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Raft of Bitches
A podcast about women supporting women. Like otters.
Raft of Bitches
Kate Kirwin – Every single person turned and stared at me
Kate is an unapologetic feminist. She is the Founder and CEO of She Codes Australia, on a mission to inspire 100,000 women across the country to enter tech careers.
Kate’s work is closing the gender gap in tech, where only 30 per cent of employees are women. Her achievements have been recognised with the Business News 40 Under 40 Award and a Women in Digital Champion of Change award. She was recently named as WA's 2024 Young Australian of the Year.
Join us as we discuss the challenges faced by women entering the tech industry, and how we can be part of the solution.
Kate is on a mission to impact 100,000 women by 2025.
If you or your organisation is interested in meaningfully moving the needle for diversity, partner with one of Australia’s most loved women-in-tech brands, and attract incredible talent for your tech team at the same time - get in touch.
For centuries we've been told that women are each other's worst enemies, but in reality we're more like otters than queen bees. Female otters, bitches if you will, join hands with each other to create rafts that stop them from drifting apart and losing each other while they're asleep. Thriving women have one thing in common. They have a tight-knit circle of other women who help them get there by providing information and support. Join us each episode as we shine a light on an amazing woman and give her a platform to share with us her story, her passion and the raft of bitches supporting her.
Jo Minney:Welcome to the Raft of Bitches podcast. I'm here today with my co-host, Ricki Barnes. And when we first started planning out this podcast, we discussed introducing each other with a fun fact. So Ricki, would you like to hear my fun fact about you? I
Ricki Barnes:would love to hear it. Ricki's pet peeve is the ageism of dinosaur clothing. 100%. So ageist. My fun fact about you, Jo, is that you're obsessed with pockets to the point that you have a blog on your own website that will teach people how to sew pockets into their own clothing. It
Jo Minney:is the most important life skill that my mum ever taught me.
Ricki Barnes:And joining us today as our very first guest, we have Kate Kirwin. So as you'll be aware and you'll become more aware of in the coming weeks, Kate is actually our co-host. We thought it was a good place to start because Kate is actually a very prominent woman in tech in Perth and that is the topic of this
Jo Minney:episode. Absolutely. So Kate's given us her little bio and I just love reading it out because she's so impressive. And I'm like, I don't know if you know this or not, but I'm actually best friends with the WA Young Australian of the Year. So Kate is an unapologetic feminist. She's also the founder and the CEO of She Codes Australia, if you aren't already familiar with the Kate Kirwin. And Kate is on a mission to inspire 100,000 women across the country to enter tech careers.
Ricki Barnes:Kate's work is closing the gender gap in tech, where only 30% of employees are women. Her achievements have been recognised with the Business News 40 Under 40 Award and a Women in Digital Champion of Change Award. She was named as WA's 2024 Young Australian of the Year.
Jo Minney:Welcome, Kate, to the first episode of the Raft of Bitches podcast. Are you nervous?
Kate Kirwin:I'm really excited to be here. So we've been talking about doing this podcast, I think, for about four years. So it's really exciting that we're here today. actually happening, finally happening. I
Ricki Barnes:know.
Jo Minney:I do really enjoy, though, that the very first discussion we had about the podcast was actually just us narrating cat videos off of the internet. So it's come a little bit of a way since then, but I think it's still a good place to start with a bit of an icebreaker. So what is your favourite thing that you have seen on the internet most recently,
Kate Kirwin:Kate? I love watching an Instagram reel. I've been really obsessed with watching some Taylor Swift content lately. So much hype and Swifties are a little bit crazy in the most wholesome way possible.
Ricki Barnes:Love it. Usually in this part, we would ask our guest who's in their raft, but as this is the first episode, we thought we'd better go a little bit deeper into what an actual raft is.
Jo Minney:That sounds like a great idea. So Kate, I have three questions for you. What is a raft? What makes a good rafter? And how did you end up in this particular raft?
Kate Kirwin:The whole concept behind the Raft of Bitches started a few years ago based on this idea of otters that hold hands when they're falling asleep so no one floats away from the raft. The idea is women supporting other women, making sure that we all stay afloat and supporting us in every way, shape and form. I feel very lucky to consider the two of you as part of my raft. And what does that actually look like on a day-to-day basis we have a group chat and it's everything from brainstorming an issue to solving a problem at work to ranting sometimes venting definitely venting venting and then trying to propel each other forward as well so it is the place that I come to for support inspiration making decisions and keeping keeping a bit of sparkle in the day as well we add to your sparkle I
Jo Minney:love it. Yeah. You mentioned before when we were talking about this earlier, Kate, that one of the best things about having Ricki in the raft is that when you need to be convinced of something, she will just ask you what way you want to be convinced. And it honestly, if you can find someone like that in your raft, I highly recommend it.
Kate Kirwin:Yeah. Just the idea of do you need convincing in or out of a certain thing? Asking more questions before you jump in with a solution. I think that we can all learn something from that. I really appreciate that about Ricki. And I really love from you, Jo, your fearless support. I do feel like you're a cheerleader in the background. I think when you're thinking about people to be in your raft, it's a little bit of a similarity and a common thread, but you also want different opinions, different energy, so that you're complementing the bits that you maybe need to fill so that we're, you know, one whole person.
Ricki Barnes:What makes a good rafter? Obviously those things you've mentioned. What elevates someone above being, you know, just a friend?
Kate Kirwin:Yeah, I think that it's a lot about selflessness, right? I'm really genuinely wanting the other person to succeed. So it's not a transactional relationship. It's not what can you give me? It's giving back as much as you take. And that level of deep trust that we have in each other, I think that's what makes it really special. And I think that's one of the superpowers that women have in the relationships that they build, particularly with other women, is that level of trust and companionship. We're not here to compete. We're all here to achieve the same things in different ways.
Ricki Barnes:Who else is in your raft? I like to think of the OG raft, but we all know it extends beyond that. Who else is in your raft?
Kate Kirwin:I have so many people that I would consider part of my various rafts. We have a second raft that we call the Raft of Chaos, which are my more chaotic friends.
Jo Minney:I'm very honoured to actually be in both of those
Ricki Barnes:I'm not. I'm at home with a book.
Kate Kirwin:Jo can on occasion be a little bit chaos. We love that about her. I think we all need a Tracy in our lives. And if you've not met Tracy Rothery, she is the fearless cheerleader that is the most excited golden retriever of a woman that I've ever met. And I met her through She Codes and through the Women in Tech community. So really grateful to have her burst of energy in my life. And there's so many more people that we could honestly do a whole podcast on just who else is in my raft. We could be here all day. Yeah.
Jo Minney:Unfortunately, we don't have all day, but you've kind of also built a gigantic raft. And that's actually how all three of us, I think, met was through what is now called She Codes, but formerly was known as Perth Web Girls. My question to you, Kate, you started She Codes back in 2015. Before any of us had met, was there something in particular that happened in your life to spur you to start running coding and cupcakes workshops back then? there.
Kate Kirwin:Yeah, so contrary to popular belief, I have no experience before this in tech or entrepreneurship. My experience was in events and I was working for a co-working space. I just got really curious and I wanted to learn what people in the community were doing and went along to a bunch of tech events to try and teach myself. And I found very quickly that there was a point where I got stuck and asking for help was really hard. Online communities can be a Hit and miss. A lot of miss. A lot of miss. Really unhelpful sometimes. The in-person meetups were super technical. Lots of acronyms. I remember one day that I walked in and I was in this bright green dress and these shoes that were really loud on the concrete floor. And every single person turned and stared at me. And I knew half of them and I still wanted to die. It was such an uncomfortable experience. because I was the only woman in the room. Imagine if I didn't know anyone and that was my first time coming to an event like that. I wouldn't come back. So lots of these kinds of things were happening and I was working with a really amazing guy in the community who wanted to do an event for women. We partnered on the first one. He ended up moving overseas. Then from there it The rest is kind of history. So the community was super passionate and excited. We sold out the first event. Then we did another one. We had a waiting list of hundreds of women. So we kept doing
Ricki Barnes:more. The She Codes story, I think, really breaks down a common misconception about women in tech, which is that if they wanted to be there, they would be there. They would look for jobs. They would pursue it. The reason there aren't more women is because they're just not interested. What are some of the other common misconceptions about women in tech or about the tech industry?
Kate Kirwin:Yeah, so the most common thing, when I say tech, you think of a guy in a hoodie in a basement. I think about 90% of people when I say that word, that's what they think. They think that you have to be super smart. You have to be a nerd. You have to be good at math. You have to be a logic person, not a creative person. I actually think tech is so creative. You're solving problems all day. What's more creative than that? Those are some of the things that I hear. And some of the barriers for women are there's a lack of female role models. And we're still telling young women things like you're too fun to be in tech there's no job security in tech you should do something more suitable for women like accounting or nursing not that they're bad careers but why are we not pushing women towards tech and actively steering them in other directions
Jo Minney:One of the statistics that you mentioned, Kate, in a lot of the presentations and things that you give, for example, at the start of the workshops is around how many jobs we need to fill in tech and the fact that very soon almost every industry, every job is going to require some kind of technical skills. So it seems absurd that we would tell people not to learn something that they're literally going to need to get by. What is that statistic and why is it important?
Kate Kirwin:Pre-COVID, it is we needed 200,000 more people in tech in the next five years. Post-COVID, that's now a million. So that's quite a lot of people just in Australia working in tech and tech-related roles. 90% of Australians are going to need to upskill or reskill in emerging technologies in the next five years, things like AI, advanced data science. There's a lot of change happening and there's a lot of fear out there for people who've been listening to all of this. I'm not smart enough. I'm not nerdy enough. I don't know how I fit into this. That's causing a lot of fear. So we need to change that narrative so that we can fix both a skills gap as well as we've got an economic gap. By fixing gender diversity in tech, it could add $1.6 billion a year into the The economic conditions we're in at the moment, imagine what another $1.6 billion a year could add to our country. So I'm
Ricki Barnes:going to take a bit of a pivot now and just let's talk about She Codes a little bit more, I guess, for its current status. So is there anything exciting that's been happening for She Codes recently?
Kate Kirwin:Yeah. So 2024 has been a huge year so far. We spun out into a new entity. So we've been part of Spacecubed for the last nine years, which is co-working space in Western Australia. I've gone out into a new business, which is really exciting. So I'm aligned more with the vision of where we're going and really setting us up for growth. So our crazy ambitious target is to impact 100,000 women by 2025. And I'm super aware that we're in 2024 right now. So that's not a lot of time and a long way to go. So setting up for that success through this spin out. We're also So running programs this year in Perth and Brisbane for women who want to learn how to code. I think we mentioned at the start, I've won a few awards lately, which is still very surreal. I was named the WA Young Australian of the Year at the end of last year and had the opportunity to go to Canberra as part of Australian of the Year and meet the Governor General, meet the Prime Minister. More importantly, meet all of the other Australian of the Year nominees from all the other states and territories and listen to their passions and their journeys. And we might be hearing from a couple of those people in this podcast series. So I'm really excited the opportunity that gives for telling the story of what we do and getting out to a broader audience of talking to older women, talking to young emerging talent and really rebranding tech as you don't have to be a guy in a hoodie in a You can be feminine. You can be whoever you want to be and still find a role in technology.
Jo Minney:So we've talked about she codes and you run one day workshops with cupcakes. But along with that, a few years back, you decided rather than just having this be a one day thing, your sort of long term goal was always to have it be a cycle so that people could progress through actually working in the industry and then coming back to mentor at these one day workshops and to start that whole cycle again. So can you tell us a little bit about the Plus program and why it's different? Why is it different from just going and studying computer engineering at university? What's different about Plus versus everything else?
Kate Kirwin:I'm really proud of what we do with She Codes Plus. It was a conversation that happened over a couple of years with our program partners who were excited. This is really great, but how do I get someone I can hire into my team in the next six to 12 months rather than waiting for two to five years through other forms of education? And what we created was something that really works for women. It's designed by women for women. So it's part time. It's outside of business hours. So women can still work while studying and career change more smoothly than quitting their job and investing a lot of time and money into something. And really focusing on women supporting women. So we have a stand up every week. We are meaningfully sharing things in class and having, I guess, an extended raft of the other 20 women in the cohort who have those lifelong bonds and friendships post-program, as well as being taught by industry. Our lecturers, I guess you could call them, we call them lead mentors and mentors are all people who are from industry, who work in technical roles at various companies and they come and teach for us and they can tell us both content, but also this is how I code in my job and these are some of the tools that I use and this is what it looks like in the real world. I'm pretty excited that we've now done over 10 cohorts and we've had 250 women do the Plus program across Perth, Brisbane, Sydney and we did one in Port Hedland in the far north of Western Australia. The model is pretty cool. So we work with businesses to fund places in the program and they then get an upskilling opportunity for their own staff as well as a recruitment pipeline for new women who want to join their business and can meaningfully move that needle a little bit faster by getting actual women jobs in tech rather than just talking about it. How are we actually moving the needle? So 86% have got jobs in tech, usually within the first three months post-program. And it's so incredible for me seeing my women succeeding. So we've got people like Joy, who was a mother from Toowoomba in regional Queensland who's now working on a beach in Thailand and travelling the world while pushing code from wherever she is. We've got Maria who changed from a travel role during COVID which was obviously quite an uncertain place to be. She's now working for a resources company, was able to buy a house, it's kind of changed her financial situation and moved out of a potentially risky industry over the last few years, it's seeing things like that and people being able to, yeah, believe that anything's possible. Amazing. And how is Plus going? Are there plans? There's plans. The plan is to do another program a little bit later in the year in Perth and Brisbane again, building out the community there and do want to be looking on a national scale again over the next couple of years, just getting the right partners on board to, to make that possible. But yeah, I keep being told if women wanted to be in tech, they just would be. And that's completely crazy. There are so many women who want to do this. It's role models, it's opportunity and really investing in women that pays off in the long term.
Ricki Barnes:So why do you think this, I guess, grassroots sort of approach that you've adopted is so successful?
Kate Kirwin:At the heart of what we do, it's community. That's so important. When we're trying to create change, having a community at the heart of it just makes everything a little bit easier. Having that trust, the relationship building, trying to solve that problem that I was finding right at the beginning of who do you ask for help? When things are really hard, having a community around you makes things so much easier. I've got amazing champions in the community who love what we do and are able to kind of share that message because it is really... We coined a term a couple of years ago called the cupcake effect, which I love talking about at every possible moment. And the cupcake effect is how something makes you feel. We spent a lot of time on the cupcake effect and making sure that everything we do feels right. warm and safe. Intentional. Intentional as well. So we serve cupcakes. If you've spent even five minutes on our website or socials, you probably would know that. But the cupcake is more than just functional food. It's not just we put on lunch because you need to eat. It's something a little bit special. It's got the glitter and the sparkle. You can take a photo of it for Instagram. It feels like you're part of something bigger. And the cupcake effect is how How we do that on a broader scale. So it's cultivating the music choices. It's having name badges with meaningful information on them. It's the way something makes you look and feel that you're part of something bigger than just you and that it is personalized for you and making sure people have a really safe, fun experience is so critical.
Jo Minney:So I studied metallurgical engineering at university. That sounds like a sausage fest. You'll all be very shocked to know that I was the only girl to graduate in my year. I have to say, not only did it not feel intentional that I was there, it often felt intentional against me. My best friend that I went through uni with before I met y'all and she left and went to Brisbane and then did She Codes Plus last year, which is just an amazing story I love that when she was at uni Maya studied in another male-dominated industry and there were no female toilets in her building and so she had to leave the building where she was meant to be studying to go to the toilet and if that's not intentionally making someone feel excluded when they're meant to be learning. It's the literal opposite of the cupcake effect. So I think what you're doing, Kate, in terms of building that community where people don't just feel welcome, but feel like it's made for them because it is, that's so
Kate Kirwin:important. That doesn't shock me, to be honest, because I've heard so many stories like that. I've heard stories on mine sites that have been similar because they were the first woman working on the team. And I've also heard I've heard stories from an education context where someone was enrolled in a software development course and her lecturer asked her multiple times, are you sure you're in the right room? Are you sure you signed up for the right program? Yeah,
Ricki Barnes:I know how to read, thank you. And I know what I signed up for.
Kate Kirwin:Yeah, and are you sure you're not just copying off the boys? She was asked that as well. So it's unsurprising to me that she dropped out because why wouldn't you? If every week you've got to justify your existence, you're not going to feel like this is the place for me to survive and thrive. It's not a
Ricki Barnes:welcoming environment. What motivates you to keep pushing forward? It's a big ask. You know, you're obviously getting traction. There's a lot of women that you're literally changing their lives. What motivates you to keep pushing up against all these things like women being told they're too fun or they're in the wrong industry or all of that kind of stuff?
Kate Kirwin:For me, it's a couple of things. Number one, for me, it's about people. So hearing the stories from my alumni and seeing them succeed in the things that they're doing fills me with so much joy. And I was talking about this recently. I've had some stories of people who've ended up in tech from a one-day workshop who haven't emailed me because they were like, oh, but I just didn't want to bother you. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's what I want to know. If my entire inbox was just full of people telling me their stories, what a great day. Hearing those stories of people succeeding is the most important thing. And then I'm really passionate about how do we actually make a difference. There's so much research about the economic impact of diversity on a country level, but also on an organization level or product level. We can be building better products. We can be making better decisions. We've got limited resources and limited time on this earth so how do we build better stuff that actually fixes problems and if we can close the gender pay gap at the same time what a win for everyone involved. There's so many economic reasons for me to do what I do and then hearing the actual stories from people on the ground that have been part of it and building out that raft so that we're keeping everyone afloat. We're two for she codes from here. Yeah. So our crazy target is 100,000 women by 2025. How many have you got left? Our impact is about 30,000 so far, so we're about a third of the way there. Got a little bit more work to do in the next 18 months to get us to that number and really excited for how we use this platform to be able to impact more lives. For me personally, it's really about reshaping that perception that we have of who belongs in tech, making sure that every girl out there feels like that's something that I could do and it's not impossible and it's achievable. So what do you need to get there? There's a couple of ways that you can help. The first is if you're interested in working with us on moving the needle tangibly, we're looking for businesses to partner with from a financial point of view, but also for brand reach and sharing that message a bit broader. Reach out to us at shecodes.com.au of how your organisation can partner with one of the most loved women in tech brands in the country. I think I'm allowed to say that, but also get really great tech talent at the same time and know that you're part of something that is changing the narrative for women in tech. So we're looking for partnerships. If you can follow us on socials, we are She Codes Australia or She Codes Aus on every platform. And if you are in tech and you're a woman, I would love to hear from you. So what's your experience has been to date and how can I help you uplift your profile in the industry you work in?
Jo Minney:Other than partnering for fun What could people talk about? What could people do? Is there anything else that you would encourage people to talk to their rafts about to help with the goal that She Codes Australia is trying to achieve?
Kate Kirwin:Yeah, I would love to see discussions about tech to be discussed. more of a dinner table conversation. So having a conversation with the people in your life about, you know, what are the opportunities that exist and how can I be a part of that and just trying it. We say at our one day workshops, I don't actually care if you get to the end of the day and you're like, I hate it and I never want to do it again because at least you tried it and you know that you don't want to be in tech because you don't want to be in tech, not because society has told you that you can't or you shouldn't. Just having have a play with an online tutorial, test out your skills. And I just want you to prove to yourself that actually maybe you are smart enough to do this. So I would really encourage everyone just to give it a go through me or through anyone else, not precious about it. I'm a strong believer in collaboration, not competition. We're all trying to achieve the same thing. So working together is better than trying to all separately do the same thing. It
Ricki Barnes:So does She Codes have a raft?
Kate Kirwin:So we work a lot with Women in Tech WA, WITWA for short. I've been part of the organisation team, but also part of the community for a couple of years. So I'd love to share the Raft of Bitches story with the WITWA community, maybe at the next conference.
Jo Minney:Raft of Bitches panel at the conference, to get that out there into the cosmos.
Kate Kirwin:That's manifested. Yeah, big fan of manifesting. Tracy taught me that, the power of manifesting. of manifesting. There's a whole heap of other organizations that are doing really, really cool work, partnering with a whole heap of different people, doing some youth stuff. We've done some things in the past with Purposeful. We're doing some stuff this year about coding for young people, about drones, all kinds of different pieces. I can't reveal too much just yet because it's still in progress. But I think what makes me really excited is people who are aligned on the same mission. So our corporate partners are amazing. We've been working with Rio Tinto, Bank West, BHP, City of Perth. There's a whole heap of organisations that are really looking at how we move the needle. Excited to work with them as well as with these non-financial partners like WiTWA who just amplify and extend like a good raft should.
Jo Minney:You mentioned about youth and sort of getting more involved. Do you find that the people who come along to the workshops are predominantly sort of the younger generation that maybe feel like tech is a little bit more accessible?
Kate Kirwin:So I think that's really interesting because there is a myth that you have to be young to be in tech. I've actually had quite a few people put in their application forms the She Codes programs. I think I'm too old. I'm 30.
Ricki Barnes:Holy shit, I should be in a nursing home.
Kate Kirwin:Right? There's this idea that you have to be like 18 and have grown up with a touchscreen to be in tech. Most of our community are 25 to 50, mostly women in their 30s would be the bulk of our community. Our one day workshop series we've had from ages five through to 80 before. And a couple of times now, actually, we've had three generations of the same family coding together. And I think that's really beautiful. Watching a high school, primary school aged girl with her mom and then her grandma's there as well. They can all solve different pieces of the puzzle because they've all got different strengths and different ways their brain works. and different pieces of logic that they've been exposed to over the course of their careers and lives. So I think that's really cool. The long tail reach of that, if you can be sitting at the dinner table talking about the code you've done and spurring each other on, that's almost like a little mini raft within a family unit of pushing each other forward in their coding journey. So I love to see more of that. I was actually talking to someone recently who heard me on the radio and she's sent it out to her granddaughters to get a couple of them to come along to the workshop.
Jo Minney:Yeah, and I think it's also really important to have the different demographics working in the industry, especially when one of the things that's so important in our industry is about accessibility and making sure that technology is able to be used by everyone. If we've only got one very narrow age group that's building all of the technology that we're using, then it's not going to be built for everybody. It's going to be built for that age group.
Ricki Barnes:Yeah, it comes back to diversity within the industry, like gender, race, age, all of those those things ability if you don't have blended teams that have a whole different range of life experiences you're not actually going to come out with the best product for the largest amount of people
Kate Kirwin:one of the stories I used to use a lot was about wearable fitness trackers it was very evident about five years ago which products had been designed with women in mind and which hadn't because one product looks feminine you could wear it on your wrist and it looks like part of your outfit. But also when you're tracking your workouts, there's things like dance, yoga, other things other than just rugby, football, running. Walk, swim, run. Yeah. And if you can understand what activities people are doing, your data is going to be so much richer than just saying everyone who's doing a yoga class is out for a walk. That's not going to give you the metrics that you're looking for. That I think is a really powerful example of designing with your customer in mind. And if you've got a diverse team that's building it, hopefully you've got something that your customers want.
Ricki Barnes:What is the advice you've ever received? Or even what is the best advice you wish you had received?
Kate Kirwin:My best advice is that it never hurts to ask. I think a lot of people who are really early in their career think that if you get told no, then that's a no forever. A no just means a no, not right now. So you and most people, if you ask nicely and don't be creepy, don't be weird, don't mind if you reach out and say, hey, can we have a coffee or can I ask you something? Can we talk about how you got to where you are? Most people are pretty generous with their time. And so it never hurts to ask.
Ricki Barnes:I mean, I love that advice, but I think for a lot of people, especially young people and probably especially women, that's going to be something they're like, okay, easy for you to say, Kate, you're WA's Young Australian of the Year. Of course people are saying yes to a coffee for you. What's a piece of advice you would give to people trying to implement your advice?
Kate Kirwin:I think if you've got a really clear value proposition and you make it really easy, so you're not asking, can I have a mentoring call once a week for the next six months? You're not asking something that's a huge investment of time, even an introduction to someone. If you do a lot of the legwork for them of this is the email that I want you to send. I've written the template. You just need to top and tail it to do that for me. Like try and make it easy for people and have a really clear vision of what you want to get from that conversation. I often won't say yes to coffee if it's just, I just wanted to pick your brains about your story. Okay, but what do you actually want to get from that? And how can I make the most of the 30 minutes that I have with you? So being really specific, being really clear and trying to make it as easy as possible.
Jo Minney:Oh, damn, that's some good advice.
Kate Kirwin:Yeah.
Ricki Barnes:Yeah, it is. Kate, where can people get you if they want to get in contact?
Kate Kirwin:I'm @the kate kirwin on Instagram and Kate Kirwin on LinkedIn. Otherwise, you can find us at @SheCodesAus on Twitter and Instagram and She Codes Australia on LinkedIn and Facebook. And the website is shecodes.com.au.
Jo Minney:Unfortunately, we are otterly out of time.
Ricki Barnes:That's right. But if you are a woman in tech, especially a woman who has been told that you're too fun or you've been excluded somehow, we'd love to hear from you. And where can people reach us? We're on Instagram @Raft Podcast, or you can email hello at raftpodcast.com.
Jo Minney:And for previous episodes or to find out more, don't forget to check out our website, raftpodcast.com, or find us wherever you download podcasts. Thanks for
Ricki Barnes:listening, Rafters. Catch you next time. It's a bit warm? You're a man, you're obviously warmer than the rest of us.
Jo Minney:But you are actually legitimately warmer than the rest
Ricki Barnes:of us. You are actually, scientifically speaking, you would be legitimately warmer than the rest of us. On average. We're hotter, but you're warmer. Oh shit!