Q1: When you dictate that post-its go left to right, not top to bottom

In this episode of the Business Lifejacket Podcast, we dive into the complex world of leadership and management with our guest, Richard McGarvey. With a successful career in financial services and leadership development, Richard now brings his expertise to consulting at the award-winning Anderton Centre.

We explore Richard’s journey from his early days in finance to discovering his passion for leadership development. He shares candid insights on the challenges of leading people, the value of emotional intelligence versus strategic vision, and the biggest myths about managing teams.

Get ready for stories of tough decisions, team dynamics, and practical advice, including Richard's “three golden rules” for leadership and tips on building strong, collaborative teams—even in hybrid or remote environments.

Plus, host David Germain shares a hilariously cautionary tale about the perils of micromanagement in his Dave’s Story Time segment, featuring “Karen Points,” sticky note lectures, and a team-building exercise gone awry. It’s a lesson in what not to do as a leader.

Whether you’re new to leadership or a seasoned pro, this episode offers plenty of laughs, lessons, and actionable takeaways to help you steer your team toward success.

Tune in now, and don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with fellow business navigators!

Contact Richard via the below links:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-mcgarvey-078a68190/

richard.mcgarvey@advice4business.co.uk 

https://www.boardsmart.co.uk/

If you enjoyed today’s episode, don’t forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with others who might need a little extra support in their business journey.

Until next time, keep learning, laughing, and making waves!

Credits:
Host: David Germain
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dcgermain/
david.germain@andertoncentre.co.uk

Produced by: OneZeroCreative
www.OneZeroCreative.co.uk

Sponsored by The Anderton Centre
www.andertoncentre.co.uk
New Road, Anderton, Chorley, Lancashire, PR6 9HG reception@andertoncentre.co.uk 01257 484220 www.andertoncentre.co.uk

Learn more about the Anderton Centre by visiting the website, or contact David Germain for a personal tour.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to the Business Life Jacket Podcast. The podcast that doesn't take itself too seriously and shoehorns as many nautical puns into the world of business. The Business Life Jacket Podcast is sponsored by the Anderton Centre and an award-winning education, training and conference venue in the Northwest between Bolton and Chorley. The views and opinions discussed on the Business Life Jacket Podcast are based on personal experience of the individuals evolved and are not intended to be taken as official business advice or we seek professional guidance when making decisions for your business. Now let's dive in. Today we're joined by Richard McGarvey alongside a successful career and financial services and leadership development now finds himself consulting for the Anderton Centre. Always nice to see you and welcome back to the Anderton Centre.

Thank you. Always. Good to be here.

So, really interested. Richard, take us back. Where does things start for you and how did you find yourself in financial services?

Okay. And I was, it was about 1989. I was working in a family business totally unrelated to financial services. The environment I was in when the family business probably wasn't going to achieve help me achieve my goals in life. So, I made a conscious decision to leave the family business and I looked at various things that I could do. One of the things I was particularly good at was, was obviously persuading people to buy things, otherwise known as selling. and I looked around and financial services seemed like a good place to be at the time. It was becoming a more and more professional environment even in the late 80s it seemed to me that most firms were offering really good training at the time. I'd done my hard a fantastic management development programme. I think the training I received was second to none. That's when I got a keen interest in leadership developed. Apart from being on the end of it. I was keen on it. So as my career progressed I eventually started managing managers. So then we could start putting some of my interested in leadership department into practise there and management development. And I did. I moved on from there in 96 to Prudential which was a bit of a cultural shock because it was a huge change for me. I then went to Pearl Assurance and the objective there was to be part of the team that had been parachuted in basically from different backgrounds. I was giving regions to manage. It was probably my biggest role today. My job was to manage managers first line and second line. And then there was me and there was an offer that came from the head of learning and development of the whole organisation. She liked what I was doing, she liked my background and she said come work for and put me the leadership and development programme for the company. We needed new one. Wow, what opportunity. Now all through my time in management to this point I've been on the end of different kinds of management and leadership development. In particular outdoor and adventure style and adventure-based learning and development which obviously not only gets people out of the comfort zone. You can also you know in what would be a safe environment. You can’t. You can't say falling in water and getting cold and what have you and snow. At one point we were in Alston Hall where it was snowing and it was up to. We were trapped in. We were trapped there for days. Alston Hall in Cumbria. We all of us had to get there. There was points to getting there I recall and it was all a real macho thing in those days. Probably wouldn't. Wouldn't fit well in today's environment but people actually waded waist deep through snow because they didn't want to lose  face or lose the points for because it was a points top up throughout and we've done stuff like that and and you know slept in a bivywack and in Kielder forest being on Dartmoor Chevin Valley and various different environments and done a lot of you know leadership and development stuff in that situation. I particularly believe in it. I think I'm passionate about it. I think. I think it's great. It's how we came to meet and that's me. So it's a complete the story. During the naughties I set up my own business as a consultancy. Leadership management development training and development. I had a guy working with me who was. He was more as training of soft skills and stuff. 2010/2011 St. James’s Place came knocking on my door and I was. After a couple of years of talking to them I was. I was not sure whether I wanted to do it. They offered me a role which basically involved identifying and buying businesses that we could buy. So M and A. I cut my teeth on M and A and the. In the. The other business I was in that was a good chance to go into a company that had very very deep pockets. And then I decided I was going to do something for myself actually five years I worked for them. And I said I lending me some money and I'll go find a business to buy and I'll turn it from A rusty bike into a racer. And in 2015 I borrowed a lot of money. We are talking six zeros plus and I did that with a five-year plan to sell the business and then basically retired that realised then retirement probably wasn't for me at 59 I wanted to get out of financial services because by that time I'd done about 30, 32 years in it. I thought right, what can I do? And that's when I approach you. I'm delighted be involved in the Anderton Centre and think we've really pulled up some trees so far with the work we've done in the last couple of years.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's been great to work with you and find out more about all the experiences that you've had across multiple roles. I think kind of like to go back to kinda your early days I suppose in terms of when did you first realise that sort leading people is a bit more complicated than just giving orders?

I was very lucky because I was put on the programme straight away and the people who were sponsoring me and the people that were around me were very, very effective and quality leaders. So I think it probably, it probably dawned on me subconsciously, I would say almost very early on that it wasn't about that at all. It was getting, it was getting the most out people by motivation particularly and getting people to buy into what you're doing, getting to understand what your goals and your vision are where you want to take things and go with that. I think what I did realise very quickly was that some people just won't buy into what it is an organisation or a person in an organisation wants to do and if they don't, they don't. And I think one of things I learned very, very quickly was that the quicker that conversation had with people like that then the better for them and their career and the better for the organisation.

And do you think there's a difference because sort of as you described your career path there, you've gone from sort of managerial positions probably more into more leadership positions.

Yes.

Do you think there's a significant difference between managing somebody on leading somebody?

I, definitely do. I think managing is all about. It's about the operational side of it. It's about task management, it's about people management day to day. It's more of a day-to-day thing I think is management. I think you can rely on process more if you're a manager. You can fall back on process I saw an awful lot of people in financial services, particularly in compliance who are compliance managers. So, for people who don't understand what compliance is in financial services who are listening, that's the bit, that's the rules. The bit that if you do that you're going to go out of business. If you don't do that you'll be in business and you'll do okay. And, and so what we had in the, in the FS industry was whole if you like career built out of compliance and the managers in there and a lot of the managers in there made the same mistakes over and over again which was falling back on process and falling back on rules rather than maybe applying common sense. Leadership on the other hand I think is for me it's all about having flare. It's all about having drive, it's all about having vision. I think it's about making things happen. Yeah. If it's to be it's up to me. Kind of thing that to me is leadership in a nutshell. I think you can go down in history of so many times and look at different situations where you look at the difference in leadership and management.

Yeah.

And you know the one I was fall back on is Margaret Thatcher and this is a history lesson but Margaret Thatcher and John Major the difference is chalk and g jess it the same government in theory say political party in charge. But her style was definitely leadership. His was definitely management. You only have to look at what she achieved and whether or not you have right or wrong with bear in mind it's a long time ago now. It's 50 years ago now. Perhaps not quite 50, certainly 45 years ago when she got into power. You have to look at what she achieved and what her legacy is. Now, look at his legacy. It was will he helped that happen or she made stuff happened. It was her vision, her what she wanted to do. So I think leadership is an outcome they almost certainly an achievement an achievement thing. I'm not saying people shouldn't, shouldn't be looking to achieve stuff in management but I think it's less so, less emphasis on that and more on the operation side day to day in management. So definitely yeah.

On the Business Life Jacket podcast we like to try and look into some of our past experiences and I've got a little bit of a story to tell you a little bit of our feature called Dave's Story Time. And I do have to say that all names have been changed to protect anybody. but potentially some of our listeners might be able to relate to from their own experiences. So I once worked for an organisation with a manager, let's call them Karen. Apologies to any Karens who had a special talent for managing people, specifically managing how to drive them. Absolutely bonkers. Karen was promoted to a leadership role at her company despite having no skills. But because she was great at spreadsheets, she would often state, if I could organise data, I could organise people. Karen had her own, let's call a unique approach to managing her team. Her philosophy? Micromanage everything, take credit for everything and anything that wasn't right. Blame others for what went wrong. Karen started with simple things. She would stroll around the office with a ruler, measuring how far employee staplers were from the edge of their desk. Ergonomics, she'd say. One time she gave an entire lecture on the right way to use sticky notes. Sticky notes go from left to right, people, not top to bottom. How can we expect to innovate if we can't even manage basic office supplies? Her obsession with tiny details didn't stop there. Every email sent to a client had to go through Ka. She would spend hours agonising over whether a sentence should end with a full stop or an explanation mark. If an employee used an explanation point, she would send it back with a passive aggressive Professionals, not circus clowns. Karen loved explanation points, but not when anyone else was using them. but it wasn't just the micromanage that got to the team. It was the bizarre way she handled team dynamics. Karen believed that healthy competition was the key to motivating people. So she implemented the most ridiculous incentive system ever seen. Employees could earn Karen points. These were points awarded for random things like how many times you replied to an email within two minutes, how clean your desk was after lunch. The kicker? You could cash in. Karen points Anything except gold stars on the office performance chart. Naturally, this led to chaos. One employee, Sarah, developed a reputation for sprinting to her desk every time she saw a new email pop up. One day she, accidentally knocked over a plant, sending soil flying across the office. But hey, she got 10 Karen points for email promptness. Another employee, Steve, was caught cleaning his desk during a meeting just to maintain his top spot on the chart, which ended with him knocking over his own coffee. To make Mach worse, Karen held team building exercises that seemed more like psychological experiments. One day, she divided the team into two groups, the productive ones and the ones with potential. No one knew how she made these selections, but everyone was Insulted. Then she had the two groups competing a scavenger hunt around the office where prizes were, you guessed it, Karen points. Tensions rose, friendships crumbled, and by the end, half the team wasn't speaking to each other or because Steve snatched a bonus clue from his desk. As the weeks passed, morale plummeted. People started calling in sick just to avoid Karen's never-ending critiques of their email signatures. Do you really need to say best regards? As if corporate EICA was an unsolvable mystery, the turnover rate skyrocketed. Did the HR department's inbox was flooded with resignation letters that read like hostage notes. I can no longer work an environment where sticky notes control my fate. Eventually, the CEO, Derek called wind of the situation when he noticed that the office performance char looked more like a leaderboard of particularly competitive kindergarten class. Employees had stopped caring about the actual work and were more concerned of how many Karen points they could rack up in a day. Derek called Karen into the office and asked what exactly is going on with your team? Productivity is down. Half the office is glued to their inboxes waiting for their next email like it's the Hunger Games. And I heard there was a physical altercation over a stapler adjustment. Karen, oblivious as ever, replied, it's all about attention to detail, grooming them for success. Derek politely suggested maybe she should try grooming herself for a role that didn't involve managing people and reassigned her to a position where she could focus on her beloved spreadsheets in peace. What do you think to that situation?

I think a lot of leadership, inadequacy and management inadequacy starts at the point of selecting.

Okay.

And I think clearly she was identified for management. It probably not the right characteristics and behavioural type for management of people maybe manage processes but not people. And there's the key to it, as you know David and we've done this with your staff and I mean we offer this through the Anderton Centre. Behavioural styles is key to me when you understand behavioural styles and there're only four so it's dead easy to understand. This isn't personality, it's about behaviour. Yeah, it's about the behaviour people display and there are four distinct styles as you know. Clearly Karen is more on the kind of thinking and analytical side. Cooler by personality without a doubt relationship clearly from what you told me aren’t 'important to Karen. She didn't really care who she upset and the sounds of it. Now there is a 2 degree. As a leader you have to be a bit like that. but you also have to them have a balance. She clearly went the other way. Was all about her ticking boxes, detail and what have you. If she'd had been behaviourally profiled by somebody who knew what they were doing before she was putting the role. I doubt whether she'd have been put in the role. She was managing people. I mean ludicrous is the word I would use as a one-word observation. But you know, is it the fault she was put in the role?

Do you think those skills could be developed and took that she could have become a better manager or better leader? I think something we always say is I think are they born.

I think, I think good leaders are born.

Okay.

I do. I don't think. I don't think good effective leaders can be moulded from people like that. I think she will always be like that. But that's okay because there is something that she can lead or can do or can manage. Might not involve people. Okay. Leadership isn't just about managing people or management isn't just about managing people. Yeah. And as the world moves on and it develops it's less. Less about that. Yeah. could she manage an organisation terms the strategic big picture that's the other piece of leadership. Probably not. It'd be very difficult to get her into that mindset and if you could it would take the best of time, money which most organisations wouldn't want to commit to. So, my answer to that is never say never put in my experience. I doubt it.

So, it's about getting the right people in the right roles.

Think be successful. Yeah. I mean even you've got some with raw materials and you've got this guidance that you need to. You know nobody starts off was the finished article do they Everybody developed. But I think there's got to be some raw material there, some essential characteristics and traits that have to be there for people to be leadership and management for that matter.

Definitely. I think the lesson that I've sort of taken from, from that experience is the micromanagement and over control kill creativity, and morale. And productivity.

Yeah.

And for me and my role here I believe that leadership is about trusting your team.

Yeah.

Not treating them like contestants.

Yeah. I mean, I mean I’ve put together a list of do’s and don’ts to become an effective manager and I've put a list of do's and don'ts together for leaders excel okay so it's two list.

Yeah.

So funny enough Effective leaders don't number one micromanage. Yeah. And actually nor do effective managers Effective managers be either in power or the delegates or the. There's got to be that element to trust otherwise it drives the manager out and it drives the. The follower. Yeah.

I think Leaders again from my point of empowering those employees but got to provide that clear direction ye and not getting the way of people doing their job. Quite often you might see things that you think well I wouldn't necessarily do but that needs to be communicated in a coaching style where you're sharing experience rather than saying you're doing it wrong. This is the right way. Y and again I think at perhaps a more managerial level you're basing that on those processes. But a leadership level has to be a development piece, doesn't it? You're developing that individual.

I think from what I'm seeing, I don't know whether this is will be financially driven, In many many organisations, kind of, We've got some solutions to this. I see a lot of organisations that kind of. They've got. They've got a succession plan, they've got a succession programme to promote new managers. Put people into positions to manage it and then. And the leaders will. Will stand out then the managers will go forward and what have you lead leaders for the future young people a lot of them have and all the rest to it. They put them in the positions but they don't give them the basics. so for instance what's the coaching model? What's the culture of this organisation? What's the culture of this organisation for giving feedback, for empowerment, delegation? What. What is it? What do we have in it? It doesn't have to be a rigid step by step. Here's the manual 1-10 type approach but there has to be cultural thing We've seen it here, we've seen some organisation coming here. I think they've got people in management positions they're not equipped to do some of the fundamentals like sit down and have a review meeting with somebody. It doesn't have to be three hours long but do some basics like what are the things you need to cover in a review meeting. I think there's too much assumption about what people are expected to do and if I had a magic wand it'd be getting that message through to people just invest a bit into that you're probably get more out of yours managers and your leaders.

Definitely. We've actually started to come towards the end of our time Richard but I thought it'd be really useful to give some of our listeners your kind of go to. What's your go to? Leadership traits that you believe are key.

Okay.

in leading an organisation.

Firstly set goals. Smart goals. Smart isn't just a thing in a handbook. Any management model or anything that you take on us there for a reason. Since so many people understand the model but they don't use the model in practise. So goals as a classic example have your goals sorted out. have your own personal goals. They should align with the organisation that you with or your own organisation if it's yours. and you obviously have your business goals and then your personal development goals. So how the wider what have those in place. Stick to them and run with those. Stay with them. Stay focused. Stay focused. Yeah. Stay stay on track. Try to avoid distractions. Be authentic the one I see a lot of leaders and managers who aren't authentic. They think they've got a spout spurt something they or say something because I'm sorry to say the last government and the current government there are classic examples where authenticity just doesn't exist. They're not authentic. You can't kid people. Be big on the big things. Too many managers and leaders, leaders this is particularly important be bring the focus on vision of strategy. You know if the small things in the details if the processes are a place to support will take care of all that. Push boundaries but don't break rules because break rules gets you into trouble loses jobs the in the extreme circumstances he end up in court and m possibly worse career over. So push boundaries but done it in other words be bold. I used to work for a guy who's now but knighted I worked with him in the early days he went off and set up his own company which he sold to huge huge European financial services giant for multi millions today Harris and he used to say boldness has genius and it isn't cal the true saying. So yeah Boldness says genius be bold and that's it really brilliant think I.

Think that risk and risk management and calculated risk is a really interesting subject to something we will concentrate on another one of our episodes but for now Richard thank you very much for joining me today.

Thanks for inviting me.

Thanks for joining us on the episode of the Business Life jacket podcast. We hope you're leaving with a few new ideas, some lessons from our mishaps, and maybe even a chuckle or two. Remember, business doesn't have to be all storms and stress. Sometimes you just need the right life jacket to keep things afloat. If you've enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe. Leave a review and share it with others who might need a little extra support in their business. Until next time, keep learning, keep laughing, and keep making waves.