On the Blue Ridge
On the Blue Ridge features conversations with people shaping the Blue Ridge Mountains. Hosted by Asheville-based journalist Jon Page, the show explores the ideas, creativity, and vision driving Western North Carolina forward.
Through long-form interviews and on-location storytelling, each episode captures the evolving story of these mountains. The conversations focus on people doing meaningful and inspiring work across the region, from conservation and outdoor recreation to the arts, agriculture, food and beverage, entrepreneurship, and beyond.
On the Blue Ridge
Lang Hornthal of EcoForesters on the Future of Our Forests
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Lang Hornthal is the Executive Director of EcoForesters, an Asheville-based nonprofit professional forestry organization dedicated to conserving and restoring Appalachian forests through education and stewardship.
In this episode, Lang discusses the organization’s work and how the aftermath of Hurricane Helene has reshaped the forests around us, and the way EcoForesters approaches its mission.
Lang also zooms out to talk about forestry more broadly, and his own path into this work, from running a rustic furniture company to graduate school, where he became fascinated by a simple question: why do so few private landowners have a forest management plan, and what would it take to change that?
EcoForesters
ecoforesters.org
Theme Music
The song "Goa" was written by Lyndsay Pruett and performed by the Jon Stickley Trio.
Sustainability always calls us to be hopeful. It wants us to be intentional in what we're doing now because we don't want to mess up the opportunity for those later. And we want them to have the same opportunity that we have right now. And so there's always hope that we will do that. I mean, clearly we don't always do it very well. So I think there's hope in how we can be more intentional about our actions.
SPEAKER_00Today, on the Blue Ridge, our guest is Lang Hornthal, the Executive Director of Ecoforesters, an Asheville-based nonprofit professional forestry organization dedicated to conserving and restoring Appalachian forest through education and stewardship. I'm your host, John Page. Let's begin. On a recent frigid morning, I met Lang at Ecoforester's office in Asheville. We talked about the organization's work and how the aftermath of Hurricane Helene has reshaped the forest around us and the way Ecoforesters approaches its mission. We also zoomed out to talk about forestry more broadly and Lang's own path into his work. From running a rustic furniture company to graduate school, where he became fascinated by a simple question. Why do so few private landowners have a forest management plan? And what would it take to change that? You see, across the country, forest ownership looks very different depending on where you are. Nationally, forests are split more evenly between public and private land. But here in the southeast, and especially in North Carolina, roughly four out of every five acres of forest are privately owned. That can feel surprising in Western North Carolina, where iconic public lands like Pisgah National Forest and Nanahela National Forest loom so large in our imagination. But even here, much of the forested landscape sits beyond park boundaries in the hands of families and individuals. And that really changes the conversation. Because when most forests are private, but the benefits like fresh air and clean water are shared by all of us, the question becomes not just who owns the forest, but who takes care of it. With that in mind, I asked Lang why forestry and forest management is so important to him and why it should matter to anyone living in this region, whether they own land or not.
SPEAKER_01I think it matters to me personally for several reasons. The obvious one is probably why most people uh enjoy forests, and that's to feel that connection uh to nature. Um when you're in nature, you feel better. You're in awe, you see the animals and all the little micro ecosystems that we um either often miss or don't pay attention to, um, in addition to all the benefits that we get from nature, clean air, clean water, carbon sequestration. Um another is my woodworking background, which I think we'll get to um a little later, but uh working with wood is different from a lot of other mediums and that it still has living properties even after uh a tree becomes a board. Um it takes up and uh releases moisture, it twists and turns and cracks. It's almost like it's trying to remind us that uh it is special. Um so my days of running a woodworking shop um taught me about supply change and and sourcing different species and working with the people that do this hard and sometimes dangerous work. Um lastly, my background in sustainability uh really led me to this moment in time. Um, the fact that until really 20 or so years ago, um we didn't really begin to acknowledge that our past use has really damaged what we see here today from a forest perspective and forest health. Um and so sustainability charges us to be more intentional in our planning and our actions, um which is what we are asking private landowners to do.
SPEAKER_00When when you think about what uh like just the general population thinks about forestry, uh what do you think they usually picture in terms of kind of like a definition and and what do you wish they understood?
SPEAKER_01You're asking me to speak for a lot of people. Um so I think you know there's a natural aversion to trees getting cut down. And I so I think forestry is mostly considered that last thing you do before a tree is cut down, um, as opposed to all of the of the planning and stewardship and management that that uh goes into the the lifespan of a tree, and forestry you know unfolds over decades. So I think that inherently makes it harder for people who understand the um the concept. So I think generally it is the practice of cutting down trees, would be my guess as to what people think it means.
SPEAKER_00I mean I I ask people and you know get a range of things from people not even thinking about that and just kind of thinking about like protecting the forest, which is why it's the the reality that yeah, we're sitting here at a wood desk and most people listening to this are in a wood house or they're on their way to something made of wood. Um and kind of realizing that there is this, like there's this big balance between oh no, you can't cut down the trees, but also like we need these things.
SPEAKER_01Right. We're asking for all the things that that it provides us. Yeah, that's a good point. And I think that might be the wishful thinking that people have, and that um and and please don't that for those listening, uh uh not to paint forestry in a negative light, but the reality of it is it was created, it was brought, the practices were brought over from Europe, and and we as a country decided we needed to manage this resource so we could always have it available to use for all those things that you mentioned. So the focus was always from a forest health perspective, it was to improve yield rather than um protect forests. Understanding past land use, I mean it's easy to go, we're here because of greed. Well, sure. Greed is a contributing factor to everything, but we're here because of how we use the land and what uh the uh what uh uh we needed in that particular time. But what we did then is what has caused us to be where we are right now, and I think that helps make the connection for well, so that means what you are doing now is going to impact what's gonna be happening when people are having this conversation fifty, a hundred years from now. Um and so making people aware of of things that they can easily do themselves, um, whether they're a forest landowner or not.
SPEAKER_00But as we think about protecting forests, and we think about our forests around here in western North Carolina, uh to you, what what makes them so special?
SPEAKER_01Well, there, I mean, you think of from a just a natural resource perspective and what we use to create all the things we rely on, all the things we build. You've got wood, you've got plastic, you've got cement, you've got steel. And just looking at those four things, the uh the energy that it takes to create those products or the mining and the destruction, um, forestry is the least um the least destructive of those uh forces. There's certainly less soil disturbance that is required for a lot of those, the mining that goes into the others. Um, but it's also a renewable resource. It's something that if if if um planned for properly, we can utilize now and then prepare a path for it, it, the ability for it to be utilized 20, 30 years from now. Um so I think the fact that it's renewable and it also offers all these intangible benefits that we take for granted that it has been doing forever. The oxygen that we breathe, um, the clean water that we drink, um the wildlife habitat, carbon sequestration, all these what's known as ecosystem services that Healthy Forests have been providing for us for free for a very long time makes it much special than a lot of the other uh resources that we utilize as humans.
SPEAKER_00Um I'm I'm curious, just as a a very amateur woodworker, um someone who I've got uh a book at home right now that's uh Little Woodchucks by Nick Offerman that's about like working with wood with your your little kids, like getting kids excited about it. And I've got a couple of a couple of projects around the house, like a built-in wall that I'm about to start. Uh how can I as an amateur woodworker um help support sustainable forestry and in what I'm doing?
SPEAKER_01Where wood is sourced from, um, I I think would would would be one way. I mean, we don't have the choices that we once had when there were more mills around, um, and there were more certification programs to where if you bought um FSC certified wood, you knew that it was being managed a certain way, and the process from how the trees were grown to when they were cut down, they were following a certain standard that you could feel good about. So there's less of being able to use certified wood because of of the decline in in um in forest products that we've seen. Um, I I think uh part of what we do at Ecoforesters is we want people to be to hold those special qualities, those ecosystem services that we've taken for granted a little more closely, and that maybe to be more often reminded that these things are happening whether or we are aware of them or not, and that we often take them for granted. Because I think when you are reminded of that and are are thoughtful and appreciative that these things are there, I think it will help you consider. Well, maybe I won't um see if I can cut down a tree in order to create wood to build. Maybe I'll use reclaim materials, something that's already here, or I will seek out um storm-damaged uh materials. Um but I I think being appreciative of the wood you're using and how special it is will probably lend a hand in in keeping that um appreciation for for all the good things would give us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so speaking of of woodworking, you uh prior to to your work here with Ecoforesters, you were running a rustic furniture operation. How did that business begin and and what all were you making?
SPEAKER_01Well, uh we were a custom shop, and uh so everything we created was made to order. And when you're a custom shop, it also makes it easy for uh evolving the things that you're building because people will come and ask you to build some neat things sometimes. Um we lent ourselves and kind of held ourselves out as a rustic shop and sort of catered to second homes, lake homes mountain homes, which are traditionally decorated in a rustic fashion. There was a big log home boom in the 90s and early 2000s that we were fortunate to be a part of. And so we used a lot of um small diameter hole logs that were hand-peeled. We used native materials like rhododendron and mountain laurel that would allow you to do some really creative things. We also used a lot of reclaim material, which was a um uh a sought-after um way of using beautiful wood, but um also, to my earlier point, being able to recycle something rather than using newer wood. So we built everything from furniture to um stairs and stair railings and mantelpieces and and um really all the the different rustic um uh architectural elements that you might find in a mountain home. And and was that something you'd always wanted to do? Did you just kind of uh slide into that? Uh that is very well put. I I've got a um uh degree in biology. Um I graduated in a very soft job market and was having a hard time finding something that I was interested in doing. Um I had a good friend who uh had lived out in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, and learned how to build log beds while he was out there. So he and I together decided we were gonna build a bed and um we were living in Raleigh at the time and we set it up at a flea market and sold it and got an order for another one and just kind of went from there. Oh wow, from what from one bed, okay. From one bed, yeah. So it was, you know, in in woodworking, if you're you're either gonna um sell directly to the public, be more of a retailer, or you're gonna be a wholesaler and sell to people that are gonna resell your stuff, and that's just two different manufacturing um uh processes, and so you really have to decide, and and custom work doing wholesale is also very tough because there's an expectation that there's it'll be less and that someone can put a mark on it. So we were sort of retail direct and were selling furniture all over the country. Um and then what what uh precipitated the move from Raleigh to So for from doing log home shows and from who we were selling to, we realized we needed to be in a uh a mountain type community where there were lots of second homes being built. So wanting to stay in North Carolina, I looked up around Boone and I looked to Asheville. Um at this time my my then partner Roger decided uh that law school was in his future, so he decided to go back to school and um I took the business and moved it to Asheville in 1997.
SPEAKER_00And and how did woodworking and also running that business uh shape or or change the way that you think about forests?
SPEAKER_01So uh you know, it was an interesting time, you know, the 90s and early 2000s, it was just the heyday for building and the housing bubble that ultimately came to an end, we sort of rode that out. And um and so it be made me become and and this was when the internet was first starting. You know, we had a website in 1993 when it was a new and unique thing, and you started to become aware that you could sell to anywhere in in in the country or world with this, but also the people you were trying to sell to were also looking at places, so it was no longer the local furniture store who you were competing with, you were competing with everybody. Um that awareness also made me pay more attention to what was happening in uh, you know, we lived basically in the did live in the furniture capital of the world, and high point in Hickory was where most of that furniture was being built. Um every fall and spring we would go to the high point furniture market. Um, and we were starting to see some decline uh in um what was being built here. Um we were, you know, you start to see where offshoring of manufacturing was starting to become a real thing. And so um where I first noticed it was the perceived value of what something should cost. You know, we were building custom um uh dressers, and I don't know if you've ever built haste goods or drawers before, but you know, you need to build them structurally sound and they take time.
SPEAKER_00That's that's a little advanced for me right now. You'll get there.
SPEAKER_01You'll get there. Um but we would have a lot of time in in these pieces and would maybe charge three, four thousand dollars for a dresser, and then you'd have somebody come and say, Wow, I can get that at Rooms2Go for eight hundred dollars. And so there's a perceived value that that is what it should cost. And so we were always educating people about, well, just because some people somewhere in the world are able to build it for that, that doesn't mean what it that's what it should cost. So I was becoming more aware of of uh where furniture was coming from, and then you started to see it from uh I started thinking about it from a standpoint of supply chain. And um even you know, Hickory and High Point had access to all these amazing hardwoods that were right here where we are now. Um, but now global manufacturers also had access to these materials if they were just were willing to ship them um uh uh to where they were, and we found out that it was not unusual to ship container loads worth of um Appalachian hardwoods over to China to build furniture and then ship it back here to the United States.
SPEAKER_00Is that kind of what uh motivated you to to go to grad school? Is is was or was there what like one specific thing?
SPEAKER_01So um if I had to pick one specific thing, it would it would be the housing bubble and the downturn in 07-08. You know, we were going gangbusters and then it just the rug was swept out from under us and um it and we were you know struggling uh to make do and to figure out what the new normal was. And we were fortunate that the federal government saw the merit in supporting manufacturing businesses through this downturn. And um and so through the American uh recovery and reinvestment act, they uh supplied some forest product-based businesses and other businesses, I think, um, with um grants to help them keep their um staff during this hard time. And there's also a component of thinking about when you come out the other side and what that is gonna look like. And so at the at the time we also had a concentration yard, which is a way to bring in materials that we're not only gonna use, but that we would also sell the raw materials to the public that wanted to do it themselves. Um and so we were thinking a lot more about supply chain and where's this material coming from and how is it managed. Um about the same time, um there's a a local group called the Appalachian Sustainable Agricultural Project, or ASAP, and they work, they support um farming supply chains and local farms and farmers, and they are always calling attention to the importance by local. And um and so I became curious as if something similarly could be done from a forest product supply chain and sustainable forestry perspective. And so with some of the grant funding we received, I started a small nonprofit called Root Cause. And the idea was to look at that sustainable forestry supply chain and uh see if we could create a directory that could help connect the public to help them not only buy local furniture or local um building materials, but also to be more aware of that entire chain from the landowner who owns the forest to the forester who helps and maintain it all the way to it becoming a table in a store somewhere. So that was my first. Um I found my energy gravitating more towards root cause than my woodworking. And so at that point I decided I was going to sell my business and go back to school. Um I landed on a master's program through the Norrine. Um, they have a uh a campus here in Asheville, and it was in sustainability studies, and so I decided to pursue a master's through the lens of forestry. So that meant you know, just the sustainability degree is a very diversity of classes. So everything from uh ecological economics to communicating science, I thought about it through the lens of forestry. Um and unbeknownst to me sort of preparing me for where I am right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so what what was that like that thesis or that capstone project that you worked on in a nutshell?
SPEAKER_01In a nutshell, it's uh why are there so few private landowners that have a forest management plan? I think at the time nationally it was maybe five percent. Um and what can be done to improve that statistic? So I I looked at um HEARE Networks, the uh the extension, North Carolina Extension Office, and everyone's heard of the Master Gardener program, which has been very successful as a way to Connecting people to education around gardening, but also to help them further their education and so they can be lawful lifelong gardeners. And so I looked into if peer programming similar to that would be successful and ultimately how can we increase the number of forest management plans that were being offered to private landowners?
SPEAKER_00Aaron Powell And when you talk about a forest management plan, like what what is that in practice? Is that just uh like what does that actually look like on on paper, you know?
SPEAKER_01You know, I I'm not a forester. I want to be very quick to point that out, but as um in layman's terms, it it is what it suggests, it's a plan. I like to make the sort of the um analogy of if you go to the grocery store without a grocery list, you're probably gonna buy a bunch of stuff that you don't need, you're gonna forget some stuff you really did need, and it's gonna be unproductive. Um so things are always better with with the plan, just makes your decision making more intentional. And so a forest management plan is a way to go in and look at, let's say if you have a 40 acres of forest, to go in and look at that forest, um, to have an understanding of what most likely happened there um over the past a hundred years, um, what is currently there, um, what are some um and and this is all through the lens of landowner's value. Um this is we begin the process by understanding why the landowner even owns a forest and how they utilize it. And so we want to make sure the plan is written in respect of that value. So whatever it is they um that we are suggested could be done to improve forest health or resiliency is also gonna lift that value up.
SPEAKER_00You do that program and then like over on the side, I guess Ecoforesters is starting up, right? So how how did how did the the paths merge for you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so ecoforesters had started up in 2015, and um Root Calls had actually had some um some connection with Ecoforesters uh prior to me going back to school. It might have been when I was in the midst of going back to school. Um one of the things Root Calls would do is to give out awards each year, sort of acknowledging the um good things that are happening in the forest that we wanted to call attention to. Um and and that would serve as a way to not only lift someone up who was doing something really cool, but also a way to use that as a way to um call attention to something important about sustainable forestry. And we actually gave ecoforesters an award for the work that they were doing. So that was probably our first introduction to each other. Um Ecoforesters started in 2015 when uh founder, a guy by the name of Rob Lamb, he saw a growing need to help private landowners manage their forest. Um they started with a group called forest stewards, who were um Western Carolina-based and um and that had more of a research focused and was geared towards helping students uh enter the working world of natural resources. And while Rob was there, he saw this need at a more regional level and was interested in expanding some of the services that were being offered to help private landowners. Um and ultimately Western was happy with the program that they had and wasn't interested in expanding, so that's when he left and expanded and saw started Ecoforesters.
SPEAKER_00And so so yeah, uh 10 years last year. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Uh when when you meet somebody who's not familiar with your work, like how do you how do you describe ecoforesters to them and and and what makes you all unique?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think what makes us unique is that we are professional forestry nonprofit. And so we are not only advocating for some things that are very important, we're not only educating the public about forestry and the reality of what's happening in our forests and the challenges that we're facing, but we are also boots on the ground. We are doing the work that we are asking others to do and what we're helping them to do that work because um there's there are a number of reasons as to why the work is not being done. Um it's usually uh it could be a financial issue, but it could also just be understanding what needs to be done. There are lots of people who who can do these things themselves if they're shown how to do it. So education and training and just um a a more nuanced understanding of forestry and some of the challenges that we're facing.
SPEAKER_00What what are some of the examples of of of doing that work? I know you mentioned before the like some sometimes it can be as simple as as going out and showing somebody where the invasive species are on their land and and how to how to tackle those. Um so I assume it's it's a lot of that, but what are some other examples too?
SPEAKER_01So I like to think in my n non-forester way, as forestry as as the management of light. Um it is pretty simple. Uh nature is is is is huff but also is aggressive and there um most plants are seeking light. And whenever there is um and in a forest, it's uh it's a race to the top, because once you can get to the top and spread out your crown, then you are assuring yourself that you are always gonna have food, sunlight, um, but you end up denying your competitors that same light. So once things are shaded out, then it's a waiting game. And so um until there's a disturbance of some kind, and that disturbance is either going to be created by Helene or weather or or it's gonna be um a man-made disturbance where you might cut down a tree um in order to um whether it's you know, because you want to mill the lumber uh or for firewood, um, and then you are creating that opportunity for nature. And so I think it's important for people to sort of appreciate that because it makes you look at a forest a little differently, particularly when you're in one. Um the forests in western North Carolina are very we consider them to be middle-aged, and that was as uh because of how the forests were managed um hundreds of years ago, and there was a uh um almost over 85% of the region was clear-cut in the late 1800s, early 1900s. And that reality kind of shocked uh leaders into we have to do better than that. It it actually was had had the positive being the creation of a lot of public land, including the Pesgo and Anahala National Forest and Great Smoky National Park. So everything was clear-cut, so everything that began growing back was the same age. We also like to share that diversity equals resiliency, and that means diversity of structure, diversity of species, and so what we see now is not very diverse of structure and of age class because of them all growing at the same time. So even though our forests are beautiful and we see this awesome closed canopy throughout, um, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's how it should be. Invasive plants are a good place to start with getting people to think about the health of nature. We have an expression here, just because it's green doesn't mean it's healthy. And so that that gets to the planning, and and another part of our our our planning is understanding what is in your forest and what is there, what should be there, um, and what you can do about it. And I think it starts with just educating yourself what some of those invasive plants are and what what their threat is to other species that we also really love to see here.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell And it's not just kudzu, like what are some of the the examples of the the the other big ones that are out there?
SPEAKER_01So there's um Oriental Bittersweet, there's multifloral roads, there's Tree of Heaven, there's Chinese silvergrass, just to name a few, there are a lot of bad actors that grow very aggressively. You know, everything grows really easily in Western North Carolina. We live in a a temperate rainforest. Um having that a heightened sense of awareness of what is growing and what's around you is gonna help you appreciate what the future conditions are gonna look like and whether or not we want those to be the conditions. Um and so um because again, remember, forestry unfolds over decades. So a lot of time um the last thing you want is ten years from now uh to say, oh, we we should have planned better, we should have done something then. We're asking people to do something now, and that really begins by just educating yourself about what some of these invasive plants are.
SPEAKER_00Aaron Ross Powell How how many people are working for ecoforesters? Uh, and you know, what's what's kind of like an average day here, like uh at the office, and then also out in the field?
SPEAKER_01Well, as you saw when you got here, an average day usually includes a minimum of three dogs. This was a light day, I think uh we have on average five or six in the main office, so we are very dog-friendly. So Ecoforesters currently has 24 employees. Um the majority, about 13 or 14 of them, make up our stewardship crew. These are our field crews, again, that are in, out in the woods, um uh controlling invasive plants, uh, um opening up access from Helene, um, uh planting trees, uh, doing forest and improvement work, doing the work that we are laying out in our forest management plans that need to be done if we are expect healthy forests. We then have uh forestry staff that are made up of professional foresters and forestry associates, and these are the uh the staff that are going out and meeting with private landowners, writing forest management plans, helping put in in into practice the things that we would like uh forest landowners to do. Um the rest of our staff is made up of our outreach and education department and um how we go about um getting information uh into people's hands. Um we've got a great, a very creative bunch in that um holding people's attention is tough, and finding ways to make it personal uh for them to be thinking about maybe the legacy they're gonna leave their kids requires some creativity. So we have staff that are always working, how to put on a workshop that's gonna be effective and draw people in, how to do a social media post that's going to get someone's attention and actually make them think a little bit more about forestry. Um and that's what our outreach and education uh staff do.
SPEAKER_00Does the fact that we're in the cradle of forestry help at all?
SPEAKER_01Yes and no. You know, I think our uh our forestry history um can also remind people of some of the things we did wrong. Um and we won we want to focus on the things that we did right and and need to do better. Um so I I think it it's it's help it's helpful in terms of um helping people appreciate the important role forests have played in our region. Um if you think about it from an economic development standpoint, from um it sustained us through manufacturing and forest products for a a long time. Um it's now sort of the setting for uh outdoor recreation that is experiencing a a big boom here. And you know, having this healthy forested infrastructure that can handle the hikers and bikers and people that are here. So it it's a good reminder of how important forests are to our region and hopefully what while we want to keep them forest forested and healthy.
SPEAKER_00And going back to the work, um it seems like the Sandy Mush Forest Restoration Project is a kind of a good microcosm of the work that you all do. Um give me a brief overview of of that, the the the area, the the project itself, and and its progress.
SPEAKER_01Sure. So Sandy Mush is located in sort of northwestern Bunkham County. Um also spills into some of Haywood and Madison County. Um this is a uh back in the day it was very uh agriculturally centric in which they were growing tobacco and they had lots of of cattle and other other um animals that they were raising, like so many rural communities did, was a big agricultural community. And when the economy shifted away from agriculture, many of these fields and pastures were abandoned and reforested. You know, remember things grow really easy here, and if you have a field and you do nothing to it, it will become a forest eventually. Um, because of the timing and the fact that this is when a lot of invasive plants were were brought to the United States and brought to our region, um, when these forests, forests started growing naturally, uh invasives were also present. And so this community had had some really severe non-native invasive plant populations. Also had some really high conservation values, not only for the the um rich soils that sustained agriculture, but it was beautiful. And um and so there's uh state game land, the Sandy Mush Game Land is out there. Um there's also a lot of uh conservation land that has been permanently protected by local land trust, Southern Appalachian Highland Conservancy. And so we saw a community that was shifting in use away from agriculture, that had high conservation values, that had real threats to their forest and invasive plants, and we said, you know, it's gonna be hard for us to make a difference on a landscape scale if we are just reaching one landowner at a time. So how do we engage a whole community uh around sustainable forestry? And so we looked to Sandy Mush and um we uh met with some of the the uh leaders in Sandy Mush and and talked about how we can come out and and and um form a relationship with the community in order to share information, to bring resources, and hopefully create a model for how you could do this in other areas of Western North Carolina. And uh it's how many years in now? So the Sandy Mush, we officially started it in 2020 and we're had some really great momentum going. It uh and then COVID happened, which of course really cut back on the number of in-person events that we could do, but we had experienced enough that we felt comfortable in expanding this model. And um we went to the um U.S. Department of Agriculture who had a grant program called the Landscape Scale Restoration Program, and they look at projects throughout the country. Ours was in the southeast, and um projects that are supportive of the North Carolina Forest Action Plan. Um each state has a forest action plan that they update every 10 years or so that is like a larger forest management plan. It it um highlights how many millions of acres of forest we have, their makeup, how they're used, what the threats are, and what's being done uh uh to be a better steward of the on a state uh level. And so we wrote a proposal that would not only expand the footprint of Sandy Mush, uh, but also could go into two other areas, one west of here that was centered around Jackson, Swain counties in the koala boundary, and then east of here in the foothills, which was McDowell and Burke and Rutherford in that area, both had similarities, high conservation values, um, similar development pressures, and some of the same things that forest landowners are going through. And it allowed us to expand the project um for uh to over 900,000 acres uh for three years. Um and that project we completed uh in last year.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Uh you mentioned COVID. We've obvious obviously mentioned Helene too. Uh Helene comes along. Uh uh how how has that impacted the the work of ecoforesters so far?
SPEAKER_01I'm glad you said so far. Because we are not done. Um this event will uh most likely be the driving force for the next 10 plus years, probably my remaining time at ecoforesters, and I'm not going anywhere. Um Yeah, the biggest thing was for Helena's this has never happened before. I mean, over 800,000 acres were disturbed over 16, 18 counties. So that amount of trees on the ground, I think they said Mitchell County, over half the trees were on the ground. I mean, and it'd be one thing if we had a vibrant forest product and we had mills everywhere and we still had a paper mill in Canton, we might say, well, it stinks that these trees are on the ground, but we're gonna take them and and send them off to the mill and the landowners is gonna are gonna get paid and these products are gonna continue to get made. But not only do we not have the infrastructure in place to use these trees, in many cases they were inaccessible. A lot of this damage, particularly in Yancey and Mitchell County, happened on these steep slopes where accessing these trees to get them out would not be economically feasible, because remember, for it to work, the logger or person removing the tree had have to be compensated fairly for their time. And if mills aren't buying or it takes you added hours in order to get the trees out, then you're gonna choose not to do it. Um and so we had all this material that was down. What does that mean? Um so obviously wildfire was um a big impact, and and interesting enough, in the spring when we had our first big wildfire season after Helene, the material on the ground um it was less about it making the fires more intense and more about access into the forest. Um, whenever there's a fire, um all the amazing people who are are here to fight those fires mobilize, see where the fire is, and they figure out how can we go in and utilize either existing fire lines or create fire lines in order to put this fire out. Um because of the access issues, and there were just jumbles of trees everywhere, as everyone has seen, they were unable to get in. So instead of there being a one-acre fire that was contained, they had to pull back and create fire lines farther out. So suddenly it was a 15 to 20 acre uh wildfire. Um so that was um so fire is gonna continue to be a challenge and how we mitigate that. And um, you know, if there's a positive that came out of Helene, is awareness is at an all-time high. People are more aware of the potential for wildfire, um, of what is growing or or laying on the ground in their property, and they want to know what they can do about it. So we have a real opportunity here to engage people about what they can do, how can they plan, not only plan for whatever that future event could be, but what can I do to make my forest healthier and more resilient so when it does happen, um they'll be in a uh better position. What we saw with the people that were treating their invasive plants before the storm and had disturbance are in a much better position now than the people who were doing nothing and had the disturbance. Because if you weren't treating your plants then and suddenly you have sunlight on the floor, you're gonna have an explosion of invasive plant populations.
SPEAKER_00So the moral again is that it pays to have a plan?
SPEAKER_01Always. Planning is always going to help. Um the fact that you're often planning for 10 plus years, think about is there anything else other than your kids' uh college education, maybe that you're thinking about that far in advance? And it's we've become such a short attention span society, looking at our phones, thinking about what's going to happen in the next five minutes. Who has time for 10 years? So it's an easy thing to get put off.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. What well are are there other projects that you all have coming up in in those next 10 years uh that that you're able to talk about, want to talk about, or just what it what excites you uh about the the next step? We've talked about a lot of challenges, but what what excites you?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I think um that engagement and awareness I think excites me the most because prior to Helene, we spent a lot of effort just trying to get people's attention and to think about these things that unfold over decades and why it's important. So when I think about uh opportunity for that engagement, opportunity for Planning, having someone's attention goes a long way to starting that process. So I think we're going to be in a position. Um, I'll give you a great example. Um, the North Carolina Forest Service received block grant funding. There's they're going to be um unrolling our timber loss recovery program. And this is gonna be funding for landowners who lost a lot of rip potential revenue through this storm. And it's not gonna make them whole, but it's gonna be just one thing as a way to help them recover, hopefully put some funding in their pocket to do some of the things they need to do to restore their forest health. When that program rolls out, we're planning a series of landowner workshops that will help get people signed up for that program, but also educate them about the timber loss recovery program. Well, while we have their attention about this great program that's actually going to put money in their hands as opposed to asking them to spend money, we can also talk about wildfire mitigation. We can also talk about invasive species control and some of the challenges. And um we think about landowner engagement moving someone down a spectrum. They're on a journey, and we're trying to make sure that they maintain momentum and they just take that next step. So there's going to be a great opportunity for landowners to take a lot of steps in the coming years because of the awareness.
SPEAKER_00What are some ways that uh that that folks can help ecoforesters?
SPEAKER_01Awareness after Helene is at an all-time high. And when we are continue to be amazed at the level of engagement, so that's fantastic. But we really need to keep that momentum going. So we'll be doing more educational events this year uh uh that will share information and keep people engaged. Please come out. If you're if you're a landowner, great. If you're not a landowner, you just want to learn more about this. We encourage people to come to our events. Um you can also learn more about non-native invasive species. Um there are plenty of people who weed their garden or weed around their house and are appreciating the need to get out the things that aren't supposed to be here, learning more about them, how to identify them, how to pull them when you see them, get a plan. Yes, it might ruin your hike when you're now out in the woods and that's all you can see, but having an army of dedicated people that can help keep these growing uh populations in check is important. Um so remember they are spreading by animals as well as disturbance events, so controlling them in your backyard can actually help forests uh very far away. So that's another way. Um I'd mentioned wildfire mitigation earlier, so consider becoming Firewise. There's a program called Firewise that that it uh helps people think about their house and property, where it's located, what's growing around you, and how you can reduce your risk should there be a fire. Um, and that there's some great groups out there that will actually come and give you an assessment of things that you can should consider or work on. I think North Carolina is one of the largest populations of people that live in the wildland urban interface or known as the wooy. And this is basically people wanting to live very close to nature, which is such a special treat, but also increases your risk of if should there be a fire. So um considering becoming firewise is a good way for you to continue uh to live where you live, uh, but to be a little smarter. Um another thing I would say is is tell your elected officials to properly fund our state agencies that are responsible for the management of our public and private lands. Um budgets and staffings have been have been decimated, so they need our help. Um, the economic prosperity of the region and the legacy we leave our children and grandchildren depend on it. So speak up. Um and uh lastly, I'd be remiss if I didn't say support ecoforesters and other nonprofits and conservation efforts. Um conservation is a team sport, uh, and and conservation nonprofits are often picking up the slack that is caused by the underfunded agencies. Um so the solution to all a lot of these problems is going to take funding, so please consider supporting us.
SPEAKER_00When when you think about everything that this area has been through uh since Helene, what gives you hope right now for for Western North Carolina for the the Blue Ridge Mountains?
SPEAKER_01Sustainability always calls us to be uh hopeful. Um it wants us to be in intentional in what we're doing now because we don't want to mess up the opportunity for those later. And we want them to have the same opportunity that we have right now. And so there's always hope that we will do that. I mean, clearly we don't always do it very well. Um so I I think there's hope in how we can be more intentional about our actions. Um we are seeing firsthand right now the impacts humans have had in this region on our forests over the past, what do we can make to celebrate our 250th year? Um those impacts can also be positive. We have a say-so and a choice in what impact we have while we are here, and I'm hopeful that we can make that a positive impact.
SPEAKER_00That's all for today. Thanks again to Lang Hornthal for joining me. You can learn more about the work of Ecoforesters at Ecoforesters.org. You can also find them on Facebook and Instagram where they're at Ecoforesters. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow or subscribe wherever you listen. Consider leaving a rating and a quick review, or share it with a friend. It really helps more people find the show. You can find On the Blue Ridge on Instagram at OnTheBlue Ridge and online at on the blueridgepod.com. Our theme music is the song Goa, written by Lindsay Pruitt and performed by the John Stickley Trio. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you next time on the Blue Ridge.