Run Your Race Podcast

#017 - Grace Thomas: How To Fuel For Performance (My Personal Dietitan)

• Pierce Showe • Season 1 • Episode 17

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Grace Thomas shares her compelling story from athlete to dietitian, focusing on the importance of nutrition in endurance running. She discusses her personal experiences with under-fueling and how they led to health issues and injuries.

• Grace’s journey with nutrition starting as a collegiate athlete 
• Insights into Low Energy Availability (LEA) and Relative Energy Deficiency in Sport (RED-S) 
• Practical fueling strategies for runners: pre, intra, and post-training 
• The significance of hydration and its impact on performance 
• Signs of under-fueling and how to recognize them 
• The importance of carbohydrates as a crucial energy source 
• Grace’s tips on nighttime snacks for better recovery 
• Discussing the cost-effectiveness of fueling options and alternatives to expensive gels 

Find Grace here...

Dm me the word "COACH" on Instagram (@pierceshowe) to learn more about 1:1 coaching

Speaker 1:

okay, what's up guys? Welcome back to the run your race podcast. I'm your host, pierce chow, and I'm joined by my dietitian, grace thomas. Grace is a registered dietitian, personal trainer and run coach who got her master's degree in dietetics and nutrition at the ohio state university. Right in my backyard, where I grew up in Columbus, ohio. She runs Grace's Grit, offering personalized nutrition and fitness strategies. With expertise in sports nutrition and working with endurance athletes, grace helps people achieve their goals and perform their best. I'm excited to bring you guys Grace, because she's helped me out so much and illuminated some different problems that I was struggling with, that I was trying to cope with with energy drinks and just different things that I wasn't doing right, and so she has an amazing story, a ton of knowledge, and so, grace, I'm so excited to have you on. Thanks for coming on.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thank you. I'm excited. I feel like this is something we probably could have recorded right when we first started working together too, and now I feel like we have even more topics, even related to your journey with nutrition, that we can talk about today, and I love being on a platform that is, you know, grounded in faith and also is bringing more positivity towards runners and endurance athletes and bringing you know just a whole other level of what performance can look like for any runner at any ability and stage in their journey.

Speaker 1:

Awesome. Well, grace, I want to start by telling a little bit of your story when it comes to nutrition and sports. I know you were a D1 runner at Ohio State, so I guess let's start out with, like when did you really get into nutrition and why?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's a great question. So even if I go, you know, way back in time, you know I grew up in Columbus, ohio, and was doing all different types of sports growing up. My life revolved around sports. I was a swimmer my whole life and then kind of got into running, played field hockey in high school. Initially, thought I was going to play field hockey in college and kind of switch gears more towards running. I never struggled in high school with nutrition, with body image, you know, not really injuries either, until my senior year. And you know, everything kind of switched when I made it to Ohio State.

Speaker 2:

I ran cross country and track at Ohio State and coming in as a freshman I had never, you know, learned a lot about sports nutrition. It wasn't something that I was educated in in high school. I had a healthy relationship with food, but it wasn't really something I ever thought about. You know, I went about my day eating my meals. That was that I really didn't know what exactly to eat before track races or after track races. And then, you know, got to college and I was very influenced by, you know, teammates, environment, coaches, the sport just looking a certain way, and I started, you know, very unintentionally under fueling. It wasn't necessarily that I was trying to under fuel, to be, you know, smaller, to be better, but it was that I started to become very kind of obsessed, which turned into a little bit of something called orthorexia, with eating very perfectly, eating very clean, and with that I just wasn't eating enough calories. So I then was diagnosed with like first, low energy availability or LEA, which is essentially not enough energy in versus energy out, and I was later kind of turned into something called relative energy deficiency in sport or REDS, and that was what I was diagnosed with and I think initially the thought was more the disordered eating piece. And then, looking into everything, there were so many more problems that were kind of coming up with that under fueling piece and I definitely struggled a lot with my body image, my relationship with food. But one of the worst things I experienced was like the obsession with exercise and really with my injuries. I was just trying to overdo it with cross training, kind of doing what I was told to do but going overboard and just wasn't fueling adequately during injuries. I experienced multiple bone injuries, mainly in my tibias, and I just couldn't get healthy and we started to realize that this was very nutrition-related.

Speaker 2:

The anxiety and depression kind of kicked in at that point and I got a DEXA scan and that was the big eye-opener for and I got a DEXA scan and that was the big eye opener for me. So the DEXA looked at my body composition. I saw that I had osteopenia and a little bit of osteoporosis in a few parts of my body and that was when it finally clicked in me like something is not right and I need to get better. And I was working with a dietician at Ohio State and you know, throughout my recovery process I started thinking more about kind of her role and how I felt like this was something I wanted to learn more about. So, fast forward into COVID, we kind of lost our last track season, we were sent home and I kind of had this like big eye opener of, like you know what. I think that there's a bigger future out there for me and God has a plan.

Speaker 2:

I decided to apply to the graduate program for the Masters of Dietetics and Nutrition. We were the pilot program, the first class, that to become a dietitian you requires a graduate master's degree. So I started that in that spring of COVID, which was a little bit challenging and that was kind of what led me to become a dietitian. I specialize in sports nutrition, so I was the one person in my class that had more of a sports nutrition route. So I was working on the other side of athletics, which was really amazing because I went from being an athlete there to then being on staff and I got to work with football and basketball and hockey. And then my second year I took over all of aquatics and got to work with a lot of the endurance swimmers and it was a really awesome learning experience. And you know, I always thought I would end up being like a football collegiate dietitian that was kind of my plan and then I realized that I just really love working with you know, athletes struggling with reds and endurance athletes, and that was what I ended up doing. My thesis and my research on in grad school was exercise induced gastrointestinal syndrome and looking at the impacts of exercise on our gut, and that was kind of what led me to then start Greece's Grit.

Speaker 2:

And now here I am, which is wild.

Speaker 2:

A year and a half ago I went off and just randomly started my own private practice and I'm so grateful I get to work with clients in all different areas of the United States and I'm completely telehealth, which is also amazing, and I've gotten to meet some really amazing people along the way.

Speaker 2:

And I think nutrition for me you know I wanted to get into nutrition because I felt like the experiences that I went through were going to mold me into being a dietitian that could help others, you know that are going through that or hope that they're not getting to the point that they're going through that.

Speaker 2:

So I'm an ambassador for Project Reds now one of the United States ambassadors, and we're trying to bring more awareness to not just the athletes but the coaches, the parents, the staff, for that inner collaboration of care and that is something I'm going to continue to bring awareness to and continue to support on my platform is what those impacts of underfueling are, intentional and unintentional. So, yeah, I think you know my challenges are what led me to become a dietitian and I think God had this plan for me all along and even though I feel like I never achieved anything at Ohio State in athletics, I achieved becoming a dietitian and now be able to help people. So I think you know that's where my story kind of started and it started with sports and it ends with sports and I think, sports will kind of always be a part of me.

Speaker 2:

So you know, I'm here, even on a podcast, talking about my story. Clearly there's a reason, and now I'm just grateful that I get to help all different types of athletes.

Speaker 1:

That's really cool. I love how it's like God, we don't understand why he's doing certain things in certain seasons. Like I'm sure you were so frustrated, so mad, you know, getting these different injuries and things coming up, and just like I'm sure it was just like this process of like, oh my gosh, here we go again. This comes up and you know then COVID, taking away your last season, but then how it led to you becoming a dietitian and how you're able to help people because you can relate to them, versus if everything just went well and great, you probably wouldn't be able to relate in that in that kind of way. So I think that's so cool. But I want to talk about, you know, those injuries and reds, because it's very apparent like fueling is so important from a standpoint of maximizing performance but also limiting injuries, and so do you think like a lot of your injuries were like nutrition induced? What would you say about that? And then I want to talk a little bit about red.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's a great question.

Speaker 2:

So obviously I think there are some injuries that can be, you know, related to just a person's body type or their form or it's an injury like a sprained ankle right, but when we're looking at bone injuries or stress fractures type or their form, or it's an injury like a sprained ankle right, but when we're looking at bone injuries or stress fractures or stress reactions, nutrition in the research is a big part of that right, and when we are under fueling we're reducing our bone density. I also wasn't lifting a lot at Ohio State as a college runner and I think that was also a really big impact. So I do think there were three components to me getting injured often. I think number one was overtraining, you know, too many miles, not enough recovery. And then number two, just not eating enough, right, and that really did start unintentionally, like I still ate a lot of food from what I thought and I ate very healthy, but it just wasn't enough volume and it wasn't enough of the right foods, right. And then I think number three there that really ties into everything is the importance of the straight training piece, right, and it's really hard. You know you already have two hour practices and cross training sessions. It's hard to fit in lifts and we just didn't do a lot of lifting heavy in college and that's something that I will continue to tell people is you have to lift, you have to lift.

Speaker 2:

But I think those three impacts were the ones that really influenced a lot of my injuries. I did have some fluke injuries and you know some ones that weren't necessarily caused by under fueling, but the the gist of my bone injuries. You know some ones that weren't necessarily caused by underfueling, but the gist of my bone injuries. I mean, when I got my DEXA scan, it showed, right, it showed why I was getting injured, right, that loss of bone density, the osteopenia at that age is dangerous. And it showed that my bone density was declining and that my weight wasn't enough and I wasn't eating enough.

Speaker 2:

So that was for me like the big eye opener. That was like oh, because I think in the beginning it was like, oh, I'm getting injured, this is normal. I'm a college division one runner, the training's just a lot. I got to get used to it. But then it was like I'd get back from the injury and I just get injured again.

Speaker 2:

And I was doing all the right things and I was doing the rehab and I was doing the recovery and I was doing everything I needed to be doing quote, unquote but I just wasn't recovering like I needed to and I wasn't feeling like I needed to and then it was just kind of that cascade from there and I even struggled right out of college and I've even struggled the past few years trying to get healthy running because my body was just in such a bad place. It's not like instantly you get better. So running can definitely take a toll on your body when you're not taking care of it. And that's something I stress to all of my clients at every different age is we have to fuel adequately, to take care of our bones and to be able to perform at the level we want to perform at right.

Speaker 2:

We know, the research shows that when we're feeling adequately, injury risk goes down right. So, especially for runners, we have such a high impact Our sport is all high impact so making sure that you're having bouts of recovery in the middle of marathon training is important. If you're a high school athlete, making sure that you're on top of your nutrition it's important, and I think for me too. I just didn't know what I should be doing and the things I needed to be doing, and I thought it was just like I was doing things wrong in the sense of like my training, or I just wasn't working hard enough, or it was my body. But it really was things that I could have changed and I could have improved. But when you're so deep into disordered thoughts, it's very hard to change your ways.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for sure, and it's very interesting to just like how much nutrition plays a role in just everything in mood and, like you know, depression, all that kind of stuff, your performance, but also injuries I know you're really involved with with reds. Can you talk a little bit about that and also like the impacts of under fueling beyond just like injuries?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so let's talk about red. So reds, relative energy deficiency in sport. You know it starts with that low energy availability that I spoke about earlier, which is essentially I like to describe it as energy in versus energy out, and we want to see that kind of equilibrium and when you're not having enough energy in versus energy out, your body can start to shut down and this can can start to turn into a lot of other issues. So you know, I have some really great handouts and visuals on REDS that show a chart that has a circle and it shows all the different components of the body that are impacted by REDS. And you know it was originally started as a female athlete triad. So it was three things that diagnosed someone with a female athlete triad and that was loss of a menstrual cycle, or called amenorrhea, it was low bone density or, like osteopenia, osteoporosis, and then it was the disordered eating piece.

Speaker 2:

So an eating disorder diagnosis, you do not have to have an eating disorder diagnosis to be diagnosed with reds. But there is some component of that food relationship or under fueling piece with there. But a lot of times it can be unintentional. But then research started to take this bigger and turned it into a bigger picture with reds that also took into account males, because males are also impacted by reds and we're seeing, you know, higher and higher percentages of males also being diagnosed with reds and more coming out to share their story. A lot of professional runners are coming out to share their story on REDS.

Speaker 2:

And we're looking at the impact of low energy availability on your cardiovascular health. We're looking at the impacts on your gastrointestinal health. We're looking at the impacts on your endocrine system, hormones specifically, you know we're looking for females, the impact on amenorrhea. We're looking on, you know, hormone testosterone impacts on males. We're looking at the anxiety, depression, the mental health piece. Right, we're looking at, you know, recurring illnesses, someone constantly getting sick, so their immune system. So we're looking at so many different pieces of the puzzle now that are being impacted.

Speaker 2:

So when a client comes to me and I'm, you know, looking into their charts and doing their initial assessment on them, and let's say they're coming to me and they're maybe underweight from what their weight normally is. Okay, they're performing pretty well, but they're not recovering and they're just feeling a little off. Let's say this female doesn't have a menstrual cycle. Let's say she's had three bone stress injuries in the past year. Let's say we ran labs on her and her cholesterol was super high. And let's say her BUN and creatinine were abnormal, which is her kidney function, and let's say her resting heart rate was like less than 40. I would look at this individual and say, okay, I'm going to screen you for reds, right, so we can see so many impacts in the body other than just like, oh, this person's getting injured a lot, I bet they have reds. It's so much more to that.

Speaker 2:

Or oh, I don't think this person's eating enough, or oh, they have an eating disorder, right? So there is a difference between eating disorder and reds. You know I wasn't diagnosed with a full on eating disorder. I did have that orthorexia piece, but a lot of mine was more so related specifically to that overtraining, that anxiety around training the bone injuries from under fueling. So I think reds is something that we just need to continue to educate, educate, educate, because you know the harms offueling are so much more than people think they are and it can really start unintentionally.

Speaker 2:

I would say a lot of the athletes I work with that are underfueling. It is completely unintentional and they just have no idea how much they need to be eating for their body. Right. But when you start to see those systems go down and it can impact every part of your body, that's when you start to get that area of concern. We want to make sure we don't get someone to that point where everything is bad right.

Speaker 2:

So I think, making sure that you can catch reds early and there are a few really big signs for people that I usually look at. Number one is just the constant fatigue. Number two would just be like recurring injuries. Number three, for a female, would be like the very low amenorrhea, so loss of menstrual cycle or amenorrhea. For a male it could be like low testosterone, like hormonal imbalances. So you know a few small things. Low iron is another big one, or ferritin that we could be looking at. So you know a few small things. Low iron is another big one, or ferritin that we could be looking at. So you know, looking at a few smaller markers to be able to diagnose can be really important from a risk assessment.

Speaker 2:

Um and just being aware of what those are right.

Speaker 2:

Um and just being more in tune with your body too, and and knowing like that it's not normal to be exhausted every single day. Um, it's not normal to have a super duper low resting heart rate. Even if you think you're fit and athletic, it's not normal to have low blood pressure. So you know, knowing what's normal and what's not normal for an athlete is also very hard. So just being more aware of what the research says and having people you know, like myself, or Project Reds, to go to and inform yourself more on what Reds is, I think is the number one thing I will always tell people is just we need to make sure we are aware of those concerns.

Speaker 1:

That's really good. Thanks for sharing that, and I want to transition now a little bit to some specific recommendations that you'd have for people who, like, may be struggling and they're like, oh, I'm not sure what's going on, but I may be struggling with this, this red stuff, Obviously, I think you know going to a dietician, you know going to Project Reds. What are some things that you can start to do to get more awareness on this issue, Like how do you know if you're under fueling?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. So I look at kind of like five big things here. Number one I would say is like are you bonking, are you hitting the wall during workouts? Are you not recovering from them? Well, are you experiencing frequent injury? I think that would be like the biggest one there that I'd be looking at right. Number two is your hair starting to thin or brittle? Are you feeling cold frequently? Loss or irregular menstrual cycle, hormone imbalance, low libido all of those would be things for us to be looking at.

Speaker 2:

Number three another big one too, with underfueling, are you constantly thinking about food and I know this sounds weird, but you're having intense sugar cravings or intense carbohydrate cravings, especially in the evenings. Or maybe you're feeling ravenous in the evenings because you most likely are not eating enough during the day. That can also be a really big sign. You're feeling tired all the time, but you also can't seem to get enough sleep. So you're sleeping eight plus hours but you're exhausted, right. And then, lastly, you're losing or gaining weight. So I think people think underfueling can only cause weight loss. We also can see weight gain with underfueling as well.

Speaker 2:

So those are kind of the five like things I'll think about or ask clients about that are, you know, very simple to just think about in your current life. So there's no lab work with it, it's just, you know, let's think about. Are you constantly thinking about food? Are you constantly not performing well in workouts, like normal hormonal imbalances? Are you having some difficulties with maintaining your weight or difficulties with losing weight? You know, the exhaustion is something that we spoke about with you a lot, you know. Are you relying on energy drinks and then are you feeling exhausted all the time? Well, that might be a sign that you're under fueling and your body's trying to just run on caffeine. So I think that can show up in many different ways there, but that would definitely be the first thing that it's like. If I think someone's definitely under fueling with one of those symptoms, you know, let's fix that so it doesn't get worse.

Speaker 1:

That's really good and I'll just share a little bit about my position is that when I came to Grace, I was working a lot, training really hard. I had gotten to my mind like I can get by on six to seven hours of sleep and then I was training one to two hours a day and typically around like one or two o'clock in the afternoon. I'd like be on it. I was literally like on a call and then would start to like fall asleep. I'm like what's going on? Why am I so tired? Like is it because I had a big meal before? Or like what's going on? And then I would have an energy drink.

Speaker 1:

And I was before in a work culture where it was like everyone just has energy drinks. Like that's just the thing you do. They taste good, it's like helpful, whatever, and you're just living off of 200 milligrams of caffeine at a time and I didn't think anything of it. But then we started to talk about it. Grace started looking at how much I was eating per day and then we also looked into my WHOOP data on how much I was sleeping per day and I was sleeping six to seven hours and I wasn't eating enough. And she brought that up and I'm like, oh wow, that makes a lot of sense. I really don't need these energy drinks if I just take care of those other issues.

Speaker 1:

And energy drinks are not good for you. They have a ton of chemicals in them and so why wouldn't you just want to fix your sleep, fix the way that you're fueling? And I think also one thing I'll throw into is that a lot of times I don't know if you see this, grace, but like a lot of times I'll see like I'll think I'm in bed eight hours, so like I slept eight hours, but it's not that it's not exact Like when you go to bed. It's not that it's not exact Like when you go go to bed. It's not like boom, you fall asleep and you know you wake up. So it's eight full hours yeah.

Speaker 1:

So maybe you can dive into that or talk more about you know what we worked on.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So you know a big thing with Pierce. Number one is you know, when any type of endurance athlete comes here honestly, any type of athlete I do a pretty big initial assessment on the client. We ran a lot of lab work on Pierce, you know. I looked into his dietary intake, I looked into his health history medication, supplements we looked into his exercise routine, his gastrointestinal health, his sleep, and you know we look at everything, the big picture right.

Speaker 2:

And I think for Pierce, we definitely saw some things from an inflammation perspective and from a recovery perspective that he was experiencing and he wasn't necessarily feeling like he was recovering well from workouts. He was feeling tired all the time. He also didn't have the best gut in the beginning either, and that was something he was experiencing as well. And I think you know, for example, with Pierce, the first thing I wanted to do was like, hey, why don't we just work on changing your nutrition? Pierce was eating way too much protein and not enough carbohydrate. So that was the very first thing that I was like okay, your stomach probably hurts very bad because you're eating an excessive amount of protein and you're not getting enough fiber in from some whole grains and from carbohydrate sources. Then we tried to really dial into what his pre-interim post-fueling was looking like. When Pierce first started working with me, he wasn't really fueling during like easy runs that were like over 60 minutes, which he needed to be, so that was something that was going to help boost his energy is he was just like underfueling. But it was very unintentional. He just didn't realize he should have been eating more carbohydrate. And I think social media tells us protein, protein, protein, protein that's all we want you to eat, right, and as runners specifically, our main source is carbohydrates. So we have to have them, right, and some runners may need more than others, and that's OK and and I work with clients on finding that sweet spot but we have to have a carbohydrate source. And so once we brought his carbs up and reduce his energy drinks and tried to just add a snack instead of having an energy drink, so he wasn't having those midday snacks in the beginning he was kind of doing rice cakes, which wasn't enough carbohydrate for him, right, or he was just doing like some frozen fruit, right, so really thinking about it as snacks, having a protein and a carbohydrate source. So a Greek yogurt with fruit and granola, that would be a balanced snack.

Speaker 2:

Once he started to have, you know, more snacks throughout the day, eat more adequately every two to three hours, he started to not feel the crash right. So instead of grabbing the energy drink, he was reaching and grabbing for a snack. And I think for a lot of people that's the biggest key is we're just not eating enough. So our energy is like relying on energy drinks when it should just be relying on food. So your blood sugar becomes very imbalanced if you go a really long time without eating.

Speaker 2:

So if you're someone listening to this that you're like, oh my gosh, that's me, I'm drinking so many energy drinks. Try next time, instead of grabbing the energy drink or a third cup of coffee, to just eat a snack. Right, I guarantee that actually eating more will probably help you reach your goals and your body composition quicker than you just not eating or restricting your food. So I think I see this a lot with the caffeine and there are ways to have caffeine healthy and there are ways to incorporate it into an endurance athletes diet, but we need to make sure that we're not using that over food. And also, I feel like for peers, like your sleep improved once you reduce your caffeine as well.

Speaker 2:

So, I think prioritizing what that post, you know, post dinner or bedtime snack I call it was to try to like help with recovery overnight, include your tart cherry juice and then your sleep started to improve and your recovery started to improve. Right, the other big thing I'll say, you know, with Pierce is he didn't have any vegetables at all on his plate.

Speaker 1:

Still working on it, but I'm better now.

Speaker 2:

We tried to add in just some vegetables for the micronutrients, add a little bit of color in there, um, cause, that's going to be the fiber as well, that that helps with the normal bowel movements. And obviously we don't want vegetables before going for a run, but we can totally have them in our dinners or our main meals as long as they're away from training. So again, we took a small approach and and and focus on a few things each week. We met every two weeks and we just made some small changes every two weeks and now I think for sure, you feel better, you're sleeping better, you're fueling better and your recovery is better.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, no thanks for diving into that Couple things. One I was. I always thought like, oh, you should never have anything like close to bedtime because it's going to mess up your sleep. Can you tell talk a little bit about that and how you have a lot I would imagine a lot of your endurance athletes actually having something like a bedtime snack what that looks like, why that's important?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think everyone knows me for my, my nighttime snacks it's like my favorite part of the day. So you know, I think a lot of times we're ingrained like don't eat past 7pm and it's like okay, well, if an athlete has, let's say for you, for example, let's say you ran your 13.1 and you're doing your 150 days. Let's say you ran your 13.1 in the morning, let's say you had your normal meals, but let's say your dinner was at 5.30 or6, right, by 8.30 or 9 o'clock you're probably going to be hungry again, right? So you need to have that bedtime snack. Now what we want to think about is we want to think about protein and carbohydrates before bed. Right, we don't just want to have a carbohydrate before bed. The protein or the casein is going to help us recover overnight.

Speaker 2:

So one of my favorite things to do is a Greek yogurt bowl and throw in some fruit or granola or some peanut butter for a healthy fat. Some of my clients love doing a big protein shake before bed, so they'll do, you know, some protein powder with Greek yogurt and milk and fruit. I'm a big girl of doing cereal. I love doing the seven Sunday cereal with a big glass of whole milk in there and some berries. So incorporating some sort of protein with carbohydrate before bed can actually aid your recovery, especially if you're someone who is eating dinner, you know, a little bit earlier and then by the time you go to bed you're hungry. We don't want to be going to sleep and waking up in the middle of the night hungry.

Speaker 2:

It's also really great for people who struggle to eat early in the morning before morning workouts. Trying to get in some extra calories before bed kind of help kickstart you for that next morning. So nighttime snacks aren't for everyone. I mean, some people may experience some GERD or struggle eating right before bed, but I think for a lot of people that are not going to bed until 11 o'clock, you're going to need that at 8.30 or 9, right, and it actually can benefit you rather than hurt you. So yeah, I'm definitely. If you follow me on Instagram, I always post my nighttime snacks and they're like my favorite part of the day. So definitely don't get rid of your nighttime snacks. Just utilize the correct type of nighttime snack to aid in your recovery process.

Speaker 1:

No, that's good. You post a lot of good stuff. So I'll link your Instagram, grace's Grip, below and we'll talk more about it at the end of the podcast. But so I want to go into to fueling during training and before training for running.

Speaker 1:

This is something for me that has really helped create consistency in my output, in my training. I think a lot of times I used to get up and go train first thing in the morning, not having really anything before I trained, and then I trained, fasted a lot of times, even when it would get you know over an hour, and there would be days where I would like go out for a run and I'd be like, oh my gosh, I just don't have it today, like what the heck's going on, and then like I'd go about my day, eat and then run in the night and be fine. But I think that's one of the biggest things that has helped me create even more consistency in my training is like I was. I was able to get by, like I was still able to do a lot of my training, run some big races and whatnot, but I was leaving a ton on the table because there was some inconsistency in my fueling. So I guess talk a little bit about the importance of training before or fueling before your training and also during.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I like to call this pre-intra and post-fueling. So I kind of break it up into those three categories and this is a topic I talk a lot about with my clients and it's something we can really fine tune. So let's start with pre-training. So I always tell clients we kind of have three windows for pre-training, okay, and we kind of look at that. You know, two to three hours before is gonna be something like a little bit of a bigger meal, right. So let's put into perspective and say that you're running at eight in the morning, okay, so at 5.30 or 6 am. And I'm talking someone who's going for a longer run here. So let's take Pierce, for example. He's running 13.1. Let's say he runs at 8.30 in the morning, at 5.30 or 6, I would say he needs to have a big bowl of oatmeal with a banana, some peanut butter for a little bit of fat and protein, maybe a small amount of protein powder in the oatmeal for a little bit of protein and some honey and you know, and some fruit there. So that's going to give him the complex carbohydrate that's going to be sustained energy rather than fast energy. If anyone's eating oatmeal within an hour of running, let's change that up because that's a complex carb that's full of fiber. We want to stay away from complex carbohydrates within you know, 60 to 30 minutes of training trying to keep that you know a little bit longer to have the body digest it. Then we kind of have that next window there.

Speaker 2:

So let's say you have a little bit longer till your run. Or this is even for people who are evening runners, where they eat lunch and then they like kind of just go straight into their run at 5 pm. Well, they definitely need, like another pre-snack. So this would be where we're looking at anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes before training. We want 15 to 30 grams of carb. So a great example of banana is about 25 to 30 grams of carb, depending on the size of the banana. A little applesauce pouch, which is my favorite, are 15 grams. You could do, you know, depending on the size of dates. Like five dates that are smaller is about 30 grams of carb. You could do a pack of pretzels, some graham crackers, whatever you feel like is your favorite pre-workout. My personal favorites are dates, applesauce and fig bars. Those are just what personally sits well with me.

Speaker 2:

But that 15 to 30 minute window is really important because if you're eating, you know three hours before and then not eating again, you know it's just a little too long. If then you think about how long you're running for, so pre-fueling we're thinking. If it's an hour before, we're thinking more like 50 to 60 grams of carb. If it's 30 minutes before, we're thinking 30 grams of carb. And then if that 15 minute window, it's just a small little source of food.

Speaker 2:

If you're someone who struggles, we need to train the gut. So don't go straight into trying to add in all these carbs before Slowly start to add it in. Maybe you're starting with half a banana before and then getting to a full banana and then trying the banana on a piece of toast. So it's a slow approach. But remember, within 60 minutes we want to think no fiber, pretty much no protein and no fat, so we want to keep it like a simple carbohydrate.

Speaker 2:

These are going to be things that are quick to digest. These are like fruit. This is like anything white, like white bread. Right, we're thinking pretzels, graham crackers, fruit snacks, simple carbohydrates that are quick to digest and then give you that fast source of energy. Then, when we go into intra-fueling, this is where I think a lot of people like mess up. If there were one thing that I feel like people go wrong in marathon training, it is their intra-fuelueling. Because people come to me and they're like, yeah, I'm doing like one gel every hour and I'm like, right, because one gel is like 25 ish grams, depending on the gel right, it's a carbs gel yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. So it's about 25 grams, like if I think of you know, a normal, more in, it's 25 grams. Or huma gel, those are. You know a normal Morton, it's 25 grams. Or Humagel, those are, you know, 25 grams. So they're like I'm doing one every hour and I'm like you are so under fueled, right.

Speaker 2:

So what, I like to look at it and everyone's a little different with their numbers, but I like to really go, based on the research. So anytime we're over, kind of the 90 minute mark, I'll say like 30 to 60, as long as it's staying under two hours. So if someone's doing a longer-ish run, that's still under two hours. But you know, as part of training, or people that are running a half marathon under two hours, you know 30 to 60 grams of carb per hour is sufficient. If you can tolerate more, go for it right. Then when we get that two-hour mark, that's where we're hitting 60 to 90 grams of carb per hour. 60 to 90 grams of carb per hour.

Speaker 2:

So if you're thinking in your head, oh my gosh, how do I do that? Well, let's think about it. You could do two gels that are 30 grams of carb, but that would put you on the lowest end For a lot of my clients. I'll have them, do you know? One gel and like a scoop of Scratch Labs high carb or some type of carbohydrate drink in there. Or maybe they're alternating between like chews, like the scratch lab shoes, or honey stinger chews with a gel, but trying to get to that 60 to 90 grams of carb per hour.

Speaker 2:

I know for Pierce he was trying the carbs gel which I showed him, which is 50 grams of carb. He did that maybe with like a piece of fruit every hour and he was trying to reach those higher ends because we've been trying to train his gut to take in more fuel, so trying to get the higher, like 90, especially when he gets more into back into ultras, we're going to try to hit those higher numbers. So, for example, when Pierce is running his 13.1, most of you are probably going to think, oh, like he's just running 13.1. He doesn't need to fuel during it. Yeah, cause he's going to be running for like two hours for 150 days in a row.

Speaker 1:

Yes, he needs to fuel during, so we're going to try to keep Pierce a little bit on the higher end there. Yeah, and I want to add that too, because it's not only during your run that the carbs will help you, but what I've found is, as you're fueling well during your runs, it's going to help with your recovery, and so that's why it's so important. Grace has taught me like when I'm doing this, it's two hours and I could get by without it, but it's going to help me come back day after day that I'm actually fueling really well during the runs.

Speaker 2:

Exactly yeah, and for him it's the recovery piece. If he's running under fueled over time, 150 days in a row, he's going to break down. So we're trying to really dial in on what his pre, intra and post fuelings looking like. So for his, you know, post fueling I told him I go from the moment you step off that treadmill. Within that 30 to 60 minutes you need to get in a three to one or four to one ratio of carbs to protein. So I suggested for him the scratch labs recovery drink, which is a perfect four to one ratio of carbs to protein. So I suggested for him the scratch labs recovery drink, which is a perfect four to one ratio of carbs to protein. So we're actually looking for more carbs than protein post workout and then within that next hour he'll get his full kind of brunch in or full meal.

Speaker 2:

But I think post exercise people also make the mistake of grabbing just a protein shake. Yeah, that's great, but you're really missing, you know, repairing and restoring your glycogen that you just lost in those carbohydrates. So we need to make sure post-workout you're having carbs and protein for that perfect ratio of four to one more carbs to protein, right? If you look at a chocolate milk the back of a chocolate milk. It's a perfect four to one ratio of carbs to protein and that's why we say that that's such a good recovery and then he can focus on having that full meal.

Speaker 2:

But you know that pre, intra and post fueling is what's going to help him stay not injured and help him then recover. And the other thing I will say to like intra fueling, I think a lot of people kind of get nervous about like, oh well, like do I need it if I'm not running fast? Or like if I'm just training? And it's like those miles that you're logging are still miles on your feet whether you're running fast or not, right? So getting and practicing during training sessions is the best way to optimize your fueling, to be ready to go for a race.

Speaker 1:

For sure. Do you say that? Would you tell someone? Hey, like every time you run over an hour you should be fueling, or what are the like lengths that it's really important.

Speaker 2:

That's a good question. I do think it's very dependent on the individual and depending, like, how much carb they get in before their training session. If you're running like 70 minutes, like just over 60, and you have a good pre before, you're fine. Now, if you're like hitting that 90 minute mark, that's where I would say you probably should have something at the halfway point. You don't need to have 90 grams, but it is a good place to practice. So if you're starting to get past that 75 to 90 minutes, that's where I'd at least try to get in 30 to 60. So you know, if I was doing a longer cross training session when I was injured and on the bike for 80 minutes, I would try to have something halfway through because I was on it longer than an hour Um. But again, we're not going to need that highest end of need. But it still doesn't hurt to just fuel with carbohydrates. So you're not going to hurt yourself by doing too much Um. If anything, your body's going to. Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's really good. Let's talk about hydration and water and electrolytes. How important is it to hydrate during these runs and what are the recommendations that you typically give?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think you know this is definitely a tough question. Number one, just because everyone has different sweat rates and I know you know Pierce and I have talked a lot about sweat rates in general. For example, I am a very, very, very heavy sweater. I can taste the salt on my mouth. You can see the salt and I'm, you know my hair is wet. My body can. You can visibly see my sweat. I have some athletes who are not heavy sweaters. So, you know, assessing what your you know sweat rate is is good.

Speaker 2:

There's a lot of different great sweat tests out there. I normally just do it by body weight with clients where I'll have them weigh themselves before their run, so after their pre-run nutrition and fuel, and then use the restroom and weigh naked and then they get back from the run they'll take off their wet clothes, towel off, weigh themselves and then we'll take into account how many ounces they drank during and then we'll be able to know how much they need to replace. So you know, during exercise we have before exercise, during and after exercise right Before exercise, we're looking to like two to four hours before exercise we're trying to take in, you know, water, sports drinks about 5 to 10 milliliters per kilogram of body weight. This will allow for hydration and excretion of excess fluid before training. You know, sodium intake before exercise can help retain those fluids. You know, sometimes athletes try to like limit fluids before because they feel like it's stomach upset. But just making sure you have enough is better than that detrimental piece of not having enough During exercise.

Speaker 2:

Obviously the biggest thing we're looking for is sweat loss should be replaced. Now, not everyone runs with a handheld right, so some people are fine going for a 60, 70 minute run without any water, as long as they're having enough before replacing after. This is also a great place for someone's you know intra run to have some type of sodium in it, like using a carb drink, so we can track that hydration status again with that before and after exercise. Typically, what I look at for every, you know, one kilogram of body weight is approximately one liter of sweat loss. So that's how I'll typically record that we're looking for.

Speaker 2:

0.4 to 0.8 liters per hour of exercise is really what we're looking for for most athletes. You know, for activities lasting less than an hour, like I said, water is usually just sufficient For longer activities. That's where we're thinking more of the sports drinks. You know, replacing those electrolytes Hyponatremia is something of concern. This is called low blood levels of sodium or, like water, intoxication. This can occur when you're over hydrated or excessive sweat losses of sodium that are not replaced. So maybe you're over hydrating with water and you're not having enough electrolytes to replace back.

Speaker 2:

So I always recommend for clients, you know, if they're training over 60 minutes, we need at least 500 milligrams of sodium in there. Heavy sweaters we may need more, like a thousand, right? If you're training under 60 minutes you're fine with just water. But again, if you're a heavy sweater like myself or you're going to a hot yoga class, you may need more sodium. So it's very dependent on the person.

Speaker 2:

I have a few brands I really love for hydration. I love using the Scratch Labs hydration. They have an everyday hydration, a wellness hydration, and the super high carb. I love using the Thorne Catalyte hydration. I love the Trace Minerals hydration. So there's a lot of different options for hydration supplements. But again, you just want to make sure you're looking at if you're training over 60 minutes, we need greater than 500 milligrams of sodium.

Speaker 2:

If you're also training, you know, longer than 90, you'll also want to see carbohydrate added in there, right? So a lot of our sodium drinks can contain carbs. I think a lot of people think of liquid IV that contains 12 grams of carb. So that's not really the best hydration to use under 60 minutes, but it's great to use if you're training over 60 minutes. Lmnt is another really popular one. It doesn't contain carb, but it's high sodium. So if you're training over 60 minutes, it's not the best option if you don't have a carbohydrate source that you're also taking in. So that is something I always tell people is like really think about how long you're running and then we can get more in tune with our sodium losses and how much sodium we need to replace.

Speaker 1:

That's really good.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. Then after exercise you know we're really just looking for that weight tracking to see you know how much we're losing. But again, I always just tell clients don't chug your water immediately after. Just try to get in like 16 to 24 ounces of water, you know, within that 30 to hour minute mark, but trying not to chug your fluids can cause a lot of the upset stomach.

Speaker 1:

That's good. And one thing I've noticed too is I've gotten deeper into hydration and the importance and looking at how much sodium is in things Like you look at like a Gatorade or like a prime and there's like no sodium in those, and so I think that's maybe you talk a little bit about that how important it is to actually look at the contents of sodium in these, and so I think that's maybe you talk a little bit about that how important it is to actually look at the contents of sodium in these drinks, because there's some very popular drinks that just are electrolyte drinks but they don't have any sodium. So it really it really like I'm really confused why they call them, like you know, sports drinks and and and having electrolytes, when there's like hardly any sodium.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So again, we have multiple electrolytes than just sodium. You know we're thinking of potassium and magnesium and I think for a lot of people too, you know they're looking at typical Gatorade which actually really isn't high in sodium but it's high in carbs, right. So it may be good for an endurance athlete, but it's not going to replace your sodium. So, like the Gatoral Lights is higher in sodium.

Speaker 2:

I always like to give the example. I have a client who was drinking body armor all the time and they were like, yeah, I'm getting all these electrolytes in. You know I'm a heavy sweater but I just don't feel good and I'm like there is no sodium in that, like barely any, right. So I think it's. You know, definitely look on the back of your label and see how much sodium is in that. I'll also link have Pierce link to this. I have a free hydration guide on my website that goes through each electrolyte supplement and that would be a good thing to just kind of look into it and see. You know, what products do I recommend? How much is in them? Right? For example, ultima has like no sodium. That's a good everyday hydration.

Speaker 2:

If you're looking for something higher in sodium, we're looking for greater than 500 milligrams of sodium and that's kind of that like sweet spot there of over. And then we have ones that are, you know, up to a thousand. I mean we have some that are even more than that. But if you're someone who is a heavy sweater and you look at the back of the label and it's 250 milligrams, it's probably not high enough for you from a sodium perspective. So, yes, definitely look at the label on the back.

Speaker 2:

This is something I talk with people. A lot about is we're just not getting enough electrolytes in, and even if you're not a heavy sweater, we still need electrolytes. Right, if you're not salting your food either, you're going to need even more sodium. So that's something I always think about. As a heavy sweater, I try to salt my food and I drink electrolytes on the daily basis because I know for me that is what makes me feel better. And you know the concern of hyponatremia is high, especially when you're a heavy sweater and a heavy output. So you can drink a lot of water, but it doesn't mean that you're hydrating if you have no electrolytes to also replace.

Speaker 1:

That's. That's really good and really helpful. Um, so let me you you shared like your favorite electrolytes. I don't think I asked you what are your favorite, um, gels or, uh, carb sources.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love that question. So, um, you know, as a you know collegiate runner, we never really got to run like long races where we were fueling during. So, you know, post-college, you know, I still haven't ran my first marathon. Hopefully I will be here in the in the next year or so, um, coming back from an injury. But I've obviously trialed every single product and I know what works well for me, especially for long cross training sessions, um, you know, being on a bike for over 90 minutes, and what works well for me, even like pre-runs.

Speaker 2:

Now, my absolute favorite, just like pre-run if I have 15 minutes, is an applesauce pouch. I love the organic ones from Costco. They're my favorite. I also love to do that's it bars. It's just a dried fruit bar. Dates are another one I love. Those are kind of my go to for if I don't have a lot of time. I also just love doing a banana. So I like keeping it pretty simplistic.

Speaker 2:

When it comes to intra fueling, scratch labs chews are one of my absolute favorites. And, gel wise, I think huma gels are fantastic. Those come from some more natural sources. So for someone like me who experiences a lot of GI distress, those ones sit a little bit better for me. The maple syrup untapped ones are also great as well. And then I know a lot of my clients have liked the new carbs gel, which is the 50 grams of carb, which is great because you're getting in 50 in one packet, which is fantastic, so that's a really, really good one. Um, I know Pierce likes the date fix, which is a newer um gel, that that that recently came out. Um, a lot of clients like the SIS or the cyst gels. Um, I would say Morton gels are tough for people. Not everyone likes them.

Speaker 1:

Um, so why do you think people don't like them? Just the texture. Is that what you hear?

Speaker 2:

It's the texture and there's no taste to them. Yeah, um. So I have some clients who love sweetness and some who don't want to taste anything. So a large part of what I do, you know, working with clients one-on-one is we really trial a lot of products during their training to find what they like best. So I'll send people a list. I'm like buy one of each one of these, try them in all your runs. Let's break down which one you like best.

Speaker 2:

And everyone's fueling plan looks so different. That's why I keep my services very individualized, because no person is going to have the same fueling as someone else. They may use some similar products, but everyone's running for different amounts of time. Everyone tolerates different things. I think, just trying what works best for you. I have some clients who just absolutely cannot do gels and they hate them. So we have to do more whole food sources. That is tough but it's definitely doable. You know, I have some clients who do more like dates during runs, or they'll do fruit snacks during runs. I have some who do candy. I have an ultra runner too who would do like mashed sweet potatoes or, excuse me, mashed normal potatoes, like white potatoes. So you know, everyone does something a little bit different, but the key is just it needs to be a simple carbohydrate if you're using that during a training session.

Speaker 1:

That's really good. Yeah, I, I like a lot of those. I use the Date Fix. There's this new brand I don't know I'll have to send you them called the Honey Plus, if you've never had them. It's just like straight honey. It's great.

Speaker 1:

I really like the Morton gels. They go down really easy. Digest. Carbs are good too. No, those are all really good. And I had a question for you. No, those are all really good. And I, oh I had a question for you when it comes to gels and timing, like we give these recommendations on, you know, 30 to 60 grams per hour if it's around 90 minutes or so, but if it's above two hours, taking in 60 to 90 grams per hour, um, what are your thoughts on, like taking a 50 grams of carb gel versus like two 25s spaced out? Do you know, like, is there any science on like how that impacts your performance? Um, or like are are some people only able to digest a certain amount of carbs at once and would be better off doing a smaller gel more frequently? What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2:

That's a great question and honestly it does kind of go very individual on like what they can tolerate. You know, for some people they cannot even fathom taking down an entire 50 gram gel in one sitting, so they're kind of drink. I have a lot of people who like sip on it or like eat gels like throughout the entire hour, as long as they're getting it in within the hour. I like to go time based with clients so we're thinking either you know every 20 minutes or we're thinking every 30 or every 45 minutes. That's kind of how I like to break it down with clients. So I like to do like you know half and half in that hour, you know half and half in the second hour, because I think what then happens to is people run into like that first hour they are kind of behind because they like started running so they're not like immediately taken in in 30 minutes and they get to 60 and they're like I'm behind already. So I usually like for some people I love to do like the every 20 minutes because they can do smaller amounts every 20 minutes and that seems to sit well. But then I also have some people who like just do one big one at the 30 minute mark of every hour. So totally depend on the person. I mean, it does take some time for that to turn into fuel. So just you know, keep in mind as well from that perspective, like you still have to be aware of the timing between those gels. But if you still have similar timing between you know it's going to be a good output.

Speaker 2:

But for people with GI distress, an entire load of carb at one time is not going to go well. So I think breaking up the carbohydrates throughout the hour is definitely easier for people from a digestion perspective. We also don't want you to feel too full in your stomach or like need to go to the bathroom. So I think you know everyone tolerates things a little bit different. I would tell you right now, males can tolerate a lot more than females. So I feel like guys stomachs are a little bit more made of steel and they can tolerate a little bit more carbohydrate in one sitting. That's also why it's nice for clients to use a carb drink with a gel in that hour, because then they're sipping on the drink throughout the hour.

Speaker 2:

So they're getting the carbs kind of throughout the hour in the drink and then they have the gel halfway and that allows them to kind of really focus on just like consistently having carbohydrate throughout that hour.

Speaker 1:

That's really good. That's super helpful. You know when you're running and if you're running a lot you're fueling a lot. Gels could get kind of expensive. So do you have any like? Have you run into that problem? I've gotten asked that question a couple times on social media. Um, but do you have any recommendations on how to feel? For?

Speaker 2:

uh, I actually I actually have a client I'll make sure I send her the podcast because she'll know who she is who was like Grace. I just like these are getting so expensive. Like, can we figure out another option? And we figured out another option. There's really easy, like Amazon things where you can almost buy a little like pouch that looks like a gel and you can fill it with whatever you want. So we started filling it with some maple syrup, which was a lot cheaper, um, and kind of did some like maple syrup during her runs, which was pretty easy. And then we started just started buying a little bit of some of the cheaper products and kind of substituting with some whole food sources and some candy. So candy is a lot cheaper.

Speaker 2:

Like a sour patch it's it's just simple carbohydrate, like people think something is healthier than another thing and it's just simple carbohydrate, right. So I think people can tolerate some of those. Like raisins is another really good one that you can do. Or dried fruit during a training session. Dried fruit is pretty easy to get down. Fruit snacks are a favorite of some of my clients. Dates you can do. You just have to be careful with whole food sources. They are a little bit higher in fiber. So as long as your stomach can tolerate it, then we're fine. I have clients who take down full bananas during runs and they're fine. So it really depends the person. But yeah, gels are expensive. It doesn't mean we have to use gels. I do have clients who don't use any gels because they hate them, so there are other things that we can use. I have clients who eat Morton bars during runs or Bobo's bars during runs. So if you can tolerate those things, then we just work together on creating a plan that meets your needs that uses more whole food sources.

Speaker 1:

That's really good. Well, I want to round things off with two more questions. One I want to ask you if you had, like, if you had someone with you one-on-one and you're like, hey, this is something you really need to know, or biggest piece of advice when it comes to fueling for endurance, running what comes to mind Like what would be your biggest thing, and it may be something we already talked about.

Speaker 2:

Number one just eat enough. That's the number one thing I will say is make sure you're eating enough and if you don't know if you're eating enough, work with a dietician to figure out if you're eating enough, because that is the number one thing that's going to cascade into worse symptoms or injuries, et cetera. Just number one thing is like are we eating enough? And I would say the number two thing, if I could say a number two is like carbs are your best friend. They are not your enemy, no matter what age you are, no matter what ability you are. It doesn't matter, right? Carbs are not going to make you just gain weight all of a sudden. They are going to help you fuel your training sessions and your races, and if you don't have carbohydrate, you're not going to reach your goals. So that's my biggest thing is eat enough food and eat your carbs.

Speaker 1:

That's really good. Thank you so much. Well Grace, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was extremely helpful. Where can listeners find you on social and also if they need help, if they need a dietician to help them, how can they reach you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so my Instagram is just Grace's Grit no apostrophe with the Graces just Grace's Grit and my website is gracesgritcom. You can book an intro call with me. It's just a free 30-minute discovery call. Learn a little bit more about you, learn a little bit more about me and see if we'd be a good fit. I have a lot of different options for programs and services, so you can always shoot me a DM on Instagram too if you just want to learn more, and I'm always a message away. I try to put a lot of nutritional education on my Instagram and make it very open to followers to just want to learn more about nutrition, and I have some free guides on my website available as well, and a really great blog of different you know topics and things like that for you to follow along on. But yeah, I really enjoyed being on here. It's been an honor being your dietitian and kind of helping you, and I'm excited to see how your fueling helps you break a Guinness Book of World Record.

Speaker 1:

Awesome. Thank you so much and to everyone listening, go out and run your race.