Grandma Has ADHD

Episode 87 - What are Adaptive Accommodations and Why Might They Be a Game Changer for Those of Us with ADHD?

• Jami Shapiro • Episode 87

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In this episode of Grandma Has ADHD, Jami Shapiro welcomes back ADHD coach and Attention Talk Radio founder Jeff Copper for a fascinating conversation about motivation, executive function, and a concept that could completely change the way we support people with ADHD: adaptive accommodations.

For years, many people with ADHD have been told they’re lazy, unmotivated, or just need to try harder. But Jeff challenges that narrative entirely. Instead, he explains how ADHD is an executive functioning impairment, and why people with ADHD are often working harder, not less.

Together, Jami and Jeff explore why traditional accommodations like “more time” often miss the mark, and why support systems that reduce cognitive strain, like verbal processing, cueing, and collaborative problem-solving, may be far more effective.


What You’ll Learn

  • Why ADHD is not a motivation problem
  • How executive function impacts problem-solving and task completion
  • The difference between traditional accommodations and adaptive accommodations
  • What direct oral conversation has to do with executive functioning
  • Why people with ADHD often need external processing and validation
  • How adaptive accommodations can reduce emotional and cognitive overload


Why This Matters

This episode reframes ADHD through the lens of impairment and support, not character flaws.

Understanding adaptive accommodations can help reduce shame, increase self-awareness, and create systems that actually work with the ADHD brain instead of against it.


About the Guest

Jeff Copper, MBA, PCC, PCAC, CPCC, ACG is the founder of DIG Coaching Practice and host of Attention Talk Radio. Diagnosed with dyslexia and learning disabilities, Jeff has spent decades helping people understand ADHD through the lens of executive functioning, self-awareness, and practical adaptation. He is known for his innovative work in ADHD coaching and cognitive ergonomics.


About the Host

Jami Shapiro is an ADHD coach, speaker, and founder of Silver Linings Transitions. Through her podcast Grandma Has ADHD, she brings awareness to ADHD in older adults, especially women, helping listeners better understand their brains and navigate life with more clarity and compassion.


Resources


Links & Support

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Grandma Has ADHD! We hope Jami's journey and insights into ADHD shed light on the unique challenges faced by older adults. Stay tuned for more episodes where we’ll explore helpful resources, share personal stories, and provide guidance for those navigating ADHD. Don’t forget to subscribe and share this podcast with friends who might benefit. Remember, Make the rest of your life the best of your life.

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Hi, I'm Jami Shapiro, and welcome to Grandma Has ADHD. I'm a certified senior move manager and owner of Silver Linings Transitions, where I help people navigate life's big transitions. But here's the thing, I spent years helping families move through change while completely missing the pattern that was running through my own life.

I'm the daughter of two ADHD parents, the mother of three ADHD children, and yep, I have ADHD too. For years, I didn't have the language or understanding for what that meant. But becoming an ADHD coach and specialist, that's been absolutely game-changing, not just for how I work with my clients, but for how I relate to my family and honestly, for how I understand myself.

I even wrote a book about it called This Explains So Much. This podcast is for all of us who are discovering ADHD later in life. Each week, I bring you conversations with industry experts and people sharing their own ADHD journeys, real stories, real strategies, and often a little too much information. If you're loving what you're hearing, please share this podcast, leave us a review, and find me at jamishapiro.me.

That's J-A-M-I-S-H-A-P-I-R-O.me. Whether you're over 50 and just getting diagnosed or you're recognizing patterns you've lived with your whole life, this is your space to navigate ADHD with others who get it. So grab your coffee and get comfortable, and let's dive in

Hey, here's a quick heads-up before we dive in. You may hear me mention the Sparkler Society in this episode. Talking about it, it's happening right now. And here's the truth: my ADHD brain got so excited about this community that I may have jumped a little bit enthusiastically, a lot enthusiastically, before everything was actually ready.

Classic ADHD move, right? We know what that's like. So here's what's actually happening. We've hit pause to make sure the Sparkler Society launches the right way, because this is going to change lives, and I want it to be everything you deserve from day one. We're officially launching in July of 2026, and here's what you can look forward to: live group sessions every week, including support around decluttering and downsizing, body doubling, and ADHD group coaching.

We are also addressing some of the big challenges of ADHD: worrying, overspending, and starting crafts only to lose steam. Membership in the Sparkler Society is going to save you from paying the ADHD tax. We're talking real dollars back in your pocket. And most importantly, we are building a community of women who want to get their shit together, together.

Here's the exciting part. We're starting a wait list right now at jamishapiro.me. That's J-A-M-I-S-H-A-P-I-R-O.me. And the VIPs who join early will get free access to shape the community before we officially launch in July. You'll help us build this thing together. So if you hear me talking about the Sparkler Society like it's happening tomorrow, just know it's coming in July, and it's going to be worth the wait.

Let's get to today's episode

Welcome back to the Grandma Has ADHD podcast. This is gonna be the third time that I have ADHD coach Jeff Copper, and I'm also welcoming all of you who are listening. And let me just say this, I don't just randomly have somebody back, but Jeff is, he is totally an innovator in the ADHD space.

And every time I get to interview you, I learn even more, and you were really excited to share another innovation that you've come up with. And I learned so much from the last one, that when you ask, it's like when EF Hutton talks, you listen. Anyway, for those of you who don't know who Jeff is, I'm going to just read a little bit from his bio.

Jeff is the founder of DIG Coaching Practice and the brilliant mind behind Attention Talk Radio, and here is what I love about Jeff's journey. He's been navigating neurodivergence since childhood, diagnosed with dyslexia and a learning disability, and has spent his entire life figuring out how to do things differently, not the right way, but his way.

This is someone who competed in swimming nationally and internationally, got into college on an athletic scholarship, crushed it in corporate sales, leading his division multiple times, and then went back to get his MBA, graduating with a 3.85 GPA in finance. But here is the thing that makes Jeff's story so powerful.

He spent years being told to just follow the steps, fit into the box, do it this way, and it never worked. Does that sound familiar? 

Oh, 

yeah. So Jeff did what we neurodivergent folks do best. He threw out the one-size-fits-all solutions and created his own path. When everyone told him to write a book or start a blog to build his coaching practice, he said, "Nope, I hate writing," and launched Attention Talk Radio instead, which has far surpassed what his peers accomplished with their books and blogs.

Today, Jeff is a trained and credentialed ADHD and life coach trainer, and speaker who specializes in helping people with attention challenges, ADHD, dyslexia, and learning disabilities. But what really sets him apart is his philosophy. He coaches you, not your label. He focuses on understanding your natural processes and showing you how your way works, then uses that to help you achieve your goals.

So with all of that said, Jeff Copper, welcome back. Welcome to the Grandma Has ADHD podcast. And I do want to say, by the way, I was listening to someone else's podcast. I mention you in my book and in my podcast and you are mentioned pretty frequently. So you really are a pioneer and an in- innovator- Thank you

even among those of us who are, building our own thought practices around ADHD. 

Well, I, back at you the space that you're building out, like when we first talked, I'm like, thank God we finally got somebody out there educating people. And so I really consider you to be kind of a pioneer in what you're doing, and I really want to applaud you for what you're bringing to the ADHD community because the space that you're in has been well overlooked for a very long period of time.

And I think you're bringing a lot of validation and realization, a lot of learning, sometimes a lot of empathy for people. Like, oh my God, if I had only known that a long time ago, my life would've been different. And so, I just... You're a community asset, and I totally respect back what you're doing. So just need to make sure we're clear on that.

Also, further, I'm also really grateful you're allowing me to come on and ta- talk about something today that's very different and new, and a lot of thought leaders try to s- well, not thought leaders. Non-thought leaders stick to what everybody knows. And to have me on today to be able to talk about something in a different way I'm just grateful for the opportunity to share what I hope is kind of some exciting information.

Well, I, like I said, first of all, you just fed into my recognition euphoria. for those of you who, who are listening, and especially remember, Jeff, that a lot of people who are coming to my podcast- are very new to the ADHD conversation. 

Yep. 

And so when you have ADHD it's very common, and we didn't realize this was such a big part, is that we struggle with rejection sensitivity, or some people refer to it as rejection sensitive dysphoria, where, re- rejection for us is compounded.

 we feel it more intensely. We perceive rejection, more than another person would. And I like to give this example, and I've learned that this tends to be very common in ADHD, where, if my boss would've called me on the phone to say, "I need to talk to you," I immediately would've been rolling through the what did I do wrong?

What's he gonna say? Never did I say, "Oh, he's gonna call me into his office to give me praise or give me a raise." It was, I always went to the negative. 

Yep. 

And I've learned actually that we, because of that, when we do get recognition, it- we also feel that more intensely. So I just wanted to educate and also acknowledge you.

But the thing that stuck with me from our last inter- we've ... This is our third. Yeah. The thing that I really liked is when you described why older adults might ch- be challenged more than someone else with ADHD, because we need to be able to verbally process our day and talk through- 

Yes

things, and that when we are more isolated or we're not in a work environment, or maybe we don't have, people living in our house we lose that, that other person. Yes. So that- 100% ... absolutely stuck with me. But so of course when you said, "Jamie, I've got something new," I'm like, "Well, I've gotta say yes to Jeff."

Not to mention, Jeff, that when you first met me at my very first international ADHD conference, you took me under my wing, your wing, not mine, and introduced me to other people that you felt I needed to meet. And so you're pretty much always gonna have the hot button to the podcast. 

 I appreciate that, and people are somet- territorial, but, like, when you came in, and I've done this with a couple other people before, a rising tide lifts all boats.

And it was e- it was a joy and a pleasure just to go do that. And to look at you now, you've done so much since then. I'm proud of the opportunity to help kickstart you, but you would've gotten there without me somehow. 

Well, thank you, but it doesn't matter, because you're right.

Rising tides do lift all boats. Yep. And the more people who become aware of ADHD, the less stigma there is gonna be, and the more accommodations we're gonna get. And I still cannot stand when people ask me, "Why does it matter?" I'm still getting that. And, it's

So I, th- this is my part of saying it matters in so many ways. Even, every time I do a podcast interview, I learn something else. It's like, Yep ... I finished coaching, but now I still get to keep learning. And e- and we're constantly innovating, which is amazing. Yes. So anyway. 100%.

All right. So now tell me, what do you have for me? What do you have for us? 

I wanna talk to you about motivation. Okay. To be honest with you, it's a topic that I d- have always dealt with kind of- From the sidelines. And the reason I did that is when you start talking about motivation, the topic is actually incredibly emotional.

People look at motivation often very subjectively with emotions. And the way I illustrate this is e- any time somebody says they're not motivated or they're lazy, I say that is a inaccurate observation. Because everything you've ever done in your entire life, you did it because that's what you were motivated to do, and everything you haven't done, you didn't do it 'cause you were actually motivated to do something else.

And so what I like to do is be pragmatic. if you're not doing something and you're calling yourself unmotivated, you're actually shaming yourself. You're not doing anything to solve the problem. But if you sit there and say, "You know, I'm just sitting here on my couch. I think I should be doing my taxes," and go, "Well, I'm sitting on my couch 'cause that's what I'm motivated to do," we're being objective.

Now, you might need to do your taxes, and you say, "Well, what's the problem?" We addressed that a lot in our last podcast, is you're having a problem solving mind, and I'll get back to that. But when you sit there and say, "I'm actually motivated to sit here on the couch and not do that," you're meeting fact with fact, and then you're confronted with the details to actually resolve that problem.

And so I haven't really talked a lot about it because people, they get all emotional about motivation. But I'm coming now because I've looked at motivation through the lens of Dr. Russell Barkley's model on executive function, and I've taken his theory and I've extended it to motivation, and what I found is incrediblyexciting.

So are you okay if I walk through this a little bit? 

Please, because I'll be honest with you, you sent me your one sheet- 

Yep ... 

and my eyes glazed over, and I, I know that I don't process that way. So yes, please. 

That, that's totally fine. So we think of motivation as just this thing.

 I, the way I look at motivation is you're motivated, and motivation actually comes from emotion. But Dr. Barkley talks about executive function. Think of your brain as a two-level system. You have your automatic brain, which is your more primitive brain, and you have your executive functioning brain.

Your executive functioning brain is very effortful. It's gotta expend a lot of energy to step in and kinda override the automatic, to beat it down, if you will, right? And so I began to think about motivation now differently from what... What if we thought about it as motivation being a two-level or two-force system?

You have your primitive brain that's motivated by emotions, which is basically urges, the desire to seek pleasure or to escape pain. It's automatic. It's very primitive. It's dopamine based and emotion based, right? But if we have an executive functioning brain, and it too is motivated by emotion- This is important, okay?

The emotional desire to accomplish, right? Jami, you've had the emotional desire to accomplish to get the word out, right? This... That's what this podcast is all about. 

But if we look at it as a two-force system, think of it like this. In a neurotypical brain, you have two forces that have... They're equilibrium.

They're kinda like they're there, right? They're fighting for the dominance on who wins, but there's a balance between the force. Make some sense? 

But if you take a look at the ADHD brain and you say executive functioning is actually impaired, and impairment is a reduction of efficiency.

Wow, that just changes the game here. So before I get into the impairment part, I like to describe the executive functioning brain's desire for achievement is effortful, okay? It requires some extension effort. And the way I describe it is, personally, I was a internationally ranked swimmer at one time.

I used to swim for four hours a day. 

 

And I had the emotional, drive to... I wanted to accomplish. I wanted to swim fast. when I would go to the pool, I would stand over its water's edge, and the s- the water temperature's 79 degrees. Diving in is not comfortable. It's a shock, right? And so I go there, and o- often I'm sitting there, and I think a lot of people can relate to this.

There's a pool and it's kinda cold, and you're like, you're kinda swinging, like, "Okay, jump." Like, you're having this narrative- to get you to jump into the pool because of that discomfort. That's a metaphor. 

Executive function's like that. And there's been times where I drove 30 minutes, I got to a pool, put my suit on, I'm standing over the water's edge, and I turned around and went home.

 It was too uncomfortable for me that day to do it. So I- ... I put it into this context. Both forces are emotional. One is based on the urges. It feels good right now. Executive function is the emotional desire to achieve, but there's a level of discomfort that you've got to endure to get to the comfort, right?

Now, Dr. Barkley talks about ADHD being an executive functioning impairment, and executive function as a reduction of efficiency or capacity. As an aside, executive functions, as he defined, is a collection of mind tools that we use to solve problems. And in our last conversation, we talked about direct oral conversations, which I'll come back to.

People with ADHD, executive functions are not used to walk to eat, to sleep, to worry, to... for opinions. It's solely there to solve problems. So- Most people don't really think of executive functions as an impairment. But if we put it into that context and I sit there and say, "Imagine hypothetically," this is just because the math works.

If the ADHD executive functions are impaired by 50%, that means they're 50% less efficient. 

So let's look at a situation. If a neurotypical has got to expend one unit of effort, which is motivation, and they get one unit of output. Okay, one level of motivation, one unit, and I get one output. A person with ADHD, if they expended the same amount of effort, the same amount of motivation, they're only gonna get half, half the output.

Well, wait a second. In order to get the same output, they're gonna have to expend twice the motivation, twice the effort. Let's think about this. That's harder. That extra effort, there's actually an emotional cost associated with that. That emotional cost actually swings the f- the fight between these two brains, the forces to the more automatic brain.

Right? So the idea here is we look at it as a two-force system. You have two forces that are competing. In the neurotypical, there's an equilibrium, but when you have ADHD and you have the impairment, you have to make up for that impairment with extra effort, and that extra effort is a cost that swings things in favor of the automatic brain.

Now, let's go back to my swimming analogy. Imagine, if you will, the water temperature wasn't 79 degrees for me. Let's say it was 59 degrees. Wow, that's a lot more uncomfortable than 79 degrees. That's a bigger issue. I'm more opt to walk away from the pool or never even try to get in at all. 

So if we begin to look at this, and the reason I wanted to come on and talk about this changes the way we look at motivation. People with ADHD, it's not that they're not motivated. If they do something that's comparable to a neurotypical, we can say they had twice the motivation or more motivation, if you will, to do the same task.

So we go from looking at it in a small way, they're unmotivated, to, oh my God, we have respect that they're very motivated because they're having to make up for this difference. 

Now, I come from a very engineering mindset, and so the issue is how do you bring equilibrium into these two forces?

 willpower is one of them, we think. But if we think about that's using a lot of emotional energy to get more emotion to sit in that discomfort. You're hyping yourself up. It's really not a practical solution. It might happen every once in a while, but it's ... besides, it doesn't bring equilibrium.

It actually increases the disequilibrium. All right. The next one would be rewards All right. A reward, all you're doing is using the reward to amp up your emotions to sit in the discomfort. It doesn't really bring equilibrium. Recently, Jamie, I was up in Washington, DC, 'cause I'm an, a steering committee of some, lobbyists that are trying to shape public policy on Capitol Hill with regard to ADHD, and I was at the Capitol.

And I was sitting there and I was looking at the steps going up on the Capitol, and I imagined somebody being at the bottom that didn't have any legs or a wheelchair or a ramp. And I might give them a reward if they crawl their way up on the first step, a reward to go up to the second step. I keep rewarding them incrementally.

Now, I'm having to give them that reward because this is hard for them because of their impairment. They're struggling, and they're struggling, and I might get a rewards and I get them to the top. Okay, that's great. But the next time they have to go up, probably gonna need a higher level of reward. They did it once, but this is really effortful.

 So if we think about things in terms of amping up the rewards, there's a diminishing return. At some level rewards tend to wear out. 

Because it's... Again, we're just trying to give you a reward to amp up your emotions to sit in that discomfort. So this begins to explain why rewards work, kinda.

They wear out after a while. 

 

Okay. What's our next option? Accommodations. All right, my eyesight's impaired. I wear glass as accommodations. But our current kind of mindset when it comes to accommodations, and I'm gonna pick on this, it's... One of the big ones is more time. Okay. More time. What does that mean?

 it doesn't mitigate the impairment. We're just giving you longer to suffer. 

I'm thinking back to my test-taking days. 

Yeah. 

Okay. 

You get to suffer longer. 

 

That doesn't solve the pro- That doesn't provide any relief. It just gives you longer to suffer. And then let's think about this.

If, let's say in a workplace, it's an eight-hour workday, but we're gonna give you 10 hours to do eight hours of work. We're giving you longer to suffer. But day in and day out, that goes into a, like a chronic pain over a long-term period of time. That's what creates burnout. So it's not really providing relief to the impairment.

Again, we're just giving you more time to suffer. 

There's another solution here, what we call adaptive accommodations. Adaptive accommodations. These are accommodations that provide what I call systemic relief. It's not about suffering longer. It's actually mitigating the impairment. If you don't have the legs, give yourself a wheelchair.

If you have a impaired eyesight, you wear glasses. If you're blind, you have braille, et cetera. These are all... They provide relief systems. And our last conversation, our last- podcast with you we talked about the intangible axiom, the idea that language was derived originally for the sole reason, and that was to solve shared problems, and that we still use it today.

It's the universal accommodation. And if ADHD's a problem-solving impairment with executive functions, we were making a case last time that people with ADHD... Neurotypicals have direct oral conversations to solve problems, so do people with ADHD. They just need more of them to resolve the impairment.

 So when we come over to the motivation side, an adaptive accommodation would be provide direct oral conversations to provide relief. It makes it easier for them to problem solve. And so by doing that, we can bring equilibrium to these two forces. And I wanted to come on this show and others to say we're ch- I'm changing the narrative that we look at motivation in the context of Dr.

Barkley's model by looking at two, four system, and it's starting to reveal all kinds of anomalies that the current can't. And so I loved how you enjoyed our last conversation about direct oral conversation, which by the way, you have problems in all kinds of domains of your life, school, work psychological, et cetera.

When you think about what's the go-to accommodation? If you're having a hard time in school, you go talk to the teacher, you go talk to a tutor, special ed. At work you talk to your boss, a peer. Psychologically you talk to a therapist or you go talk to a coach. If you look at it, it's everywhere. It's all hidden in plain sight.

 And 

so what I'm just trying to say is we're making a case to change the narrative that we should be providing these types of accommodations for people with ADHD to adapt it so that they don't have to work so hard. 

And I really wanted to bring this out to change it. And so for the people that are out there that are older, I think this really can hit you hard when you're dealing with technology these days because technology is changing all the time.

It's very confusing. God love you if you could just get on the phone with somebody who knew what they were doing, they can solve your problem in minutes. But a lot of times we don't. You're, you have all kinds of times but you're suffering because you don't really understand what's going on.

And I'm trying to change the narrative and spread the word about this new way of looking at it so that people look at it. When you look at it, it just makes a lot of sense. So I've been going on and on for a really long time with a lot of stuff that's here because we're... I'm changing people's conceptual understanding.

But let's take a break for a second, deep breath, and see if... what kind of questions you got. 

Yeah. I don't feel like you've gotten... taken me to the punchline of what is that what is that accommodation gonna be? Like, how are we going to c- how are we gonna do... I'm not with you.

So I need you to- I- I need you to use a story. 

So what I'm making a case for is- Because I like- ... i- is right now if you at work or at school and you say, "I need somebody to talk through a problem with."

It's not the type of accommodation that's considered an accommodation, and it wouldn't be afforded to you.

So what you're basically saying is that what we... rather than giving somebody time, what we really need to do is give them the accommodation of having that person to process. 

Having somebody to talk out loud to. I'm not talking to have somebody do it for you. 

No, no, no. I understood you. It's ha- I understood 

you.

Yep, it's having somebody to talk to, or even cuing. Cuing is where somebody's asking you, "Hey, Jami, what do you gotta do today? How are you gonna get it all done? What order will you get in that? What will get in your way? What challenges could be faced?" Notice that all I'm doing asking questions. 

When I'm doing that, I'm actually helping you think about things in a way to work through and actually plan your day. 

 

Now, a lot of the adaptive accommodations I'm arguing for, they're intangible. It's often somebody asking you questions or you just saying, "Hey, I was thinking about this, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

Does this make sense?" And getting the validation, "Yes, that does make some sense." That can be very reassuring for somebody with ADHD, like they're stuck in their head. So these are the types of things that we can begin to go to. And I'm all about trying to, A, helping everybody understand there's an impairment.

Talk about these adaptive accommodations. They are more intangible than what we're noting. But like in our last discussion about the direct oral conversation, if you look around, it's everywhere, and it works. I'm just trying to create a case for people like, yeah, it's legitimate to go do that.

I'm giving you permission. Let's make that happen. In fact, why don't we build it into your world so there's people for you to go to help you solve those problems. Does that help? I... 

Yes, that helps. In fact yes, it absolutely helps. So I wanna go back to something that you shared, which I know wasn't where you wanted to take the conversation but, you said you're out there right now advocating for, regulations and policies for those of us with ADHD.

W- I almost hate to ask 'cause it might be too big of a conversation, but, A, where are we and, B, what are the chances that something which is as simple as having there be someone that we can process with... You know what? I, I wanna tell you one of the things that I've thought before is, I- when you have late payments, right?

I wish there could be a, an accommodation for somebody with ADHD to be like, "Oh, I didn't see this bill. I have ADHD," and they get maybe more grace. I know that wasn't what you were looking for. Yep. but it's like I wish that we could have- life accommodations for- 

Well, i- in this scenario, believe it or not, sometimes paying bills sometimes is a little bit more problem-solving where you're talking about where you're moving money around in order to do that.

But having somebody to talk through that would put you in a situation where you don't necessarily have the late payments. That's number one. That's true. That's right. If you had- So we're moving this more to the front of it than to the back of it. Where we are right now is with Donald Trump's MAHA report, Make American Healthy Again.

They're relooking at everything right now, and they're throwing the world upside down on its head. They redra- retracted a bunch of stuff. They're bringing some stuff back. But there's a big move about a lot of things that are probably good, but there's a lot of debate because there's a lot of confusion.

There's a lot of underdiagnosis of ADHD, and there's a lot of overdiagnosis. There's a lot of prescriptions that are being made to people that shouldn't be made, and there's a bunch of people that should get prescriptions that are not. So the focus right now really is to bring some equilibrium to that particular area.

What they're... They're not necessarily looking at the things that I'm talking about 'cause they're working our way backwards. But I've developed this program called Cognitive Ergonomics From the Inside Out, which is a new field of engineering. These are a lot of big words, everybody. The bottom line, it's a new way of looking at ADHD from an engineering perspective.

And what I'm finding is the more people that I'm going out there and educating on this that are actually, "Oh my God, this really makes a lot of sense," I'm trying to get a grassroots effort to walk in and say, "Listen, this is all working. It's in plain sight. Hey, I've got ADHD. I've got this impairment.

Nobody's advocating for me for an impairment. All they're doing is giving m- more time to suffer and train." Or at least help the people that are out there who get what I'm doing go around and say, "Oh, wow." Like some people with ADHD, they talk out loud. We call them verbal processors. They've been doing it their entire life.

Nobody taught them how to do it. They do it instinctively. If this would validate that person, "Oh my God, that's what I am, and it works," and give them permission to go to people say, "Can I talk out loud and do that?" I can change the narrative of the individuals and then the larger narrative in order to work our way back up.

 in fact, I'm trying to get this, what I'm doing out to teachers, disability specialists so that they're aware of it. So imagine that you're a teacher in a class and you got some people with ADHD that are on IEP. A- and the teachers are trying to figure out what works, too. If you have, "Hey, Johnny, come here.

Just tell me what you think that you're going to do," and it works, I'm trying to help them understand how they can be more effective in the class and become an advocate at the same time. So there's a lot going on in that answer. But we're working diligently to try to make sure that people are advocating for people with ADHD.

I'm just coming in and saying, "Medications help you sit in discomfort longer." That's really all they do. If you have an impairment- Problem-solving is more difficult, it's more uncomfortable. Like the dip, temperature of water, 59 degrees is more uncomfortable. If I was able to take a pill and I can withstand that discomfort longer effectively, that's what it does.

And I'm just saying let's just get rid of all the discomfort. Let's actually provide accommodations. It's a new way of looking at ADHD and a new approach. Which again, is why I said at the beginning I'm grateful, you're giving me the opportunity to share this concept with people. Some people might go, "Ah, this, that's a bunch of hooey."

Where other people might go, "Wow, that really ha- ma- makes a lot of sense." I feel like if I'm saying that there's a way of looking at this, I expect people to question me and confront me, and I, z- it's my responsibility to explain to them, or educate them why, what's going on. But I get real excited at this concept because it changes it just from you're not doing what we need to do, you must be lazy, to, oh, you're more motivated to do that because of the impairment.

It's a lot harder for you to do that. We should really focus on making problem-solving easier for you. And then you might end up going to do it. And at the end of the day, it can be, A, really help with the emotional self-esteem of a lot of people that are out there. That's number one. Two, they're more productive for themselves and society.

So it's, it's something I'm excited about, and I'm excited about the opportunity to share this with other people to get a buzz going. 

I love it. Okay, we're gonna take a pause for a minute. I'm gonna take a sip of water and then we're gonna wrap up the conversation. So sh- and, by the way, if you are listening to this podcast...

 actually, you are listening to this podcast, and, I would appreciate it if you would share what you're hearing with your friends and your family or anybody that would benefit from this. and to Jeff's point, the only way that we're going to destigmatize ADHD and raise awareness is if we let other people know that, that it exists and what...

and I love this accommodation. I'm trying... I, now I'm blanking on the word that you just called it, something accommodation. 

Adaptive. 

Adaptive. thank you. A- adaptive accommodation. So anyway, we're gonna take a pause. We're gonna come right back 

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Hi, I'm Jami Shapiro. I am an ADHD coach and the founder of Silver Linings Transitions, where we do home organizing and move management. And, you know, I did not know that I had ADHD for years, and I remember personally hiring an organizing company to come in and help me because I could just never get it together.

And it really wasn't until I understood ADHD and its impact that I realized why. And so I wrote a book, This Explains So Much: Understanding Undiagnosed ADHD, because I just feel like there's so many answers that people don't even know that they're looking for, especially generations of women who grew up thinking that ADHD was just for the hyperactive little boy.

It turns out it's not only a body that can be hyperactive, but it can be a mind that's hyperactive. So you can have a wonderful day, and you can have something wonderful happen, and then that one negative thing that happens is gonna be the thing that takes you into that spiral, and it's gonna be keeping you up at night, and you're gonna be ruminating on it.

And I think that, you know, we as women carry so much shame and so much how it's supposed to be. "I'm supposed to have it together." And I remember that was the case for me. I, I remember, "How is it that all of these women have so much consistency, and their kids get the sticker charts, and everything seems to run well, and I'm the one that's missing parent-teacher conferences, and my house, you know, is always in chaos?"

And, and then again, that negative self-talk. So I-- my mission is really to educate people who have no idea that ADHD has the impact that it does, and it's to connect you to other people who get it and who will make you feel that you aren't alone, you're not crazy, you're not lazy, you're not stupid, you're not too much.

You just have a brain that was wired differently. And I can't wait for you to join me in the community that I'm building, the workshops that I'm creating, the book club that I'm hosting, because I know that I am going to make a profound difference in your life.

 

So we are back with Jeff Copper and adaptive accommodations.

I love it. I suspect that this is not going to be our final interview because- ... I, you're just continuously adapting. And, that is actually one of the traits of ADHD that I love is this ability to make connections with things or to see something- Yep ... that doesn't exist. And I actually heard, I don't know if I heard a podcast interview or something where they were saying, and I do this and didn't know it was an ADHD thing, I'll meet people, completely different context, and I'm like, "Oh, I need to put those two together."

Where other people, and I matchmake, and that- yep ... so I love the way that our brains think. And w- another, so it's interesting, and I know you'll confirm this, with ADHD, like I will meet somebody, I will not remember their name, but I will remember the conversation that we have, little details.

So I remember, our first interview when you had shared that you were dyslexic and that- Yep ... that actually was much harder for you th- than discovering the ADHD, and yet you were still able to finish school. and I think, was it that your parents said, "Put him in something w- where he will succeed"?

Because- Yes ... yeah. Okay, see. And I even remember like the hallway where I bumped into you. it's so interesting and, Dr., Kathleen Nadeau, who was my very first guest on the, on this podcast, way before I knew what I knew now, describes it as a Swiss cheese memory. And it's such- ... a good way to describe it because we have these just little holes.

And so anyway, anything else that you want to add to this conversation, um, before we, we close? and keeping in mind, Jeff, that my audience are really people who are, just discovering ADHD, midlife and- Yes ... and what do I do from here? Where do I go? 

So the first thing I want to sit there and say, if you're just discovering it's here, it's very emotional, when you start to find out, particularly if you're finding out older point in time of life.

The message that I would like you to take away, if nothing more, is that the struggles that you have faced haven't been lack of character or anything, it's just because of this particular impairment, and you've been highly motivated most of your life. When strategy don't work it doesn't have anything to do with motivation, it's the impairment.

B- which by the way, strategies, you have to use executive functions to, to f- to, to execute them. I'm hoping this kind of brings a little bit of like validation to you that you're highly motivated, it's just harder for you. That's the first thing. Second thing, as I'm... the thing that I really like to emphasize is that I talk about this as a metaphor.

My eyesight is impaired. 

I can sit and try to read all day. I can squint and focus, but I can't, I can't really read it. But if I use these glasses- This is an adaptive accommodation ... and what it does is it mitigates the dis- the condition, the impairment so I can function. 

People with ADHD, they struggle with problem-solving.

 my glasses impaired, executive function's impaired. My glasses are an adaptive accommodation. Having a direct oral conversation with somebody that's goal-directed to try to solve a problem is an a- adaptive accommodations, right? One's tangible. My glasses are physically tangible. The direct oral conversation is not tangible.

It is intangible, but both of them help me focus. 

ADHD looks like a focus problem, and it is, but the underlying issue is when you got a problem solving in mind, if you do it out of mind, it works. And Jamie, I've coached a lot of people that, they ended up later in life where they were, had kids and they were married and they were getting all kinds of things done, and now seemingly their ADHD has gotten worse, and I'm saying, "It hasn't gotten any worse.

It's just you had people in your world and you were having direct oral conversations, solving problems, and you didn't even know that you were doing it." And so that's the difference. And so if you can e- embrace this, get out in the community, have these kind of conversations. we're in a world right now where we don't think about it, but we're humans.

Get out there, do that. I think that you really can help. Now, I'm not saying have direct oral conversations that, with people that are incredibly judgmental. We don't need people to solve your problems. You just need the space to work with. So what I really hope, and to deliver, is that there's a lot of hope.

You can do a lot right now, with what you have left in your life if you can embrace this and apply it, and y- the entire life you've been far more motivated, it's just nobody was acknowledging the impairment. So I hope that provides some validation. I'd also like to ask people if you're concerned or whatever you got questions, let me know.

I- I'm, I'm open to critics of what I'm dis- talking about. I have a right to explain it. As long as they do it with an open mind and tastefully I'm here. You can disagree with me or I have the right to, explain even more to people so they understand it, because what I'm describing is very different from the way we've looked at it.

 Jamie, in my world, when I look through this lens, what didn't make any sense all of a sudden makes all kinds of sense. Yeah. And I get excited about it. And before we close this out, when you... I said this at the beginning. When you reach out to people and you wanna talk about something that's l- relatively new, the more conservative people just stick to the same old, same old, what they know.

And we didn't really talk a lot about this, and you had me on for to give me this opportunity, and I just wanna say, y- your, that just demonstrates what a thought leader that you are. You don't even have to agree with me or whatever, but you're giving me the opportunity to do that, and that's what our community needs.

And so thank you again for doing what you do. 

Oh, I appreciate it. And, yeah, I think any tool, and I love this saying, or I don't love it, but it is what it is. You meet one person with ADHD, and you meet one person with ADHD- Yes ... and what works, I don't verbally process.

 I don't talk to outside. But, Yep ... I also need to see something and do something. And we all learn differently. We all have different strengths. so I think that's really important. So I am open to any and all conversations that- Yep ... are going to make life, as I say, make the rest of your life the best of your life, which is how I end- Absolutely

the podcast. But one other thing that I want to share that I have said, I said it in my book and I'll say it occasionally, when you talk about, coming to, the second part of your life and realizing that this whole time you had ADHD, I compare it to, Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire, where they say that she did everything that, that Ginger Rogers did everything that Fred Astaire did, only she had to do it backwards and in high heels.

That is ADHD. we're having- Yeah ... to get through the same life, and rather than beating ourselves up for all of the things we couldn't do or why- how our brains work, to, be proud of the fact that you, w- we have cobbled it together. Yep. And we have come up with those systems.

And I love the MacGyver analogy. people with ADHD, we're, we MacGyver. In fact, prior to getting on this podcast, Jeff, we could not get our sound together, and we just- Yeah ... picked it up and moved over, and it was like, okay, there we are, you know? And- 

Yep ... 

so that adaptability, Yeah

and the resilience. And I think, I've said this before, too, that, I think that we are so adaptable and resilient because I will struggle with a decision, right? And then so I'll finally just make the decision, 'cause I don't want to have the decision hanging over my head. And then- Uh-huh

I don't beat myself up over the decision anymore because, or the mistake that I've made, because I would just spend my entire life beating myself up. and so it's just easier, and also we don't remember anyway. We just move on to the next thing. So anyway, I- Appreciate it ... I appreciate all that you've contributed.

And like I said, I am certain that this will not be our last podcast interview. And- Absolutely ... I would love to be on Attention Talk Radio again, because we are introducing the Sparkler Society. So I'll have to tell you what that is really quickly, and that is gonna be a community for women midlife and, and older who are discovering ADHD, and we are building a community to give ourselves tools to navigate life.

I say, getting your shit together. And like just this weekend, I paid the ADHD task, ta- tax in a very hefty way because I didn't stop and process something that I was doing. And so as a result of that, I came up with pause, process, press. So the next time I go to buy an airline ticket for the wrong date, and, you show up at the airport and oops.

Yep. And you're now scrambling because, Y- anyway, so pause, and then process. Before I hit the press button, okay- Yep ... the calendar. Is this really the right date? and just really pause it, and then press that button. So ADHD and the Sparkler Society is really all about doing it together and discovering it together.

So I hope that you will have me on. We're launching in July. 

I, the, women and ADHD is so much, it's complex. The hormonal issues itself make it more difficult, particularly age and life, and the fact that you're doing this is spectacular, so I'd be happy to have you come on and talk about it.

Because the women have been dealt with in, youth and in midlife and stuff like that, but this particular age, it's a huge deal, so I'd love to do that. 

I appreciate that. I'm 

glad you are. Right? I 

appreciate that. Yeah, I appreciate it. thank you again, Jeff. And like I said, I really am committed to people understanding the impact of ADHD because it really does make a difference.

Am I right, Jeff?

Absolutely. 

100% and it never is too late to make the rest of your life the best of your life. Thanks for listening.

 

The opinions expressed on Grandma Has ADHD podcast are those of our guests and hosts and are intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. This podcast does not provide medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. The content discussed in this episode is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Jami Shapiro

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