S2E16: Communication vs. Technique: 3 Chiropractic Truths That Changed How I Practice

This episode of Beyond Adjustments is a special "best-of" clip show - three unforgettable moments from past conversations that reshaped how host Amin Said thinks about chiropractic care.

🎙️ Clip 1 - Dr. Daniel Kimberly: Why communication might matter more than the adjustment itself, and how chasing "Instagram-worthy" technique is hurting the profession's ability to actually help patients.

🎙️ Clip 2 - Dr. Peter Kevorkian: The truth about pediatric and infant chiropractic care (it's not just "adults, but smaller"), the philosophy of "less is more," and a direct answer to the question: can a chiropractic adjustment cause paralysis?

🎙️ Clip 3 - Dr. Justin Dick: A groundbreaking, three-dimensional explanation of scoliosis using a simple rubber-band analogy for torsion - plus why bracing has historically failed and what's different about modern, three-dimensional approaches.

Whether you're a chiropractor, patient, or just curious about how the body really heals, these three conversations get to the heart of what separates technically skilled practitioners from those who build lasting trust with their patients.

🎬 Watch the Full Episodes:
▶️ Dr. Peter Kevorkian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_DcgTwcbvg
▶️ Dr. Daniel Kimberly: https://youtu.be/ag2ffW1iFyw?si=NkVNXxkUeYNAA0NE
▶️ Dr. Justin Dick: https://youtu.be/RUe5kgTTRhc?si=okPRkb88AthN1BC1

Keywords/Tags: chiropractic, chiropractor, scoliosis, pediatric chiropractic care, chiropractic adjustment, spinal health, Webster Technique, Clear Institute, chiropractic communication, Beyond Adjustments podcast

Connect & Learn More:
🌐 Beyond Adjustments: https://beyondadjustments.com
🌐 Dr. Daniel Kimberly / Nexus Family Chiropractic: https://nexusfamilychiropractic.com
🌐 Dr. Justin Dick / Clear Life Scoliosis: https://clearlifescoliosis.com/
🌐 Life West (Dr. Peter Kevorkian): https://lifewest.edu/president

If you would like to become a paid supporter of Beyond Adjustments to help fund our mission to educate the world about the power of Chiropractic care, please visit - https://www.buzzsprout.com/2410103/support 

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:02

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to Beyond Adjustments. I'm your host, Amin Saeed. So we've been gone for a minute, you know, a couple weeks. If you're a regular here, you noticed that, and I want to address it because I think you deserve that much. Two reasons. Number one, it's summer. I have a family. We're doing family things. We are present, right? We're enjoying it. And I am genuinely not apologizing for that. It's been a good summer. Number two, we had a change in our production company. And yeah, so that's that happened. And we're not gonna get into the details of that today because this is not that kind of show. But yeah, you know how it goes sometimes. Okay, so while we've been in this, you know, whole transition, enjoying the summer, sorting out the production side of things, we went back through our archive and we pulled three clips, three moments from past episodes that stuck with me long after we stopped recording. And that is actually saying something because we have had a lot of incredible conversations on this show. But these three specifically, there's something about them that I just kind of kept going back, right? And it just kind of kept coming back to me, also. So something that shifted how I think about this the profession in general. So that is what this episode is, right? So no new interview, just three moments that are worth revisiting with a little context from me going into each one. So let's get into it.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

My dad did not understand in his brain how I could quit a job that I was good at and gonna get promotions in and go do something completely new and completely different. Can you explain torsion?

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Torsion. Uh imagine taking a rubber band and stretching it and turning it and turning it and turning it and turning it.

SPEAKER_05 1:58

If I take my pinky and I put it uh right here, I'm on my atlas vertebra. Okay. But if I take that same pinky, put it onto the neck of a child, it could be on the atlas, the axis, third cervical, maybe even the fourth cervical, depending on the size of that person.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

All right, clip number one. This is from my conversation with Dr. Daniel Kimberly, a good friend of mine. And if you have not heard that full episode yet, I really want you to go back and find it after this because we covered a lot of ground. Uh, but here's what I want to set up for you going into this moment. So we're deep into a conversation about where chiropractors kind of overcomplicate things. Like, what's the actual gap between someone who is technically excellent and someone who builds a practice that works, right? Where does that split happen? And Dr. Daniel makes this case, and I remember when he said it, I just kind of stepped back and he makes the case that communication, not technique, is where most chiropractors drop the ball. And then he takes it one step further. He argues that communication might actually be more important than the adjustment itself. Now, if you're a chiropractor and you just heard that your gut might just push back, I mean mind it a little, but listen to how he frames it. And then we get into social media, the crack and pop culture on Instagram, what that has kind of done to the profession's ability to communicate its actual value. And I will tell you right now, I had to hold myself back a little in this conversation. You'll see why. Here's the clip. Where do you where do you see chiropractors overcomplicating things? Like the most, like the most, really, like instead of just kind of mastering the basics.

SPEAKER_03 3:51

I think there's a couple of places, and you hit both of them. Is I'm big on communication. Always happened, even in Cairo school, I was like, I just I came from a background where like my dad did not understand in his brain how I could quit a job that I was good at and gonna get promotions in and go do something completely new and completely different and like take the risk to do it, sell off everything we had. So, like to me, I always wanted to know like how could I explain this so clearly that my dad would understand it. And I think communication is one of those places where a lot of Kairos just like think I'll figure it out later. Um, and I've just been obsessed with this. So I think communication is one for sure, and we can dive more into that on like a tactical level if you want to. But I think, yeah, I think you hit it too when you talked about the technique piece of it, is like I'm I think technique's important, but nobody cares what it's called. They just want to see a result from it. This is the problem that I really see with people is like, especially students in school, they'll spend their entire three years in school plus learning technique. And I'm not saying it's wrong, but this is the issue that I see. They get out into the world and it's like nobody cares because they can't explain it. And nobody cares because they can't communicate it. So then they have this like really cool looking Instagram re-worthy technique that nobody gives a crap about. And I'm like, dude, you gotta, you gotta have both of those things, which are so fundamental. And I think the communication is arguably more important than the adjustment in some ways.

SPEAKER_04 5:31

Absolutely. Yeah, so true. And and and maybe we do get down to kind of the practical sense and and and cover a little bit tactically what that looks like. But before we do, um, what what fundamentals do you think are really like the non-negotiables, right? No matter what technique someone practices.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

You obviously got to be able to do a good exam. So, and I think that plays into like you got to know where you're gonna adjust somebody. And so, like, I take a very brain-based approach. So we're like measuring different lobes of the brain and doing some cool testing. And like while I'm biased, and I would say that's the only way to do it. Um, it's you just one, it's confidence first and foremost. But then two, being able to have some semblance of like, all right, do you know what to do with this person that definitively is going to get them a good result and outcome? And from there, man, like it doesn't, doesn't have to get complicated beyond that. Like people ask me all the time when they see the Arthur stand, they're like, that's it. I have patients who ask me, like, that's it. But because I'm so confident and like I know exactly what their body needed through the analysis that I do, it doesn't have to look cool. It doesn't have to feel cool, it doesn't have to sound cool with a big, huge pop in a crack that gets millions of views on Insta. Don't get me started. So, like, you know what I mean? It's so it's it's I think it's really just those things. It's like, do you have a way to definitively say this is what this person's body needs? And I'm gonna make a clear distinction with you only because I've had the opportunity, which is so cool, to have the a couple of these conversations with you. I think that a lot of times we go in, especially in school, we're taught like when you see these things, this is what you do to that person. And that's how the medical profession is. They're like, when you see these symptoms that you prescribe this medication. And I think getting really good at Cairo is going, what is this person's body telling me that it needs? And being able to figure that out, and then only deliver what that person's body needs. And I think that's a huge distinction. So then we're getting to an individual, like literally individualized care.

SPEAKER_04 7:39

Yeah, no, that's good. Um so so let's let's do that then. Let's let's go back. What does boring look like? What is mastering the basics look like tactically?

SPEAKER_03 7:52

If we talk about specific to technique, I I mean, dude, it really gets down to like the line of drive that you're using, how what your indicators are that you could say unequivocally every time, this is what this person's body's showing me. Um, and it what what I find especially is like it's easy because you get in this groove where you get good at it. And then the hard part is like, now let me go learn whatever thing, whatever other therapy. And then that takes away from like becoming that 10,000 hour master of the craft of just doing the thing until you're literally so good at it that you have the confidence and be able to communicate it as well. So I really think it comes down to those two things is like not necessarily the palpation, but like the line of drive that you have, the knowing that you know that you know that when you put that input into their body, their body will be able to use it. It's it's that simple.

SPEAKER_04 8:48

Well, and what is what does it look like from a communication perspective?

SPEAKER_03 8:52

Yeah, so I mean, I've dude, I have spent a ton, I spent eight years committed to like how do we communicate a message to somebody that's like completely outside of the box of anything they've ever heard before in a short enough time frame that they're not bored and like think you're crazy or trying to spit too much science at them. And so for me, the number one thing is telling people the truth. Like that's what it has always boiled down to me. So I'm not talking half truths, I'm not talking it like we just explain it this way because it's easy to explain that way. Um and I if you want me to, I will, but I don't want to get too far down that rabbit hole. But I think the thing is that telling someone the truth about how their body works and getting them to go, how come nobody's ever told me that before? Um, so what does that require on like a tactical level? Well, one, it requires a confidence and certainty that you know the science, but then that you can take that science and effectively communicate it in a way that like speaks directly to someone's pain point. That for me in my office is never just back pain or neck pain, like literally never ever. So we're talking like third degree pains. And then having an understanding that we're not trying to sell somebody on chiropractic. Like what you're really trying to sell them on is the fact that their body can heal. And I think that so often it's easy to be like chiropractic's so great and the body knows how to heal itself and all this stuff, but you gotta remember like you're sitting in front of a person. And so much of what I've experienced, even this week, dude, I could share some crazy stories. It's like my unequivocal dedication to telling someone the truth and letting them know that their body's capable of healing outside of like being obsessed with chiropractic. It's not about chiropractic, it's about the person. Nobody they don't care about chiropractic. They want to know how can you help me. And when you can like nail that so well, dude, it makes it undeniable that people will see you and stick with you and refer to you and all the other stuff. Sure. That everybody wants to get without doing the work.

SPEAKER_04 11:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so I want to tie a couple things together, right? So you you made you made a comment earlier, right? You're you know, you're talking about confidence, you're talking about, you know, clear communication, you know, we're talking about just all this stuff tactic tactically, but you made a comment earlier about um the the the cracks and the pops on social media. And and I said, don't get me started, right? But yeah, I want to go back to that for a second because I think it's important. Um, because I think that's diluted um or made it even harder for chiropractors to really practice the way they need to. Listen, I I'm I'm all for that. You guys want views on Instagram? Um, I I get it, right? You're trying to get a following, it's all power to you, uh, but let's not lose the message, is my opinion, right? And I think we do at times, and it becomes this game, right? Oh, that was a good crack. Oh, great. Okay, that's extra bubbles coming. You know, come come on, like let's get let's get down to the science, let's focus more on what you're talking about. Let's talk about actually convincing people that our bodies are designed the way they are on purpose and that they're designed to heal themselves, but we have to get them into a place that where, you know, it needs to function properly in order to do that. So let's let's get back to that kind of basic, right? So, my question to you there is do you think social media has made chiropractors feel like they need to be more complex, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:28

To be taken seriously. I mean, dude, I think about this all the time. And it like, I know this is a problem. I have friends who are going to message me after they watch this episode and they're gonna be like, dude, why you gotta hate on why you gotta hate on my technique like that? Like, I know they're gonna do it. So, like, I'm gonna say for the record, like I am not hating on it. I just think there's a better way. So, like the Y strap would be one of those. Like somebody lays down. I'm like, how do you know what's moving and what's not moving? So that's one thing. And again, dude, like I'm not trying to be a hater because I see that people can get results with it. I've seen people who've had terrible results with it. Um and like time and time again in my practice is what I see is like we just get consistently good results. So that would be one example. Or the other is like, all right, I gotta go now learn a technique where I stand on the table and I like cup somebody's head and I'm like straddling them and I'm like rubbing up against their shoulder and they're like heads in mine and I'm breathing on them and like to do this adjustment. And I'm like, dude, I'm pretty sure that we don't like we don't need the theatrics.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

And so, like, even though it, I think so. That's where social media comes in, really, is like, we don't need the theatrics. What we need is to just show people that, like, hey, you can get really, really good results. And it's just become this like watered down, like the crack is the thing. Yeah. Which we know, like, dude, all of Heidi's research points to like that's only true sometimes. And there are indicators that go with when you adjust a certain segment, that and that segment needs it based on her criteria. That's the only time we get the input to the frontal cortex that dampened the N30 amplitude. So, like this like global, let's just pop everything approach, like scientifically, based on the best chiropractic research that I've seen, is not validated at all. And it's a bummer because then there's people like me who like you look at it and it's like that doesn't look cool on camera at all. But I can tell you when a kid has had seizures their entire life and they stop having seizures, like that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 14:34

Yeah, oh yeah. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 14:38

Yeah, that one gets me every time. The Instagram realign, a really cool-looking technique that nobody gives a crap about because that is real. You can be the most technically gifted person in the room, but if the patient in front of you does not understand what you're doing and why it matters for them specifically, you've already lost them. And I think that kind of tension between the technical mastery and communication mastery is something this profession is still working through, in my opinion, at least. So though those are kind of two completely different skill sets, and you need both. Alright, clip two. This is from my conversation with Dr. Peter Kavorkian. Uh, Dr. Peter, and this was the first time he was on the show, not the second time. And Dr. Peter brings a level of experience and kind of philosophical depth to this work that I genuinely respect. The part I want you to hear is where we get into pediatric care, specifically what it actually takes to be competent, adjusting children, infants, specifically, because there is a real misconception out there that it is just a scaled-down version of what you do with adults, right? And Dr. Peter dismantles that. His whole philosophy is less is more with kids. And the way he explains why, including how long it personally took him to develop the sensitivity to feel what he called the craniorhmic impulse when he was learning the cranial work. It is one of those answers that makes you realize how deep the craft actually goes when practitioners commit to it fully. And then I kind of put him on the spot a little bit. He had this thing called the phenomenal minute, kind of short accessible chiropractic education. And I gave him a question that I genuinely used to be afraid of years ago. Can someone get paralyzed from a uh chiropractic adjustment? Well, watch how he handles it. You mentioned that it starts from birth, right? The way your body is okay. So with with Westwood, right, your your your practice. Yeah you you you care for all ages, right? So but what I would say what what unique considerations do you take uh or do you teach your associates to take um when when treating uh children, right, versus adults.

SPEAKER_05 17:21

So the uh the the the process of pediatric care adjustments of uh a young child uh has been around literally since the beginning of the profession. Okay. But the true uh development of uh focused for pediatric care, I'm gonna give credit to Dr. Larry Webster. Larry Webster, uh who was the developer and creator of the Webster technique you might have heard of. I have, yeah. Larry Webster was the founder of the ICPA, the International Chiroprada Pediatric Association, and really felt as though chiropractors, although they got some um introduction to caring for children in chiropractic school, that that that there was work that could really be done to elevate the uh specificity and proficiency and competency of the chiropractor adjusting children. You know, if I take my pinky and I put it uh right here, I I'm on my atlas vertebra, okay? But if I take that same pinky, put it onto the neck of a child, it could be on the atlas, the axis, the third cervical, maybe even the fourth cervical, depending on the size of that person. So how do you find a way to put a force in very specifically to an area of the spine without engaging more areas of the spine, without over uh putting too much force into the body? Uh the indicators that we look at in in an adult an adult can sometimes be very, very, very evident. And a child becomes a little bit more subtle. Uh so honing in your skills of being able to evaluate a child or an infant or newborn and being able to specifically apply a corrective force, the adjustment to that child requires training. Um the ICPA offers that. Uh my associates uh uh have been trained through the ICPA as well as uh within my practice. Uh but the um you know the there's no simple thing I can tell you in in in words. It's just oh do this and you could be uh a chiropractor for adults and then take care of kids. It requires a different level of uh training, awareness, sensitivity. Yes, many of the things that we know relative to adults translate down into a pediatric spine, but but there are nuances and um subtleties that really need to be uh developed. Yeah. Uh I remember the first time that I uh was trying to learn cranial work, okay, which is uh adjusting the the cranial bulbs, which you can do in adults, but but uh but particularly with with with children because the cranium is still so pliable and the spinal cord attaches throughout the cranium. The covering of the spine, uh called the meninges, attaches not not just to the spinal cord, but also attaches throughout the cranium. So you can make an impact and effect into the entire spine by by by taking care of of a cranium, particularly in a child. Uh but I remember the first time that it was palpating, the cranial rhythmatic impulse, the the very subtle sensation of the movement of the cerebral spinal floor. I didn't feel nothing. It took me over nine months to to really begin to hone in and develop skill of being able to feel the cranial rhythmic impulse. So it takes patience, uh watching subtleties. Um the general rule of thumb that I will tell every chiropractor with kids, infants, babies, less is more. Less is more. Less facts usually get you further. Less less less contacts, less input into the system usually gives you more.

SPEAKER_04 21:04

Good answer. I love that. So I I I noticed some videos that you have out there. Um I believe you called it the phenomenal minute, right? Um so I I I I did watch a few. It it really uh I I would say it provides, I guess, accessible uh um bite-sized education on chiropractic care. What what inspired this uh initiative really and and how do you see it empowering patients?

SPEAKER_05 21:34

So um if you saw me and you said, Hey Pete, how's it going today? My usual answer is phenomenal. Phenomenal phenomenal is my work. Okay. So I I I I your patients would say, uh what's going on today? Things are phenomenal. Love it. Love it. So I and I've done that for ages. Um a very, very good friend of mine, colleague of mine in Praxon, Massachusetts, uh uh Doctor Jean-Marc Slack. Uh when you asked him, he got a phrase that he learned from Sid Williams. He says, Well, this friend Jackson says, Near perfect. And so so Jean-Marc had actually started a um a weekly video similar to my thing called the Near Perfect Minute. And so it would be his opportunity to get out on social media and share something uh with his practice members, his community, that he called the near perfect minute. So he inspired me. I I I never say near perfect, but I say phenomenal. I called it Peter's Phenomenal Minute. I love it. And what it was was a one minute, maybe 90 second thing about something relative to chiropractic, uh personal growth, uh chiropractic practice, um like uh w w what might be I I would say something like this Dr. Peter with today's phenomenal minute. People ask me, can he hurt somebody by giving them an adjustment? So I'd ask the question, then I would give an answer to it. You know, or um you know, why should kids get adjusted? And I give an answer for it. Can can people would have a question?

SPEAKER_04 23:14

Can we do a phenomenal minute right now? Sure. Alright, um I'm gonna go I'm gonna go extreme I'm gonna go extreme on this one because I really did believe that you can get paralyzed um from from an adjustment. This was years ago, just admittedly, but here's my question. Can someone get or can someone be paralyzed as a result of chiropractic care?

SPEAKER_05 23:42

This is Dr. Peter with today's phenomenon. Can somebody become paralyzed or permanently injured through chiropractic adjustments? The god honest answer is no. If a spinal adjustment is what is being delivered, you cannot be hurt or injured. An adjustment is a very specific gentle force application to allow the body to have less nerve interference, the body is never better off with nerve interference. So if the chiropractor is delivering a spinal adjustment to allow sublications of nerve interference to be corrected, to allow better nerve supply, that is never traumatic, it is never harmful, and can only do good. Now, if the question was, can chiropractor hurt somebody? Could you drive your car into a brick wall? Could you jump out of a 50-store building? And would that hurt? Absolutely. The chiropractor would need to do something that really is not a final adjustment. But I'm gonna give you the truth. If chiropractors were hurting people, it would be reflected in their malpractice rates. The amount that I paid for malpractice insurance for millions of dollars worth of coverage was less than I paid for my auto insurance. Wow. It's one of the safest forms of health care. I have to say that's phenomenal. But realize the question that you asked me was chiropractic care. So first I needed to define for you an adjustment. I noticed final adjustment that never harms and can only do good by its definition. Yeah. Now, could a chiropractor put an inappropriate force into a person's body? Sure. Much of that would be volitional or unconscious or unethical to be to be able to do that. Could something occur that I don't think anything is possible. Sure. You know, uh a plane could land on me right now and kill me. Right. Anything, anything, anything is possible.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Right.

SPEAKER_05 25:51

But if indeed it was happening a lot, it would be reflected in our insurance rates.

SPEAKER_04 25:55

Gotcha. Alright, last one, clip three, is from my conversation with Dr. Justin Dick, who practices scoliosis care under the Clear Institute methodology. Dr. Justin holds a special place in my heart and always will. He worked with my children, both have scoliosis, as you guys know, and save them from surgery. Gotta really use his hands to get them aligned anyway. I'll be honest. With you going into this conversation, I thought I had kind of a pretty solid understanding of scoliosis, especially because of our kind of walk with our children. I knew it was a curvature, I knew it was, you know, measured in degrees, I thought it was kind of typically as shaped. Um, that was about the extent of it. I mean I knew a little bit more, but I I thought I knew, right? I I was wrong. Like, not just a little wrong, like structurally wrong. Dr. Justin takes a three-dimensional kind of biomechanics approach to scoliosis, which is actually how the condition works, right? It is three-dimensional by definition. And the way he explains what is happening in the spine using the rubber band analogy for for the torsion is the clearest explanation I have ever heard on the topic. Like, period, point blank. And then we get into bracing, which is nuanced, right? He he does not just say it worked or it does not work, he gets into which patients actually need it, why historically bracing largely failed, and what is different about the approach he uses. And there's one moment in there when he talks about the diagnosis just being a number that I think is worth the whole clip by itself. Here you go. So let's let's talk a little bit about understanding scoliosis. So, scoliosis, at least for me and and from the people I've spoken to about it, the the layman we'll call it, right? Um, it's really it's misunderstood. So, could you explain uh what it is and why uh early detection and treatment are critical? This is a great question.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Uh so scoliosis as a whole, nobody knows what it is. Yeah. As a whole, right? Uh it's measured by a side curvature on an X-ray that comes from front to back or back to front. Uh every doctor in the world knows is bad news. Every doctor knows how to measure it, but that's all you're ever taught. Some of the new surgeries, some of the new stuff that's coming in, some of the stuff that I'm doing, uh, we're starting to pinpoint more of okay, here's the biomechanics of it, and here's what's going on. Uh so my mentor, Dr. Wogan, was a biomechanics teacher, and so if it got there, his uh his objective was well, why can't we reverse engineer it? All right, so when we're looking at sceliosis itself, we'll look at the spine in three dimensions, not just from the front, not just how we measure it. This is a side effect of actually what's happening. So when we're looking at sceliosis from the side, the most important x-rays from the side, we want a good curve in our neck, a good curve where our ribs are, and a good curve in our low back. Right. 100% of sceliosis cases don't have that. Alright, so when the spine moves, almost always the spine, the each individual vertebra comes backwards and it rotates. Comes backwards and it rotates. And here's where I have issues with chiropractors. They adjust this one bone, but when they adjust one bone, they're moving essentially multiple at a time. So imagine taking your spine that you have these good curves here, and these good curves start to go away. It's not like you just grow up and out. Actually, what happens is if you take your spine and you lose the good curves, it starts to rotate and rotate and rotate and rotate. Eventually, it creates so much torsion that it comes out to the side. And that's what sceliosis is so far. Can you explain torsion? Torsion. Uh imagine taking a rubber band and stretching it and turning it and turning it and turning it and turning it. It creates so much tension in there that it has to have somewhere to go. So the the rubber band will come out to the side and come back up. So it's a rotation. So whenever you if you have a diagnosis of sceliosis and the doctor says, Oh my goodness, you have so much rotation in there, you'd be like, Well, you can't have sceliosis without it, by definition. Sceliosis is rotation.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

So somebody that doesn't understand it very well. I'd say I'd see college care somewhere else.

SPEAKER_04 30:36

Um well, let me ask you this. So my my plain understanding of scoliosis is that um it it's shaped like an S. Is that always the case? Or okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

No, say that a little. There's many different types. Sceliosis is just a measurement of 10 degrees, uh, a cob angle. That's how it's measured. Okay. So you take the curve and you take the most tilted at the top, most tilted at the bottom, and measure them together, and that's what they call the cob angle. So as long as I that cob angle could be anywhere in the body, it could be one, it could be five, could be six. They're just measuring the cob angles in there. So the curves from the fronts or from the back to the front. As long as there's uh something over 10 degrees and it's classified as sceliosis. I I want to get kind of get this right without being too nasty. Um sceliosis is just a number. If you're married to that number and you're married to that diagnosis, nobody can help you. It's just a name, it doesn't mean anything. Wow. Right? So I I I use a kind of a crude analogy. Um I mean, if you have stage four cancer, right, which is a death sentence many times. Sure. But you live a full life and you have a joyous life and it doesn't bother you, then who cares? Who cares?

unknown 32:06

Right?

SPEAKER_00 32:06

So sceliosis is a name given to anything over 10 degrees, right? But it doesn't define who you are. You can live a f full life if you treat it appropriately.

SPEAKER_04 32:16

That's so good. Don't don't I don't almost label or identify yourself as it. You have it, it's being treated. But live life despite of it.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

But that's where it ends. It doesn't define you.

SPEAKER_04 32:31

Alright. That's good. Wow, that's good. Thank you for that. Um all right. I want to talk a little bit about so so I read all right. This is controversial in my head. I read on Claire's site that uh they emphasize non-invasive care, which which I get. I get why they call it non-invasive.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Oh, here we go.

SPEAKER_04 32:59

So I've I've one, I've been adjusted by you. So um that's a little contradictory in my head. Um, no, it it is non-invasive, I get that, but it's very um trying to use a good nice word. That's a good word. We'll go with aggressive. Um, but so how does how does that differ from traditional approaches like like we'll call it surgery even um certain types of bracing like outside of the chiropractic world? Um how how does that differ? Uh like the non-invasive care question.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

So non-invasive versus invasive, uh, and the medical models, which you're the question you're actually getting at. So in a medical model, invasive is surgery, right? Or you know, any any variation of that. Um, and many times, specifically when you start getting into you know 40, 50 degree curves and they want to do surgery, you know, surgery doesn't end there. You're almost always going to have another surgery and another surgery. It's just the beginning of a a disaster. The spine's meant to move, and what surgery does is it stops it from moving. So then it has accelerated degeneration, right? So it's just a matter of time before you have your other surgery. Sure. But so what we're getting into, the discussion we're having is um is it invasive? Meaning, are we doing surgery? No, we're not doing surgery. Is it fun? Not always. Um caring. No, not ever. Uh caring our office is pretty boring as as a whole. The adjustments are very aggressive. I'm going to make changes while you're on my table for two minutes. I'm not there to make be your friend, right? There are certain adjustments that are better than others, but for two minutes, it is what it is, and then you can move on. And the pain or the soreness or whatever you have kind of goes away immediately afterwards. But we're gonna make massive changes really quickly. Right. Um, hence, you know, we can take 14 degrees off your sceliosis in 10 days. Yeah, but we make massive changes quickly. Yeah. And most of our patients are not local, so if we make those massive changes, we send them on.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

So invasive, more of a surgery route. Non-invasive is pretty much anything outside of that. So adjustments or bracing, those are classified as non-invasives, even though they are aggressive. Um, and you'll probably attest to them, probably the most aggressive adjustment you've had. And I'm probably the most aggressive anywhere close to us as far as state-wise.

SPEAKER_04 35:30

Yeah. Now I know the answer to this, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. Do you still recommend bracing or do you recommend bracing? Well, and what type of bracing in certain cases or in all cases for your sceliosis patients?

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Uh, you know, when you're getting into sceliosis, uh, we need to start classifying a uh the risk of progression. Right? So you and me were done growing. If we have sceliosis and we'll just say it's at 15 degrees, it's pretty much gonna stay stable for the most part. Unless something happens, it's gonna be stable. Versus uh if we have a young kid that has still a ton of growing yet to do, and we can get into the the science of that, but we'll just say they have a ton of growing yet to do, um, and they have a relatively progressive sceliosis, meaning it's gonna be 20, 30 plus degrees. That's going to require more action, more aggression. So we while we could do the clear institute cares, we could take you know 10, 15 degrees, 20 degrees off your sceliosis, whatever, however the body reacts. The brace is going to be like taking me home every day. And so it's going to be more aggressive. Now, historically, braces don't work. Right? This is why my mentor didn't like them. Historically, they don't work, they at best stabilize things because they're created in a two-dimensional form. Uh, the brace that I use in the office, uh, it took me years to get involved and years for them to prove to me it worked. Right. It works pretty well. Yeah. As you can attest, it works pretty well as long as we're using it, it works. It works in three dimensions. Like sceliosis is a three-dimensional diagnosis. So that's where we get into kind of more of a bracing. Um, do we we want to use those with the aggressive sceliosis, right?

SPEAKER_04 37:15

So if somebody comes in and they're at a 15-degree curve and there we'll call them 14 years old, they obviously have some growing to to do. Uh, would you recommend a brace in that situation? Probably not.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Okay. Probably not, right? Because at 14 years old, whether you're male or female, you're almost done growing based on their x-rays. You can look at their wrist or you can look at their hips, depending on which kind of doctor you are. Uh, but they're getting close to being done, and 15 degrees really isn't that bad in the scheme of things. If we get into the math, it's not really that bad. Right. Um, when you start getting above 30 degrees, then you're like, okay, we need to really do something about this soon.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Um, and there's some different doctors, even clear doctors, that will kind of dispute what I'm saying right now. But as a whole, we both will all agree that it's not uh very likely for it to progress. But there's more doctors that will say, hey, let's just throw everything at it, even if it's 15 degrees and take it down to two, and then when you're done growing, it's relatively stable at two degrees.

SPEAKER_04 38:14

Three conversations, three completely different corners of this profession, but here's what I think connects them. Dr. Daniel is talking about how you show up for your patient, not just technically, but in how you make them feel understood and certain about their care. The adjustment is only as good as the trust that surrounds it. Dr. Peter is talking about the patience and humility of patients, and humility that real mastery actually requires. Nine months just to begin feeling a, again, what he calls a neural and also nine months of showing up and not quite getting it yet and showing up again, that is what the work actually asked for. And Dr. Justice asked us not to get back to asking after the first and first because audio is not who you are, it's something. And it is something that is what the show has always tried to get, right? It's not just about the adjustments, it's about the approach. Everything that makes the adjustment beyond the road, right? Beyond adjustments, we are coming back. We are getting everything stored up with a wonderful new graphic and video editing. Now, just about the job, childhood statements, thank you. And there are some conversations in the pipeline that I am genuinely excited to bring in. They're good, right? In the meantime, go back, listen to the full episode. There is a lot more content in each of them. I'm Amin Said. Thank you for being here. We will see you in the next one.