Let's Talk Cardano

Bringing Blockchain Payments to Supermarkets

• Episode 19

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Join us as we speak with Joshua Krüger, Head of Growth at DFX Swiss, alongside Ralph Hofacker, Co-Founder and Co-CEO of Brick Towers, about how blockchain payments are being used in everyday retail settings. This episode explores how ada payments are enabled in over 130 Spar supermarkets across Switzerland, including the infrastructure behind Open CryptoPay and how fiat and crypto systems interact in real time. The conversation also covers merchant incentives, user experience challenges, and how blockchain-based payments can support faster transactions, lower fees, and broader adoption in real-world environments.

Disclaimer: These podcasts are produced by the Cardano Foundation. The views expressed in these podcasts are solely those of the participants and do not represent the opinions of the Cardano Foundation. These podcasts are for informational purposes only, and are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, or investment advice. Listeners should consult their own advisors before making these types of decisions. The Cardano Foundation does not guarantee or make any warranties as to the accuracy, timeliness, or suitability of the information in these podcasts. The Cardano Foundation has no responsibility or liability for: any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies in these podcasts; or for any decision, other acts or omissions made in connection with your use of the information presented in these podcasts. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by the Cardano Foundation or by the participants in these podcasts.

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SPEAKER_00

Welcome to Let's Talk Cardano, presented by the Cardano Foundation. In each episode, we delve deep into the transformative world of blockchain technology. Join us as we explore how blockchain is reshaping industries from finance to supply chain and talk with some of the key pioneers at the forefront of this revolution. All right here on Let's Talk Cardano.

SPEAKER_01

In this episode of Let's Talk Cardano, we speak with the teams behind DFX and Brick Towers about how blockchain can support everyday payments and integrate digital assets into retail systems.

SPEAKER_02

So welcome to Let's Talk Cardano. I'm Jacob, and with me today are Joshua from DFX Swiss and Ralph from Brick Towers. Together they built the infrastructure that makes it possible to pay with ADA at 137 spar stores across Switzerland, live in production right now. So in this session, we're going to break down how it works, what it took to get there, and what it means for where Cardano is headed. Joshua, Ralph, welcome. Hi, nice to meet you all. Thank you very much. Great to be here. Great to have you both. So I'd say before we get into the details, could you each give the listeners a quick sense of who you are and what uh each of your respective companies do or does? Let's start with you, Ralph.

SPEAKER_04

Perfect. So I'm Ralph, co-founder and co-CEO of Bricktowers. With Bricktowers coming from the more threadfi world, uh, we are focusing on programmable finance systems for both individuals and institutions, so covering both the B2C and B2B angles. And our current focus is mainly the development of our consumer mobile app verbal, um, where we are bringing the programmable savings and payments part to an everyday person, basically.

SPEAKER_02

Not the shirt.

SPEAKER_04

Perfect.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, then I go forward. Nice to meet you all. I'm Josh, head of growth at DFX, um, uh on and off-ramp provider in the Switzerland, regulated in the Switzerland. And so far, we're offering to on and off-ramp with over 80 currencies. So far, we are working on integrating more and more actually with Cardano. Ada, we did one more, one big one. We are very happy to do. So, and what's very interesting, we invented the Open Crypto Pay last year and made some great partnerships along the way with Binance, with Kucoin, and also with Cardano. And yeah, very happy to talk about all the interesting parts of the payment solution.

SPEAKER_02

Sweet. Thanks so much for the introductions. And once again, it's great to have you both. So in my mind, I think most people who still think think of crypto think of something that you trade as a speculative asset. Um, so I'm kind of curious how you both ended up building something like building infrastructure for everyday retail payments. Maybe you could start, Joshua.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, sure. If we think about crypto and if we think about where we would like to go with crypto, I think we all can agree that only stored in our wallet is not the end goal. So we decided to make it possible to spend your cryptocurrencies with your wallets. So you don't need to connect your wallet, you don't have any kind of security issues, you just scan a QR code, confirm the transaction, and that is. And yeah, I think this is something we really need for crypto in general, um, to make it possible to have more use cases. Everyone can yeah, makes it can have the opportunity to spend to work with crypto to use it every day. It's just getting into the every every people's life, let's say. Couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_02

Ralph, anything there?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I mean, uh just to add on to uh what was Joshua saying, when you have been working uh in the traditional finance industry, then um you kind of understand uh all of the contract construction parts, the operations, uh the infra, and all of the regulation around it. And when you then dive into um crypto or let's say blockchain uh technology, smart contracts, programmable finance, and you really understand uh the potential of this type of technology, then I mean, as Tusha said, it's not only about self-custodying or custodying your crypto in your wallet, the whole financial infrastructure can be redefined based on the technology. And we already see this happening um in front of our eyes over the last years. A lot of uh financial plumbing has already been moved onto chain. And uh for us, uh it's really great, and I think the only way uh to be part of this uh new financial paradigm and uh build on top of it.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. And so I think blockchain has been able to move value faster and cheaper than banks for years now. I mean, that's what personally drew me into crypto is kind of the opening the use cases for people. I saw, wow, I don't need a bank anymore. Wow, I don't need a PayPal, just transfer value. But why do you think it's taken so long to actually show up in a supermarket use case, for example?

SPEAKER_03

Let me pick that up. I basically think if we look at the yeah, Web2 companies, I call them, or I prefer to call them web 2 companies, they are well-etabled companies who look at crypto as yeah, hype, probably, or did that in the past. So for them, crypto needs to prove itself and we need to adapt on it and yeah, build things like open crypto pay with Urbal together to show use case for crypto to show we are here to stay, we don't leave, and we are the future. So I think we have proven it now, and so uh we can move on and actually change something in the future.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I mean to add on to this, I mean, uh Church was fully right. There are a bit of different circumstances uh here, let's say in Europe, or specifically here with us in Switzerland, compared to the rest of the world. You have to acknowledge that uh paying merchants or let's say in restaurants with crypto, for example, Bitcoin, is not necessarily something new, right? Uh I had the honor to be in El Salvador back in 2021, before Bukele made Bitcoin become a legal tender, and as such, establish a lot of such uh payment use cases. But of course, it's a very different uh environment, very different circumstance. There's less, let's say, established incumbents that might have already developed uh quite some substantial and then also regulated solutions for such alternatives that have a lot of benefits on the consumer and the merchant side to actually take place. And having achieved this here specifically in Switzerland, with all the established providers, uh, we have Twint here, for example, which is the payment uh solution that is tied to your bank account and phone number, uh, to have an alternative to that is very challenging. And I'm actually very uh impressed uh by uh DFX and the Open Crypto Pay Initiative, and I'm very proud with us at Urpal to use that to provide such an alternative.

SPEAKER_02

Awesome. So if I'm understanding it right, DFX is essentially acting as sort of a bridge between the crypto world and the traditional banking finance system. I'm curious to learn a bit more about this bridge specifically. A, how does it work? B, why is it so important? And finally, what what breaks down without this bridge?

SPEAKER_03

Sure, yeah. This is I tackle it from this side. What is it? It's basically fiat to crypto to a non-custodial wallet. So at DFX, we provide a virtual iBurn accounts for Swiss-based uh customers and also working on delivering this for all the European. And how does it work? Send money from your bank account to your DFX virtual iBurn. We at DFX we instantly transfer the money if it's on the DFX side to the crypto you bought, you select it, and transfer it to your non-custodial wallet. So I would say this pretty easy and the best way actually to buy crypto, cost not your keys, not your tokens. Actually, one of my um most used sentences. And what breaks down without it? I mean, we are the hub, we connect the traditional finance world with the crypto world, and without companies like DFX, it's very hard or not even possible to spend your crypto or to yeah, connect merchants like Spar, who mostly prefer to have fiat money, and yeah, the crypto native users. So without DFX, it won't even be possible to pay with ADA in the spa market. So I think a lot would break down if we do.

SPEAKER_02

So let's make this concrete, because I think this is where it gets really interesting for listeners. So let's say someone walks into a shop, they open up the herbal app, they scan a QR code at the checkout, and then they pay with their ADA. But what's actually happening like behind the scenes in this moment? Is the merchant receiving ADA directly?

SPEAKER_03

Give us a walkthrough. Depends on the merchant, actually. We have some merchants who love to have crypto and love to receive crypto, and then that's it. It's just a transfer from one wallet to another and settled by the open crypto pay solution. So it's sent from your urban wallet to the merchant's wallet, and that is. On the checkout, it's coming out like a bill, like you paid by cash, it's like a standard. Just on the bottom, they're saying you paid by uh crypto, and that that's it. Uh, for the user, it's pretty easy. For the market, it's also pretty easy. And it's yeah, I would say even cheaper than the traditional payments, paying by card, paying by yeah. I won't call names here, but we all know what I mean. And it's cheaper than by paying with card and stuff like this, even for I would say 66% cheaper. So there's a real difference also for the merchant. And what I would like to point out is that the customer, the person who holds the crypto in the herbal wallets and scans the QR code is not paying any fees. The fees are on the merchant side. So yeah, I think this is like the perfect solution for everyone because merchants normally have way higher fees, and with open crypto pay, they reduce. And on the other side, the user don't need to pay any additional fees.

SPEAKER_02

Sounds fantastic. And I'm curious a bit more about the herbal app itself. So I feel like most crypto apps, they were built for people who already know crypto, full of wallets, seed phrases, etc. And I think the herbal app feels and looks quite different from that. So, what was the thinking behind that decision, that design decision? And why did you focus on getting non-crypto users comfortable using the app?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's what on Jake. Thanks a lot for this introduction. I mean, uh, as I said in the beginning, uh, we come more, let's say, from the traditional finance sector. And uh as such, um, you set the bar quite high in terms of the utility, the product benefits, and the level of usability uh that you expect for an everyday person to enjoy, uh, given that uh the existing apps in the finance, banking, neo-banking space already have a high level of automation that abstracts many complexities uh away from the user and only provides the benefits basically. And with crypto, you have we have to be honest with ourselves, crypto wallets themselves, to some extent, up to this day, the majority still expect you to be a bit more on the technical side, have an understanding of which chain you're on, what network fees you have to pay, layer one, layer two, bridging, swapping, time to final settlement, and all of this lingo, for us, it's absolutely fine, and there's a growing number of people for whom this is vocabulary that uh rings uh a bell. But for the 99.9% of other people, including uh the vast majority of my friends uh from my childhood, uh, from school, from university, from work, they don't have a clue about it. And I, being now in this Web3 crypto space for almost 10 years, I just decided I'm not fine with that. We have now, given the blockchain technology itself and everything around Web3, undergoes a level of maturity growth that deserves now to develop solutions that make it easier for people to use with a similar convenience level of traditional uh finance apps. Uh, herbal is meant to be such a solution. So our overall ambition is that our grandmothers uh can use this app in a very convenient and feeling secure kind of way. And it takes a bit to get there. Um we are early now, we only launched in January, but we now have already uh a few very important use cases covered for spending, for example, with the uh the ADA use case and for saving with and uh for each other. And we're gonna extend this, of course, in the next few months and years uh to a vast uh set of use cases in programmable finance.

SPEAKER_02

That's great. I think you're covering a really important step there for the masses because a lot of these apps, you know, they're so obscured with, as I said, the seed phrases or certain elements that can really add a level of complexity to the to the um use of the app. So I think that's really important what you guys are doing there. And I I think it's uh it's going to bring be easier to bring into the masses if those levels are obscured.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. I mean it's important that the the people, um, when they use uh an application, that they are mostly concerned with the benefits uh the application provides and not with the how it all works together to provide these benefits. And there, there's a huge uh room still to provide. And the blockchain and uh crypto technology has so many good aspects with smart contract uh-based solutions that you can have such benefits that uh do not yet exist in traditional finance apps. And uh we are very keen uh to develop this further, of course.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and also with not scaring them away with the risks.

SPEAKER_04

Of course, we should also not in this aspect uh be too, let's say, uh negligible about it. I mean, it's it's relatively speaking still new technology, so you cannot expect the same level of safety and security you have uh from uh more traditional finance apps where you also have given the money is considered uh cash or bank money with the state guarantees that are in place uh for certain accounts that you have with a bank compared to crypto accounts that you have in self-custody. You are the guarantee, not the state. But it's just an alternative, right? It's better for people to have different choices and then also to diversify, specifically. Unfortunately, nowadays, with all of these geopolitical conflicts that we are facing, we believe that in such situations it's even more important to have such an alternative.

SPEAKER_02

I absolutely agree. So it's great to give the consumers that that freedom to choose. So you're live in 137 spar stores in Switzerland right now. This news was announced just a few weeks ago, and I think the reception has been just phenomenal across the ecosystem and beyond. Um so I'm curious what what have you learned so far since this has gone live?

SPEAKER_03

I mean, what have we learned? We have learned a lot, so I I would say that the most important things are adoption needs time. I think this is one of the most important things we learned, and also people who don't understand crypto are more than the people who actually do. So we have the yeah, we have the work to do to explain them what is crypto, why is crypto better than fiat money and normal banking rails. And for for the native cryptos, this is so easy to understand because we we as the native cryptos, we know this is better, this is coming, we see it, we see the X stocks, we see all the upcoming things getting tokenized, and and the big money, the big money is already evolving on the blockchain, and the normal user is like always a little bit left behind. So we have the yeah, we have the to do do the work and to explain what is better at crypto. And I think this is for me personally, I think this is the most important part. But if we definitely look at the spar markets, it's not even the the fanciest crypto or payment solution when it's the it's the fastest, it's the one works at the thousandth time the best way, and I think we provide this open crypto pay, and this is something we also learned.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I saw the the video on X of Ralph in the spar store using the the app, and it was it was amazing just how quickly it was processed. I almost couldn't believe it. Ralph, any notes there? What have you learned from this?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I think that is a quite significant achievement, uh to be honest. Uh, I mean, I'm still waiting for threat or for Sandro's uh judgment, as they were saying that they're going uh to soon check it out themselves. But for me, I mean, as I said before, I'm I'm it's not the first time I try or I have been uh using um crypto um to pay uh in uh for for some kind of service. But normally it's a it is a very stressful situation to some extent because when you are using other types of wallets and other types of payment solutions, very often I then think in this moment, do I have the right wallet? Do I have the right coin in my wallet? Uh do I know where to find the pay button uh in order to launch uh the QR code scanning on the app that I'm using correctly? And that puts an unnecessary level of stress. How long does it take when I do this all uh and I scan the QR code and I make the paint, does it work? And then most often it didn't work to some extent, and I was really upset. And my personal experience, having done it four or five times now, I have to honestly say I'm I'm I'm I'm happy with uh how easy we made it on the actual app to uh access the QR code scan. It's just on the home screen, one click away. And then when you scan the QR code, first of all, it's important for the people already at the merchant site, the personnel, uh, for them to make it easy. Otherwise, it will also not work because they are also under stress with all the people waiting in the queue, right? And if you just tell them you want to pay with crypto, they press a button, then you scan another QR code, then you would scan for traditional uh banking rails. Uh and the payment uh after you uh authenticate uh the transaction on Urban. I don't know, uh Joshua, what do you have as an average time for completion, but I think uh usually it's like five seconds, six seconds or so more or less, and that's I mean, not very different to a contactless uh payment with your credit or debit card, right? And that's I think quite nice.

SPEAKER_03

Sorry. I can I can say it's it's if we look at the technical part, it's it's faster than paying by card. But actually, it also depends on the person who's handling the wallet in front of the cashier desk.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so really I'm I'm very uh happy about it. And um, yeah, uh I also, of course, spread the news uh on X waiting for the ADA community uh to give some feedback. We have already some meetings planned uh to test it out and um get some further feedback, but so far overwhelmingly positive.

SPEAKER_02

Great to hear. And let's quickly discuss the flip side to that coin, which is the walls and the challenges that you've run into so far in this. What's been the hardest part?

SPEAKER_03

The hardest part, actually dealing with big companies who are well established, who has a lot of time, are not in a hurry to implement something new, you need to explain them. And I think it's not really hard, but it it takes time, and we are in a in a state where we would love to get it implemented everywhere. Because we personally we think this is the best way to pay, because we are crypto natives, would love to pay with ARDA, with with the herbal wallet everywhere. Imagine going in in some some other markets, paying your new laptop with with your your cryptocurrencies and just walking out and and doing all your uh Degen stuff on the on your new laptop paid with with crypto. And yeah, this would be the thing. And yeah, I would love to see that. And actually, this is the I would say the hardest part dealing with the parties who has a lot of time explaining them how the system is working, why this is the future, and yeah, this is this is it.

SPEAKER_02

Just getting them on board basically.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, kind of.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, takes a while to to warm them up.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, if we talk to them, they love it. But we need to talk and explain them first, and we also need to explain them how crypto works in general. Yeah. So this takes time.

SPEAKER_04

And I mean, it goes back to what you said earlier, Joshua, right? That uh there's still this notion. Of speculation of something that is rather not necessarily to the same level acceptable as your uh traditional fiat currency, and uh you need to do a lot of uh discussion, a lot of convincing in order for people who are not familiar with the technology and with crypto uh to get them uh convinced. Yeah, that's really tricky.

SPEAKER_03

But if I if I think back as I was a child and I I got my first banking card, and my mom told me, No, pay with your card, and I was like, Oh my god, what do I need to do? And I think for the most people, this is exactly the same thing paying with crypto. And if they do it every day, it's like the normal way. But we need to get there somehow.

SPEAKER_02

I'm curious about some of the reactions that that you've gotten so far. So, Josh, you mentioned that merchants can receive up to 66% lower transaction fees. Have they reacted to you in any way or have they shared their opinion so far for the ones that have actually implemented this?

SPEAKER_03

If you drop that fact, they all are interested. Because if we also look at the Switzerland and the EU-based customers, we also only or mostly accept American payment methods. So the Americans have or have the m the the might to decide what we can do with our payments. There's Visa, there's MasterCard, there's PayPal, there's Apple Pay, Google Pay, and this is all American companies. So if we come up with something which is invented in the Switzerland, which is mostly, I would say crypto is kind of based nowhere. So there's no one who can tell you what to do. This is on-chain, this is blockchain, and everyone see what is what is going on. And this is something which is very interesting for a lot of merchants too, having an alternative to the American payment rails.

SPEAKER_02

And just quick quick follow-up question there. Are the transactions through Open Crypto Pay? Are those on-chain as well?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yes. So you see everything on-chain. Um, so if you pay with crypto, you see your transaction going to the merchant wallet, and yeah, this is everything you can see. A lot of people also are kind of curious about privacy, but I can tell you we are also working on this one. So in the future, um I won't promise too much, but we are working on the privacy side too. And um, this is something we have in mind, we are working on it, and I think the future also brings some privacy.

SPEAKER_02

Cool, yeah, that's good to know because it just came to my mind as well that maybe some retailers wouldn't want their holdings, for example, to be public.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly, yes. Uh, in in the if I I can only talk for the ones we already onboarded, they have own wallets, so only for the open crypto payment solution. And what happened with their on-chain holdings is on their behalf. And if they accept or would like to have fiat, we instantly transfer it to fiat currencies and settle that on the bank accounts in 24 hours if it's the banking day. So, yeah, the most we are need we need to be honest, the most merchants prefer fiat money, and this is what we gotcha.

SPEAKER_02

And Ralph, what about some of the reactions from some of the customers who are actually using the herbal wallet? Have you seen anything out there? Any any general consensus on how people are feeling about after they use it for the first time?

SPEAKER_04

So I probably reuse the words that uh Joshua was uh uh saying before. Adoption takes time. So I cannot say that we now have already, let's say, hundreds of times uh when uh herbal was uh used in Sparstores. I have some uh personal experience that was shared with me where I can say that they were quite impressed, uh, specifically uh for the ones that have not yet dealt with crypto before and are on herbal as their first um app where crypto is involved. And um yeah, I mean they were saying that, as I said before, surprised that it is so smooth and also the payment is so fast, so the stress uh is taken away. And that's uh quite a positive one here. Uh maybe you can see, I know it's problematic. The Spar uh payment, it shows up here on my herbal wallet very nice.

SPEAKER_02

I'm actually I'm gonna go ahead and download the herbal. I should have done it before this meeting today.

SPEAKER_04

It's okay. I mean, I I don't know where you're host it. Uh maybe you can use the payment solution if you're in Switzerland. But yeah. I am, I'm in Switzerland.

SPEAKER_02

Ah, perfect. Yeah. I want to get your personal input. Exactly. Oh, next time. Next time.

unknown

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So that leads into my next question as well, which is why Cardano? So there's tons of blockchains to choose from when building an app like this. And I'm curious what led you to decide to build Cardano.

SPEAKER_04

So, I mean, from our uh point of view, when you build uh such uh solutions, um again, traditional finance impact, you really have to focus on infrastructure that is uh reliable, fault tolerant, uh, and um has a certain level of track record, specifically beyond the payments, which is very important, of course, uh to establish what Herbal is focusing on, long-term savings accounts. And uh Cardano specifically checks many of these boxes to a very large extent compared to many other uh chains out there, and uh that gives us uh the confidence uh to build uh on uh Cardano, uh to be honest, as we see it as like like a rocket, uh you can argue, or rock uh in the sea that is unbeatable, let's say. That's our standpoint, and uh Cardano is of course not the only chain, as uh similar to any other industry. There are multiple editors, which is good for the space, not bad. And herbal itself, uh being um seen as a long-term savings um product, uh, has to diversify in that sense as well. But I think Cardano has very unique features that others don't have and as such makes it uh qualifying very well for the for the herbal case.

SPEAKER_03

Joshua, anyone else there? I align with with Ralph, obviously, um because we haven't built on Cardano if we if we wouldn't like the blockchain. But also, yeah, we we need scalability, we we need resilience, and this is something Cardano is providing. And obviously, the the great community is some kind of extra benefit for us because yeah, there are Cardano believers, and it's like like a cult, I would say. And uh, I love to see that. I love to see the community really pushing forward, things who got built on on Cardano, and we also had a lot of positive feedback in the comments on Iggs. Yeah, and I couldn't agree more with Ralph. Uh that's it.

SPEAKER_02

Have you guys been involved in Cardano for a long time?

SPEAKER_04

On our side, um specifically uh one of the other co-founders, uh Iman's uh first he has been working uh with Cardano, he's our CISO uh co-CTO, if you want to call it like this. We have two CEOs, two CTOs. Um he has been with Cardano, I think, since 2017, 18 uh already uh doing stuff, and he's the the let's say the genius uh behind our uh Cardano solution on Europol.

SPEAKER_02

We gotcha.

SPEAKER_04

Ecosystem, we uh we have been at a Cardano uh summit uh last year, for example. Bricktowers, our company, has been part of a Cardano accelerator program with Cv Labs here in Souk last year. So we have we are very much uh committed um to Cardano.

SPEAKER_02

It's great to hear. Josh?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, if I look if I look at DFX, we obviously started our Cardano journey the last um month. But if I look at me personally, Cardano was was the altcoin who actually brought me to altcoins. So back in the days, I started my altcoin journey because I saw Cardano and yeah, bought it as my first altcoin. Before I just was like a Bitcoin maxi, obviously. I mined it, I everything on Bitcoin. And after that, I I saw this shiny new thing, Cardano, and I was impressed. And I bought it, and uh yeah, since then I'm I'm having a look at Cardano, I would say, and also stay invested.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, my story is pretty similar to that as well.

SPEAKER_03

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I mean, for me, very early on already, for me, Bitcoin emerged as a very, let's say, different type of stuff compared to something like uh a more programmable finance, programmable money solutions that you can build on uh the more programmable uh smart contract uh based uh blockchains like Cardano, right? Bitcoin is the the for me store of value, it's has incredible features, properties that no other asset itself has due to the uh the blockchain involved, but I would not compare it to this for the programmable finance capabilities, and it's also okay that it's not like this. It's good to have different types of solutions and assets in the space.

SPEAKER_03

I can I could add we as DFX are building on something which is uh giving the opportunity to have a layer two for Bitcoin and Bitcoin settlements. Also, this one is accepting EVM code, but this is something on another sheet. Um Bitcoin is also evolving.

SPEAKER_02

That's exciting. Looking forward to seeing the developments there.

SPEAKER_03

Happy to connect there too if um something people can just follow our X and see it.

SPEAKER_02

Sure thing. We do, we do. So just a couple more questions from my end. I'd like to look forward a bit. So let's say maybe five years from now, I'm curious what success would look like for each of you and for your partnership together. Um, what what's the realistic, meaningful version of this having worked at scale?

SPEAKER_03

Ah, this is I mean, if we are realistic, I think it's people using herbal app natively in stores to pay groceries, technical stuff, I don't know, pay for their flights, using it as yeah, like they used cash before. This is something we we would like to see, we work on, and I think this really could happen because we see governance building their own uh blockchain-based stable coins, and yeah, the the the future is is uh evolving and it's it's obviously on the blockchain. So this could be this could be it.

SPEAKER_04

As you can imagine, for me, this this success. Um I would attribute it to people using uh this technology like herbal and not noticing anymore what whatsoever that uh it runs uh on blockchain, that it's so embedded into their normal usage uh that the power of the blockchain provides uh better financial service without having to know about it. Of course, five years is not such a long-term um uh perspective, uh but I think that we're getting slowly and sadly uh there. We are now in 2006 already much further on this uh than we were like five years ago. And uh of course, uh for us specifically, the the payments part is important because it builds trust, it gets people to engage with such solutions on a daily basis, more or less. But of course, our uh long-term opportunity for people when they adopt such solutions is that they also see this as a valid scenario to manage their value, their wealth, their savings. And Robel is then primarily made for providing such services where the payments part is uh sort of integrated into the savings experience. So having a savings account where, let's say uh you are challenging uh your uh partner uh to lose five kilograms in the next three months, and if you don't manage to achieve that, uh she says uh then the money goes into the uh account, the savings account for your daughter, programmably, automatically, without any interference, because you agreed to this contract at the time this was established. Which traditional finance app is able to provide such a service? It's impossible because the underlying infrastructure is not made for this kind of uh service. It's a great vision.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I was I was also thinking about things five years for me. It's like if you look at the history of crypto, it's it's not uh it's it's long. So that's what I want to say. It's a it's a lot of time.

SPEAKER_04

I I can understand you, Joshua, because you're a bit uh younger than I am. The older the faster time goes, and uh therefore for me five years is nothing, and for you it's probably uh almost a decade. Yeah, obviously.

SPEAKER_03

But but also, yeah, I love the I love to think about the future. Um I mean just paying your parking tickets with crypto could be would be so cool. Just walk out and go to the cinema, or if there are still cinemas, but uh paying their tickets, go to a concert and just use your app, pay it with it, and that's it. This is so cool.

SPEAKER_04

What you described there is basically this feeling that you have, this empowerment, right? So so you you you have, let's say, the ability to do something where you are not dependent on uh a necessity like a bank account uh or a traditional payment solution where you are giving away some of the data that you don't necessarily have to give away because you hold already something in your wallet, and this should be enough to pay because this has value. And such solutions they empower you to be actually independent of such solutions. That's that's a real important thing to have nowadays.

SPEAKER_03

And you always have your own money or how we call it cryptos in your pocket. So it's not a bank who's managing it, it's it's yourself. It's absolutely good.

SPEAKER_02

Awesome. Well, my last question is one for the viewers. Let's say that there's someone listening out there, they're thinking of developing or building something on Cardano, or just thinking of getting involved in any way in Cardano. I'm just curious what advice you would have for them as some as two individuals who have been involved for a while.

SPEAKER_04

Maybe I can start. Uh, I think from my point of view, the most important advice, and that maybe it's not necessarily specific to Cardano or to uh blockchain, but in general, that uh don't start with the technology uh itself, but with a real-world use case. So think about something that you feel is a problem that is not yet solved in the way that you think it should, and then build the solution uh around it. Because we know, I mean, the challenge is not what blockchains or the tech around can do. We know it's absolutely powerful and can achieve a lot. But where is it actually used to solve a meaningful problem better than any existing solution? And the Spar Payments case is an example, not of course in every single aspect, but it shows that when you are not thinking about just a protocol, but an end-to-end process, uh, you work together with someone else, what you can actually achieve. And that I think uh is uh what we should strive for uh complete uh financial experiences rather than just uh a single uh solution for a single thing that might not even be a problem.

SPEAKER_03

Josh, what what could I add? I think in general it's it's what crypto really needs is stop building for the DJs. We we need to build for the world. If we look at if we look at crypto in general, it's it's such an amazing tool. It's it's it's it actually can solve so many problems we have, and it also can bring us so much benefits for for the for us, for us personally. Holding your own money is some of them, sending money from I don't know, Australia to to to Germany. It it's it's in seconds and not in days or weeks. Yeah, I I would really like to advise everyone stop building for the DJs and Djens and start building for the world. I would say start building for people who have everyday problems you can solve, like Ralph said. But I think that's something or this is something crypto really needs, because at the moment we are in a state. I won't name some blockchains, but we all know there's so much meme coin trading ongoing and it it not has any value, it's just a big casino, and this is bringing crypto in general in a bad state.

SPEAKER_04

And yeah, I think I think that's very important. Yeah, that we always stay critical with ourselves uh when we work in this industry to really provide things that are better than what is already there, um, and not uh something that is just uh let's say extending the narrative of uh speculation, of uh unnecessary stuff, um, because that is not uh why uh we are here. We are here to build better solutions that solve actual problems in a better way to have more benefits than we currently have.

SPEAKER_02

And that's exactly what you two are building. You're building a great solution for the real world, for the everyday user. And so we appreciate your work a lot. On Cardano. So, guys, Josh, Ralph, this has been a great conversation. What you've built is exactly the kind of thing that makes the case for Cardano. Real people paying for real groceries with Ada. Thank you both so much for not only being here, but for this incredible work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you for having us. What it was a great one.

SPEAKER_04

Happy to join. Yeah, same on my side. Thank you very much, uh, Jake, uh, for the invitation. And uh, of course, uh, if you want to uh try it out uh in Switzerland in Spaßos, download Ruble and uh get your next groceries with it with Ada.

SPEAKER_02

There it is. And for everyone listening, the links to DFX Swiss and to Brick Towers and to the full case study are in the show notes. If this episode was useful, be sure to share it with someone who still thinks crypto is just for trading. Until next time, this has been Let's Talk Cardano. Thanks so much, guys.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for joining us on Let's Talk Cardano. For more insights and deep dives into the world of blockchain, don't forget to subscribe and reach us at CardanoFoundation.org, where you'll find extra resources and content on all things blockchain. Leave us a review wherever you enjoy podcasts, follow us on social media, and stay tuned for more coming soon.