Episode 85 - Why We Need to Reframe Shame with ADHD

In this episode of Grandma Has ADHD, Jami Shapiro sits down with psychologist and adult ADHD expert Dr. Shawn Horn for an honest and empowering conversation about one of the heaviest emotions many people with ADHD carry: shame.

Dr. Horn shares how shame can quietly shape relationships, confidence, communication, and emotional regulation — and why healing begins when we stop judging ourselves and start understanding what’s really going on.

Together, Jami and Dr. Horn explore how reframing shame can open the door to stronger relationships, more self-compassion, and practical strategies that actually work for the ADHD brain.

What You’ll Learn

• Why shame is so common in adults with ADHD
• How late diagnosis can reshape your self-image
• The difference between guilt and shame
• How rejection sensitivity (RSD) impacts relationships
• Why nervous system regulation matters in communication
• How ADHD can affect connection, conflict, and emotional reaction
• Practical ways to build self-compassion and resilience
• Why understanding your brain changes everything

Why This Matters

Many adults with ADHD spend years believing they are the problem.

This episode is a reminder that ADHD challenges are not character flaws. When shame is replaced with understanding, people can begin to build healthier relationships with themselves and others.

The ADHD Button Question

Jami asks every guest: If there were a button that could remove your ADHD forever, would you press it?

This conversation highlights a common theme on the podcast: while ADHD can bring real struggles, many people also discover strengths, creativity, empathy, and resilience through understanding how their brain works.

About the Guest

Dr. Shawn Horn, PsyD is a licensed clinical psychologist, TEDx speaker, podcast host, and adult ADHD expert known online as the “Shame-Busting Psychologist.” She helps adults with ADHD turn shame into resilience and thrive socially and emotionally. She is the author of Thrive Socially with Adult ADHD: Shame-Busting Strategies to Build Better Relationships Using Polyvagal Theory & Neuroscience.

About the Host

Jami Shapiro is an ADHD coach, speaker, and founder of Silver Linings Transitions. Through her podcast Grandma Has ADHD, she brings awareness to ADHD in older adults, especially women, helping listeners better understand their brains and navigate life with more clarity and compassion.

Resources

• Thrive Socially with Adult ADHD by Dr. Shawn Horn
• Polyvagal Theory resources
• ADHD relationship and communication strategies

Links & Support

• Website: https://www.jamishapiro.me
• Silver Linings Transitions: Support for downsizing, organizing, and life transitions
• Book: This Explains So Much by Jami Shapiro

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Grandma Has ADHD! We hope Jami's journey and insights into ADHD shed light on the unique challenges faced by older adults. Stay tuned for more episodes where we’ll explore helpful resources, share personal stories, and provide guidance for those navigating ADHD. Don’t forget to subscribe and share this podcast with friends who might benefit. Remember, Make the rest of your life the best of your life.

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Transcript

 Hi, I'm Jamie Shapiro and welcome to Grandma has ADHD. I'm a certified senior move manager and owner of Silver Linings Transitions, where I help people navigate life's big transitions. But here's the thing, I spent years helping families move through change while completely missing the pattern that was running through my own life.

I'm the daughter of two ADHD parents, the mother of three ADHD children, and yep, I have a DHD too. For years I didn't have the language or understanding for what that meant, but becoming an ADHD coach and specialist, that's been absolutely game changing, not just for how I work with my clients. But for how I relate to my family and honestly for how I understand myself.

I even wrote a book about it called This Explains So Much. This podcast is for all of us who are discovering ADHD later in life. Each week I bring new conversations with industry experts and people sharing their own ADHD journeys. Real stories, real strategies, and often a little too much information.

If you're loving what you're hearing, please share this podcast. Leave us a review and find me@jamieshapiro.me. That's J-A-M-I-S-H-A-P-I-R o.me, whether you're over 50 and just getting diagnosed. Or you're recognizing patterns you've lived with your whole life. This is your space to navigate ADHD with others who get it.

So grab your coffee and get comfortable, and let's dive in.

Hey, here's a quick heads up. Before we dive in. You may hear me mention the Sparkler Society in this episode, talking about it. It's happening right now, and here's the truth. My ADHD brain got so excited about this community that I may have jumped a little bit enthusiastically, a lot enthusiastically before everything was actually ready.

Classic ADHD move, right? We know what that's like. So here's what's actually happening. We've hit pause to make sure the Sparkler Society launches the right way because this is going to change lives, and I want it to be everything you deserve from day one. We're officially launching in July of 2026, and here's what you can look forward to.

Live group sessions every week, including support around decluttering and downsizing, body doubling, and ADHD group coaching. We are also addressing some of the big challenges of ADHD, worrying over spending and starting crafts only to lose steam. Membership in the Sparkler Society is going to save you from paying the ADHD tax.

We're talking real dollars back in your pocket, and most importantly, we are building a community of women who want to get their shit together. Together. Here's the exciting part. We're starting a wait list right now@jamieshapiro.me. That's J-A-M-I-S-H-A-P-I-R-O dot. Me and the VIPs who join early will get free access to shape the community before we officially launch in July.

You'll help us build this thing together. So if you hear me talking about the Sparkler Society, it's happening tomorrow. Just know it's coming in July and it's going to be worth the wait. Let's get to today's episode. I.

Welcome to the Grandma has ADHD podcast. I am so excited about today's episode because my guest is someone who has built her entire career around a phrase that I think every single one of us needs to hear. You are not broken. You are shame bound. There is a difference. Today, I am welcoming Dr. Shawn Horn to the show.

Dr. Horn is a licensed clinical psychologist with over two decades of experience in the mental health field. A TEDx speaker, a mental health educator, host of the Inspired Living Podcast, and the author of her brand new book, thrive Socially with Adult ADHD, known as The Shame Busting Psychologist.

Dr. Horn's mission is to help people heal, shame, ignite hope, and inspire what she calls wholehearted living. Through the lens of polyvagal theory and neuroscience, she helps people transform their relationships with themselves and others, and she has a gift for translating the wisdom of the therapy room into something that actually lands for real people, living real lives.

Her core belief. Education is intervention. And for so many of us who spent decades wondering what was wrong with us before finally getting an ADHD diagnosis, having someone hand us context, finally is everything. Dr. Shawn Horn, welcome to the grandma has ADHD podcast. I am so glad that you were here. Wow.

What a bio. 

Oh, thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here too. 

Yeah, we met actually at the APSAR conference. We were at the, American Professional Society. I can't remember what it stands for, maybe. I 

know 

 it was basically medical professionals, with ADHD and other neurodivergent traits.

Right. 

Like that. It's a medical organ, it's an organization for medical professionals to advance the field of ADHD treatment, diagnosis. And so it does draw in an academic scholarly crowd looking at the latest research and, where we go from there. So it was really, informative and interesting.

Well, it's funny, I think we met at lunch and I enjoyedthe discussions over meals a lot more than the medical terminology, which completely flew over my head. but it was a great opportunity for me to meet, really important medical professionals in this space, including you.

So I was so glad when you said you wanted to do my podcast and I have to say something that really stuck out for me and something that is such a big part of what I'm doing is the education is intervention. Because I have people all the time say to me, why does it matter? Like someone's lived their whole life with ADHD, maybe.

Why does it matter that they find out or do anything about it? 

It is a huge reframe that helps us go from a shame bound personal narrative of what's wrong with me? I'm not good enough. You know, I'm too much to a shame-free nervous system narrative where we start to look at, oh, this is what's happening inside of me, inside my brain.

And when you're able to identify what's happening and where the strengths are and the challenges are, then you're able to design very targeted interventions. we need accommodations, tricks and tools to help us in the areas that are executive functions are struggling. So if we don't identify it, then we're gonna be doing it with our bootstraps, you know, just pulling it up and biting the bullet and doing all that hard stuff.

 it's kind of like, hey, I haven't been able to see my whole life, so why do I need glasses? I've lived this way. it makes a really big difference. let's try it and see what's going on here. 

Right, right. So I don't recall, but I am hoping that I can go on out on a limb and ask you if you had been diagnosed with ADHD.

Yes, I have. 

Okay, 

good. I, I knew I had ADHD Pretty much, but it wasn't until I sat for the licensing exam and it was really, it was so challenging to focus on the areas of psychology that I wasn't interested in, like research methods and test and measurements and those things, like you talk about neuroscience or, psychotherapy, I'm all in.

That was my special interest, right? but the other stuff, I would just read it and as I was reading it, I was doing my grocery list. I was like talking to, holding conversations in my head that I'm gonna have later that day and then realizing I didn't comprehend. I read it, but I didn't comprehend what I was reading.

So that's when I saw the doctor and sought care to help me. And it made a world of difference. I was able to study, able to comprehend, and I passed that darn test. 

Good for you. Okay, so take me back to, may I call you Shawn or Dr. Shawn, or, yeah. Okay, 

Shawn. in my private practice, I go by, Dr. Horn on my social media and podcasts and everything.

I'm Dr. Shawn, just to kind of help make that distinction. 

Sure. So I will call you Dr. Shawn, because I think you earned those letters and you should wear them proudly. thank 

you. So 

That's my humble opinion. But tell me about little Shawn. 

Aw. Little Shawn, I say was the poster child for ADHD. I was always getting into something constantly in trouble.

Clumsy, bumps and bruises. intro for interrupting, for talking. Too much name on the board. starting in kindergarten, actually starting in preschool. They put us down for nap time and I would walk home, I'd sneak out and run home. Wow. And they couldn't contain me anywhere. if I went to the mall with my mom, she'd turn around, I was gone.

I'd be dancing in the middle of the mall for somebody and singing to them. And, I was absolutely fearless. And, a very whimsical child with a big heart. Loved people, so big, and animals and, And I was insightful as a child, but when I was in first grade, they gave us a test to look at our aptitude, and I saw dots and I love drawing.to.pictures.

So I drew pictures on it and when they got the results, instead of looking at my test, they said, they called my parents and said your child has a significant cognitive delay. They used the R word at that time, and so we're gonna have to put her in special ed. And when you're in special ed, you never really get out.

This is in the seventies. And so as everyone is learning how to read and how to do things, I was delayed because I didn't get that education. And so I was always behind and then not able to integrate back into the regular classroom. So it wasn't until I went to college that on a volleyball scholarship that I took all the entrance exams.

Failed them all. And they had an intervention program where, they had you take a class where you learned how to be a student, how to keep a master calendar, how to take notes, where to sit in the classroom. They told me, sit in the front row meet the professor ahead of time, how to get special notes from the professor, how to take tests, all sorts of things.

And what I didn't realize then, and they didn't realize or use the language, but they were teaching me executive functioning skills. So we know with ADHD, it's not a disorder of knowing. Knowledge, it's a disorder performing. 

So it's very interesting. A lot of times people say you need to have psych testing to know if you have ADHD.

But you and I learned at APSAR a that it's not only is it not recommended, but it can be a disadvantage because this study show that ADHD individuals outperform neurotypicals on those psychological tests because it's an environment that's contained. We don't have interruptions, and then our knowledge is able to perform better.

But if I'm on my way to the grocery store and I forgot to keep a list and I'm getting calls and I'm getting interruptions, I go to the store, I run into somebody and I, I come home and I go, oh my gosh, I forgot why I went to the store in the first place. I didn't get that item. So we, everything leaves our mind and it's hard to.

Do the daily things, to perform the things we have to do every day with our executive function. So once I was given those tools, then I had the key, and from there I was able to soar into who I am today. An established provider in the community, teaching at the medical school and TED Talk, author, blah, blah, blah, and I did not read a book, a novel until I went to college.

I was told I was dumb. I was told I would never be able to do math. I was told I would never be able to go to college. The kids teased me when I went to the special ed class, when I was removed. 

 and the negative feedback that I received constantly from teachers and peers, it was just such a challenge.

So that's one of the reasons why I'm such a shame buster. Is because having ADHD and trying to understand who you are as you're being told who you are by these people, these toxic messages, it just comes it, it comes hand in hand. 

So we have to deconstruct this, who we've been told that we are.

One of my favorite phrases I say is transform from the person you were programmed to be into, the person you were designed to be. I was designed to do everything I'm doing right now, but I was programmed not to. I was programmed by a shame bound message that said I wasn't good enough. I was too much.

Because I do have a big personality. I will say, 

I might resemble that remark. 

 I say we're unicorns in a donkey world, you know? And I just hadn't met my fellow unicorns and nobody was around to tell me, oh my gosh, you're not a donkey. You're this gorgeous unicorn. And it's special.

And it is like, oh my gosh. And so I would feel so guilty for my big dreams. when people go, oh, that's too much. and like it was grandiose or narcissistic or something. 'cause other people didn't understand the dreams that I held. And when I realized there was a day, I realized after being told that it was too much, you're doing too much.

That I wasn't doing too much for me. I was doing too much for them, and they were uncomfortable. Standing in the midst of someone who is pursuing their dreams. when we, with, when we suppress our dreams, we will get reactive to people who don't suppress their dreams. who do they think they are?

They think they're so special. They think actually there's someone that gives themselves permission to step out of their comfort zone and pursue those things. 

 and we can switch gears and let it inspire us rather than being critical. Of them doing those things, be let it be inspiration.

Yeah. I 

So, yeah, 

no, sorry. There's my A DH ADHD popping up for you. No, because I have a thought in my head as you're describing the unicorn in the donkey's world, and I'm like, that's, I had never considered, it's such the ugly duckling story, right? It is such the, there was ne never anything wrong with me.

it was just my brain thought differently and you put me in this box and then to, and shame is when you put yourself in that box, right? When you start to believe what everybody says about you, and then internalize. That's, I'm not a, a doctor or PhD, but, 

yeah. Well, even the PhDs don't understand shame, I'll tell you that. So let me give you a a little shame psychology lesson. I would 

love that. Yes. 

Yeah. So there are different types of shame. We have what's called a shame, what I call a shame reflex, which is hardwired into our survival brain, and it's there for our social survival.

So it is measured as early as 15 months of age, 15 months of age. It is literally a reflex. All shame is a social emotion. It comes from the outside. So I can be fine. I could be dancing, doing something, or let's say I'm at a store and I take some gum. I want that gum. I take it, go home, parent sees it.

What did you do? And I have that shame reaction. Shame reaction is it's like a spanking to the soul. It's deep and it hurts and we wanna hide and we wanna, go behind the couch and put a blanket over our head and Oh no. And so that's a shame reflex. And that shame is there to help us survive in a community.

It's teaching us don't do this thing. Or else you'll be exiled. So shame is a social motion that teaches you that you feel when you violate another person's standards, somebody else's standards. Now, this is different than guilt because guilt is measured at six years of age, five to six years of age. And that's what we feel when we violate our own standards.

So shame is somebody else's standards. Guilt is my standards. So now I took the gum and I go home and I'm feeling really bad about it. 'cause I know that was a really bad thing to do. So then it all emotions have a function. They're motivating us to do take a proper action. So that would be going up to my mom's mom.

I still, I took the gum, I'm sorry. And then we go back to the store. So shame reflex is there doing its job protecting us. Now, healthy shame is the, when somebody corrects a behavior. So when the mother says no, stealing is not okay. it is a strong message. It's not like just don't do it.

It's you do not do that. You do not kick the dog. You do not hurt other people. You do not go in the street. it's very firm message. It's saying, this thing you're doing is bad. Don't do it. But toxic shame goes from social correction to identity condemnation. You are bad. So let's say I go to the store and the person goes, you little thief.

How could you do that? And now I am a bad person. That's toxic shame. So healthy shame we wanna keep, because this helps develop our conscious and our values and so forth, and learn the rules of, our society. But toxic shame is the, at the core of our emotional and behavioral struggles it's what we are driven to soothe with unhealthy coping skills, what we try to avoid.

So it motivates our, problematic reactions and behaviors. And if we agree with that, toxic shame, if we walk away and we say, yes, I am bad, then we get what's called a shame bound identity, which is a core belief that I'm flawed, I'm not good enough. And we will then go through life gathering evidence to support that.

See, I'm not good enough. See, and we will it will motivate behaviors to cover it. I call 'em shame shields, like perfectionism, people pleasing making enough money, having the right career, education, things like that. So we could say, see world I am okay 'cause I'm beautiful. See world, I'm okay 'cause I drive the right car.

You know, things like that. And this really is very AP. Oppressive causes a lot of problems. And then when it does, people say, see, something really is wrong with me. No, nothing is wrong with you. It is this behavior that we need to help you. Correct or learn another tool or another skill. so it's important to name the shame so we can tame it.

If, and most of times when people talk about shame in the media, they are saying they're talking about toxic shame, but they'll call it guilt, or they'll call it shame in general. And now you'll hear people say, what, is this all this shame? So shame's good for you. We shouldn't get rid of shame.

Now they're talking about. Healthy shame. And you're right. when we see someone that doesn't have shame and you hear people go shame on you, they're saying Correct your feel conviction. This is not okay. And I'm scared. It's like stranger danger. You're not feeling stranger danger and this is dangerous for you, for us, for society.

So be corrected. That is the motivation behind that. Shame on you kind of thing. Hopefully, but yeah. 

Yeah. So you just actually crystallized something for me. And that isn't, and I've had this theory on, why I keep getting certifications, why I, and I always, and I guess it does tie to that, so I have my story back to, I am in sixth grade and, first of all, I couldn't read until second grade, and so I didn't get to go to first grade with the other kids that were my age.

I wasn't held back. I just had an early birthday. So it was like one of those situations, but I knew that I didn't get to go, I wasn't, I could and I knew that I couldn't read and there was a lot of, a lot of punishment around that. Growing up. I would be lost, I would be locked in my room.

My, my former stepmother would, don't come outta your room till you figured out how to read. and I, 

okay. 

Yeah. Uhhuh. and then I did finally learn to read and then I caught up and then when my mom remarried and a lot of my friends and my step-siblings were all in the gifted program.

And they were all getting called out to go to gifted. And, so finally I took the gifted test and didn't pass it. it turns out now, and I recognize it, that I had so much anxiety about the test, that they all agreed that it would be in my best interest not to take it again. Because to me it was like a representation of was I smart or was I not smart?

 And it's interesting because when my oldest child was labeled gifted, Before we knew that they had ADHD by the way I started to realize that, that gift wasn't such a gift because they struggled more socially than my two children who were not quote unquote labeled gifted. Although as a parent, I now understand that gifted didn't necessarily have to be how you test on the gifted score.

It can be one child can, has perfect pitch and can pick up a musical instrument, but we don't test for that. I happen to be able to speak, very extemporaneously. We don't test for that. And so I have always carried this, I'm not as smart or whatever, like really underneath it all.

Yes. and so to me, I don't know, which came first, the chicken or the egg, but the, all the certifications, was it to cover up that inadequacy or was it just that I can't stay still because I can't stay still? 

And it might be all of it, right? Yeah, all of it. I, for myself, I felt, I knew as a child that I wanted to be a therapist.

But I remember one day in an internship site, the supervisor was a Native American indigenous member. And he said, Shawn, he paused. He said this in his deep wise way. Why is it so important for you to be, for people to know you're smart? And I just felt like that nailed me to the wall, you know?

And it was 

like, 

well, where do I even start with that story? And I do remember thinking, if I get my doctorate, nobody will ever question my intelligence again. they will know I am capable. And it was so important to me that people saw me as reliable, dependable, consistent. Capable, all those things.

And so I spent my, the last, the later half of my life trying to demonstrate that. 

And you talking about reading, I couldn't read either until about second or third grade. And when I was writing my book, I realized that I had undiagnosed dysgraphia and dyslexia. To this day, I don't hold a pin in the tripod way where you hold it with the tips of your fingers.

I hold it in a fist. Oh, like this. And I would get in so much trouble for not holding it correctly, but I could not, now, I didn't realize that's dysgraphia. I, I was late timeing my shoes. I couldn't figure that out. That's dysgraphia, zippers, buttons. But the other thing is I couldn't do phonics, and still to this day, I cannot do phonics.

And I just recognize the sound. if somebody says a word, I'll figure out, oh, I recognize the word, but to sound out a word is quite challenging. Basic words not, but if it's real complicated. And, I didn't know that was part of the dysgraphia dyslexia situation.

And then also auditory processing. I can't process 

Someone talking as fast as they talked and especially as a little person. So as a little person we have this 30% rule, which is that our executive functions, our thinking brain develops at a speed that's 30% less than our neurotypical peers.

So that means when you start kindergarten, your thinking brain is three years old when you are 12. Your thinking brain is eight. When you're 18, your thinking brain is 12. it stops at the age of 28. And there may be areas that were really advanced, but there could be other areas of executive functions that are delayed.

 when I read that, I thought, oh my gosh, this makes so much sense. not only was I young, 'cause my birthday's in August, so I was the youngest in the class, but also my executive functions were even younger. So when you think about it, to actually accomplish what we accomplished while being at a 30%, 

 if it was golf, don't they call it handicap? like you're at a disadvantage to think about what we overcame to do. All that we did is remarkable. 

Mm-hmm. And. 

It never got acknowledged. 

Right. I love the analogy, and I use it pretty frequently of, ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire. How they said that she did everything that he did, they danced together.

Only she did it backwards and in high heels. And that's how I think of ADHD. And by the way, I'm gonna ruminate unless I say something to you and you know what I mean by it's just gonna go on and on and on in my brain. I think I said I was the youngest in my class, but I was the oldest. Did I? 

Oh, 

did I?

Okay. 

So I'm, so January, I'm her 

youngest, but that could 

be my auditory. And then you said, I'm like, oh, I have to. Otherwise it's gonna sit with me. I mean, you know how that be. It's okay. 

Oh, I do. 

So my birthday's in January and January, December 31st when I was growing up, at least in Florida, was the cutoff.

So they're like, let's move her, to first grade. And and I didn't get to go. So anyway. 

I just needed to. 

I also really related to you about getting in trouble and the one of the ways we get shamed is by being given expectations that are not developmentally appropriate or being expected to know how to do things that nobody taught us or we weren't like mentored.

We didn't have an apprenticeship, so to speak. So go to your room and read. How does that happen? 

in fairness, they were teaching it at school and again, interspaced, I wasn't interested. And I am combined presentation of a DH adhd, so I definitely was hyperactive in my body as well. 

Make me sit and do something that I'm not interested in and it is not going to happen. So in fairness, I had been exposed, but now understanding my childhood through the lens of, oh, that whole time I had a DH, adhd, I discovered it at 45 when my oldest child was diagnosed. 

ah, yes. hyperactivity in girls and women is different.

Yes. 

 for little girls, it's the talking. But also the thinking, the hyper thoughts. And I'm gonna tell you something really funny that a lot of people don't know is women with ADHD, one way they express the hyperactive, impulsive thing is they're always playing with their hair. 

Did you 

see?

So they say, and you're talking to them and they're twirling their hair like this. They'll put it up, they'll put it down, they'll flip it from this side to that side. Uhhuh constantly. So I'll have clients come into sessions and they're just touching their hair, and I'm just like, okay, we need to assess for this.

It's just one of those funny things, like we mask everything else. 

But we don't notice that necessarily. But it is, yeah, 

 I'm learning stemming too that, that stemming isn't everything that I thought stemming was, and stemming can be, like a tap on your leg or it can be, touching your hair a bunch of times.

Or my child was telling me necklace. Huh? 

Like a necklace. I have a lot of clients that will 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Necklace. Yeah. 

it's funny, I, when I was a kid and again, didn't know I would chew on my hair all the time or I would chew on the ribbon on my shirt or, yeah. I'm also in fairness, I don't know if I touch my hair all the time or not, but I see myself on camera and my hair's frizzing a little bit, so I don't always do this little twirl thing, but do you see how it smooths it at the bottom and it makes it look clear?

So I don't, I have a DH adhd. It's very possible that I do that on a, I'm gonna be more aware now, which, what's another thing I love about doing this podcast is every time I interview someone I learn so much more. So don't, yeah. So you have a podcast as well, right? 

Yes. Inspired living. Okay. So I, took a little break on with it when I was doing the TEDx and then the book process rolled right after that.

 I haven't published anything for a while, but I'm going to start again and there'll be some up and coming. 

Nice. Nice. It's fun. I love it. it's my favorite thing. I have two favorite things. One is the podcast and the other is presentations. I love standing up in front of a crowd and I didn't know that people didn't like to public speak.

I was like, really? 

How 

does that happen? 

Yeah, 

you don't like it? 

Oh, I love it. It's oh yeah, drugs to me. I go, I come out with such a high, it's high. I love it. High. Yeah. 

Yeah. But I found out that it's like one of the biggest fears for, it's like more people fear that sometimes more than death.

Yeah. Apologies. That's Benji. I will sometimes incorporate him. It's a good time to take a pause. I'm gonna him a treat.

I used to dread visiting my mother because of the clutter. The piles, the chaos. We all experienced clutter differently. For me, it was a source of anxiety and stress. I'd try to help and she'd get defensive. We were both frustrated and it was destroying our relationship. Then we discovered something that changed everything.

My mother had a DHD, and she'd been living with it undiagnosed for over 76 years. Suddenly it all made sense. The clutter wasn't laziness. The disorganization wasn't a choice. Her brain was wired differently and no amount of willpower or traditional organizing advice was ever going to work. That discovery became my life's work.

It's why I started. The grandma has a DHD podcast. It's why I became an ADHD coach and specialist, and it's why I am so passionate about helping women like my mother and maybe like you, because here's what I know, clutter affects us emotionally and physically. It damages relationships, it creates shame, spirals, and the overwhelm of not knowing where to start keeps you frozen.

But it's okay to ask for help. In fact, it's brave. If you are in the San Diego or Coachella Valley area, my team at Silver Linings Transitions can come to your home. We'll help you tackle the clutter with compassion, not judgment. I also work with women virtually through one-on-one ADHD coaching, and if you are overwhelmed with clutter.

I can connect you with trusted resources in your area. Visit Jamie shapiro.me to get started or grab my book. This explains so much on Amazon. My mother and I got our relationship back. You can get your piece back too. That's J-A-M-I-S-H-A-P-I-R o.me.

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Hi, I'm Jamie Shapiro. I am an ADHD coach and the founder of Silver Linings Transitions, where we do home organizing and move management. And you know, I did not know that I had a DHD for years, and I remember personally hiring an organizing company to come in and help me because I could just never get it together.

And it really wasn't until I understood. ADHD and its impact that I realized why, and so I wrote a book. This explains so much understanding undiagnosed ADHD, because I just feel like there's so many answers that people don't even know that they're looking for, especially generations of women who. Grew up thinking that ADHD was just for the hyperactive little boy.

It turns out it's not only a body that can be hyperactive, but it can be a mind that's hyperactive. So you can have a wonderful day and you can have something wonderful happen. And then that one negative thing that happens is gonna be that thing that takes you into that spiral and it's gonna be keeping you up at night and you're gonna be ruminating on it.

And I think that, you know, we as women carry. So much shame and so much how it's supposed to be. I'm supposed to have it together and I remember that was the case for me. I, I remember how is it that all of these women have so much consistency and their kids get the sticker charts and everything seems to run well and I'm the one that's missing parent teacher conferences and my house, you know, is always in chaos.

And, and then again, that negative self-talk. So I, my mission is really to educate people who have no idea that ADHD has the impact that it does. And it's to connect you to other people who get it and who will make you feel that you aren't alone, you're not crazy, you're not lazy, you're not stupid, you're not too much.

You just have a brain that was wired differently and I can't wait for you to join me in the community that I'm building. The workshops that I'm creating, the book club that I'm hosting, because I know that I am going to make a profound difference in your life.

And we are back. And I, I keep it very real. Dr. Shawn and I did give him like a really nice walk before we got onto the podcast thinking okay.

About smarted it and it's gonna happen. But I have my regular podcast area in my home that is a little prettier than the rest of the chaos. But he has now figured out when I sit in this chair that he's got me hostage and he. He will disrupt me. normally I go into the break with a, a little bit of a, like a infomercial about, my business and what it means to like, and share this podcast because it's how we're building the audience to de-stigmatize ADHD, especially in older generations where, and you probably understand exactly what I'm saying, older generations aren't as willing to say, Hey, I need therapy or I need help, there, if there's something wrong with you, we don't talk about it.

And so that's one of the reasons that. That this education is so important. The education is intervention. And so normally I would say please, and share the podcast. And then I would also say that, I do the podcast as really just a labor of love and for my learning and my audience learning.

But I do have a business called Silver Linings Transitions, and a lot of people don't know about the industry that I'm in, and that is senior and specialty Move management. I don't know if you're aware of it, but 

mood management 

move, MOVE. moving is, do you like moving? do you enjoy it?

Is that fun for you to have to physically pack up your house and move it? 

Absolutely not. 

 So my industry, NASA, N-A-S-M-M, specializes in assisting older adults and anybody else who wants it, with all of the logistics of moving. So we all are part of a national organization and we all handle our moves very differently.

But my company in San Diego, is part of the industry and, you can find somebody that does what we do in other places, which is especially important for people with ADHD because we struggle with executive functioning and there's, I can't think of a bigger task than moving when all the executive functioning.

But I tell people, you can spend your vacation days on vacation rather than packing and unpacking boxes. So we handle all the logistics. in that pause, they will have heard those commercials and now you know about it. So you can share it with anybody that you work with as well. we're all over the us, Canada, a couple other countries, and, they find that@nasm.org.

Okay. So back to the podcast. I wanted to ask you about polyvagal nerve, and I'm, so you tell me, I was gonna ask you what I was gonna ask you, but I'll ask you and then you tell me if I'm right. Polyvagal is when you notice, or maybe No, that's reticular activating system. No, please tell me.

Polyvagal I was thinking of when you go looking for something, you're gonna find it. And that's reticular activating system. The reticular. But polyvagal is what? 

It's a theory about the nervous system, like what our nervous system states are and how we get dysregulated and reregulated back.

 With it. ADHD, we know emotion regulation is, is really challenging as well as rejection sensitive dysphoria. It doesn't matter what age you're at. We have that, which is a quick reaction and a slow return to calm. That's the dysregulated, nervous system. And so polyvagal theory maps out the three different states, and in my book, I use the analogy of a traffic light, green, yellow, red, green being our social engagement state where we feel peaceful, we feel grounded, we're open, we're curious.

That is where we learn the best. That's where we grow the best. That's where we, the best of us is. In that state, so to speak. The yellow fight and flight, we all know that. That's where we get angry. We get worried, we get anxious. But for the ADHD, it's different, which is, again, we're unicorns.

 So we'll have to talk about that difference. But just in general, the yellows of fight and flight. our bodies have this amazing ability to help it survive. Just like when your body gets too hot, we sweat to cool it off.

 when our nervous system gets too hot, so to speak, with a fight flight, we have a a valve, like a bathtub, an overflow that kicks in to keep it from flooding, like the bathtub, and that's the red light, which is the dorsal vagal shutdown down state. And that's where we go, when we feel that we're in the face of life-threatening danger, our system shuts down. And so when we're there, our heart rate gets slow. Our blood pressure is low. A lot of times people say, oh, I have a low blood pressure.

I my I have a high pain tolerance. As if it's like a virtue, a good thing. But they are not the poster child for health and wellness. And so you're thinking, you're not running every day, basically that's happening 'cause your body thinks it's dying, right? So it begins to shut down the systems and increases our pain tolerance because it's thinking, I've been trying to run away from this lion in the yellow light.

I haven't been able to escape it. It's still here and now it's on top of me. So if I act dead, it might go away. Or if I don't feel the pain, I'll at least be eaten without it being so miserable. And so it's helping us to even survive the experience of death. And so these three states, we flow through them and appropriately if we're, like, right now, you and I we're having this great conversation, but let's say all of a sudden there's this big boom in the environment and get startled and run to see what's going on, or I do.

And then we come back, our heart is racing. We're, oh God, that was really scary. This thing happened. and then we reconnect and then I'm able to come back down to calm, so we do this all the time. Let's say there's an emergency and I need to go take action. The boom was an accident in the parking lot, and I need to make sure the person's okay.

So I kick into this functional mode where I am serving the emergency, and that could be my dorsal shutdown, which is helping me attend to something without the emotional charge to it. So everyone has, every state has a purpose, but so important to know our states because each state has different needs.

When you're in your fight and flight, you need to expel the energy when you're in the shutdown. We need to slowly awaken the energy and help ourselves to recovery. When we're in the green light, we need to optimize that and just enjoy our relationships and so forth. He outlines the three states, but he also introduces two very critical new concepts, which is a concept of neuroception and co-regulation.

And so neuroception is that we all have this built in alarm security system. It's constantly scanning the environment. Almost like your malware on your computer. It's in the background and it's always scanning. And it scans in three ways. It scans inside the body, how's everything operating?

Is the computer functioning the way it should? Is it too slow? It needs to update and it will alert us if something's wrong. Hey, your computer needs an update. So we then do what we need to do. It also looks at where we go outside of us. So the computer looks at, oh, you wanna go to that website? I'm gonna determine if it's safe to enter.

Or not safe to enter. If it's safe, we just automatically go. If it's not safe, we get this big alert saying unsafe. Do you still want to proceed? We make decisions. So when we are entering a room, I see you, my body is detecting whether you're safe or not. 

And it specifically pays attention to our eyes, the expression of our eyes and our eyebrows, and the tone of our voice.

It listens to the posity of voice. So like how you talk to your dog or your children. Think of Mr. Rogers, Mary Poppins. it's kind of sing songy and it makes neuroception just loves that. But if the voice is too harsh, screechy, or it's monotone, it does not like that. 

Mm. 

It likes eyes that are very expressive.

So I'm take off my glasses here, but I'm gonna show you the eyebrow pop. 

Mm. 

You know, when people see and they go, hi, and the eyebrows lift and it makes you feel good. They're happy to see you. But if the eyebrows are flat and they go, hello Jamie, and you're like, what is going on?

This is how Botox is a problem to neuroception 

because 

it can't Botox. Is to the face. What cutting a tail off is to a dog. 

Interesting. 

 when you cut a tail to the dog, they say the tail tells the tail, right? 

Mm-hmm. 

So if a dog's tail straight up, if it's out, straight, if it's wagging, if it's tucked under their belly, it tells you a lot.

 Where that dog's. State is, are they in a state of aggression, fear, or are they happy? 

Our eyebrows do the same. 

When we lift our eyebrows, it's like wagging, I'm happy. 

Oh, wow. 

When it's down frowned, it's anger. when it's arched in the middle, you know I'm scared, right?

 So it tells us what's going on without someone speaking, but when you Botox it, you can't read that. 

And neuroception is going to go, something's wrong, and we detect something's wrong. It alerts the fight and flight automatically. 

And when that happens, all of our senses get highly attuned to things of threat.

So we listen to, we'll hear all the dogs barking, the cars driving by the door is closing, but we're not gonna hear Mary Poppins in the corner because my body's prioritizing the threat. But what's interesting is it turns up the volume. And so normally someone would talk and you don't think they're yelling, but when you're in that state, you go, why are you yelling?

Person goes, I'm not yelling. See right there you're yelling. And it will exaggerate the facial expression. So if somebody looks at you surprised, like, what? And they have a surprise Look, you'll see a frown like what? With like a scolding look on their face. And then you go, you're so angry. And they go, I'm not angry.

I'm just surprised. Like, that's not surprise, that's anger. So it exaggerates what we see and what we hear. So in those states, we're gonna be more sensitive to sounds. Misophonia the irritation with noise, chewing, smacking, kissing sounds, it's gonna drive us nuts, and that's, what happens with Neuroception.

The perfect example of this is our animals. Think about just right now, you saw your dog, you walk in the room, the dog sees, he is ah, I'm happy my Jamie's here, right? But then let's say you're on vacation in someone's house sitting, and you go, let me see Benji. and Benji gets on the phone and you're like, hi, Benji.

Hi. And Benji's, like no acknowledgement. Looking to the side, not looking at your face, not responding to your voice. Now what's the difference? They do when you're in person, but they don't when you're on a digital platform? The difference is that when we have human communication on non-human devices, it blocks all the information that Neuroception requires to determine if I'm safe or not.

And because of that, because it can't determine that it will immediately sound the alarms, something is in danger. And we go in a fight and flight state, and this is what my TEDx was all about. I was introducing this concept saying, because we're having more conversations on Zoom and on digital platforms, texting, FaceTiming our nervous systems are artificially forced to be in a fight and flight long term then we're meant to be.

And so when your body stays there, it starts to get stuck somewhat. This is what Neuroception says. And we start to get all of our health problems. We'll get autoimmune stuff, ra stuff, just our body starts falling apart. 'cause you can't run a sprint. As if it's a marathon, you just can't, your body's gonna eventually break down.

And this is the problem for us, a DH, adhd or is that because we don't have the chemicals we need to be motivated to initiate, to stop, to to see things to completion. We will rely on the stress hormones to help us get things done. And so we live in that yellow light and sometimes so much, we don't even know what green light feels like.

And because we're outta sync with the world, when we are in green light, we get, we're it's so dramatic to go from the energy, the life of the party. Woo-hoo to when we hit the off switch. We're like, I'm done.

And we don't wanna talk and we don't wanna be around people. They go, what's wrong with you?

You go, nothing's wrong with me. I'm just really relaxed. I go, are you depressed? And because the world has always been telling us that our realities are not our realities, that we're not trying when we are, that we're being lazy when we're not, that we're, having mal like problematic intentions when we don't, we've, we're conditioned to doubt ourselves.

So we either think when we get to that green light that well, maybe I am depressed because I don't wanna be around people. Most people when they're in the green light want to be around people, but people exhaust this 'cause it takes a lot of executive functioning, brainpower to manage all of that. We have to follow the conversations, not forget things.

I remember Benji, 'cause that was my favorite movie as a kid, right? So it was like, ah, Benji, I love that. And, but otherwise I would not remember the name of your dog. that's an example of an accommodation. Like you use a, you associate it with something, helps you remember. 

I have to share with you.

 so this was one of the things that I learned as a result of my podcast when I had Wilma Felman on, and she, I don't know how it came up, but she said, she used the term qui and describing herself, squirrel. And she said, squirrel. So she said she's parts squirrel, right? So pounce, pounce, pounce.

And then turtle retreating. And I'm like, I call that hitting my wall. And I used to be like one of the first people to go to a party, really excited to be there. And then usually one of the first people to leave because I had hid it and I am like, I'm out quickly. And there's a, there's an expression, a Jewish goodbye is you say goodbye and you never leave.

 I would like just go because I had hid it and I even had somebody comment. Noticing. Why are you always the first person to leave? No idea, by the way. No. That it had anything to do with, but exactly what you just described. 

Yeah. And friends get so upset. I call it the off switch. It just, all of our hormones and everything, it's just dumps, 

So it goes with we get big bursts of stuff and so we have all this energy. We're really excited. But yeah, whenwe're done. We're done. And we don't see it coming. And it is just done. And people will wonder if we're upset, if we're mad, if we didn't have fun. If we're bored, it's like, no, I had a great time.

I'm so glad to be here with you, but I am done. Like I wanna go home. and so we get scared. We think maybe I am depressed or maybe I'm getting dementia. Because when we get super relaxed, we forget everything. 'cause we're not using that EE energy to keep it in the forefront of our mind. So we go to remembering and being really busy to relax and now I can't remember anything.

And so it's really confusing for us 'cause we think the yellow light is a good sign for us. And the yet green light is not. We have to relearn this. And according to polyvagal, the way that we get downregulated is through relationship, through being face-to-face with our safe people. And we see their eyebrows, our nervous systems, like I didn't mention, the third way it senses, it looks at our interaction.

So our nervous systems read each other. So think about when you're on a Zoom or internet, you see the green bars, the yellow bars, or the red bars. That's what happens. Like it's saying, oh, we're green, we're good. Yellow, something's like weird red. I'm outta here because the vibes are not okay.

 So it's sensing all those things. We're becoming so isolated as a society because our communities are getting smaller. I just had a meeting with, an eating disorder program that used to have these great groups that they'd offer all the time and they were telling me about the program.

I said, do you have the groups? And they go, oh, we're only virtual now. Huge mistake because our nervous systems have to be with other nervous systems and we have to, or else we're not going to be well. And so it's medicine to our soul to be in nature with our animals, with our people. If we don't have people, like a lot of people.

Have had the experience where people have not been safe for them. So much trauma, so they really feel healed among trees, among the water, the beaches, the mountains, or with their animals or their crafts. Something where you're in it, you're feeling it, you're smelling it you're with it.

 Rather than in our houses with our face on a digital screen. 

Which is going to freak our nervous system out. So this is why it's so important. Education is intervention because when people learn this, they're like. That's why I act like that when I'm there. When we're in the red light, we have functional freeze.

We go, we like, unlike other people who lay on the couch saying, I wanna die. I am so depressed. We're like out there doing stuff, but the way you could tell we're in a red light is we can't make decisions. We can't think, we don't know what we want. We're just like numb. We don't feel good, we don't feel bad.

We're just eh, there. 

And, 

 so we don't notice it like other people do. And we have introception problems, so we don't sense inside our bodies very well. So it's hard to know where we're at and then we get burned out. So when you learn this model, you go, oh yeah, I do get burned out. I don't like these things.

And I can relate to that. So if I'm in my red light, I need to get out of that. 'cause if that is really bad for my health. So to get to my green light, I have to do these tools, these hacks that help me to get to the green light. And we spell 'em out, all the things you do. And that will help someone learn how to direct their nervous system rather than having their nervous system direct them.

We use our thinking brain to guide, but we have to know what we're guiding to know what it is. We can hack it. 

So we're in our red. We should be finding our safe people. Finding nature. Is that what you're saying? To make sure, 

yes. We have to begin to regulate our nervous system again or for the first time if we've been dysregulated through our whole lives.

And this is where somatic therapies and body therapies come into play. 'cause historically therapy has relied on talking, intellectualizing thinking, but nervous system does not have the same language. It doesn't. So it has feelings sensing. Movement. So we have to engage it differently. And that's where you might hear people talk about ventral vagal exercises.

And they're things that stimulate the green light, like singing, humming, breathing exercises, facial yoga, smiling things that, where you manipulate your ears, your smells, these trigger the, polyvagal nerve that is connected to the green light. And so if we exercise that every day, were strengthening it, which means we'll have more emotional resilience, we'll be slower at the activation, and we'll be quicker at the recovery.

Okay. Wow. You are, there's so much information. And to think that they labeled you with that r you know, 

I know. 

Crazy. The, yeah, the special bus, the special classroom. Okay. a couple more things 'cause we need to wrap up. I try to keep my podcast 30 minutes-ish knowing that, people with a DH, ADHD have short attention spans.

 but there's one question that I always ask my guests that I wanted to ask you, and then I wanna make sure that we've covered everything you wanted to cover. 'cause I always ask my guests to give me some questions. So the question that I like to ask my guests is, if you could push a button and not have ADHD ever, would you push the button?

No. 

Yeah, 

I know it sounds, you would think we would, but Oh my goodness. I love the whimsical ness, the creativity, the artistic stuff the dream big,

 I've only had one guest say he'd push the button. 

Oh, really? 

One. Yeah. And I think I've asked at least 65, 70 people at this point. I wouldn't push it.

Definitely things I would trade in, but that's not the question. yes. Okay. 

That's right. 

So, all right. Anything, first of all, tell us again about your book so people can find it and find you. 

Yeah. when I did my TEDx, they had a procurement video that about getting speakers and they said, speakers come and they say, I'm an inspirational speaker.

Run the other way. They're a dime a dozen. We want people to have big ideas worthy to be shared so that they're creating something that will advance our. Standing or the way to stimulate thinking. So I applied that to my book. I didn't want it to be another book that's like all the other ADHD books out there.

I wanted to introduce something that would be new and help the field progress. 

So I took the polyvagal theory and I applied it to ADHD. To, to help us understand the ADHD nervous system, how it is different. 'cause there's so many parts about how we, our hormones are regulated, everything.

And then to look at the executive functions within a social and relational context. So you hear about working memory, remembering things. that happens with people too. if my friends are outta sight, they're outta mind, And not because I don't care, I do care, but I have to have a system in place.

So that my care is communicated effectively. 

 if I'm late, they're gonna feel I'm disrespecting their time. I need a system in place to help me be on time to understand how to have perspective taking. But not only that, also. My last chapter is on, is titled Who Told You That? And it's about deconstructing these messages and understanding that we are vulnerable to narcissistic abuse and exploitation.

And so how to have discernment, how to reconnect with our discernment, our inner wisdom, and make wise choices with the people in our lives and also who we give ear to and how they've defined us. in a nutshell, the book has four components. It teaches a shame-free mindset so that we can open ourselves up to learning and growing and teaches social, the polyvagal theory, about the nervous system.

So we can, if we're dysregulated, we're not gonna be able to use our executive functions. 

We gotta get regulated so that we can use the best of our thinking brain. The social executive functions to help us apply it to relationships. And then finally the self-defining we get growing into the adult skin that we have and recognizing our authority that we're the adult in the room now.

We're not gonna get in trouble anymore. You know, there's no principle to go see. So we have to, have a new understanding for navigating the social world. So I put that all together in this little book that's full of meat and small font. Sorry about that. Someone brought that to my attention, but I guess that makes it all fit into that book.

And, yeah. So I have that. And then and the readers are giving me tremendous feedback as well as the experts that in the field, have been. Welcoming it with great enthusiasm. Enthusiasm. 

I mean, you are an absolute wealth of knowledge and to write a book, having just done it myself, that's a co, like a, that's a feat.

 I don't think people understand I, anyway, but to do it when you're also dyslexic, so 

it was the hardest thing I ever have done. 

Right. good for you. Yeah, so thank you. There were one other question that I wanted to make sure that we covered because I think it's so relevant to, to the audience, that you had given me, 'cause I always ask my guests, can you help me out a little bit?

And you had said, what does expectation management look like for seniors with ADHD? 

Oh gosh. Well, ADHD involves a lot of expectation management because we were given unrealistic expectations. we continue to hold unrealistic expectations for ourselves and have black and white thinking and we miss the whole picture.

So you have the mom at home that's looking at the neighbor who's got the Martha Stewart stuff going on and she's working and she has her kids and all this stuff and her that's falling apart and she's comparing herself to that. But she's single. The other woman's married, she's working. The other woman's not not knowing how to size things up.

And we often compare to others. 'cause when we were in classroom, we couldn't figure out what was going on. So we would have to look at other people and what are they doing, what do they do, what do they say? And we still do that as adults. Like everybody else is retiring, I should retire. Well maybe not, everybody else is getting married.

Maybe I shouldn't, maybe not. so we need to stop doing that referencing and also

understand what would be reasonable for, find that a lot of mature adults. When they hear about this stuff, there's a lot of grief that goes on. They started shoulda, would've, coulda had to. What would it have been like if I hadn't had this? If somebody understood what could I have become? There's a lot of sadness with that.

And that's true. And it is sad. It is sad when we realize how we've been so impacted. 

But we can look at it from different angles. It's sad. And we have an opportunity now to create the life that we are hoping for within the, what we have. So maybe I remember my mom being irritated with this whole reach your potential dream big.

And she just, she said it felt like pressure. Like she has to have this big dream. She has to be doing, reaching her full potential, and she didn't like that. 

And I think. There is a lot of that noise. And we start to become content and focus on the small things that bring us joy. And that is more than good enough.

But if we keep looking at others, it's not good enough. 'cause so-and-so over there, look at what all they're doing. Where I didn't do my dream. I didn't write my book. I wanted to, but I didn't, so I didn't, I wasn't good enough. I'm not doing it right. 

But I really enjoy sitting outside on my swing and looking at my garden and, just tick looking at the sky, that's heaven on earth.

So we have to adjust those expectations for ourselves and have a new measuring stick for what life should be versus how we've been thinking life should be. 

And hearing people tell us how life should be with, from the programs they're selling and we get trapped in those things. And, uh. So, yes.

Expectation management is huge on many levels. 

Oh, absolutely. And that's a, I could, we could go into a whole other conversation on that. So before we end the podcast, is there anything that kind of that you would ruminate if I didn't ask you or you didn't mention on this interview?

Okay. So the last thought I would say to that one is that any, every single person at any given time, at any age, as adults, I'm saying struggle in one of three areas. Relationships, finances, or health, period. No one is an exception to that. So when we're shame bound and having ADHD, we lose sight of how much it's hard to be human.

And we see people's outside, presentations and we'll go, wow, look at them. Look at their kids. Look at don't fall for it. 

You mean the fake book? 

Yes. Everyone struggles. Being human is hard. 

I agree. It is hard, 

and it's also wonderful. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

That's it. That's what I would add there.

Yeah. Yeah. 

I love it. this was really a great, and one of the longest interviews I think I've had, but you just had so much to share. and I so much appreciate your time. Like I said, I always learn so much when I get to, to connect with experts in the field who also have the lived experience of ADHD, which is a totally different different experience.

So I always like to end my podcast, which really ties back into one of the things that I read which is education is intervention. And that is, that I always encourage my audience that, we do meet this new reality with grief and with with relief and, but it is never too late to make the rest of your life the best of your life.

So thank you so much for being here. Thank you to everyone who listened. you can find Dr. Shawn Horn and read her book.

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