IEPs vs 504s & How to Best Utilize Them

Navigating support within the public school system can feel overwhelming for families—but understanding the difference between a 504 Plan and an IEP is a powerful place to start. In this episode, Kendra sits down with educator Jim Sides to break down what these supports really mean and how they can help children succeed in the classroom.

Jim explains that a 504 Plan is often more straightforward, focusing on access and accommodations—like preferential seating or classroom adjustments—to help students fully participate in learning. In contrast, an IEP (Individualized Education Program) is designed for students with a verified disability and provides a more detailed, individualized plan with specific goals, services, and legal protections.

Together, they also discuss the challenges families may face within public schools and emphasize one of the most important takeaways: success comes through partnership. When families and schools work together with a shared goal, children are better supported to grow, learn, and thrive.

For more Aha Moments visit https://buildingallchildren.org/podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome. My name is Kendra Morgan, and I'm the host of the Rise and Build Podcast, where we hope to empower you to rise up and build a strong family, knowing you have to strengthen your hands to do the good work. Come with us as we rise and build. Hey you guys, welcome to the Rise and Build Podcast. I am excited about today. I am setting across from Jim's sides. He is an educator with years and years and years of experience. And today we are going to talk about some tough topics. We're going to talk about having struggles in the public schools and how to get some success through the public schools. We're going to talk about IEPs, 504 plans, therapy in the schools, tutoring in the schools, and what does all that look like? And how do we help you advocate so that your child can have success? Jim, thank you so much for being here with us today.

SPEAKER_04 0:58

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

I want our listeners and our viewers to hear from you. So I want them to know a little bit about you.

SPEAKER_04 1:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

I know when we we have talked about this topic in the BAC team a lot. It comes up often with our families. And when we were talking about it, your name kept coming up. Um and so I'm I I don't know you that well, but I just boldly texted you and said, Hey, would you sit down and and share this topic with us? Because I know you have a lot of knowledge. But tell us about you. We want to we want to get to know you a little bit better.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

Um I'll focus primarily on my education. Yeah, sure. Okay. That um most of my work was in the states of Iowa and Nebraska.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

And I was a social studies teacher, uh, started out my career and taught for eight years and was a coach. And uh I've always told my students that you know what to challenge yourself to try something different. So I took my own advice and went into school administration. I was a building principal for over 20 some years. And then uh after that uh I became the director of curriculum and assessment um for a couple of different school districts. The final one was a very large school district in Omaha, Nebraska, uh which I eventually retired from. So over 37 years in public education.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Man, well, thank you. We are big fans of educators. I believe with my whole heart that we can we wouldn't be where we are if we didn't have you guys. So thank you. I love that. I also love that you're not from Oklahoma, um, just because it's gonna be able to kind of tie some of this together.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Um so the IEP 504 special education program, there are federal laws that every state has to follow, but then there are the states can make some rules within themselves, correct?

SPEAKER_03 3:04

That is correct.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

So before we even like kind of dive into some of um my questions for you, could you just give us kind of a background of what is an IEP? What is a 504 plan? What is the difference? I know you can't be on both, so you have to kind of figure out what is best for your child. What does that look like?

SPEAKER_03 3:24

Yeah. Um it's really two different programs. Okay. Uh a 504 is a more uh simplistic.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Uh it's primarily comes under the Office of Civil Rights, okay, is where it originated from. Uh and it's more about getting access and accommodations. It's not necessarily about the curriculum. Okay. So it could be an example of uh um preferential seating. Um my child cannot see, so it needs to be up uh towards the front of the classroom.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:01

And those things need to be very spelled out. It just can't see it, say uh the preference of of the teacher.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

Uh as when I go into a 504, I want it to be very specific of what that looks like for that classroom teacher and for my student. Okay. And accommodation, uh, looking at it from um um a more simplistic, uh, my children played T ball.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

Okay. So the game is still the same, it's still baseball, right? But they needed assistance, so they put the ball on top of the the uh on the T.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

So that would be an accommodation.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

It doesn't change the game, it just changed the access and provide for the success of the kids. Okay. Same same thing with uh uh if you said to an adult, what would be an accommodation for you if I'm struggling hearing? Well, hearing aid, okay, that is an accommodation. Yeah. Okay, your glasses are all um accommodations. Yeah. So that's really what a 504 is. Okay. It's about access and the accommodations to provide.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Okay. Is it true to say that a 504 plan is more of kind of a medical plan? Like if you need medication or vision, hearing, like the medical piece of it, is that accurate to say that?

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Yes, that can occur under a 504 plan. And most 504 plans are for medical reasons.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Okay, so for example, um, if I have a multi-level building and uh a child uh has difficulty walking or with a wheelchair, okay, so give them access to to the elevator.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

That's an accommodation for uh for health reasons or medical reasons.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

Could be for um a diabetic um that carrying a phone that with the new patches on that they can monitor and see on their phone if they need uh additional insulin or any of those different things. Okay, that would be falling under a 504. Okay. It's providing that accommodation. Not necessarily dealing with the curriculum, right, but it really is providing access uh for the child to be successful.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Okay. And then explain what an IEP is.

SPEAKER_03 6:33

Okay, IEP is an individualized educational plan. Okay, and that's usually for uh verified uh disability, um, and federal government as well as state government outlines what those are. So that could be a um uh could be dyslexia.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

Uh it could be uh it could be a medical yeah that could be fallen under IEP. It's a more specific individualized plan to provide assistance for for a child. It has also more legal ramifications than a 504.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

And there's a process that schools have to abide by, uh, but there's also a process for parents to be involved in, outside experts to be informed and invited to IEP meetings if needed. Uh there's a process for if uh parents aren't satisfied, uh, there's advocacy groups, there's a it's more outlined and has more legal um points or rules associated than a 504.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Okay. And you have to qualify for the individual education program. You have to qualify for that for the IEP.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

Yes. And that's a process.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

It just doesn't say that uh I want my child on an IEP.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Right.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

There's a process that has to go through, and that's a longer process than a 504. 504s can happen very, very quickly, uh, done within a week to two weeks.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Okay. Could we talk a little bit about the process? Because we have just had a lot of families, they just don't even know how to get the process started.

SPEAKER_04 8:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

They'll come to us and say, I've told the teacher that he's struggling, or vice versa. The teacher will be sending them emails of how the child is struggling, but they don't know how to get to that next step of how do you get them tested, or how do you get them to qualify for an IEP? Could you first I think maybe we should even back up because you oversaw IEPs and 504s? I mean, that's what you did for a I mean, a long time.

SPEAKER_04 8:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

And not only did you oversee them, but you set in those meetings.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

That's correct.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

So you have, I mean, I feel like you're very knowledgeable in this area. Um, but talk to us about if I have someone listening to this going, I've tried to get help and I'm not getting any help. What does a family need to do?

SPEAKER_03 9:10

I think the one of the big things is find an advocate within the school.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

Okay. Whether that's a school counselor or an administrator or another teacher to say, assist me with the process of doing that. Schools require that written notification. So when a parent says, Well, I told the teacher I have to do this, they really need to provide a written request that um would like to meet and explain the options for um testing and providing services to to my child, whether that's a 504 or for an IEP. They need to request it in writing.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 10:01

Yes. So uh, and a lot of times um I've dealt with parents who will say, Well, I I told the teacher that well, you don't go into enough specifics. A written request will outline specifically my child uh has difficulty reading complex sentences or understanding vocabulary. Try to be specific in the writing, and then the schools have to, there are timelines from a written request that they need to set up a parent meeting to go over parental rights, um, to outline completely the the process. And um so yeah, the biggest thing is for parents to provide written notification.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

So they can just start an email to the teacher, maybe copy the principal on it or find the school counselor, all that's on the website.

SPEAKER_04 10:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

And just email them with a list of your concerns and and kind of request like you would like a meeting set up so that you can see if testing needs to be done.

SPEAKER_04 11:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

I think it is fair for families to know it's a process. Like it doesn't happen quick.

SPEAKER_04 11:14

That's correct.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

And and really it's designed that way. Because if it happened quick, on a bad day, a kid might get a wrong diagnosis, right? Like it is a process. Um, could you talk a little bit about that process on the educate on the teacher side, on the education side, so that families understand that they have to meet for a while and have document and keep keep records before they just go out and test a child.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Could you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_03 11:41

Yeah. So one of the things that will occur after you provide written notification that you want to at least start the process and consider testing in regards to to that. That um a lot of times that uh they'll ask the teacher, what type of things are you providing right now uh for the child? And going back to accommodations. Okay. Okay, so um I provide written notes for for the child, might be uh an example. Um so a lot of it starts out the conversation with the teacher saying, What things are you observing as a classroom teacher?

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

Well, it could be that I notice that the child appears to be uh dazing off or not focused. Uh that the child um it looks like uh struggles with their math uh concepts of those different things. So it's starting the process of providing observational data from the teacher. Okay. Okay. But also for um it it it starts the ball rolling.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

Okay. For a parent, it's very important for them to also say, these are things I'm observing at home. So then it becomes a shared responsibility. I think um at different times that um parents play the blame game to to schools aren't doing enough. I think at times that schools play the blame game back at parents that why aren't you doing these different things? And the big part is to set up that communication and come in it from a positive. Everybody wants the child to succeed, including the child.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

And the child has a shared responsibility with that as as well. Uh a lot of times, particularly younger kids, are very hesitant to say that they may feel um I don't want to be singled out.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

And uh uh I'm gonna give you an example from my own personal life that still haunts me to this day. That uh when I was in first grade, that all of a sudden, one day, a teacher came and said, You gotta go down to this room. So I didn't know what it was for. Yeah, and it was a long hallway to in this elementary school, and went up two steps to this very uh room, and it was a speech language and said, Well, you can't say like your THs or your L's and stuff like that. And that is one of the reasons I'm very passionate about being able to provide assistance because it was such a negative experience for me. It helped me to pronounce and made me very conscious, but the way they went about it, yeah, um, I wanted to be with my classmates.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

And I didn't understand why I was pulled out.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

And I don't remember ever having a conversation with my parents in regards to that. It was just something that the the schools did.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:12

So um I understand the the fear uh for parents and for students and for for education. Yeah, it has to be a shared advocacy for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Working together definitely is the best way.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

It's just I think from coming from a parent, it's there's high emotions.

SPEAKER_04 15:32

Yes, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:33

And so that's their baby, and they're trying to do what's best. But when you sit around a table with a bunch of educators, it can be very intimidating. Yes. Um, and so we hear that all the time from our families that they don't know the laws, they don't know the rules.

SPEAKER_04 15:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Um, and it it can just be a little bit overwhelming. Could we talk a little bit? You uh your story intrigued me with being pulled out of class.

SPEAKER_04 15:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Um, so if you're on an IEP, so that means you're into the special ed program, do you have to be pulled out of class to get services?

SPEAKER_03 16:06

No.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 16:08

Uh you do not. And that should be all outlined in the in the meeting and what services are provided.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Um special education law deals with the least restrictive environment. So um initially, the least restrictive environment that you should start with is in the classroom. In the immediate classroom. Yeah. Okay. Uh I was a big prop proponent of um co-teaching, okay. Where the special ed teacher would come into the classroom and provide services. And I always believe that it didn't matter if you were a special ed teacher or a regular education teacher, you're a teacher first. So you help everybody.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:56

And there's different models of co-teaching where it might be individual poll out within that classroom setting that a group of students go over to this area where a table is set up, be able to provide assistance. Might be in the instructional methodology to do that. So everything doesn't have to be a poll out. Um, I think in the past that was occurred.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

That uh students were were pulled out. And um I think you're seeing a shift back to to being able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Stay in the classroom as much as possible.

SPEAKER_03 17:37

Yes. But everything needs to be that has to be outlined and in writing.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

In the IEP.

SPEAKER_03 17:43

In the IEP. Yes. I think for a lot of times where parents don't feel comfortable in a meeting, and educators are like any profession, we have our own jargon. Yeah. And start throwing out different verbiages or acronyms for those different things. Uh, one of the things I saw my role as being able to say, okay, let's talk, and not with a verbal jargon. What does this exactly mean? And um a lot of times that school officials want to solve everything very, very quickly.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

Okay, that you need to do these things. Well, the parents are still the primary educators and um that they need assistance uh to do that. It's it's it's not easy for school officials or for parents. But I think school administrators who do need to be present at IEP meetings need to be uh an advocate not only for the parent, the student, and the teachers themselves, and sometimes remove that educational jargon.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

And I have found that the older I got, there became a low level of more uh understanding from a parent standpoint. Um I used to always say to our teachers, till you have your own child, you don't know.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

That's true.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

So you can say, these are the things that the book tells me to do, but till you really experience that as a parent, uh it's not gonna make sense. And then particularly if you have a special needs child as a classroom teacher, it opens up your mind to all the struggles and the resources that you need to find, uh not only from the school's perspective, but me as an individual parent.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Okay. Um, as far as those IEPs, um can we talk about therapy for just a little bit? Because um, one, I think we have a lot of families that don't even realize school can provide some therapy. And then again, um, they just want that speech therapy ASAP. And I'm like, you have to be evaluated. Like the child has to be seen by a speech pathologist and evaluated, and they there's criteria like you have to qualify for for school therapy. So you can go out and pay privately and necessarily not have to qualify, but there are some percentages and standards that you have to qualify to get therapy in school.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

That's correct.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Could you explain that process?

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Yes, that uh well that would become part of that written request and meeting with uh school officials and through their observational data, what are the things they're seeing? And then you would have somebody go in and monitor it. Okay. Okay, so speech pathologists may go into to the classroom and just basically observe, and as a uh parent, that they would be taking notes and those diff uh different things. Uh whether it's mental health therapy, uh, which is a big push right now, which is well as as it should be.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Right.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

Uh, maybe that is assigned to to a counselor, maybe that is small group different things uh dealing with mental health, maybe that is direct. A lot of schools right now are contracting with mental health services uh to be able to provide it. A lot of times uh schools also provide um students assistance um resources for let's say a uh therapy that at no cost to the parents that it's it's part of a contract between the school district and this mental health services.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

That for parents may be able to receive services for two. Times. It could be one of the things that we really pushed for is for the mental health people to come into our school center and be able to provide direct services during the school day. Because a lot of parents work and are don't have the time that works into their schedule to do that. So we were able to bring in a psychologist, a counselor, a social worker to work directly with a student in a school setting. But that was all within the permission of the parent to do that. So therapy can occur in schools as a parent that if you do those services privately, the school is not responsible for paying for those services. Schools have to provide, uh they do not have to provide what our jargon is Cadillac services. Okay. Okay. That you still can provide services, but you cannot provide.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Yes, that's good. I also think it's really healthy for families to know that, because I know our public schools, they're the same thing. They partner with counselors that can come in. And I love it because same thing, they don't have time in the evenings to get them where they need to go. And but sometimes those counseling services will bill their insurance.

SPEAKER_04 23:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

And I think families need to know that because we've had families not know that and their insurance was getting billed, and then they went off to do private and they couldn't do both.

SPEAKER_04 23:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

So I think it's healthy for families to know that the schools can bill insurance. I also think it's really important to know that they can provide speech therapy, physical therapy, occupational therapy, and then the mental health counseling piece. Some school districts have vision, like vision therapists on their staff.

SPEAKER_04 24:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Um, but you don't necessarily have to. I think that's where it kind of goes state from state. Um, a lot of questions, too, we get asked is my son has sensory processing, but they won't do OT. But we always have to explain to our families that the school's job is to provide an education. And so the OTs are really more set up for writing and fine motor for the education piece. Yes. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Yes. Okay. So uh you're exactly correct. That um the school is their obligation is more of the educational standards that the state has put out. The specifics with OT, uh speech, et cetera, depending on um how severe it is, the school may not be able to provide those services. Or the school contracts with a speech pathologist. Speech pathologists are very, very expensive. Occupational therapists are very, very uh expensive. So a lot of times it's a shared partnership in regards to uh to those different things. Most outside agencies will provide a sliding scale for parents. Okay. So if they say that um, you know what, um this is gonna cost $200 an hour. Okay. The school, if they set up a contract with that services, may provide that for two free times. Okay. Okay. But the contractor may say that on a sliding scale, we will do this. So we'll work with you and your insurance to see if they will cover it. Um the the biggest part for parents to understand is if they seek out private therapy, right? Whether it's hearing, any of those different things, the school is legally not obligated to pay for those services.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Let me ask you this a lot of our families will get therapy like counseling in the school setting or even meet with a speech pathologist, but they never hear from them.

unknown 26:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

And so I in order to get a therapy in school, and I don't know about the mental health piece, the counseling, but speech, OT, they have to set goals and they have to be tangible to meet those goals. Yes. And when you review the IEP every year, you kind of go over percentage like where they are in meeting that goal. Yes. What if a family never hears from the counselor? I mean, do they have the right to get a progress report? Or how does that work?

SPEAKER_03 26:52

Yes, legally they do have to provide uh a reporting process, and that needs to be spelled out in the IEP.

unknown 27:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

IEPs require that they are reviewed at the minimal uh once a year.

unknown 27:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

And then after three years, that um you have to do a uh full evaluation again. But as a parent, I can request the IEP team to say um um, can we meet quarterly?

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 27:25

Okay. Uh as part of the IEP, that uh every two weeks uh I would like a report in regards to where my child is in regards to those goals.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

That's great.

SPEAKER_03 27:39

Those have to be all spelled out in the IEP.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

And that's why it's very important to set up that kind of partnership with schools. Um if you assume that they're just going to do that all the time, they're not. Everybody has a very busy schedule. Everybody's busy, whether you're an educator or a non-educator, they're you're busy in your in your life. So unless those things are specifically spelled out, you're not going to get a progress report. If I request through the IEP process, I would like to get a quarterly report of where we're at in regards to the progress. Uh in an IP, it's called a present level of performance.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

Okay. Once again, it's that verbal jotted into educators. Um but those things need to really be spelled out of how you would like to have uh progress or lack of progress reported to you.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Okay. And then tutoring, if a teacher wants to tutor a child after school, that's that's typically paid for by the parent if the teacher charges or I mean the the public schools is not responsible for tutoring, is what I guess. We have a lot of parents that think they are and they're not.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

Yeah, and those services cannot be provided on school time.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 29:09

So when the teacher teachers have uh official time contracts. Okay. So if I said that uh you can come in uh during my eighth hour class and I will do tutoring for for you, uh that's not allowed.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 29:27

A teacher cannot do that. It would have to be off-duty time, and that is paid directly by the parent to to the teacher.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

The schools do not give anything to do with that with that.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Okay. Well, so as we're wrapping this up, our whole goal is we want parents to learn to advocate for their children. Do you have any wise counsel that you would want to share with about that?

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Um I think for parents to understand is that school officials uh are not trying to be antagonistic that uh they want also the best for for your child. And sometimes each parents as well as school officials um when it's not set up in a conversational style, and that sometimes emotions get very heated, yeah, that it needs to be stepped back, yeah, and that everybody wants the best for uh for their child. Um I'm a firm believer that uh schools write mission statements and they write uh vision statements. And you can look up Tulsa Public Schools, Union, Jinx, uh the school districts I associated with, almost everything in those mission and vision statements is about learning. That all students, all students, not 50%, not 70%, all students uh are capable of learning, and it's important for school districts to find out the unique learning styles and different methodologies associated to keep your child uh making progress. And it's not an adversarial role. And sometimes you need that third party of a school administrator, a counselor, yeah, a trusted advocate. Parents in an IEP can invite whoever they want into to a meeting.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

And uh so uh the biggest insight, I guess, is that it is a shared responsibility and that everybody does want the best for their child.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Yeah, and that they have some power. I mean a parent has power in this. And just because you don't have an education degree, you can still be the leader of that IEP meeting. And it's it is important to understand the laws.

SPEAKER_04 32:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Right? We have parents that say, well, I've been waiting for the evaluation and it's never happened, but they never sign consent.

SPEAKER_04 32:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

And some of these public schools have a really long waiting list, so they put them on the waiting list and don't sign consent because once they sign consent, they have 45 days they've got to test that child.

SPEAKER_04 32:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

And so it's just knowing to push to get the signatures, you know, to know to know your legal rights.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Yes. One thing I would insist upon as a parent is uh during an IP meeting or a 504 meeting, that I would like someone to take notes and then at the end of the meeting to read back those notes. And that everybody's in agreement of what was said, so things are not misinterpreted, and that thinking of, well, I thought they were gonna do this. Right. And they thought I was gonna do this.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:01

So I I think it's very important to request that the school take written notes and that those notes are read at the end, and then they're signed off by you as a parent, yeah, and they're signed off by uh the school officials who are in attendance at that meeting.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

I love it. Is there anything else you want to add? Um I feel like we could talk for a few more hours because you have a lot of knowledge in there. Um I mean, the you have this is your area for sure. So I'm so grateful for this time.

SPEAKER_03 33:33

Yeah. Um, is there anything else you um I think that people go into education because they do want to make a difference. And school officials do not make a lot of money, but they are rewarded in many ways beyond financial.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

And uh they want to work with parents, but it is really about setting up a true partnership between you as a parent and the school.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Yeah. And most of the time, if you have a parent that is working hard, following through with what you recommend, that that team bonding kind of happens, right?

SPEAKER_04 34:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

It's when you start to get really defensive, feel like you're being attacked. I think that those are the families that just need to take a deep breath.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

And know that really and truly the educator's on their side.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Uh, one thing we do recommend for our families is this book. Um, here I he I think he's local. It's Peter and Pamela Wright, and he often does conferences. I know he's been here in Tulsa, but he's kind of probably nationally. I mean, he goes all over and does conferences. Um, and I think it's important that families know their rights and know right from wrong, not because the schools don't do them, it's because the schools serve a lot of children. Yes. And they're trying to do their very best, but kids can fall through the cracks. And as a parent, it's our job to advocate and make sure that they get the services that they need so that they can have success. Um, and it goes, special ed goes from three to twenty one. I think a lot of people think at 18 it's over. Yeah. Um, but it does, it goes till they're 21.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Um, but it's important to know those facts also.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

Yes. And schools do have a legal responsibility to present you with your rights and what the whole procedures are. So when you go into to a meeting, they will give you your rights and procedures and all the things associated. Besides that resource, you can go to the Department of Education for the state of Oklahoma, look under uh special education, and it'll provide all the different things of what your rights and responsibilities are and what are steps that you need to take if those things don't happen. And those are all outlined.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

Uh there's also uh multiple resources uh of advocacy groups to assist, and those are all through uh the Department of Education, your school district. If you connect with them, they'll be able to provide additional resources of different advocacy groups that may assist you as well.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

That's great. I love that. Tulsa does have some great advocacy programs, but I love that you give the websites so that people from all over can connect.

SPEAKER_04 36:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 36:28

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

And thank you for your time. Building all children always wraps up with the scripture. Um, I think Philippians 4.19 is such a great one because it kind of talks about how we serve just a really, really good God. And this says, and my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches and the glory in Jesus Christ. And I think it's so important that while we have great resources, we also have a good God that just wants to provide for our needs. So we always tell our families turn back to him and ask for him to provide the right people and pray and ask for him to help you guide, guide you through this and give you wisdom. Um, but really and truly, here on earth, we've got to step up and be our kids' advocate.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

I love it. Very well said.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Thank you so much for your time. Um, this is such a topic that comes up. Honestly, in Building All Children, it probably comes up daily. So I think there's a lot of parents that will benefit from good learning from you. So thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_03 37:27

You're welcome. Thank you.