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Raft of Bitches
A podcast about women supporting women. Like otters.
Raft of Bitches
Dr Katherine Iscoe - Veering between confidence and hubris
This episode touches on some difficult topics including eating disorders and suicide. If you or someone you know is struggling with difficult conversations or mental health, please check out the resources below.
Dr. Katherine is a motivational speaker on the benefits of self-respect. She works with organisations who want leaders that bring 100% of themselves to work and never say leave saying ‘coulda, shoulda, woulda’. She is also a board member, a former tech CEO and multiple scholarship winner. Despite these successes, she hid an eating disorder, severe depression, and suicidal thoughts. Her personal journey drives her to inspire others to find inner peace and overcome self-destructive tendencies.
Dr Katherine needs help spreading her message, so if you or someone you know is looking for a kick-ass keynote for your next event, why not check out her availability here!
----- Resources ------
Lifeline Australia
Providing all Australians experiencing a personal crisis with access to 24-hour crisis support.
24/7 Crisis Support Line - 13 11 14
Website for resources or text chat - www.lifeline.org.au/
Butterfly Foundation
For anyone in Australia impacted by eating disorders and body image issues, as well as the families, friends and communities who support them.
National Helpline - 1800 33 4673
Website for resources or text chat - butterfly.org.au/
Hi Rafters, before this episode begins, we just wanted to share a content warning with you. This episode touches on some difficult topics, including eating disorders and suicide. If any of that is triggering for you, catch us back up in the next episode. Otherwise, it really is a great chat and we hope you'll get a lot out of the episode. As usual, this episode contains adult language and concepts.
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Jo Minney:For centuries, women have been taught that we are each other's worst enemies. But in our experience, women are more like otters than queen bees. Female otters, bitches, if you will, join hands with each other to create rafts that stop them from drifting apart and losing each other while they're asleep. Just like a literal raft of bitches, our experience has been that thriving women often have a tight-knit circle of other women who helped them get there by providing information and support along the way and making sure that we all stay afloat.
Kate Kirwin:Welcome to another episode of the Rafter Bitches podcast. So I'm Kate and I'm here with my co-host today, Jo Minney. And a fun fact about Jo is that her entire wardrobe is either pink, orange or purple. And we affectionately refer to it as Jo coloured.
Jo Minney:It's true. I'm wearing purple today and I'm here with my co-host Kate Kirwin. And a fun fact about Kate, she is currently wearing sparkly boots and owns three other different pairs of sparkly boots.
Kate Kirwin:I am wearing sparkly shoes, Jo. I'm wearing them today because our guest is a self-confessed shoe addict. So I'm wearing them in her honour. Our guest for today's episode is Dr. Katherine Iscoe. Katherine is a motivational speaker on the benefits of self-respect She works with organizations who want leaders that bring 100% of themselves to work and never leave saying shoulda, coulda, woulda. She's also a board member, a former tech CEO and a multiple scholarship winner. Despite all of these successes, she hid an eating disorder, fear, depression and suicidal thoughts. Her personal journey drives her to inspire others to find inner peace and overcome self-destructive tendencies. Dr. Katherine, welcome to the podcast.
Jo Minney:So So great to see you all again. Awesome. We are looking forward to getting into the discussion. We've got lots to cover today, exploring people pleasing, perfectionism, self-respect, burnout, but we would like to do a bit of an icebreaker first to get to know you. You've suggested your own icebreaker. If you could have dinner with someone from any timeline, who would it be? So who would it be? I'm curious to know.
Katherine Iscoe:My great-grandmother. So she's no longer with us, but... I've been told that I'm her reincarnated. She had what we say a lot of chutzpah. So it means like just like veering between confidence and hubris. There's a great story, which I will do a truncated version. So she was a Jew. This was in 1938 in Bratislava, which was formerly communist regime. Obviously, this is when Hitler was trying to cleanse Europe of its quote unquote, dirty people, homosexuals, Jews, etc. And so she heard a knock at the door. She opened the door and there was two grown men with rifles pointing them right at her. Her son was out of the apartment at the time, but her daughter was there. She was 12 years old. She fainted. And my great-grandmother, who is my size, so barely 5'1", had to make a decision. She said, do I just follow them and let them obviously take me to my eventual death and probably my daughter's death, or do I do something? So she took the two grown men with rifles over to the balcony, so they were in a penthouse, and she said, you can either throw us off or you could shoot us right here, but we're not going with you. And the story goes, the two grown men were so scared of my great-grandmother that they actually left, and she ended up escaping. And the rest of the story is long and complex, but... That is my great-grandmother to a T, and there's so many lessons, so many lessons that I would have loved just to have one more conversation with her, just to extract a bit more out of her.
Kate Kirwin:That's so cute. I love that. I literally have chills. I can feel the hair standing up on my arm listening to you. I can see your goosebumps.
Katherine Iscoe:She was quite a woman, quite a woman.
Kate Kirwin:And I think you can feel a lot of the tenacity and perseverance and drive through that story and through your own story as well, which I'm super excited to hear a little bit more about today. I'd love to know who's in your raft.
Katherine Iscoe:Oh gosh, definitely my dad. My dad is my best friend. He's probably the reason why I'm here today, which I'm sure we'll get into. There is an amount of indescribable love that I have for him that is just, I'm so lucky, so lucky to have him. My partner, who's my complete opposite, we, I don't know if swearing is okay. Well, I mean, it's called the raft of bitches. Okay. I just wanted to check, but I guess a way to explain my partner is he wants to buy the world. I'm going to save it. He says, fuck, I say, sorry. So we are, As polar opposites as you can be, like he dropped out of high school, he can't spell. I have a couple of degrees, I guess you could say. So we're so different, but it's interesting. I've never met such an incredibly inspiring and intelligent person. He is a reason why I keep on pushing towards my dreams. And I guess the last person would be my best friend. So I have, I think we all get to a certain age and we have a best friend for every occasion. So I have my really geeky one that I talk about PubMed research and we just geek. And then I have Nadine, who's been my best friend. I dated her younger brother. He dumped me. But the joke in the family is I dated him to get to her. So we've been friends now, I think, 13, 14 years. So I have these like range of friends that I think we all have. And without them, God golly. Don't know. Don't know how my head would still be on my neck. Friends are just the best. Totally, they are.
Kate Kirwin:When I first met you, it was at the Women in Tech WA conference, which was a couple of years ago. And I remember seeing you up on stage and you were in a bright red power suit with these killer heels, unpacking a bunch of really difficult topics, but with that little bit of sparkle. And one of my favourite quotes is, always bring the sparkles, the mantra that I live by. And I remember seeing you on stage and being like, yes, that's my kind of woman.
Katherine Iscoe:Oh. I'll take it.
Kate Kirwin:Totally. And I've been following you since then across your socials and LinkedIn and hearing some of the lessons that you share. I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about your kind of journey and what got you to what you're doing right
Katherine Iscoe:I think a lot of rabbit holes. And I think I think we've all been down rabbit holes is like, is this what we want for our relationship? Is this what we want for our career? And you sort of go down the rabbit hole. And when you're at the top, you're like, yeah, this is the only rabbit hole I'm ever going to go down. This is right. This is the right relationship for me. This is a right career choice. And then you're like halfway down. You're like, what the fuck is going on? And you're like, I'm already down the rabbit hole. I have to keep on going. So whether it was my culinary career, so I became a pastry chef when I was 18 years old. And I was like, okay, I'm going to open up a restaurant and catering business. I did it, went bankrupt for a quarter million dollars. And then my parents are both academics. They said, okay, just go to school. See how you go. I think that's a great Australian saying, see how you go. I got stuck there. Ended up getting scholarships. Went down a rabbit hole in that regard. Started doing research with type 1 diabetes. And you just sort of, I think when you're young, you're just like, well, what else am I going to do? You just get in this safe zone. And I think at the same time, because I was dealing with such a severe eating disorder, but back then, no one talked about it. It was just this weird thing that you felt like you were the only person who went through that. Like nowadays you can click on hashtag anorexia, hashtag, you know, binge eating disorder. And you're like, wow, there's another million people out there. But back then you felt like you were the weirdest person on earth. And I remember getting to the point. So this was during sort of my second time of suicidal ideation. And I was just at the point where I didn't know what to do. And I remember thinking, I just said, I need to tell my best friend. And you know, you catastrophize in your mind. You're like, if I tell her, all I pictured was she's going to get like those big men with the white padded suits and I was going to get carted off to like a loony bin. I said, like, Sarah, I binge eat when I'm stressed. I can't control myself. And I thought she was going to say, like, what is wrong with you? But she said, oh, my God, I do that, too. And that was the first, I would say, I call them dimmer switch moments because light bulb moments are wonderful. I think they're great for Hollywood movies. You're like, wow, I'm the common denominator for all these things happening to me. But that's a hard thing, isn't it? Because your ego says it can't be you. It's got to be everyone else because you can't be the screwed up one. It's like blame, blame, blame. And it feels so comfortable to blame everyone else that your business isn't going well, that your grades aren't what they are, that your health isn't what it should be. But you get to the point where, you know, you're 40 years old and you're like, I'm kind of halfway done. I better do something different. And so it sort of transpired into what I'm doing today. And that really clicked off a couple years ago when it was like the Bermuda Triangle of shitstorm, where my relationship was kind of hanging on by a thread. We're both very, very stubborn. And my brand wasn't doing what I wanted it to do. I felt like I was sort of going down this rabbit hole and talking about things that I wasn't really passionate about. I was kind of ticking a box like, oh, corporations want to talk about mindset, productivity. Oh, I can talk about that. Because I thought, well, corporations wouldn't want to hear what I have to say about what I really believe is important for people to hear. You can't sell what you don't believe in. And so of course, your business isn't going to work. So I thought I would do like the most mature thing and I ran away. I was like, screw it, I'm going home. But it's really distance that gives you such great insight. And that's sort of when I started thinking, well, confidence is really important, but confidence is the ability to turn thoughts into actions. So it's saying, hey, I want to raise my hand in this board meeting and actually say something important. But what happens before that? What is the instigating thought that prevents us from putting our hand up? And that's where the self-respect came in, researching it. And really the summary of what self-respect is, is knowing that you're important. So you put it back in that context of you're around a boardroom table. The chairperson is there. The chairperson is talking. The CFO is talking. And here you are, this new kid on the block. You don't feel as important as they are. And that is what prevents us from putting ourselves out there. And that's why self-respect is so incredibly important, not only for our professional careers, but when we go home and we have something important to say to our partner, our kids, it helps us having those conversations that we think are going to end in catastrophe. So as you can tell, I could keep on talking about it. I'm very passionate about it. And I think the world needs to hear about it a heck of a lot more.
Kate Kirwin:I love that. You can definitely see your passion shining through. And thank you so much for sharing what are really personal and hard parts of your life as well. I'd like to stay on self-respect for a moment. We both did the quiz on your website. We were just chatting about it before the self-respect quiz. There's 32 questions on there. Things like it's hard for me to let go. Or I often doubt that someone like me could accomplish something extraordinary. Or I feel guilty when I'm not productive, which I definitely do. do all the time. How did you develop that quiz and what are some of the things that you've heard from people who've gone through the experience of doing the quiz?
Katherine Iscoe:Oh, God, I love this question. So as a research, and I think we all have that sort of brain set in our mind, like how can we really look at a topic or a question in a really objective way? So when I came back to Australia after my little emotional breakdown where I just went with my dad and walked my dad's dog and got that clarity, I'm like, okay, well, what is self-respect? Because at the core of it, that's what my dad and I always spoke about. Like confidence is great, but what is the importance of self-respect? So I dove into the literature and it was very Shakespearean. or it was conflated with self-worth, conflated with confidence. So, well, I'm a former researcher. I got this. So I conducted a study, and the questions are based on some of the data that I collected from those interviews. So how qualitative research works is you have a standardized set of questions. You ask the same questions to multiple people. You gather the data. So in this case, the data are quotes. So you're asking the question, So you look at that interview and you pick out quotes that help you solve that mystery. And so what I saw was patterns over and over and over again. Self-respect is me speaking up when it matters the most. Self-respect is accepting that I was once an alcoholic and now I don't need to allow that to define who I am. Self-respect is the fact that I had to have an abortion because that was what was right for me at the time and I will not let anyone tell me that that was a bad decision, etc., etc., etc. So all those questions were basically the categories that I found through that research.
Jo Minney:So I also did the quiz and my results said that I was in the growth phase. And I believe that Kate, you also are in the growth phase. The score that you get is based on three things. Stop me if I'm wrong at all here. But the three things that you list are standing up for yourself, staying true to who you are and understanding yourself. And I was looking at these and thinking, which of these do I fall down on the most? And to me anyway, it was pretty obvious that the thing I fall down on the most is standing up for myself. It got me thinking, why is it so much easier for us to stand up for other people than it is to stand up for ourselves?
Katherine Iscoe:So the one thing that I found when I was going through this research is something that I called the high achieving people pleaser. And the crux of this conflict that happens in our head is that we want to achieve. We have this insatiable desire to tick that box to feel worthy and good enough and important and respected, but only in ways that ensures that everyone likes us. And I think here in Australia, we call it tall poppy. But I think it's even deeper than that. Because if you look at the nuances, like back to the example, you're in a boardroom, you have a good idea, you want to put up your hand because you want to set yourself apart. But if you do... Everyone's going to think, well, ain't she full of herself? Oh, she's like new here. Why would she think that she can contribute? And so in your case, it's the same sort of thing. Doing something for others, no problem, right? You're giving, you're altruistic. Oh, look at her. She's so loving. You do it for yourself. All of a sudden, what a selfish bitch. That's really what it comes down to. So the problem is, with this high achieving people pleaser conflict is that we conflate confidence with arrogance. So you standing up for yourself is turning your thoughts into actions. So you're turning your thoughts, how dare they, into saying that out loud. How dare you say that to me? I thought we had a better relationship than this, right? That's where the importance of self-respect comes in. It's your mind that's reminding you, I know I'm important. Arrogance is saying, I'm more important than you. But we conflate the two. And why do we do that? It's because it's what we've been taught. You've already answered that question. Put your hand down. Let someone else go first. Oh, you want to get the top role? Who do you think you are? Why would you put yourself forward for that? So we've been taught from a very young age to care more about the opinions of others than we do our own opinion. And what this distills down to is that must mean other people are more important than me. So when you're not standing up for yourself in the very back of your mind, likely unconscious, is that that must mean that their opinion is more important than me. Therefore, they're more important than me. Does that resonate at all?
Jo Minney:Yeah, absolutely. I think just from my own personal experience of the world, I noticed that kind of behavior a lot more in women. Does your research support that at all? Is this more prevalent in certain types of people?
Katherine Iscoe:Anecdotally, no. And that blew my mind. So from a very objective point of view, can I say yes or no? I can't. But the interesting thing is, as I start doing more and more of these keynotes, when it comes to this high achieving people pleasing conflict, I get 80% feedback from men, not women. One of my keynotes that I gave, I thought, you know, it's for a women's association. There was a few, you know, men in the audience. And this gentleman who was probably, I would say, maybe 65, you know, the stereotypical white executive male came up to me and said, I don't know how you got into my brain. Can I have a picture with you? Blew my mind. So the answer is, it's actually all of us. And that was so surprising to me because that's What we see, I don't see it. I'm still trying to figure out w
Kate Kirwin:hy. There's a guy in my She Codes community who's said to me before that one of the things he really values about being a mentor is having to check himself on the just being confident and saying an answer to something, even though he doesn't know, because he's like, I don't want people to think that I'm stupid. So I just say something, even if I'm not confident about it. Because I don't want them to think that I don't know what I'm doing. And working with beginners has kind of forced him to be like, actually, I don't know. And let's just look it up together. So I think perhaps there's different ways that different people express that people pleasing that sometimes it comes across as not wanting to look stupid. Sometimes it might come across as over committing or all of the other kinds of people pleasing
Katherine Iscoe:Oh, for sure. Short story. Many, many years ago, I was thinking about high school. High school was probably the worst time of my life. It was just like a cesspool for negativity. And this one particular story I remember that I came back to my locker and the word slut came was written over it. And the background of that is because parents got divorced. I just was desperate for love. And this is only recently have been able to admit this because, you know, in your mind, you're like, yeah, it was a slut. But the reasons why are much more important. That was sort of like an example of many of the things that I was going through. And I just thought, like, why didn't someone reach out? Like, why didn't someone see that? And I connected with one of my high school friends or associates We were talking about this and she said, I had no idea this was going on for you because I was dealing with my own shit. The point being, when you think you're stupid, everyone else is thinking that they're stupid as well. Everyone else is dealing with the same thing. And it's kind of like we're all wearing masks and it's like all acting. There's a great saying like, I'm not who I think I am. I'm not who you think I am. I am who I think that you think I am. Meaning we're all just pretending. We're all just doing this act, but everyone's in the same boat, right? It's so ridiculous. And my fear, my fear is that you get to the end of your life and your final words are coulda, shoulda, woulda. That scares the crap out of me. Absolutely. There's a great book called The Five Regrets of the Dying by Bronnie Ware. Palliative care has helped hundreds of people die more comfortably. She's had many deep conversations with these people and her top regret that she heard over and over again, I wish I had the courage to live a life true to me, not the life others expected of me, which is point blank what we all go through when we fear being stupid, when we fear being not pretty enough and not good enough, not this enough. When I heard that line in the sand, Line in the sand. And listen, I will be a recovering, high achieving people pleaser for the rest of my life. But just knowing that, knowing that everyone's going through their own stuff. What is the worst thing that's saying, I have no idea what you're talking about. I have no idea what that question is. What is the worst thing that could happen? What is the worst thing that could happen if you put up your hand in your boardroom table, you know, in that board meeting? Go for a promotion and fail. Who cares? Who cares? No one cares. Only you. Anyways, I'm going to get off my soapbox.
Jo Minney:No, no. You're allowed on the soapbox. The soapbox is the reason the podcast exists. We put it there and we're like, who can we put on the soapbox next? So welcome. We're really glad to have you on our soapbox.
Katherine Iscoe:There's just so many incredible people, not even just women, that are just waiting for the perfect moment to make the perfect decision or do the perfect example. And I just pray and hope that they are listening to this thing. This is a sign that the time is Yesterday, have that hard conversation with your partner because he's pissing you off. Have that conversation with your boss saying, this is not good enough. Have that conversation around the boardroom table as we can do better. Why not? Because I'm telling you, regrets are a heck of a lot harder to deal with than that moment of discomfort when you're putting up your hand and saying that first word. Amazing.
Jo Minney:Kate talked about her first time that she met you, first time that she saw you. My first time was a little bit different. I saw you speak on stage and I was like, wow, this woman is perfect.
Katherine Iscoe:Oh, Jesus Christ. I know, right? We had to dissect that.
Jo Minney:And I feel like maybe I missed a little bit of what you were talking about with the perfectionism there because in my head I was thinking this person is talking about how perfectionism is a thing that we all strive for and it's not really achievable and we beat ourselves up over it. But in my head, I was looking at you thinking, she's everything I want to be. She looks phenomenal. And those shoes, oh my God. And like, they really were the coolest shoes I've ever seen in my life. And then at the end of the conference, and it had been a big day, I was waiting outside for an Uber in like the little pickup area. And you were also waiting for the Uber and you had flats on. And I thought to myself, thank God, she's human.
Katherine Iscoe:And I think the thing that helped me with shoes, appearance, etc., it's there's a big difference between obsessing about your appearance and taking pride in
Kate Kirwin:So you've talked a lot about some of the hard times in your life and so many experiences you've talked about. Has having those raft members, those people in your life, made that journey easier? And do you have anything you can tell us about the friends that have picked you back up or where you would be if you didn't have some of those people keeping your float?
Katherine Iscoe:I love this concept of the raft of bitches. And I would say my partner, he's a bitch as well sometimes. So I think he could be in that raft. There's a great saying, you can't read the label if you're inside the bottle. The point of this is your perspective of the world is highly biased and highly judgmental, especially of you. People in your raft can call your bullshit, but also show you what you can actually do. Choose your raft of bitches wisely. Make sure that they fit you because I'm a high achiever. I don't want people that like, oh, you tried your best. No, I haven't tried my best because if I tried my best, then I would have done what I wanted to do. That's not good enough. I have people that never, ever let me say that was good enough. I'm happy with that. They're like, no, you failed. You let things drop. You were lazy. And I love that. That. is my raft of bitches.
Jo Minney:Amazing. I just want to circle back to one of the questions that's in your self-respect quiz. It's about, I can't remember the exact wording, but it's something like, do you enjoy what you do for a living? And that one kind of hit me because I never really associated that with self-respect. I studied for six years at uni in engineering. I worked as an engineer, absolutely despised it. I can officially say that now. I was getting paid really well. But I was also proper burnt out at the point that I left. I wasn't sleeping for four days in a row because I was working on site four days on, three days off. So I would just come back and sleep for my entire weekend. When I quit, I got a lot of judgment from people. You know, you studied for so long and And maybe you just need a break and you can go back into it. But for me, it was the 100% the right call. And it's a really hard decision to make to go, this thing is making me miserable. I need to go and do something else.
Katherine Iscoe:How is it related to self-respect? So one of the components of self-respect is the ability to make choices that are true to you and also to take responsibility for whatever happens due to those choices. So as an example, let's say you did leave that position and you weren't able to pay your bills, yada, yada, yada. Self-respect is saying I made that choice and I have to live with the consequences. The opposite of self-respect would be I made that choice. Well, that's because so-and-so didn't do what they said, yada, yada, yada, yada. So that's a connection with self-respect.
Kate Kirwin:So I wanted to talk about burnout. You've been pretty open about your experience of going through burnout. Yeah. I haven't so much, but I went through it a couple of years ago. And my story was a whole heap of personal changes in my life. I just ended a nine-year relationship, had moved back home. I took on a lot more responsibilities at work. I was traveling for work extensively. And then I got COVID for the first time. It's literally not an exaggeration to say I couldn't stand up in the shower. And people look at me like, what do you mean? You're like 30 and young and healthy. That's Everything else in my body just being like, Kate, you need to rest. This is crazy. We can't keep doing this anymore. And I think that took me maybe three months to feel like a regular human again. The other women in this room can... I have a lot to owe them about how they helped me through that experience. I'd love to hear what your experience was like and how did you get through your burnout?
Katherine Iscoe:This was about two years ago now. And my friends and, you know, colleagues, people in my office were saying, like, you just don't seem like yourself lately. You know, you're not your weird, quirky self. And I sort of brushed it off like we got stuff to do. High Achiever. High Achiever. High Achiever. Right. You know, people please. I can't take time off. Like, you know, I'll be late. So eventually one of them said, why don't you just go talk to someone like a psychologist and do one session. See if you find out anything that can help you sort of guide yourself through this. Went to a psychologist and within 15 minutes she said, Kat, you're burnt out. I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm a mindset expert. I don't get burnout, like, you know, shields, you know, armour. And eventually she said, you're going to have to take some time off. And I said, well, how much time off? And I kid you not, she went, you know, when they, you know, she said, probably about a month. I said, yeah, nah. And I bargained her down to, I'll take the rest of the afternoon off. So from a month to the rest of the afternoon. So I go home and I'm like, okay, I'm going to do like hashtag self-care. I'm going to get like a journal, you know, from Kmart and the pretty gold pen and, you know, make a cup of tea and like, you know, do the Instagram photo, like hashtag self-care.
Kate Kirwin:That solves all problems, right?
Katherine Iscoe:Of course, of course. So I'm thinking, so I do this exercise. It's called the flow writing exercise. It was validated in the 1980s. Basically, it's like opening taps, right? You have a prompt question. So in my case, it was, how does it feel to be you right now? You set a timer for five minutes and you just write. You don't scratch anything out. You don't have to have perfect grammar. You know, you just let it rip. And I was thinking, you know, the clouds were going to open up and like this light was going to shine down on the piece of paper and like, oh, here's your answer. And you can go back to work. And that's it. Whereas reality, what happened is like the most profane writing of my entire life. I gripped the pen like a Neanderthal and was scratching it like F you, F you. And like just the amount of anger and rage that came out on that paper was certainly not Canadian by any means. And I remember the timer sounded and I threw the journal down on my couch and I gave it the double middle finger. And I was just screaming. I was just like I was possessed. Afterwards, like a couple of days later, I'm like, what was that about? And then I was like, she said it was burnt out. But the burnout that I read on Gwyneth Paltrow's blog is, oh, you're, you know, tired and so forth. And I'm like, that wasn't my experience. That was definitely not my experience. And then it made me ask, like, well, if I've went through this, then maybe other people have as well. And that's when I started talking to people. And they're like, yeah, we're tired. Of course, we're tired. You know, we're working 60 hours a week. But that's not what bothers us. What bothers us is we're really, really angry. We're angry that we're saying yes to things when we want to say no. The to-do list, the post-it note list is endless. We don't even need to go there. But I was like, God, this is a different kind of burnout. And I call it the burnout triad. It's anger, which I say in a different way. Fuck. Fear and the facade. So the anger part is why have I allowed myself to get to this point of people pleasing? The way I describe it is when you keep the peace, the only thing that that does is keep the tension in your brain, which builds up into anger. Fear is if I take this time off, am I ever going to be successful? If I take off one month, three months, there goes my career. I'm never going to be able to get ahead again. All my competitors, maybe my business is going to get taken off me, you know, catastrophize, catastrophize. And the facade is this whole concept of why am I complaining? Other people have it so much worse than me. I can't share this. Oh, look at me, like the privileged person complaining that they're feeling like really down and burnt out when we have a quote unquote nice life. I know I'm seeing like... To the people listening here, everyone's like nodding around the table like, you, you,
Kate Kirwin:you, you. And Jo is giving me the most pointed looks. Every time you say anything, she's like, Kate, are we listening?
Katherine Iscoe:And so that was my experience. And I thought to me it was the most relieving thing because I don't know about you, but I never hear, especially women, talking about anger.
Speaker 03:Because
Katherine Iscoe:I think we need to be these martyrs like, oh, she's so nice. Oh, my God, she's like so successful. But oh, my God, she's so nice. And she's so helpful. I did the valley girl accent for you there. But you know what I mean? Like nailed it, nailed it, nailed it. But you never hear like, God, wow, she really lost the plot. We just don't talk about anger. And I just don't know why. Because I think that's such a critical component of burnout. And if we could just Solve that a little bit. I think we'd have lower levels of burnout. Southern accent. I don't know where they're coming from.
Kate Kirwin:I love it. We've had such a wild ride. And before we started this show today, Kat was giving us her attempt of an Australian accent, which we won't force you to do on mic. I think that would be unfair. Oh,
Jo Minney:hey,
Kate Kirwin:it's
Jo Minney:getting
Kate Kirwin:better. Yes, you nailed
Jo Minney:it.
Kate Kirwin:so good. For me, and I think why Jo was giving me a lot of these pointed looks while you were talking, in that period of burnout where I felt like I was recovering, I was still saying yes to so many things that I knew I should have said no to. One of the moments I was with my boss talking about everything that I had coming up in the next period of time and I just started like ugly crying. He was like, but Why do we need to do that now, Kate? Could we not just do that in like two weeks? Like, does it have to be today? And I'm like, yes, it has to be today. Why? It can't be any other day than today. And he's like, but who cares? Does it diminish any of the value of the work we're doing if we're not doing it today? I'm like, but I'm letting people down and people are going to feel bad and they're not going to be able to start their coding journey because I can't do it. And that would be the worst thing ever. And he literally sent me home and was like, you need to go just sit down for two weeks and come back when you stop crying. But yeah, it was that, I think a lot of that people pleasing of like, I can't possibly take a break or stop or... have a more realistic schedule because I can do this. I've been doing this for a long time. It's only another little bit more pushing. I can just keep pushing.
Katherine Iscoe:That's your high achiever. So your high achiever is saying, we have to push forward. We have to grow. We have to, you know, build this. And then the people pleaser is saying, yeah, but we can't let her like people down. But then the high achiever is like, well, but you know, it's just this fight that happens in our head and drains our energy.
Jo Minney:Yeah. What's your best people pleasing story? What's the thing that for you is your ultimate people pleasing story?
Katherine Iscoe:How many stories do I have? I think the one that might hit home. So this was during my master's degree. And this is a time that I was in that very dark period of my life, you know, at the bowels of my eating disorder. It was just horrendous. I was having an affair with someone like and that just took every inch of self-worth and dignity out of my soul. And I just felt like I didn't belong there. I felt like I was stupid because everyone, you know, biochemistry, like we're talking highly, highly intelligent people in the area of science. Every Friday we would have a journal presentation or presentations. People would, you know, show their research. And I remember this guy, Sergio, was presenting. I'm like, I'm going to ask a really important question, like a smart person question. You know, like when you're at a conference and someone raises their hand, you're like, wow, that person must be smart. I don't understand what they're saying. So I'm like, I'm going to ask one of those questions because I wanted everyone to validate me. And in my head, I thought, well, I'm going to ask this question and it's going to be like in the movies where everyone turns and they slowly stand up and they clap. You know, like, wow, she is so smart. Like, validation, people-pleasing, when in reality what happened is I asked a question and it was like time just stopped. Everyone just looked at me like, what are you talking about? And I remember my supervisor looked at me and he just started shaking his head. And then it got worse. He actually turned back to the front, crossed his legs slowly and put his head in his hand and just kept on shaking his head. It was the worst moment of my life. But the point of this is, is I was so worried about pleasing everyone else. It's like, hey, wow, look at me. I'm so smart. Like, you know, I want to be one of you. Accept me into the like doctrine of academic and this field of STEM. And to this day, I'll always remember that. Never ask a question to prove that you deserve to be there. Ask a question because you want to know the answer. Big difference.
Jo Minney:Wow. I wish more people who went to the conferences I go to had heard that advice. Mm-hmm. One of the things we like to ask all of our guests is what's the next step in your journey and how can we help you get there? So who were you looking to connect with? And is there anything that we can ask our raft to help you with?
Katherine Iscoe:I have recently created what I think is my best keynote speech ever because it is 100% me in the sense of storytelling and quirkiness and entertainment. And I recently did it and I got applause after 90 seconds. My high achiever was... Absolutely so happy. As a keynote speaker, you don't ever think your speech is good enough to get on big stages. But I'm actually now at the point where I'm like, people, please be gone. I'm actually really proud of this. And I think it really can make a difference. So my request is to get on bigger stages and in the world conference organizers, anything, anything that would allow me to wear my best shoes and sparkle on stage.
Jo Minney:All right, Raft, our goal is to get Dr. Katherine Iscoe onto the TED stage. So if anyone's got connections,
Kate Kirwin:let's make this happen. Is there anyone missing from your raft or anyone else that you want to connect with?
Katherine Iscoe:Oh, all right. A few years ago, I started this series called In Her Shoes.
Jo Minney:Excellent.
Katherine Iscoe:Yeah, it was a series that I piloted. It's shoes, stories and sensational women. And it was interviewing incredible women, but it was really their struggles behind their success. And we would do this while shoe shopping. In the past couple of months, I've really been toying about the idea of trying to get it back out there. Obviously, you know, it costs a few bucks to do this. So I've actually put my feelers out for directors, producers. to try to get this back up and running again. It's actually a very profitable business proposition. And the benefit of this is that we would try to get this into schools. Because I think having a 16-year-old girl watch these incredible women and actually the stories underneath their success. So when they do get out into the work and they say, oh, wow, there's a female CEO. She must have had it so easy. She must be super smart. She must have yada, yada, yada. This is long. Imagine a 16-year-old girl listening to story where actually I didn't finish high school and I was on the streets you know there's many stories of this imagine that girl seeing that and saying Ashley you know what yeah I can code I can be CEO I can be an engineer or I can be a fashion designer what doesn't matter what they want to be allowing them to see that inspiration so they can forge their own path that's why I want to get the inner issues series up up and running
Jo Minney:I love that.
Katherine Iscoe:Okay, so producers and... Producers, directors, anyone really in the entertainment industry. field. So my feelers are out.
Kate Kirwin:And where can people connect with you and find you? Where are you on the internet?
Katherine Iscoe:Yeah, website drkatherine.com. That's I'm sure you'll have it in the link. And the other part would be Instagram. So benefit of that is you see short 60 second videos that might just help you change your mindset for the day. So I do everything from skits, high achieving people pleasing skits to just stories and posts. And I just love Yeah, I really love it. I love that little community that we've built. They're pretty funny. Yeah, thanks.
Kate Kirwin:They are. They're hilarious. There's some real gold in there. So definitely if you've enjoyed listening to Dr. Katherine today, check her out on
Jo Minney:Instagram. Excellent. And don't forget to go on to Dr. Katherine's website and take the self-respect quiz and find out which phase you are in. Unfortunately, we are once again utterly out of time. That's right. But if you have an epic people-pleasing story, we'd love to hear from you. And where can people reach us, Jo? We are on Instagram at Raft Podcast, or you can email hello at raftpodcast.com.
Kate Kirwin:And for previous episodes or to find out more, don't forget to check out our website, raftpodcast.com, or find us wherever you download podcasts. Thanks for listening, Rafters. Catch you
Jo Minney:next time.
Katherine Iscoe:The feelers have been starteth, but we can continueth
Kate Kirwin:with the rafteth. I love it. You've gone Shakespearean to end this
Katherine Iscoe:podcast. A lot of accents today.