Philippa Langley chats to Gretel about her Life, King Richard and Following the Evidence

Good evening and welcome to this special episode where I meet the wonderful, intrepid and extraordinary Philippa Langley MBE.  Philippa talks of her childhood, and of teenage bullying; of Charles II and those skeletons in the Westminster Abbey urn; of the 2025 court case; a ‘hunchback’ conspiracy discovered by Steve Coogan; of current research, and of future plans.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Very good Friday morning, everybody. I hate you well. I'm thinking from 100%. And I will have a single hand. Many, many documentaries about it. Many interviews about it. And I think he has become a little bit of a national treasure or household name. I think many people have heard about her. If you haven't, I'm gonna leave it to you to do your research because what I don't want to do is to waste her time asking the questions she's asked over and over again about the moment that she discovered the bones and the sensation she got when she was walking in the place that made her feel that she was standing over the place where he lay. I'll leave it at that for now. Wish me luck. I am I am a little bit nervous. I'm always nervous reaching new people. Uh hopefully it'll go well. So I've arrived at this lovely little cafe, which apparently is a favourite cafe of the one I named Philippa, who I've been talking about, saying I've been excited about this for a while. I'm a little bit starstruck, but actually we've been sitting chatting, so I'm now not nervous anymore because she's she's very warm and so lovely in person, which I think you won't be surprised at because that's how she came across in all the documentaries. So thank you so much, Philippa, for meeting me. And should we just go straight to it with questions if that's alright? Absolutely, because I mean you said you didn't mind me asking this. I'd love to have a picture of you as you the the the young Philippa when you were when you were five, six, seven, when you were I I what were you like, what was your what was your family like? How did you fit in? And did you feel that you were able to have the space to explore your dreams and imagination and so on?

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Yes, I'm I'm from Northern England, North East England, Darlington. Darlington, actually, which most people will know because the train stops there. And I was very lucky in terms of my family. I have an elder brother who's 13 years older than me.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Very protective, very kind, very generous, very warm, and he's just a best friend for me. Similarly, with my sister, who's six years older than me, and so I was her doll when I was a baby. She played with me very often and looked after me and all of that. So I think I had the freedom to to be who I wanted to be, a because there was such a gap between the siblings, they were always so much older than me, and so I had this sort of separateness of being the little one who could just run wild. And I did run wild, I was feral. I was absolutely feral. I wouldn't say pet it because I was so wild, they would try to teach me, you know, sort of sensitivities, if you like. Yes, yes. Because you know, I played in the woods and I had a gang and what did your parents do, Philip? My mother, when she was working, she retired I think when my brother was about 10, I think. She retired. And she worked in an office. She was she wasn't a secretary, but she was very good with administrative stuff. She had a very good brain to categorize things and sort offices out, so they were very efficient. Right. So she had that kind of bent. And my father was an engineer. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Uh-huh. But you it's clear from actually the documentaries how good I mean, you probably don't think it, but I think you are good at all the administrative side of things, and I don't think you would have got any of that off the ground if you hadn't been good at that. So maybe you got a bit of that from your from your life.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Yes, maybe I got a little bit, but if my John was here, yeah, he he would probably laugh and say, because things like legal documents, you know, where they're very specific about this, that, and everything else, yes, they absolutely throw me. I just can't read them. Right, okay. But he trained as a lawyer.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

So if ever I have a legal document that I have to look at, you know, if you're, you know, various things that you have to do, even with mortgages and things like that. I say, can you come over and can you do this for me?

SPEAKER_01 6:08

We all need a John, don't we? We do. We do. So happy childhood and at school, you enjoyed school, did you?

SPEAKER_00 6:15

I did. I really enjoyed school. I loved school. I was very sporty. Sport was my thing. Right. There was only one slight incident when I was younger. I had we moved and I had to change school. Yeah. And I changed school when I was 13. Oh, that's true. So it's that really weird age, isn't it? It's when you're going through everything. Yeah, yeah. And the school I went to was lovely. Some of the girls from that school are now my besties, you know, they're some of my best friends. There's two or three that we keep in touch all the time and they're great. But when I first got there, the games master, the hockey master, put me on the hockey team, right? And because I was on the hockey team, a girl who was on the hockey team was then not on the hockey team. She hated you, yeah. Funny enough, she was lovely, but her friends were awful. And so I got bullied, I'd say, for about two to three months. And I remember it was the worst, I think the worst period of the life.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

There's nothing as bad. There's nothing as bad as being bullied. It's just as traumatic. And I bet you didn't tell anyone, is that right?

SPEAKER_00 7:29

No. I was just going to run away from home, and I thought that would solve it. Yeah, yeah. But then, strangely, the goalkeeper of the hockey team, who is now and became one of my best friends. Yeah. She she was someone you didn't gainsay. She was very tough, very brave. She's always been incredibly brave. And she basically approached them and said, Lay off the new girl or else she'll deal with me. Oh, lovely.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

And they laid off. Oh, lovely.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

And I actually remember when she did it, and she remembers when she did it. It was in the dining room at lunchtime. Yeah, I mean you got a vision of it, yeah. And it's like, you know, when half the school stops and looks at what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

And she screamed at them, lay off her. Well, she will deal with me.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

It's it's so odd because we don't tell anyone, and I um it's so with my own children now, I mean you know, I always think what they would tell me, but maybe they don't. There's an instinct, I think, in children just to keep it to themselves, isn't it? Absolutely. But but large, I mean it's lovely you've got all these people who've remained loyal to you. I mean, they've obviously seen you become relatively sort of it famous, infamous, whatever the word it is to use. And they've stuck it, must be lovely to have that. People you know love you for the right reasons.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Yes, and our relationships have not changed. You know, they still call me the ridiculous nicknames and things like that. Nothing has changed, and they're so lovely. Yeah, no, that's really nice. On the bullying thing, I do want to make on yeah, do you know I've met so many people, even in my little circle, once you talk about it, then you actually similar thing happened to me. Yeah. And I think it makes you it makes you stronger. It's an awful thing to go through, but it did make me stronger. Resilient. Resilient, yeah. But I think it also made me more aware. Yeah. Um, so that you can be sensitive when you meet people, so that you don't do anything that might make them feel uncomfortable. Because there's so many people that you meet, and I don't think they're aware of what they say to you and how they say it. Yeah, yeah, and can come across as quite abrasive, but demeaning and patronizing and belittling and all of that. Yeah. And so, yeah, you know, anyone going through the teenage years, you know, it's the most trying time. So you didn't go to university and what did you then do then? Well, I went to sixth form and I know I didn't go to university because I I'd been to visit my brother, who was at university in Newcastle. I went to the University of the Uh. Oh, did you go to university? Right, great. He had a great time. Oh, he was there when I think it was just as if the polytechnic was becoming the university. So it was quite some time ago.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

And I think he had a great party time there. But I remember I went to see him and my sister, and my sister went to art college in Cardiff. But they they absolutely lived in poverty, yeah, complete and utter poverty. And I don't know what it is, but I have a I have a real thing about a horror of you know living in sort of those conditions. I don't know why, I don't know where that's come from, but I just thought I cannot do university because our family. Because our family weren't wealthy, so my father couldn't say, Oh, you know, to my brother and sister, I'll I'll get you a nice flat or we'll put some money towards something. So, you know, if you go to university then you were literally living on a sixpence every day. Yeah, yeah. And I just couldn't face it.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

So I I went into the world of work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the film when it portrayed you, that whole scene where you felt frustrated, was that reality? Is that what did that if was that a correct depiction? Do you know which scene I mean?

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Yes, yeah, in a way, yes, it was, because something had happened at work where I had hoped to get onto the top team.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

And and I didn't get onto the top team, not for quite the reasons the film made out, because I didn't have my ME then. But it it was the same emotional journey, if you like. Yeah. So I I know the screenwriters Steve and Jeff, Steve Coogan and Jeff Pope, they they need to give a character arc. So you have to start in a place, go through something, and end. Yes, that's the moment, isn't it? Arc. It is, it's an arc. So you you have to see how Philippa changes. So what the story they told is all based on truth. Yeah. And they would have to tweak a couple of things, but the emotional arc that they told was accurate. It was really accurate.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

So perhaps you did actually sometimes cook with your sons, I hope, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

I did, I did, but my youngest son, yes, he remembers not being always happy that sometimes we would maybe get a takeaway because I was busy, and he really thought that it was the job, my job, yeah, to make sure meals were always on the table.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

And I think it shows courage that you allowed that to be in the film because I'm not sure how you would have liked that.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

And yeah, the fact that you didn't mind again, it just no because now he's I mean that makes him sound like the most awful little boy who's become the most awful man. But he's now such an amazing man. He he does the housework, he cleans the bathrooms, he cooks, he is a complete partner to his partner. And the other thing was as well that that Steve and Jeff, the screenwriters, they interviewed everybody separately. So they interviewed my sons completely separately from me and from John, their father, and they interviewed John completely separately because they needed to find their story, yeah, their voices. So I think that was when Rafe actually just told them that. Like I remember Steve came to me and said, Is that right? Did you? And I went, It's absolutely wrong.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

And it's nice, you could have said, Oh no, no, I've much better than no, I bished up quite a bit. Yeah, and I mean what's amazing really when you watch the I think more the documentary. I mean, it's the documentary I enjoyed the the most. I mean, obviously when people can see you, and I felt in so many scenes such tenderness towards you because so obviously so many uh the the points that you you had people around you, some were supportive, but some would be quite happy to have done it without you then. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Yes, that that's absolutely right. I mean, I I at that time was working as a screenwriter, and any screenwriter will tell you if one of the stories I wanted to to get onto the screen was Richard's historical story, based on all the contemporary sources from his lifetime. Yeah, kicking Shakespeare out the window, Thomas Moore, all the Tudor writers, you know, were going with what they said during his lifetime. Yeah, and I thought that was really important.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

A lot of happy people here, yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

There's a lot of ambiance, we like ambiance.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

I know. Because Richard's story is always told on screen via Shakespeare. Yeah. And I thought that's inherently wrong. Because Shakespeare, Morton, and Thomas Moore, they were all the same. Well, they they're all the same, so they're all Morton, weren't they? They all got it. Well, a lot of people think that the the Latin tract that Thomas Moore did was actually John Morton's. Yes. Well, we haven't been able to prove it yet, but I think some research is being done in that area. Yeah. Yeah. So, yes, so I think the reason why is when you are a screenwriter and you research a historical individual, you have to look at their actions, you have to look at everything you can find about them because you need to determine their character as much as you possibly can. So when I was at the dig, I had the man from the script in my head from the contemporary sources. So I wasn't going in search of remains, a skeleton bones. I was going in search of someone who lived and breathed and had a life. Yeah. And and you're right, because the scientists some of the archaeologists were they're just bones. Yeah. You know, they're a skelly.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Yeah, and they wanted to approach it in the same way they would have approached all bones.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yes, exactly, exactly. But I think what was lovely for me was the lead archaeologist Richard Buckley. At the end, he said this is really affecting for me because we have found a named individual. Yeah, and it makes me think differently now about exhuming human remains. The other thing that was very, I mean, this was 2012. Yeah. And whenever Richard III, long time ago. So whenever Richard III was talked about, Laurence Olivier was on the screen, he was in the newspapers. So it was never the historical man, it was always Shakespeare's Richard III. So it was always the tyrant. No one could ever get that out of their mind. No, they couldn't. And that was one of the things that was really hard behind the scenes when doing the dig.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Because a lot of them were why on earth is she going in search of a child murderer and a tyrant? Yeah.

unknown 17:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

All of that. And I and you just you try to explain that actually the contemporary sources contradict all of that story.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Like someone saying, Look, we need to do an investigation into the life of Macbeth. So let's start with Shakespeare's play, and let's look at the fact that there was probably a scene involving Bloody Hands and his wife, and everyone would say, No, you're mad, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 17:53

No, I've I've exactly that. I've spoken to a number of Scottish historians who've roared with laughter. They said, Because nobody takes Shakespeare seriously when we're studying Macbeth, so why do they do it with Richard III? It's because of the Tudors. When the Tudors died, when the Tudor dynasty died, then it people started writing. Why didn't they say this about Richard III? Because that's not what our families knew. That's not. You know, so it was immediately they were dead.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

And it and the families would have been, you know, great grandparents, I think that I worked out or you worked out, you know, really similarly.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Yeah. Um, with most of the questions I've actually said to Philippa what I'm thinking of asking her, but I didn't mention this, so I'll throw it out there. We may have to delete if you want to do a pass. Are you considering, dear Philippa, of wooing the Prince of Wales, the lovely William who's so open-minded and intelligent, so that when he's king, we can actually get those skeletons of the purported bones, DNA tested. Because that just would be a wonderful thing to do, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Yes, it would, and it's a very, very necessary thing to do because I'm I'm probably going to say something controversial here. Okay, but we've been researching, as you know, the princes for 10 years now. They, you know, 300 people, over 300 people, 301. Right. Okay. Yeah, we've got 351 actually. There we go. Yes. Um, sort of around the world, and it's been really quite remarkable. But the controversial thing that I would say is that there is no historical, archaeological, or scientific evidence for those being the remains of the princes in the tower.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

It's just a story that we tell ourselves. So, yes, I I want those remains tested, and I want tested modern DNA and everything else, and I want it done tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

And if I can facilitate any way to do that, you know, maybe with with getting William's permission or something, then absolutely I would do that. Because it was the Queen who said no, wasn't it? It was the Queen who said no, because she was very much of the opinion that when you're buried, just let them be, let them lie. But Charles trained as an archaeologist, so he may have a different opinion too. Well, I don't think now is the right time. I think they have other things to deal with at the moment, and I think you know he's not well. Yeah. And so I think let the world take a few turns, I think, first. But I think you're right because I I'm not online, I'm not on social media, but my sons are and friends are. And they they all say the same thing. They'll say you present this evidence that the princes lived on during Richard's reign, and then people will just come in and say, but oh no, they didn't because their skeletons are in Westminster Abbey. Yeah. And I I would say to people, please read the prince's book and see the research that's been done. And but I I don't think people do, I just think it's a story they know, and then they just repeat, repeat, repeat.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Because do you think if if different areas of the Tower of London were were were you know dug up, actually there would be skeletons of men, women, probably women, children, and also do you think because it was a huge community, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Yeah, and that's that's one of the things because the the archaeological level where they were found, they were found ten feet down in the foundation level of a building.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

And at that level it's well, Iron Age, but I don't we don't think it was Iron Age, but Saxon and Roman, certainly at that level.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

That was the context, was it?

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Sorry to interrupt. It is now that we know, but when they were found during the reign of Charles II, they were said to be the princes in the tower, just on a presumption. Yeah. They'd found loads of skeletons of children, but for some reason. Did they? And that's fact, is it? Oh yes, they found lots of remains of children at the Tower of London. How many? I mean hundreds or oh no, I I think one of the best books for this is Annette Carson's Richard III, The Malign King. Okay. Some of them were found in, you know, The Odd Child here and there, and some of them were said to be children, but we now know that they were actually the apes that used to live in the Tower of London. I know, I know. So and Annette Carson has looked into every single discovery and cancelled them all out.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

I'm just gonna make a note of that, actually. Yeah, because that's it's one book I haven't read. But I I didn't know. That so, yeah, because I think people are thinking that those two skeletons have been found, so of course it's going to be there.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah, and I think when they were found during the reign of Charles II, Charles II at that time was a deeply, deeply unpopular monarch. So to find the remains of two children, yeah, and then to say, Oh, we've found the murdered poor little princes, and we're going to re-bury and bury them with all the honour and dignity of royals, yeah, was a really good news story for him. But then we've got this strange fact that they didn't bury them for four years. No, there was a four-year gap. So he wasn't really that bothered about that.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Do you think that the Stuart at Delisti wanted to maintain the story that the Tudor's game?

SPEAKER_00 23:28

I think it was more about royalty and respecting royalty. Yeah. When you look back in Charles II and what was happening to him at his time, the death of his father was always front and centre of Charles II.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

And so the murder of two princes is very similar to what happened to his father in his mind. I mean, there's an argument for disrespectful.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Yes, yes, absolutely. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that was that's why it's really, really important to look at these remains in the urn in Westminster because they did find the remains of a 15-year-old boy, yeah, very near where the two children, two possibly three children, actually, there might be three in the urn, were found.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

And it as a 15-year-old boy, I think they were all jumping up and down and thinking, could this be the murdered Edward V? Yeah. But when they tested the remains, they were iron age.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

So what are your thoughts if if the DNA was came out that it was them? You'd face that if you if it came to that, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_00 24:40

I would, but I think where I sit now, I have to go with the evidence. I have to go with the hard, cold evidence in every possible way. Because even Thomas Moore, who said they were buried, been murdered by Richard III and buried beneath the stair, he then went on to say that they were then removed from the stair burial by a priest and taken elsewhere and buried in a much nicer place, a much better place. Right. But he didn't know where, he couldn't find out where. Yes. So even Moore said they're not there.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

But in Charles II's time, they forgot that part of Charles and Moore Charles Thomas Moore's story. Of that part.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Yeah. Were you happy with the film? And I know that there was a a sort of court case after it's the big palava. Are you happy? Do you give your feelings on that, and thoughts on that to put it to bed?

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Or it didn't quite put it to bed because I think Steve, Jeff, all of the team were really looking forward to their day in court. Because when they wrote the script for the Lost King, it was all based on evidence.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

You know, emails, documents, newspaper cuttings, witness statements, original footage, film footage. Yeah. It was all based on that. Yeah. So but I know that the individual who who wanted the court case to come along, Mr. Taylor, he asked for the BBC to do an inquiry as well. He wants the BBC to do an inquiry. Right. Now I know Steve and the team have said they would really like to do an inquiry with the BBC.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

And I'm now saying I would like to do an inquiry for the BBC. Yeah. But Mr. Taylor's now gone very quiet on that. So, um, because our evidence has never been presented, and I think that's what Steve in particular wants to happen.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

So you did feel that the limelight was being taken by Mr. Taylor and others, did you?

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Yes, absolutely, 100%. And I've got all the evidences to prove it. It was 2012, 2013. I think if I was doing the dig now, I think they'd be more aware, you'd be more sensitive. Yeah, things have changed. I think they have changed, but I think it was of its time.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

And and did you perhaps at that point, you know, were you were you poorly at that time? Was it difficult to maintain your strength, your mental strength and resilience?

SPEAKER_00 27:08

I had certainly I've had the ME chronic fatigue syndrome for about 30 years now, but I can manage it. But it was difficult at times when I was really tired. Yeah. And I think there's two moments in the lot in the Richard III, the King McCar park, where I get upset. One is at the grave, and then one is at when we're looking at his remains. And I think because of that, there was no context given to it. And because of that, people just say, Oh, she's just an emotional idiot. Yeah. You know, who is this woman? Silly woman. And I think when when I was filmed at the grave and got upset because, as the client in the dig, I just instructed exhumation of the hum of those human remains. Yeah. And the weight of responsibility that that was then on me because I thought this is important. We need to know who this individual is. Yeah. But what if it's just a friar or somebody important from the church who was laid to rest in medieval times, and now this woman comes along, digs them up. Yeah. You know, and to say the spine issue, you know, that was right. No, this is just when I'd instructed exclamation, they were beginning to sort of dig out the area ready. And I'm talking about Richard in terms of that a screenwriter would. I'm talking about him as a a son, a father, a brother. A human a human being. Yeah. And I get a little bit choked up because I'm suddenly thinking of a man who's in the script. And this is not to make him a saint. He is not a saint in the script, but he's a human being. Yeah. We're all convicted, we're all flawed. That's what makes us really, really interesting. And that's what I could see in Richard. You can see his flaws, you can see the convictions he did. So, so there was no context given to that. I just looked like a weepy silly woman by the graveside. And then I think when the bones were being examined, we then knew that it was a scoliosis. I've been told he had a scoliosis. It wasn't kyphosis, it wasn't hunchback. Yeah. Nothing to do with that.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Yes, we definitely try not to use that anymore now these days. But again, 2012, 2013, maybe different days. Yeah. But I think the reason I got upset was they had a specialist in scoliosis there. Yeah. Okay. And what I didn't know, and what Steve Coogan found out, was that the production team behind the scenes had said to the scoliosis specialist, call him a hunchback.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Because she said it so quickly.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Yeah. I was so surprised. Oh no, this isn't this is in the examination room. Yes, the examination room. Okay. We can talk about the discovery.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

So they were trying to create their own arc, as it was.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Yeah, because they were story line. They knew that I was focused on evidence. What do we what do we have here? How does this what does this tell us? Yeah. So they knew that if this specialist on scoriosis called Richard this awful world, hunchback, which there was no historical evidence for, that it would trigger me. And either I'd be shouting or whatever it was because I'd be infuriated. They wanted that story. They wanted that manipulation. I didn't know that. You found that out was Steve. I'm saying sorry. I found that out from Steve when he was making the film. He was told that by somebody quietly behind the scenes, so I didn't know that. But then I one thing I did know is that scoliosis experts do not use the word hunchback. They just don't. No. I don't think they even use it. If somebody's got kyphosis, they wouldn't use it.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

So then this specialist says, Oh, yes, these remains, you know, they could be those of you know a hunchback. And this is when I absolutely lose it. Yeah. Because I just thought, we're never going to get to the truth here. Shakespeare looms so large, they're so desperate for him to be the Shakespearean caricature.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

And it's fact, it's erode, it's fact, it's important.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

It's fact that all of the descriptions we have of Richard from his lifetime mention nothing abnormal at all. Yeah. So I that's when I lost it because I just thought this is impossible. I'm beating my head against a brick wall here, and sorry, yeah, so but again, there was no context. Yeah. So I'm just a weepy silly woman over a bunch of bones.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Well, I'm gonna tell you actually, I mean I I I think that I was sitting watching it with my elderly mother who passed away last year, and I was watching it with her, and and that particular scene where you got a little bit emotional, she said something like, I don't know why they've let her in. I know that she's paid for it, but you know, she's she's getting emotional. And I said, I I disagree with that. I said, you know, it none of this would have been possible without this lady, and it's not it's not okay for someone who's put in all that effort to have done all the years and years and years of res research, um, and and for the scientists to be kind of right, okay, well, thank you very much, you've done your bit, now leave it, leave it to us, you know. That that and and so that was the moment I started thinking, you know, I've I've got a lot of time for you. And it began at that point, sitting on the phone.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

But you see, I I think that it's lovely that you had that that other thought. Not very many people have, and I think they will have, honestly. I think maybe now they might, yeah, but I think then when it was first broadcast, I mean the trolling and the hatred was just it was off the scale. I wasn't on social media, but my sons were, and I know it affected them to see it because they obviously knew what I was doing behind the scenes. Yeah, yeah. Because uh because I'm not on social media, I couldn't then go on social media and tell defend yourself.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Which would have been hopeless anyway, because people have got their set views, don't they? They have. How has that changed? How have you seen that change?

SPEAKER_00 33:43

I think over time, because my research continues, I think they've I think some of them have realized actually she does do research. She might not be the silly emotional woman. And I've done talks. Yeah, you know, I've done talks. Universities and all kinds of places. So hopefully it it's just more mythmaking, yeah. They want me to be because you know, I was with a university, and the university were the important scientists, the important people, and therefore I invigled my way into their project. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

But hopefully we're changing that. Well, it's a bit like it's almost like the battle between the two counties, isn't it? Which is just everyone fighting over it. It's so unseemly and and and and degrading. It is now one o'clock. Have you got I've got time to talk about the future, or do you really want to go? No, go on.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

That is fine because I'm not in a mud hurry, so do go on.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

So, you know, again, it's not a very imaginative question, but I'd love to know your what your plans are, what you're working on, and anything juicy about what you're discovering at the moment that I can say Gretel's got a scoop, then I can not share the list, but do you know what, Gretel?

SPEAKER_00 35:03

I wish the Missing Princes project is ongoing, as you know. Yeah, but what I've done is I'm out of this, I won't be writing any more books about it. But what I'm doing behind the scenes is I'm supporting the researchers who are continuing, and there are about 12 or more researchers and teams of researchers who are doing the most remarkable lines of investigation, and they're currently ongoing, and I wish, I wish I could tell you so much about them. But what I think is they'll probably maybe do papers on them. Okay. Research papers, and I think two or three of them may even consider writing books.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

So watch this space, and it's the most remarkable thing. Everything that we are finding supports the princes living on. We have found nothing for them dying during the reign of Richard III. Nothing. Anywhere, wherever we look, nothing.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

And and I obviously you you want to respect the fact that they're discovering it. So yeah, I mean, you can't really say much more. What about nursing you then? Do you just want a bit of a quiet life now with your family and a bit of rest?

SPEAKER_00 36:16

And I got seriously ill last year.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Yeah, sorry to hear that.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

I'm taking baby steps at the moment, and taking baby steps is really lovely. I'm not pushing myself, I'm just doing bits and pieces. But in terms of Richard, there is one really exciting project that's going to be pitching shortly. And so fingers crossed that we might get that off the ground. And again, I can't say what it is. The only other thing I could say is that it looks like there is another king in a car park in terms of Henry I in Reading, and that is the Hidden Abbey project. So we hope there is going to be some archaeology taking place in Reading, if not this year, maybe next year.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

It's almost hilarious that if you want to find the bones of a king, just find a car park. Is it linked to the fact, as a serious point, that I was fascinated in the in the documentary that you were looking for a place not built on because there was a church there. Is that what it's about?

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Yes, absolutely. And it it you know, in those days, highly, highly religious times, we lost so many of our churches through the dissolution of the monasteries. Yeah. Even so, it was still highly religious. You know, everyone had was very pious, had deep faith, yeah, and sort of, you know, the concepts of sort of building on them. Yes, and the that of heaven and hell and purgatory were real. They weren't abstract concepts, they were absolutely real. So to then build on a sacred site, which is where people were buried and where God was worshipped, even though the church might not be there anymore, it it wasn't done. So generally they just became derelict or they just became wasteland or they became in there, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Gardens and then they became car parks. Yeah. And the whole thing about I can't remember his name, but the guy who guy who had his garden there. I mean, that's all fascinating. Heric, absolutely that's Herrick, yeah. And what is there now in in the car park? Is there some kind of memorial?

SPEAKER_00 38:22

There's a visitor centre, and they they were given permission to to build out over the site of where Richard was discovered, yeah, and they've done it so beautifully. Oh good. Because they've made it like a chantry chapel from the Greyfriars theater. It's beautiful. Yes. So I must admit, whenever I'm in Leicester, that is my favourite place to visit because it's it's got the chanting of monks and friars, and they've got a bit of Richard's prayer on the wall because he was a very pious, devout individual. Even for those days, he was considered extremely devout.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

But the rest of the car park, which is very odd, is now a scheduled ancient monument.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

That's wonderful. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

I didn't know that. Has that appeared anywhere as a as i i in the news or anything? I think it did when it was first given ancient monument status. I think it was in the the local news, I think in Leicester.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Yeah, yes, yeah. Um I mean, uh Laura Kareem, I mentioned her at the beginning. She's a historian who's who has got a question. But would you like to bring it to a close now? I can probably answer them briefly if that's what I'm saying. Just one question. Should we just go for one? I don't don't want to push my luck. I sadly I arrived a little bit late because of the traffic. So she's a historian who agrees with you on all the points, but she specifically wanted to know um whether there what you think of about what evidence there is about a pre-contract between Edward IV and remind me of her name, I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Eleanor Button. Yeah, very good question. I think the first thing to say is people call it a pre-contract, and it was called a pre-contract in medieval times because it was a legal definition of a first marriage. Pre-contract means marriage, yeah. It's just the way they wrote about it in medieval times. So I I call it a marriage, yeah, and there is innumerable evidences which confirm the marriage did take place. And I think John Dr. John Ashdown Hill, who was a he's not he's no longer with us, sadly, is a remarkable historian and genealogist. He was the very first person to bring Elizabeth Talbot to bring Eleanor Talbot, who became butler, to life and to look into her life and to look at this question of the first marriage. And he did a he produced a remarkable book called Eleanor the Secret Queen. Because up until that point, historians, some had argued that Eleanor didn't even exist. So John put all that to bed. But I think if you want to have a look at all of the evidence, it's in the Prince's book, but there's a lit there's a page on the revealing Richard III website called the pre-contract first marriage. Yes. Do have a look on that because we've put all the evidences together in one handy place. Yeah, they are pretty overwhelming. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

But actually, what what what struck me more than anything else was that no matter what rights Richard had to take over and become the king, what was very clear, and I don't think I had been quite aware of that since I listened to you know your book and so on. Yes, so that it it had to be a matter of the woodfills or Richard taking over, and I think he he came to the point, didn't he, when he he knew he it was either do or die, really, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Well, I think funnily enough, when you look at the timeline, you can see that Richard is the protector of the realm. Yeah, yeah. And he's working on the King's Council as head of King's Council, and the King's Council is huge, you've got 16 bishops and two archbishops on it, and they're all following the process for the coronation. Everything is being done as it was meant to be done. Yeah, and it's the coronation of Edward V. Yeah, I found that fascinating. And then you can see five days before he's due to be crowned, something happens, yeah, and it looks like some information is brought forward, yeah, and you can see the explosion of a constitutional crisis. Right. And Edward Vart Edward V's coronation is postponed until November 1483. That's the first act of the King's Council, is to postpone it. Yeah. So you know something huge is going on. Then you can see there are circling people brought and who are in close contact with Richard as protector and with others, and these are members of Eleanor Talbot's family. So you can see witnesses are coming forward because they're looking into this. Yeah. Because it looks like it was Robert Stillington, Bishop of Bath and Wells, who gave Richard this information and said Edward was married before. And this, of course, would have been a bomb going off. Yeah. And we would have had these evidences, we believe, because when Richard became king, there were numerous appendages attached to his when he was petitioned to become king by the three estates of parliament, they attached all of the appendages to his title.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

But Henry VII burnt them all. So, because obviously Henry VII was marrying the prince's sister, and he didn't want them to be seen to be illegitimate. So they were all burnt. Yeah. We are trying to see if we can find any anywhere, but at the moment we haven't found any copies. But Henry said he, by edict, he said all copies of everything have to be burnt and destroyed on pain of imprisonment. Yeah. At the moment, it looks like that was followed to the letter.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

So fascinating. And I know that you obviously can't say more about what's being unearthed, but um I'm ex so excited to see what's going to come about. Is there anything else you want to say before I let you go off for the day? Um is there anything would it be lovely just to say on? record or but if not then we'll bring it to a claim.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

I think just to your listeners, just as a general thing is just instead of you know we've we can very often do the repeat, repeat, repeat, we just press the repeat button. I think all I would say is hit the question button. Question question. And if a historian has evidence to support what they're saying, all well and good.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

But if it's just their opinion or if they're repeating later stories with no without any evidence, question them. Yeah. Say where does this come from? Why do you say that? Show me the actual documentary evidence. What sources do you have what sources do you have? Yeah. I think if we do that as the general public more often some of these stories that we keep telling ourselves will um fade. Yeah. It's I suppose it's looking out for fake news.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

Yeah. So I think you better leave it at that and I just couldn't be more grateful. I've loved meeting you. It's been a real life honour and I just want to say thank you really because on behalf of not me on behalf but you know you've you've done a service to the country that has been incredible but also more importantly you've done a service to this man. You know he now rests in peace and I'm just very proud of you and I think you're amazing.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Thank you. Thank you so much. That means a lot Gretel thank you so much. Thank you for your time I hope you listeners enjoy hearing about Kings and car parks and all of that and lost princes. Yeah I'm sure they will thank you so much.