiro: Here we are. So Jeff. You saw Benji pop in. Now, you know why, 

[00:03:52] Jeff Copper: first of all, that was a beautiful way of keeping it real. Like you did a hell of a good job on that. And second of all, everybody, I provide bios and people kind of read 'em, although you're not listening for my bio, and usually I'm like, just whatever.

[00:04:03] Jeff Copper: and Jamie put that together and can I have that when you're done? yes. That was better than anything I've ever written. So anyway, thank you for having me on and thank you for what you do. you were thanking me for helping you, but I'm really not helping you. I'm really helping other people because this Grandma has ADHD is such a space that nobody's really talked about and there's so many people out there that are of age that are suffering that don't know what's going on, and there's not a lot of really good information.

[00:04:28] Jeff Copper: it's really not like I'm trying to help you. It's like it was a given, like it's needed. So, thank you for what you do and thank for having me on. 

[00:04:34] Jami Shapiro: I appreciate that and I appreciate it, and I do wanna confess if we're keeping it real, that Claude is one of my accommodations and it's an AI tool, and it has been game changing for me and my experience with ADHD and I'm an amazing writer.

[00:04:48] Jami Shapiro: I mean, that's my super talent. But, I took your, bio from your website and I said, Hey, Claude. I have a guest on, Grandma has ADHD. Can you condense the bio? And then I'm pretty good extemporaneously and I just sort of changed it a little bit. So anyway, I appreciate, but I don't like to take credit.

[00:05:05] Jami Shapiro: There's my sense of social justice. I 

[00:05:07] Jami Shapiro: don't like to 

[00:05:08] Jami Shapiro: take credit if I didn't do it, so, but I did read it. I did read it, so thank you, Jeff. I appreciate it. And you're right, this is a message it's been amazing for me the more I'm speaking to people who work in with seniors and bringing this information to them, and there isn't a single time that I speak that someone's light bulb doesn't go off and they realize that they have, 

[00:05:27] Jeff Copper: yep.

[00:05:27] Jami Shapiro: Likely have ADHD and I had a woman stand up at a presentation last week and say, you just saved my marriage. So especially this generation of people who did not get diagnosed because it was only the little boy and they would outgrow it. So you've got, boomer women and Gen X women and silent generation women who

[00:05:45] Jami Shapiro: like to use your terms hiding in plain sight their whole lives. Yep. So anyway, so tell me a little bit about your story, because if people haven't listened to the episode, which we'll try to link into the show notes, but a lot of people just wanna hear it from the beginning.

[00:05:58] Jami Shapiro: just gimme a little bit of your ADHD story and then I wanna hear how we got to what we're doing today. 

[00:06:03] Jeff Copper: Sure. Absolutely. So I'm in my sixties now. I was born in the sixties. I got diagnosed with dyslexia in 1972. In fact, I still have the letter from the diagnosis.

[00:06:12] Jeff Copper: And when my dad or my parents went in and they got the letter from the doctor, they said, okay, great. He is got dyslexia. Now what do we do? And the guy said, well, find out what he's interested in and throw all your money at it. Which is a funny thing, but I was somewhat athletic back in those days. And fast forward, I'm in high school, I live in Northern Virginia.

[00:06:33] Jeff Copper: I live an hour from a swimming pool where I used to train four hours a day. I would wake up and drive an hour in to Fairfax, Virginia swim two hours, drive home back to school, drive back into school when school is over with swim for two hours and come home. And, I did that for basically high school.

[00:06:53] Jeff Copper: Before those years my parents had to drive me and so that's the dedication stuff that they did. Fortunately, my athletic career was substantial enough to get me on into college with a college scholarship because had I not done that, I probably, didn't have graduated from high school on my own, but I didn't take college prep.

[00:07:12] Jeff Copper: I couldn't handle Spanish, I still can't handle English. And chemistry was just too much. So I was just trying to get through. Once I got into college, and by the way, in high school and summer, there's always these tutors and stuff like that I won't go into the details, but every time I was with 'em, they got frustrated and I got frustrated and they didn't think I was trying and I was trying, I just didn't know what was going on.

[00:07:33] Jeff Copper: Right. When I got to college, I remember the first semester I was in tears 'cause they put me in sociology of sport. It's a social class that was basically looking at soccer around the world to understand the concept. And the reading was off the charts and I'm just in tears 'cause I can't keep up with it.

[00:07:47] Jeff Copper: And finally like, okay, what am I gonna do? And so I started reading just the first line of each paragraph And social books that are like run on. So I just ran the first top line and skimmed through it and then went to class and took notes and was able to get a decent grade. And so from that point in time forward, I finally departed.

[00:08:03] Jeff Copper: I just screwed what everybody else is saying, I'm not gonna do it. Also, there was a term paper that I had to write and rather than go to the library and do research, I said, wait a second. I can go interview the soccer coaches. Right. Ah, and quote them. And so my research was done verbally, not by going to the library and reading, So I went out into the world and tried to do the thing, and I just really started listening to myself and doing what I thought. So I end up in ADHD coaching, which is a longer story to kind of get into, and I found my home, I had got diagnosed with ADHD much later in life. Like I think I was like 35 or something like that.

[00:08:38] Jeff Copper: Mm-hmm. I will tell you that dyslexia is really my bigger problem, but when I got into the world and doing this by myself. I got into coaching and the creativity that's necessary to help people. And then when I had to get into the marketing of everything, back then you had to write a blog or you had to do a book.

[00:08:54] Jeff Copper: And I'm like, I can't write because this dyslexia is difficult. So I started my podcast and little did I know that I was gonna get education from the foremost experts in the world that you can't get from a book. So it's been 15 years. I've had produced episode every week for that period of time, and along the way it was interesting.

[00:09:13] Jeff Copper: I was at a conference in 2011 listening to Dr. Barkley talk about ADHD. And arguing that it was an executive functioning impairment. And at the time, if you took a test for executive functions and you had ADHD, it didn't show up as an impairment. And he was like, this is crazy. And so he argued from seven different points of view scientifically, how it had to be an executive function.

[00:09:38] Jeff Copper: So it's either. It's not an executive function or all the tests are wrong. So he started taking a look at the test and he started taking a look at the definition of executive function in his, I quote, it was a dog's breakfast, like anything goes. So he set out to define executive functions very precisely so we could determine what is and is not in an executive function.

[00:10:00] Jeff Copper: And I was enamored with it, saying, yeah, spot on. Of course. He says, well, where do you go on something like that? And he said, he started with self-regulation because all the experts agreed. Self-regulation was a major one. So he defined, executive functions and it murfed a couple times and, and changed.

[00:10:17] Jeff Copper: But the end of the day I was like, I've been studying it for years and saying there's something about this. Along the way I figured out ways to put people in simulated experiences so that they could understand what Dr. Barkley's saying. So if I had you make a meal, eat a meal, and clean a meal up, if you really focus on that experience, you're gonna have to be self-aware every second of that exercise.

[00:10:43] Jeff Copper: It takes a lot of energy. You're gonna have to calm down because you're gonna get frustrated. You're gonna have to restrain your urge to use your common hand. These are all executive functions, specifically defined by Dr. Barkley. So. 

[00:10:56] Jami Shapiro: Wait, before you go, 'cause I wanna make sure that, for anybody that doesn't, especially people that are new to this conversation, can you define executive function for people?

[00:11:05] Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. So they have a good understanding. Okay. 

[00:11:06] Jeff Copper: So, and this is important. I'm glad you got there. Executive functions according to Dr. Barkley's model, 'cause there's other models out there. They are a collection of mind tools that we use to work towards a goal over time. Now, that's his model. I like to simplify it.

[00:11:28] Jeff Copper: It's a collection of mind tools that we use to solve problems. Okay? Walking does not require executive functions. Eating doesn't, daydreaming, doesn't. Judging doesn't. We're specifically talking about solving everyday problems. And what I've simplified it is problems have two characteristics that are important.

[00:11:55] Jeff Copper: They're multifaceted, and at some level there's some ambiguity to it. 

[00:12:01] Jeff Copper: Now think about that multifaceted and ambiguous. What's planning? It's multifaceted and ambiguous. 

[00:12:09] Jeff Copper: How about managing time? It's multifaceted and ambiguous. How about making a decision? Like all of a sudden, wait a second.

[00:12:17] Jeff Copper: Everything that everybody's having a hard time with is multifaceted and ambiguous. In fact, I've gotten cocky enough to say is Jami, when people call me up for the first time inquiring about coaches, I'll just say, basically I can guarantee about 80% of your procrastination list at some levels rooted in ambiguity.

 If 

[00:12:37] Jeff Copper: I go on and state, there's a high correlation between uncertainty and avoidance, but there's also a high correlation between clarity and motivation. As long as it's not boring. If you know what to do, you'd be surprised at it. Which is very insightful. 'cause people come all the time that I need motivation.

[00:12:54] Jeff Copper: They're like, no you don't. You need clarity. Get the clarity and the motivation will come. And so these are just little insights that I'm sharing with you that if you go back and take a look at yourself. What you're doing. I'm explaining a lot of what the problems and stuff are, and that's the brilliance of his model.

[00:13:11] Jeff Copper: It sheds so much light on what's going on and what's more is it brings to the notion that ADHD is an executive function and impairment. One of the problems is if you don't think something's in an impairment you're not actually solving for the underlying problem. You're just trying to be like somebody you're not.

[00:13:32] Jeff Copper: I hear on the internet like, I feel like I'm an imposter. Well, you are, in my opinion. If you have ADHD and you're trying to be like a neurotypical, well you have an impairment. like I might wanna be able to read, but I can't. I need my glasses as an accommodation. And so studying the stage this and studying Dr.

[00:13:51] Jeff Copper: Barkley's model, I've really come to look at ADHD as an impairment. When I'm working with people, we define the executive functions. I try to help them see and then we problem solve. And today what I really wanted to come here is focus on a program that I put together, which is kind of complicated. I'm not gonna lie, details.

[00:14:11] Jeff Copper: It's called cognitive ergonomics from the inside out. It's a new field of engineering. Cognitive ergonomics exists, but this is from the inside out. But what we've used is this program as a means to look at ADHD and identify accommodations that are universal that help people with ADHD. Mm-hmm. And we don't have research on it yet, but I've turned to what we call Axiom.

[00:14:33] Jami Shapiro: I dunno if you remember in school you had proofs, you had theorems. I hated that stuff, but Yeah, that's, semi tuned out. 

[00:14:39] Jeff Copper: Well through the complicated words. but basically I'm gonna walk through this axiom and I wanna talk about because coming here today, I wanted to let people know what this is all about and explain the ramifications of it.

[00:14:52] Jeff Copper: So basically it goes like this, and this is what we call our intangible accommodation. Axiom. Executive functions are a collection, or ADHD is an executive function impairment. Executive functions are a collection of mind tools that we use to solve problems. 

[00:15:08] Jeff Copper: Problems are multifaceted, ambiguous.

Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:11] Jeff Copper: So people with ADHD have trouble with planning, making decisions, managing time, et cetera. 'cause they're multifaceted, ambiguous. Thus, we understand why they struggle. Now here's the cool part. The leading views in cognitive science agree that language was derived as a means to solve shared problems.

[00:15:35] Jeff Copper: Think about it. Mm-hmm. It would've never come about. Mm-hmm. Never. There never had been a need for it, except for, as a community of humans, we needed to solve shared problems. 

[00:15:48] Jami Shapiro: I'm gonna pause with you for a second. I'm so sorry. Did you hear the barking? 

[00:15:54] Jeff Copper: Yep. 

[00:15:55] Jami Shapiro: Okay, we're gonna pause. I'm gonna deal with that.

Hey there. Amazing listeners. Get ready because something incredible is coming your way. And trust me, you are not going to wanna miss this. I am thrilled to announce my very first virtual book signing event for this explains so much. And here is the best part. I'm not doing this alone. I'll be joined by someone extra special.

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See you October 26th.

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[00:19:02] Jami Shapiro: So thank you for, indulging my pause. I have to share with the audience that, Benji, my dog, there's no safe place to record this house. no matter what I do, something is gonna happen. Welcome to ADHD, right? There's just always some unpredictable thing that happens, but as Jeff acknowledged, you're keeping it real.

[00:19:22] Jami Shapiro: And I said, Jeff, when I keep it real and I show people that it's okay to go out into the world and not be perfect, then that allows you to do the same. And so thank you for acknowledging that. And to all of you who are listening, you do not have to be perfect. In fact, in ADHD coaching, we say, perfect poisons progress.

[00:19:41] Jami Shapiro: Yep. So anyway, and since we did go ahead and take the pause, I just wanna invite everybody if you are enjoying this podcast, to like it and share it with your friends and subscribe and give comments. And Jeff will definitely put his contact information, out verbally and we'll put it into the show notes.

[00:19:57] Jami Shapiro: But you were distracted from what you were saying. Are you gonna be able to get back to it 

[00:20:02] Jeff Copper: a hundred percent. 

[00:20:03] Jami Shapiro: Awesome. I love it. I do wanna say one more thing that when you were talking before you go on something that you said about your doctor saying to your parents when they gave you the dyslexic, diagnosis that they need, that you needed to find something that you were interested in, which is really so ahead of its time because ADHD is interest driven and if we are interested in something, we can get it done.

[00:20:25] Jami Shapiro: Whether it's write a book, swim, even if it means you have to drive an hour every day, and that's such a misconception about ADHD, is that, you know, we can't focus on anything not true if it intersects. And so I think that was pretty brilliant, even though, I don't know that your doctor knew the association.

[00:20:42] Jami Shapiro: No, 

[00:20:42] Jeff Copper: no. Part of the underlying thing on it is if he's interested, he is good at do it because of self-esteem and confidence issues. That's the underlying driver of it. It's not just the interest, but if he's there. Support him in what he does because he needs that level of confidence in that part of his world to anchor some of the other stuff.

[00:20:58] Jeff Copper: And, as time went on when swimming wasn't going good, my life was a wreck. When it was going time, everything else is stable. So anyway. 

[00:21:06] Jami Shapiro: Yeah. And I do also wanna say that ADHD, a lot of the issue with it is that there's so much self-esteem and shame is, tied up to it. And even in a group full of successful people who have ADHD, when you ask the question, do you have that negative voice in your head?

[00:21:19] Jami Shapiro: Do you have imposter syndrome? it's just inevitable, unfortunately, but especially for my audience of people who are coming to this conversation. later in life you were diagnosed at 35, I was 45. now I'm talking to women who are 65, 75 years old that are realizing it. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:34] Jami Shapiro: So, okay, we'll go back. I digress. Thank you. 

[00:21:37] Jeff Copper: So let's come back to the shame thing. 'cause part of today is to help, reveal the mystery on that. So we're walking through the logic of this thing that I'm discussing and where we are is, I'm gonna go back. The leading views of cognitive science is that language is actually derived socially to solve shared problems.

[00:21:58] Jeff Copper: I'm hungry. I need to eat. I can't kill that thing unless, Jami, you go on the other side of it and we kind of cornered, right? Mm-hmm. So when you think about that, if language was derived to solve shared problems back then, direct communication, face-to-face interaction is the most basic form of solving problems.

Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:19] Jeff Copper: Stop. And think about this. If ADHD is a problem solving impairment. Language was derived specifically to solve problems, and direct communication is the most fundamental form then it's a universal accommodation. All human beings have been using it for thousands of years to solve 

[00:22:42] Jeff Copper: Thousands of years. 

[00:22:44] Jeff Copper: But what I'm coming to say is that if ADHD is an executive functioning impairment. Logically, those with ADHD would need to problem solve directly more than neurotypicals. Neurotypicals already do this. The issue is because of the impairment, those with ADHD would need more.

[00:23:11] Jeff Copper: This transforms the way we look at ADHD and public policy, could you imagine if I can get this adopted with Americans with Disabilities Act and you're at work having the employer have somebody work with you in the morning to talk about what you're gonna get done that day as an accommodation. 

Yeah, 

[00:23:34] Jeff Copper: it's not about behavioral training, it's about having that accommodation.

[00:23:40] Jeff Copper: And so one of the things I'm gonna digress a little bit. A lot of people with ADHD, they talk a lot, okay, Dr. Barkley. No, that's 

[00:23:47] Jami Shapiro: not true. 

[00:23:49] Jeff Copper: Dr. Barkley's model, I'm oversimplifying. Executive functions are a collection of mind tools to solve problems. Working memory is a subset verbal working memory, which is self-talk.

[00:24:00] Jeff Copper: Which is one of his executive functions. It's part of it because it's impaired. Many with ADHD, not to talk. It's not to think. They'll talk, talk, talk sometimes to people. They'll solve their own problem without the other person saying anything. What I'm saying is, is that this is kind of interesting because nobody taught them how to do it.

[00:24:20] Jeff Copper: They learned to do that instinctively because they're rewarded with higher levels of performance. 

[00:24:25] Jeff Copper: And in 

[00:24:26] Jeff Copper: our world, as ADHD coaching, we talk about verbal processes all the time. So having the ability to talk out loud with somebody to solve problems is like kind of revolutionary. 'cause we don't think in those terms.

[00:24:39] Jeff Copper: Now, what's interesting, Jami. And I'm gonna get to some stuff that is anytime you've got a problem, if it's ADHD or anything else, where are you sent to go have direct conversations. So if you're at school and you have a problem, you go to the tutor. Talk to the teacher, you go to tutor, special ed teachers.

[00:24:59] Jeff Copper: You're going to them to have direct conversation to help you figure out how to solve those problems. You go to therapist, you go to coaching. Coaching. They're direct conversations, particularly coaching, 'cause it's goal-oriented and the workplace. You have mentors, you have one-on-ones, you begin to think about it.

[00:25:16] Jeff Copper: The go-to accommodation when everybody's struggling is to have a direct conversation with somebody else. And what I'm grateful for you're giving me the platform that I can say this accommodation has been hidden in plain sight for thousands of years yet. Emotionally Dr. Barkley's model explains this.

[00:25:37] Jeff Copper: People don't want to need help, so they refrain from going to get help. They feel shame asking or needing to go talk out loud. And so what I'm trying to say is just look around you neurotypicals are doing it too all the time. You go to meetings at. You're solving problems. It's everywhere. And if you start to take a look at your successes in your life, a lot of times, and there's some nuances to this is that you'll find is that some of the times there's when you had help and other people working with, and so it's one of those things that's so ubiquitous, it's obvious, but emotionally we don't see it because neurotypicals, they judge the world through the lens of their own experience.

[00:26:18] Jeff Copper: They need it. But you need it more. They don't get why you need it more. And so for people with ADHD, if I can give them permission to go do this, they can go do it and they can thrive. My mom said for years, success solves a lot of problems, right? Mm-hmm. So if you struggle with ADHD, and I can give you the logic.

[00:26:41] Jeff Copper: Like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And help encourage people to go solve those problems and they notice that it works. We can reverse that cycle. But here's what's particularly motivating to me and why I'm so grateful having you, you having me on the show to talk about this. I cannot tell you how many times I've been coaching people that are coming to me later in life.

[00:27:04] Jeff Copper: Your sweet spot. 

[00:27:06] Jeff Copper: They had a family, they went through school, they got married, they had a family. You have kids and as time going on, the kids are kind of gone. They're no longer going to work. And maybe there's been a divorce or a death in the family and now they find themselves all by themselves.

[00:27:20] Jeff Copper: They're struggling more with ADHD than they did before. 

[00:27:24] Jeff Copper: Now, certainly age doesn't help ADHD, but they're dumbfounded. I'm going, what if you realize is that the accommodation was built into your world, it's just no longer there. If you can go and we can recreate that world, you can get back to what you were doing.

[00:27:41] Jeff Copper: Hmm. You're struggling with that a little bit, but let's pause for a second. What I've just described, this intangible accommodation action begins to explain certain quotes. Like Thomas Brown said many years ago, as the need for independent work increases ADHD productivity decreases. 

Hmm. 

[00:28:03] Jeff Copper: Annie Rogers, the general manager at Attitude Magazine, was in a newsletter I think in April, and she said ADHD is amplified.

[00:28:12] Jeff Copper: Or muted based off of the environment. What would explain that people, Hmm. Before, when the pandemic hit, just before, well, kind of at lockdown, I always think, and I'm gonna be at a job in 60 days because I'm a privileged, I'm not cheap. Like people are gonna struggle with this. And I'm like, I was preparing for the worst.

[00:28:34] Jeff Copper: That was wrong. My phone lit up like a Christmas tree. People were calling and they were saying, I'm not motivated. 

[00:28:42] Jeff Copper: I'm not productive. And I was arguing, oh no, you were going to work in school. The intangible accommodation. The invisible accommodation that's in that environment that's no longer there anymore was you had people that you were interacting, you didn't know it, so nothing changed.

[00:29:01] Jeff Copper: You were as motivated, but because of the impairment, problem solving became harder. And you began to escape to other things. And like when you start to think about this, It's kind of like, oh my God, the world's not flat. It's actually round. Like we're, we think about this.

[00:29:17] Jeff Copper: And it's like, again, I like using the word it's hidden in plain sight, but Dr. Barkley's model and some of the things that I've been doing are the first things that we've been able to use to bring tangibility to actually see what's been there for a long time. And again, what I think is really relevant for the crowd that you work with.

[00:29:37] Jeff Copper: ' cause you're passionate about helping these people, and I think sometimes they're suffering more. It's that if you had people in your world and they're not there anymore, getting back out and finding the people to collaborate with is really, really helpful. And by the way, when you go out into the world.

[00:29:55] Jeff Copper: Sometimes people get intimidated like, oh my God, you think you're going out asking for help? And like you are like poor little me. But there's a lot of people out there that like affirmation, they like to mentor, they really like to help you. and as long as they don't tell you what to do.

[00:30:11] Jeff Copper: In other words, you say, listen, I need to brainstorm on how to do this. I'm not looking for the answer. I would be interested in your experience when you ask somebody for advice. And they give it to you. It's implied that you do it and you feel pressure. But if you say, what's your experience? You can take what you like. And what you like. And so going full circle is this revelation, is that having direct conversation in the face of problem solving is a game changer. It's hidden in plain sight. Think about it. You come home, it's a Friday. You look at your spouse and say, what are we doing this weekend?

[00:30:49] Jeff Copper: You start talking about what you're gonna do. You're making a plan. 

[00:30:53] Jeff Copper: If you'll notice decluttering. Is far more cognitively effortful than you realize. When you take a look at an item, you say, do I need that or not? About 10% of the time it's clearly trash. 10% of the time you're like, yeah, I need that.

[00:31:06] Jeff Copper: 80% of what's left, I don't know. here's the real challenge though. Where's its home? In other words, if you're gonna put it somewhere. Where are you gonna put it? Where you're going to remember it? 

 that's multifaceted and ambiguous. I remember I was coaching a guy in New York City one time, he was in a studio apartment.

[00:31:25] Jeff Copper: I knew he had a small kitchen and I called him up and he is like, Hey, I had a birthday over the weekend. He said, it's kind of cool. I got a waffle maker. And I said, where the hell are you gonna put that? 'cause I already knew he didn't have a good kitchen. He goes, I dunno, I guess I'll put it under my bed, 

[00:31:39] Jami Shapiro: which I'll never remember.

[00:31:40] Jeff Copper: Well that's coaching ends. Two years later, I get an email from Hey Jeff, I found my waffle maker. It's under my bed. The cognitive. My point of this is, when he's stopping to think, where am I going to put this? And I'm going to remember that, that's using your executive functions and you're trying to solve a problem that is so difficult that you just escape it.

[00:32:00] Jeff Copper: So a lot of times, clutter. Everything is where it's home is where it's actually laying. And I'm not trying to justify it, but if you've noticed, whenever you declutter with somebody else, you're collaborating and it's helping you make decisions to put stuff away. So how can you implement what I've been talking about tomorrow?

[00:32:20] Jeff Copper: Declutter. If you try, when you organize anything, most people don't think about this to organize anything. There's multiple ways to organize it. The first thing you should do is think of all the ways I could organize it. Which one should I do first? Typically you're using your working memory. Then once you choose an organizational system, you organize within it all too often that thinking of all the different organizational systems or the way you could do it is too difficult.

[00:32:51] Jeff Copper: So people escape and they dive into an app not realizing it's not gonna work 'cause they didn't think through it. However, if you'll notice, if you ever sit down with people. And you're working with them together. A lot of times it makes it easier for you to organize and establish systems. Again, I'm just describing what's worked.

[00:33:11] Jeff Copper: For thousands of years. And again, anything I'm saying is is a, it's not gonna work in every sense, but the generality is it, it works if you take a look at it. And there's some exceptions to that. And the point really is if I can say, listen, my axiom validates what you're doing. You can see that it's hidden in plain sight.

[00:33:30] Jeff Copper: You've got ADHD. Look at all the times where you were getting some help. It worked. If you can let go. And actually embrace this. It's a game changer. A game changer. 

[00:33:41] Jami Shapiro: So just so that I can make sure that I follow and the audience follows, what you're basically saying is that you need to be willing to ask for that help.

[00:33:51] Jami Shapiro: have somebody, especially if for those people who are living by themselves, their kids have left, their spouse has died, or they're divorced, they don't have that person to bounce ideas off of. And it is totally okay to say, Hey, I could use a sounding board or somebody to process this with. am I getting that right?

[00:34:09] Jeff Copper: Hundred percent. So let me give you some language. Hey, Jami, you got a minute. Hi, Jeff. Hey. you're a thought leader. I'm trying to work through, a marketing thing on, motivation. I was wondering if I could kind of pick your brain for a couple minutes or you could help me think through it.

[00:34:26] Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. 

[00:34:28] Jeff Copper: Now, notice what I did. As I said, you're a thought leader. 

[00:34:31] Jami Shapiro: Yeah. you gave me that pat. 

[00:34:33] Jeff Copper: Yeah, people like that. 

[00:34:35] Jami Shapiro: Oh yeah. 

[00:34:35] Jeff Copper: They like affirmation. They like to be looked up to. And it's true. I'm not lying. I would do that with you. I kind of done that with you before in the past, right?

[00:34:42] Jeff Copper: And I'm saying, can you help me think through this? Right? Or Hey bro, listen, can I borrow your brain for a minute? I do that to my brother all the time, right? And basically, I need to talk out loud through something with him, but I'm calling, Hey, can I borrow your brain? Or, Hey, can I bounce my logic off of you?

[00:34:58] Jeff Copper: I was thinking this, these are very simple ways that you're approaching people. I know I'm doing it. I'm calling to talk out loud, I actually, I did this this morning with one of my virtual assistants and I said, you're not gonna solve my problem, but I need to brainstorm on this a little bit.

[00:35:13] Jeff Copper: And talk out loud. And if anything like stands out to you, let me know. So I'm asking permission. I explained what I was doing, she was happy to do it. And a couple times in the past where she done it, she's actually pulled out a nugget that I didn't expect that really helped me. Again, you'll notice in my approach is kind of borrow your brain, kind of you got a moment, kind of talk through something with you acknowledging you people actually do this in regular.

[00:35:37] Jeff Copper: Oh, the regular world. But a lot of people are, you're so focused on, oh my God, I'm so needy, or I'm so vulnerable. You look past the fact that this happens all the time, and if you can begin to see it, just say, Hey, Jami got a minute. Can I talk out loud? You might say no 'cause you're busy or you'd say yes, but if you say no, I go find somebody else.

[00:35:58] Jeff Copper: If you say yes, I was given permission to do it. And again, as long as I'm doing that, it's can be as simple as that and it really can be a game changer. In fact, I like to tell you this story. It's a true story, 

[00:36:09] Jami Shapiro: okay? 

[00:36:09] Jeff Copper: I'm coaching this guy. he's flips houses in real estate and he had a business partner when he started, but they separated and so he is starting to have some issues and I'm talking to him and we call people that talk out loud verbal processors, and I was like, we're coaching one day.

[00:36:23] Jeff Copper: And I got to the end of it. I'm like, you're just, you're processing out loud. He says, I don't like to be a verbal processor. Said, I don't know what to tell you. It's an accommodations. We got off the phone. Five days later. He calls me, Hey, Jeff. Hey man, how you doing? Great. Guess what? What? I'm driving down the road and I'm kind of like, I'm going circles on a problem.

[00:36:41] Jeff Copper: Like I've been on all morning. All of a sudden, like you're like sitting on my shoulder going, dude, you're a verbal processor. And I'm like, Ugh. He said, I looked up and I saw a Walmart sign, so now he said, I pulled in and I walked into the Walmart. And, you know what they have in Walmarts, what? I got greeters.

[00:36:56] Jeff Copper: I go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they do. I walked up and the Walmart greeter said, Hey, can I help you? He said, yeah. Where are your mops? Actually, tell you what. Can I talk out loud for a minute? The guy said, yes. He said, I talked to the guy for 90 seconds. I solved my own problem, thanked him, and I'm calling you from the parking lot.

[00:37:12] Jeff Copper: I love it. this is a funny story in as much as you can find strangers. And do something like that. Yeah. The guy helped them. But you're not gonna see that stuff that's hidden in plain sight. If you're not recognize it or if you have an emotional resistance, the moment you cross over and you own it, you can begin to see all this stuff.

[00:37:34] Jeff Copper: And you know, Jami, one of the things we speak at a lot of summits and webinars and stuff like that. There's a lot of thought leaders out there, and if you ever watch most of them and listen to their story, most of them have surrendered. To the fact that they have ADHD. Yes. And they've got a team of people around them to help them.

[00:37:50] Jeff Copper: Yes. And they thrive. 

[00:37:52] Jami Shapiro: Yes. 

[00:37:53] Jeff Copper: And again, if you'll hear, I'm beating this drum, if you've got ADHD, a lot of times it's surrendering yourself to the impairment and embracing. Yeah, really using other people and it's like a monkey will jump off your back and what my hope is that you had me on today and then I'm reaching one, maybe two people that go, oh my God.

[00:38:18] Jeff Copper: How did I not see that? And they let go of their emotions and they begin to experiment with this and as they do it, I think that we could change a couple people's lives today just for the opportunity of helping reveal what's been hidden in plain sight for thousands of years. 

[00:38:33] Jami Shapiro: Yeah. I love this 'cause I'm sitting here of course thinking of myself and by the way, I did not interrupt you, which, when you have ADHD, somebody gets excited about something.

[00:38:41] Jami Shapiro: Yep. And before we started our conversation, I wish. Speaking of accommodations, I said, let me grab my paper and pen so I don't forget anything because that's always my concern. Like, you say something and I'm gonna Totally, and I sometimes wish I could go through life with that paper and pen, just always in my hand.

[00:38:59] Jami Shapiro: but I will tell you a couple of things. First of all, when, I speak now to audiences, even if it's not on ADHD, which I speak a lot on decluttering and downsizing and organizing, and I will start the conversation with I just wanna let you know I have ADHD Here's what's gonna happen. You're going to see me lose a word.

[00:39:18] Jami Shapiro: I'm gonna be standing. You're gonna see me lose a thought if your phone goes off, you know? And I said, I used to take a sip of water and stand there and panic and try to think, what was I saying? What was I saying? Now I'm just gonna ask you what I was saying. And everybody laughs and they support me and they cheer me on.

[00:39:33] Jami Shapiro: And that's a big part of my why is hey, this is the way our brains were made. It's not a bad brain. it's just a brain. I love, Ned Hallowell, Ferrari brain bicycle breaks analogy. So let's stop beating ourselves or calling it a disorder. So, number one, but back to what you were saying about the verbal processing, I am a verbal processor.

[00:39:53] Jami Shapiro: I will call my manager of my company and start telling her things that I really shouldn't be telling her yet. Right. Like, I'm just thinking about it and I'm just, going through it. So you're like, now. Now I'm understanding why I'm doing so much of that, but I wanted to share one, two other things.

[00:40:08] Jami Shapiro: One is I remember listening to a podcast when, the man said, how many of you, like to ask for help? And he said, it's less than 10% of people. Well raise their hand and say they like to ask for help. But then he asks the audience, how many of you like to give help? And it's the majority of the audience.

[00:40:24] Jami Shapiro: We are giving somebody a gift when we allow them to help us and we need to remember that. So, we are a reciprocal society. 

[00:40:32] Jeff Copper: Stop everybody. Did you hear what she just said? Say it again. Say it again Slowly, Jami, 

[00:40:41] Jami Shapiro: that most of us don't feel comfortable asking for help. We will not ask for it yet.

[00:40:47] Jami Shapiro: The majority of us want to be helpful to other people. we feel good about that, and we are a reciprocal society, and so we are giving somebody a gift when we ask them for help. 

[00:40:59] Jeff Copper: Yeah. So everybody, did you hear what she said? All of you are having an emotional reaction because you don't wanna ask for help.

[00:41:06] Jeff Copper: But if you look at the evidence, it is completely opposite of your feelings, which by the way, your feelings. I talk about feelings as being the physical manifestation of an emotion, and emotion is really nothing more than a reflex. 

Mm-hmm. Your 

[00:41:19] Jeff Copper: feelings are a survival mechanism, but they betray you. They betray you often, and this is a perfect example.

[00:41:28] Jeff Copper: Jami just said, take it to the bank. People want to help you. Sorry, Jami. I just had to, that was just brilliant. I had to make sure that everybody got that. 

[00:41:37] Jami Shapiro: I love that. I love that. And, that's so true. So thank you for pulling that. And that's also why I don't wanna do this podcast by myself.

[00:41:42] Jami Shapiro: I could sit here and, you know, I've done, I think too episodes on my own. It's not my thing. I need this. and then the one other thing that I wanted to say was a perspective that I learned, and that is like, here is my finger on my nose. you see the finger on my nose, right? I can't see the finger on my nose right until it's pulled away.

[00:42:01] Jami Shapiro: And so you are able to look at me from a distance that I cannot see when I'm only in my field of vision. So I also think, I mean, there's so much to it. we could go on and on about like, we are pack animals. We are meant to be with other people. We are, I mean, that's how we are created.

[00:42:18] Jami Shapiro: We can't even, reproduce without another person, right? Like that's just who we are. A 

[00:42:25] Jeff Copper: hundred percent. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah. 

[00:42:26] Jami Shapiro: So, I think I really like this. You're right. This is an aha, a definite aha. And, I wanna say one more thing about the decluttering, 'cause you just hit my zone of expertise and for people with ADHD, the reason that we struggle so much more with clutter is to your point, we are out of sight, out of mind.

[00:42:44] Jami Shapiro: So if we don't see it, we don't remember that we have it. And one of the things that I tell people is when you are decluttering. Think of the first place you would go to put it and put it there, and if you don't even remember that you have it, maybe you don't really need it.

[00:43:02] Jeff Copper: Well said. Very well said. Yeah, 

[00:43:04] Jami Shapiro: very well said. So, this was an amazing interview. Again, I took a big nugget away from you the last time with technology, by the way, when we discussed, get discussed that, we're technological tourists in a technologically native land for our children and grandchildren and, Anyway, so anything else? First of all, how can people find you? I know you're dig coaching. 

[00:43:25] Jeff Copper: Yeah. My, website is dig coaching practice. If you go there, you can access my YouTube channel, my podcast, my blogs and all that stuff. If the fundamental concept that I'm here. You're like an inquiring mind or even an engineer like stuff.

[00:43:38] Jeff Copper: If you click on services, I have a program called Cognitive Ergonomics from the inside out. It's a new field of engineering. I have a program, it's observational training program. It's really just basically using attention scope and Dr. Barkley's model in a way that you can look at ADHD in a very factual way.

[00:43:55] Jeff Copper: It's incredibly revealing. it's a game changer and I'm trying to get special ed teachers, therapists, doctors, HR specialists, disability specialists. it's really for anybody. So, again, if you dislike the outcome, that's great. If you're really curious, check that out. the last thing that I wanna kind of wrap up with that I.

[00:44:13] Jeff Copper: I come on these things a lot and people like they want actionable items and how can I translate this? And what I really wanna emphasize is you can translate it by just looking around and recognizing that people want you to come ask for help. That in your life you've been successful when you collaborate with other people, and that most of what's, got you kind of shut down are your emotional reaction to this.

[00:44:40] Jeff Copper: So the trick really is can you see the evidence and look at the facts to override your feelings to implement what works? As I tell people, I can tell you this all day long, but facts are facts and they're undisputed. The question is, if you go out in your world and you look at the facts you might find that your feelings are deceiving.

[00:45:00] Jeff Copper: You can you cross over because there's a whole different world on the other side. And so you can implement this every day, but the underlying challenge, the hidden challenge is your emotional reaction and resistance to want help. And I'm saying is that look at all the people with ADHD that are successful.

[00:45:16] Jeff Copper: They've surrendered themselves, they got help around. You can do it too. 

[00:45:20] Jami Shapiro: Hmm, absolutely. This is a great interview. thank you so much and I can tell, you're lit up and when somebody with ADHD has like, found the thing Yep. it is infectious. And and that's one of the things I do love about our brains is that we're able to sort of like look at where's something missing that I could, put the pieces together or, where can I solve a problem?

[00:45:40] Jami Shapiro: And, that, as you know, is a big part of my journey and story. So thank you. All for listening. at Jeff, I had shared with you, I have a book that is coming out October 1st, so I have been putting a lot of energy into that, but I am planning to go back to my grandma has ADHD Facebook community now that the book is off my plate and really, really help other people find community and find each other.

[00:46:01] Jami Shapiro: So find us at the Grandma has ADHD Facebook page. And again, please like and subscribe this podcast and share it because it's the only way we're ever going to get the word out. ADHD does not stop when we are no longer little boys. Right? 

[00:46:16] Jeff Copper: And Jami, again, on behalf of the ADHD community, particularly elderly, thank you for what you do.

[00:46:21] Jeff Copper: You're a great asset and a true gem. So thank you. 

[00:46:24] Jami Shapiro: I appreciate that. So again, thank you all for tuning in and recognize that life doesn't stop because you have ADHD and there's nothing wrong with you. You're not broken. It's just all about learning how to really utilize this magnificent brain you were born with.

[00:46:39] Jami Shapiro: So thanks so much. 

Alright.

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