Why Don't Great Products Always get funding? Unplugged with iSolution with Stuart bateman

AI can feel like a toy right up until it starts outperforming your process. We talk with Stuart Bateman, VP of Technology and Marketing at 1957 Ventures, about what “bank-grade AI” really means when you’re building in fintech where speed, regulation, and security all collide. From his career digitalizing major organizations in Saudi Arabia to helping a venture arm invest in fintech startups, Stuart brings a pragmatic view of what actually works when the stakes are high.

We get specific about the investing and product side: why traction is the new entry ticket for funding, how onboarding and customer acquisition break at scale, and why technical details become the failures you worry about at night. Stuart also shares how generative AI changes building itself, from shipping mobile apps in days to improving UI and UX that many teams neglect because it takes too long by hand. Along the way, we dig into public domain content, monetizing niche test prep apps, and why a focused simulator can beat a general chatbot when you need fast, repeatable learning.

Then we zoom out to infrastructure and governance in the region: cloud platforms like Google Cloud, Saudi data residency requirements, and the checks and balances you need so AI doesn’t quietly introduce insecure code. We also explore AI-driven recruitment funnels, the tradeoffs of automation in hiring, and what it takes to unlock more MENA talent on global freelance platforms.

If you care about fintech innovation, AI governance, cybersecurity, cloud strategy, and building products that ship, hit subscribe, share this with a builder friend, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Stuart

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Yella? Joining us today is the mastermind behind the digitalization of Saudi Arabia's biggest industry giants, currently leading technical development at 1957 Ventures, the man who masterfully bridges the gap between regulation and startup speed innovation. Welcome Stuart Bateman, VP of Technology and Marketing at 1957 Ventures.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Thank you, Kevin.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

It's a pleasure to have you here.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Pleasure

A Career In Saudi Digitalization

SPEAKER_01 0:42

to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

So let's start off a bit. Tell us who's Stuart. And I know you've been through, let's say, uh Al Marahi, Jidia, etc. Run us uh through these different industries you actually tackled.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Sure. So uh actually I'm uh from the United Kingdom. Uh I moved to Saudi Arabia quite a long time ago, 13 years ago. So most of my professional career or the majority of it, uh I've been based here in Saudi. Um going back to the days of uh e-government and and when uh there was a lot of discussion around uh these topics of of e-government. I participated in some of the uh different um different uh symposium events regarding uh e-government and what it should look like and this and that. Uh but yeah, I've worked at uh four different companies since I've been here. I spent four years at a company called SIS, Saudi Intelligence Solutions, and then I moved to Al Marae, where I worked for three years in digitalization, and then to GDA uh for five years, where I also worked in digitalization, and then more recently to 1957 Ventures uh working in technology and uh marketing.

What 1957 Ventures Actually Does

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Can you tell us what 1957 do exactly?

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Sure. So 1957 Ventures is a subsidiary of Riad Bank and it does two things. It uh identifies and invests in startups uh that are uh fintech-related startups uh with potential, and it also uh looks to build uh in-house ventures uh which are also um of interest to the bank.

Startup Investing Comes Down To Traction

SPEAKER_00 2:23

So, how do you determine that a startup has the potential to get the investment?

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Um I think nowadays it's a lot to do with traction more than anything. Um I looked into this quite a l a bit over the last year or two, and uh it's uncommon for especially in the West, for for companies to raise money without much traction. Uh if you don't have customers, uh then it's very hard to raise money. You might have a great product, um, but if you're lacking some initial traction, um then you know it's it's it's hard to to convince people to invest in you. Um so traction is is very important, and then once you need traction, it's a number, you know, you can look at the numbers then, right, to see how good or bad a company is performing.

Scaling Payments And Streamlining Onboarding

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Makes sense. So when you were at uh GDR, you used to handle over four million daily transactions, correct?

SPEAKER_02 3:25

I mean GDR is handling for uh four million daily transactions. Um I was involved in the uh digitalization of the sales funnel. Um there's a lot of onboarding of customers. Uh it was actually going through a very big growth phase during COVID uh with a bit of a mandate to for companies to start using card payments. So there's a very large amount of uh inquiries coming and we had to do a lot of work to make sure we streamlined those inquiries. Um but after that, a lot a lot of other stuff too.

The Small Technical Details That Bite

SPEAKER_00 4:02

What's one technical failure that keeps you up at night?

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Um honestly I mean you know, there's that saying the devil is in the detail. And uh unfortunately, you know, a lot of people um might miss that detail. Um and and then surprises come along uh where they shouldn't really. Um so letting go and empowering other people and trusting other people to do things uh sometimes uh can come with uh hidden surprises and uh just worrying about uh that I guess.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Yeah, so we're gonna come back to a bit uh how you manage and lead your team. But while I was doing my research, um I stopped and paused uh on two words that you mentioned bank grade AI and experimental tooling.

Bank-Grade AI Vs Experimental Tools

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Is currently, let's say, AI, just experimental toys in the fintech segment? Or is it actually doing something that's gonna change how we operate for the next uh decade or so?

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Yeah, I think there's a lot of I mean, there's a there's a lot of change. Um if you take for employees specifically, or initially, uh employees are using AI uh in everything they do today, especially uh the people I work with. I mean, we are uh we often have one or two monitors and and you have your AI open on one screen at all times, right? Um whatever you're doing. Because one of the important things that we try to to encourage is is always trying to understand the best practices and all the options. And that's one of the things you know Jen AI can help you with, which is to understand all of the best options. You know, so for example, just here, right, if you wanted to get cameras for a podcast, then it's like, okay, which cameras would be the best type of cameras to use? Why is it these type of cameras? You know, what are the alternatives? And you know, you can add a lot of value to the things you do by using AI to get that information.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Do you think we might ever, let's say, lose control?

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Lose control of the world or lose control of what? Of AI. I mean, it's it's I mean, one interesting thing I did recently uh as an experiment.

Bug Bounties And AI-Assisted Security Testing

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Uh there's a program in Saudi called uh Bug Bounties. Have you ever heard of bug bounties? But basically big companies. Yeah, big companies like Apple and Google, they pay money to people that find bugs in their software and they pay out tens of millions of pounds every year. Anyway, there's smaller versions of that, and there's one in Saudi called bugbounty.sa and basically I decided to sign up for the program and basically used AI on its own to uh to scan and uh to attack the vulnerable websites to see what and you know I got really good results. I was like on the top leaderboard uh for the quarter, um, like sixth place, I believe. And it is basically just a matter of copy and pasting back and forth. So you've got your like say ethical hacking tool, and then you've got your AI, and it's like, okay, I need to attack this target, and then you're basically back and forth, taking the output, giving it to the AI, getting the next commands. And using that, I was able to find you know a lot of vulnerabilities in a lot of like uh big systems.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

So you're known for using AI in the most efficient way possible. Um I have a few things here that I'm gonna ask you. Okay. I um I was checking on the Play Store and App Store. So there's an app, an app called uh Book Garden. I'm just gonna open my phone. So I downloaded the app called uh Book Garden. This is your app, correct? Yeah. Okay, so how did you build this?

Building Apps In Days With GenAI

SPEAKER_02 7:53

So my background was software development. Um I was a software engineer when I graduated, which was 20 years ago, uh, plus or minus. Uh but then after several years, I kind of moved into the project management of things where I was not really coding per se, but I was overseeing uh projects, uh software development, and things like that. So when Gen AI came along, it was like wow, you know, I can uh program without the headache of programming. Um so I started to experiment with with different things. Um and one of the things I was experimenting was uh iPhone applications. Um so I started to build iPhone applications, and it was actually very straightforward. Um so I started to to get a portfolio. I have like now maybe 17 applications uh on the App Store which which do a diverse amount of things. And honestly speaking, I mean the majority of the applications they're built in like two to three days uh or less, you know, and um that's the testimony to uh AI and how you can basically use it um to to start little apps or businesses without much uh uh know-how.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

So before actually going in this app, are you making any money out of these apps?

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Yeah, I make uh a little bit of money. Uh mainly the m the the one that makes the most money is the I have a a lot of these uh test simulators, so like Google Cloud Certification Test Simulator, AWS, and and the one that makes the most is the PMP test simulator for project management professional.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Makes sense. Yeah. So we're gonna see the GCP simulator in a bit. I'm just gonna run through uh this app. So this is Book Garden. I can see there are a lot of books. Uh you can also review the books. Uh the main question I have is how do you get the copyrights for

Public Domain Content And Copyright Reality

SPEAKER_00 9:47

this?

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Yeah, so what I try to do is is I tried to always do a a different type of app. So so one of the apps I did uh to make all my apps different was I made an uh ebook application, a little bit like Kindle. Um and what I did is I used the public domain books. Um so there's around, well, there's millions of books that are in the public domain, meaning they're over 100 years old, they have lost their copyright, and there's no uh problem to reuse those books. Even things like uh Mickey Mouse today, you know, you can actually reuse Mickey Mouse, the original cartoons, and and you can make an original Mickey Mouse cartoon, and it's out of copyright.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

It's out of copyright because it has a it has a date, let's say, expired date or most things have a hundred years of copyright.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

So you could actually make your own Mickey Mouse cartoon today, and you wouldn't be uh Disney couldn't do anything about it. Providing you use the uh original drawings of Mickey Mouse. If you use like because Mickey Mouse changed over time, if you use like the modern version, you can't then you can't. But the original ones you can.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Um this application shows me that shows me why you're into marketing and technology. So it's like uh holding two hats, you know.

Why Tech And Marketing Now Merge

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Uh is it the the best formula for actually growing businesses, or is it like a formula for burnout?

SPEAKER_02 11:11

I mean, for me, uh the combination of technology and marketing is is very closely linked together today. Um I I think if you work in marketing and you don't have much knowledge about technology, you won't get very far. Because today everything's about conversion rates, attribution, cost per uh event, uh optimization based on uh keywords and and all these type of things. And if you don't understand that very well, um then you won't get very far. And technically there's a lot of effort to set up, especially things like tracking within apps, it's you know, linking apps back to ad platforms, it's not easy.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

So, how much does marketing help you understanding customer behavior and which uh let's say also helps you pushing the apps in a let's say a more uh user-friendly manner?

SPEAKER_02 12:03

I mean, I don't know, for me it's kind of just intuitive. It comes in. I mean it's just in intuitive, right? I know what makes uh a good app and I know what makes a bad app. And unfortunately, uh, you know, most of the time the apps you see are not very good. I mean there are very good apps in in Saudi that I like a lot, you know. Things like the STC app is very good. Um but then so many apps are just you know uh very bad. Uh and it should not be that hard to fix the problem. And this takes us back to actually fundamentals.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Are they bad because they don't fix a business problem, or are they bad because they're technically bad?

SPEAKER_02 12:43

I mean uh it's the user experience, it's a combination of bad user experience and and usually bad like back end. So for example, uh just things being very slow, uh apps being very slow, and also just the UIUX exper uh experience. And AI can actually help us here. I'll tell you why it can help us, right? And it's one of the things we were talking about recently. Um for a mobile application uh or for a web page, the design is generally uh all code, right? And if you look at some of the really nice designs we've made with code, you're looking at maybe 1500, 2000 lines of code, just specifically for the design elements, the boxes, the corners, the shading, and all these types of things. So, as a a human doing these things, you know, most of the time they probably can't be bothered. So when you get a human to make a uh graphical interface, they'll probably skip on a lot of the design elements because no one wants to write 2,000 lines of code just for fancy boxes, you know, and fancy uh elements and things like that. But with the AI able to do that, uh you can use it to do that, and then you get much better results.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

So, did you utilize this one exactly to build the GCP test simulator?

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Yeah, I mean uh my my apps have got better over time. Uh, but yeah, I think the GCP one is is probably one of the best, has a whole achievement system, it looks very nice. Um, and again, it didn't take so long. Uh, but one of the things I I learned to do is to like keep a like a library of uh like you could say good code. Um so for example, if I wanted to make a new app tomorrow, like so, for example, Nvidia just released a whole new load of certifications, right, for AI Cloud and this and this. So I could literally you know take the the Google Cloud one, which is probably the best looking one, and repurpose it for Nvidia. It would literally take me a few hours. The only thing I'll be missing is the question bank for the question and answers that I'd have to get, and then boom, I can stick it together. Where do you get it? So it depends on uh public uh public uh depends. I mean I think Nvidia has quite a few of the things public. Um but then there's past papers, there's databases, um, and then AI has a good knowledge of of most of these things anyway, uh, to to come up with the questions.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Okay.

Test Simulators Beat Chatbots For Speed

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Can you show me the app and uh how does it function? Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

So the Google one? Yeah. Sure. So I mean, this is the uh application. There are several different exams that you have. So Google Associate Cloud Engineer, Google Cloud Digital Eader, all of the different ones. Um and then these are broken down into different sections. And then you have the practice section uh where you can basically go through the practice questions, and then you can select the answers, and then the important thing is you get the explanation as to why your answer is right or wrong, and then you have like a progress tracker and achievements related to how you've been uh performing over time. And the way it works is you get like a seven-day free trial, uh, no obligation, and then it's up to you if you want to continue that uh subscription or not.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Okay, this sounds nice, but I I have a question here. Why not, let's say, utilize a tool like Notebook LM, which acts uh like a personal uh teacher, and uh where you can give it all the information and it can help me with this. What's the difference, let's say, between this application that does the G GCB testing and a regular AI chatbot, let's say?

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Yeah, I mean what I like about my app and what I think makes it good is it's it's it's very efficient for uh multiple choice uh test simulation. So for example, you know, you can uh answer question next, answer question next, answer question next. If you get it wrong, you can read the explanation, then next question, you've got a question bank of like two, three thousand questions. So it makes it very efficient, you know. You can be in your bed or wherever you are, and then just uh quickly go through. Whilst if you're trying to do that with uh Chat GPT or something, it's it's gonna take a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

It's a lot more challenging and slower. Okay. So talking about GCP testing, what's the added value of Google Cloud within the region today?

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Uh the added value is Google Cloud offers a uh you could say Tier 1 uh data center solution uh to companies uh within Saudi Arabia uh and mainly fulfilling the local uh Saudi data residency requirements. Um so it's it's uh it's very user-friendly and it's very easy for companies to use. You know, we can go online, sign up, get access, and then deploy whole uh whole infrastructures in in hours and and minutes, you know, without having to I think some of the other options on the market are more manual where just very uh like legacy approach, talking about how much bandwidth you need and then custom quotations and okay it's gonna cost you this much and you need to sign for a year and you know that type of thing is is not useful for startups or or just people who wanna get things done quickly.

Cloud, Data Residency, And AI Guardrails

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Okay, so talking about data and data centers, uh do you believe in data more or let's say human touch more, like instinct in uh decision making?

SPEAKER_02 18:20

I think you know, I think you really need a a good driver behind the AI, right? Because otherwise um, you know, the results will not be uh ideal. You can teach people to actually work in a certain way, uh a systematic way, where they start with, for example, AI, they start with doing deep research, they follow a certain process. But I think there's a lot of blind spots that people have. Uh and if you don't have that strong uh understanding or you haven't got to that lev a certain level of of technol technology proficiency, you're going to screw things up and and really like you know create a disaster.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Did you ever encounter or did you ever let's say had a disaster directly from somewhere that you didn't expect?

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Um I mean you catch the AI, you can catch the AI many times, like doing like the wrong things. Um and if you're not really paying attention, then uh it can uh you know get you into trouble. Um it could be as simple as uh just creating uh a certain type of script that is is not really secure uh and and things like that, you know. So it's important to to keep your eye closely on the AI. And then also you can have checks and balances. So for example, you there's certain tools that are used for scanning source code that you can scan before you put things live, like Sonacube and HCL and these different things. So it's important to use those. Google Cloud has its own set of things that you can use. Um but yeah, I mean if you're not careful, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yeah. Okay.

AI Recruiting Funnels And Hiring Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_00 20:14

So you've done something previously, which is called AI driven recruitment and talent funnel, correct? Yeah. What does it do? Because uh it seems it might uh uh remove the human touch of recruitment.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Sure, I mean um I mean this uh approach to reducing the human involvement is is not new per se. I mean they've had these uh ATS systems for a long time, they've just been more algorithm heavy rather than AI heavy, um basically using algorithms and and lookup lists and things to try and rank candidates. But yeah, I mean it's uh it's a real problem for companies, unfortunately. I mean, for example, some of the jobs that we advertised recently, we had uh like over a thousand applicants for one particular job, you know, and it's like how does a company deal with that, you know, and candidates expect to be informed what's going on and to have that personal touch, but when you have a thousand applicants, you know, it's not possible to do that. So we have to use uh some method to to manage that. And we use uh we started to use AI to to do that.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

And what's the difference? How does it manage it, let's say, in a in a better way?

SPEAKER_02 21:32

I mean what it does um it scores candidates uh from say zero to a hundred. Um and it does that by very closely comparing a job description to a candidate's CV. Um and uh that's why the job descriptions are actually really critical, not for the candidate per se, but for the actual AI to do its job. So if you want to hire a software engineer, it's very critical. That you have all the kind of specific things that you want from that software engineer, whether it's like you know, expert in Java and Spring Boot or whatever, you know, the very specific things so that when it's doing this matching, it can actually find people that uh uh uh it can score based on that uh matching. And then you have a list of say um a thousand people ordered from you could say top to bottom in terms of relevancy for that job, and then it's a matter of you know, starting from the top and w making your way down, you know. So you know, you might you might look at 30 CVs instead of a thousand.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Do you think some people, let's say, might uh lose a chance of getting the job uh by mistake?

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Um I don't think they'll lose job by mistake, no. Um but I mean uh I guess without it, you know, there's maybe more chance of a random person getting through. You know, like maybe people you know, there's certain things you can't necessarily assess with this AI filtering, which is people's enthusiasm and which is very important, um and you know, passion. So so yeah, there's that. But we try to compensate that with with other things like uh aptitude tests and and and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Makes sense.

Rapid Fire: Jobs, Governance, Cashless 2030

SPEAKER_00 23:24

So now I'm gonna uh run you through a bit of human difficulties. I'm gonna run you through 15 rapid fire questions. Okay I need direct answers. The first thing that pops uh onto your mind. Okay? So the first one, AI, is it a savior or a job killer? Both you need to pick one. Okay, let's say AI today. Is it a savior or a job killer? It's probably a job killer. And tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

I'm still a job killer.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

When is it a savior then?

SPEAKER_02 24:06

I mean it's a savior for the um it's it's a savior for some people. Um and I guess the ones who are striving to capitalize on it uh now. Um because uh now's the time to to get ahead with it.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Okay. Marketing or technology? You can only pick one. Technology. Bank governance or startup speed?

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Startup speed.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

In-house AI or third-party APIs?

SPEAKER_02 24:41

In-house.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Uh Sama regulations, are they a helpful shield or innovation break? Um helpful shield. Data driven or gut feeling? Uh data driven digital wallet or physical card? Digital wallet. Growth or profitability? Um Growth. Riyadh or London for tech talent? Riyadh. Technical debt. Is it a tool or a trap? Uh trap. We're gonna come back to this. Coffee or tea?

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Coffee.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Slack or WhatsApp for business?

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Uh WhatsApp.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

2030. Are we needing a hundred percent cashless society?

SPEAKER_02 25:36

I think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

One word to describe 1957 ventures.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Uh bleeding edge.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Do you consider yourself a good leader? Uh I hope so. So these were 15 rapid fire questions, and you've answered perfectly. We're gonna come back to just one I want to ask you about. Technical debt is a a tool or a trap. Can you just like explain a bit more on this one? You said it's a trap.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Yeah, I mean, if you have that uh technical debt within within uh a project or a company or a team, then um then uh it's a ticking time bomb, right? That will come back and and bite you if you don't take care of it.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Makes sense. So uh another question you talked about the last one was uh do you think you're a good leader? Your answer was I hope so. Hope so,

Leading Teams By Teaching AI Habits

SPEAKER_00 26:33

yeah. So how do you actually lead your team?

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Um I mean, for example, uh I mean this uh we recently employed a handful of graduates and uh they're actually very smart people, very talented, but you know, they just kind of they w they they the eyes were not open to the capabilities of AI and how to use it and this and that. And with small amounts of of guidance and showing them how to do certain things and and uh kind of let them uh uh experiment on their own, you know, they were actually able to to really uh make huge strides. So I think this is a problem, you know, generally in the world. I think lack of knowledge is is a big problem. Um you know, I think people just don't know uh and because they don't know, they don't uh benefit.

Unlocking MENA Freelance Talent On Upwork

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Um one example that always comes to mind is there's a website called Upwork. I don't know if you ever heard of it. But uh Upwork is the You hire freelancers, no? Yeah, it's a website for hiring freelancers, and you know, for some reason it's like probably 70% of the people there are from India, right? Which means uh which is good for them, but the point I'm trying to make is you know, where where's everybody else? You know, where's the you know there's a handful of Arabs on there? Because sometimes we need Arabic talent for you know Arabic website, and you have the odd sprinkle of a few people from Egypt, a few people from Jordan. It's like, you know, why is it not full of Arabs as well? Or why is it not full of uh other people? You know, why is it so heavily skewed to towards India? You know, and so like obviously these these these uh freelancers in India, they're like seizing the seizing the platform and and working for ty you know working for companies all over the world. Uh but then other people are either they just they don't know about it, they don't know about the opportunity, and it's you know it's not bad money, you know. You can make some uh money and if you know like the salaries of of some of these uh jobs, you know, like even uh you know in some of these countries, you know, it's not very high. So, you know, working for international clients uh at an average rate is is actually really good money back home for for freelancers in different countries.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Yeah, yeah. I've I've tried it. Um I know how it operates and I know that uh it gets good money. But the question is how can we actually get people in the region, in the Mina region, to to actually be on this app, uh to have the courage to show up because you know I think they they sometimes uh lack the courage to post about their uh their past achievements, etc. They they prefer to keep it for themselves.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

We maybe, but people are happy to post all sorts of strange stuff, right, on TikTok and and and so I'm sure uh they can post in a professional way too.

Workaholism, Family Time, And Hobbies

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Okay, moving a bit uh to you to TikTok on the personal side, how do you unplug after a full day of work?

SPEAKER_02 29:35

I mean honestly, uh I'm a bit of a workaholic these days. Uh and and then the reason is uh AI has become like very stimulating. Um you know, I find more pleasure in programming and using AI than I do like watching TV. Um you know, if I'm watching TV, I'll probably get bored and start playing with my phone. And you know, I don't really um enjoy uh that much. I mean obviously I I I do watch TV and sometimes I have it on in the background, but uh honestly um it's so stimulating these days, you know. It's just like you have a magic wand, you know, and I'm just still enjoying, like, okay, I need app, boom, you know, I need this, boom, I need that, boom. And you know, it's like it's like it's like you got this magic wand and you just want to keep using it uh for all these different things. But yeah, I mean uh I have a family and uh you know I uh spend time with them when I'm not uh you know on my computer.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

And like if if we move technology to the side a bit, what's one hobby for you?

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Hobby, I mean occasionally I play computer games, uh but honestly, uh sometimes they can get very addictive. So I try to like stop uh playing because I'm someone who just can go a little bit extreme sometimes. So I uh you know it's like I can either play this game for like all weekend or I can build like two apps this weekend. So it's like you know, I'm trying to like focus on building the apps and make some you know make some more money.

Final Thanks And Wrap-Up

SPEAKER_02 31:08

So did you enjoy the podcast?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yeah, it's been uh very nice to to to be here. Thank you for being part. Uh we loved having you, and uh this was Unplugged.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Thank you.