Episode 73 - Consciously Aging and Living Powerfully with ADHD

With over 30 years of experience working with adults, couples, and families with ADHD, James Ochoa, LPC brings a rare combination of clinical insight and lived experience to this episode of Grandma Has ADHD. As an ADHD clinician, author, and founder of the Life Empowerment Center, James joins Jami to explore what it truly means to age with ADHD, especially when the diagnosis comes later in life, and how finally naming it can profoundly change the way we age, relate to others, and care for ourselves.

James shares both his professional expertise and personal lived experience, opening up about his own adult ADHD diagnosis and how it reshaped his understanding of emotional regulation, identity, relationships, and purpose. Together, Jami and James explore the emotional complexity of late diagnosis, including the grief for what could have been, the relief of finally having an explanation, and the unexpected joy of self-recognition.

This episode also dives into the often overlooked emotional distress syndrome of ADHD, how aging and hormonal changes such as menopause can intensify symptoms, and why curiosity, compassion, and meaning matter more than productivity as we grow older. James introduces powerful reframes, including mining the gems of your life story, embracing recognition euphoria, and imagining a future where ADHD is not something to fix, but something to understand and work with.

If you have ever felt like you were too late to understand yourself, this conversation is a reminder that self-discovery does not expire, and that your later years can be some of the most connected, adventurous, and fulfilling of your life.

Disclaimer

This episode discusses ADHD, menopause, hormone replacement therapy, mental health, and medical topics. It is intended for education and awareness only and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Always consult a qualified healthcare provider before making medical decisions. If you are experiencing emotional distress or a medical emergency, please seek immediate help.

 Resources & Links Mentioned:

• Focus Forward by James Ochoa – exploring the emotional and mental stress of ADHD
• When the Shiny Wears Off (upcoming book by James Ochoa)
• You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid, or Crazy?! – Kate Kelly & Peggy Ramundo
• Erik Erikson’s 9th Stage of Development (Gerotranscendence)
• jamesochoa.com – James Ochoa’s website
• Grandma Has ADHD Community & Resources
  https://grandmahasadhd.com
  Join the Grandma Has ADHD Facebook Community
• Jami Shapiro – ADHD Coaching & Sparkler Society
  https://jamishapiro.me
• Silver Linings Transitions
  (ADHD-informed organizing & move management)
  https://silverliningstransitions.com

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Grandma Has ADHD! We hope Jami's journey and insights into ADHD shed light on the unique challenges faced by older adults. Stay tuned for more episodes where we’ll explore helpful resources, share personal stories, and provide guidance for those navigating ADHD. Don’t forget to subscribe and share this podcast with friends who might benefit. Remember, Make the rest of your life the best of your life.

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Transcript

[00:02:31] Jami Shapiro: Hello, and get ready to meet someone who's been in the ADHD trenches for over two [00:02:40] decades. Our guest today founded the ADHD clinic in Austin back in 1999, transforming it into the Life Empowerment Center, a [00:02:50] vibrant hub for adult ADHD treatment, executive coaching and family therapy with experience spanning psychiatric hospitals, prisons and treatment centers. [00:03:00] He's seen ADHD from every angle. When COVID hit in 2020, he didn't just adapt, he thrived embracing his [00:03:10] ADHD, love of shaking things up. He pivoted to a flexible teletherapy practice now connecting with clients across time zones and continence. And here's [00:03:20] the ADHD twist.

[00:03:21] Jami Shapiro: He lives with his wife Edie Vi, who's also an ADHD life coach, so you can imagine their whole household is never [00:03:30] boring between collecting custom boots, baseball caps, and his latest shiny obsession glass speeds, plus running the Austin's [00:03:40] green belt and cheering on Texas sports. He is living proof that ADHD adults can build rich, adventurous lives.

[00:03:48] Jami Shapiro: Please welcome to the grandma [00:03:50] has ADHD podcast, James Ochoa. Woo. 

[00:03:56] James Ochoa: That's a mouthful there, Jamie. 

[00:03:59] Jami Shapiro: I love it. [00:04:00] I love it. So thank you for coming on and, agreeing and just so that you all can hear, James is not a grandma. 

[00:04:07] James Ochoa: No, he is not. 

[00:04:08] Jami Shapiro: Do you play one on [00:04:10] television? 

[00:04:10] James Ochoa: Nope. Don't play one on television. And maybe I'll be a Grandpa Paul one day, but that is not in the cards at this point.

[00:04:17] Jami Shapiro: Sure. So I, just so that, [00:04:20] you know, I gear this to really, women 50 and over. Great. 

[00:04:25] James Ochoa: But. 

[00:04:25] Jami Shapiro: A lot of times, so not, I'm not a grandma, although I'm 50, over 50, [00:04:30] but, we like to hear from men too, because you guys have a lot to contribute to the ADHD conversation. Mm-hmm. And, you know, a lot of my [00:04:40] audience are actually people who are just discovering that they may have ADHD.

[00:04:45] Jami Shapiro: as I share, I don't diagnose anybody. And, but I do know that it is. [00:04:50] It's, it's an awakening when you put these pieces together for your life. So I always like to ask my guests if you could share your own ADHD journey and then tell us a little about the [00:05:00] work you do. 

[00:05:01] James Ochoa: Well, it's a, it, it's a great topic and yes, I've been around this for decades and I've seen it from all angles.

[00:05:08] James Ochoa: I came to the table [00:05:10] with a, I didn't know I had ADHD until 1996. I had already been working five or six years in the field. I did have a closed head injury as a child [00:05:20] at four years old, which I had associated a lot of my learning differences with. 

[00:05:24] Jami Shapiro: Hmm. 

[00:05:24] James Ochoa: and so with that in tow in 1996, I was actually buying a clinical [00:05:30] diagnostic tool.

[00:05:31] James Ochoa: For diagnosing ADHD, which I had a very difficult time doing a computerized test and unannounced to me, in that difficulty, I [00:05:40] went to the developer, I'm like, you know, this is not easy for me. and we were looking it over and suddenly became a lot of the lights came on for myself regarding my adult ADD [00:05:50] issues.

[00:05:50] James Ochoa: And, what I had grown up with and understanding the genetics were on my mother's side of the family. they were very clear on that side of the family. And so [00:06:00] like, many of adults with ADHD, we come at the recognition in our adulthood because of some event. 

[00:06:08] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:08] James Ochoa: Some career issue.

[00:06:09] James Ochoa: [00:06:10] Something like me as a professional, suddenly I'm working with it. 'cause you know, I've been working with children since 1989. With ADHD and then started working with adults [00:06:20] in drug and alcohol treatment in 1992. So I'd been around, for several years, but understanding my own diagnosis really began to.[00:06:30] 

[00:06:30] James Ochoa: Enlightened me certainly as a professional on how to manage that. And, so, you know, I'm now 64 years old. I don't feel 64 [00:06:40] years old. I love who I am and I love what I do. And you know how I got to where I was. I say Jamie is very organic. as I said, I started [00:06:50] working with children in 1989, but. I kept running into challenges and problems that didn't go away.

[00:06:57] James Ochoa: Mm-hmm. So, early nineties right. We had [00:07:00] behavior modification and we had medication essentially, by the mid nineties, it was clear to me we had to educate people with ADHD about what was happening to them [00:07:10] neurologically, how their brains developed. 

[00:07:11] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:12] James Ochoa: Then we had to talk about mindfulness because their lines were so active and in restless.

[00:07:17] James Ochoa: Then we had to start to deal with, and really my calling [00:07:20] card in the field is the emotional and mental stress of ADHD. 

[00:07:23] Jami Shapiro: Hmm. 

[00:07:24] James Ochoa: So I coined a term in 2004 called the emotional distress syndrome, [00:07:30] or the EDS of ADHD, which is all the emotional and mental stress that spins off of the diagnosis and doesn't go away, but really erodes your, your [00:07:40] character, your self-esteem, your identity.

[00:07:43] James Ochoa: And we had to figure out what to do with that. And it was really, I talk about it, Jamie, as a clinical [00:07:50] failure, in my opinion as a therapist, that I couldn't help my clients pass this emotional and mental stress until I began to really look at it as a chronic issue. [00:08:00] 

[00:08:00] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:00] James Ochoa: And most people didn't wanna see ADHD as a lifelong chronic issue, even in 2005, 20 years ago.

[00:08:06] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:06] James Ochoa: so now I talk about it. Yes, it's. [00:08:10] A chronic issue that can be managed and you can learn to resource yourself. Around the emotional and mental stress of ADHD. and you can learn mindfulness [00:08:20] skills. You can be incredibly powerful and reach your potential. And I have worked with many adults, many women, who are postmenopausal.

[00:08:29] James Ochoa: That's another [00:08:30] big issue within ADHD causing lots of challenges and, you know, they begin to discover it and how they can begin to manage it effectively. So I [00:08:40] have come to this organically and continue to find answers. my first book focus Forward about the emotional and mental stress. Really opened up that spectrum and what to [00:08:50] do with it in 2016, and I am by planning on a publication date for a second book called When the Shiny Wears Off.

[00:08:59] James Ochoa: Because [00:09:00] with all the stress and you know all the details and it's still hard, what do you do now to keep up with it all? So yeah, I am a clinician steeped in this space. I, I love [00:09:10] the title of your podcast because we don't talk a lot about the aging issue within ADHD and what to do with it. And so I'm so glad you're getting this information out there.

[00:09:19] Jami Shapiro: I appreciate [00:09:20] that. And you know, what I'm finding is that, You know what? I just, I just had an ADHD moment on you, James. I just, 

[00:09:26] James Ochoa: well, well that would happen here. 

[00:09:28] Jami Shapiro: You know exactly what [00:09:30] mm-hmm. You know how that is. Mm-hmm. so I am going to collect my thoughts and we're gonna take a pause so I can get it.

[00:09:36] Jami Shapiro: 'cause I don't wanna like, keep going until I've got it. 'cause then it's just gonna distract [00:09:40] me. 

[00:09:40] James Ochoa: Absolutely. 

[00:09:41] Jami Shapiro: But I do wanna share another thing. As I was listening to you and I, I absolutely wanna talk about the emotional stress. Mm-hmm. Because a lot of our audience, [00:09:50] they've been beating themselves up their whole life.

[00:09:51] Jami Shapiro: They don't even know, they didn't even know they had ADHD, and now all of a sudden they're like, interweaving that. Yeah. Awareness of ADHD with [00:10:00] this, you know, with the life that they've thought and who they, and. So that's a big one that I definitely wanna come back to. Great. But I wanna give you a squirrel moment too, because I keep it [00:10:10] very real.

[00:10:10] Jami Shapiro: So James, first of all, you're James. I'm Jamie. We're both sitting in corners of a room, which we are with a cream chair. So. Like I had [00:10:20] to, that's a very ADHD thing to do where you, you've got all of these other senses and things going at you at one time, so 

[00:10:25] James Ochoa: yes, they are. Yes they are. With the chair behind you and the pictures behind you [00:10:30] and the very personalized space.

[00:10:31] James Ochoa: Mine's a very personalized space. Super important to hear the beads you were talking about those earlier. I've gotten lost in them. So yeah, we're [00:10:40] very authentic in our model in treating ADHD. 

[00:10:43] Jami Shapiro: I love it. I love it. Okay, so we're gonna pause, which I would normally do anyway in the podcast. I just pick a different [00:10:50] time.

[00:10:50] Jami Shapiro: And so this is as good a time as any great. but I do want to also come back with a question that I always ask my guests. and so when we come [00:11:00] back, I'm going to ask you if you could press the ADHD button and have it go away, like the pen Holderness talked about that in last year's ADHD conference.

[00:11:09] Jami Shapiro: I wanna know [00:11:10] if you get rid of your A DH adhd, but I don't want you to answer that question yet. And if you are. Thing to this podcast and you are enjoying it. I hope that you will share it with your friends, that you [00:11:20] will like it and you'll subscribe to it. And I'm really, really excited. James. This is the first podcast interview that I've done since I have, started the Sparkler [00:11:30] Society.

[00:11:30] Jami Shapiro: So this is something that's gonna be starting in January. So we're taking names for the waiting list now, and the Sparkler Society is all about. [00:11:40] Women who have lived this whole life not knowing why they felt too much, had too much, you know, were called too much. and we're tackling the challenges [00:11:50] of ADHD in a community setting with accountability.

[00:11:53] Jami Shapiro: We're tackling the ADHD tax. Mm-hmm. because like to your point, really not addressing. [00:12:00] The, oh, I remember what I was gonna say. I knew I would, we're still gonna take the break. I'm gonna write it down. This, I don't. But anyway, we're, we're addressing the ADHD in later life. Mm-hmm. When you [00:12:10] don't have the scaffolding of work.

[00:12:11] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. And you, you know, and you need, you need something. You don't have that structure. So we're gonna come right back. I'm gonna take a pause, take a sip of my tea. 

[00:12:19] James Ochoa: Great. [00:12:20] 

[00:12:20] Jami Shapiro: And we'll be right back. 

 [00:16:51] Jami Shapiro: So we are back with James Ochoa, and, if you heard me choke, you totally heard me lose a thought. It happens all the [00:17:00] time.

[00:17:00] Jami Shapiro: And of course I apologized to James and he said, oh, that's what editing is for. And I said, oh, we don't edit on this podcast. My, Thoughts are, I don't [00:17:10] do life on hard mode. Mm-hmm. I need to keep things as easy as possible, and that would be one more thing that would keep me from getting this content out.

[00:17:18] Jami Shapiro: And so true, [00:17:20] very much perfect is the enemy of done. and to your point, we are very, very authentic people. Right. Which is also, I have to tell you, James, when I ask [00:17:30] someone if they have ADHD, I first tell them, this is perhaps the biggest compliment I can give you. So, 

[00:17:36] James Ochoa: yes. 

[00:17:37] Jami Shapiro: So having said that, I have a couple questions and we [00:17:40] are gonna go back to the original point.

[00:17:42] Jami Shapiro: so would you push the button, the a DC button? Would you not have it? 

[00:17:47] James Ochoa: You know it. I wish it [00:17:50] was a simple yes or no question, right? It's impossible. And for certainly a neurodivergent, ADHD mind is not gonna answer it yes or no way. I have seen [00:18:00] those who don't have it, and they live happy content lives as well.

[00:18:05] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:05] James Ochoa: So if I didn't have it, would I live a happy content life? Yes, I think I would. [00:18:10] Okay. Because I have it. I live an adventurous, fun living life in which, uh, yes, there's challenges and [00:18:20] stress, but, the, the level at which I gather, Stories and, adventure and fun, to me is just multifaceted, [00:18:30] multilevel.

[00:18:31] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:31] James Ochoa: So, no, I wouldn't change any of my life. Of course. Absolutely not. that would be silly. I don't know if you saw the work way back, in the [00:18:40] nineties from, and I believe it came out of the book, you know, I'm not lazy, crazy or stupid by, Kate and Peggy, und or Peggy Mundo and Kate Kelly.

[00:18:49] James Ochoa: But they [00:18:50] talked about the ADHD gene being removed from society and what would happen, right? And 20, 20 years later, they're having a conference going. we think it's a good idea to put it [00:19:00] back in, but we don't have anyone with the gene to help us. Essentially. 

[00:19:03] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:04] James Ochoa: So, I mean, that's been around, I mean, that thought process is so real, isn't it?

[00:19:09] James Ochoa: If I could [00:19:10] push that button 

[00:19:10] Jami Shapiro: mm-hmm. 

[00:19:11] James Ochoa: Do I think because you're not gonna take away the magic, you're not gonna take away, you're still gonna be frustrated with human conditions for different reasons. So [00:19:20] I'd much rather have my conditions than anything else. Absolutely. No, I would not push the ADHD button.

[00:19:25] Jami Shapiro: Love it. Love it. And you're right, that, that acceptance, just, just like, and that's one of the. Parts of [00:19:30] this podcast is, it's not rehearsed. It's kept very real because when I am an authentic person in a, you know, in a space of other people, then that gives other people permission to say, [00:19:40] oh, she is doing it and I'm not judging her.

[00:19:42] Jami Shapiro: Right. so I love how you Exactly. I think that's been the best answer to the question, and I have to tell you that there's only been one [00:19:50] person so far. Who also works as an ADHD coach who said he would push the button. 

[00:19:55] James Ochoa: Oh, interesting. 

[00:19:56] Jami Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. It is interesting. But no one says yes or no. I mean, that's just [00:20:00] right.

[00:20:00] Jami Shapiro: There's, okay, so here were a couple questions that I had for you. So I have never had a partner with ADHD and you are married to someone. Mm-hmm. So I would love if you [00:20:10] could share a little bit about a relationship with two ADHD people. Do you sort of, one of you take time turns being the filter? Or how does, how does that work?

[00:20:19] James Ochoa: Well, so [00:20:20] my wife does not have ADHD. 

[00:20:21] Jami Shapiro: Oh, I thought she did. 

[00:20:22] 

[00:20:22] James Ochoa: no, no, no. She's got some learning differences on our language spectrum. 

[00:20:26] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:26] James Ochoa: Uh, but she does not. But I've had, I've had many couples, [00:20:30] Jamie, who both have ADHD. Sure. Uh, and the reality is you get a lot of patterned disruptions that you have to learn to manage.

[00:20:38] James Ochoa: with my couples, I'm [00:20:40] always asking them about what is your appreciation and gratitude meter like within your relationship, which is basically how much are you appreciating and being grateful for your partner in the [00:20:50] smallest of ways. 

[00:20:51] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:51] James Ochoa: I think that's an elixir for couples to keep the relationship connected because the stress of today's [00:21:00] world will push us apart at any given moment.

[00:21:02] James Ochoa: Okay? We can blame fight. 

[00:21:04] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:04] James Ochoa: Victimize each other, victimize ourselves, shut down. We can do these 10,000 things that [00:21:10] never are gonna be helpful to the health of a relationship. so for me, appreciation, gratitude meters are one of the key elements that my wife and I live [00:21:20] within. outside of business meetings, as I would call them, couples business meetings where we consistently check in with each other.

[00:21:27] James Ochoa: and my wife is a great list producer, so that's very [00:21:30] helpful. And I'm a great driver and a doer, right? So I'm like, just get out of my way and I can clean the kitchen in 10 or 15 minutes versus someone else's. 30 or 45 of [00:21:40] meandering. It's just like I can be very task oriented. So yeah, learning, living with.

[00:21:47] James Ochoa: Learning differences within our marriage has been [00:21:50] certainly challenging, but you know, we have two beautiful sons at 34 and 30 years old. our oldest has ADHD, hyperactive, impulsive type, and [00:22:00] very, very successful. I write about him and my book, focus Forward, very successful computer engineer living in Brooklyn, and our youngest son had had dyslexia as a child, and it was [00:22:10] remediated for a great degree.

[00:22:12] Jami Shapiro: Wow. 

[00:22:12] James Ochoa: And he's, he's in the UX research field, but it was remediated. 'cause we, we intervened early on it with his learning tools and abilities. So he has [00:22:20] all these compensation spaces and incredibly gifted writer now in those spaces. So, you know, yes. Authenticity, family, living as a community, [00:22:30] respect for each other.

[00:22:31] James Ochoa: I could talk for days about how that happens in a relationship. And yes, I've been married 36 years, going on 37 years. it's a [00:22:40] constitution to me, which means that I, outside of overt abuse or harm toward me, or me towards someone else, in this case, my relationship, I'm not going anywhere. Mm-hmm. [00:22:50] 

[00:22:50] James Ochoa: It's not about the other person.

[00:22:52] James Ochoa: It's about me taking care of myself and them taking care of their self. 

[00:22:56] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:56] James Ochoa: And so if you have that constitution. you have a [00:23:00] partnership long term. 

[00:23:02] Jami Shapiro: Well, I have to share something that, you know, it's wonderful to have this podcast because I continue, even though I've gone through ADHD coaching, I learned [00:23:10] constantly and I learned about recognition, euphoria.

[00:23:13] James Ochoa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:13] Jami Shapiro: Um, and I am that person who has always sought validation. Mm-hmm. And it's, I know that it's really annoying [00:23:20] to my partner mm-hmm. And to my children. but when I learned, I mean like a week or two ago about recognition euphoria. That, you know, plays into [00:23:30] why it would be so important to hear those kind words from your partner that validate.

[00:23:33] James Ochoa: Absolutely. 

[00:23:34] Jami Shapiro: Yeah. 

[00:23:35] James Ochoa: Absolutely. And by the way, let's just twist that into you as an individual self, right? [00:23:40] We talk about the emotional mental stress being so disruptive on the ADHD spectrum. Mm-hmm. Can you create a relationship with yourself? That creates your own recognition [00:23:50] euphoria. Okay. Can you look at a mirror?

[00:23:53] James Ochoa: Can you have a discussion with yourself in a real way? that's not breaking some schizophrenic or reality testing [00:24:00] boundary. It's actually one of the things I've been playing with this year is a lot of mirror work, a relationship with myself. Hmm. So I wonder could we get recognition, euphoria for ourselves?

[00:24:09] James Ochoa: I think we [00:24:10] can. I think we can. I think we can get past the distress of it all. 

[00:24:13] Jami Shapiro: So I'm gonna share a quick thing and I, I, I absolutely think the first thing people should do, and I talk about this in my [00:24:20] own book, that you've gotta get kind with that voice in your, in your head. Yes, absolutely. That that's gotta be someone that you have as a friend.

[00:24:27] Jami Shapiro: But I have to tell you that. Every time [00:24:30] I'm on my yoga mat or I go to the gym, I'm like, I'm proud of you, Jamie. I mean, I, I, I really say it every time. Good. 

[00:24:37] James Ochoa: Absolutely. So 

[00:24:37] Jami Shapiro: I love it. So that leads me to [00:24:40] this, when you, you and I can't remember how you encapsulated your term, but one of the biggest things that I'm finding in the space that I'm working in [00:24:50] is this.

[00:24:50] Jami Shapiro: Is the grief and the relief of discovering the ADHD. 

[00:24:54] James Ochoa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:55] Jami Shapiro: And, and I like to use my mom. I mean, she is, she is my avatar. She is the OG, the [00:25:00] original grandma behind this whole thing because I knew I had ADHD for eight years and didn't think much of it when my child was, by the way, my oldest child has ADHD.

[00:25:09] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. And [00:25:10] lives in Brooklyn, New York, and is Israel. Oh, there 

[00:25:12] James Ochoa: you go. 

[00:25:13] Jami Shapiro: And as a drag king talk about using their creativity. Wow. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my child's brilliant, [00:25:20] but 

[00:25:20] James Ochoa: it's great. 

[00:25:21] Jami Shapiro: That's another squirrel. Mm-hmm. But that. My mom, who was really bright but really did not finish [00:25:30] college. Jumped from job to job.

[00:25:31] Jami Shapiro: Lots, lots of incompletes in her life. And, and actually I've talked about it really openly about our relationship and how damaged it was [00:25:40] because we were both so disappointed with each other. Mm-hmm. We both had that rejection sensitivity. Mm-hmm. And and then when I realized that my mom had had ADHD all of these years [00:25:50] and that I was just one of those people, one more person beating down on her. 

[00:25:54] James Ochoa: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:54] Jami Shapiro: It, it just completely transformed our relationship. Mm-hmm. But, so when I speak about [00:26:00] that, then I'm also, there are a lot of people listening that are, that are coming to this conversation. Mm-hmm. There is like, how do you manage that? You know, how do [00:26:10] you, what, what is your advice 

[00:26:12] James Ochoa: in managing, kind of the understanding of ADHD or not having known about it and the, of recognition?

[00:26:18] James Ochoa: All of it. Yeah, 

[00:26:18] Jami Shapiro: all of it. It's all of, [00:26:20] 'cause there's a lot, I mean, there is, there is grief and there is relief, right? 

[00:26:23] James Ochoa: Well, there is, and I talk about this emotion, this emotional wave of grief that happens with recognition, [00:26:30] particularly for adults who were diagnosed in their adult life, that they, they.

[00:26:35] James Ochoa: You, it's very natural for us to immediately go to a, you know, a grief [00:26:40] response of what if something had happened, being angry about it, right? Being sad and depressed about it. And I say, that's okay. Pass through those spaces, [00:26:50] okay? but honor them because they were your life also. So there's a perspective I carry called mining the gyms of your life [00:27:00] history.

[00:27:00] James Ochoa: and the idea of mining the gyms of your life history would say that you look back at that life history, okay? And you begin to ask yourself, Jamie, [00:27:10] what's the experience I took? What's the knowledge? What's the wisdom? What's the hope? Okay. What are the things I took from those [00:27:20] times? Because if we can mine those gems of our life history, then what we do is we start to weave our fabric right of our life history in a more [00:27:30] congruent way.

[00:27:31] James Ochoa: It becomes less of a trauma distress and more of an adventure in a story. Mine is full of it. Okay, I am [00:27:40] full of resilience and just not giving up. And so many of us with ADHD have that, right? You can knock me down. Mm-hmm. But you can't keep me [00:27:50] down. 

[00:27:50] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:50] James Ochoa: All right. And I will always get up. And so to me, taking that grief response and learning to thread it and what are the, and start seeing them as [00:28:00] gems of your life history.

[00:28:01] James Ochoa: What did I take away? Who am I now as a result of it? I can powerfully tell you my story, you know, of tantruming when I'm five years old. I [00:28:10] pick up a dining room table on my back and I was a seventh out of eight kids, and so there's a lot of kids around the table. Mm-hmm. Because I was so mad. Nobody's paying attention to me.

[00:28:19] James Ochoa: The [00:28:20] passion of that little five-year-old tantruming is the same passion I have 36 years later of treating ADHD and not walking away from it. Okay. The sensory [00:28:30] deprivation tank I had at eight years old in floating in a, a tub of water when I was taking a bath so I could get away from the chaos of my family [00:28:40] is just a brilliant way of going back and grabbing life history that I could certainly be ashamed and embarrassed about because oh my God, how weird was that?

[00:28:49] James Ochoa: Or here's this [00:28:50] little tantruming kid. No, they're powerful stories. So you take grief and you roll it into your story in a way that's powerful. What do you do for [00:29:00] many adults who say, I've lost my potential, I've lost, you know, I'm 45 years old, I'm 50, I'm 60, I'll never get it back. I'm like, there's always [00:29:10] potential within you lying ahead of you.

[00:29:13] James Ochoa: What are you gonna do next? Some of your most incredible years could be lying ahead of you, and it could be that all this [00:29:20] resilience and everything that happened, you're gonna move it forward in a way you could never have understood before. 

[00:29:26] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:27] James Ochoa: Keep working to make sense of your life [00:29:30] history, because psychologically, if anything else, it keeps you a whole lot calmer and a lot more engaged in the game, and it keeps you off the victim approach.

[00:29:39] James Ochoa: Right. It's not [00:29:40] like Absolutely. You know? So does that help? I mean, that's how I weave that process. 

[00:29:45] Jami Shapiro: That was beautiful. And, first of all, one of the things that they say is wonderful about [00:29:50] ADHD is our natural tendency towards curiosity. Mm-hmm. Which is also one of the things that helps us age better.

[00:29:57] Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. And so I, I wanna point that out [00:30:00] as it, but you know, are you familiar with the term Jro transcendence? 

[00:30:03] James Ochoa: No. 

[00:30:04] Jami Shapiro: Okay. You're gonna, you're gonna love this. So, I studied to become, or I am a [00:30:10] certified senior advisor, and while taking this class mm-hmm. I learned about Eric Erickson developing a ninth state.

[00:30:17] Jami Shapiro: So he was a famous sociologist, had the Yes, [00:30:20] absolutely. Well, when he got into his eighties, he and his cohort, his friends, his wife, realized that they had sort of missed a part, and that is identified [00:30:30] as the ninth stage or jro transcendence. Which is exactly what you're talking about, mining your life.

[00:30:34] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. Which is when you are making peace. Yes. You're making peace with your life, with your relationships. [00:30:40] And I think that under, so I have had people say to me, you know, and especially when I started this podcast, why does it matter? Why does it matter? You know that you're [00:30:50] 50, 60, 70 years old discovering you have ADHD.

[00:30:53] Jami Shapiro: I'm like. Are you, you know, and I know it's transformed my life. I mean, so we, we [00:31:00] share that passion. But can you imagine if you are now reflecting on your life and you've been beating yourself up your entire life and now all of a sudden you're like, oh, wait a minute, I was [00:31:10] going into the bathtub to adapt to an environment.

[00:31:13] James Ochoa: Yes. 

[00:31:13] Jami Shapiro: Yes. Like how brilliant was I? 

[00:31:15] James Ochoa: Yes. Right, right. And so this, because when you discover that [00:31:20] brilliance from back then, guess what? That brilliance is still with you. It's still carrying you forward. Mm-hmm. And so it's been threaded, and so it suddenly becomes this incredibly strong muscle [00:31:30] memory 

[00:31:30] Jami Shapiro: mm-hmm.

[00:31:31] James Ochoa: Of kind of who you have, who you are, and who you're becoming. Mm-hmm. And I love that idea, you know, from Erickson, which I love his work from a psychological study [00:31:40] point of view, you know, that in the golden years or in the, I, I had a new, someone who's, she's close to 90 now. Way back when she was in, way back when [00:31:50] she was in her sixties, in the nineties, she would say she was consciously aging.

[00:31:54] James Ochoa: She's aware of who she is and what her age is and how she's moving, and she was [00:32:00] consciously aging Well. 

[00:32:01] Jami Shapiro: I love that one. 

[00:32:02] James Ochoa: I just, yeah, and you know. So, here's a funny story, Jamie. It's my 60th birthday. I'm 64 now, so this is four years ago. Mm-hmm. [00:32:10] Someone asked me, how old do you wanna live to be?

[00:32:12] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:12] James Ochoa: And I'm, if you know anything about me, I'm a numbers guy and I like playing with numbers. And so 11 is 11, 11 is a great [00:32:20] number. 

[00:32:20] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:20] James Ochoa: So I said, oh, I wanna live to 111. Because it's just fun. And you know, at my hundred 11th birthday, I wanna wave goodbye to everyone. And by that time I'll probably be able to choose to [00:32:30] transition outta here or not if I want to, but I wanna attend my own going away party.

[00:32:34] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:34] James Ochoa: You know, and it's like, why not dream? So I said that as kind of a [00:32:40] hyperactive impulse in a fun conversation with someone at my 60th birthday. Well, what does it do for me? It creates this little toehold in my belief system of [00:32:50] myself. Regarding self-care, regarding meditation, regarding strength training and working out, things have been so much more dynamic the last four [00:33:00] years.

[00:33:00] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:01] James Ochoa: I think because I have this little bitty toehold. Mm-hmm. Well, that's what we do with ADHD, right? We find these little passions and to toeholds in a way that make such [00:33:10] a grand way of how we can live our life. So many of us with ADHD though, right? We just shudder from that. We just shrink. And as [00:33:20] you were saying, you know, being kind to yourself is one of the most critical pieces of being compassionate.

[00:33:26] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:27] James Ochoa: and it's just a, it's a wonderful world to live in. [00:33:30] 

[00:33:31] Jami Shapiro: I love it. And by the way, I have also put my age out there. Um, mine is 101. 

[00:33:37] James Ochoa: Nice. 

[00:33:38] Jami Shapiro: I wanna have a great [00:33:40] hundredth birthday party and I wanna get through that year. My, my partner is nine years younger than I am. Yeah. And we were talking, we were talking about it yesterday actually.

[00:33:48] Jami Shapiro: We were talking about how [00:33:50] he, he doesn't really wanna make it to his nineties. I'm like, oh, come on, you gotta make it to your nineties. 'cause I don't wanna be a widow that long. 

[00:33:57] James Ochoa: Well, it's one of those pieces, right, that you, it [00:34:00] gives you something to look forward to. I love it in a way that's meaningful for you, and that personal meaning is what really tows us forward on the ADHD spectrum to staying [00:34:10] connected with who we are.

[00:34:11] James Ochoa: Absolutely. 

[00:34:12] Jami Shapiro: Well, I have to tell you, I, I mean, I enjoy pretty much every interview, but I really am enjoying this one. It's amazing. so I've got a [00:34:20] question for you, and Sure. This is not one that you were prepared to answer, but you mentioned that you came from ADHD through your mother's side. Yes. Do you, now, looking back at your childhood, [00:34:30] 'cause I'm sure your mother was not diagnosed with ADHD, if I'm right.

[00:34:33] Jami Shapiro: No. So, tell me about that. 

[00:34:35] James Ochoa: Yeah. You know, I, it's interesting. I think my mother, Whether my [00:34:40] mother had ADHD is a question. She has certainly had a very high IQ and I know that for certain, she was a woman in 1952. She owned two [00:34:50] cars, was the head secretary and an insurance agency, and because of cultural social norms when she got married.

[00:34:56] James Ochoa: She quit her job. 

[00:34:58] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:58] James Ochoa: Okay. And was at [00:35:00] home to have children. Well, she had seven kids in eight years after that, which is just like an insane life story of mine. and so within that thread of my [00:35:10] family, I'm absolutely certain that at least one, if not two of my aunts, one of my aunt, my beautiful Aunt Julie, who no longer, is with us.

[00:35:19] James Ochoa: She [00:35:20] had a little sign on the back of her stove that said the hurry, or I go the behind her, I get, and it was just her. She was, and she was just a little [00:35:30] spark plug. She was a nurse and she was an incredible nurse and but she was constantly, constantly hyperactive and running around. And so I know it was in my [00:35:40] family.

[00:35:40] James Ochoa: I have a funny story. I tell. on my, father on, so my mother's side of the family, her last name was, Kane. And, and my grandfather clearly [00:35:50] had pieces of it, but I had someone that I knew at another state with the same last name who was an adult with ADHD. and so I could follow that lineage from like [00:36:00] five.

[00:36:00] James Ochoa: Family systems back, through Louisiana and Mississippi, and actually my mother's maiden name is on the, founding fathers of [00:36:10] in Jamestown, so I could go to Jamestown and be one of the founding fathers. So genetics absolutely have seen it. I love to talk the genetic picture. [00:36:20] 'cause to me it's hair color, height, and weight within the ADHD spectrum.

[00:36:24] James Ochoa: and I, as many people may have characteristics of it, it [00:36:30] may never birth itself as a diagnosis, as I say, depending on the support you have around you. But unfortunately, like with Russell Barkley and how much of the research he [00:36:40] shows on the detriment of this, so many of these people with ADHD are living sub living lives there in prison.

[00:36:46] James Ochoa: They're homeless. It's a, it's, it's a very [00:36:50] difficult issue, but we still only think what. 20% maybe at best actually know they have the neurological 

[00:36:56] Jami Shapiro: Yes. 

[00:36:56] James Ochoa: Difference. Okay. Can you 

[00:36:58] Jami Shapiro: imagine 80% of [00:37:00] people wa Yes. 

[00:37:01] James Ochoa: Crazy. They're walking around and so unfortunately, how many of them are disheveled and how many of them are high?

[00:37:06] James Ochoa: Fine, you know, powerful people. [00:37:10] like I say, if you only have one or two or three of the characteristics on the spectrum of diagnosis within ADHD, those one, two, or three characteristics could really cause you [00:37:20] challenge in your life. 

[00:37:20] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:21] James Ochoa: and so mild, moderate, severe degrees of diagnosis, it doesn't matter.

[00:37:25] James Ochoa: You still have to learn how to manage it. 

[00:37:27] Jami Shapiro: I agree and I cannot [00:37:30] stand when I have somebody say, oh, they are so successful, or They're so smart they can't have ADHD. And I'm like, no, that probably did their ADHD. But you [00:37:40] know it, it's very 

[00:37:41] James Ochoa: tough. Yeah, they probably masked it for many years in ways you would never know, but go behind the scenes and.

[00:37:46] James Ochoa: You know, it's hanging around 

[00:37:49] Jami Shapiro: and I'm gonna [00:37:50] suggest that anyone who has seven or eight kids might have ADHD. I mean, that's someone who likes, likes to keep things going. And I have to share with you one more thing, that expression, that hurry or I [00:38:00] go the behind her, I get. That is like my life. My, we hosted a Hanukkah party last night.

[00:38:08] James Ochoa: There we go. 

[00:38:09] Jami Shapiro: And [00:38:10] my partner is, he is a scientist. Mm-hmm. So he's about as slow moving and methodical, which, you know, drives me. Crazy. [00:38:20] And, and he will say, you know, when you don't finish the steps, like, you and I realize now, like for me it's done. I, you know, he's, we've already gone this far, why not finish it?[00:38:30] 

[00:38:30] Jami Shapiro: Right? But, but he's, I'm constantly rushing and now I know, he's like, are you gonna, you know, rush through this to take this one minute to, to take yourself 20 more [00:38:40] minutes to clean up the mess because you couldn't slow it down. So I wrote that one down. I'm gonna get a sign that says that. 

[00:38:47] James Ochoa: Yeah, that would be a great honor to [00:38:50] my Aunt Julie from years ago.

[00:38:52] James Ochoa: And you know, that pause method, it's one of the things, right, with the underactive nature of our prefrontal cortex. It's one of the [00:39:00] pieces, and Barkley talked about this way back in the nineties. We don't evaluate that space of that pause as naturally. And so how do you put that pause [00:39:10] into your life?

[00:39:11] James Ochoa: As easy as drinking water or taking a breath or going to sleep, I say you have to move it to a Maslow hierarchy of [00:39:20] need of food, water, and sleep. And pausing is one of those. Curiosity and observation you were saying, earlier. Curiosity is a is a huge, it pulls the [00:39:30] brain outta gear and slows us down Well.

[00:39:32] James Ochoa: That's mindful meditation, that's micro meditations. Mm-hmm. You know, that is living within that world and, and we know that that [00:39:40] is an enormously healthy thing to do for adults with ADHD is to be contemplative. Slow down. 

[00:39:46] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:47] James Ochoa: Appreciate the moment. And I'm doing that [00:39:50] constantly and I think it's, it's something that, yeah.

[00:39:52] James Ochoa: So I super appreciate what you're getting out there for folks to talk about and to, understand things. 

[00:39:58] Jami Shapiro: I appreciate that. I have to share with you [00:40:00] too, that I, I get up really early 'cause I've got a million things racing through my mind. Thankfully, I'm pretty good at sleeping through the night. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:06] Jami Shapiro: I would call that pretty fortunate, but I have started to [00:40:10] go down into the family room, not turn anything on, not get onto the phone, just be, which is a really [00:40:20] uncomfortable thing. 

[00:40:21] James Ochoa: Yes. 

[00:40:21] Jami Shapiro: For someone who's, I've gotta be productive all the time. But it is, I'm awareness. I mean, I think that's another great reason to [00:40:30] understand ADHD.

[00:40:30] Jami Shapiro: It's the awareness of, 

[00:40:32] James Ochoa: yeah. 

[00:40:32] Jami Shapiro: Or the, I know I'm going to forget this, so let me put something in place. Or even, especially like the visual, I deal with a [00:40:40] lot as a senior move manager and home organizer, I see a lot of the piles of clutter. 

[00:40:45] James Ochoa: Oh sure, sure. Right? 

[00:40:46] Jami Shapiro: And, and now it's like, this is because I'm afraid if I don't keep it out, I [00:40:50] won't remember it.

[00:40:50] Jami Shapiro: And so it's like, what are the tools? For that, so 

[00:40:53] James Ochoa: Right. 

[00:40:53] Jami Shapiro: As, as you can imagine, I could go on and on talking about myself, but it is not about me. This is about having you [00:41:00] on. So, first of all, I want you to share with our audience how they can find you, and then any last piece of advice that you'd like to share.

[00:41:07] James Ochoa: Well, everyone can find me at [00:41:10] jamesochoa.com. So I'm a fortunate one who owns my name and so all my website there has a lot of information about how to interact with me. One of the things [00:41:20] I do do that I appreciate is I still offer a 20 minute free. Zoom interview with me 

[00:41:25] Jami Shapiro: mm-hmm. 

[00:41:26] James Ochoa: To kind of get an understanding on where to go.

[00:41:28] James Ochoa: I started doing this about two or [00:41:30] three years ago, even as an expert and as a clinician of doing this many decades of work. Certainly have plenty of folks enjoying working with, but I'm happy to [00:41:40] do Zoom interviews to help people understand where to go or how I might be able to help them. So, but yes, I have something called ADHD Town Hall, which is [00:41:50] a six week webinar once a year.

[00:41:52] James Ochoa: I have a living well with ADHD conference every fall. So I do two of those things every year to give people [00:42:00] information about my theoretical orientation and how to live with this powerfully. and so, you know, getting connected to me through my james ochoa.com website. And [00:42:10] I'm now working certainly also with, I've started something very interesting, Jamie, year long agreements with individuals.

[00:42:18] James Ochoa: 'cause I really wanna make a difference for [00:42:20] folks who can really, stick with it and really stay with it from an intensivity point of view of getting things done and really changing things. I'm calling 'em my transformation [00:42:30] transcendence kind of work. But those kind of things you really lean into what makes a difference for folks.

[00:42:36] James Ochoa: In their lives. And, I want someone to be a [00:42:40] better, expert on themselves. That's really what we're after because I'm not here to gain clients for retirement, as I would say. I want you to learn better about [00:42:50] yourself and get moving with your life. So I want people to move through my directive, action oriented kind of work.

[00:42:57] James Ochoa: Mm-hmm. I thread mentoring, coaching, and [00:43:00] counseling together as a three, threaded rope. To really help people understand who they are, but they can find all my material in james ochoa.com. I've got a lot of things there [00:43:10] on my website as resource and information. 

[00:43:13] Jami Shapiro: That is great. By the way, I am one of those people who does not own my domain name for my name. I tried to get jamie [00:43:20] shapiro.com and it was not available. So I am Jamie shapiro.me, but I think. I think that's perfect. I do wanna spell I 

[00:43:27] James Ochoa: doa I do too. 

[00:43:28] Jami Shapiro: For, anybody who is [00:43:30] listening and is not, watching this on YouTube, it's, so, Ochoa is O-C-H-O-A, correct? 

[00:43:35] Jami Shapiro: Correct. James Ochoa. James 

[00:43:37] James Ochoa: Ochoa. 

[00:43:38] Jami Shapiro: Any parting words?

[00:43:39] Jami Shapiro: for our [00:43:40] listeners? 

[00:43:41] James Ochoa: I think the key to all of people with ADHD is to look for things that are time stopping in your life, things that hold a passionate [00:43:50] connection for you. To continue to follow those in a way that are meaningful. So if you're doing a body of work or you're in a job or a career, that may not [00:44:00] be exactly your passion, that's fine.

[00:44:02] James Ochoa: Create something that is your passion that stops time that you can always touch, because that's, I think, feeds us from the [00:44:10] ADHD spectrum. And the other one, as I was saying earlier, is really mining the gyms of your life history. Pausing, slowing down to appreciate what is all [00:44:20] around you. and as you were saying earlier, you know, speak kindly to yourself.

[00:44:25] James Ochoa: and when you have a negative or a difficult thought about who you are, [00:44:30] just counteract it with at least one that is on the other side of the fence. So that counteraction can be very, very helpful. 

[00:44:38] Jami Shapiro: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:39] James Ochoa: But I just [00:44:40] want people with ADHD to understand, you know, hang in there and stay in there with who you are.

[00:44:45] James Ochoa: You can and will, and continue to make a difference. 

[00:44:49] Jami Shapiro: I love [00:44:50] it. I love it. Well, I always end my podcast. just saying that, you know, it is never too late to make the rest of your life. The best of your life. Nice. And [00:45:00] I love this interview. Thank you so much, James. 

[00:45:02] James Ochoa: Thank you so much, Jamie. 

[00:45:03] Jami Shapiro: Thank you for listening and as I sh shared in before the pause, please like this.

[00:45:09] Jami Shapiro: I need the [00:45:10] validation and, but I also need people to hear this message because that was what I wanted to say. You know, our society is, and I'm so glad you said conscious aging because our [00:45:20] society is so anti-aging. I mean, we sell products to anti. I'm a 21 year cancer survivor. I don't want anti-age.

[00:45:27] Jami Shapiro: Right. 

[00:45:28] James Ochoa: No, no. 

[00:45:29] Jami Shapiro: I wanna [00:45:30] age. Right. So, and you know, just like ADHD is a lot of us are given, in society kind of brushed aside or, you know, whatever. Mm-hmm. And that is exactly what happens in aging. It's, it's, I 

[00:45:39] James Ochoa: know. It's [00:45:40] so sad. It's really sad. 

[00:45:42] Jami Shapiro: Yeah. So I, I'm on a mission to, to change that. 

[00:45:44] James Ochoa: Good, good. I'm glad you are.

[00:45:46] James Ochoa: I'm glad. This podcast and great name for the podcast. It's an [00:45:50] immediate catcher. 

[00:45:51] Jami Shapiro: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for being here. 

[00:45:53] James Ochoa: Absolutely.